Avoiding, Treating & Curing Cancer With the Immune System | Dr. Alex Marson

Dr. Alex Marson, MD, PhD, is a Senior Investigator at the Gladstone Institutes and a professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco. We discuss the biology of the immune system and cancer, and everyday choices that can increase or decrease your cancer risk, several of which are surprising but all of which are actionable. We also discuss immunotherapy, including how engineered T-cells can be used to defeat childhood and adult cancers. Dr. Marson explains CRISPR and gene editing to cure diseases, and we address the ethical questions surrounding gene editing in embryos, children and adults. This discussion is for anyone interested in avoiding cancer and/or seeking to understand the science and practical applications of immune- or gene-therapy. Read the show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Alex Marson (00:02:21) Diseases & Current Biological Landscape; AI & Computational Tools (00:05:56) Immune System, Innate vs Adaptive Immune System (00:10:55) Thymus, T Cell Selection; B Cells & Antibodies (00:13:23) Sponsors: BetterHelp & Helix Sleep (00:16:11) Immune System Health, Sleep, Diet; Genes (00:20:56) Childhood Exposure & Allergy Prevention; Autoimmune Reactions (00:25:27) Whole Body Immune Response, Cytokines & Fever; Antibiotics (00:30:51) Cancer; Mutations & Cell Regulation; Smoking, BRCA Mutations, Sunlight (00:38:27) BRAC Mutations, Mutagens, Pesticides (00:42:33) Sponsor: AG1 (00:43:57) X-Rays & Airport Scanners, Carcinogen vs Mutagen, Charred Meat, Food Dye (00:49:34) Immune-Based Cancer Treatment, Checkpoint Inhibitors, CAR T-Cell Therapy (00:59:04) CRISPR, Immunotherapies (01:02:52) Age & Cancer Risk; CAR T-Cells, Targets & Side Effects; Ketogenic Diet (01:08:27) CRISPR Discovery & Mechanism (01:17:06) CRISPR Precision, Risk & Benefit; CRISPR Technology Evolution (01:20:57) Sponsor: LMNT (01:22:17) CRISPR Cell Delivery, Clinical Trials; Treating Early Cancers & Prevention (01:33:47) Liposomes, Engineered Viruses, Lipid Nanoparticles (LNPs), Vaccines (01:39:57) COVID Pandemic & Trust in Science, mRNA Vaccine (01:47:51) Sponsor: Function (01:49:39) Drug Delivery to Cancer, Immunotoxins, T-Cell Engagers; AI Protein Targets (01:55:45) CRISPR Embryo Modification, Ethics; Heritable Gene Editing, Diversity (02:05:42) Deep Sequencing Embryos, Diversity; Overcoming Adversity & Resilience (02:10:44) Upcoming Therapeutics, Autoimmunity & CAR T-Cells, CRISPR & Gene Function (02:17:55) Banking T Cells or iPSCs?, Future of Cell Programming (02:24:41) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  We're living in this amazing moment in biology where we can put a gene that encodes something on the surface of T cells that will make them programmed to search and destroy for cancer cells. Now, this is largely known as CAR T cells, chimeric antigen receptor. This is a receptor that was designed in a lab, does not exist in nature. When those T cells get reinfused into a patient, the way that you get like a blood transfusion, those cars are directed to go against cancers.

• 0:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Alex Marson. Dr. Alex Marson is a medical doctor and scientist at the University of California, San Francisco. He is developing new ways to reprogram the immune system to cure cancers. Today, we discuss how your immune system works, how autoimmunity works, and how gene editing and other new technologies can be successfully leveraged to defeat childhood and adult cancers. Dr. Marson is truly one of a kind in his understanding of the clinical aspects of cancer treatment,

• 1:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  the science of the immune system, and, as you'll soon hear, in explaining the things that genuinely increase your cancer risk, many of which are surprising, and the actionable steps that we can all take to reduce our probability of getting cancer. In addition to the usual factors, smoking, UV light, and environmental toxins such as pesticides, we discuss the actual cancer risks that come from things like eating charred meats, airport scanners, and food additives, and how to gauge your individual level of risk. We also explore gene editing for reversing diseases, which until recently was science fiction, but now is a reality. By the end of today's episode, thanks to Dr. Marson, you'll have the most up-to-date understanding of the state-of-the-art science

• 1:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  for cancer prevention and treatment, knowledge that is certain to impact you, or a close friend, or family member in your lifetime. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Alex Marson. Dr. Alex Marson, welcome.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  Andrew.

• 2:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is the first time that we're going to have a serious discussion about the immune system, cancer, and gene editing technologies on this podcast. So I'm delighted that you're here. It's also great to see you again.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me. Really, really good to see you.

• 2:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's been a while. Let's start off with the big picture. How are we doing? How's biology looking? How's medicine looking? Are we on the fast track to much better things? Are we, I'm going to slog along for another 10 years before we have cures to the many concerns that people have about cancer, Alzheimer's, and the rest? Or are you encouraged by what's happening right now?

• 3:01Speaker 00

  I think maybe there's some, the general public doesn't quite know how excited biologists are about what's possible. And maybe we've overpromised, maybe in the past we've said we're on the brink of curing disease and people haven't seen it. But something is materially different right now. And there is a convergence of so many different ways of understanding biology, but then not having that stop at understanding, but to actually intervene at the root causes of disease. And over the course of this conversation, I imagine we're going to talk about DNA sequencing, understanding cells, but going all the way to rewriting specific DNA sequences inside of the cells of our immune system, doing this not one

• 3:46Speaker 00

  at a time, but testing every gene and understanding pieces of DNA throughout our entire genome to understand what controls our cells. And then being able to take that information and actually do something about it to boost our immune system, to go after cancer, to balance it for inflammation and autoimmunity. And that doesn't just have to be sort of searching for a pill. All of a sudden, we can actually talk to our own cells and give them instructions in the language of DNA and the language of molecular biology. And in some instances, this is being done with CRISPR, but it's also being done with lipid nanoparticles and vaccines. And we're still inventing new ways of giving these instructions, but all of a sudden, medicine...

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Is programming the behavior of cells in a way that's much more directed than was ever conceivable before. Like, there's really a step function in what's imaginable and achievable in medicine.

• 4:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Super exciting. Do you think that molecular biology and genetic engineering and/or AI are the reasons that things are on this accelerated timeline?

• 4:54Speaker 00

  Yes, is the answer. All of those things. I think we can do experiments at a different level of scale. We can generate data. And then we have the computational tools, including AI, but we have computational sophistication to actually extract insights from massive amounts of data. And, you know, I think historically biology was, we were, it was an observational science, especially if you wanted to study things in humans, there wasn't a way to intervene. Now, all of a sudden, we're taking human cells, we're putting, taking them into the lab, and making genetic changes, and reading out the consequences,

• 5:33Speaker 00

  and directly being able to observe the effect. And we have all, we have tools to do this with imaging, we have the tools to do this with DNA sequencing, and we can take this all the way into clinical trials and see what are the, what are the consequences when we actually go after targeted DNA sequences and make our cells better at treating disease.

• 5:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Would you mind educating us about the immune system?

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  The adaptive and the innate immune system, some of the major cell types, because I think those are going to form the kind of building blocks of our discussions about cancer and, and other things today.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Our immune system permeates almost every aspect of our health and disease. It is a system, really in the sense of it's involved in every part of our body, that has evolved to protect us, largely to protect us against infections, viruses, bacteria, fungus.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  All sorts of foreign invasions and our immune system has developed a balance that is, when it's working properly, doesn't recognize the cells that are supposed to be in the body, but is finely tuned to recognize signs of things that shouldn't be in the body and to eliminate them. I mean, at its core, that's the basic job of the immune system. To recognize us versus non-us. Exactly. And you talked about the innate versus the adaptive immune system. Largely what we're talking about are white blood cells. We're talking about different types of white blood cells that are either inside of tissues

• 7:10Speaker 00

  or circulating in our bloodstream that go around and play coordinated and specialized roles in sensing when something comes in that is not us, that's foreign, that shouldn't be there. The innate immune system is sort of thought of as the first alarm system, that something's wrong. And with the innate immune system, which consists of cells like dendritic cells, macrophages, these are cells that are going around and they're looking for patterns of things that just generally aren't in human cells. Some signs of damage, some signs of things that shouldn't be there in a generic way in a healthy human.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  When those first alarm systems get triggered, all of a sudden these innate immune systems start releasing things, they change their state, and they send off an alarm to other cells in the immune system. And then they often recruit in the second arm of the immune system that you mentioned, the adaptive immune system. We'll talk a lot about the adaptive immune system today. And the major players in the adaptive immune system are a group of white blood cells that are collectively known as lymphocytes. But we'll talk about B cells and T cells in particular, which are major groups of lymphocytes. We've been focused heavily on T cells. T cells play a central role in coordinating the fine tuning of the immune response.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  One of the amazing things about the T cells is that each T cell naturally in our body, it's one of the few places where each cell will actually have a different piece of DNA that's not inherited in our germline sequence. Each T cell will make its own receptor that is generated largely at random.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  To go and sense something and those sensors that get put on the surface of T-cells are there to engage and if they're engaged, it's a sign that something has been recognized as foreign. And so we have this incredible diversity of different T-cell receptors that have developed on our T-cells. Each one will have a different, unique receptor on its surface. Each cell will have a different receptor on its surface. And the way to think about these receptors is that they're sensors. When they're engaged, they send a signal to the T-cell that, okay, we found something that you've been programmed to recognize and programmed to recognize as foreign if the immune system is working properly.

• 9:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  And are the genes that these T-cells make as these receptors, are those based on experience of the organism? Because you said that it doesn't come from the germ line, but we should clarify that the germ line is not about infectious germs in this context. The germ line DNA is from the sperm and egg that were your parents. It became you. There's a recombination of those genes and then there's you, all, each and all. And the T-cells are making genes that neither your parents necessarily expressed nor that you were expected to express, except based on what? Exposure to particular pathogens? Why do they make certain receptors and not others?

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Largely random. It's actually, the pieces of DNA at this part of the DNA actually recombine and get pasted together in unique ways.

• 10:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  So it's probabilistic?

• 10:31Speaker 00

  It's probabilistic and that's what allows us to have cells lying there and waiting for things that we've never encountered. If a bacteria might come into existence or a virus might come into existence that doesn't even exist now in nature, but we might have T-cells lying there waiting that could be engaged by those proteins on the surface that viruses would introduce.

• 10:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's incredible. Would you mind mentioning the role of the thymus? These days I'm hearing more and more about we have a thymus and we lose a thymus. Would it be beneficial if we could keep our thymus around?

• 11:04Speaker 00

  So thymus is actually the reason that T-cells are called T-cells is the T stands for thymus. And the thymus is an organ that It does sort of shrink as we age, but at least in childhood, it's it sort of lies by your heart. And it is the place where T cells go and a key place of their education. So they they have are making these sensors largely at random. And then in the thymus, they get cult. They get selected. And the ones that by accident are generated that recognize something that is supposed to be in your body. If if the if the T cell Engagers a natural target in the thymus, those cells will die.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  And so what emerges from the thymus should be, and this is not perfect process, but should be things that have are have emerged at random, but then are selected to remove things that recognize your own body targets.

• 12:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's sort of a negative selection.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  There's a negative selection.

• 12:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Of the stuff that's you, so that your immune system doesn't attack you, and it knows you from non-you.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's exactly right. There's actually both a positive selection and a negative selection. That's exactly the right way to think. The cells get will only emerge from the thymus that if they have a receptor on their surface that's there, so that's one's positive selection. But if it engages with a self-target in the thymus, it gets negatively selected. So what comes out are T cells that are there with sensors in place to recognize things that shouldn't be there.

• 12:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay, so your thymus and your T cells get educated.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  In childhood.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  And that's what you're working with, except that the immune system can adapt and make antibodies to things it doesn't recognize.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  The antibodies come from the from the other type of lymphocell lymphocytes. So now now we can talk about the B cells. B cells are this other type of lymphocyte that work in coordination with T cells, and they're the antibody-producing cells. So they actually have a similar process where they're generating different antibodies at random through a similar kind of recombination event. They have their own form of selection that they go through. And then those antibodies can then be released into the bloodstream and are the basis for protection against infections after we get them.

• 13:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Now, I've been doing therapy for a very long time, and I can tell you that it's a lot like physical workouts. There are days when I want to do it, and there are days when I don't want to do it. But when I finish a therapy session, every single time, I come away feeling better and knowing that the time was well spent. And typically, when I finish a therapy session, I come away with a valuable insight or some new perspective on something that I've been working through, whether or not that's with work, with relationships, my personal life, or simply my relationship with myself. There's just so much benefit that comes through effective therapy. And that's not just my personal experience. There are loads and loads of clinical studies to support that. With BetterHelp, they make

• 14:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  it very easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide the benefits that come through effective therapy. They have a short questionnaire to help match you to the ideal therapist for you. And while BetterHelp has an industry-leading match rate, if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist anytime. Also, because BetterHelp is done entirely online, it's extremely time-efficient. You simply log on and have your session. If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep

• 14:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers. And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is, or how firm it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?" Maybe you know, maybe you don't. "Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Things of that sort. You answer those questions, and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress.

• 15:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four years now, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you. Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off their entire site. Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA/FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off. What underlies the sort of efficiency and functioning of the immune system? I know I and many people are thinking, okay, we hear like our immune system gets activated

• 16:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  or our immune system is impaired. The one thing that I'm certain supports the immune system is great sleep. Right? We just know this. If we don't sleep well or enough, we get sick. Is that because there's a known impairment of the immune system?

