“Feel it, process it, move on!” Mary Earps: How to find gratitude after hardship

Do you trust your gut to make the best decision for yourself? Former England goalkeeper Mary Earps has had to make some bold, brave choices recently. In this chat with Fearne, Mary explains how she knew retiring from international football was right for her, and they both explore the importance of having different chapters and challenges in your life. Having experienced periods of real mental darkness, Mary talks through the practices that now ground her in the present. She also reckons setting life goals might just be setting you up for disappointment. Should we be focusing on progress, instead of perfection? Mary has advice on how to be ok with not being good at everything! Plus, Mary recalls the euphoric day the Lionesses won the 2022 EUROs, and reflects on the emotional impact it’s had on women across the world. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Sarina Wiegman https://pod.fo/e/1ff134 Leah Williamson https://pod.fo/e/26e9fe Molly McCann https://pod.fo/e/240297 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To market, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that knows hardship often leads to growth. Today, I'm chatting to Mary Earps.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  People will sometimes say, like, if it feels dark, put a light on. It's not as simple as that. Sometimes I need to sit in the darkness. I need to allow myself to feel. Don't tell me that I don't feel that way. Don't tell yourself, oh, you're not sad, get on with it. There's other people out there who have a worse life than you, Mary. Your life isn't that hard. Look at all the amazing things. It's just, okay, I feel this way. That is valid. Why do I feel that way? Process it, feel it, and then I can move on from it.

• 1:03Fearne Cotton?

  Anyone else overwhelmed? Put your hand up. I'm putting two up. Oh, my goodness. What is going on? Especially, I don't know, if you've got kids, I'm finding this last term of school before the summer holidays insane. How many sports days and swimming galas and assemblies and summer fairs and all that jazz? Are we attending? I mean, I might as well literally go to school every day with my kids and just stay there. And also, I'm just having, you know, when everything in your house, home, breaks at the same time? So my dishwasher's not working, my car wouldn't charge all weekend. And also, oh, this isn't like something breaking, but my kids are fostering a poor baby bird

• 1:47Fearne Cotton?

  that my cat's attacked and we are trying to keep it alive. And we're going to call the, is it RSPB? Is that the one I'm thinking of? To give us some tips because we've done pretty well with it so far. But that is just, it's another responsibility that I'm obviously taking extremely seriously because love wildlife, but just overwhelmed, just like a lot of people to feed and animals and things to keep alive. And, oh my goodness, it's full on. So whenever I do these podcasts, it is pure escapism for me. I feel very lucky that I get to do this. And not only is it escapism, but also I get to draw out great wisdom from people that have lived a life.

• 2:29Fearne Cotton?

  And today is absolutely that. So let's talk about wonderful Mary. So the UEFA Women's Euros are starting on the 2nd of July with matches being played in Switzerland throughout the month. So I had to get one of England's most legendary players on the show to reflect on what a phenomenal few years of women's sport we have had. Mary is of course, the iconic England goalkeeper who saved a penalty against Spain in the 2023 World Cup final. If you haven't seen it, watch it back. I sort of felt, I felt as euphoric as I imagined Mary did. Like I sort of jumped off my chair, goosebumps. It's just the most gorgeous bit of footage.

• 3:10Fearne Cotton?

  And although the Lionesses didn't win that final, Mary's performance earned her the Golden Glove for Best Keeper in the tournament. She was also a part of that utterly brilliant England team that won the 2022 Euros, which again, whenever I watched that last game against Germany, I cry. Just a couple of months ago, she announced her international retirement. So obviously we talked about that decision as well as the one to move from Manchester United to Paris Saint-Germain, which all sparked some really interesting chat about the importance of having different chapters in your life and being bold and brave enough to make scary decisions for yourself.

• 3:50Speaker 03

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• 5:08Fearne Cotton?

  To Mary in just a moment, I promise. But first, a quick reminder, partly for me, to be honest, because the Happy Place Festival in London's Gunnersbury Park is less than two weeks away. Ah! And then we're going to be at Tatten Park in Cheshire on the 30th and 31st of August. Oh my God, it's going to be so good. Do you know who's coming with us to join in the fun and to do talks? Davina McCull, Jordan Stephens, Liz Earle, Millie McIntosh. Sorry, this isn't a bloody good line up. It's an amazing line up. Oh, also the amazing guys from All on the Board and loads more. Just go and have a look on the website. And of course, there's all the meditation classes and yoga and breathwork and sound baths and shopping and food and all that.

• 5:52Fearne Cotton?

  You can get involved with whatever you like. I would so, so, so love to see you there. Go and get your tickets at happyplacefestival.com. Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:24Fearne Cotton?

  Well, look, we've already been discussing, sort of on mic, off mic, summer attire. Like, we love wearing a dress in the summer.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Love.

• 6:31Fearne Cotton?

  But so impractical.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  So impractical. Flowy.

• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Airy.

• 6:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Enjoyable. Not practical.

• 6:38Fearne Cotton?

  We should, for context, say it's about eight million degrees outside.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Nine million, I would say.

• 6:43Fearne Cotton?

  It's insane.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Insane. And there was a lot of stairs.

• 6:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  This is quite short. I should have gone at the end, but I was first leading up the stairs. So the people behind got a hell of a view.

• 6:51Fearne Cotton?

  For free.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  You didn't have to pay for it.

• 6:53Fearne Cotton?

  But we've got aircon in here, which is.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Delightful.

• 6:56Fearne Cotton?

  Like Mary's come for the aircon, but it's hopefully staying for the chat.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Severe lack of AC in this country.

• 7:01Fearne Cotton?

  We don't have it.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Well, no, because we're not used to the weather being like this.

• 7:05Fearne Cotton?

  What's AC like in Paris? Have they got it there?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:07Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  No. No. Just doesn't really exist. It's just very sweaty.

• 7:12Fearne Cotton?

  We just don't do it in Europe. What's wrong with us?

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Because it used to be just like a calm 20 degrees, tops 25 maybe.

• 7:20Fearne Cotton?

  I had the fan on last night in the bedroom, just sort of blowing an inch from my face. I'm still too hot.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  I've heard that's really bad for you.

• 7:27Fearne Cotton?

  Probably awful.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  But it feels great.

• 7:29Fearne Cotton?

  It feels great, especially when you talk for a living. It's not good for the throat. But it's too fucking hot.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  It is way hot and I, yeah, I've had to sleep with the AC on in the hotel, which I never do because I wake up with a croak.

• 7:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, not good. Not good. Is it nice being back in England?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's nice to be back. Nice to speak your own language.

• 7:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. How, your French is on point, right?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  I don't know about on point. Generous.

• 7:53Fearne Cotton?

  I watched the BBC doc and I was like, you're just chatting in French?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  I feel I'm receiving in French. But sending is different. Yeah. It's like three to five working days to, I think I've got a good understanding, I think. I would like to think.

• 8:07Fearne Cotton?

  It's such a fit language as well. Like it's such a good one. Like it's just hot. It's just a hot language.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  I'm really happy if people think I'm hot because I speak French.

