Malala Yousafzai: Should I get married? How to fall in love as a feminist

Malala Yousafzai was shot by Taliban gunmen when she was 15. She then became the youngest ever recipient of the Novel Peace Prize, but since then she’s been desperate to discover who she really is underneath the weight of the world’s expectations. In this chat with Fearne, Malala explains why skipping classes, smoking weed, and chasing bad boys have all played a part in finding herself, and why her own self-discovery has made her more passionate than ever about women having choices around education, work, and marriage. Malala talks through how she dealt with her own PTSD, and reframes what it means to be brave. She also explains the current situation for women and girls in Afghanistan, something that’s being called a ‘gender apartheid’, as well how we can all direct our anger in a positive way to help girls across the world. Malala’s memoir, Finding My Way, is out now. Support women and girls through Malala Fund https://malala.org/. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: The Good Girl Rebellion https://pod.fo/e/2dc795 Florence Given https://pod.fo/e/27d879 Caitlin Moran https://pod.fo/e/da9e1 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To market, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that encourages a sense of rebellion that helps you find yourself. Today, I'm chatting to Malala Yusuf-Sai.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  Somebody took this photo of me and that photo went viral and there was a whole backlash and controversy saying, shame on Malala for wearing jeans. And I just could not understand what was happening. At college, I just wanted to have the choice to be able to wear the clothes that I preferred. And I also saw that there were some people who were criticizing me for wearing a headscarf because they thought that I was not fully free if I was still following my culture and my tradition. And I disagreed with all of those opinions because everybody was trying to control the way I dressed. But the message that we are promoting, those of us who are talking about women's freedom and liberty, is that women should be able to make these choices for themselves.

• 1:19Fearne Cotton?

  Anyone else feel like that full moon that we've been experiencing has just totally rocked their world? I know that might sound, to some of you, maybe not all of you, wacky, but this week I have felt so exhausted and so discombobulated. And like, you know, when you just have a clumsy week? I mean, it could also be hormones, couldn't it, guys? Or just that I'm bloody knackered. I managed to smash two glasses in one morning. I trapped my finger in the fridge and I've got a massive sort of blood blister on my finger because of it. And generally, just sort of like forgetting everything. I'm just having one of those weeks, like, just off, off-kilter weeks. Are you with me? And I did a little Instagram post about this, but when I feel like this, like, just totally

• 2:01Fearne Cotton?

  spun out, my natural inclination is to stay really busy because I'll just sort of distract myself from feeling like a massive hot mess. But what I've tried to do this week is go against the grain and slow down and at times stop for a minute, just to sit in it. Because I think we want to numb ourselves or not feel the feelings. But this week, I've gone, do you know what? I do feel a bit meh, not like, I'm not going to go as far as saying blue, but just a bit, whatever, so a bit apathetic and extremely exhausted. And that's all right, like, we're not meant to feel bloody brilliant all the time, are we? So that's where I'm at at the moment. Um, I tell you what, my finger that I chucked in the fridge, bloody earth.

• 2:45Fearne Cotton?

  Um, but anyway, that's where I'm at. You might feel the same. It's just also maybe this time of year, it's like, it's getting dark, I want to hibernate, I don't want to ever go out anywhere. I don't know, but anyway, this is why doing these chats is great because first of all, it forces me out of the house and forces me to have great conversations, which are always enlightening, especially today's. And also then you get to hopefully enjoy them too and feel like you've got a sense of connection, hopefully. So let's talk about Malala. I've wanted Malala on the podcast forever. I, I cannot tell you how chuffed I am about this and how utterly thrilling it was to meet Malala. So from the age of 11, 11, tiny child, let that sink in.

• 3:30Fearne Cotton?

  Malala began blogging and speaking about girls' rights to education, especially under Taliban influence in Swat Valley, the place she's from in Pakistan, where girls' schools were being shut down. In 2012, at age 15, Malala was shot in the head by a Taliban gunman while returning from school. Then in 2014, she was the youngest ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. And since then, she's had to navigate figuring out who she wants to be in a world that expects or assumes a lot of her. So this was a really amazing opportunity to get to know her on a personal level, to get to know like her as a human, which often we forget that people that have done exceptional things like this are also, they're humans, they've got human stuff going on.

