How to embrace the mess and teach your kids to cook

If you have kids, cooking with them might sound like a daunting prospect. But David Nayfeld, the chef behind the new book, Dad, What's for Dinner?, says cooking with your kids can create positive memories and help your kids build useful skills. In this episode, Nayfeld shares easy weeknight recipes to try with your kids and cooking tasks children can help with at any age. Yes, it might get messy, but that's OK if you're connecting and spending time together. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:17Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:24Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, it's Marielle. Okay, picture this. You're in the kitchen, making chicken cutlets, and you've got a kid in the house. Your child, or your niece or nephew, your grandkid. And they come up to you while you're wrists-deep in egg, raw chicken, and breadcrumbs, and say something like, "You want to look at my drawing?" Or, "You want to play catch?" Or, "I'm hungry." Or, "Can I watch Bluey?" Now, do you tell them to go in the other room and play? Or do you get them involved? As any adult who takes care of a child knows, getting food on the table is a big part of the job. And often, while we're doing that, the kids are in the other room, waiting to eat. That's something professional chef David Nayfeld is trying to change with his cookbook. "Dad, what's for dinner?"

• 1:09Speaker 02

  For me, what the essence of the book is, is about how to reconnect with our families while everybody is in separate rooms, doing separate things on separate devices. You know, the kitchen can be the great unifier.

• 1:20Marielle Segarra?

  David could have written a very different cookbook. He's worked in a kitchen for nearly three decades, has cooked in some of the finest fine dining restaurants in the world, and opened Caifico in the Bay Area, which was listed as one of the best new restaurants in America when it opened in 2018. But what David, who has a young daughter, really wanted to talk about was what people eat at home.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  And that was in the forefront of my mind, because I had a child that I was raising. And, you know, my daughter's time became very valuable to me.

• 1:49Marielle Segarra?

  David's new cookbook is full of family-friendly recipes. And the point is to bring everyone together to enjoy a meal, but also to embrace the process of making one, spills and all.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  As parents, we need to remember that we are always trying to be like, hey, I don't want a big mess. Or hey, God forbid if they break an egg and a shell goes into the bowl. Okay, so what? Then you fish the shell out. Then you sweep up the flour. Then you wipe up the chocolate. It's not the biggest deal in the world. A little bit of a mess is totally worth the price of admission to that time spent with your child together, building their confidence, building their palate, and building that relationship between the both of you. Recognizing that doing stuff together is really the fulfilling part. It's the satisfying part.

• 2:37Marielle Segarra?

  On this episode of Life Kit, reporter Andy Tagle talks with David about the delights and difficulties of making meals with your kids at any age, how to set your family up for successful weeknight dinners, and why you don't have to shy away from spices on your kid's plate.

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• 4:17Speaker 04

  My personal struggle is that I have very little confidence in the kitchen, and even less confidence about helping my small child navigate the kitchen. So thoughts to start for non-cooks like me?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  So, you know, I have certain isms that people who are in my life kind of make fun of me for eventually, right? Because you say something enough, they kind of like roll their eyes in the back of their head. But one of the ones that I often say is like, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Don't wait for everything to be perfect to start. Sometimes you just need to get going and don't be afraid of burning the thing. Don't be afraid of undercooking the thing, overcooking the thing. The first time I cooked for my entire family, I think I was about like eight or nine, and I cooked fried chicken. If you can imagine letting an eight or nine-year-old fry.

• 5:01Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  You know what I always say to people is, it was the 90s.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  And so I fried chicken for my family and I made mashed potatoes because I had watched my aunt's boyfriend do the same thing and it was spectacular. And I didn't even know you could have fried chicken outside of KFC. And I was like, this is incredible. I'm going to recreate this for my family. So the chicken came out raw and my mom was really, really nice about it and just took it and threw it in the oven. And then everyone loved it afterwards. And then, no big deal, right? The truth is, right, like as long as everybody is in, you know, good spirits and just kind of like has a kind of funny bone about it, like you can get through even the toughest meals. But the thing that you have to remember is like, set achievable bars for the time that you're doing it. If you are going to attempt to do something that is fairly ambitious for you,

• 5:51Speaker 02

  don't do it with the backdrop of, I need to get the kids in bed in 45 minutes to an hour. And if this all goes wrong, the whole night is haywire, right? You do that on a Saturday or a Sunday or a summer day where there's just more time to play around and it's all good. If the kids end up a little bit late in bed, if the routine gets thrown off, then it's fine.

