Dear Life Kit: I have the same holiday drama with my family every year

The holidays bring all kinds of family drama: the sibling who won't compromise, the grandparents who won't travel and different expectations of everything from etiquette to hygiene. Expert negotiator Bob Bordone and therapist Sahaj Kaur Kohli answer questions from Dear Life Kit listeners about how to handle holiday stress at family gatherings. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekit https://www.instagram.com/nprlifekit/?hl=en Sign up for our newsletter here. https://www.npr.org/newsletter/life-kit Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Support the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekit http://plus.npr.org/lifekit See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast.

• 0:15Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:21Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, it's Marielle. I have a family member, who will not be named, who is a remote hog. When we're gathered together as a fam, they want to watch what they want to watch. Doesn't matter what anybody else wants to watch. It's always been like this. And every year on Christmas, they want to watch A Christmas Story and then, unfailingly, some other films that I'm either tired of or not interested in. I love them. I do. And I know this is not the most serious of problems, but it drives me up a wall. Somehow, though, realizing that this is going to happen every Christmas takes some of the sting out of it.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  I don't know if there's a way to avoid stress during the holiday season, but I do think we can minimize it by being more realistic about what to expect.

• 1:10Marielle Segarra?

  Sahaj Korkholy is a therapist, writer, and founder of Brown Girl Therapy. A lot of her work centers around the experience of immigrants and their children.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  There's something about this time of year where we think about our family and we're like, oh, it's gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be great this year. It's like we wiped out our memory from last year. And I'm like, wait, why do we think that? If it happened in the last five years, why do you think it's gonna be different all of a sudden?

• 1:32Speaker 03

  I agree. No stress? Unlikely. But are there ways to manage, minimize, and maybe have a slightly different and more edifying experience, or at least less frustrating experience? There is.

• 1:44Marielle Segarra?

  That's Bob Bordone, senior fellow at Harvard Law School and author of Conflict Resilience: Negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In. He and Sahaj both say, for starters, a little less stewing in your head, a little more saying what you need out loud, can go a long way.

• 2:00Speaker 03

  I think more conversation around aligning of expectations and hopes and making sure you do those things that are sources of joy and fun are really important.

• 2:11Marielle Segarra?

  On this episode of Dear Life Kit, the advice series from Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle, Sahed and Bob are here to help you thrive in this season of festive family gatherings. They'll talk about siblings who don't yield, absentee grandparents, alarming hygiene habits, and the myth of not rocking the boat.

• 2:32Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini. Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Sheets, and more. No new tools, no extra logins, just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini. This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change.

• 3:17Speaker 04

  Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about how to make better decisions to help avoid costly mistakes. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  This message comes from Bayer. Every day in America, science delivers. Not just in the headlines, but in the moments that matter most. Science is a journey, one of curiosity, persistence, and progress. It's about asking questions, testing, learning, and improving again and again. Science delivers harvests that feed families, tools that help farmers grow more with less, and new ways to protect land for generations to come. Let's keep asking, keep testing, keep discovering, so science can keep delivering. Learn more at scandelivers.com.

• 4:14Speaker 05

  Okay, question one, let's dig in. Dear Life Kit, Every holiday season, there's some drama with my brother. He spends Thanksgiving Day with his in-laws and has declared the Friday after Thanksgiving as the day for our family to gather. He expects that we all just wait till Friday to celebrate rather than get together on the actual holiday. My mom and I have told him that this doesn't work for us, but my brother insists on this every year and we're all tired of fighting about it. What should we do? Now, we're taping this after Thanksgiving, but we can apply this to Christmas, to any holiday that you celebrate, New Year's. Signed, I'm ho, ho, ho over it. Okay, so we're starting off with a, you know, what I consider a classic holiday stress question, which is family travel math. Who's house for turkey?

• 4:58Speaker 05

  Are we traveling here in December? Here for Christmas Eve if you celebrate? New Year's, there are so many demands on your time, everybody wants dibs. What do you got for us? Anyone feel strongly?

• 5:07Speaker 03

  Can I just say, just listening to that question made my blood pressure go up. There's a lot of things that stuck with me, but particularly the use of the word declared, and then my mom and I told, and then he insisted. Those words stick with me because nothing here is a conversation. And it sounds like there's no listening. So I think where I want to start is just from, how could we shift this from back and forth proclamations to something that actually feels like a conversation?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think Bob is right that there's no sense of co-creation happening in something that is supposed to be joyous. And I think about how birth order, or gender, or family roles might be at play here. You know, does your brother feel entitled because he's older or because he always gets his way? Is there a resentment because you've always, as the sister, had to work around him historically? Is this just one piece of a bigger issue that always happens? Because what's really happening, as Bob is saying, is it's not really just about this instance, it's about the fact that one person's experience is being centered and that's what's causing the conflict here.

