Ashley Walters: Prison changed my mindset! How to reinvent yourself

How have you come back from your rock bottom? Ashley Walters has reinvented himself over and over again, through music, acting, directing, parenthood, prison, and addiction. In this chat with Fearne, Ashley talks through the mindset that allows him to take accountability for his actions instead of falling into victimhood, and why failure shouldn’t be viewed as an end point. He explains why you should want to be the “dumbest person in the room”, and why if you feel you want to run away from a challenge, it’s exactly the challenge you should take on. Fearne and Ashley tackle the big topics that have come out of Netflix show Adolescence, including online misogyny and male violence. Plus, Ashley reveals what his six year old daughter said to him that broke his heart and made him stop drinking... If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Kate Silverton https://pod.fo/e/2281ae Pete Doherty https://pod.fo/e/2c7657 Chiwetel Ejiofor https://pod.fo/e/2add68 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that helps pick you up when you feel it's all falling apart. Today, I'm chatting to Ashley Walters.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  When they shut that prison door on me, I was like, wow, how did I end up here? You know, in your mind, you're like, I didn't see this for myself. I'm a good person. I'm not meant to be in this situation. But actually, where I was outside of prison, I wasn't meant to be. And I wasn't willing to step away from loyalty, from some toxic sort of masculinity that was going on, because I wasn't strong enough and I was fearful of what the other side would be like.

• 1:11Fearne Cotton?

  Oh God, do you know what? Every week, right, I go to do this little introduction and I think, what have I been up to? And I genuinely can't remember anything interesting that has happened to me or anything that might be relevant to you. But do you know what? I'm gonna say, it's been one of those weeks where it's been a juggle. It has just been chasing my tail, feeling like I'm not on top of anything at all, whether it's work, stuff, I'm trying to write a new book at the moment, prepping for these podcasts, just general stuff with the kids, who's got blimmin' tennis, who's got cricket, who needs a swimming hat? It's just, it's chaos. What are we doing, guys? How are we meant to do all of this? I don't know about you, but I am still heavily relying on pen and paper and just having

• 1:55Fearne Cotton?

  a list on my kitchen counter, which is sort of fast becoming some sort of Shakespearean scroll that is eight metres long. I mean, I'm overwhelmed, all right? That's my, that's my, my thing I'm leaving you with today. I'm overwhelmed and I don't have any of the answers or coping mechanisms. But one thing I would suggest is if you are feeling overwhelmed, give yourself a break. One thing I do... If I'm at this part in my week and I'm really, really mentally just totally exploding is I listen to a podcast. I listen to all different podcasts. Obviously, I've got a lot of friends who are podcasters. So I might listen to Elizabeth Day, I might listen to Grimmy doing Dish, I might

• 2:36Fearne Cotton?

  listen to The Rest Is Politics. Like, I just love listening to other people's podcasts. So stick around and listen to mine because this will give you a brain break and you can think about nothing and just listen to someone who is absolutely fascinating. Today, I am having a chat with Ashley and I wanted to have this chat because he's obviously been one of the people leading some incredibly important conversations around male violence and online misogyny recently, thanks to the Netflix show Adolescence, which has obviously been bloody massive. And he's had a huge career as a director and recording artist. Obviously, if you're my age, you'll very much remember him from So Solid Crew,

• 3:18Fearne Cotton?

  who I loved. But I wanted to get to know what makes him really tick. He's written about his upbringing and his whole life, really, in his new book, Always Winning. And he's clearly always had incredible resilience and drive. God, we talked about so much. And, you know, this is one of those episodes, I could have chatted to Ashley for four hours, not exaggerating. I barely scratched the surface, yet he manages to tell some incredibly powerful stories in this episode. He talks about some big stuff. He talks about what he learned from being in prison, which was obviously a time for him where he lost absolutely everything, but managed to reframe it and get a lot of positivity

• 4:01Fearne Cotton?

  out of that situation. He also talks a lot about not falling into victimhood and not pointing fingers and blaming others, but being accountable to really help get focused on what you want in life and to really keep moving forwards when you've got a goal, rather than feeling blocked by other people or your own bad luck or adversity. You know, he's not let any of this stuff stand in his way. And we also talk about self sabotage, specifically addiction. This is something that he's not talked about a lot publicly, but more recently, he's started to get really brave, I would say.

• 4:43Fearne Cotton?

  In talking about some pretty uncomfortable stuff and some times that have been really, really tricky for him, and I'm so grateful that he's doing so because I think what he's saying is very, very powerful.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 5:29Speaker 04

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• 6:00Speaker 05

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• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:58Fearne Cotton?

  Hello Ashley.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 6:59Fearne Cotton?

  It's so good to see you.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  You too.

• 7:01Fearne Cotton?

  You good?

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, very good, very good.

• 7:03Fearne Cotton?

  You've had one hell of a year already.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's been a rollercoaster.

• 7:08Fearne Cotton?

  Not even halfway through and it's just, it's been relentless.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  It's been pretty overwhelming to be fair at times. But I'm enjoying it.

• 7:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I bet.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can't complain.

• 7:18Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I've got to start by saying congrats on adolescence because it's just been, it's not only made a huge impact just for people that love watching great drama, but it's had a political impact, it's changed how we view the world, I would say. Culturally, it's made a huge impact. What's that like from your point of view, being so in the thick of it, not knowing what the reception of it would be? How have you found that?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Good. I feel like it's really good. It's always, you always set out, right, to, to do more than just make an entertaining show. Like especially when you're talking about something quite specific, right? So you want to create conversation. I just, I guess none of us knew how much conversation it would create. And it's like the gift that keeps on giving. It's like, it's not slowing down anytime soon, so.

• 8:08Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  But that's always good. And I think for me, I mean, the, the biggest thing I've taken from it is kind of how it's affected me and my family. It's very rare that I will kind of be in a show and then kind of learn huge things about myself afterwards.

• 8:27Fearne Cotton?

  Like what? What's, what's?