• 16:41Speaker 00

  I wonder about this, too. I mean, I agree. Anecdotally, I've experienced that so many times of being run down and then experiencing that I'm susceptible to infection. But I don't actually know the basis of that. I mean, it's kind of amazing how much we don't know about these determinants of immune health, largely because they're often variables that are left out of the mouse studies that we're doing. We're studying largely steady-state immune responses in mice. And I would say we haven't done a full exploration yet of all of the types of ways that general health impinges on the immune system.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  I had someone in my lab, a postdoc named Sagar Bhopat, who came to my lab with an interest in metabolic health and wanted to study the effect of metabolic health on T cells. And there's some subgrowing stuff on this. But it's another, like, what are the determinants of it? He did experiments in my lab where he exposed...

• 17:47Speaker 00

  An allergen, something that irritated the skin and caused an allergic-type reaction in the skin of mice. He did it in mice that were eating a normal mouse diet versus a high-fat diet that caused obesity. And what we saw was that it was actually not just a quantitative difference in the immune system, but actually a qualitative difference. The actual type of inflammation, the cell responses, were different in the mice eating a high-fat diet. And I think we haven't done enough studies like that where we actually start playing with the variables of life and test them in a mechanistic way to isolate individual variants.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  What was interesting there was that the allergic reaction actually looked totally different in the obese mice. And if we used surrogates, or for the types of drugs that are being used now to treat severe allergy, so we gave antibodies that block allergic responses, the normal diet mice would respond favorably to these. They didn't help the mice that had the obese, high-fat diet response to inflammation. And in some cases, it actually maybe made it worse.

• 18:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Interesting.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  So I think that there are these systemic ways. I mean, clearly, we know, our intuition tells us this strongly, that systemic health can feed into our immune responses. But I think it's still been underexplored in rigorous ways.

• 19:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  I realize I'm asking very top contour-type questions for which there probably aren't specific answers, but we all know people that get sick all the time. And we know people who never seem to catch the bugs that everyone else seems to catch. Is there any understanding of what a more robust immune system is at the level, is it more T cells? Is it, you know, are the B cells engaged more quickly so they can generate antibodies more quickly? What is it?

• 19:43Speaker 00

  These are great questions that I don't think have full answers. There are, there's been a lot of work on genetic determinants, and there's extreme cases where people have a genetic gap in their immune system where they're really susceptible to something that healthy people should not be susceptible to. And you see that there are certain types of infections that either happen or happen with a different type of severity in people with genetic... Deficits in certain branches of their immune system. And in some cases, you can pinpoint that we just talked about the innate immune response, the adaptive immune response. You can see that certain genetic mutations that people inherit could influence one or multiple branches of that immune responses and the consequences that that manifests itself

• 20:27Speaker 00

  with different types of infection. And I suspect that there's some spectrum of that, that we see the really, you can diagnose the really strong genetic consequences, and then there might be a long tail of more subtle genetic that might be multi-genic that we don't fully understand. And then I'm sure that there's other determinants of health that are just multifactorial. And it also becomes this interplay between the health and then what you get exposed to by your environment.

• 20:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, speaking of which, I'm familiar with some studies from Stanford, I believe, where kids that have no exposure to peanuts get peanut allergies. And careful, subtle, increasing exposure to peanuts essentially protects them against peanut allergies. So is it true that when we're young, that exposure to pathogens and different foods gives us a more robust immune system?

• 21:28Speaker 00

  I think that there's, that what we're exposed to and what we develop tolerance for is critically important during, there's some windows of early life that I think are particularly susceptible to becoming tolerant. And I think if we don't get the proper exposure to certain things, all of a sudden, our body can start to be hypersensitive to them, which manifests as allergies. Now, there's this balancing act. I think the fear of allergies makes people more hesitant to expose kids, and I think it can get into these dangerous zones of, you don't want to expose kids who are going to have a dangerous allergic response. But on the other hand, critical early exposure is part of how tolerance is maintained.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  And I think peanut allergies, there is strong evidence that exposure to peanuts can be beneficial. And people who are not yet allergic.

• 22:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's going on with autoimmune conditions?

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is this that the B cells and T cells are at a probabilistic level? The T cells developed some reaction, so to speak, a binding to cells that we naturally make that they shouldn't have, that it's just like, it happens?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've always been intrigued by the idea that when the immune system is really ramped up, people will experience autoimmune-like symptoms. I experienced that as a master's student. I was working so much and probably not eating enough and drinking so much caffeine back then, that I got some kind of funky skin lesion things. I went to the doctor and like, oh, you're starting to get some attack of the deeper layers of your skin. You just need to work a little less. And sure enough, did that.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  That did the trick?

• 23:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  It did the trick, you know, but I was just, it made me so keenly aware of how the immune system will, for lack of a better word, adapt to conditions. And it was trying to keep me healthy and it overshot the mark, basically.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  I sort of walked you through at a first principle, like how things are supposed to work. I told you, okay, there's this process of generating receptors on the surface of T cells, antibodies get generated on B cells, that they go through this positive selection and negative selection. That's a delicate balancing act and it doesn't actually work that way in practice. In practice, T cells escape from the thymus that do recognize our own cell antigens. And there's actually secondary mechanisms to block that. But autoimmune diseases emerge when those normal checks fail. And I think it's a consequence that the immune system has two major responsibilities.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  It has to be primed to protect us from infections, which would be fatal, and be strong and recognize this incredible diversity of potential far and dangerous things that we might experience. But it also has to not recognize our own cells. And it can miss the mark in both ways. And so autoimmune disease manifests in different tissues. If your immune system starts recognizing targets in your joints, it can cause rheumatoid arthritis. If it's in the cells that produce insulin in the pancreas, it causes type one or childhood diabetes. If it's the myelinated cells in the brain, it's multiple sclerosis. So this is autoimmunity and inflammation of different kinds.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Cause their own pathology. So we want to, the immune system is always the sort of two sides of the coin, making sure that we're having strong responses to infection. We'll talk about cancer, where we want to also strengthen our responses, but for autoimmunity, inflammation, allergies, we want to make sure that, like, our goal therapeutically and with drugs is to make sure that we make the immune system under control. And ideally do it in a targeted way so that you don't have to turn off the whole immune system with blanket immunosuppression, but to do it in a way that just makes you tolerant or not reactive against the things that are being inappropriately targeted by the immune system.

• 25:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  Two things that I'd love to understand about the immune system is, how is it that an immune response, let's say to a cold virus, is systemic? Like, where is the sort of master controller, or maybe it's a distributed system, that says like, okay, we need to launch a body-wide response as opposed to a localized response? I can imagine like with a splinter, of course, you're going to get a localized response. It's a little piece of wood or metal, and so you're going to get the innate response and you're going to get some pus around it and it will kind of localize the wound. But when it comes to an invasive virus like the cold virus, it overtakes us, right? The production of mucus, we get the headache,

• 26:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  and I think it's the systemic effect that intrigues me so much. Like, where is the signal to launch a systemic versus a localized response in the immune system? How does it determine that?

• 26:24Speaker 00

  You know, I think some of it depends on what virus we're talking about, how systemically invasive the different viruses can be. And some of it can be that the immune system has different levels of, you know, it can have a local response. But the cells that we talked about in the immune system, one of their jobs can actually be to secrete things into the bloodstream. Things that are essentially chemical signals that something is wrong. Major ones are, they're called cytokines, and they can act locally, but they can also have more distributed effects. And some of the things that cytokines can do can influence, can cause the development of fever. Right? So you can have these sort of cascading effects of something being recognized at a particular

• 27:07Speaker 00

  side of the body, then sending distributed signals to the blood that will make us feel sick. And in some cases, there's, again, this balancing act of maybe the fever gives us some edge in fighting some types of infection, but it also makes us feel lousy. And so, you know, the immune system is always walking. I think sometimes the immune system response to infections is too strong, and a lot of the negative consequence of what we experience is the immune system going too far and having to come back as an infection gets under control.

• 27:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you. One of the reasons I ask that is, well, I hate being sick. Fortunately, I don't get sick too often if I take good care, which I think is like most people. I think about antibiotics, for instance. Antibiotics are amazing.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've had a few things where I was like, oh, this thing's bothering me, and I had this sinus infection a few years back, and I was like, oh, this is definitely not a cold. And then they tell you it's not a sinus infection unless, I was like, I have a feeling. Now, I'm not a physician, of course, but it got really bad, and I took antibiotics, and within a day, I was feeling substantially better. That's great. Many people have such experiences with antibiotics. I realize they can be over-prescribed, and you can end up with antibiotic-resistant infections. That's a concern for sure. But what is the sort of inherent danger of using things like antibiotics, the way I

• 28:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  described, like not in a life or death situation, to mitigate the duration or the intensity of some sort of infection? Because surely you're short-circuiting your immune system's ability to eventually just fight that thing off. Like, is part of building a robust immune system across your lifespan allowing your immune system to do the work and going through the misery of being really sick and infected?

• 28:56Speaker 00

  I don't think so.

• 28:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Great. Okay. Fantastic. Love that answer. Love that answer.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  I think you probably were exposed and had an immune response. Antibiotics, when they're used for bacterial infections that are susceptible to them, are a miracle. And You know, we live in this amazing sliver of human history where we have antibiotics that can cure disease. I mean, I think many of us have had bacterial infections of different kinds, cuts and wounds that would have been deadly in other generations and we're the beneficiaries of having antibiotics that work. We are at some risk that if we overuse them, that window of human history might come to an end if we don't continue to replenish new antibiotics, but we gain more and more bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics.

• 29:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Are people developing new antibiotics?

• 29:45Speaker 00

  It's an underfunded area of medicine.

• 29:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because I just hear amoxicillin, penicillin. I have a friend over in the UK who's been having some eye symptoms that, from what I'm learning, or still learning, is likely an infection near the posterior chamber, which just simply means his vision is potentially at risk. Systemic antibiotics are very likely going to save his vision. And so people say, well, antibiotics are like, 100 years ago, he probably would have just, they would have just innuccated the eye, which is to be blind, right? So I think they're a spectacularly good tool, but it seems like there's just a kit of maybe, what, five to a dozen very commonly prescribed ones. Why aren't people developing better, newer, new generation antibiotics? Seems like it would be, if for no other reason, a trillion dollar industry,

• 30:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  but also save a lot of lives.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  I don't know whether there's a business reason for that, but it is an underfunded area. Like, it's not where medicine has turned enough attention, and I do think it's a genuine risk.

• 30:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  All right. Well, some entrepreneurial young guy or gal, or both, will launch into it. I want to understand the relationship between the immune system and cancer.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  But perhaps first, we should talk about cancer, what it is and what it isn't. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding out there that cancer did not exist in our not-so-distant past. I mean, you hear this, like, people say, oh, you know, cancer is a new thing because of the advent of, you know, all these devices with EMFs and radiation. That's certainly not what I believe. Has cancer been around a very, very long time? Do we have evidence for that?

• 31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, if anyone's really interested, I would highly recommend this book, The Emperor of All Maladies, which is really a biography of cancer as a disease and talk about, I mean, the long history of going back as far as there's records of tumors of various kinds and the misery associated with that. We have a very different understanding of cancer right now. And I think cancer is one of the most sophisticated, where we have one of the most sophisticated genetic understandings of disease. Doesn't mean we can always do things about it, but now we can understand mutations that accumulate in cells. And all of a sudden, so the DNA inside of a healthy cell is there programming.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  So if you have a skin cell, your DNA is programming your skin cell to be a skin cell. In cancer, all of a sudden, some combination of mutations emerge in that cell that lose its normal regulation. The skin cell is no longer getting the proper signals from its DNA to stay in the right place. And it goes and switches into a mode where it's dividing out of control. And the result is that those cells will then transform into cancer cells. They'll start dividing, they'll lose the normal architecture. The risk is that they can disrupt things in the tissue where they are or that further mutations can accumulate and they can actually start spreading into distant sites in the body. And that's metastasis,

• 32:49Speaker 00

  when a cancer goes from one local site to another part of the body. And as that happens, those cancerous cells, it's really an evolutionary process where those cancerous cells have acquired new genetics that are focused on their well-being. Those cells are dividing, they're growing out of control, and they're taking the resources. They're growing at the expense of the normal coordination of the human body. And that's really, at its core, what cancer is. It's genetic disease where cells lose the normal regulation and are dividing out of control in various tissues.

• 33:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  I can see the picture in my mind where an otherwise healthy cell gets a mutation. We can talk about how mutations arise.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then starts spitting off daughter cells.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  As it's referred to.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Why would the daughter cells inherit the mutation necessarily to then create more cells? Because that's the proliferation of the tumor.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Certainly, cells propagate their DNA into their daughter cells. But I could imagine a situation where every day, some of our cells get a mutation, spit off a couple of daughter cells, and then those daughter cells are terminal, as we say.

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they don't create more cells. Is that happening all over the body every day? So how is it that the DNA that creates the further propagation gets passed from one cell to the next?

• 34:22Speaker 00

  I do think this is happening constantly. It's a process that every time a cell is around, especially as it's dividing, there is some imperfection in how the DNA has inside each of our cells. If that cell's going to replicate, the DNA has to replicate itself. So you end up with two copies of DNA that should be the same, each one being passed on to the two's daughter cells of that dividing cell. That process of DNA replication is imperfect. And if there's any kind of damage during that process, one of those two copies might end up different than the other one, in which case you end up with a mutation now in one daughter cell and not the other. If that is deleterious, or if it's damaging, which probably most mutations are, those

• 35:07Speaker 00

  cells might start to die off. Okay, the DNA got messed up, those cells that are carrying that DNA die.