• 4:16Fearne Cotton?

  We talk about friendships and the friendships that she formed at Oxford, which is a beautiful part of the conversation. The weight of expectation of like being almost saintly, like being an inspiration, what that does to your head mentally.

• 4:31Fearne Cotton?

  And not having the space to sort of mess up or go wrong as a young person bloody well should, quite frankly. We also talk about coping with PTSD, reframing what it means to be brave. We talk about marriage, which is really fascinating, actually, like the values of marriage and the complications that that has brought Malala personally. And also, of course, we talk about oppressed women and girls across the world, which is, you know, we need constant reminders of how bleak it is out there, guys. And for men and women out there, this is an important part of the chat.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 5:39Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 6:10Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 6:12Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 6:14Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 6:17Speaker 06

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 6:32Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 6:37Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 6:47Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, we're going to get to Malala in just a second, but first, a really quick one to let you know that you might want to keep your eye on our Instagram, @happyplaceofficial, because there's going to be some very exciting Happy Place Festival news very soon. So keep an eye on our Instagram. Anyway, shall we get on with it? All right, here's the show.

• 7:28Fearne Cotton?

  Malala, it's so amazing to meet you.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 7:32Fearne Cotton?

  And thank you for writing such a great book. I've sort of almost bombarded you on Instagram recently because I couldn't put this incredible book down. Read it in two days. I just loved it.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 7:44Fearne Cotton?

  I loved it so much. What I was so surprised about initially was, you kind of start the book by saying there's been a level of uncertainty as to who, well, what you know about yourself, who you believe you are, because obviously at such a young age, you were imprinted with everybody else's opinion of what you were, who you were as a person. But equally, you were a teenager and then a young woman trying to figure out life. I was really surprised at the level of that.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Yes, this was the life that I was living. I became known at age 15 worldwide because of the Taliban shooting, but I was still a student. I wanted to have a normal life to make friends, because this is what I had in Pakistan. I had a lot of friends. I loved participating in every activity. I was a troublemaker too. And all of a sudden, all of that was taken away from me. So in this new country, in a new culture, I wanted to get a bit more of that, but it was really challenging for me at high school. I was a late student. I struggled to make friends. And I was very lonely there. And by the end of my school time, I had only made one best friend, and that's because she fell out with

• 8:56Speaker 02

  her other best friend. So at college, I wanted it to be different. I had one goal, to make as many friends as possible.

• 9:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, as I was saying before we started recording, I love the tales of friendship in your book. When you were at Oxford, you made such a great motley crew of friends and got up to all sorts of adventures. And that female friendship is just such a theme of the book. It's so beautiful. I guess also, not only is it a responsibility, but maybe you would even class it as a burden to be told constantly. You're a hero, you're an inspiration, because also you've got to feel that you are yourself. And it seemed, growing up, that wasn't always the case.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  I actually didn't even give myself enough time to process who I was supposed to be. And I was already told by the world that I am brave, strong, courageous. I am now an advocate for girls' education. And it's not just the reception, but it's also the formal titles and awards that I was deceiving. I received the Nobel Peace Prize when I was still at high school. I was in my chemistry class when my school's head teacher called me outside and told me that I had won the Nobel Peace Prize. I was figuring out, like, where am I supposed to be spending my time? Am I supposed to be a normal student or not? Am I supposed to have friends or not?

• 10:18Speaker 02

  So because I could not have that normalcy, I assumed that with an activist life at a young age, maybe I have to make these sacrifices. So I thought, maybe it's a compromise, maybe it's normal, but I knew that I was not being myself.

• 10:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, how much do you think it did limit your experience as just a regular teenager or twenty something? Because there's also that sort of quality that people are like, you're a saint. And that means that you can't have any bad side. And we're all human, we've all, we all have dark thoughts, or we all get, you know, paid off by certain people in our lives. Did you feel like you couldn't at points?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was, I thought like, I'm not supposed to be a normal person anymore. And you have to live up to the expectations. My parents were very protective of me, that, you know, I could not even go to a friend's pizza night. That's how limited my exposure was at home in Birmingham. And I just wish that I could make friends because I missed my friends from Pakistan. I had a lot of friends there and somehow, you know, I I just wanted to be back home. Maybe I could like be more myself, be happier. So of course, like, it is very, very challenging. And I knew that I could not maintain it that way for for that long. So college time became that short window for me where I thought maybe nobody's watching.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Maybe I could be more myself and try these things that I'm not supposed to. And even I don't know what I like and what I don't like, but I wanna find out.