• 6:14Speaker 04

  Can you walk us through some ways to start getting your kids involved? And then, you know, graduating through the levels, what might that look like?

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So the thing is, you know, my daughter, almost at the age of two.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Was helping me stir things on the stove. For me, allowing your kids to do dangerous things carefully is so crucial to their development and their confidence in life. As parents, we want to eliminate anything dangerous from their path. But that's not the way life works, right? And so they need to be able to do certain dangerous things in front of you. And what I would do when she was like two or two and a half and she was able to communicate back to me is she would be stirring something, I would say, hey, point to the thing you cannot touch here. And she would point to the metal part of the pan. I'd say, point to the thing you can touch. She would point to the wooden spoon. And I would say, what happens if you touch this? And she'd say, ouchie, right? Okay, good. So she gets it.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Now, I'm not walking away from her at this point, stirring this thing. I'm watching her and letting her develop these things. Now, when you've got a super young kid, you know, at two years old, I think that's the perfect time for them to do things like, we used to make scrambled eggs with cheese in them. And so I would grate the cheese and then she would take the cheese and she'd put it in the pan and then I would help stir. And then we graduated to she would stir. And then we graduated to, you know, a little bit older, she would grate the cheese, right? Even though you have to be very careful on the grater to make sure that the block of cheese is big enough to where their fingers aren't put near the grater.

• 7:49Speaker 05

  So takeaway one, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. If you're not great in the kitchen, pick easy to make, yummy looking meals you can get excited about and learn with your kid as you go. And if you want more inspiration on just how to do that, we actually have a whole episode on how to get into cooking when you're not into cooking. To make sure you're setting up your little ones for success, calibrate for their age or level of coordination. There are lots of tools out there that can assist with basic access and safety. Things like toddler towers that can help them reach the kitchen counter, kid friendly knives. From there, David splits up risk into three basic categories.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Level one risk is like, no.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  No potential for ouchies, right? No potential for pain. And so what that is, is you're picking basil, you're picking parsley, you're picking herbs, you're helping measuring things into teaspoons and cups, and you're using a whisk in a bowl to help make cake and things like that. Like, all of those things have zero risk. And maybe the worst thing that happens is a little bit of something spills out onto the counter or the floor, right? But there's no harm.