• 6:22Speaker 05

  How do we even begin to undo this? If you're in the room with this family, where do we start?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, as a therapist, I would start with what is everyone's stake and interest in this? What is the most important piece of this for you? Is it that it's Thursday? Is it that this person is available? Is it that you traveled to this place? Because then that's how we make these choices. And how can we find something that incorporates shared responsibility and also allows for different choices and a different way to co-create something that honors all of that?

• 6:52Speaker 03

  I think the other thing that I would just say on this is this is a conversation that has to start before the moment that someone declares. Right? It has to be, there has to be like a conversation of reset here.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with that. What can we do to make this feel a little easier next year, right now?

• 7:12Speaker 05

  Hmm, that's really good advice. Talk about it early, talk about it in a not-charged situation. My final question for both of you was, did you have any template language on pushing back on unreasonable family members or people who are just completely unyielding?

• 7:26Speaker 03

  You know, one thing that I might say is to really take a step back and say something like this, you know, there's a side of me that actually wants to just fight back with you, and there's a side of me that feels like it's easier maybe to just cave in, and then there's a side of me that's kind of curious what's motivating this or wants to ask you to say more. And just to say, you know, there's another side of you because you actually wrote this note to Dear Life Kit. Voice that side as well.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah, I love that. I would just also say sometimes we can diffuse some of that entitlement, anger, tension. Not always, but sometimes when we're feeling like someone's charged with what they want or what they expect or what they need, we can sometimes just highlight and reflect back that meaning and that emotion rather than like what they're actually saying. So like, hey, I can tell this is really important to you. Like, let's talk about this now, rather than like, oh, my God, why are you deciding for all of us? Why are you making the decision? We can just say, okay, obviously, this is important. This is why he's coming at me like this. Let me reflect that, you know? And then we can move into the curiosity.

• 8:40Speaker 05

  So, our dear Ho Ho Hovert, we wish you well. Okay, moving on, question two. Dear Life Kit, I'm struggling with wanting more from my in-laws. My husband's parents live in Indiana and we live in California. We have two school age kids and I'd like them to have a stronger connection with their grandparents. But my husband's parents decline our invitations to come visit. They did fly out when my kids were born, but haven't been back in six years. We visit them about three times a year. My in-laws say they are happy with the frequency of our visits and they say that plane travel is too exhausting at their age. I've also tried to encourage a stronger relationship via video chat, but they routinely miss our bi-weekly scheduled calls.

• 9:23Speaker 05

  We all feel disappointed, but my husband is resistant to push his parents to engage more. How can we navigate this? Signed, Remote Relations.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  I mean, I just, I really feel for this person and I think the first thing I always tell people is to make the implicit explicit. In this case, I think that might just be between partners, not necessarily with the grandparents yet, but I do think that there needs to be an explicit definition of what this person wants from these grandparents. Is it literally just to visit? Or is it babysitting? Is it how many hours to spend with a kid, right? Like, get very specific because then we can start to get in the weeds about what they're expecting their in-laws to do with their kids and the role they're going to have and what they're going to provide to the kids. So we can start to fill in those gaps maybe elsewhere, since we know that the grandparents aren't making more of an effort. For various reasons, whether because they can't energy-wise or maybe they don't want

• 10:19Speaker 02

  to. I don't know.

• 10:21Speaker 05

  I like that. So defining it, rather than just like this nebulous sadness, let's talk about the specifics.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm very struck by your response, which I really strongly resonate with because my sense also is absolutely starting with the husband to try to understand more the source of his reluctance, because the husband is clearly deciding to hold the tension in the relationship with his spouse over raising it with...

• 10:50Speaker 03

  His parents and a real sharing of like, what, how does that make each of you feel?

• 10:57Speaker 05

  That was my question, too, that added layer of complication, like when you have certain feelings towards your in-laws, you know, how I would navigate that conversation with my own parents is really different than how I would navigate it with my spouse's parents, if I would navigate it at all. So my question to both of you was like, what role does the wife have here? Does she have just as much say in this relationship, you know, if the husband isn't interested in having it? Um, you know, it's such a tricky gray area.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is. It depends on the relationship this letter writer has with her in-laws. Does she have, does she feel comfortable enough to do that? And there are ways to do it in a way that's not confrontational, that's not harsh. It could just be, you know, maybe the next time they miss a video call, you could just send a text and say, my daughter, you know, she, she really missed seeing you. Like, when's the next time we can do that? I hope we can plan for something, you know, something that just feels low stakes, but is still asserting, you know, and, and protecting her kids in some way. I also firmly believe that it is the partner's responsibility to be that buffer and to be the main communicator.