• 8:15Fearne Cotton?

  Speaking French is the best. Like if you're going to learn a language.

• 8:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's so hot. Like, keep it going, I would say.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  No, definitely. I think also English is not as widely spoken in France as maybe what I anticipated.

• 8:28Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  So really had not a lot of choice.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  And also anyone who does speak English, they're like, oh, I'll speak English with you. And I'm like, no, please speak French with me. Because I want to learn. And they're like, yeah, but I want to learn English. And I'm like, see, this isn't as mutually beneficial as one might.

• 8:44Fearne Cotton?

  No, exactly. But I think you do have to live somewhere to proper. Integrate language, certainly if you're not a kid. When you're a kid, I think our brains are so malleable. But now you've got to be there. Like every year when I go to Spain or Ibiza. I'm like, this is the year where I'm going to learn Spanish. I've been saying it for 20 years.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:01Fearne Cotton?

  And when I'm there, I'm so enthusiastic and I'm going into the shops and I'm using like GCSE Spanish. And then when I get home, I do nothing for 11 months and then I go back and I try again. You've got to live there. You're doing the right thing.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Immersion is key. Are you a proper Ibiza girly?

• 9:13Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. I just went last weekend.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  You did?

• 9:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  I've been once. The girls love Ibiza.

• 9:19Fearne Cotton?

  Love it.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Like off season, all I hear is, I'm going Ibiza.

• 9:22Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I guess because your schedule is so intense when you're in season.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:27Fearne Cotton?

  And you have to be incredibly disciplined, but you do need to count that, I'm imagining.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I think it's healthy, healthy to have a balance. I don't think there's much work-life balance in football, to be honest. As in many industries. But I think it's just nice to go somewhere where it's hot and I'm not really a massive party girl, but I do love music.

• 9:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  So when I was there last year, there was a lot of saxophone playing and I really enjoyed that.

• 9:53Fearne Cotton?

  Live sax?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Live sax.

• 9:54Fearne Cotton?

  With a DJ or just like live sax?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, just live sax by the pool. And I was like, this is pretty good, actually.

• 10:02Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  I, I, I felt a bit low and then the sax came out and I thought, I can dance.

• 10:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  I, I, I can get a boogie onto this. Yeah.

• 10:09Fearne Cotton?

  And will you really let yourself relax when you're not in season? Will you eat what you want, drink what you want? Or are you still kind of have, you have that mindset of, you know, you're an international athlete?

• 10:20Speaker 02

  It's definitely different. Like, so I think, obviously I've internationally retired a few weeks ago. So now I've got a little bit more time on my hands where I can hopefully be physically and mentally rested in a really nice way. See family and friends more. So I've been able to go on holiday for, yeah, a little bit of time, kind of escape it all. But I think I get like, kind of fed up of that, if you know what I mean. Cause I'm so used to that routine. I like miss structure. So for, for a few weeks, it's fine. Or I've never had more than 12 days off, I think consecutively.

• 10:51Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 10:52Speaker 02

  So, yeah. So this was like the first time I went away for two weeks and also had a Travel day each side, which was just, it was a luxury.

• 11:01Fearne Cotton?

  But could you actually mentally relax? Because I think when you're used to being on the go, it's very hard.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  I think one of my worst traits as a person is that I can't switch off. I try, but then, and I'm like, right, I'm gonna put my phone to the side, I'm off socials, I'm just gonna put it there and then I end up giving a little.

• 11:19Fearne Cotton?

  It's hard, isn't it?

• 11:19Speaker 02

  I'm thinking of something and then I'll, I'll text someone about something and I'll try and arrange it, but it is hard to do.

• 11:25Fearne Cotton?

  And do you work out when you're on holiday still? So keep fitness up?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  I, I try and listen to my body, I think, a little bit more now, especially as I'm a little bit more experienced, let's say. Yeah, I try and just, okay, my, my body is wanting a little bit more, my body's really enjoying it. And then, yeah, get back on the horse, kind of gradually, because again, as you're a bit more experienced, I find that pre-season becomes a little bit harder to start.

• 11:46Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  So like, if you give your body too much time to chill, you, you really suffer with the doms.

• 11:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 11:54Fearne Cotton?

  I even find that like, I'm in my 40s and if I haven't been running for a week and then I go on a run, I'm like, oh, I'm like the Tin Man. Like, everything's like clunky and hurts. It's just like, what is going on?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's everyday occurrence as a footballer, I feel. Things click and you're like, oh, I didn't know that could click. And you're like, right, on to the next dive, on to the next exercise.

• 12:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, it's so intense. I mean, you just said that you very recently announced your international retirement.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:18Fearne Cotton?

  How are you feeling about everything?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  I feel, I feel good. I think, obviously, in total transparency, it, you know, at the time, it, it's a very hard decision to make. And I think to announce it was, you know, it'd been in the works for a while. But obviously maybe other people weren't experiencing it the way I was experiencing it. And I think that as well, like, I'm quite private, like, I keep everything in. And I try and like internalize it and rationalize it and then, yeah, I felt like it was the right decision and I, I mean, I still think that now. I think maybe, you know, it was, it was shocking to, to some people. But I think when you've been having those conversations behind closed doors and, yeah, I was obviously able to tell the girls in person, they were so supportive and, you know, say goodbye.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  And like, these are girls that I like grew up with and have spent so much time with, so many amazing memories with, so. Yeah, it was it was sad, but I think it's it's the right thing and I'm really looking forward to supporting them this summer.

• 13:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, will it be slightly painful watching the Euros? I mean, it's it's a hard thing, even though you've got that autonomy, you've made that decision.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:21Fearne Cotton?

  It's bittersweet to then sit at home and watch it.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know how I'm gonna feel because I'm hoping to get out there.

• 13:26Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  I'm hoping to get out there and watch a few games, kind of depending on preseason and kind of where I'm gonna be. But I think like, like I I think the girls are, first of all, phenomenal team. I think they're gonna do really, really well. So I'm really looking forward to seeing that. I don't know, like, I feel really okay now, but I think. It depends because the time of the announcement, I think there was like, it was difficult and it was painful, but mainly because of. Part of the reaction and sort of, some people were amazingly, and the girls, like the way that they hadn't had my back and. That meant the absolute world to me, like they really didn't need to do that, but I'm like, just meant the world. And I think that the way.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was villainised in a way, like that probably was was a bit bit hard to read, like to see things and read things, but it's more hard, like, you know, you'll get it, like. It's more like what my friends and family see.

• 14:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  And then the way they interact with me and I'm like, oh, I know you've seen something. And then I'm like. Upset for them because I'm like, you didn't choose this, you've got to now deal with this. And. I'm then gutted for them and then I'm like not really wanting to know what's being said, but then it's kind of coming out and coming. So I feel like that's hard, but in. In the end, I feel like it was the right decision, so I don't want it to be painful watching them, but I won't know until it's there. Because I think I thought that, I think I've I felt almost a bit of relief when they, because it had been so long coming.

• 14:47Fearne Cotton?