• 11:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. How much did that change your thinking? That kind of level of you're a saint, you're a hero, you're an inspiration. Because I think although there there won't be many people out here watching or listening that have been through the exact journey you have, I'm sure there'd be many people out there who have been told by their parents or people in their life, like, oh, you're the good one in the family, you're the you're the good girl, or like, you're always so kind. And I think it can really limit you just living a normal life and feeling the whole spectrum of emotions that we're meant to feel like. We're allowed to feel angry, we're allowed to feel upset. But when you're constantly told you're the good person, did that sort of mess you up mentally, like, oh, my God, I can't have any bad thoughts?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  So I remember this story. I was at home during COVID time because every class was then virtual. So I was at home and I was remember that I was worried about something and I was sad. And my dad comes to me and he says, why are you not happy? You should be happy. You can't be sad. And I said, Dad, like, you know, there's something going on. But he said, when you are sad, we are sad. But when you are happy, we are happy. So you have to be happy for our happiness. And I just did not like that. I told my dad, no, I have the right to be sad. I have the right to have all of these emotions. Why am I supposed to like live up to these expectations? And I have to stay happy so that everybody else can be happy?

• 13:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  So like even in this like one small example, you can see. How you're not supposed to be yourself. You're supposed to have this constant neutral face or always be smiling. And in college, in these years, I have allowed myself to have these normal emotions because these emotions helped me grow as a person.

• 13:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course. I think most suppression of emotions leads to anxiety.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:42Fearne Cotton?

  I think. And from the people that I've spoken to, or even the therapy that I do, I used to always suppress anger. That was the one, like, you mustn't be angry, don't show anger. And I think for a lot of women, that's the case, that it's, you know, not, not something that we should be exhibiting. But actually, when you, when you push that down, you're constantly covering it over. Of course, it's gonna spill over the edges at some point or manifest into anxiety. I mean, you, you do talk about anxiety.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:08Fearne Cotton?

  A lot in the book. And that seemed to be, you had almost like a delayed reaction, like the PTSD that you experienced. Sort of, you know, landed directly in your university years.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Yes. So I had flashbacks of the Taliban attack that were triggered by an incident at college. And I was going through panic attacks, anxiety. It affected me for months. And it was only when a friend of mine at college suggested that I see a therapist that I actually considered it. Because before that, I thought no therapist or no person would be able to understand me. We all feel that our situation is so unique. And nobody understands our emotions, the challenges that we have. And I was also reflecting on the fact that I was offered therapy in my initial treatment at the Birmingham Hospital. But I prioritized surgeries and medication. I thought this is all I need to heal and recover from the Taliban shooting.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  But the, the, the visuals of the attack were somewhere there buried in my mind. I thought that I didn't remember the incident. But the incident at college actually triggered all of those flashbacks. And I was reliving the Taliban shooting for, for the whole night. I, I changed completely. I couldn't sleep. I was going through like terrible thoughts. I couldn't, you know, I, I could hear my heartbeat. And the therapy changed my life after that. I remember going to the first therapy session and telling my therapist all of my problems and then saying, give me the medication now.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  I thought it would immediately fix it because this is how I had understood therapy, but um I realised that, you know, I should have, can can anybody hear my stomach? I'm just so embarrassed.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  I did ask for a protein shake.

• 15:59Fearne Cotton?

  We can't hear it.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Are you sure? Because I woke up really early this morning.

• 16:04Fearne Cotton?

  We cannot hear it at all.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  I haven't been able to eat much, so.

• 16:08Fearne Cotton?

  Have you? I'm going to give you a second to drink your tea.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:11Fearne Cotton?

  We can't hear it. Don't worry. You must have been embarrassed.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  I'm showing a normal side of me.

• 16:16Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  But I've been too much.

• 16:17Fearne Cotton?