• 11:59Speaker 03

  I mean, I really wholeheartedly agree with all of this. And one conversation you could have is what role would you like to play as grandparents? And here's the role that I would really love for you to have with our children. And in what ways is that aligned or not? Like, I, I personally would rather have a hard conversation where I learn something that feels really sad to me than keep on getting my hopes up and then having my kids always be disappointed. Or realize we do have an alignment of hopes, but gosh, we're doing a cruddy job of actualizing it.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I really agree with that. And I think that this requires a level of grief, too, right? Like, having those hard conversations, accepting what is being said to you in case there is misalignment that requires the process of grieving. Which then brings me to my last point, which is kind of like, how do you protect the kids from this, right? The kids are probably like, where's Grandma and Grandpa? Like, oh, why didn't they pick up? And so I think it's important for us to think about these other pieces that maybe don't even have anything to do with the grandparents, but it's the emotional impact and then the impact on the kids.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  You also have to think about just the capacity of the grandparents to have this conversation. And I don't necessarily mean the skill level, although a little bit. There are kind of generational differences about the willingness to have what might be a more tender emotional conversation.

• 13:36Speaker 05

  Manage your expectations for what they might be able to give you in that conversation?

• 13:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I like that a lot. Okay, remote relations. Hope it helps. More to your life, kid, after this quick break.

• 13:56Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini. One subscription that does it all. Personalized AI and premium business versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Drive, and more. Try it free for 14 days at g o o dot g l e slash Workspace with Gemini. This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book, How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about how to make better decisions

• 14:40Speaker 04

  to help avoid costly mistakes. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/podcast or wherever you listen.

• 14:50Speaker 05

  Okay, question three. Dear Life Kit, my parents don't wash their hands after using the bathroom. I've pointed it out more than once, but my mom doesn't listen to advice. Over time, I've pointed it out more strongly. She refuses just as strongly. It's disgusting, it's unhygienic, it's infuriating. And she always does the complete opposite of any criticism. What should I do? Signed, Potty Panic. The letter writer specifically, she specified for peeing for number one, in case that matters to you.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 15:29Speaker 05

  This is a strange question. Who would like to start?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  I mean, this is a classic example of reactance, right? Like, the psychological process of pushing back when you're being told to do something. And oftentimes, we see it in kids, we'll see it in emotionally immature adults, but like, at the root of it, someone doesn't want to feel controlled, or like, have a lack of autonomy. Of course, now, we're talking about something that's like, I think many people would agree, it's the right and proper and hygienic thing to do to wash your hands after you use the restroom. But clearly, this letter writer is pushing and pushing and pushing and trying to convince and win a power struggle, and it's not getting anywhere. And so, I think my main piece of advice would be, stop seeing this as a power struggle,

• 16:12Speaker 02

  and now see it as, what are you gonna do to like, maintain your own hygiene and/or share meals, or be in your mom's home, or be around her, knowing that this is what she does?

• 16:24Speaker 03

  I mean, 100%. I love this example, because it is so frequent that people will cite facts and figures to try to persuade someone. And facts and figures are not what's persuasive. And so, I do think in this case, probably the right answer is, what are the boundaries that I can put that are in within my control? Like, I mean, maybe this is a little extreme, you know, I have two separate serving spoons. Maybe that isn't even extreme, right? Things you can control.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Because in this case, I don't think getting like more scientific data is gonna be the answer.

• 17:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I was trying to think of like, is there another solve? You know, is it like reverse psychology, like bringing in the cool aunt? Like, what could possibly be the solution here? But you're both saying, we don't fix the problem, we're just letting this one go.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  I mean, Andy, I mean, from a negotiation perspective, I'll use a really fancy word that's not that fancy. But we say, look for patterns of deference.

• 17:33Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  In relationships. So I think it is a little bit like, is there someone to whom mom often defers? Maybe it is her doctor. Maybe it is the aunt who's a nurse. Maybe it's somebody else, right? But is there a way to say, she doesn't defer to me on this, but she always will defer to somebody else? And then does that person defer to me?

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I love that. I mean, I honestly, this one stumped me a little bit because it goes back to what you can and can't control. And you can control trying to have this conversation a million times. But what happens, when do you finally say, I've tried and nothing's changing?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  You know, I have one other thought that I think is, just in the spirit of brainstorming here. Instead of making, again, what I would call a fact or data-based argument, or a, I'm just gonna get louder, approach, could be to make a personal approach. This would mean a lot to me, and I appreciate it's not something you do or think is important. And it matters a lot. It may actually work, and it's coming from a different place. It's not from a place of, I know better. It's from a place that just really means a lot to me.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you're gonna do that, anyone listening, just use I language. I think, you know, instead of you're doing this, or you're grossing me out, it's like, I feel very anxious, or it makes me very uncomfortable. Like, put it back on you as something that like you're struggling with, instead of it like, you have to change.