• 35:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, they can't take up glucose, they just can't do cell stuff.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  And there's a lot of control mechanisms in the cell that say, if something's wrong, let's send a programmed cell death signal to that cell. And cells will kind of implode with various processes when something is wrong. And that happens most of the time. The problem is if that change all of a sudden starts to not be damaging, but to actually be a signal, okay, now the cell is growing more, it has some benefit that it's accumulated as a result of that mutation. Now that cell will start to divide more. And that cell that's carrying that first mutation might start dividing more. Both of its daughters now will pass on this mutation that's made it divide more.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  And if in subsequent rounds it gets a second hit, the combination may go from just cells that are dividing a little bit more to cells that take off and become full-blown cancer. Now, there's certain processes that would accelerate that. One was exposure to things that cause DNA damage. The major one is smoking. When smoking causes chemicals to go into your lungs, the lung cells get exposed to these chemicals that then cause higher amounts of DNA damage, more mutations. And just as you have more mutations at a higher frequency, you're more likely to accumulate a set of mutations that will gradually go on to cause the generation of cancer.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  Another way that this process can be accelerated is that some people carry an underlying genetic predisposition to cancer. So people will likely have heard of the BRCA or the BRCA genes which predispose to breast cancer and other types of cancer. There, people start with one copy that's already setting them on a road to higher risk of mutations accumulating. And the whole process happens with a higher frequency. And so this march towards cancer cells is more likely to occur in people with that type of predisposition.

• 37:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  How common is the BRCA mutation? Is it equally distributed in men and women? Yeah, what can you tell us? And should everyone get tested for BRCA? And there's a lot of questions here. I'll ask them again, one by one. And then, of course, we'll talk about things that could be protective, but certainly avoiding smoking would be paramount. So how common is BRCA?

• 37:41Speaker 00

  So in terms of mutagens, like the big ones are smoking. Sun exposure for melanoma, I know the balancing features of sun exposure.

• 37:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, we can talk about that.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  But, but clearly UV is a risk factor for DNA damage in the skin.

• 37:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, I'm perfectly happy going on reg. The things I've said around sunlight have been contorted so many different ways. It's like a pretzel twist now. No, it's more like one of those balloon animals at a party, but it's not, it's a mess. The, too much UV is bad for, for skin cells. It's just bad. You need some, but too much is bad. Long wavelength light is great for, and therein lies the challenge. But yeah, love sunlight, but you don't want excessive UV. Don't get, avoid getting sunburned, folks. Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, the BRCA mutation, I have a personal relationship to this because I lost both my graduate advisor and my postdoctoral advisor to BRCA mutation related cancers. 50 and six, you know, just a little bit older than 60 and the other, and, you know, brutal,

• 38:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  especially when you, you know, one of them I know they're kids and, you know, it's just for young people getting cancer, and I know they're childhood cancers, but BRCA seems pretty common.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. I mean, they're not the major, like numerical causes of, of, of cancer. In the scheme of cancers that develops, it's, it's, it's, it's a minority. It's a relatively small set number of the full set of cancers. The problem is if you inherit a BRCA mutation as an individual, you have a very high risk of developing cancer. So it, as an individual, your risk goes way, way up and of certain types of cancer in particular.

• 39:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  And we can all get tested for it now, pretty cheaply, right?

• 39:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. That's certainly recommended if there's a family history of, of cancer for BRCA mutations and a couple of other ones. But you're right, it's, the tests are available. And you asked about men and women. It actually was was men were some of the ways that those BRCA genes were identified. Because it's so rare for men to develop breast cancer, the ones who did develop it, there was a thought, well, maybe there's an underlying genetic predisposition and that helped identify those genes.

• 39:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Interesting. Everyone get tested for BRCA, you know, because there are lifestyle factors that can reduce your cancer risk. I'd like to talk about mutagens.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Smoking, bad. I'll go on record saying vaping, bad. Perhaps not as bad as smoking, but still way, way worse than not vaping. The battle to sort of protect vaping is like beyond me, but okay, to each their own. Environmental sort of and workplace hazards, you know, like known mutagens. If you work in a laboratory, you're working with mutagens, right? You're working with things that literally pull DNA apart.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  This always worried me, working in a laboratory, there are a lot of carcinogenic chemicals in a laboratory.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  For good reason.

• 40:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  This is the, yeah, we're trying to study cancer, but we're certainly working around a lot of things that could cause cancer.

• 40:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Chemicals, radiation. Yeah. I don't know if you, about you, I did a lot of, lot of experiments, radiolabelling cells.

• 40:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. I mean, we, well, fortunately, we worked with, you know, radio tagged amino acids with radiation that was, we were told, and I do believe was not, not as, as dangerous as some of the others. But, yeah, I mean, so chemical exposures are a big one.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 41:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  And so those, those labels on paints and thinners and stuff in the garage, that's real. That's a real thing. They mutate cells.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  And there's, you know, there's some spectrum of

• 41:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  Sure.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  stronger and less strong ones. And I think oftentimes we're operating in an absence of great data, but I, you know, I think there's, a lot of things are implicated as potential mutagens.

• 41:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Pesticides.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, look at cancer rates in, in rural areas near where, you know, crops are dusted with pesticides and We've had, Shauna Swan came on here and she's like, listen, you know, the cancer risks, the endocrine disruptor risks, we think of as like, big cities as dirty and dangerous, and they are for certain reasons. But she said, if you really see the spikes in these cancers related to environmental factors, it's less so bus exhaust than it is pesticides.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  I mean, it is not evenly or fairly distributed. Some people get exposed way more to these things. And we haven't studied them enough. We need way more study to really be able to answer, okay. And people shouldn't be left, this is me just speaking, it's kind of amazing to me how much we're left on our own to be figuring out what the risk of individual products is. And I think it's a place where we should be investing a lot more to get clarity on where the real risks are.

• 42:34Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 43:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  supplement be? And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been oh so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance. I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription. Again, that's drinkag1 with the numeral 1.com.

• 43:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  To get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription. I get x-rays at the dentist now and again, but I prefer not to get them. X-rays cause mutations.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, again, there's a trade off and the dose and I, you know, when you need an x-ray, you need an x-ray, but I wouldn't do them for fun.

• 44:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right. I mean, I have colleagues who prefer to do the slower manual pat down at the airport to going through the scanner. It's a low level of radiation is what they tell me, but if you're traveling a lot, you're getting multiple low level exposures. And we know pilots, and this is for other reasons, because they're, you know, you can tell us, but atmospherically they're exposed to more radiation. Cancer rates are higher in pilots. Now, they're sitting a lot too, prostate, okay, there's a bunch of things there. But do you yourself avoid the scanner at the airport?

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Honestly, I do, but I can't say that there's data for that. I feel the same way as you, like, if I could avoid it, I try to minimize. But I, that's not based on some inside knowledge I have, but I have the same bias of

• 45:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Sure, yeah.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  Less seems better.

• 45:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not out to get the scanner industry. I just, I think it's useful for people to hear that, that you could, that one can have no formal data, but an understanding of mechanism that leads them to hedge.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's good to know. Are there any mutagens and, well, is a carcinogen and a mutagen the same thing?

• 45:26Speaker 00

  So they're closely related. Mutagen, I think, means that you're mutating, that you're changing the DNA in the cell. That's, that's the idea that it's, those mutations may or may not be linked to cancer, but by virtue of the fact that you're causing more mutations, almost inevitably, you're also increasing the risk of cancer. And carcinogens are things that increase the rate of cancer.

• 45:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love barbecued meat. I don't like barbecue sauce because it's sweet, but I like meat with a char.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is the char bad?

• 45:55Speaker 00

  I think so. I mean, I like it too, but yeah, yeah. Again, these are balancing decisions in life.

• 46:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Sure.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  But yes, there's some, there's, I mean, meat in general has been implicated as a potential carcinogen, especially in colorectal cancer. There's some data around that.

• 46:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, my read of those data, not the char data,

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  but the meat data is it's tricky. From my, this is just my standpoint. I want to make sure I put brackets around this. That this is my understatement of the literature is that many of the studies that looked at meat rich, red meat rich diets versus plant-based diets, the problem is a lot of times the red meat enriched diets had a bunch of other things in them. Like sourcing wasn't considered. There was also a lot of starches. Like, because nowadays you find people who seem to at least feel better. Who knows about the longevity aspect? But feel better eating red meat, fruits and vegetables, limited amounts of starches. So I feel like the nutrition studies are a mess. They're kind of a disaster.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  I certainly, good. Don't have clarity on this. Yeah, yeah. And it seems like it changes the direction. I think some things we have pretty good common sense intuition about.

• 47:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  Fiber.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, ultra-processed foods are probably bad, but I think the balance of exactly what whole foods we're eating probably still needs to be worked out.

• 47:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  How do you think about the data on, like, for instance, food dyes, this is very timely,

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  where a certain food dye at a very, very, very high concentration in laboratory animals creates a significantly higher incidence of tumors and cancers in those animals.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  But then the amount of food dye that's in the human food is a tiny fraction of that.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm not trying to get political here. I just think as a framework for people to think about, there are many carcinogens, I'm sure, right in this environment. I don't doubt that the lacquer on this table, in fact, if that's even what they used, if ingested could cause, could cause cancer. I don't, I don't doubt that, right? But I don't know that in its, in its form here, being near it for many hours a day, does that. I doubt it. We're not inhaling the table.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  This is what I mean by this, this, this level of confusion. I think we all live with this background confusion of. Some study has been published in my, you said, "High concentrations of exposure doesn't mean anything in our lives. What's the relative risk?" So that's why I start with smoking, sunlight, and then say, "There's a tale." And I don't think we know fully what that distribution is yet. I'm sure there are some combination of things that are increasing our risk of cancer.

• 48:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  We don't really know how to weigh duration and amount of exposure. And this is why I think it's really scary to people. People don't know, you know, they know smokers who don't get lung cancer.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and nonsmokers who do.

• 48:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  And nonsmokers who do. And so I think people go, "Well, like, what?" It actually has caused, I believe, a lot of damage in the faith in medicine, unfortunately, because the messaging is all, is mixed up. Yeah, I think that nowadays people are trying to do what they can to protect themselves, but people still get cancer. You can do everything right and still get cancer, is that, even if you don't have a bracket mutation.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I mean, absolutely. You know, I think the last thing you ever want to do is like, attribute someone's actions to cancer. I mean, it is, it is a probabilistic disease where some set of mutations occur that cause a really devastating disease. And so, yeah, I mean, we don't know the answers, and I think we have to be humble about that. Now, what I think we can also talk about is, well, how do we handle, how do we treat cancer when it comes up? And this is where these two conversations that we've been having really come together of, when talking about the immune system, we went through a lot of, I think, actually, we went through a lot of sort of detailed mechanism, thinking about the different cell constituents of our immune system. I will tell you that when I went

• 49:55Speaker 00

  to medical school, which wasn't that long ago, I graduated in 2010, the dogma was, "Don't waste time thinking about cancer immunology." Cancer immunology is a field that's going nowhere. I mean, I think I was in Boston, I think that was, maybe there was some local bias in that direction, but this was not the mainstream of thinking about how we would treat cancer. At that point, the way that cancer was being treated was chemotherapy, which, you know, is something that's been around for decades, and it's basically to give toxins to the body that will be more toxic to the cancer cells than to the healthy cells, and ask people to endure all the side effects because they have to, to get rid of the cancer cells.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  And that's still the mainstay of cancer treatment. We all want to do better than that.

• 50:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's very unpleasant, very, very unpleasant.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  Unpleasant and worse. I mean, I mean, people endure har- you know, it's, we put people through horrific things because it's the best we can do. And then there was a wave of thinking, okay, well, let's try to make drugs that are targeted to the mutations that we talked about. And that was, that was the hot thing, that was the promising avenue when I was in medical school of like, okay, now we've really measured, these are mutations that accumulate inside of cancer cells, this is what's causing cancer, let's, let's make drugs that go after those things. Turned out that that was, although a lot of good has come from that, people have extended lives, cancer has a way of working around that.

• 51:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  So these are cell cycle inhibitors?

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Signaling, various mutations affect these growth properties of cells, and there's targeted drugs that have been designed to go after some of those pathways that are making the cells divide out of control. Yeah. I think that benefit has come, but cancer has ways of mutating around that and developing resistance, the same way we talked about resistance in bacteria to antibiotics if they're exposed. You could, cancer cells are, can evolve quickly and can become resistant to these targeted modifications. What has emerged as a whole new way of thinking about going after cancer is using the power of the immune system that we talked about at the beginning and redirecting that against cancer targets.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  This has changed how we think about cancer treatment. The hope is that, all of we talked, we talked, all of us have this immune system that goes through every organ in our body, it circulates, we have white blood cells that are constantly going around and looking for things that shouldn't be there. Can we unleash that immune system against cancer?