  Everyone, Malala is a human. Her stomach rumbles like everybody else. Yeah, it was, do you know what? That bit of the book is a difficult read because I think for anyone that's had PTSD or flashbacks of very tricky times in their life, it is mental torture. And this was brought on, you know, like you've just said, when you went to university, you wanted to be like a regular young person with a group of friends. And one of the things that you tried was smoking weed once. And this is what instigated these panic attacks coming on.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  I I do not bring up smoking weed because then that becomes a whole different conversation.

• 16:55Fearne Cotton?

  I'm sure.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  And also, you know, I wanted to experience everything in college that every other student was doing. And I was sometimes questioning myself, am I doing too much? Am I breaking some rules? But then I thought, this may be the only time that I can be myself and it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to be rebellious. It's okay not to know everything, but you have to be yourself. And if you don't try it, you wouldn't even know what you like and what you dislike. Of course, the bong experience took a very different turn for me. I, you know, I I inhaled it and suddenly I was in a different reality. I was reliving the Taliban shooting in front of me, my eyes.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  And you know, it just sort of reminded me that maybe what had happened to me, the the memories and the visuals were there. Maybe I had not forgotten it after all. And it also reminded me that it it couldn't have been anything. Maybe it was the bong that triggered it, but it it could have been triggered by anything because I had left it unaddressed.

• 17:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  I thought the treatment was only medication and surgeries, but therapy was an unaddressed part of my uh treatment that had to be done at some point. And I'm so glad that I started getting therapy, even though it was seven years later, I I'm glad that I didn't wait longer than that.

• 18:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it shows how remarkable the mind is that it will do its absolute hardest to forget.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:21Fearne Cotton?

  And it's a protection mechanism, isn't it? Your brain

• 18:23Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 18:24Fearne Cotton?

  is working so hard to go, we're not gonna go there, we're not gonna give you those memories, we're gonna protect you by covering them. But like you say, they're in there. And for anyone that's been through anything, you know, that's been remotely traumatic, it could be any one thing that releases that memory that that triggers it. And then then you do the the hard work of healing from it.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yes, and I think I had to learn so many things that I had assumed were true. Because of the anxiety, later on, I realized that I had the wrong understanding of what it means to be brave. I thought that being brave means you can never be scared. You can never feel weak, you can never feel that you are in the dark. And when this anxiety started, I thought I had failed myself. I was not living up to the expectations. I thought I cannot be called brave activist anymore. And it gave me a sense of failure. But through the therapy sessions, I understood that these emotions are not uncommon, that it happens when we are overwhelmed, when there's so much going on in our lives.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  And it's so important for us to be true to ourselves. And and I realized that when you are going through the most difficult moment in your life, when you are in the dark, but you still do what you believe in, that is true bravery. So people who are going through any difficult time, but they're following their passion. I see them as brave and courageous.

• 19:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I guess many of us have been through the, I guess, like you've just said, sort of getting bravery a bit wrong or resilience or strength. And there's this element that we've got to be perfect throughout it. We've got to navigate everything perfectly. And of course, that's not how life works. It's really messy and at times it is just incredibly hard. How have you felt about those moments where, you know, you've, you've tried something at uni and it wasn't for you, or you've, you've done something that other people in your family don't agree with? That level of self-flagellation that we can put on ourselves, how, how has it been for you sort of forgiving yourself for moments that you might regret or that you felt weren't

• 20:38Fearne Cotton?

  authentic? Do you give yourself less of a hard time because you've been through therapy?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Yes, I did not even know I would be sharing the bong story or I would be talking about these silly fun moments at college because I thought this is not the life I'm supposed to be living. The, the memoir that I should be sharing with people is all about my work and my advocacy and me making the right decision every time. But in this book, I have been very honest in who I have been, how I have learnt along the way. And from start to end, you see me grow as a person. And I still do not think that I have figured it all out and I have answers to every question. I don't. And I don't assume that anybody has answers to everything. It's important for us to recognise how important friendships are, how important love is in

• 21:26Speaker 02

  our life, how important exploration and adventure is, because that's how we learn and grow. So when I think about my future, I know that, you know, I, I may not have answers to everything, but I will ask for help and I will allow myself to, to grow and learn along the way.