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Just as a parent, just as a parent. I was just like, I realised like I'm a quite a, I've been a bit too, what's the word? Liberal as a parent. Like I've been a bit too easygoing, I guess, with my kids, with devices, screen time, you know, stuff like that. Like I've been, you know, I don't think I understood how dangerous those things can be sometimes. So there are a lot of changes that happened in my house. You know, a lot of conversations between me and my wife, just about kind of where we're going with kind of them and. How much time they spend on on screens and on their iPads and whatever. You know, the stuff that they're doing on there as well that we maybe felt was like quite harmless.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Actually, you look deeper into it and you're like, wow, that could lead to this and that could lead to that. So. You know, those sort of changes have happened and that's kind of been the biggest thing for me, really. And I guess like, I feel like that is part of why it's become so big because. Before that, I felt scared to have those conversations with my kids. I felt scared, I'm not scared, but more like I didn't want to make them stand out. Now, you know, their friends are doing it, so it's like, it's fine, right? And you know, I feel like what adolescence did was like say to parents, okay, you can all have the conversation now.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Like, here's evidence and proof of like the extreme of where it can go if you're not going in their room and checking on them and whatever. And I feel like parents all around the world have kind of gone, whew, okay. Now we can discuss this openly without feeling like crappy parents, do you know what I mean?

• 10:13Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, what a positive shift because it is, it's a hard conversation to have, especially when it's teenagers. And like you say, you don't want them to be a social pariah and not be communicating with their friends in the way that everybody else is. But I think having, you know, it's like the third most viewed Netflix show of all time. It's like, it's global, like you say, the impact has been huge. So I think to have that collective conversation, it feels powerful, you know? I guess moving forward, does that put a pressure on you to always have that angle on projects you're working on? Where you know there'll be perhaps social change or cultural change, or is that just too big of an idea?

• 10:48Speaker 02

  It's a big idea, but um but there is a slight pressure. There is like, I do like read scripts now, kind of like, well, what's the angle?

• 10:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, what's the point of this?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  How is this gonna help the world?

• 10:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Um, but you kind of have to put that to the back of your mind. I think if we was, we was thinking about that. Having that impact on the world whilst we were making it, I don't think it would have been as good of a show. Like, you always have to go into it trying to make an entertaining project. Um, and let the rest be God's work, do you know what I mean?

• 11:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's so interesting because I think, I guess whether it's music or TV or anything creative, you don't know. That you're necessarily making something that's gonna be big, that's gonna have that alchemy. Did you get a sense of that? Because it's not just, you know, it's got to have, there's so many variables. It's got to have a great script, it's got to have a great team director, it's got to have the most sensational actors who can bring that story to life. Do you get a sense of that when you're in the midst of it?

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do. You kind of, I mean, we knew that it was going to be a great show. Like, there was no doubt about what sort of show it was going to be. I've worked with Stephen Graham for, for many, many years. Jack Thorne's work is like undeniable. Philip Barantini, I mean, you could, you only have to see Boiling Point to know, do you know what I mean? How good he is at what he does. So it was like the combination was already, already there. Erin, throwing Erin in the mix. I mean, Cheyenne casting. So she's been around for, you know, since I was like a young'un kind of casting for stuff. So like all of that, all of the, the parts were there. So and on set, it was such a, it was probably the most peaceful, sort of beautiful,

• 12:29Speaker 02

  spiritual sort of set I've ever been on, really. You know, there was a lot of like moments together, kind of outside of the work, where we all just connected, you know, there was a lot of friends on that set. Like real friends. And I say this because a lot of people don't understand. You go into, when you're kind of an actor, you're making, you're making films, you're making TV shows. You can literally jump into a job, like, and in the first week, you know, you'd be doing a sex scene with your, the leading lady or whatever, that you don't know.

• 13:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  You don't know these people, right? And you spend like three intense months with them, like every day, more than you're with your family, and then you never see them again.

• 13:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  You know, you're out and you're on to the next one. And that's kind of your life. And it's very rare that you kind of get onto a set where everyone loves each other and everyone knows each other from pre- previous jobs and stuff like that. But that's what this was like. It was like. A bunch of my mates.

• 13:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean, that I got to work with. So there was genuine love between everyone anyway. And I think that comes across on screen, you know.

• 13:39Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:40Fearne Cotton?

  Like, there is that sort of papal magic about it. And I guess also the notion of having one shot, that you're almost combining that element of theatre that, you know, you guys have all got to be on your A game and you're in this together. It's like a proper team effort that I guess brings you together even closer, maybe.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, I mean, the stress of it.

• 13:59Fearne Cotton?

  I can't even imagine.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Brings you together.

• 14:00Fearne Cotton?

  I'd shit myself.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was. I was, I'm not gonna lie. Like, most days, I was like, I literally, I say it all the time, I was like, going home, going back to my apartment, crumbling as I got out of that cab, as I shut that door, falling on the floor, crying. And then, once I finished crying and talking to my wife and her trying to pick me up, script's open, and I'm on that script until like, early hours of the morning, because I just don't wanna drop the ball.

• 14:27Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  I don't wanna be part of the problem. Do you know what I mean? It was a lot of pressure. Um, but funnily enough, it was like, after I, I spoke to Phil a few times, Philip, and he was like, you need to stop caring so much. Do you know what I mean? That, he was like, you're, you're, you're taking it too, too seriously. Like, let go of it. You know, and just go with it. And actually.

• 14:52Fearne Cotton?

  It's hard though, isn't it, when you love something?

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it was tough. It was tough to just, you've got to remember to listen in those sort of situations. Every take was different. You know, if you're thinking about your lines and how you're gonna say them, you're not listening. You know, you're not listening to what the other person's saying. And when you're just in it, and you're present, and you just are the character, and you're just going on that journey. And whatever happens, you just go with it. That's when it became a lot easier.

• 15:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  And a bit more fun for me.

• 15:22Fearne Cotton?

  Although I understand that that feeling of pressure is not always fun. Like you say, you're on your knees, you're crying, you know, you, you want this to go well. You don't wanna be the person that drops the ball. It does seem, from reading this book that you've written, that I loved reading, I learned a hell of a lot from it. You do thrive under pressure. That seems to be something that's quite motivating for you.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I've grown up. Under pressure. You know, I was speaking to someone the other day. I was like, from day dot, my mum has been saying, from when I can remember, you've got to work harder than everyone else.

• 15:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  You know, you're a young black boy from southeast London. You know, you're never gonna get everything the same way as your white counterparts. It's never gonna be this. It's never gonna, you know, work harder, work harder, work harder. And that's the kind of the regime that I was under. Listen, I'm I'm I'm thankful for her being so, um, putting so much pressure on me because I wouldn't be sitting here now today if she didn't. But um, at the time, it was tough. And at the time, there were sometimes I didn't understand why, do you know what I mean? I had to do so much. But yeah, I mean, that's, I've grown up under pressure and really and truly, nothing has ever come easy. You know, so actually, when things do come easy now, I'm like, I'm a bit wary

• 16:38Speaker 02

  about them. I'm like, you know, when someone's just giving you money or just like, I was like, well, what are the um,

• 16:45Fearne Cotton?