• 52:35Speaker 00

  And the hope would be that the cells, the autoimmune system, we talked about how they're really exquisitely evolved to make a determination of this is a healthy cell, this is not a healthy cell, this cell should be here, this should not. If we could get that level of precision, where we could have a durable immune response that gets rid of the cancer cells but leaves the healthy cells intact, that is what we want. Now, that is not science fiction and is now approved and used to treat a number of different cancers. The first place where this happened was in a class of medicines called checkpoint inhibitors or immunotherapy drugs. A lot of people will have heard of these things, PD-1, CTLA-4 are some targets where

• 53:20Speaker 00

  there are drugs that get infused that hit these things that are on the surface of T-cells. And they actually are natural brakes to the T-cells. T-cells might be in our body there but turned off or not turned on enough to be strong enough against cancer. And for certain types of cancer, it's been absolutely miraculous that if you make a drug that hits the brake on the T-cells, the T-cells go stronger and they can be unleashed against cancer just by taking the brakes off of them.

• 53:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  What sorts of cancers has it been successful for?

• 53:55Speaker 00

  The poster child for this has been melanoma. One of the big success cases was Jimmy Carter, who had a melanoma, which is a skin cell, aggressive skin cancer, that had already gone to his brain, which was thought of as a death sentence, and he got treated with checkpoint inhibitors and basically was cured.

• 54:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  And so you saw these tumors just shrink away, and not just him, but in a large fraction of melanoma patients now respond to these. And so that has changed how melanoma is treated and other cancers to varying degrees, because some types of cancers can respond to this. That's taking a drug that unleashes the T-cells that are already in our body. The focus of my research is, well, the first thing I said was, we're living in this amazing moment of biology where we can do things to cells in our body with incredible precision and... And we're often just limited by our imagination. And what we can see now is that we don't actually have to just be limited to the cells,

• 54:58Speaker 00

  the T cells that are natural in our body that already have this random distribution of sensors. We can actually genetically make one of these sensors for T cells and put it into T cells. We can put in, put a gene that encodes something on the surface of T cells that will make them programmed to search and destroy for cancer cells. Now, this is, this is largely known as chimeric antigen receptor T cells. That's a long term. They're known for short as CAR T cells, chimeric antigen receptor. And what that means, chimeric, is that these are stitched together.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  This is a receptor that was designed in a lab, does not exist in nature, but can be put into a piece of DNA, delivered into a T cell. And when that DNA goes into the genetic code of the T cell, all of a sudden, the T cell will start making proteins that go on its surface and act as these artificial sensors. And those cars, then, when those T cells get reinfused into a patient, the way that you get like a blood transfusion, those cars are directed to go against cancers. This has been done for certain types of leukemia and lymphoma, and there's been these amazing success stories. The thing that woke up me and the world was, in 2012, there was a young girl, was the

• 56:24Speaker 00

  first pediatric patient to be treated with a CAR T cell for, for cancer. She's become a heroic figure, Emily Whitehead. She was, I think, eight at the time, and she had a form of leukemia that hadn't, it just was, for some reason, whatever reason, it failed all the treatments, and it just, nothing worked. She was going to be sent home on hospice. She had exhausted all the possibilities at the age of eight. And she got enrolled in a, at that time, highly experimental treatment to get these CAR T cells. So her blood cells were taken out in a big blood donation. Her own T cells were genetically modified. And we could talk about how that was done. It was actually done with like a

• 57:07Speaker 00

  pretty crude technique that's been around, actually used viruses, lentivirus, these are sort of modified HIV viruses, to deliver this extra piece of DNA that encoded the CAR. This was done on her cells. And then after that extra gene was put into the T cells, the T cells were reinfused into her body. And it was not a straightforward course. She ended up in the ICU. The immune system had, in real time, people had to figure out how to control the immune systems and the side effects. But as that was controlled, all of a sudden, her cancer cells disappeared.

• 57:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing. And the lentivirus itself didn't spark an immune reaction that was, that outweighed the benefits of the cargo?

• 57:52Speaker 00

  No. Amazingly, it really hasn't. I mean, there's been some discussion about the risks of using these lentivirus. And we will talk in a second about how we could do better now.

• 58:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, people are gonna hear putting viruses into cells and putting them into humans, and a bunch of people will freak out. But I promise you that things like adenov, which is like a cold virus, or lenti, which is similar to HIV, and of course, they didn't give her HIV, they changed the virus, so they're not delivering HIV. These viruses are incredible, because they can create long-lasting expression of genes that you deliberately put into them. They're a shuttle.

• 58:27Speaker 00

  It's an amazing application of biological understanding, right? That all of a sudden, we've been studying viruses because of the risks that they have, but we've learned that they can deliver, that viruses have evolved to be very good shuttles, and to deliver their genetic material into cells.

• 58:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  The way I think of it, that is, the viruses have evolved to take advantage of our biology and our genes. And so, we did the ultimate touche in these instances. Like, you're so good at hijacking our cells' DNA and proliferating, all right, we'll leverage you to help us as opposed to hurt us, right?

• 59:02Speaker 00

  That's exactly right. And so that was done in 2012. Emily Whitehead was eight.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  It was done as an experimental treatment at the University of Pennsylvania. And the story now is that now, all these years later, Emily White has not only cured of her leukemia, she's pre-med at the University of Pennsylvania. So awesome. And so, no one could ignore that. You know, this was, this wasn't, this was just, all of a sudden, this dogma that I had just been taught a couple of years early in medical school that we should ignore cancer immunotherapy, it was just, we were just wrong. And all of a sudden, the field woke up and said, okay, the immune system is not just limited to treating viruses and bacteria, protecting us from viruses and bacteria. The immune system can be exploited and potentially re-engineered to protect us from cancer and maybe other diseases. So that was 2012.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  2012 also was the year that a paper got published in Science by Emmanuel Charpentier and Jennifer Doudna that introduced this new technology called CRISPR. And we can, we'll talk about this, but CRISPR fundamentally is a tool to rewrite DNA sequences. That came out in 2012. And on a personal level, 2012 was also the year that I moved to San Francisco to start a lab studying T cells and how genetics influences T cells. I was looking around and trying to figure out what my lab would do. And all of a sudden, I was arriving with an empty lab space at exactly the same moment

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  that the world was shown that T cells could cure cancer. And that we had a tool that could potentially rewrite DNA sequences and that we wouldn't be limited to these lentivirus, which are kind of clunky, the best tools we had at the time, but pretty clunky and non-precise in how they insert genetic material. All of a sudden, we could imagine that we could take T cells and use CRISPR to actually pick individual places in the genome and make targeted changes to program exactly how cells behave. And that is the basis for my ongoing work. We've put a lot of work over the years into being able to now take CRISPR technology, get it to work in T cells, to learn the rules about what are the genetic changes that will be most effective at making T cells into

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  Into immunotherapies that cure patients with different diseases. And then to go all the way and then actually use CRISPR to make T cells that can be input into patients with new levels of precision and power. And that's in clinical trials now. We're now in clinical trials with these CRISPR engineered CAR T cells. And we're not just going after leukemias where these CAR T cells have historically worked, but we're also thinking about can we make these work for the really common causes of cancer deaths, solid tumors. And that's been a challenge, and we can talk about that. But getting T cells to find the right targets in tumors and then work inside of tumor environments,

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  which are inherently immunosuppressive, requires figuring out additional gene edits that are now possible with CRISPR to try to beat the cancer at its own game. If cancer is evolving to make itself cloaked from the immune system now with CRISPR, we can think about getting one step ahead and making T cells that are able to resist all the tricks that cancers throw at it to be more. And I think we're on the brink of having precise CRISPR engineered cells that will, I hope, start to melt away cancers without the side effects of chemotherapy.

• 1:02:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing, just amazing. And the story of this young woman is spectacular. I have two questions before we talk about CRISPR technology. The first one is, is it true, I believe it is, but is it true that cancer risk goes up as we get older? And if so, why? So that's the first question. And then the other question has to do with how the immunotherapy that you described was able to target the cancer and not cause problems elsewhere, which is kind of the major issue of chemo and radiation therapy. But the first question, again, was, you know, why more mutations as we get older?

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  So I think there's a few cancers that peak in childhood and there's risk as the body's developing of certain cancer, childhood cancers. And there's childhood leukemias, for example, and that, like when we talk about Emily Whitehead. But most cancers, as you said, exactly as you said, that there's this sort of increase and they're largely a disease of later stages of life. I think that the reason for that is, remember when we talked about what causes cancer, it's this evolution where certain cells start to accumulate mutations. Numerically, a lot of the cells that have the mutations will die off, and it's just a game that unfolds over time. And the more time you have cells dividing and sticking around in the body, they're accumulating more damage, and eventually, you're more likely that that damage would actually transform the cells into a cancer cell.

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  So, time is a big factor here. Time and just accumulated damage.

• 1:04:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  The other question was, how is it that the lentivirus knows to, the lentiviral cargo-carrying T cells know to attack the cancer and not something else?

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  So, this is a key question for the field, right? And I think one of the things that worked incredibly well was a brilliant choice by a group of scientists in a few different places that converged on the target that was used in the first CAR T cell. And what the target is known as is a protein called CD19. That's just the name of this thing that's found on a lot of different types of B cells. So, this brings us back to this discussion. The leukemias themselves are a disease, a cancer of the immune cells, so they're cancer of B cells. And CD19 is found on the surface of many, a large number of different types of B cell leukemias and lymphomas.

• 1:05:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  I see.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  I think one of the things that turns out to be serendipitous here is that B cells themselves, natural, healthy B cells, actually also have CD19 on their surface. What just turns out to be serendipitous is that the body can tolerate those cells going away. And so, what has made this a particularly effective and safe and relatively well-tolerated treatment for cancer is that the collateral damage is actually not that damaging. That T cells in this case are not strictly distinguishing between cancer and health. They're not just getting the leukemia cells, they are getting collateral B cells. But by and large, to a first approximation, people can live without those cells. And so, that side effect has just been tolerable.

• 1:06:01Speaker 00

  Finding that balance gets harder and harder for more cancers. Right? If you start to think about pancreatic cancer, brain cancer, finding targets that if you hit the healthy pancreas or the healthy brain are not toxic, it's harder and harder. So people are thinking about more and more sophisticated ways to look for these targets that are selectively found on the cancer cell and not on the healthy cell, or to think about ways that you might actually make the cell depend on recognizing multiple features so that you can have what's sometimes talked about as like a two-factor authentication. Like, the T-cell will only kill cancer if it finds this and this, and that combination

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  of things are not found on healthy cells, even if one or the other might be. So people are thinking about how do we get more sophisticated about building these discrimination systems into T-cells. The building blocks are there, but the specifics for each cancer have to be invented. But we have the tools to do that.

• 1:07:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Awesome. Before we talk about CRISPR, there was one other question that I know many people will be thinking about. A few years back, maybe five, 10 years back, there was a lot of discussion, maybe even some enthusiasm, about ketogenic diets to treat or prevent cancer. And my understanding from looking at that literature was that for some cancers, it perhaps, I want to bold underline and capitalize, perhaps, might help. But for other cancers, it could make things worse. And then I also more recently started hearing about low-glutamine diets. So, and of course, this is the way the internet works.

• 1:07:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I did see some papers in some decent journals, you know, that at least were exploring this. So are low, they're just low, let's call it what they are, ketogenic diets, have they been shown to be useful for treatment or avoidance of cancer?

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  I have to defer to you. Actually, I don't, I don't know the answer to that, you know?

• 1:08:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay. My guess is that people are still looking at this. But, you know, there was also the idea that they could be useful for certain forms of dementia. There was an effort to call dementia, you know, type 3 diabetes. But my understanding from talking to the experts in this is that it might help through indirect mechanisms, but that it's not going to solve the problem. Okay. Well, thanks for entertaining that little cul-de-sac that I created.

• 1:08:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  CRISPR, tell us the story of CRISPR. Because I think CRISPR is one of those funny things in biology and medicine that almost everybody has heard about in the general population. Most people know it has something to do with changing genes, but it's sort of like AI.

• 1:08:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's here, it's powerful, it scares certain people, it excites other people. But most people don't know how it works, because there's really no incentive to. But I think the story of CRISPR is actually also a story about how science works.

• 1:09:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  And that's important, too.

• 1:09:05Speaker 00

  I think it's exactly true. I think it is a perfect illustration of something where a discovery happened with it, no one was planning, but changed biology. Let me tell this story in two separate arcs. One arc is the arc of understanding DNA. You know, if you go back to Watson and Crick, it's understanding the double helix, to understand the structure of what a DNA sequence is. That matures, we learn how to sequence, to understand, to be able to measure a row of ATs and Cs and Gs that, in whatever combination they are, will start to be the building blocks for programming which proteins get made inside a cell.

• 1:09:48Speaker 00

  And then around 2000, we get to the first draft of the human genome, which is this multi-billion dollar project across the world to come up with a draft of one human genome sequence. Milestone for biology and medicine. And then DNA sequencing technologies continue to improve and cost comes down. And we're getting to the point where we can start to measure big chunks of our DNA at increasingly affordable costs. And people, we're starting to understand the differences between people with DNA at the level of at least statistics, okay, people with this disease are more likely to have this gene than that. But we're getting to some limit of what we can do just by sequencing DNA.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  All of a sudden, you're observing the DNA sequence that's in someone's cells, but you don't really know what those effects are. Just as the sequencing world is maturing. We're desperately looking for a tool to say, well, now we want to, as we have all the sequences, we want to be able to see what happens if you change a sequence. And people were stumbling around, looking for different tools. There was a range of these things. There were zinc fingers. Lenti virus was another one that we just talked about, with different degrees of efficiency. And people were trying to be able to change DNA sequences in cells. And it had been a longstanding effort.