• 21:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's, that's why I just couldn't put this book down because you get such a sense of. A young woman exploring life and trying to figure out who you are, like all of us are. I mean, I'm still doing that in my forties, you know, I think it's kind of a never ending path that you choose to walk down when you wanna peel back more and more layers and work out who you are. And it is incredibly honest. I mean, you obviously had so much extra pressure going to university, wanting to live a regular uni life and integrate with people who are on the same course as you. But of course, it's not that simple. You've got all eyes on you. You've got a security team that need to be with you at all times. You're incredibly

• 22:26Fearne Cotton?

  renowned and well known. So instantly, people are spotting you and you talk about people asking for selfies on your first sort of walk around the university. How much of a barrier did all of that create initially for you, sort of trying to integrate into Oxford?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, I could not take away the the pressure and I knew that there were paparazzi and people following me as well. But I wanted to have a normal life as much as possible. So I was trying to like sign up for everything. I wanted to go to every event, every gathering, Diwali ball, Eid party.

• 23:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you signed up for like every course.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Hindu society, Christian society, Muslim society, Pakistan society. I just left like nothing.

• 23:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  I was part of everything. That's why I even signed up for rowing. And I realized that this was not for me because you have to wake up at five AM and you need to know how to swim. I couldn't do any of those. So that was my last rowing experience, but it was definitely worth it because you are putting yourself in these spaces where you had never imagined you would be. And it just knows, it just helps you know more about yourself. But also, you get to meet people.

• 23:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  And I wanted to be everywhere because I thought maybe I'll I'll make a friend there and a friend here. Because at school, I had like literally one friend. And I thought I I do not want to be a lonely student at college. I just want to make as many friends. I remember sitting in the library, looking at the books and the readings I had to do. But then I looked outside the window and I saw my friends giggling and laughing and I wanted to be with them. I knew I could come back to these books any moment in my life. So closed the books, went off and was joining my friend.

• 24:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, again, we get a real sense of you trying to balance the work element. And obviously, everybody knows that if you go to Oxford or Cambridge, the work is immense and it is grueling. On top of that, you want to explore your social life and get the max out of that. And you made some amazing friends along the way. And you still obviously had your public facing life and doing talks and incredibly important work for your foundation. That is a lot to juggle and at times your studies did suffer.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:36Fearne Cotton?

  And again, that added a whole other level of panic for you because there you are as the most renowned person encouraging education for young women, yet you felt you were failing at university.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yes, so one time I had travelled to three countries in a week or so. And then by the end of my first year, when I got my exam results, I was worried because I was at the bottom. I nearly failed my exams and my senior tutor got extremely worried about my academic performance. So she said, we need to have a talk. And I explained to her that, yes, of course, there is work pressure and I travelled during college time as well. And I asked her to write a letter to my parents, my agent and Malala Fund team. And she did that, that really helped because I said I should not travel during the college time. But at the same time, I also knew that I had to figure out a balance between socialising and studying.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  In Oxford, they said that you have to choose two between social life, studying and sleep. And I thought I could like only do one, and that was a social life because I wanted to make friends. So in my second and third year, then I tried to find the balance. By then I had made a lot of friends anyway. And I also focused on getting academic support as well. I was hesitant initially, but it just reminded me that a lot of students get that help for different reasons. They all have different kinds of challenges and. We all feel this imposter syndrome that maybe it's just me and I don't deserve to be here. So I went through all of that, but the academic support changed everything for me. I did not become a first class student immediately. I did not, you know, break some records.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  However, I was doing okay and I became an average student that I deserved to be. And I didn't fail my degree.

• 26:23Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's incredible considering what you were juggling. It's it's absolutely unbelievable. And it seems like you're before you had that academic help, your method was sort of leaving everything right till the last minute and then trying to do it the night before.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I had stayed up the whole night. It it was insane. I mean, I would watch the sunrise every morning because I would be up and I said, oh, I'm gonna go and see a beautiful view and I wasn't the only one, like some of my friends would also be up. And that's when, you know, like everybody is struggling in their own way. But but those moments, you know, will stay with me forever. I know it was chaotic, no sleep, no studying, but it was very, very chaotic, but truly worth it. Because I I had the most amazing experiences there. I became a very adventurous student there.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini. That's G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone. And including dental, vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 28:24Speaker 07

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel. And Maisie Adam. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yes. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, you just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 28:57Speaker 07

  What would you say your friendships, your female friendships gave you during that time?