  Where's the pain?

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:46Fearne Cotton?

  Where's the suffering?

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Or what's gonna come with this?

• 16:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  What are gonna be the consequences of this? Um, and it's true, you know, most things that come easy are not worth having too long anyway. I mean, you don't have them too long anyway. And you don't appreciate them the way that you should. So I've always like felt pressure was important, but there are still moments where I'm given a pressured sort of situation and I'm reluctant in the beginning, but I always end up jumping out of the plane.

• 17:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  I always end up.

• 17:16Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's apparent in this book, you know, you dedicated, your mum is one of the people that you dedicate the book to, as well as your wife and your children. And she does seem to be this consistent person in your life who has some, you know, I think we've all got that person in mind who in, maybe not proving ourselves to, but we're accountable to that voice in our head constantly.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:36Fearne Cotton?

  And it was really fascinating reading about certainly your younger years where you definitely had this determination. I'm not sure many other kids had like, maybe if you're lucky enough to find something you really know you love early on, a sport or a hobby, you might have that drive, but I think it's quite rare when you're a young kid, but you were actively, constantly trying to move towards your goals, have a better life for yourself, do the thing that you were passionate about, which I do, I do think is unusual. And I guess the other, the sort of jarring element for you growing up was, you know, you had that, you wanted to succeed, you wanted to do well, but then you were also growing up in an environment where violence was commonplace, guns were commonplace, there were gangs, there were, there was threat in your life that you could feel.

• 18:21Fearne Cotton?

  How, how did you navigate, I guess, those two quite different parts of yourself?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Role play, acting. I mean, that's where I developed my skill, I guess. There was like, there was two different Ashleys. There was like, you know, the streetwise Ashley that understood where to be, what time to be there, who to be around, I guess. And then there was, you know, Sylvia Young Theatre School, Ashley doing tap ballet and whatever else on the weekends. And I kept those lives completely separate, you know, because there was a time where what I do now that I can celebrate and talk about openly, I couldn't back in the day, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't seen as, I guess, masculine or, you know, like the thing to do at the time. So

• 19:13Speaker 02

  I separated the two and my mum was very good at inspiring me without signposting that that's what she was doing. It was like a holiday every year, you know, getting me out of the environment. So it's Spain, it's like, you know, not far places, but Dorset, you know, the countryside, like just taking me different places and books, you know, putting books in front of me, um, to, I guess, to develop my imagination and for me to understand that there was more than just my environment and. It probably seems really like small and simple to people, but especially then,

• 19:55Speaker 02

  when we didn't have the internet, when we didn't, we wasn't able to see out of our kind of immediate bubble. Um. It was important to have those kind of references, to believe that there was more to life than the place that you saw every day. Um. So I had a real strong understanding of like, there's a world, there's not just Peckham. Like, there's a world, there's other stuff going on, there's other cultures, there's other ways of life. However, I I clearly understood that before I even left the home, right? And I I noticed that a lot of my friends didn't get that, like, they had already made a decision without knowing it, that this was it for them.

• 20:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Um. So that was before I understood what I wanted to be or what I wanted to do. It was just like, I wanted more. And then even going to Silver Young, like, a lot of my, a lot of my peers there, a lot of my kind of um counterparts were like white, middle class, came from really amazing homes in my eyes, um and they liked me. So I was like, I would go and stay over at people's houses. You know, these townhouses in West London, like four-story townhouses, with a kitchen in the basement and stuff like that. And I was, that was fascinating to me. And it never made me jealous. It just gave me like this sort of hunger, like, I'm gonna have that.

• 21:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Uh. How do I, how am I gonna get that?

• 21:15Fearne Cotton?

  But this is the mindset, you know, the book is all about this mindset, having a winning mindset. And it's, and that's not to be in any way reductive of the stuff you've gone through that's been really fucking hard and stuff that has tripped you up and these big road bumps in life, but you have somehow managed to always have that mentality, maybe go back to that childhood mentality of

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 21:36Fearne Cotton?

  having hope and having optimism and aspirations, you know, it's it's not always a given, I think, especially when you're down on your luck and things are going badly.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 21:46Fearne Cotton?

  It's so easy to lose sight of that. Why do you think you've been able to always click back into that sort of mindset?

• 21:53Speaker 02

  It's tough to say, but I guess, you know, the idea of like always winning is just about. It's like, it's not like you never lose, cause like I've lost a lot, but I've learnt from losing. Like, I always say, like, the, the, the biggest entrepreneurs, the most successful business people have failed several times. We just don't hear about it. And the reason why they're so good now is because of those failures. So, I've, I, I've just learnt to not look at failure as like the end. You know, actually, it's quite good for me. You know, it's good to drop on my face and, and, and, and feel pain because

• 22:37Speaker 02

  for one, I remember I don't wanna do that again, you know, and, and I can see where the bump in the road was and look back at it and work, work out how to navigate it. And that's all my life has, has been. And that's all, I mean, essentially what the book is, is about. That's what Always Winning is about. It's like, let's not, let's embrace those bad times, cause they've all going to be a part of your journey. And actually, more importantly, the journey is the most fun part.

• 23:03Fearne Cotton?

  And you're still on it?

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I'm still on it. Like, it's still going.

• 23:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  You know, and, and I always, whenever I get somewhere that I've wanted to get to, I'm like, nah, this is.

• 23:13Fearne Cotton?

  There's, there's another one.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  This ain't that great. What's next? Do you know what I mean? You're always trying to get to the next level. Actually, the most fun I've had is the people I've met on the way there, you know, the trials, the tribulations, the growth, like, feeling like, wow, I got over that, I got through that, whatever. That is the most important part of it. Like, the actual win, the actual trophy, to me anyway, personally, is never that great.

• 23:36Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  When I get it. It's like, okay, fine. Like, you know, I enjoyed the other bit of it. And, um, and yeah, so that's what I kind of, I hold on to. Um, and that's like, alluding to what you were saying before, like, you know, just about like embracing those painful moments when they come up or whatever, my memory goes, yeah, this is good for you.

• 23:59Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  This is, this is good. This is, don't run away from this. When you feel like you don't wanna do something, you should be trying to do it.

• 24:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  That's why, that's what happens. When I get a, a script come through and I read it and I'm like, this is an amazing script, but this is gonna be hard. How am I gonna play this character? The accent, the, the physicality there. It's just so much to do. And your mind's going, run away, run away, run away. Go and do Top Boy again. Just do something easy. Do something what you know you're comfortable. Like you have to fight against that feeling. You have to let your fear push you forward.