  Course.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  And it got to put like mentally, physically, I was just like, right, I've given everything here. I think watching them, hopefully I'm gonna feel like. At peace, super proud, patriotic, I can watch it from a different angle and, yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to it.

• 15:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, good. Like you say, it's all that exterior noise, which is. You know, at the end of the day, what other people think of us is nothing to do with us, but it's so hard not to take this stuff personally, especially when you've got a public facing. Job or role and everyone's got an opinion, everyone thinks they know, you know, what's going on in your mind.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:22Fearne Cotton?

  And it's just a load of old bollocks at the end of the day. It is just noise, but it's very hard in the moment to differentiate that and to. Still keep peace with your decision, but I think when you've made a decision in your head, or even if you've got like a whisper of it in your head, the longer you leave it, that voice gets louder.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:41Fearne Cotton?

  And louder and louder. And you've got to go on that instinct of what you know is right for you. Have you always been quite sort of gut led with your decision making, would you say?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Um, I, I think, I think like my whole thing is about being unapologetically yourself. And I think the, you sometimes have to make decisions that maybe people don't understand. And there's always going to be people that disagree with you and I'm okay with that. I'm okay with not being everybody's cup of tea.

• 16:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  I think the hardest thing about, as you say, being public facing is when you see stuff that you're like, I just know that isn't true.

• 16:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  And then I'm like, what I really struggle with.

• 16:13Fearne Cotton?

  Makes me really fucking angry.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I, I'm like, right, well, do I need to correct that? And like, go out and, and say the, the actual truth. But then the other part of me is like, I know that, like for this situation, I've behaved with professionalism and integrity throughout. So the last thing I want to do is then create an even worse situation for the girls that they've already had to deal with.

• 16:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, it was always going to be noisy at the start, like, let's not continue it. Let's leave it. The time to talk will come. Now is not it. The girls are heading into a major tournament. But I think on a personal note, when you're, your whole thing is about being honest and truthful and like, you know, unapologetically who I am, then I start question, again, another internal struggle. There's a theme here of like, well, am I being unapologetically myself? Like, am I actually going against who my, who I am by not saying it? And then it's like, yeah, but sometimes you're being like baited to say stuff. And then, you know, your agent gets calls from people, you know, you know, the drill. The, I won't, I won't.

• 17:11Fearne Cotton?

  I hate that phone call. I look at my phone, I think, I'm not fucking picking that up. No way.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  You give me an exclusive, I won't post this. And you're like, no. So, yeah.

• 17:19Fearne Cotton?

  So stressful.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  It, it, yeah, it's not easy. It's, it's, I like to see it as it's a hazard of the job. It's sometimes the price of success.

• 17:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  And I'm so grateful for. Everything we've achieved as a team, all the opportunities I've had and yeah, now stepping away from that and allowing them to, I felt it was my responsibility to make that call. And yeah, I'm looking forward to what the future holds.

• 17:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, you said on Instagram, not having international football in your life is scary, but it is exciting. It's both things at the same time.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Two things can be true for sure. I think it's the unknown. It's stepping into something that's new and different. But I think it will be, football's hard, like mentally, physically, it's a lot as you get older, you're trying to manage your body more and more. And I feel in a really good spot, like physically, I feel, I think it may be as good as I can be in this situation mentally. I think time will tell. Yeah, I think, yeah, I'm looking forward to it hopefully. And I'm hoping I get to spend more time with family and friends. And you sacrifice a lot over the years as well. So I'm hoping that'll be really refreshing. And I'm looking forward to diving into club football 110% and hopefully having more success on the pitch there.

• 18:37Fearne Cotton?

  It's also really exciting and I think important. I remember there was a boss who worked at Radio One a long time ago and he did a speech when he left Radio One and it always stuck with me. And I'm not the sort of person that like, things don't stick in my brain for very long, but this always stuck with me. And he was saying it's really important to have chapters that you want to get to, hopefully in old age, and look back and go, there was this chapter, then there was this chapter. And it wasn't just sort of like one long merger of life. There are sort of these defining moments where you do shake things up, you do try to do things differently, or you do challenge yourself in different ways. Was that something conscious with this decision, would you say?

• 19:13Speaker 02

  I think not so much with this decision. I think moving to Paris, that was a, that was a big thing. Like especially, maybe it's a bit uncommon to do it in your 30s, like when you may be settling down. And, you know, I had five incredible years at Manchester United, super settled there. So to make the decision to step out of that new country, new language, new way of training, philosophy of the game. I think that was the part of stepping out of my comfort zone. I want to challenge myself. I want to learn. I want to, I want to push myself here because I, you know, I agree. I think great things happen outside your comfort zone. I think that's when you learn more. And as a player, I think it gives you like a completely different stimulus. But also as a person, it teaches you a lot about yourself.

• 19:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. What do you think you've learned about yourself from this move? Because like you say, it's not just the game. It's you that you're in a completely different country, new culture. You don't know anyone there.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  I mean, first and foremost, I didn't think I could work harder before I went. I was like, no, I'm like, I'm at capacity. And then I think I've added even more to my plate. But I'm really enjoying like, I feel I wake up in the morning and I'm like, I'm, I'm challenged. The training challenges me. It's a completely different approach to things. And I think it's added different things to my game and that excites me. I think that's what I've learned about myself. If I'm learning something, if I feel challenged, then I feel fulfilled, I think, in a way. Like if I'm working on something and I think that's, that's what I've learned of myself. I can, I can deal with more adversity.

• 20:42Fearne Cotton?

  And would you say like the flip side of that, if you hadn't had this big life switch up, would have been complacency?

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that was a big thing that, that drove me. I think my biggest fear in life, apart from flying, I'm not a massive fan of spiders. No, I hate flying.

• 20:57Fearne Cotton?

  So you're Eurotunnel all the way at the moment?

• 20:58Speaker 02

  I love the Eurostar. Yeah. It's, it's fabulous. Quite expensive though.

• 21:03Fearne Cotton?

  Bloody expensive.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Really expensive, like not ideal. But I, I've, I have to fly with, with football. Like, I think it's helped me get over my fear a little bit. But I'm really not a great flyer, but I used to have to take medication to fly. Don't have to do that.

• 21:18Fearne Cotton?

  That's good.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Currently, touch wood.

• 21:20Fearne Cotton?

  Good.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Is that wood?

• 21:21Fearne Cotton?

  No, metal, but just touch it anyway.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  Touch metal. So that's great. And yeah, you just sometimes have to do things that you don't want to do. But I think, yeah, complacency, that, that freaks me out. Like. Biggest fear is dying, sorry morbid.

• 21:36Fearne Cotton?

  No, I agree.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Maxing out on every single ounce of potential. I like, I can look at myself in the mirror and go, I made that decision, didn't quite work out the way I thought it was gonna do, no problem, but at least I was bold enough to make it.