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Friends are people who you can trust and they create this safety around you. And they gave me comfort, joy and a sense of security. And I could be myself with them. I didn't have to think twice about what am I going to say, how are they going to receive it? And I thought that everything I say is like a political statement and you cannot get it wrong. But with friends, I, you know, I, I just, I felt okay not to have an answer to everything. I felt okay talking about other topics that, you know, were not related to my activism. I was talking about astrology and boys and crushes. It was amazing, like we would go through text messages about, you know, the boyfriends.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  And I remember one of my friends had received, one of my friends was texting her boyfriend, sending long paragraphs, sweet messages and the guy was saying, yeah, nah, busy. And I was like, you, you need to look around.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Are you sure he is the only one? And um so I became more like a relationship counselor as well.

• 30:10Fearne Cotton?

  Very much the agony aunt for your mates.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Yes, and I didn't know that part of myself.

• 30:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  You know, it's it's sort of you don't know how what you enjoy, what you love. And when you are in the company of these amazing friends, they can let you uh be yourself and that that's how you know more about yourself. So I um I loved it. I was happier. I was laughing more. I was cracking jokes. I realize I'm quite funny as well.

• 30:37Fearne Cotton?

  It's so magical. I you know, that's one of my favorite themes in the book is that level of friendship and this amazing gang that you found because you had so much of your childhood taken from you.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:50Fearne Cotton?

  In terms of not only like the physical and mental recovery that you had to go through after the shooting, but just then the the life one eighty that you you took and having this public facing life where everybody's watching you scrutinizing your every move. Like you say, that balance of then having a safe space with these brilliant friends where you could just be you and you could say whatever and not be judged. You could talk about the most irrelevant things and it didn't matter. It's so important.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Yes, like I did not feel judged and I could be myself, but at the same time, they were being honest to me as well. You know, if like I was chasing a bad boy once and I thought, you know, I need to help him out and um and my friend said, no, you need to prioritize your own studies and you are not doing the right thing. And I just loved how there was no filter. They didn't care that they were speaking to Malala, the public figure. They were just speaking to a friend.

• 31:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  And and that was amazing. Like, you know, sometimes we're arguing about something or you know, we're having an honest conversation and I needed that.

• 31:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's a true mate, isn't it? He can actually say, stop, like what you're doing is not good. Stop. Like that particular story with the bad boy, that was a hard relate for me because I've been such a saver over the years. You know, I'll find the person that's kind of, you know, in trouble and I'll want to do everything I can to help them and save them. And you do need a friend to say. You're doing it again.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  I know, I know. I have that tendency to. I'm like, I think I can fix him.

• 32:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  So this was like my first experience of love and it was actually one-sided love. Because it was all in my imagination. This bad college boy who is very, very handsome.

• 32:34Fearne Cotton?

  Always the way.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  I get interested and, you know, I see him on the college bench and he's just like mysterious, reading a book and smoking. And the bench sign says, no smoking. So I'm like, I have to go up to him and tell him, you can't smoke, sir. And he tells me, oh, I'm dyslexic. And I'm like, oh, okay. But then I was like, but he was reading a book and he can't read the no smoking sign. And it just became a whole like story. Every day he would be coming to my room, asking for bananas or any food.

• 33:04Fearne Cotton?

  He'd just come in here with your food and leaves. I was outraged.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  He wouldn't say a word. He wasn't like interested in me. He had never asked a question about my life and what I liked or not. And I would just be constantly like looking at him if he would say a word. And then he disappeared from college.

• 33:19Fearne Cotton?

  Nightmare.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  So he kind of ghosted me. But I just loved the, the fact that I could have the feelings of love. Because not only was I new to the feelings of friendship, I was also new to the feeling of love at college. And in college, I had this whole emotional growth, like in everything, from like therapy, mental health to friendship, to love. Uh, so this was like my first one-sided love.

• 33:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. The, the love stuff is really interesting in the book as well. Like you say, this is a complicated theme for you. And we, we've got the bad boy situation in there. And then we've got your now husband.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:56Fearne Cotton?