• 24:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it's for long. So I think also people assume that when you get to a certain level of success or you've had these accolades and achievements, that the failure is perhaps less or that you feel it less. Whereas I think, you know, you just continue to have moments of success and failure constantly. It might look to the outside world like you're on this ascent, but actually it's no less painful. And I absolutely resonate with what you're saying. You know, I've had big periods of like low mental health or everything seemingly just going completely tits up. And at the time, I'm hating it. I don't want to be in that. I don't want to be going through that. But I can look back and go, oh my God, I wouldn't be doing any of this without having been through that.

• 25:17Fearne Cotton?

  And I wouldn't have any of the resilience that I've hopefully built up or hopefully a bit of wisdom that's stuck along the way. You know, it's imperative and your life has been this sort of like all of us, you know, this sort of undulating wave of of ups and downs. And I think when you can get to a place and you can appreciate, not necessarily like celebrate, but appreciate the bits that have been really shit, that's where you start to learn from it. I mean, you've had some big lows and some public ones and, you know, you've talked about it a lot before, but being in prison is a big deal. You were there for seven months. Looking back on that period, a period that could define your life very negatively forever if you let it.

• 26:00Fearne Cotton?

  You have managed to turn that into a positive and gain a lot from that period of your life. What do you think has impacted you positively from that experience?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Well, I feel I feel like that was like, that was a higher power moment for me now. Now I look back on it. I don't think I understood that at the time, but there's been several moments throughout my career where my higher power has done for me what I wasn't willing to do for myself. And at the time, when that's happening.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  I get very disturbed by like what's going on around me like when I when I ended up when they shut that prison door on me. I was like, wow, like, how did I end up here? You know, in your mind, you're like, I didn't see this for myself. Or maybe I did, but like, I'm a I'm a good person. Like, I I I'm not meant to be in this situation. But actually, where I was outside of prison, I wasn't meant to be. And I wasn't willing to step away from loyalty, from friends, from brotherhood, from some toxic sort of masculinity that was going on. Like, I wasn't willing to step away from it because I wasn't strong enough.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  And I was fearful of what the other side would be like or whatever. So my high power took it away from me, you know, said, all right, you you're not gonna do what you you need to do for yourself. There you go. And let me sit down by myself. And it was only in that moment I was like, wow. You know, there's a lot of like my gran, my gran's a very spiritual person, very, very religious. And she would never send me any letters talking about how are you or whatever. She'd just send me passages from the Bible, just different passages. To the point that eventually I started to read, because in the beginning I was like. I'm not reading that. I'm not reading this. It's ridiculous. Um, but eventually, like, you you know, you got time on your hands.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  I started reading and just started understanding kind of this was meant to happen to me. And I think at that point, I started to take advantage of the position I was in, you know what I mean? I was like, I stopped feeling sorry for myself. Stopped kind of wondering why I was there or whatever and said, okay, well, what am I gonna do while I'm here? How do I get positivity out of this? You know, I hadn't I hadn't passed my GCSEs in school. I did pretty well, but I didn't do as good as I wanted to in my English and Maths. They were offering GCSEs in there. I took that. I started working in the kitchen. I did a food hygiene course. Do you know what I mean? I was like, let me try and better myself whilst I'm in this environment.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  And let me sit down and analyze where it went wrong. You know, and I quickly realized like a big part of why I was there was because of the company that I was keeping. Um, and no one in my circle, I looked around me and no one in my circle, I actually wanted to be like. I I didn't wanna be like any of these people, like, I was more scared of them than anything else, do you know what I mean? It was like, and I realized I had to like, I if I put my, I needed to put myself in a situation where I'm the dumbest sort of person in the room, right? Like where I like, all the people around me,

• 29:32Speaker 02

  I'm aspiring to, do you know what I mean? Like, I I wanna copy what they've done, I wanna be like them, I wanna get to where they are. And that changed my whole mindset. That was like a big thing for me. And that came through books, that came through reading like The Long Walk to Freedom, Nelson Mandela, um, I read um, The Scholar by uh, Courtney Nuland. There was little gems in those, those books and my granny's letters that really made me understand about that kind of like how I could change things for me um, immediately. Um. Um, so coming out of prison, that was the first thing I did. I became a recluse to other people, but to me, I was like reevaluating what I wanted to do.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  And I slowly but surely just distanced myself from the world that I knew. And this is not to say, look, a a lot of those people that were around me at the time, I have nothing against them, I still talk to them now. You know, I take relationships for what they are, but um, but I had to do that for me, you know, to change, to change my life. So that, that for me had a huge impact in that way, a positive impact. So I can never look at prison as a bad time. No. Anymore, you know, it's kind of like something that had to happen, it was like a. It was a cocoon moment, you know, and I like I I came out as a butterfly like when I came out there. I just had a different understanding of myself and the world.

• 30:58Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's a really scary thing to distance yourself from. You know, we all create these little families for ourselves, people, whether they're good for us or not, but we wanna belong. That's all we want. We wanna feel like we belong and that we are connecting with other people. And that we're loved or supported and even when we know in toxic relationships, you know, that things aren't right. We we have that loyalty because we feel that sense of belonging. To remove yourself, and I know obviously being in prison, you don't have any choice, but coming out and still choosing to press reset, start again, and not have that family, that sense of belonging, that's scary.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is scary. It's scary. That was the first time I'd ever done it.

• 31:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  I realise that now because I was really stuck in a like a cycle of like. I felt fear, I felt I needed the people there, I needed, you know, there was a lot of crutches and stuff like that going on. Now I reset in a second, man.

• 31:54Fearne Cotton?

  Do you?

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I'll reset. I'll reset tomorrow if I need to. I'm done. Yeah, it's like, no, this is not working. Bye. Like, I've got I've got used to that, that process. You know, my wife, we've moved a few times in our life, right? And she's like, she's always concerned about like the white goods. Do you know what I mean? I I know this is really weird, but like, just little things that I'm like.

• 32:21Fearne Cotton?

  It'll be fine.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it'll be fine.

• 32:23Fearne Cotton?

  I love that it's the white goods. She's worried about that fridge. What are we gonna do in it?

• 32:27Speaker 02

  We've got an outhouse, which has got like seven freezers in it, five microwaves, four washing machines. And she's always like, well, yeah, we can give that to the one of the kids and that. You're a hoarder.

• 32:38Fearne Cotton?