• 21:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  At least I had the female balls to grab life, seize the day and go for it. You know what? I'm okay with that. Not being brave enough to make a decision that I think would be good for me. That's what that I, I, I, I'm the person who has to look at myself in the mirror every day. Like when you, the right decision doesn't always feel good. Like the right decision can be really difficult, really sad. Two things can be true at the same time, but it can still be good for you and good for others as well. And I think that's definitely complacency. Uh, probably the biggest insult, you can say, world of social media, you can say a lot about me. Complacent, oh, I probably shouldn't say that, but it really gets under my skin. Like I'm a grafter.

• 22:29Fearne Cotton?

  I hear you. I feel the same. I don't like that feeling of coasting. Or like, I'm just going through the motions. I'm like you, I wanna be, you know, pushing myself and trying new things, even if I'm doing it badly. But like, setting a challenge.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 22:45Fearne Cotton?

  You're trying.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:46Fearne Cotton?

  This is also the second episode where we need to land on the female equivalent of grabbing life by the balls. We had this with Ellie Simmons, it's like, grabbing life by the tits, what are we doing? What are we grabbing?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, what are we grabbing?

• 22:58Fearne Cotton?

  I'm grabbing something. Yeah, grabbing something, but why is it just like the balls? Fuck the balls, like we need.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  I want a female equivalent of that piece.

• 23:05Fearne Cotton?

  We're gonna brainstorm that, we'll put it out to the listeners. If you have any ideas, do let us know.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  TBC.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 23:42Speaker 06

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel.

• 23:43Speaker 07

  Is he Adam?

• 23:44Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mays, what is it?

• 23:47Speaker 07

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 23:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 23:49Speaker 07

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 23:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 24:01Speaker 07

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 24:03Fearne Cotton?

  Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 24:09Speaker 07

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 24:15Fearne Cotton?

  You've been on just such an incredible rollercoaster throughout your career with immense pressure almost always because that is the nature of elite sport. Right. Is that there is always pressure. And I think, you know, we've had Leah on the podcast, Serena on the podcast, especially with with women's football, there is just this added layer of pressure where there was zero visibility forever. And then all of a sudden you guys came along and we're all talking about it. And that's amazing, but the pressure comes from you have to keep at the top of your game and succeeding to be visible. So that's something that I think, you know, men's football don't have to even think about. Everyone watches it. Everyone knows all the players and the teams.

• 24:57Fearne Cotton?

  You guys have had to create the space to go, hello, we're over here being insanely talented at what we do and working really hard. And you've got that topped with being a goalkeeper, which is again, a sort of an untalked about position in the game. Did you feel that pressure when you were part of the international team? Or do you, maybe you still feel that now playing for a club team that, you know, that visibility is important for future generations of women and just women even outside of sport. I think it felt quite visceral to me, you guys winning the Euros. It was just like, fuck, oh, I've got these feelings and sort of like rage and joy and I was crying and it's like, what is this? I can't even fucking play football. But it's like, it's so much more than football.

• 25:42Speaker 07

  Yeah. I, I think the-

• 25:45Speaker 02

  I mean, that is so much in that question that I feel like.

• 25:48Fearne Cotton?

  I know, it wasn't even a question, just stuff.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  No, but when you were talking, I was just like, yes, yes, I have so much to contribute to this conversation. Um, yeah, I think from the goalkeeping point of view, a big thing that I've wanted to do is make goalkeeping cool.

• 25:59Fearne Cotton?

  Which you've done, Tick.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Thanks, I'm trying.

• 26:02Fearne Cotton?

  No, done, done it, done it.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  There's still stuff to do, but I think that goalkeeping isn't, is a position, which I guess there are a lot of similarities between that as a, as a topic and women's football as a whole. It's not looked at, it's, it's, yeah, it's overlooked, like all the big brands and businesses, their marketing strategies are geared around the sexy strikers and the, the fast players and the wide players and yeah, that hasn't been my, my life and, and my position. So I think getting, yeah, trying to get some equality in that area and some visibility in that area. It's really important because there are a lot of kids out there, young people, old people as well, who want to, who play the game and play goalkeeper and don't get the respect that they deserve.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  And they deserve to be represented. So if I can do my small part in that, then I'm absolutely over the moon and, and yeah, represent goalkeeping in some way. And yeah, like women's football as a whole, for sure. I think it's been very new. Like the success over the last kind of two, three years, it's definitely been building. I mean, you see women's sport on a global scale at this point, killing it, like the WNBA, crazy.

• 27:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  And I just think it's on a, a really great train. And it's like, get on or get out because it's moving with or without you anyway. Yeah, lo- long may it continue. That we've come a long way. There's still a lot of barriers and stuff to break down. But I think the success over the last few years has definitely been a massive help in getting us in the room to have a conversation.

• 27:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Giving us a platform, giving us a voice and giving us, yeah, a bit more respect.

• 27:31Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I watched again, I mean, obviously I watched the Euros when it was happening, but I watched you guys winning again in the run up to today. And I had the exact same reaction. I just wept and it's like a sort of. It's like an ancestral thing of like women that came before us.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:48Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking doing it like, you know, I can't play football, as I said, and I'm not obviously on the England team, but I felt like part of it, like.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  No, for sure.

• 27:54Fearne Cotton?

  This is for women and it just felt so huge and, and just like deep within me, like inexplicable. Can't articulate what that is, but just tears, crying and crying. It was just magnificent.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  But it's, I think that's, that's what was for me, the most amazing thing about it. I mean, that was my first proper trophy, I would say that I, that I won. I think that's, I'm pretty sure it was like, and maybe, maybe won like the school trophy, but I don't think, I think that was my first proper senior trophy, which to do that with your country is unbelievable. But I think that was the beauty of it of one, it was standing on the shoulders of the women that came before us.

• 28:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  It was a whole life's work from like an individual point of view, but all of us together, like we've all been working at different ages, different experience levels, different journeys and paths to come together and achieve this amazing thing. Like it would, it was, it was emotional and then it meant so much to so many people in all different walks of life for so many reasons. And that's the best, I think that's been the best thing about it. I always thought that winning the trophy would be the thing that I loved the most and held on to the most. And don't get me wrong, it's fantastic.

• 29:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  But what it actually represented and the movement that it created and the, the connection it created for people and the most, the inspiration, that for me was the best part of, of being able to achieve that.

• 29:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it was a cultural shift.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  It was, it was massive.

• 29:16Fearne Cotton?

  And it felt seismic, you know, it, it felt fucking huge.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:21Fearne Cotton?

  Did you, this might be a silly question, but did you watch the game back on TV after? Do you sit there and watch it and go, bloody hell?

• 29:27Speaker 02

  No, I haven't actually ever watched the final back. I don't think, I've watched, I've watched parts of it back for sure. I've watched highlights, I've watched bits, but like, it's mad actually that you've just said that. I never even thought of it that way. But obviously all of the games, when you're playing them, you watch back. Well, I always watch all my games back. I watch all my clips back. I then tend to go through it with the goalkeeper coach. Okay, what did I do? Whether win, lose, draw.

• 29:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  What went well? What can I improve on? I've got a question about this and obviously that's part of your development as a player. Obviously after we won that game, I mean, I just burst into tears sobbing my little heart out. But then you got you, you're off partying, we're in Times Square, living it up. You know, we had a lovely like family and friends team event. Then we had a team event just as like girls and a few staff. Amazing. And then you go off on holiday and you're like, oh my God, this is amazing. And it's just like, but I've never watched that. I've never watched. I probably should watch it back.