  And this was a journey that I felt I was fully in on. I was like along with you on this ride. Because it was a bumpy ride to get to where you're at today.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:06Fearne Cotton?

  So when you first met your husband, you were, you were at a go-kart track.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:11Fearne Cotton?

  Tell us about some of the worries that were going around your head. Cause some of them run deep and they, and they affect many other people in your life and your family, back home. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a big complicated matter for you.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  When I saw him, I immediately fell in love. I thought he was good looking. He was handsome. He was funny. He was laughing at my jokes. I was feeling happier in his company. We went for go-karting, I had a mini-crash and I thought I had a concussion, I was making a whole scene. But he stayed calm and he was reminding me that I was driving very, very slow, I do not need to be worried.

• 34:47Fearne Cotton?

  You literally like a five miles per hour.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 34:50Fearne Cotton?

  Hit some tyres.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Exactly. And then we became friends, we were chatting together, I love talking about cricket and it, you know, we, we went for some dinners together. But it was long distance, he was of course based in Pakistan. But in these years, I was getting to know him more and more and I thought like, this guy is just brilliant, I, I, I love him. But I knew that in our culture, I'm not supposed to have a boyfriend. And we come from the northern part of Pakistan, which is a lot more conservative and my family members are very, very strict as well. So there is no concept of girlfriend, boyfriend and part, you know, partnership and all of these things. If you're thinking about a guy, inform your family and they will arrange the marriage. So I was sort of following part of the rules, but not following the, the rest.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  But I did tell my dad, I told my dad immediately that I am actually interested in this guy. But please don't tell mom because I think my mom is just more strict and like, just don't tell her right now. My dad was quiet and then I see him on his phone calling my mom and my mom told me off. And then they said, okay, like when you finish college, then we will talk about it. But I said, like, why are they immediately thinking about marriage? Because my parents immediately were saying, okay, you know, we'll, we'll talk about marriage when you finish college. So I was shocked, I said, why are they talking about marriage all of a sudden? And it's, it was just like a huge jump, like, do I have feelings of love? Yes, do I want to be with this person? Yes. And then immediately you have to think about marriage.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  And that's something that I thought I had to figure out, I need to know what I feel about it. Growing up as a kid, when I was eleven years old, I had decided that I do not want to get married. I told all of my friends at college as well, do not get married, you don't need a guy. And I was the first one in my friends' group to get married. Yeah, be careful in what you say.

• 36:44Fearne Cotton?

  But it's such a tricky one because constantly you're having to weigh up your family's thoughts, your upbringing, but also this side of you that is naturally, you could call it rebellious, and I'm saying that in the most positive sense, the one that leads to activism, the one that leads to great change. And it's so hard when you're oscillating between the two, you know, because you can't please everybody, as we all know. And you've got strong beliefs, but also you've got, you know, the other part of it is, is the family honour. That is such an important part of, of your heritage is the honour of the family.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:22Fearne Cotton?

  And every move that you make, especially you, because you've got all eyes on you, impacts how other people see your family. That's a, a big weight to carry.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. If I was living in a different reality and if I could, I would have said, I just want to live with him. Let's forget these institutions of marriage. Because marriage in this world has a whole different history of patriarchy. And women have to make a lot more compromises. Also, growing up, I saw my own friends and cousins married off forcefully. And even when they were kids, they were married off. So I just thought that, you know, this is just like a terrible thing that is happening to girls around the world. But even in like developed country context, women still have to make more compromises. It affects their income, their career. And I was like, why would I want more problems?

• 38:14Speaker 02

  I'm an activist for women's rights and girls' education. I do not want to put myself in a situation where I myself have to make these hard choices. But then I said, okay, like, this is the reality that I'm living and I cannot be like leading this other fight of telling everybody, you know what, I'm gonna live with this guy, but I'm not gonna get married. Because I said, okay, I will consider marriage, but I have to do my research. I was reading every author that I could. I was like, bell hooks, please help. Virginia Woolf, where are you?

• 38:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Dolly Alderton.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Please give me a clue.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  And.

• 38:51Fearne Cotton?

  Dolly knows everything.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  I know.

• 38:53Fearne Cotton?