  She's hoarding microwaves. This is so good. This is so good.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's great.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 33:18Speaker 04

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• 34:19Speaker 05

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• 34:54Fearne Cotton?

  There's something in not falling into victimhood, which we've all done. Everyone's done it. I probably did it yesterday. Like, there's always a moment where you go, "That's not fair. This shouldn't be happening to me." You know, blame, you point fingers at other people. And I think when you can catch yourself and you know you're doing it, then you've got the chance to change. And that's where you can change, you can change your whole life from that mindset. But, you know, obviously for you, that was an extreme wake-up call for you to have to do that. But it seems to have set you on a path where there's no other option. There's no victimhood. It's like, "I'm accountable for me, and this is how I want to do things."

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the key word, is accountability. And this is not to say, "Look, I'm no, I'm not perfect." So there are moments where I'm like, the victim.

• 35:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we all do it.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  And I'm complaining, and I don't understand why it's going the way it's going, or whatever. And you're right, you catch yourself. But I think it gets easier, it gets quicker, it gets more natural for you, the more that you do it. Like with anything else, do you know what I mean? It's like, I say to my kids, you know, they're always complaining about things happening quick, and "Why can't I just learn this now?" And whatever. And it's like, well, it didn't, nothing happens like that. I was like, "How long have you been, you know, swimming?" You know, my kids have been swimming since they were babies. So my youngest two are like 10 and 8, and they're great swimmers now, because we started them swimming early. But I'm like, "You don't just jump in the water and swim." You know,

• 36:27Speaker 02

  there's a process. You have to learn it. So why don't you understand that that same rule applies to learning Spanish? That same rule applies to learning anything else. It takes time. You have to put effort and time into it. And these things are important. And you kind of, you know, it's quite scientific, like what goes on in your head and the kind of, the neural pathways that you've kind of consistently been using. So something happens, you're used to doing something, it goes, do you know what I mean? It goes down the same path.

• 36:59Fearne Cotton?

  You do the same old shit.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  You do the same thing all the time. And... The more you start stopping yourself and going, ah, no, I'm not gonna do that. Like, month six, it's gonna happen a lot quicker. It's gonna be a lot more natural to you. And that's just what's going on, and I guess what's been going on for me. And everyone can start that, like, everyone, you know, this is not just me that can do any of these, make any of these changes. It's important for everyone to kind of know that they have that ability. And that's why I wrote the book, because I was like, let me be really honest about why you think I'm so good at what I do. Because I'm no different than you. I may have just had a different plan, right?

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Or a different set of notes in my iPhone or whatever of how I was going to get somewhere because I understood something. But you can do it as well, in whatever walk of life that you're in.

• 37:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, this is the book that you wanted to read as a kid. Like, this is the book that you could have benefited from.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 38:00Fearne Cotton?

  I think so much of your story and your resilience and and also the different iterations of your career have come from the patience that you've just talked about. Knowing that things aren't gonna happen overnight, that you've got to put the work in, that you've got to be dedicated to that goal that you've got ahead of you. And we were talking before we started recording, I met you a long time ago in So Solid Crew, when you came on Top of the Pops. We probably saw each other a few times around that era. And, you know, you guys were the biggest thing on the scene at the time. Garage music was everywhere. You were the pinnacle. You were it. And, you know, you, you have to, you've constantly reinvented yourself. And then, you know, you start, your acting career, you're back on the first rung of the ladder. You've got to start all over again. No one cares that you're in So Solid Crew.

• 38:44Fearne Cotton?

  This is a film set and you need to learn your craft, earn the respect of the people around you. How much are you still willing to do that now? Because, you know, can you get any, I mean, I know you said you've always got these goals. You've always got new things you wanna do, but that takes a lot to keep reinventing, to keep pushing yourself in these new areas to be the best best you can be.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's the same as what we were talking about before. It's like, I'm trying to be in uncomfortable spaces because I wanna grow. Like, the, the whole thing around acting for me was like, I've never enjoyed acting. Like, I've never, I, it's, it's so. It's uncomfortable, but more than that, it's awkward for me. Because I have anxiety. I hate being in front of cameras. This is great. Yeah, it's like, I look for all the casting directors, still hire me, please. But, um, but yeah, so I've always like, you know, I get before I'm doing a show, I get scared.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  I'm like, working with other people and being in like rooms of a lot of people, whatever. It's difficult for me. Yeah. Like, no one understands how much of a struggle. Like, I see some other actors, they love it. You know, they love that energy and whatever. I'm really, I get real kind of anxiety around those situations. So to get up and go to work every day for me is difficult. And then also acting, it became, I know the process so much. I know the process so well. And I think I was doing, you know, doing Top Boy. I love Top Boy, so I don't want people making comments about like that I'm disrespecting the show. I love the show, but it got boring for me, like playing that same character.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  You know, I started when I was like twenty seven or something, playing Deshane and finished nearly at forty years old. Like, it was a long time. And, and I lost a lot of love in that, in throughout that process for, for acting. So I decided I wanted to become a director.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? Because I would go back to the first rung again. No one didn't give a crap about who I was as an actor. It was like, no, you're still starting from the bottom. We're still not paying you any money. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you've got to pay your dues. Other, that directing community was still like,

• 41:11Speaker 02

  oh, here we go. Oh, yeah, another actor trying to be like one of us. Do you know what I mean? You're in that space again. Um, and I love that. Yeah. Secretly, you know, I'm not shouting it from the rooftops, but I'm like humble. Like, yeah, I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna kiss ass, I'm gonna follow these people and go to these events and whatever. And I really, I'm really enjoying being in that space.

• 41:35Fearne Cotton?

  It's learning, isn't it? It's like, I, I feel the same. I need to constantly be learning and constantly be, I guess constantly sort of shitting myself, like that feeling you talk about of the anxiety of doing your job. I certainly have it. I have this deep sense of relief. I almost look forward to it. At the end of a day like this, where I've got two podcast recordings. I'm, I'm engaged and I'm loving it in the moment, but beforehand, I'm like, I want, I want this to go well more than anything. I'm desperate for this to go well. I wanna be on my A game. I don't wanna feel anxious or awkward in it. And then the end of the day, the relief is the best feeling ever. And sometimes I wonder, is that enough just feeling relieved? Like surely I need to get to a place where there's

• 42:17Fearne Cotton?

  more comfort. But I think it's a delicate balance between comfort and complacency. And I've definitely been there, like when I was at Radio One. Again, like with your top boy, I loved Radio One, very grateful for that experience, but I was complacent. It was easy to do that show. I knew I could do it with my eyes closed and I don't like that feeling. But I think it's hard to get, what's the middle ground? There's like shitting yourself or complacency. Where's that sweet spot? It's hard.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  There is, I mean, there is a balance, there is a balance. But I do feel like it's natural for us to kind of get somewhere and at some point feel like we need a new

• 42:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  challenge. Like, who says that we should just stay in the same place forever?