• 30:20Fearne Cotton?

  Please watch it back. It's like the most joyful thing you'll ever see.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Definitely watch like parts of the game back and especially the, the latter bit of extra time, like that whole scenario.

• 30:30Fearne Cotton?

  Terrifying.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Goosebumps. At the time, I, I actually did the maths wrong of how many minutes we had left in my head because I just couldn't concentrate anymore. It was so hot as well.

• 30:39Fearne Cotton?

  So intense.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  So hot in Wembley that day. And obviously Chloe got the winner. Oh, what a day.

• 30:46Fearne Cotton?

  What a day.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Tops were off.

• 30:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I just love it. If I were you, I would have watched back like a highlights reel of all the best saves I'd done on repeat. And I'd just stare at myself going, I am so great. Like I am so amazing.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Maybe I should do that when I'm having a down day.

• 31:00Fearne Cotton?

  Jump I just did. Look at that. Like it's just a phenomenal thing, a phenomenal thing. Would you say, cause you know, you've said already in this chat, you wanted to elevate goalkeeping.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:10Fearne Cotton?

  You wanted to help put women's football on the map.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:12Fearne Cotton?

  More than done both of those things. Do you feel proud? It's quite a strange thing to land on feeling proud and to admit it, especially as a British person. Would you say you are?

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I'm immensely proud of everything, of everything that, that we've achieved, like absolutely crazy. I think it's hard for me to look back at what I've done personally, I think, because I feel it's not done. I think maybe I'll never be good at looking back and I don't know. But I think it is important to celebrate those wins and those moments. And I think one of the things I did do well in fairness to myself was I. Always went into every tournament and game that I played, like, this could be my last one. Like, this could be the absolute last, so be present, make the most of every single moment and like, remember what it feels like.

• 31:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's so important.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  And one of my friends who's, um, I think she's actually the most decorated footballer of all time, actually, Bebette Peter, I'm not, I'll have to, I'll have to check. But she's German player and I played with her in Wolfsburg. And she told me, this is gonna sound really dodgy, but I tried to explain it on a panel recently and then it went really west, so please just give me a try. She told me like, don't forget to smell the grass. And you can imagine the direction that went into, but I didn't think of that way when she said to me. And I was like.

• 32:28Fearne Cotton?

  I get it.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  This, you're like, yeah, that I need to be completely in it, remember what all your senses are doing in this moment.

• 32:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Because the reality of it is, is playing for your country, like, I mean, yeah, my, that chapter for me is now over, like, there's, it, it, it goes so quick.

• 32:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  But it, you know, and so I wanted it to just, I don't know, I think, you know, football consumes my life, it's, I eat, sleep, breathe, repeat it. And I tried to just, yeah, throw myself into it. So I think that's what I did do really well, but looking back and being like, oh yeah, I, I think that was a good.

• 33:00Fearne Cotton?

  No, I think what you're talking about is more important, the way that you've done it and having those moments of being really present is more important than anything.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:07Fearne Cotton?

  We've had countless people on here, if I pluck one from my brain now, like, when, when Jon Bon Jovi came on, he said.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Name drop and a half, that one.

• 33:14Fearne Cotton?

  Clank.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Get that in there.

• 33:15Fearne Cotton?

  I will do some more of those during this interview.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Can't wait.

• 33:19Fearne Cotton?

  He said he wishes that he'd enjoyed all of it more, like, especially in the eighties, but they were peak success because I'm imagining there was, you know, a hell of a lot of excess, which obviously is not in your arena. But there is perhaps a desire, and I even feel this in my own little way, that you just wanna get to the end so you feel the relief of it's done. I've done it and it went well and fuck, you know, and actually what I tried to do now, even in a situation like this, is every now and again throughout a conversation go, oh, I'm really enjoying this chat. This is really cool. And like, have that actual cognitive thought of, this, I'm so lucky that I get to do this, this is so cool, rather than. So I get to the end, I go and get the kids from school and then I need to go and fucking feed the tortoise and blah, blah, blah, you know, just go on and on looking for the relief.

• 34:01Fearne Cotton?

  Whereas actually, those little glimmers of, I am here, stood on the football pitch, people are shouting, this is glorious, that's so important.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I couldn't agree more with what you've, and I think that the, there's been a lot of, yeah, difficulties and obstacles in my journey. But I think that is maybe the biggest thing that I'm the most grateful for. The adversity, what it taught me, wouldn't wish what happened to me on, on anyone, because it took me to some really dark places. But the reality of it is, I mean, also, it's just football, like life happens, that was really deep, but you can find yourself in dark places for one reason or another. And I think that I ended up there and ended up coming out of that the other side. But what it taught me was, life happens quickly and it changes quickly and everything is temporary.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  And if you can just smell the grass in this instant, like if you can do that, like. It, it just made everything that I did so much more enjoyable and so much more memorable. Like I remember in the Euros, sometimes I'd just go outside and like, sit in the sun at base camp and read my book. And I like remember that because I was deliberately trying to remember everything. Like, oh, isn't this amazing, isn't this amazing that we've got like a barista here and I can just have like a coffee and it's good coffee and I'm gonna sit in the sun and I'm gonna enjoy this book. And I'm doing that while representing my country and I'm, I've just finished training and the sunshine, I don't know, like, I think that's the thing that.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  The difficulties that I've had, like, you know, had to face, I'm glad that it taught me that.

• 35:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt. Oh my god, there has to be something to counter that darkness that you feel this. You know, if you're lucky to get through it and I'm in the same boat as you, I had a dark patch and I'm, you know, out of it and it's not all plain sailing, obviously. But you do, I think, come away with a sense of gratitude for.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  One, that, oh my god, I could not agree more. That was the biggest thing of, uh, like I was speaking to, I'd, I'd like did therapy and stuff like that.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  The biggest difference between before and where I am now is I can just like FaceTime my gran and I can have a coffee and I can speak to my friends and family and I can go for a walk. And I know it sounds really stupid, but like, I think if you put your life a foundation of that in gratitude, then it makes life so much more enjoyable.

• 36:31Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Pre that, before the twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, I would be like running through the weeks. I'm like, right, okay, I need to get this training session done. Then I've got that game. When that's over, then I'm on to the next game. And okay, I'm not playing in that games, but maybe I'll play the next one. And time was just flying and I wasn't enjoying things as much. I didn't realise I wasn't enjoying things as much, but I was just like wishing time away in essence.

• 36:55Fearne Cotton?

  And also, I guess you're then putting the majority of your happiness on an outcome. So you can only feel happy if you're picked for the team, if you then win the game, if you save every goal that comes your way, that's where your happiness is placed. Whereas actually, if it's more on, I got to FaceTime my nan, guaranteed happiness.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Right. And on the process of becoming.