• 19:05Speaker 05

  All right, our last question, question four. Dear Life Kit, my sister-in-law texted to let me know that she's bringing her cat to our family holiday gathering. I'm very allergic, and they know it. It isn't a matter of taking a pill and hoping for the best. Rather than relaxing, I will have to be concerned about where to sit and what to touch and how to limit my exposure. To be clear, we aren't gathering at a home that has a cat. They are bringing their cat with them. I don't want to make this all about me and my wife doesn't think I should rock the boat, but I'm worried I could have an allergic reaction for days. I have no idea how to respond. Signed, itching for a fix. As someone who is very allergic to cats, I feel like I'm a biased opinion, so I'm not going to start this one.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  Well, I shouldn't either because I'm also very allergic to cats. I get

• 19:53Speaker 02

  I don't like cats.

• 19:56Speaker 03

  Okay, our empathy for the cat person is low. Our empathy for the cat person is low. I mean, there's so many things here. But the thing that most upset me was the wife saying, don't rock the boat. And I really believe that raising conflict in a healthy way is totally legitimate, actually makes relationships stronger and better. And if we think this is rocking the boat, it's a real misframing. So I would really want this gentleman to not think of this as rocking the boat, but as raising a really legitimate need and concern.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I totally agree. I think as someone who grew up in an Indian culture and household where I was very much taught as an Indian woman not to rock the boat, I am very familiar with people feeling like saying anything about what you need or want, even if it's appropriate, equals conflict, rupture, disappointment, which then goes right against the people pleasing perfectionism that a lot of people who don't want to rock the boat internalize.

• 21:04Speaker 03

  I just, I want to acknowledge that it is hard for many people to speak up and that sometimes the only models they've had of speaking up are people who are insistent or aggressive or make demands. And so folks do need language and an understanding that

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Speaking up can be done in a kind, but also assertive way. And one of the ways could I just suggest to do that, right? Is to make it not an either or, but a both and.

• 21:37Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Right? So to be able to say to the in-laws, you know, one of the challenges I think we're gonna have with the holidays coming up is it sounds like you need to know that your cat is cared for and maybe you even want to spend some time with the cat. And also, you know, my husband is really allergic to cats as a reminder. And so we really can't have the cat in the house. I wonder if we can brainstorm what needs you have around the cat and also the limitations we have around this allergy. So encompass both sets of needs and then say, that's the shared problem we have to work on.

• 22:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 05

  You know, putting myself in this, in this person's shoes, I'm definitely that person who, if this were me, I would be so uncomfortable. I would just go, I would just go and be allergic. Like it would, I would, you know what I mean?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. It is interesting though, because what I often see though, is that we're crossing our own boundaries before we even set them and allow someone else to respect them. And what happens is you make a choice, one way or the other. You're either choosing the discomfort of going and having an allergic reaction, or you're making a choice to say something or do something different. Right? We're always making choices and sometimes when we have this deep seated conditioning, I can't rock the boat. We're not seeing it as like a sense of autonomy or a choice. We're saying there, I just can't. And it's like, you can, and you actually do have choice and agency. You're just making the choice that you're used to making versus choosing something different.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  Hmm. What a great reminder. Itching for a fix, you and me, we're gonna work on it. It is possible to be direct and nice and to deal with your conflicts. Try something new. We're gonna work on it this holiday season.

• 23:22Speaker 05

  Bob, Sahaj, before I let you go, at the end of every episode of Your Life Kit, we ask our guests for their very best piece of advice. I would love to hear what you've got.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Here's something that's been sticking with me from this conversation. Believe in your own agency.

• 23:35Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  We can't foundationally change our families. We can't change every single thing we want about the holidays, but we do have agency and a capacity to have our own boundaries, but also to influence others.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think as individuals, we have more power than we think. We all have spheres of influence. We all have ability to do things for ourselves, for other people, whatever it is. It's not about changing everything. Sometimes it's just about choosing one thing.

• 24:06Speaker 05

  Bob Bordone, Sahaj Korkoli, thank you so much for being here.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Thank you. This was so good.

• 24:14Marielle Segarra?

  That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle talking with Bob Bordone and Sahaj Korkoli. Before we go, do you have a friend who you're always swapping advice with? Think they'd like this episode? Why not share it? Spread the word about Life Kit. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Gharib. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider, Lennon Sherburne, and Margaret Serino. Engineering support comes from Kwasi Lee. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thanks for listening.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.