• 42:58Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  You know, I'm like, I ju- I just started learning Spanish like six weeks ago.

• 43:02Fearne Cotton?

  Have you?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm, I'm terrible still, but um, I've had six weeks of real.

• 43:10Fearne Cotton?

  That's just for fun. This is not for a job.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  No, this is just because I'm like.

• 43:13Fearne Cotton?

  Why not?

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, you know, I wanna challenge my mind.

• 43:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  I've always wanted to learn another language.

• 43:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  So why not? But it's the, I mean, that's part of it. It's just, it's part of like just challenging yourself and pushing yourself as much as you can. I think. You know, I feel like successful people have that in common.

• 43:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  You know, that that want to always to the minute you start to feel comfortable, the minute you start to feel comfortable, that's when it feels really awkward for me. That's where it feels like, you know, I'm sure when you started at Radio One, when you first got in front of that desk.

• 43:52Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, terrifying.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Or whatever, it was terrifying. I mean, I actually did a, what do they call it, a pilot?

• 43:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  For one extra, one of these many, many years ago. And that was like, I mean, I was terrible.

• 44:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I was. When I started, we all were.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  It was the most difficult thing.

• 44:11Fearne Cotton?

  It's so hard.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? I've ever done so. And I saw you, you achieved something real great, like to go from that uncomfortability, do you know what I mean? Being in that space to at the end of it, where you're like, I could literally kind of just dial this in.

• 44:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  If I wanted to. So it's, I guess it's done.

• 44:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. And then you've run a new challenge. I totally agree. I mean, in the book, you talk a lot about your relationship with self sabotage as well, which again, I think is a massive block for so many people who have got goals, dreams, aspirations, is that they, they fall before the first hurdle, which is that self sabotage of, you're a piece of shit, you can't do this, imposter syndrome, everything that comes with it. Where are you at with that today? Because it's, it's taken on different forms in your life as well. It could have been, you know, you've talked about in the book, lots of different moments on set where you don't feel like you've been at your absolute best and you've been called out for it. You also talk about addiction problems, which is something you're perhaps just comfortable talking about now, but hadn't been previously.

• 45:11Fearne Cotton?

  That seems like a form of self sabotage that took its hold more than you would have liked.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I feel like that, that the addiction for me was more.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  About like trying to be able to be someone, right? To to be the person that could perform. So actually, and this is gonna be really strange, and I don't want people to take it the wrong way, but it was needed for a period of time. You know, I the the imposter syndrome within me was so great that I wouldn't have turned up. Hmm. If I wasn't drunk or high, like sometimes, you know? It got really bad towards the end and it took me the other way. So actually, I did stop turning up. Do you know what I mean? Because it was that bad for me, because I didn't want people to see me in such a bad way. But in the beginning, it was great.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  You know, a lot of addicts will tell you this, it worked for a long period of time for me. And that's why people didn't know. They did like because it was it was helping me, it was aiding me, it was giving me the strength and the confidence to speak to people that I was shit scared of speaking to, to be in rooms that I felt I didn't deserve to be in. It gave me all those things for a long period of time until it didn't. But it was never, you know, one that that's one thing I realized as soon as I got help. It was never about the drink or the drugs, you know, for all the time that I was kind of trying to stop doing it. I was always blaming the drink and drugs. I was always like, why can't I stop? It's got a hold of me, you know what I mean?

• 46:51Speaker 02

  You're like, that's I saw it as like such an evil thing. But no, when you think about it, there's loads of people in this world that can drink and take drugs and leave really decent lives, lead really decent lives. I had a problem within me from before those things ever came into my space. And that was my self belief. You know, it felt like that, like, and this is, it's probably quite cliche, but it felt like. Everyone else had a memo or got a memo that I just didn't receive. Like, everyone else had the manual to life. I didn't get it. So I'd be in spaces, I'd be like, how the fuck are they like? How can they talk to each other like that?

• 47:37Speaker 02

  How come they take each other's numbers and maintain relationships after? Because I just didn't know how to do any of like the normal stuff. Like, it just wasn't, it wasn't, I just didn't have it in me. And the minute I found drink, the minute I found drugs, the minute I realised that that wasn't frowned upon in my circle and where I worked.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  I was like, I was gone, you know, I was like, I can fit in now. Like, and now I'm part of the gang. Actually, I'm the leader. You know what I mean? I was like the life of the party. I'm the one getting everyone out. I'm making the moves. But addiction has a funny way of like, you know, it wants to isolate you. It will eventually isolate you and that's what happens, you know. All of the, the yet's that I said, you know, well, how can I be a drunk? I'm not sleeping on a park bench yet, you know. I'm not begging any or stealing anyone's money. So how can I be a drug addict yet? You know, the minute like those things started to creep into my lifestyle.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Sometimes even when I didn't have to do any of that stuff. The problem was, you know, it was evident. It was like, it was there. And, um, and I think the, the clincher was family. You know, um, destroying the people around me. You know, not just hurting them, but destroying the people around me. Because I had taken control. Of everything that had happened, you know, when we were just talking about higher power and I was very spiritual before, you know, understanding that. Okay, maybe this happened for a reason, or the way I got into Soul Solid, all those things, I was able to articulate about those things like.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  That was, that was divine, that was like um, universal law, like, I started thinking about it. I knew I was a fan of the group before I was in the group. And I said, I'm one day I'm gonna be in that group and I would say that to myself every day and I would, do you know what I mean, and I gradually got closer to it. All of that stopped when drugs and drink came into my life and I became God. You know, this was down to me, this is all happening because of me, you have a car and a house because of me. You have, you mean those clothes on your back because of me, you know, and I, and that's the person I became to my kids. To my wife, you know, to my mum, and yeah, that was a sad time, it was, it was, you know.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  It was a very difficult space for everyone else to be in, um, and I wasn't seeing it. I wasn't seeing it, you know, I was turning up to, to family events and turning up to places and people wouldn't talk to me. You know, they'd be like, hi, you know, kind of walk past and I'm like, what the hell is wrong with you? It's only now I'm sober and I've sat down with those people and they feel free to talk to me about what happened in the past that they're like, I was shit scared of you. Cause don't you remember that time when you smashed everything up in the kitchen or you did this or you did, do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, okay, I get it, you know what I mean, I, I, I get it. Like, I mean, the, the, I probably can't remember.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  The amount of times I, I hurt people that were close to me throughout that period of time and, you know, you feel so guilty for it. The way I've got better is by understanding that. I have to wipe the slate clean. I had to clean my side of the street. And then draw a line in the sand and beg people to move forward with me, you know, and let them know that I'm gonna make amends every day. You know, this will never stop me being in debt to you. You know, I'm not saying I'm out of your pocket. I'm just saying that you have to give me a chance now, you know, um.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  And it's been tough for everyone because it's very easy for the, for the person in recovery to be like, well, I'm changed. Come on, everyone. Why are we not smiling and dancing? And do you know what I mean? And everyone's like.