• 1:11:15Speaker 00

  Out of nowhere emerges CRISPR as the answer to this problem. CRISPR was being studied as an interesting and unusual set of DNA sequences that were found in certain types of bacteria. There were these repeated sequences and no one knew what they were. And people, out of real basic curiosity about what was happening in bacteria, started studying these repeat sequences and what they were doing. And little by little by little, it was worked out that these repeat sequences actually formed the basis of a kind of immune system for bacteria. Now, we talked about the human immune system. Bacteria are just an individual cell, but they're also susceptible to infections, which

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  is sort of a strange idea. Bacteria cause infections in us, but there's this arms race between organisms.

• 1:12:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Everyone's trying to kill everyone else.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  And so bacteria are constantly being bombarded by certain types of viruses. They're called bacteriophage viruses. And they've evolved a series of, bacteria have evolved a series of defense mechanisms to protect themselves from these viruses. CRISPR turns out to be a bacterial defense mechanism against viruses. Which is kind of amazing that this thing that has entered into popular culture is a bacteria protection against bacteriophage. Now, why has this caught the world of biology by storm? Well, what was realized was that the way that CRISPR works to protect against itself,

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  protect bacteria from viruses, is that it can recognize particular sequences of DNA, which are virus sequences, and discern, discriminate whether it's a virus sequence or its own bacterial sequence. And it actually does that by scanning across the DNA and finding something that's recognized as a virus target and not a bacteria target. And when it finds it, it makes a cut. Okay? Now, this sounds technical, obscure, but what was recognized, and this became the basis for a Nobel Prize with Jennifer Dowden and Emmanuel Shropentia, many people around the world have contributed to this field.

• 1:13:34Speaker 00

  What was realized was that this could be repurposed as a tool. If we take it out of bacteria, we could actually exploit this CRISPR system that had evolved to protect bacteria. And the same rules that allowed bacteria to scan across DNA and find a virus sequence and cut it could be used to scan across any DNA and cut at a particular sequence. That's the power of CRISPR. Now, why do we care so much about being able to cut a particular sequence? If you can cut, you can also start pasting. You can cut out genes that are limiting, that you don't want to be in a cell. You can start pasting in sequences to replace mutations that cause disease.

• 1:14:16Speaker 00

  You can start pasting in big sequences, like the sequence for cars or other types of things that will make T cells more powerful. So, and this is, I'm focused on T cells, but this is now in every aspect of biology. People are studying this in plants and to make crops that will be drought resistant. People are studying this in, in, in every organ system to understand every type of disease and to build new, new types of molecular medicines.

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  There's one other feature of CRISPR that's really important in this story. It's not just that this CRISPR can cut at a specific sequence, that it's evolved to cut at virus sequences. It's the way that it cuts that has made it really catch on in a way that none of these earlier technologies do. So CRISPR, if you think of it as a, it's an enzyme that can cut DNA. And it can cut essentially almost any sequence of DNA. So how does it decide which sequence to cut? It does it by actually pairing with an RNA molecule. So CRISPR, sometimes called Cas9, which is a particular type of CRISPR system, is a

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  combination of a protein, which is a scissor, and then an RNA that sticks to it. And the RNA is what actually programs where that scissor will cut. Okay, so this, and what's so special about that is that we actually know with perfect, near-perfect precision, the rules of how an RNA will recognize any DNA sequence. There's a complementarity where you can match up and know exactly which RNA you want to design. So you can now cut DNA sequences at will. And it's gotten to the point where now, if we want to cut a piece of DNA, we order a piece of RNA off the internet. It shows up in the lab in a matter of days.

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  We mix it with Cas9 protein, and then that's going in T cells the next day, and we're able to introduce a cut into any DNA sequence. So now, you go back to the genome sequence that was, came out in 2010, and all of a sudden, you can go on the internet, pick a place in the genome that you're interested in studying, order a piece of RNA, make your targeted CRISPR molecule, and make a cut or a cut and a paste at that particular site. And then, in a very tangible way, read out the consequences. You're going into the source code of DNA inside of a cell, and you can, when you make that change, you can say, what happens to the cell? Is it a stronger response? Is it a different response?

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  We can test it in test tubes, we can test it in models of disease, and then, as we learn the rules, we can actually take those CRISPR-modified cells all the way and infuse them into patients.

• 1:17:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Incredible, and thank you for that incredibly clear and detailed explanation of the CRISPR-Cas9 system. A couple of questions. How precise is the cut? Are you damaging adjacent nucleotides, or can you home in exactly on the site that you want to cut? And then if the related question is if you're going to introduce a gene sequence there, how do you ensure that there aren't downstream effects?

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  I mean, I think what you're getting at with both these questions are unintended consequences, and that's always present, right? I think this has been a major concerted effort for the field of CRISPR. How do you get more and more precise? And it's come a long way, but nothing's perfect, right? So I think we've done a lot. The field has done a lot of work to test off-targets, right? If you're programming to cut on one place on chromosome six, do you actually evidently accidentally ever cut anywhere else? And there's a range. Sometimes some sequences are a little bit more promiscuous than others, but we've gotten quite good at getting more and more precise to say, okay, we're making

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  these high-fidelity cuts at one place. There are still the second risks of bystander effects. Okay, you make a cut, what does the DNA get chewed back at the neighboring part? There's been in some extreme places, pieces of chromosomes actually falling off. All these things can happen. And I think what we're kind of at a place in a field where now we're thinking about for each disease, a risk benefit of, okay, there's going to be, there's always a risk for any medicine of some unintended consequences. We have to be on the lookout for them. We have to know what they are. Most cells, as we said, that get a mutation don't have a problem. They just die off. So if you have an unintended consequence,

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  most will die, but there is always the risk of the unintended consequences. And I think as a field, we have to be humble about that. That said, the CRISPR world is not static. And what I, the story I told you was like the building block of CRISPR. It's a protein scissor that can be targeted to any piece of DNA with an RNA molecule. People are appropriately thinking, well, scissors can cause damage.

• 1:19:28Speaker 00

  Maybe that CRISPR molecule should actually be re-engineered, not to be a scissor, but to do other things. And now people have started engineering it to say, well, let's not make it a scissor. Let's make it a thing that just introduces a more predictable mutation at a site. David Lu at Harvard has created these things called CRISPR base editors that doesn't introduce a double-stranded break, but actually changes nucleotides in a more predictable way at that site by recruiting a deaminase domain, something that will change DNA nucleotides when it's recruited to a particular place, and you use CRISPR just to recruit that enzyme that makes that mutation at a targeted place. Other people have actually started using epigenetic enzymes.

• 1:20:09Speaker 00

  The DNA doesn't just get enacted by DNA sequences, but can actually, pieces of it can be active or inactive, and this is called epigenetics, where there can be a stable program of things getting turned on or off without any change in the As and Ts and Cs and Gs. And now we and others are using CRISPR-based epigenetic editing. It's called epi-editing, where we don't make any cut in the genome, but we just turn on or off. And it's in a large part to think about mitigating some of these risks that might come with the scissor function. Instead, all of a sudden, we're thinking about, we're using the same building block of recruiting an enzyme to a particular place in the DNA code, but using the full set of

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  things that we might do at that DNA site to program cells in the most precise possible way.

• 1:20:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast. Meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.

• 1:21:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes. When I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an Element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing. Especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. I'm curious about getting CRISPR into the cells of interest.

• 1:22:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, the lentivirus example that you gave before. My understanding is it involved harvesting some T cells, introducing the lentivirus with the with the cargo that you want, putting that back into circulation and the T cells know where to go and know what to do. For a lot of cell types like neurons in the brain, liver cells, pancreatic cells.

• 1:22:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  I could imagine a surgery where you inject directly into those organs, but wouldn't it be wonderful if you could get the cells of interest from, you know, without having to be so invasive. So what's being done there in terms of trafficking?

• 1:23:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  CRISPR to appropriate cell types and/or organs. And then that sort of seeds another question that I'll hold off on about whether we should be banking cells or

• 1:23:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  for what's coming.

• 1:23:21Speaker 00

  First of all, I just want to pause for a minute. This is, this is great. I love this conversation.

• 1:23:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  I do too. I mean, you're taking us to the, I don't like the phrase bleeding edge. It sounds violent. But you're taking us to the cutting edge of molecular biology and medicine. And we are peering over into what's next. Like what your children and my children and probably our parents also will be able to benefit from in the next 10 years, maybe sooner.

• 1:23:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're really talking about things that are happening now and happening at an accelerating rate. So you asked, part of what just got, made me have that reaction is I think you asked one of the key questions for this field of How is this being delivered into cells? So I told you, let me go backwards and then I'll go forward. I told you that in 2012, I sort of was sitting there thinking about I wanted to study T-cells, the genetic control of T-cells. I saw the power of CAR T-cells. I saw the power of CRISPR, which at that time was being only used in highly artificial, immortalized cell lines that grow easily in the lab. And it just wasn't clear that there would be a way to get CRISPR to work in real T-cells that you would take out of a human blood sample that are not immortalized, that can

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  only stay in a dish for a short amount of time and still retain their function. And I put a, I sort of tripled down on this was what my lab was gonna do, that we were gonna figure out a way. And we went through a long list of different ways that we might deliver, and it wasn't obvious. Actually, a key collaboration early in my career was another serendipitous run-in. I met Jennifer Doudna through some persistence on my own. And Jennifer Doudna and I sat down and started thinking about how could we team up to take her expertise in CRISPR biochemistry and get it to work in T-cells? And we settled on this thing that was not at the top of my list of things that would work, but ended up opening up the field.

• 1:25:15Speaker 00

  We actually purified the CRISPR protein. So we had protein and RNA that we could make in a test tube. Now we order it off the internet. We can mix them together, and we could make these protein RNA complexes, and we could suspend that in liquid. And then what we did is we actually incubated T-cells from a blood sample in that liquid. And then the question was, how do you get these protein RNA complexes into the cells? And we used this trick that's been around for a long time. As long as it's been around, it sounds magical, and no one quite understands how it works. We put these cells into a device that gives a small electrical current to the T-cells.

• 1:25:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Electroporation.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  Electroporation.

• 1:25:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, man, I... During my graduate career, I electroporated a lot of, well, I can just say it now because I don't do it anymore, electroporated a lot of brains of intact animals.

• 1:26:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  You inject DNA, it's floating around in the, in the local tissue, you pass some square wave current.

• 1:26:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:26:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  And the assumption is that it creates little transient pores in the cell membrane, and it gets in, and sometimes you end up with four cells transfected, and sometimes you end up with 40,000 cells transfected. It's a wildly useful technique, but it's a little bit hit or miss.

• 1:26:33Speaker 00

  That's a perfect description. And so we, my first postdoc in my lab, Katherine Schumann, sat there and tested different electroporation conditions, altering these little pulses.

• 1:26:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  One pulse, 12 pulses, long pulses. You're taking me back to my graduate, and to some extent, my postdoctoral years. It's unclear for given tissues, for given sequences, what's going to go into cells, what's going to not kill the cells.

• 1:26:57Speaker 00

  We were walking this tightrope of how do you make this pores big enough that CRISPR will get in, but that the cells don't die. And we did it, you know, and we did it, and we've optimized this, and it was one of those things, when it happens, you see it and you just realize it's binary, like all of a sudden you're editing DNA inside of T cells. And, you know, we got our foot in the door with some level of efficiency. We've gone through the roof. This is now used by labs widely, and it's incredibly efficient. And some cells die, but overwhelmingly you end up with cells that are gene edited.

• 1:27:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  She figured out the protocol.

• 1:27:36Speaker 00

  She really did, and it's been optimized. And then another grad student in my lab came in, this guy, amazing grad student, Theo Roth, and realized that he didn't have to stop there, that we thought we were limited to just putting CRISPR in, and these very small pieces of DNA called oligonucleotides that would just change a couple of nucleotides at a time. Our mindset was like, maybe we can fix a mutation, an individual mutation. Theo said, let's not stop there, let's put big pieces of DNA in. And we've pushed this boundary of being able to say, let's pick a site, make a cut, and introduce hundreds or up to thousands of different nucleotides to be able to really write a piece of DNA code that doesn't even have to exist in nature, but then we have the precision using CRISPR to put it into a particular place in the DNA.

• 1:28:18Speaker 00

  We started a company when that technology worked, a company called Arsenal Biosciences that's now In clinical trials, it's actually in its clinical, third clinical trial right now for solid tumors, it's in a clinical trial for prostate cancer that's about to start enrolling patients. And that company can now do this at industrial scale. It takes patient cells, electroporates them, and has now written a long piece of like 10,000 nucleotides of DNA code that put in a sequence of a combination of different receptors, including a CAR, and additional gene enhancements that will make these T cells more powerful in a tumor microenvironment.

• 1:29:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then they go into the bloodstream, they navigate to the prostate,

• 1:29:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  and they start fighting the cancer cells. And I imagine you can also put, it sounds like you're putting some kind of resilience genes in there as well.

• 1:29:12Speaker 00

  That's exactly right.

• 1:29:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  To bolster the healthy cells?

• 1:29:14Speaker 00

  To bolster the T cells that carry these receptors.

• 1:29:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Got it.

• 1:29:19Speaker 00

  To make them persist longer.

• 1:29:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Better warriors.

• 1:29:21Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:29:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Awesome.

• 1:29:23Speaker 00

  That's happening, and you know, the way that that happens is that a patient will be selected, will go in for a blood donation, give a rather large blood donation, but those cells are then shipped to a facility that Arsenal maintains. The electroporation happens in the centralized facilities, the cells get grown up for a couple of days and tested, they get frozen down and then sent back to the patient, where the cells are then thawed and they get, it's the equivalent of a blood transfusion. Now their own cells have been supercharged to allow them to recognize cancer, but also to have, as you said, added resilience, added strength in that battle against cancer.