• 9:01Speaker 04

  Mess, no harm, got it.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the second level of risk is like, we are just starting to introduce things that could create a very little ouchie, but they are under control, right? So you have a peeler, you have stirring a pot of, you know, soup. For you, you really just need to be cognizant of what your kitchen setup is, how tall your kid is, right? Like, because, you know, it's like a little bit like a roller coaster ride. If your kid is not this high, right? No matter what age they are, like, sometimes that becomes a little dangerous. Also, you have to recognize your own kid's coordination. Some kids are a different level of dexterity. The third one, that's when they can do things like, they can help use the mixer.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  They know not to put their hands in the mixer when it's moving. They can pull things out of the oven and put them in the oven. We are cutting things that, you know, maybe are not overly difficult, right? Like, I probably wouldn't give even our 14-year-old a sharp knife and tell him like, "Hey, I want you to cut this butternut squash," right? Because it's a very hard vegetable to cut. But what I would say is peel the onions and I want you to chop them up. Which I, by the way, I always say this, I think onions and garlic are a terrific prep project for a teenager because it teaches them humility. And so that's the one, two, three kind of risk category. And once you graduate from like, risk category three, you're off and flying. You're ready to do whatever you need to do.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  When you're cooking with kids, you just have to accept that there is going to be mess. Like, I'm thinking about the time I wanted to do pizza night with my son, and I didn't like, portion out the sauces beforehand. Then I, you know, I was like, "He's, he could probably do this, he could probably pour it out." And instead, it was like, sauce all over. So I'm thinking just like, any tips for how to accept mess and not, you know, lose the threat of your recipe or your whole night.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Don't let that be the thing that stops you from your next pizza night. You did it, you learned. Did the world end? Did anyone die? The thing is, now, what are you gonna do next time? Your son is gonna have a pre-portioned thing of sauce, and you're gonna say, "Great, put this on the sauce." And then you're gonna also be hyper-explicit. Put this on the sauce. Put it right in the middle. Maybe you might guide their hand to start for a few times and not just let them, you know, freewheel it. These are all things you're gonna learn through the process. Hmm. You have to accept there is a little bit of risk here. It's fine. So he poured the sauce all over the pizza. Okay, accept your L, move on to the next pizza night. This is just a fact of life that when we're going through this, life is not tidy.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Life is not perfect. You just gotta be willing to accept that sometimes there's gonna be a mess, right? Might be the title of my next book, "Sometimes There's a Mess." Right? And that's just what it is. Twenty years down the line, what would have been a better story? That your kid threw the pizza sauce all over the place and now it's a hilarious memory? Or is it, "Hey, they nailed it. It was perfect. I had a pizza, I forgot about it the next day." Like, there are some days where you're like, "Hey, I need that frozen bag of ragu that I made two months ago that's in the freezer because I've got 20 minutes here and I've gotta take a meeting after dinner. I'm not gonna let perfect be the enemy of good here. I'm pulling out the bag, I'm gonna defrost it, I'm gonna boil pasta, I'm gonna get ragu into the pasta. And my way of getting my kids to contribute

• 12:25Speaker 02

  is I'm gonna ask them to set the table. And then I'm gonna ask them to clear their plates and bring them to the sink. And if they're old enough, I'm gonna ask them to wash them too. That's gonna be their contribution that night. Dinner's gonna be done and dusted in 30 minutes. I'm gonna be on to my meeting and I'm not gonna feel like I failed or compromised."

• 12:43Speaker 05

  Takeaway two. Yes, you should embrace the mess, but also choose your projects wisely. Not every family dinner can or should be a five-course meal. So consider your time before picking a recipe and remember that it's okay to get your family involved in different ways, be it scrambling an egg or scrubbing the plates after dinner. Plan ahead as best you can. And remember, cooking together doesn't mean starting from scratch every night.

• 13:11Speaker 04

  What about grocery shopping? What about stocking your kitchen to have what you need for that inevitable question of what's for dinner? What are we going to do for this busy Wednesday night? Do you menu prep for the week and then shop for recipes? Do you have any suggestions or advice for how other parents can do this?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  My suggestion to you is that every Sunday, if Sunday is the day for you, maybe it's Saturday, sit down and you talk to whoever your stakeholders are in the house. And then you talk about, you say, okay, great. Mondays is actually not that bad. So what we're going to do is we're going to order a bunch of chicken. We're going to marinate chicken. We're going to grill a bunch of chicken and then it's going to be grilled chicken that we're going to top with a little bit of pomodoro sauce and some melted cheese. And we're going to have breadless chicken parm. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to make two times the batch of grilled chicken. And then next day, I'm going to pack kids lunch.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  I'm going to do a grilled chicken sandwich or a leftover grilled chicken parm for them. And they'll love that. And I'm going to take some of the grilled chicken that didn't put the melted cheese on, and I'm going to put that on the leftover of the salad that didn't dress. And I have my salad with my chicken for my next day. So each day is literally, pun intended, feeding the next day.