• 52:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  How dare you?

• 52:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. But it's amazing. You've got that, again, ability to see from everyone else's angle and to also be humble and to say, you know, please come with me on this journey, you know, and, and, and ask for that permission. I think that's quite, again, that's quite a rare thing to do.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 53:00Speaker 04

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• 53:30Speaker 07

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• 54:03Fearne Cotton?

  At what point? Because it's so difficult, isn't it? When it's, when you're so in the trenches with addiction.

• 54:10Fearne Cotton?

  And, you know, it's your day to day. It's your coping mechanism. Like you say, I think so many people who have fallen into addictive patterns or who are addicts have huge social anxiety. Like you say, don't feel like they've got the manual to life. And it's a coping mechanism. And it might not just be drugs and alcohol. It could be, you know, for me, it was like I had eating disorders growing up and all sorts of coping mechanisms that were making things worse. But you don't know it when you're in it. You're just coping. You're just trying to survive. At what point did you think, oh, this is, I might use the word addict here? Because that's a big deal to step into that space rather than, like you say, I'm just drinking. I'm having a good time. I'm out, you know, I'm partying and I'm, and I'm turning up to work and people are embracing me. At what point do you go, this is addiction?

• 54:57Speaker 02

  It was a lack of control. I think that kind of made me understand after a few attempts. It was that, that whole, I, I, I, like even in my, in my addiction, I was highly functional, like as a, you know, outside my house. I was still turning up for work. I still had the ability to, all right, I'm stopping at six. I go to work. I come back at six. All right, I'm free to do what I want now. Like, I could do that. But the minute I went, all right, I'm going to go to the, to the pub and have two drinks and then come back. And then I wouldn't come back for a week.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  I was like, at some point, I was like, oh, hold on, hold on. I'm weak here. Do you know what I mean? It's like, there's something that is controlling me, like, it's got, I cannot control what's gonna happen once I put a drink in me. And I couldn't stop.

• 55:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? Like, for anything. So, you got your kid's birthday party, you got, you know, there's things and people that you have to turn up for. I couldn't make it.

• 56:07Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  I couldn't make it. I couldn't, you know, I couldn't give those things the attention that they needed. And that's when it was very clear to me, even though I didn't speak it, I didn't admit it. I knew in myself, like, all right, this is, you know, I'm done. Like, it's got me.

• 56:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  I'm gone here. Um, it's only gonna be people giving me help. That is gonna be able to get me out of this. It's not one of those famous sort of Ashley turnarounds that can happen in this moment anymore. It's gone way beyond that point.

• 56:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Um, so all I was really waiting for, not waiting for it, but what was needed was a catalyst, was a, they call it a rock bottom, right? And I feel like I had several already that didn't seem to work. But the one that did was my daughter. It was my daughter was six at the time. And she knocked on the door in the house where I was kind of isolating. And she said, I want you to leave. Like, very mature statement for her to make. She looked at me and she was like, I don't want you to live here anymore, daddy.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  And that broke me. I was done, I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, bear in mind for context, I'd had a previous relationship before this. I had older kids that were already not talking to me because of my drink problems and, and, and my, my addiction. Um, so I just, I just saw the cycle repeating. I was like, you know, this was meant to be a new start for me. I was meant to be, you know, being a better parent, a better person, a better partner. Um, and I was just repeating all the same mistakes again. Um, but when she said that.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just changed everything for me. And it was like that night, I rang someone for help, that someone introduced me into to someone else. And by the next day, I was in rehab. I was, I was gone, you know, and I was one thing that I never, I never wanted to do. I really didn't want to do that because I'd seen the others before me, you know, in the papers, this person goes to rehab again, this, that, whatever, you know, you see all the, the front page and the tabloids and whatever. And I was like, I don't want to be that guy. And I've managed to keep out of the papers, you know, the amount of times I'd put myself in such crazy situations, I should have been plastered all over the papers from way before that point,

• 58:44Speaker 02

  but I'd managed to stay below the radar. So it was like, do I want the world to know, you know, what I've been going through? No one sees me as that person. But getting help was more important, you know, so I took the leap and that changed my life, just changed my life.

• 58:59Fearne Cotton?

  And also, being able to talk about it where we've not got time or room for shame in this conversation. We've got to have these open chats about addiction and getting help and, and the depths that it takes you to, you know, massive hats off talking about it in this book and in, and in this podcast today, because so many people are affected by it, whether it's them going through addiction, family members going through addiction, having parents that are, you know, addicts, it's, it's really hard. So I think having this chat where you're being so open and honest is so powerful. It's so powerful. And I think, you know, not only are you able to break cycles in your own family lineage and your own patterns and seeing that you're making that positive change,

• 59:42Fearne Cotton?

  but that ripple effect, I think, is massive.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't, I feel like that's the only reason why I've done this, to be honest. Um, you know, I mean, who knows whether the book's going to sell or not or whatever. It was just like, I always knew, once I was like proper in recovery, that at some point I need to speak about this, because actually what I witnessed was. A lot of people that come from where I come from, especially in the black community, it's quite taboo.

• 1:00:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  To talk about this stuff. Like, I mean, it's taboo to talk about like having counselling or.

• 1:00:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  Therapy or, do you know what I mean? It's like, it's not a thing that a lot of us are comfortable talking about openly or even doing. Um, so that, that level of vulnerability from someone like me, I guess, could be an inspiration for someone else to, to, you know, to see that they can do it, do you know what I mean? And not be ridiculed for it or. So I just felt like, you know, it's important that I, I document these sort of things. I talk about this experience and there must be more to me being able to make that change than me being able to make that change. It must be, this must be relevant to, to other people.

• 1:01:01Fearne Cotton?

  So many, so many people. You're now four and a half years clean, is that right?