• 1:30:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  The cells that have been modified by the CRISPR Cas9, they're sitting in this bag, they get infused, are they designed, is the CRISPR designed to only go after the prostate cancer cells? Or is there some version of this where you can inoculate against a number of different cancers? In other words, if I'm understanding correctly, if there are sort of canonical mutation sequences that occur in all cancerous cells.

• 1:30:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is there a version of this where I give some blood?

• 1:30:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  You or a company, probably a company, electropurates them with the CRISPR-Cas9 system, brings in resilience genes for the T cells, for my T cells, plus some attack genes, right, so that are going to destroy the cancer cells. And then I get an infusion of these when I turn, well, I'm 50 now, so like 52, and then it protects against all cancers that probably are forming at multiple sites throughout my body, low mutations here, low mutations there. Hopefully, they don't proliferate. But is there a way to just short-circuit cancer body-wide?

• 1:31:18Speaker 00

  I think that's a hope that all of us have to some extent. I think these technologies get proven out in patients who, where the risk benefit of an unproven technology is tolerated. And I think that in reality, that means that patients who have exhausted other treatment opportunities get treated, and often those are the sickest patients. And I think there's good reasons for ethics where that's where we start. But our hope is that these technologies eventually will be proven to be safe, because they'll get more and more precise. I hope the cost would go down. And I don't know, you talk about the other extreme of doing it preventatively, but at least we should start marching earlier and

• 1:32:00Speaker 00

  earlier in the course of diagnosis. And the hope is that there'll be, we're already seeing improved tools for early diagnosis of cancer, where we're detecting the earlier signs of cancer. It'd be nice if we have the ability to start treating those early cancers that might be the ones that are the most responsive to the immune system. And then beyond that, preventative would be even better. I think to get there, if we really want to scale up, I think we also have to think about, you sort of, going back to your last question about delivery, maybe it's not always going to be these cells getting shipped to a centralized factory and electropurated. Although that's been incredibly powerful, and it's not stopping

• 1:32:43Speaker 00

  now, we're actually starting academically in an institute that I run, the Gladstone UCSF Institute of Genomic Immunology, we're starting a philanthropically funded CRISPR trial for multiple myeloma, where we're using a different genetic program. So there's a huge number of diseases where we are thinking about what can we do with existing technologies. We're also starting to look for ways that the deliveries of the future will happen. Different people are coming up with different solutions, but one emerging trend is that rather than taking the cells out of the body and then exposing them to CRISPR in these targeted ways with electroporation, what if we could put CRISPR into the body and just send it and address it just to the cells that we want to modify?

• 1:33:28Speaker 00

  We're interested in the T cells, someone else might be interested in modifying lung or heart or neurons, right? For different diseases. And that is a field that is now exploding, thinking about technologies. It's another area where there's just tools that are happening so fast.

• 1:33:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, when I was a postdoc, there was, it was all about, it seemed, for a few years, like different ways to get genes into cells.

• 1:33:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  So there's electroporation, there are lentiviruses, there are adenoviruses, there are calcium phosphate transf落tion, there was, and on and on. One of the things that was kind of interesting, but at the time didn't really go anywhere, was customized liposomes.

• 1:34:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like little fatty bubbles.

• 1:34:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because fatty stuff can get onto and through cell membranes, so it makes good sense, but with some sort of zip coating so that you could inject these fatty bubbles or swallow them even, get them into the bloodstream, and then those fatty bubbles would go to the very specific type of liver cell or brain cell that you wanted. Has that technology moved forward at all, the liposome technology?

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  Dramatically.

• 1:34:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, great.

• 1:34:35Speaker 00

  Dramatically.

• 1:34:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Relieved to hear, and relieved to hear, I wasn't the one that had to do the work because I knew a lot of very frustrated people working on liposomes. Fortunately for me, electroporation adenoviruses worked spectacularly well for my experiments, but a lot of people needed cell type specific in transf落tion.

• 1:34:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Through a vein injection.

• 1:34:56Speaker 00

  So all of these things have gone under rapid progress. The virus, let's talk about the viruses. We talked about viruses as a tool, as a shuttle of DNA. They naturally, each one will have some range of what cells it would infect. This is, for a virus, this is called tropism. What is, what cells are susceptible to infection with any virus? Those would be the cells that you'd be able to deliver genetic material to with an engineered virus. People have really advanced engineered tropism, engineering what cells a virus will deliver material to. And that can be dialed in quite precisely now in a number of different ways. So people are working on engineered viruses that try. There's still problems trying to make sure that they don't trigger immune responses,

• 1:35:41Speaker 00

  but they're getting more and more precise, both viruses and things that have virus-like properties that are sometimes called virus-like particles, that are essentially viruses that can just deliver either DNA or protein to a cell that's specified by what that virus tropism is. And that, and people are working on engineering these tropisms with a lot of technologies.

• 1:36:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because you could put drugs in them, too. I mean, we talk about, you know, like SSRIs have all these side effects. Well, that's because you're getting serotonin, you know, increases at locations you don't want it. You could imagine only getting drugs to certain cells. It's super, to me, it's super exciting and just seems so fundamental. So I'm relieved to hear that there's, there's progress being made.

• 1:36:23Speaker 00

  Anything that can be genetically encoded, you can start imagining these types of targeting. Now, you asked about lipid, liposomes. Now, liposomes have kind of come up with our new name is lipid nanoparticles.

• 1:36:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Lipid nanoparticles. That kind of rolls off the tongue nicely.

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  And, you know, the abbreviation we use is LNP's, but a billion people around the world have now been injected with LNP's. LNP's are the technology that delivered mRNA vaccines.

• 1:36:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Ah, okay. That'll raise some eyebrows. Yeah? No, we're going to talk about vaccines. Listen, we're going every, we're going into it all today. They were liposome bound.

• 1:36:59Speaker 00

  Essentially, these are lipids that can deliver genetic material to cells. And this was done locally for the COVID vaccine, but people are now engineering them with the targeting molecules that he describes, that they go to particular cells. If you inject them into the body, lipid nanoparticles naturally tend to go to the liver. So people are using these already to cure genetic diseases that where the genetic burden is affecting the cells in the liver, because you can deliver CRISPR to cells in the liver pretty robustly with these. I have my strong view on, on the COVID vaccine. I think it was a miracle that we were able to develop something on a short timeline to address a pandemic that was killing, killing people. But. I understand this controversy.

• 1:37:43Speaker 00

  Leaving that aside, lipid nanoparticles are. It's amazing that we were able to do this, that we took something that was an idea. Most people thought it would be an obscure, technical thing, like you talked about, like, would it ever work? All of a sudden, it could be manufactured at scale, could deliver a synthetic piece of mRNA to give a temporary instruction to cells to make a protein to protect us. And whether that's for COVID or for other things, all of a sudden, we're, again, just keep coming back to this theme where there's more and more ways that we can not only understand biology, but that we can intervene in it to treat disease. And so now we're talking about something totally different. We're talking about delivering CRISPR, which is not an mRNA vaccine, but we're talking

• 1:38:27Speaker 00

  about how would we get CRISPR into cells? Or how would we get extra pieces of genetic material, which might be an mRNA, into a T cell? All of this can now be done, even beyond the vaccine world, with the same kind of building blocks of technologies like lipid nanoparticles. Actually, there's a company out of the University of Pennsylvania that actually developed recently a technology to make lipid nanoparticles that could be injected into the bloodstream. Think of them as these little fat bubbles, exactly as you said. But in them, they included a protein that would recognize something on the surface of T cells, so that as these lipid bubbles were going through the blood, they would stick

• 1:39:10Speaker 00

  preferentially to T cells and deliver mRNA to T cells. And you could actually put in an mRNA into T cells that would temporarily make a gene that would encode a CAR, these artificial receptors against cancer. And they've done this now in testing in a number of models. They could actually make these CAR T cells by injecting lipid nanoparticles into the body without ever taking the T cells out of the bloodstream. And I think we're going to see more and more things like that. The pharma industry is all of a sudden saying, oh, there's more ways that we can make drugs. Things don't have to just be pills anymore. They can be engineered proteins, or lipid nanoparticles, or viruses, or engineered cells,

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  whatever is going to be most effective at getting to the root cause of disease.

• 1:39:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  I want to just talk about the COVID vaccine briefly.

• 1:40:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because in my role as a public health educator, I was exposed to a lot of voices. And I can't speak for everybody, certainly. But I think that at least three of the things that caused a lot of divide around the mRNA vaccines were, first of all, the difference between mandates versus optionality. We don't have to go there, but I think that that was a major player, right? People, especially Americans, don't like to be told what to do.

• 1:40:41Speaker 00

  I've noticed that.

• 1:40:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay. Second of all, it was closely related to notions of the shutdown, which differentially impacted people.

• 1:40:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  And that's an understatement, right? Some people maintained paychecks. Some people didn't. Some people could work, some people couldn't. So there was that. I just, I'm not trying to soften anything here, but I think that the vaccines were nested in a bunch of other issues. Again, at least three, this is not exhaustive. And then the other one, and I actually had this concern myself, which was, how is it that it gets turned off? Like, I can imagine a situation where I would want to put an mRNA into me to do something biologically, but then I don't want it to continue to do that after a period of time.

• 1:41:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  So what in the design of that vaccine allowed it to be targeted to the cells of interest and then not continue to express in all other cells in perpetuity?

• 1:41:47Speaker 00

  I'll answer the specific question, but I think the context that you give is also a really important part of this. Now, I would take one second to talk about this. I think, to answer your first question, we talked about DNA as the sort of source code. We talked about proteins as what the DNA is ultimately encoding. Let's just talk for a second about what mRNA is. mRNA is the sort of temporary intermediate between those things. DNA will get what's called transcribed into mRNA, which is another nucleic acid, but doesn't stick around permanently. It is the temporary instruction, which will then go to the ribosome and become the template for a particular protein.

• 1:42:32Speaker 00

  The idea of an mRNA vaccine is that you're using this temporary template so that the cells that will take this up will make proteins from this temporary template for some period of time. Now, there could be some, you can always imagine the extreme outliers of ways that this could last longer or not, but fundamentally, this is, you're putting in an mRNA that gives a temporary instruction to a cell to make a small part of the COVID vaccine. Now, we have the COVID virus, very small part, right? Now, just by comparison, if you get infected with COVID, you're also going to get COVID mRNA is transcribed in your cells.

• 1:43:12Speaker 00

  And, you know, that, so there's, we're talking about genetic material making mRNA either way, whether it's the mRNA from the COVID or a designed small part of that COVID vaccine, of that COVID genome that we're using as a vaccine. So I think it's important to think about the risks in the context of the virus versus what we're doing with a vaccine. So I got the COVID vaccine enthusiastically and I, and I, actually, I think overwhelmingly, my immunology, I mean, I know overwhelmingly, my immunology colleagues did the same. In people who live in this world of immunology, a great enthusiasm that this could be done and built. Now,

• 1:43:54Speaker 00

  That doesn't answer what you said about the cultural phenomenon. I'm talking just as a person, not as an immunologist. But I think we probably haven't done enough to talk about the trauma that we went through as a nation during COVID of being fractured by people dying on one hand and all the negative consequences, as you said, of shutdown. Shutdown of economic life, shutdown of social life. I think it was a period of major dislocation and we're still feeling the trauma. And the people's different relationships with things like vaccine, but of science even more generally, were dislodged or accentuated by this trauma that I think we all collectively

• 1:44:39Speaker 00

  went through and we don't talk enough about. I'll just give one anecdote. Well, I spent a lot of time isolated during COVID and was disheartened by the fact that on one hand I was watching this sort of scientific, like, speed race. That was, you know, actually, I think, one of the highlights of the first Trump administration, Operation Warp Speed, to streamline and get coordination, both on the science and the regulatory side, to get vaccines approved in an extraordinary timeline, taking advantage of a number of technologies and making them all. So I was watching this, the science unfold with some optimism, but also watching the

• 1:45:22Speaker 00

  trust in science being eroded. I developed a side hobby, which is, I've been, I've gone back, I've been reading, I've been reading presidential biographies sequentially. This is just a side hobby. Now, in this, in reading and thinking about this sort of frustration with how science was sort of tearing things apart, I found this sort of strange relief in reading about early American history. In 1793, there was a yellow fever epidemic in Philadelphia.

• 1:45:57Speaker 00

  And actually, the early parties that were forming, the Federalists and the Democrats, actually took wildly dissenting views of how to deal with an epidemic. They had different views of what caused it, whether it was outside contagion or sanitation. And the Democrats, at that time, the Jeffersonian Democrats, were in favor of really extreme bloodletting techniques. And the Hamiltonians, the Federalists, had a totally different set of techniques of baths and more gentle treatments. And they just couldn't see it eye to eye. Why am I saying all this?

• 1:46:35Speaker 00

  I think it's not new territory, that these discussions of how we deal with infections, which are inherently societal diseases, unearth societal tensions, and we deal with them in different ways, and we come to them from different perspectives. And there's a lot of things that are simultaneously being balanced in any decision of how we deal with, thinking about the trade-offs that we're willing to make in the face of a pandemic or an epidemic.

• 1:47:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  I really appreciate that, and I'm also impressed that you're reading these biographies. How do you know which biography to select? Because there are many of them. And unfortunately, Walter Isaacson hasn't written them all. I love his books. So how do you select the author of each biography?