• 37:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Like, as opposed to, I think before, I was chasing perfection, I was chasing the outcome one million percent. This is only a good thing if I achieve this. And I was very, I had to, you know, it's very common to write down goals, like, I mean, life, business, football's another thing. And for a while, I like journaled and wrote down, like, this is what I want to achieve. And I stopped doing that because as soon as I was writing it down and I was like, right, I want to achieve this. And then in my brain as a competitor, I'm like, I want to achieve this by this age or by this point. I was, everything was like a disappointment.

• 37:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Because, you know, as an ambitious person, you're setting these goals and you're falling short. And then it's seen as a failure. And then I, yeah, felt like everything I was doing was not enough. It wasn't good enough. And I think ironically, when I started figuring out, okay, who am I? Who do I want to be? What's important to me? Who am I as a player? And I stopped trying to be everything that maybe. I thought I should be and what other people thought I should be. Everything started to fall into place much, much better.

• 38:21Fearne Cotton?

  Isn't that an amazing epiphany, that moment of changing the parameters of success to suit what you want them to be? It's not like an outside decision for other people to go, you are a success because, and you've done that anyway. Do you know what I mean? It's not like you have to worry about that so much. But I think when you work out your own value system and what you think success as, like, yes, success is sitting in the sun, having a coffee with a book. Like, that is a beautiful moment of life.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:52Fearne Cotton?

  And there was, we talked, we talked about this on the podcast the other day, but I think it's called something like deferred happiness syndrome, where happiness lives in the future. So I'll be happy when we win the Euros. I will be happy when whatever. Whereas actually, like, life is now, like, it's now, it's literally as we're sat in these chairs, it is happening now. And I think it must be incredibly complicated to apply that to the world of sporting, where outcome is sort of everything. It's what the crowd are clinging on to, it's what the commentary team are talking about, everyone's talking about the results. So I think it must take a hell of a lot of effort to not attach still a lot of your self-worth and happiness to that outcome. It's hard.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think it happened almost out of feeling so beaten down. I think I just, that was then my, right, let's put one foot in front of the other and let's just see. Like, that, I'm so detached from the outcome of stuff because it was so far away. So then I think when I then came back into the squad and was then playing at a really top level for the national team with extreme amounts of pressure, my big thing was, okay, now don't change what got you here. And I think that was my big thing, that I, that was the only thing I was consciously thinking about. So, for example, this is going to sound really goofy, when I wasn't in the national team, I had to figure out, and kind of links back to what you're saying earlier about women's football.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  It's different from men's football, it's different from the men's world. I was in a position where I felt my football career as a whole was coming to an end. And I was like, right, what am I going to do? Like, I've got a business degree, like, but do I just dive straight into a corporate job? Like, where am I going from this? And it was just a. A crazy time of, right, I need to speak to people. What am I gonna do? Spoke to who's now my agent and how can I, I wanted to be a pundit back then, a commentator back then. And so I was like, right, then I was being fed back that I don't have a big enough profile to do commentary at the level I wanted, like, well, just on TV. Getting any opportunity was impossible. Yeah.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  You need to work away, go, like, go away. And so I started working with, with, with someone who told me to start doing TikTok. I was like mortified. I was like, I'm not a dancer. Um, little did I know. Little did you know. Lie. Um, so that happened. And so I was kind of working on different projects like that. Um, doing a little bit of TikTok, trying to inspire young people to get into football, young girls to get into football via TikTok. That was all what it was about. My, yeah, my agent was like, you, all these people that you want to inspire, they're on TikTok and you're not on TikTok, so it makes no sense. Anyway, so that happened and I ended up building quite a big profile on there. Yeah. Unexpectedly. But I enjoyed doing it because nobody was bothered, no one was asked about what I was doing.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  I was out of the fold. I wasn't playing for the national team. I was just minding my own business, playing for United, focused on that. And then like, okay, clearly I'm, I'm going into something else. Then I ended up getting a contract extension and then I got back into the national team and suddenly my career just went on a completely different trajectory than what I expected. And my big thing was I'm not gonna stop what I'm doing, because first of all, it's given me a lot of joy, it's given me a way to switch off. But I'm not gonna stop what got me here. I'm not gonna stop showing my personality just because now I'm in more of the public eye and I'm gonna be open to more criticism. I'm, I'm gonna continue to, and there was definitely a moment where I was like, right, am I, am I gonna stop doing this stuff?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  And I was like, no, this is who I am. Like, um, the reality of women's sport, which I think we don't acknowledge a lot, is it's not millions of pounds, you know, per week, per year, where you're set for life. That's not the reality and that's okay, you know. As as much as that would be fantastic, that's not what people are asking for, you know, that that's not what we've we're campaigning for, asking for ever. We just want to be respected more in the conversation. Correct. Equal opportunity. Except it and it's a process. Anyway, long, long, long story short, but I really had a conscious choice of, okay, I I need to continue doing this. It's important. We're female athletes.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  In order to have longevity in my life and be able to, like, football is short. You retire before forty. Yeah. In best case, I mean, some of the some players in a very rare occasions have retired in their early forties. Like, it it's not, it's temporary. Yeah. So you have to prepare for later life. Now, we've been afforded some of these amazing commercial opportunities where we're able to prepare a little bit better for that. We're not like these, you know, this this crazy life doesn't last forever. So, yeah, made a conscious choice. Don't know if that that was a real waffly answer.

• 43:31Speaker 03

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• 43:47Speaker 04

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 44:18Speaker 07

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher. And I'm Marco Bortella. And this is Boots Off.

• 44:25Speaker 07

  We are friends who've spent a decade.

• 44:26Speaker 06

  Together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans. And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday, just search for Boots Off.

• 44:55Fearne Cotton?

  I think what is so interesting, listening to you talk, is during that dark patch mentally, it's very hard to feel any sense of motivation. I'm talking personally, I don't know what's going through your head, but it's hard to feel motivated. Often your confidence is hugely not, so you feel terrified to try something new.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 45:16Fearne Cotton?

  But it seems that there is a huge part of your personality that is always going to look for the chink of light. It's always going to look for, well, like you say, I'll try TikTok. And you could have just completely gone, either I don't want to do that, that is so not where my head's at right now, or just I haven't got it in me. But you're looking for solutions, you're looking for ways to move forward, even when the path doesn't seem clear. Is that, that's just part of your personality?

• 45:43Speaker 02

  I think so. I think, I think probably that goes back to my childhood of, I was thrown into any activity that I wanted to do, which I was so fortunate with that, like, it was, I think it was kind of, my parents took the mentality of like, throw mud, see what sticks.

• 45:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  And so I was, I tried dancing, badminton, swimming, like, you know, and I know not everyone has the opportunity to try these things. And I was very fortunate to be able to do that and figure out like what I liked and what I didn't. But the reality of that is you're not good at everything. And like I was a dreadful swimmer, like, there's a fantastic story of me going to one of my first ever, like, Swim meets, you know, swimming competitions and these swimmers would be going four AM every morning before school.

• 46:25Fearne Cotton?

  I had a kid like that at school, yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Very, very committed.