• 14:28Speaker 04

  There's so many lovely recipes in your book. Do you have a favorite go to that you'd care to share?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  I would say the one that brings me the most joy is when, you know, my daughter and I make chocolate cake together. It's definitely a little bit of a project, but having her make that cake with me, you know, like she was so like in awe of its size and everything. And, and the entire process is so fun and delightful. And I find it to be such a cool experience for them to see, starting from scratch, something that is so magnificent that you can make. And then I really love the idea of being one of those families where you walk into the kitchen and there's just a cake sitting there with like, you know, in with a glass cloche on it. And it like reminds me of kind of being like my own little mini version of Martha Stewart,

• 15:16Speaker 02

  where you're like, oh yeah, like, you know, I just happen to walk into my kitchen, there's freshly baked cookies or cake or something like that. And I think that that's a really awesome thing to do. Now, obviously, this is not something you're gonna do all the time, but it is such a like a mic drop moment in your kind of parenting relationship with your kids, when you guys can achieve something so special like that. Another thing that I think really, really is exceptional here is, you know, things like the spicy rigatoni. You know, I have been big on developing spice in my daughter's palate. And I think the best way to do that, if you like spicy food and you want your kids to also enjoy it, is from a young age, you just start adding a little bit, just the tiniest amount.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  And then you just, you get to a point where they start to taste it and they start to crave it too. Now, it takes time, right? Because the child's palate grows over time. And so I think recognizing that your kid's palate naturally is probably gonna reject spicy things at first. But if you slowly start to develop it, they'll slowly start to develop a taste for it.

• 16:20Speaker 05

  Finally, takeaway three. Remember, cooking is about connection, not simply creating the perfect combination of proteins, vegetables, and carbohydrates. Whatever you choose to eat, the more ownership a kid can take of a meal, the more excited they feel about what they eat, the easier it'll be to encourage adventurous eating. As David writes to parents in the book, "Kids are kids, and their palates are both different and your responsibility to develop."

• 16:50Speaker 05

  Finally, before I let you go, David, I want to bring it back to the genesis of the book. I really like how you specifically reach out to fathers and share your personal experience as a single parent. I hadn't realized until I read your book how often cookbooks, family cookbooks, seem to default to a mother or mother figure's point of view. Any last thoughts for us on how and why dads should claim space for themselves in the kitchen and beyond?

• 17:13Speaker 02

  I don't see enough messaging, speaking to dad saying, hey, let's arm you with the things that you need, right? And even generationally, you're not getting your dad talking to you about that like, oh, son, come here, let me teach you about how I used to make this with whoever used to teach it to me. Now, I'm not saying that never happens, but it's certainly not the norm. And we don't talk to dads in the same way of saying, hey, let me tell you how you need to prepare the home. Let me tell you how you need to get your kid ready for school. Let me talk to you about how you need to braid your daughter's hair. Let me talk to you about, you know, so many of these different elements, right? So I find a whole generation of men who really do want to be involved.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  That is 100% their intention, yet they come into the space with very little messaging, with very little resources, and frankly, with a culture that's not gearing anything towards them, right? And so, once we kind of recognize that, hey, this is something we need to start optimizing more towards and recognizing that we really want to make sure that everyone gets to fully participate, we also have to change the way we talk about it. Because dads are more involved. Dads are taking a bigger role in their kids' lives. And we want to encourage that because it's super important for everyone. And I think it also makes for happier families with less resentment. And I think that that probably feels like common sense to most people.

• 18:40Speaker 05

  Thank you for the encouragement and for the inspiration. David, it's really been a pleasure. Thanks for your time.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much.

• 18:47Speaker 05

  Okay, let's recap. Takeaway one: don't let perfect be the enemy of good in your family kitchen. It's okay to learn as you go and to get your kids involved at any age. Little, little ones can sprinkle spices and mix bowls. Young kids can stir things on a stove or form meatballs for pasta night. Teenagers can slice, dice, and sear. Just show them the way. Takeaway two: things are gonna get messy. That might mean batch meals on weeknights and baking projects with the little ones on the weekends. And takeaway three: cooking is an opportunity for connection, not just sustenance. The more everyone partakes in the making, the more you'll enjoy the eating.

• 19:29Marielle Segarra?

  That was reporter Andy Tagle talking to professional chef David Nefelt. For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes. We have one on how to save money at the grocery store and another on meal prep. You can find those at npr.org/lifekit. And if you love Life Kit and want even more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/lifekitnewsletter. Also, if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, or you just want to say something nice to us, email us at [email protected]. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes

• 20:12Marielle Segarra?

  Margaret Serino and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from David Greenberg. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 20:25Speaker 00

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