• 1:47:22Speaker 00

  This is an odd... This is a project that I spend a lot of time... Each one, I go through a period of indecision about which one I should read. I can share my list. I'm not done yet. This has been over several years. I'm now up to World War II.

• 1:47:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  You should do a podcast someday. Just know, in your copious amounts of spare time, not as a husband, father, running a giant lab, et cetera, and physician, you could do a podcast and teach us what you learned. Anyway, awesome. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals.

• 1:48:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption—I'd been eating a lot of tuna—while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

• 1:49:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a waitlist of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. I have a question related to technologies to killing or altering cells that we didn't cover, but since we've touched on a number of them—the liponanoparticles, lentivirus,

• 1:49:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  since we're—

• 1:49:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  In a previous lifetime, I used in my experiments and I was excited by immunotoxins. So an antibody against, you generally need a cell surface protein and then you attach to it, in our case, we use suporin toxin, which I think is most infamous because it was put on the tip of an umbrella and used to assassinate somebody on a bridge someplace in some sort of international spy warfare in the last 20 years or so. Suporin will kill you if it goes systemic, but the idea there is that you take the suporin toxin and you tether it to an antibody that then finds a cell surface protein and then kills that cell and only cell. And it works remarkably well in experimental conditions if certain

• 1:50:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  things are right. It doesn't always have the specificity you would like or the thoroughness. Has that been tried in cancer, directing toxins towards cancer cells?

• 1:50:52Speaker 00

  The short answer is yes. It's a really interesting area. And what that toxin is can almost be thought of as like modular, that you can put a different, that you can think of it as two components, right? You have a targeting component. You have, an antibody is a natural one where the antibody is evolved to recognize one particular type of protein. That can be the thing that targets something on the surface of cancer cells. People have then developed what's called antibody-drug conjugates, where basically a drug or a toxin, something that's going to kill the cell, gets appended to that antibody.

• 1:51:34Speaker 00

  And so it's selectively delivered. You don't have to deliver the drug at systemic doses, but you can actually increase the local concentration by delivering it preferentially to the cancer cells that will be recognized by that antibody.

• 1:51:48Speaker 00

  It doesn't have to be drugs. People are thinking about other things. One, people are now trying to attach radioactive isotopes. There's radio ligand therapies that can be attached to these things. And I think in an extreme, that's essentially what we're doing with these T-cell therapies, too. We're also using, when I've talked about this CAR, the chimeric antigen receptor, the outside of it, that is the sensor that's being used, is also a part of an antibody. And so essentially, what we're doing is now using the antibody to target, but instead of dragging along a drug, it's dragging along a cell. And so when that's engaged, the T-cell is there, and the T-cell becomes the killing module.

• 1:52:32Speaker 00

  But the T-cell not only kills the cancer cell, but could potentially be used to amplify that response, could release things and recruit other things. So I think this general way of thinking about designing things to drag something to a cancer site is something that people are thinking a lot about. There's even another flavor of this that are called T-cell engagers. So I talked about, okay, we can genetically put an antibody fragment on a T-cell and use that to direct a T-cell to a cancer. People are also making antibodies that are antibodies on both ends. Okay, so this is sometimes, I think this is a proprietary term, but it can be called a bispecific or a byte.

• 1:53:16Speaker 00

  The byte is a proprietary term. But basically, these are two-headed antibodies. One side will recognize a cancer cell, and the other side will recognize a T-cell, and essentially bring these things together so that you get the T-cell action locally to the cancer cell without having to do any genetic modification to the T-cell. You actually just take advantage of T-cells that are already in the body. So all of these things are now under very active developments, and some of them are approved, others are still in development.

• 1:53:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  Very cool. I'm sure people are catching on to this, but basically if you can understand the structure of things, including very, very small things, you can Lego them.

• 1:53:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you can put all sorts of interesting cargoes and play matchmaker between cells. And it's kind of infinite what you can do. Once you start to understand things at that scale, that's really what it's about.

• 1:54:13Speaker 00

  I'll push it one step further. I'm actually helping to organize a cancer immunotherapy conference here in L.A. I'm simultaneously here for this and for that. I was at the conference yesterday and there was a talk by Amgen, big pharma company. I should disclose, I'm an advisor to Amgen. But this talk was, and Amgen's been one of the leaders in these bites. I think they actually trademarked this idea of bispecific T-cell engager. These are antibody fragments, but one of the leaders at Amgen talked yesterday about how, looking forward, these aren't being used as just traditional antibodies that come

• 1:54:55Speaker 00

  out of animals, but they're actually being used as AI-designed protein engagers of any target you want. So essentially now it's getting to the point where if you know that something's on the surface of a cancer cell, people are increasingly using AI models to design a synthetic protein that doesn't even exist in nature, that is designed to recognize and stick to something on the surface of cancer cell. And that could be one of these Lego blocks for these modular, multifaceted T-cell engagers, or drug engagers, or any of these other things. So this is another area where the crosstalk between experimental capabilities and computational

• 1:55:40Speaker 00

  capabilities is further accelerating what's possible.

• 1:55:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Incredible. Would you mind if I asked a couple of questions about the kind of science sociology and ethics around CRISPR?

• 1:55:55Speaker 00

  No, I would love it.

• 1:55:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'll keep this brief. A few years back, we all learned, meaning the entire world learned, that a scientist in China had done a CRISPR-Cas experiment on babies.

• 1:56:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  I don't know when he did the modification. My guess is it was in utero. You'll tell us what exactly he did. This hit close to home for me because he and I were post-docs at the same time at Stanford, different labs. And the way the news hit the world was very interesting. One of the things I benefit from now as a podcaster and not just a professor is that I can talk about the stuff that perhaps pure professors wouldn't be willing to. So I'll say it. It was very interesting because the world kind of braced but didn't make a decision as to whether or not they were upset that he had done this. Like, put him in front of an ethics board, maybe even throw him in a cell, or give him a Nobel Prize. It was like there was this kind of moment where no one really knew what to do.

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like, do you reward him? Do you punish him? Do you do nothing? And it circulated back to Stanford because there was a question of, you know, what he had learned at Stanford, what was done at Stanford. And the stance, as I recall, was everyone just kind of waited to see how the world treated him. This is not a disparagement of any of my colleagues. I think we didn't understand how to react to this. And then the decision was quickly made at large that he had done a bad thing. And that's kind of the last we ever heard about him or those kids. The Chinese government condemned it publicly. I think they said he was going to be punished, but it wasn't clear if he was going to be punished by being

• 1:57:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  put in a jail cell, being fined, or given a larger laboratory and more resources. It was very unclear. It's playing God at some level, right? It's not the same as deciding to not implant some embryos that were created through IVF because they carry an extra chromosome. It's different than that. It's taking healthy children. In this case, and making a change to try and make them quote unquote "super people." So I would love your thoughts on that particular instance, your awareness, if any, that CRISPR in otherwise healthy humans has continued, and where you think this is all going.

• 1:58:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think you capture a lot of that moment. I wasn't there, but there was an international CRISPR conference that was being held, I believe, in Hong Kong at the time. And the scientist got up and announced with extraordinary pride in one of these sessions in this conference that he had done it, he had done genetic modification of embryos. And my understanding of what had happened was that there were two twins who were, there were parents who wanted to have kids, and the father was HIV positive. And the modifications that they decided to try to make

• 1:59:05Speaker 00

  were to delete a gene that is, if it's deleted, can confer resistance to HIV. This is a gene called CCR5. There's people who naturally have a certain mutation in this, at some frequency, and mutations in this gene confer resistance to HIV if they're naturally occurring. So that was the supposed rationale.

• 1:59:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  So there was a disease aspect to it. Okay, I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for that clarification.

• 1:59:34Speaker 00

  It was a prophylaxis against this potential risk of HIV. Now, there were a lot of troublesome features, from what I understand. First of all, there's state-of-the-art methods to reduce the risk of HIV through sperm washing and things that can be done that would, from my understanding, essentially reduce the risk to near zero of transmission from a father to an embryo. So I think it was a bit of a manufactured need, but there was the supposed justification. Second of all, it was done, so they actually ended up generating two twins. And my understanding of how it was done, and I don't think that this was ever published.

• 2:00:16Speaker 00

  There was some publicity that was released, so I'm sort of piecing this together from what was public at that time, but I don't think any journal ever published this in any peer-reviewed context.

• 2:00:28Speaker 00

  They did this in concert with essentially IVF techniques. So they were fertilizing embryos with this father's sperm, as the mother's eggs. They created multiple embryos, and then they delivered CRISPR into these embryos and trying to create mutations in the CCR5 gene.

• 2:00:50Speaker 00

  There was some variability. It was pretty early in days of CRISPR, and as I said, there's an unpredictability of what happens when you make a double-stranded break in the genome. So it was a stretch to say, okay, they didn't exactly get the mutations that they wanted, but they proceeded nonetheless to implant these embryos. And I know less about this, but there were also serious concerns about the way that consent was done on this, like how much was informed about what the actual benefits would be to these patients. My understanding is that he got up, and I wasn't in the room, but I do think that there was some degree of immediate horror that this was being announced and that it was unfolding in this way and that it hadn't been considered, it was not ready.

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  In the wake of that, the Chinese government then announced that they were going to punish this, and I don't know the details, but I believe that he underwent some period of house arrest.

• 2:01:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay, he was punished?

• 2:01:45Speaker 00

  I believe so. I think after there was some degree of scientific outrage at this.

• 2:01:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, there was this pause moment that lasted maybe a week or two.

• 2:01:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay, well, you're clarifying a lot of the important details.

• 2:02:02Speaker 00

  But my understanding, again...

• 2:02:05Speaker 00

  Is that he's now free and I think is restarting a lab. I don't think in China, I think somewhere else. So the story might not be over yet. So that's my understanding of the facts. I mean, I'll tell you now what I think.

• 2:02:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, please.

• 2:02:21Speaker 00

  I actually have a pretty hard line position on this, which I'm not sure all my colleagues would agree with, but I think that we should have a line in the sand where we do not introduce genetic edits that will be passed on to the next generation. You know, I told you I dedicated my life now to creating CRISPR technologies to engineer individual cells in the immune system. But these are what we call somatic edits. These are making edits to the DNA in individual cells where those genetic consequences will be passed on to the daughter's cells, but not to the next generation of human because those edit, we're not making genetic edits in sperm or in eggs.

• 2:03:03Speaker 00

  If you do it in an embryo, all of a sudden, every cell in the developing embryo will have it, including sperm and egg. And now you've not only made a genetic change to treat a disease, or in this case, to prevent a disease, as you said, in some cases, it'll be imagined to make an enhancement. People have talked about, you know, maybe you want to add, we know genes that would make people be more muscular, or will there be a rush to, you know?

• 2:03:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or enhanced memory. I mean, many years ago, there was a paper, I mean, it had some issues with replication down the line, but where, I think it was Joe Chen at Princeton, introduced maybe a mutant or an extra, I forget now, it's been a while. Case in point, I clearly don't have this receptor, to the NMDA receptor, which is involved in plasticity in a subregion of the hippocampus. The idea was they were trying to make super smart mice.

• 2:03:53Speaker 00

  I remember that, that made quite a splash at the time.

• 2:03:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  I forget where that went. Maybe Joe followed up on that, I don't know. But that would be the sort of thing that people are both excited about and concerned about, you know, could you confer your offspring with better memory genes? But of course, we have no idea if that's a good or a bad thing. Forgetting certain things is very useful as well.

• 2:04:17Speaker 00

  I completely agree with you. And I think the point you made is a key one, that We do have a world, we do live in a world where people do IVF and we do pre-implantation genetic testing and we select, people have the option to select non-implant embryos that have certain mutations. That's already a level of like avoiding disease in a next generation if there's a severe mutation. I think it's not, it's a qualitatively different step to then not just select, but to actually make a genetic change. All of a sudden now you're really hampering, you have the ability to make some kind of mass-produced genetic edit in many embryos. I worry a lot about what this means

• 2:05:02Speaker 00

  for our offspring if they are designed rather than just born by chance. I worry about fads. You know, when you think about like the Pinterest culture that we live in where people see something on Pinterest and want to follow on, I worry deeply about losing human diversity if we see fads in what genes are popular for our offspring and people can order those in concert with IVF. And I don't think we gain enough to come close to what we would lose as a society if we embark on that journey of editing offspring.

• 2:05:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Appreciate the clear stance and answer. As long as we're there, I'd love your thoughts on some of the newer technologies that are only available to those that can afford them, so that's an important caveat, for deep sequencing embryos from IVF. So typically with IVF, check to see that they're chromosomally normal, that they're euploid as they say, and they'll do some sequencing of the parents, maybe of the embryos as well for certain mutations. But there's this whole other industry now, I believe a company in the Bay Area, Orchid, is probably the most popular one or well-known one, where

• 2:06:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  If you pay a certain amount of money, they'll um deep sequence. If you pay more, they'll deeper sequence.

• 2:06:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Um. And so you're getting some additional readout of potential disease genes. And and I've looked at that technology and they're very clear that they're at some point, they can't draw a causal relationship between, say, like a neural leiden mutation and autism.

• 2:06:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  But there are these implications based on the animal data or and so it it starts to become this, it's not gene editing.

• 2:06:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  But it is a deeper and deeper uh gene sequencing based selection of embryos.