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, correct. Yeah.

• 1:01:06Fearne Cotton?

  That's amazing.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  In November. Um, it's a beautiful thing, but it's, you know, still, it's one hour, it's one day.

• 1:01:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  At a time, you know, it's never, it's never like a foregone conclusion that it will always be this way. But I feel pretty confident in myself about it and I'm living my best life now, man. It's no coincidence that all of these things that have been happening when I say around like adolescence and, you know, obviously the book and like just the stuff that I'm doing is part of the gift of my sobriety, you know? Um, and I have a lot of, you know, I found a community of people in my workspace that have been in the same position as me, you know, it's so weird because I was saying before about not having the manual and not feeling a part of anything.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  And desperately looking for these tribes in the wrong places throughout my life. So actually, I found it here, you know, I feel so comfortable. I've got people on the end of the phone that I can call that I know love me and I love them back just as much and. It's like, it's all worked out pretty well, you know, so.

• 1:02:18Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  It's where I was meant to be.

• 1:02:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so amazing. On that note, cause it does seem like you're. You know, who knows where you're gonna go next. It just seems like you could do whatever the hell you want. Like you've got. This drive and this determination and so much passion and oomph and clarity it seems as well at this point in your life. Where would you say is your happy place? Can you pinpoint it to either a place or it could be a mindset? What does that mean for you?

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Um, I pretty much know you've had other people say this, but for me, it's the gym.

• 1:02:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  I know it's like boring, I guess, but it's the gym. It's, it's. The gym is where I kind of, I evaluate everything, like.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  My mind works, so even though I'm doing loads in there, my thinking process. I'm not thinking about what I'm doing. I'm thinking about what I need to do. Do you know what I mean? Like, and how that experience felt for me and the things that I can change. Um, and who I need to be doing more for, who I should do less for, like all of that sort of self-analysis.

• 1:03:33Fearne Cotton?

  It's your little thinking space.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Happens in there, yeah, and I'm kind of, and I've learnt to really love that, like. I mean, even before I kind of got help with my addiction and stuff, I started running. I was just like throughout lockdown, actually, and I was just running. I was like running twenty K a day and just like.

• 1:03:51Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking hell, twenty K?

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it was just. It was space.

• 1:03:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  It was just space away from it.

• 1:03:59Fearne Cotton?

  I love that you didn't just start with like a five K, just straight for the twenty.

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  It started, it started with like five or maybe three, but it built up and I just kind of, you know, I would just run. And be thinking about myself and stuff and then look up and, you know, I'd gone from Crouch End and I'd be in London Bridge.

• 1:04:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  Shit, I've got to go home.

• 1:04:17Fearne Cotton?

  I've got to have the twenty K back.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So now I've got to go back. So that's how it kind of built up.

• 1:04:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  And that kind of turned into gym and just understanding that it's so been so powerful for my mental health.

• 1:04:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Um, so now I've, I've, we, we bought a place in Kent. We've got like a huge outside space and I built a gym.

• 1:04:37Fearne Cotton?

  Love it.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  And I'm just like.

• 1:04:39Fearne Cotton?

  There's no excuse. It's there. It's in the garden. Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  It's there and I can, sometimes I go in there, I don't even train.

• 1:04:45Fearne Cotton?

  Just go and hang out.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, hang out, I sit down and I like, I get my like, my head stuff done.

• 1:04:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  You know, cause I feel, I feel like sometimes we can easily forget about ourselves, you know, when you're, when you're in like a very, you're in a position where you're kind of taking care of a lot of people. You want to be selfless a lot and you want to do for others and whatever, but you can't forget that it starts with you. I mean, I think even in the book, I use the analogy about the, you know, being on a plane and those oxygen masks coming down and they say to you as the parent, make sure you put yours on first before you put it on your kid. And in the beginning I was always like, huh, so obviously I'm going to save my kid first.

• 1:05:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  But it's like, well, no, not if you're passed out. You ain't going to do anything for anyone.

• 1:05:31Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  You know, so it starts with you. Um, and I start with me, um, and let that trickle down to everyone else.

• 1:05:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a good, it's a very good place to start because I think so many of us are burnt out, especially when you're, you've got kids, you're working, I mean, you've got eight kids. You've got, you've got a lot of people to, to look after and you've got a thriving career, you know? It's a lot. You do have to have that time out to go, am I actually okay? How am I feeling? Am I all right? I mean, it's so, it's utterly impossible in fact, to cover the entirety of your story and your life and everything that's in this book in an hour. You know, we've packed a hell of a lot in, but there's so much more. I urge people to read this book. Certainly if you feel like you wanna really dive into that motivation and drive that we've all got the potential to have, but we've got these blocks. It is

• 1:06:18Fearne Cotton?

  the perfect, I, I took so much from it and stuff to just really get my head in a good space with focus. It's, it's a brilliant book. So congratulations and thank you so much, Ashley.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:06:31Fearne Cotton?

  Ashley, oh my God, a massive thank you. Ashley's so brilliant at telling the stories of his life. I could sit and listen to him all day. It was just, I loved that episode. It was one of those moments where even during the podcast, I had a little bit of headspace to think, God, you've got a cool job. This is a really brilliant moment. You're really lucky. And I do feel really lucky just getting to sit every week with a different person and getting to chat to them and, and hear their stories and their thoughts. And I definitely felt that today. You've probably already watched it, but in case you haven't, I think everyone on the planet has by now. You can see Ashley in Adolescence on Netflix right now. And his book, Always Winning, is out on the 29th of May. Right, we're almost in

• 1:07:15Fearne Cotton?

  June, which means it's almost time for a new Happy Place Book Club read. The book you wanna get your hands on as quick as poss to read along with us is The Names by Florence Knapp. I was hearing about this book like a year ago, like the talk up has been huge and rightly so. It's set in 1987, in the aftermath of a great storm. Cora sets out with her young daughter to register the birth of her son. Her husband intends for her to follow a longstanding family tradition and call the baby after him. But when faced with the decision, Cora hesitates. Is it right for her child to inherit his name from generations of domineering men? I mean, there is so, it's not just that, guys. I don't wanna tell you

• 1:08:00Fearne Cotton?

  anymore because it goes off in some very different paths, very different tangents, and it is just unputdownable. You're gonna love it. It's such a good one. Make sure you're following at Happy Place Book Club so you can join in with the chat and get Load of behind the scenes goss from author Florence too. Right, until next time, massive thanks to Ashley, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, Olivia.

• 1:08:52Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 1:09:25Speaker 06

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