• 46:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Fantastic. I was more of a, oh, I wanna go to kind of keep my fitness. Football, I think it's really good, like strength work, body weight work. My job is throwing my body around. The connect made sense. So I went on like six o'clock of an evening and I would do my best, but you know, I wasn't competent. So why the hell I would go into a competition, I don't know, because I wasn't competing for anything. I was competing for nothing in that race. And I don't know what, what stroke it was. I feel it must have been butterfly.

• 46:55Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I can't even do butterfly. That's impossible.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Again, why butterfly?

• 46:58Fearne Cotton?

  Sense to me butterfly.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Why butterfly? The only the most complicated stroke. What are you doing?

• 47:02Fearne Cotton?

  So hard.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Doesn't make any sense.

• 47:03Fearne Cotton?

  Wiggly body thing.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  What, what is it?

• 47:04Fearne Cotton?

  What is that?

• 47:05Speaker 02

  The coordination wasn't coordinating. Anyway, so it was at like the university pool in Nottingham, which I recall being massive, like, you know, it's not just like your local.

• 47:17Fearne Cotton?

  Olympic pool.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, not, not a leisure.

• 47:19Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  No, not a leisure centre, which I was used to.

• 47:22Fearne Cotton?

  There's no jacuzzi on the side.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Absolutely. No, there wasn't. It wasn't. There wasn't a get out, but you know, there weren't stairs I could just get out of. There was these diamond. Anyway. So I was in the pool and I kid you not, this length was, this, this race was two lengths and I was almost an entire length behind everybody else. I'm not, this is not an exaggeration. You can ring my parents and ask. And when I tell you that the crowd, which I'm assuming was mostly parents, was giving it the odd.

• 47:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, she's still swimming, guys.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  She's still going and I got a clap on the way in and my parents always say to me, you were nearly drowning from laughing because you just.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  And I was never bothered by stuff like that, like not, not being afraid to try, but I think that's because I was put in situations where wasn't very good at stuff, was prepared to give it a go. You know, the, the attitude, I had a brother and a younger brother and a younger sister. I still do have a younger brother and a younger sister. And I grew up in, in with them and it was like, you know, just, just have a go, just try. And so I do think that's part of my personality, but I think that was part of the difficulty of the darkness is I'd lost all of that, like didn't wanna leave the house, like, and, and it, and it is hard and you know, it manifests itself in different ways for different people, but I was like, who am I? Like, what am I doing? Like, what is the point of this life at this? Like, what, what is my direction? And I'd never felt so

• 48:40Speaker 02

  purposeless before. I think I'm very driven by.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  What aligns me, I wanna do things that align with my values, I wanna work with people who align with my values. And I suddenly just didn't really know what I was doing or who I was.

• 48:55Fearne Cotton?

  Was the entirety of that dark patch attributed to being dropped from the England team? Was that what triggered it?

• 49:02Speaker 02

  I think that's what triggered it. I think, again, through education and through some, you know, talking to the psychologists, I think. I realised it was an accumulation of things that I'd been burying for a long time. And a particular highlight was, wow, you've had to be resilient. And when you, I guess you push stuff down, we all do, we're all guilty of it in different ways. And I think the, I'd buried stuff for a while that I'd had to address. And I think it just triggered a lot of stuff.

• 49:34Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. And so at this point, you're potentially thinking of quitting football, feeling a bit untethered, not quite sure where you're going in life.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:43Fearne Cotton?

  And how the hell do you begin to climb out of that? Was it Serena then reinstating your position in the team that helped you?

• 49:50Speaker 02

  No, I mean, that was, that gave, that gave my career a different trajectory, but I feel like my healing was before that. Or my start of healing was so like, I think sort of 2020, that year was pretty dark, Covid definitely didn't help me out. But maybe did help me out in a way, like, I think Covid made it worse because you're on your own. Everyone's in a, I mean, it was scary, it was a scary time, no one knew what was happening. And then the football season stopped, our football season came to an end early, I believe. And I had a period of time where I was on my own at home, like figuring out, like, but then. I think it got worse before it got better, if you know what I mean. So maybe I needed that time to.

• 50:36Fearne Cotton?

  Hit rock bottom?

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe, maybe that's what it was. And I think I proactively did things that I didn't realise I was being proactive about. Subconsciously, I think I felt like I just let myself to rot, like, wasn't particularly bothered about training. Had never felt that way before, I'd never had felt like I wasn't motivated, I've never struggled with motivation. What motivates me in the morning, getting up, being better than I was yesterday, learning something new. And so, yeah, coming out of that, like, I don't, I don't, people ask me, I still don't know how. I think I just took every day as it came and eventually started to get joy, not just from football.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  I think maybe what I did was attribute my entire personality and identity as a person into my identity as an athlete. So then when my athlete life and career and world came crashing down, my world came crashing down. I had to figure out, okay, who am I without football? What do I enjoy? Okay, I enjoy going for a coffee. I enjoy going for a walk. I enjoy FaceTiming my people. And yeah, kind of taking it really, really, yeah, back to basics, I suppose.

• 51:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like you say, you know, there's possibly not one thing that helps you on that trajectory to feeling better. But I think certainly when you're feeling really shit and you don't know who the hell you are. And I had a very similar sort of experience in terms of leaving lots of jobs and going, God, I don't know. Like, what do I even like? I don't know anything anymore. Like, nothing makes sense. It's such an interesting time to start figuring that stuff out and to actually go. And I think I know myself a hell of a lot better because of all of that. But do you say you've got a pretty good sense of self today?

• 52:23Speaker 02

  I think so. I think that taught me a lot about myself and I think I'm, I try to be more clued up now on and conscious of, okay, how do I feel? Like, like, why do I feel that way?

• 52:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  And I, I think that's definitely, try and catch things early, like if, okay, I feel, I feel frustrated. Like, why am I frustrated? And trying to understand where the emotion's coming from, rather than like putting it, because I think I'm a very good compartmentaliser. I think you do need to be as an athlete to cope with that pressure, put things to the side. Because we all have things going on in our personal lives that we have to deal with. Like at the World Cup in twenty twenty three, I think I played some of my best football and I had so much going on off the pitch. And so I think I became a really good compartmentaliser. So, yeah, choosing to, choosing to sit in the darkness sometimes. So like, you know, people will sometimes say like, put a light on, you know, shine light if you, if it feels dark, put a light on.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  It's not as simple as that. Sometimes, no, I need to sit in the darkness. I need to. Allow myself to feel.

• 53:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Don't tell me that I don't feel that way. Don't tell yourself, oh, you're not sad. Get on with it. Get, just get on with it. There's other people out there who have a worse life than you, Mary. Your life isn't that hard. Look at all the amazing things. It's just, okay, I feel this way.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  That is valid. Why do I feel that way?

• 53:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  Process it, feel it, and then I can move on from it. That's personally what feels works best for me.

• 53:51Fearne Cotton?