• 2:06:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. First of all, I'm I'm sympathetic to the idea, right? Like, we we we want to protect our kids from from from suffering and from disease, right? And I understand the idea of doing preimplantation genetic testing. If you want to avoid a mutation or chromosomal abnormality, that would really impair lifespan or quality of life for your offspring. I the impulse that we know that's this this sort of straightforward chromosomal testing that's done at from the first level does will miss a lot of mutations. So people, I understand the idea of trying to fill that in with more deep sequencing or comprehensive sequencing of the genome. The problem is there are some mutations that if we know

• 2:07:40Speaker 00

  if we see them, we will know that they can be cause severe disease. But there's a lot that are become probabilistic and statistical. And I think we're over promising what can be delivered. So all of a sudden, you're using an algorithm to determine which embryos are more desirable than others. And I think the fact is that it's just it's it's not an axis that actually exists. There aren't categorically more desirable or less desirable. We want diverse diverse people for and, you know, how successful you're going to be as an interplay of like how your genes come around and influence your community, your

• 2:08:20Speaker 00

  your environment. Those are unknowable from just looking at a DNA sequence alone. So I think that there's it introduces a false axis. There's another book that I I would would recommend here that I read years ago, and I actually am probably overdue to go back and and reread this. This predates CRISPR technology, but there's a Harvard philosopher, Michael Sandel, who years ago wrote a short book called The Case Against Perfection. And it's a really beautiful meditation on what's lost when we enter into this illusion of thinking that we can engineer towards some access of perfection, rather than embracing

• 2:09:02Speaker 00

  the beauty of chance and happenstance, which is like a part of our relationship with our kids, with ourselves, of thinking, okay, this is the human experience of, you're a product of some degree of chance and circumstance.

• 2:09:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'll definitely check out the book. I know the whole point of life is not to be a quote-unquote "high performer," but I'll just say as an example, I know of no single very successful person that doesn't have some thing about themselves that initially they disliked or felt that they had to overcome, which led them to pursue certain things, hopefully in a healthy way, and that they eventually came to embrace and are now grateful for. I know of no exception to that. It's just kind of, it's sort of the story of humans

• 2:09:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  in many ways. It's a story of humans. In fact, people who perhaps are told that they're perfect in every dimension their entire lives, I can only imagine the amount of pressure they must feel. In fact, before today's discussion, we were talking about people that we knew that perhaps had been told that and some of the fragility that that can introduce to the psyche.

• 2:10:17Speaker 00

  I think that's really well said. I think it goes both ways. I think things that we think are hardships or disabilities often end up being the things that make us who we are and, you know, make us more sympathetic, give us added depth as humans. And the things that we think are the things that make us perfect are the things that are really holding us back or creating all sorts of false ideas that limit us.

• 2:10:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  I couldn't agree more. I'd love to know what, right now, you're most excited about for your own intellectual enrichment and in your lab and like what you really feel is like the thing that has the most electricity for you. And if you're willing to also give us a hint of what's just right over the edge in terms of what you think will be the next big therapeutic breakthrough that we can look forward to.

• 2:11:13Speaker 00

  Thanks for asking that. So I'm gonna give a little bit of a long and yandering answer that-

• 2:11:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, listen, when it comes to me, you don't have to- succinct is not something that is sort of like exists in my neural circuitry, although I try.

• 2:11:26Speaker 00

  So I see this moment. I talked about clinical trials that are already filling me with hope. I talked about a biotech trial that I'm associated with for prostate cancer. I talked about an academic trial that I put a lot of work in with my colleagues over many years to open for multiple myeloma. And we have a pipeline that we're developing. We didn't even talk today, but we haven't fully talked yet about the idea of CAR T cells for autoimmunity. We left that open a little bit, but that's an amazing moment that we're at right now, that the same CAR T cells that are being used to get rid of B-cell leukemias are also getting rid of B-cells, which are contributing to autoimmune disease. So without

• 2:12:09Speaker 00

  making any change, people are already starting to see incredible responses in the early trials for lupus and other autoimmune diseases with T-cells engineered to eliminate B-cells.

• 2:12:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Fantastic. Could you just mention a few other disease targets? I know a few people with fibromyalgia. They suffer tremendously.

• 2:12:26Speaker 00

  Fibromyalgia is a disease that we just don't understand. Like, that is- talk about understudied diseases. I think fibromyalgia is something that gets bucketed in a certain way, and we just have not- Figure it out what it really is, what causes it. And so that is its own thing. But for autoimmune diseases, these are diseases where we do know that there are immune cells going after our own tissue in various ways. Lupus, people are talking about various engineered T-cell trials for rheumatoid arthritis, for childhood diabetes, for multiple sclerosis, and on and on. But those are a number that people are thinking about, different types of immunotherapies,

• 2:13:11Speaker 00

  including gene-edited T-cells to treat these autoimmune diseases. So I'm already, I guess what I'm saying is excited about the near future of things that have come out of decades of lab work from labs around the world, already starting to be assembled into things that are advancing through clinical pipelines. But the next wave of what's coming up behind that is just as exciting, if not more. So I think that one of the things that makes me feel like I have one of the great jobs out there is I, there's about 30 people in my lab. I get the joy of ideas bubbling up. They don't, the ideas in the lab don't come top-down from me.

• 2:13:56Speaker 00

  They come from grad students and post-docs who have come filled with energy to bring their own ideas. And progress is being made through this conversation of people in the lab, reading papers, going to conferences, talking late at night in the lab. And I can't believe the surprises that are coming. So I want to give you a couple of these. So just looking backwards to 2013, 2014, we were struggling to see if we could get CRISPR into, with electroporation, to make one cut in a T-cell. We could barely do it. Now, if a grad student comes into my lab, within a month or two, they can routinely

• 2:14:37Speaker 00

  do a CRISPR experiment, where we do CRISPR, where we deliver a set of thousands, up to tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of different CRISPRs into a population of T-cells from a blood sample. So each cell will get a different CRISPR modification. And then we can essentially race these cells against each other. So we can put them into a tumor environment and see which ones continue to grow, which ones have markers that seem like they're going to be favorable, and giving them characteristics that are going to be strong against cancer. So we are able to do the The type of genetics that was possible in fruit flies, but unimaginable in human cells, we're doing directly in the human cells that will be the therapies of the future.

• 2:15:19Speaker 00

  We're directly learning what are the genetic modifications that will make T cells do exactly what we want. And one of the things that we just made publicly available is that we used to do these experiments, race these cells against each other and see, race them against each other for one characteristic, which ones would start to make one cytokine. And I talked about these signals that immune cells can make. Now what we can do is we can, for each genetic modification, we can do a complete measurement of the state of each individual cell. This is a technology called single-cell RNA sequencing. So we measure now simultaneously all of the RNA that's in that cell telling us, giving

• 2:16:03Speaker 00

  us a snapshot of what that cell is now able to do. And we can also simultaneously measure which CRISPR was put into that cell. And so now we can essentially inactivate every gene in the genome in T cells and read out the consequences on the overall state of the cells. And this is technology that was developed by a number of labs around the world. We've now deployed this at a massive scale directly in primary human immune cells. We just released 22 million cells where each one has a different CRISPR gene inactivated and we get a map of this. And I think of this, not just what we're doing in T cells, but what other labs are doing around the world, using CRISPR to read out the consequence of every gene in

• 2:16:46Speaker 00

  different cell types and different conditions as a sequel to the Genome Project. We talked about the genome giving us this draft of the DNA sequence. Now we can actually read out the function of every gene and see how each gene contributes to the behavior of every cell. And this is being used with as a basis for massive computational analysis. It's providing us a real roadmap of how cells are wired. That will be the instruction manual for the next generation of T cell immunotherapies. The lessons that we learn about how every gene behaves are now going to be actionable. And these are going to be genes that we tune or epigenetically edit or inactivate

• 2:17:29Speaker 00

  or add to genes that we will now have a recipe book for what do we want an immune cell to do, what do we want it to recognize, where do we want it to go? And we'll have a cheat sheet that tells us, okay, here's what we should be adding or subtracting from that cell genetically to endow it with the powers that will give it precision and endurance against some disease that we want to go after.

• 2:17:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing. I mean, truly amazing. Should I be banking T cells?

• 2:18:00Speaker 00

  Well, I think the good news is that that's a good, I never know what the answer is this. I was going to say the good news is that we largely have T cells. Now, there are, are there exceptions to that? Yes, you know, there are patients who are getting treated for certain types of cancer and the chemotherapy that they're getting depletes their T cells.

• 2:18:23Speaker 00

  It's hard to know, you know, I guess, I can't say that there would never be a use, but I think we're getting better and better at being able to take whatever T cells are there and I hope reactivate them, re-endow them with powers. I would be disappointed if in the future we would need to go back and take, bank T cells and not be able to re-engineer cells that are already there. Are there edge cases where it might be, but it's not something that I would tell people to go out and do. It's not something I'm doing.

• 2:18:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I would only do it if you told me to. A colleague of yours, Yamanaka, won a Nobel Prize for essentially showing that you can take a skin cell, put in a dish, give it Yamanaka factors, as it were, for in some cases only three transcription factors and essentially revert that cell to a stem cell and then give it some other transcription factors and turn it into, I don't know, a neuron or a pancreatic cell. Should we be banking? Fibroblasts and putting them into that ready state, reverting them to the stem cell state. In my mind, I always thought, well, if I ever need more cells of a given organ, I can always, assuming I'm alive, you know, they can take a skin cell and they

• 2:19:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  can do all that. But I could imagine that there would be use for a cell bank, not a tissue bank, where there are a bunch of these pluripotent

• 2:19:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:19:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Huberman, in my case, Marson, in your case, obviously, cells that if, you know, God forbid, I needed a bunch of pancreatic islet cells, boom, they could have those within a week.

• 2:20:00Speaker 00

  This field is something that's been amazing to watch. It's, there's been ups and downs of it, of this induced pluripotent stem cell field that Shinya Yamanaka opened up. One of the interesting areas is actually imagining how these IPSLs could be made into T-cells, which would essentially create a limitless supply of T-cells.

• 2:20:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's what I was thinking. You know, you don't have to even draw blood.

• 2:20:23Speaker 00

  Exactly. Which would negate the need for banking if you had your, so I don't know if, again, it's probably not something that would be cost effective for everyone to have their, their IPSLs are ready to go. I understand from, in conversation from, with Shinya Yamanaka, that one of the things that he has been involved with is actually building sort of a bank of IPSLs that would be compatible, immune compatible with broad sets of different people. So that it could essentially be used as a transplant bank, which would might be a way to be like an intermediate step, that there would be IPSLs available that could be transplanted with various degrees of ease into different people. And then I do think that, I hope it gets easier and easier to make IPSLs that are

• 2:21:08Speaker 00

  matched to any patient when they're needed. So, but I mean, again, like, there's these different threads of things, of being able to make endless supplies of any cell, direct them to any tissue type, and then being able to program them with the language of CRISPR. Actually, it's worth some moment. I, in 2020, I moved my lab from the main branch of UCSF to a separate research institute in San Francisco called the Gladstone Institutes. It's a nonprofit research institute. My grad students still come from UCSF, University of California, San Francisco, but my lab's at Gladstone.

• 2:21:49Speaker 00

  And one of the reasons that I moved my lab to Gladstone was a conversation when they were recruiting me, they brought me into the president's office. And in the president of Gladstone's office was Shinya Yamanaka, who maintains a lab at Gladstone, and Jennifer Doudna, who also maintains a lab at Gladstone.

• 2:22:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  You had to say yes. They're very clever. You had some psychologist in for that. They got your number, say this week.

• 2:22:15Speaker 00

  I described this, and I think this is not just a cliche. I actually remember kind of like that feeling of hair sticking up on the back of your head of like, oh, all of a sudden, these are the technologies that these two humans have made possible and others. But we can now program what the epigenetic state of a cell is, thanks to the Yamanaka factors. You can dial between skin and embryo and then back to anything else. And then not only epigenetically program the cell, but take the power of CRISPR and genetically program. And when you put these things together, all of a sudden, we have this ability to imagine programmable cells that we can dial in and direct their behavior to either regenerate

• 2:22:57Speaker 00

  or to, in the case of the immune system, survey the body and get to the root cause of disease. And my imagination still lies at that intersection of what's possible when we combine that with immunology.

• 2:23:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it. I have one question I don't expect you to answer, but your enthusiasm for this is tangible. I'm excited. I know people listening are. And the question is, how do you sleep at night? Like, it's so exciting. The tools are, they're here. And mostly, I want to say thank you. Thank you for coming here today and giving us a absolute masterclass on the immune system, on cancer, on the technologies to improve the immune system, combat autoimmune diseases. I mean, we got into molecular biology with some considerable degree of depth. And thanks to you, it was incredibly clear. I know people learned a

• 2:23:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  ton. I know I learned a ton. And I'm super excited about what you're doing. Also, just the The heart and soul, there are no other words, really. I think those are apt. The heart and soul that you put into your work is so clear, and you are definitely in the right job. So just, one request is that you come back and talk to us again when the next advancements are made. We'd love to have you back.

• 2:24:16Speaker 00

  I'd be honored, and I just really want to thank you. There are not enough forums that are dedicated, really, to the depth to talk about science. So much of the joy of science is in the details, and you do such a great job of letting those details really come through and sharing them broadly. So it's an honor to be here.

• 2:24:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, thank you. It's a labor of love, and I've loved this. So come back again.

• 2:24:41Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 2:24:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alex Marson. To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

• 2:25:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

• 2:26:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols, in the form of one- to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll

• 2:26:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alex Marson. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

• 2:27:13Speaker 02

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