  Absolutely agree with you. I think when you, I used to deny myself of feeling anything like, because everybody else would go, oh, my god, you're so lucky and this and that. And obviously, people don't know what's really going on in your life or your head or whatever, or whatever's actually true to you. But I used to go, just shut up, just stop it, just get on with it. Like, just be, don't feel like this, just be grateful. And actually, all it does is elongate that period of darkness. It just goes on and on. And the moment I started proper weekly therapy, which I still go to every bloody Wednesday, is allowing myself to feel those feelings, validating them. So I can move through them because I don't want to feel like that. You know, I want to experience it, as you say, sit in the darkness and then it will pass quicker

• 54:32Fearne Cotton?

  rather than beating yourself up for having feelings. I mean, we're humans. And yes, there are baseline things that we are grateful for and lucky to have, whether it's a warm home or food and all of those things. You know, we do not need to be taking those for granted. But you're still allowed to have feelings. You're still, no matter if you've just won the Euros or not, you're still allowed to have feelings. So I think giving yourself permission to really feel shit is so important.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Really, really agree.

• 55:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a big one.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Big one.

• 55:04Fearne Cotton?

  It's a real big one. God, I'm so happy that you've navigated that and that you've come out the other side. And, and also I think, you know, it's, it does give most people, I would say, a new level of confidence because you know yourself better. And it seems like you are in a very confident place of, you know, what you want, we're doing it.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that it, it does give you a, a new sense of self of like. I I know what I, who I am, and I know that some people aren't going to understand that, and I accept that. But as long as I can look at myself in the mirror and know I did everything with the best intentions. Um, I showed up and I was authentic and I tried to do the right things in the right way with integrity. All the, the alignment are important to me. I tried to be fair. I tried to be honest. I think, yeah, that's, that's all you can really do is show up and be the best version of yourself and accept that sometimes, you you know, you're a peach and you're a juicy peach and sometimes you can be the juiciest peach in the world and people just don't like peaches. Some people just prefer apples, like.

• 56:04Fearne Cotton?

  Correct.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  And I think, yeah, maybe that's, maybe that's what I come out with it. I don't know. I guess I've not really thought on, on, on that way. I think what is the most important to me and the why I try to be open and vulnerable about it, which is not always easy to do, is because if someone, anyone can look at me and know that I actually achieved my career highs, like the best days came after the worst darkness ever. And I think that, yeah, if that can be a source of inspiration to anybody, then I hope it is. And I think, yeah, coming through that, I feel like, I, yeah, I think the scary thing is you don't want the darkness to ever come back again and you're always working yourself to hope that that doesn't happen.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  But like to know that I've come through that gives me confidence that that was like my hardest battle yet.

• 56:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  You know?

• 56:54Fearne Cotton?

  And you could do it again.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  If, if I had to, I, I, I, I could do it again because I've done it already, but you know, just hoping that that doesn't, keep working on myself so that doesn't happen. But

• 57:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  I think especially when you, you know, you're an athlete and you're coping with a lot. I don't think people talk in this way and I know it's so common for everyone in every walk of life, like.

• 57:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  It's, I think we have more similarities than we maybe share with one another.

• 57:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  I know that when I first started talking about this a couple of years ago, when I had the confidence to talk about it, I had so many people writing to me, comments, messages, emails, stopping me in the street, not talking about football.

• 57:30Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  Nope. Not interested, only, which is great, by the way, have no problem. Not everyone has to like football. Just want to talk about this and thank you for speaking and it helped my daughter, it helped my mum, it helped me. It helped me get me out of a dark place, your words to help me. Yeah, that has meant more to me than I think anything that I've ever achieved in football. Similarly with the goalkeeper shirts, like. Being able to help create change for other people's life. Means way more than anything I've achieved for my own life, you know?

• 57:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, you, it's purpose, isn't it? You feel that sense of purpose and drive and. But I think it's, it's phenomenal because you are undoubtedly helping so many people by, especially in the sports world. Talking about these things that often get ignored and. Connecting the dots because so many people out there feel the same. And actually, I think what you've said is so helpful that. You can have some of your best days after the worst, worst thing has happened to you or. Or you've been in the worst mental space that. It is possible to feel okay again. And of course, you don't feel like it in the moment, you know, you didn't, I didn't. You feel like. The world is over, everything's gone to shit, but there can of course, you know, all this too shall pass and good things. Can happen and it's so, so important to hear stories like that.

• 58:41Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm again, very grateful for you talking about all of this on Happy Place because it's. What we like to do is have big, honest fucking chats.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  I love it. This has been fabulous conversation. I'm having a present moment right now. This is a great conversation.

• 58:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, me too. I'm like, fucking, I'm just writing a note here. This is good, loving it. I would love to know where Mary is your happy place?

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Where is my happy place? Oh. I mean, it's a, a place that's built on gratitude. It's the small things. It's not a place. It's just, it's like a, I don't know. I learned, I learned the word flow state.

• 59:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love flow state.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Don't really know entirely what it means, but.

• 59:22Fearne Cotton?

  You have it in sport when you're just in the fucking zone and you're not thinking about, I have it if I'm painting a picture and I'm like not even thinking about anything, flow state.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't have to be doing anything particular. I can be on the pitch, off the pitch. But when I'm just grateful for my surroundings, that's my happy place. When I'm taking a present moment to be like this, this conversation right now, so great.

• 59:40Fearne Cotton?

  We're in flow.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  We're, we're in flow. This is my happy place.

• 59:44Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. Mary, thank you so much. I've loved talking to you today.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

• 59:50Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Mary. Bloody love that. I want to hang out with Mary. I want to like, I don't know. Would we go out drinking? Probably not. She's too healthy. She's a footballer. We would go to a spa for the day. I think we'd have a right laugh. And I just love that chat. And I love that she is certainly part of that new generation of sports person who is really showing us the highs and the big lows of not only elite sport, but just what it is to be a human, doing something at that level. It was really fascinating to chat to her more about that. But I've loved what she's been putting out on social media and how she talks about mental health in general. Brilliant stuff. There's a really good documentary on the BBC, which I watched in prep for this chat. It's called Mary, Queen

• 1:00:33Fearne Cotton?

  of Stops. Clever, eh? It's very, very good. If you want to remind yourself of just how wonderful she is in action. Okay, a slight gear change here, because I want to tell you about the book that we're going to be reading together for the Happy Place Book Club in July. It's called Don't Let Him In by Lisa Jewell. Oh, my God. I couldn't put this book down. You know, when you're reading at night and your eyes are involuntary closing, but you can't stop. It's that. So, he seems to be the perfect man. You think he might literally be made for you. So, before long, he's moved into your house and your heart. But then, he starts leaving for a few days at a time, and you're not sure where he's gone or who he's with. See? It's great, isn't it? You start digging into his past. If you

• 1:01:14Fearne Cotton?

  could turn back time, would you tell yourself not to let him in? You've got to read this book. It's so, so good. Don't Let Him In is the book you want to get your hands on if you want to read along with us and chat in depth about this book on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club. All right. Until next time, a massive thanks again to Mary, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you gorgeous lot.

• 1:02:05Speaker 06

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• 1:03:09Speaker 06

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher. And I'm Marco Burchella. And this is Boots Off. We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans. And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.