  We love Dolly.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  In the end, it was the time that I spent together with Asar, the conversations that we had. Even me asking him silly questions like, what if your wife earns more money than you? Would you have a problem with that? And he said, what if she earns more money than me? I'll be so comfortable with my life. And I'm, you know, I was like, wow, like he is not insecure.

• 39:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  He is celebrating the success of his partner and he wants us to be happy together. And then we went to Lake Placid. That was a beautiful experience and I had prepared even a longer list of questions for him. Because I said, this is it. This trip is a yes or a no, like I'll find out. And there, like when I saw him, immediately I thought like all the questions just vanished.

• 39:42Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  And we were doing yoga and we were having dinners together. We went for canoeing.

• 39:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  And we got lost in this, in the middle of this lake. And all of these experiences just helped me see a side of me where I was happier. And I was enjoying my time and he, his presence was everything in my life and I knew that he was the right one. So by the end of that trip, he said, so are you gonna like ask me any question or not? And I told him that I think I have the answer.

• 40:14Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  And the answer is I'm ready to get married.

• 40:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. So then we decided to get married.

• 40:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's a beautiful story. It's so beautiful.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yes. But I do not regret it for a second.

• 40:25Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  I took my time and did my research and I had all of these confusions.

• 40:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Because this is what women go through. And you know, somebody like me who is very secure financially and knows about her rights and is even advocating for other women and girls. Why would I be worried? But it's the reality that, that you know, this is what I have seen growing up. This is. This is the the question that women immediately have. Am I safe? Am I secure? Is my life going to be in any threat or not? Is this gonna bring more joy or more hardships into my life? So these are very, very basic survival kind of questions that we have to address when we make these decisions. And I, you know, can't imagine how other women make these choices for themselves. The most important thing is that you should be happy with your choice.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  And I'm not saying that marriage is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm not telling anybody, never get married or you must get married. It's completely up to you.

• 41:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Um, but it it should add more to your life.

• 41:27Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt, and I think it's an amazingly sort of considered conclusion that you came to that many people don't. You know, we sort of rush into these things because we're told this is how life works. You go to college, you get a job, you meet someone, you get married, you have kids. And sometimes you just find yourself in that path without making these, without creating these questions that actually do need answers. And especially knowing what you know and working with your foundation, knowing that so many young girls are still in arranged marriages and are beyond unhappy.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 42:02Fearne Cotton?

  And one of the stats in the book that sort of freaked me out massively, and you know, I should have been more aware of anyway, is the stats around women in Afghanistan.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 42:11Fearne Cotton?

  Who have no rights to education, banned in public parks, gyms, pools, must remain silent in public. And it's actually the one of the only places on the planet where the suicide rate is higher for women.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:26Fearne Cotton?

  Than it is men. I mean, these, these are awful stats to know, but we should all know about them. It's sort of unthinkable.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's been more than four and a half years that Afghan women are living under the Taliban. And it's a, it's a terrifying time for Afghan women and girls. And the Taliban took over the exact week when I was receiving my last surgery to recover my facial nerve that was hit by the Taliban bullet. And I was just reflecting on how many surgeries and treatments I had to get to recover from one bullet. I cannot imagine what the Afghan women and girls have witnessed and the bullets that they have taken. And we have seen the reality, people gave a second chance to the Taliban. Everybody said that they're different, but women were crying and screaming that they are the same old Taliban.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  And the oppression of women is so fundamental to their ideology that if you remove that, they're not the Taliban anymore. This, this is how they symbolize their presence, that they restrict women, they do not allow girls to be in school. They do not allow women to be at work or in the parliament. And these women had worked for more than twenty years to get these rights back. They were making progress and the Taliban just snatched all of that immediately. And they have erased women from public life. But you know, in this time, they need our support and solidarity. We are supporting their campaign globally to push countries to do more, hold the Taliban accountable. And also support the programs like support the Afghan women in exile or support alternative education.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  One of the programs that we support in Afghanistan through secret underground schools. I arranged a call with some of the girls on Zoom. And the girls were telling me that they are determined to keep learning. And one girl said that even at home, when she's holding a book, she feels that she is fighting against the Taliban. That it is an act of resistance for her.

• 44:26Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, that's just something that a young kid shouldn't have to feel. I mean, it's incredible you're doing this work. I, I mean, it's, it's so anger making that this is the situation for young women out there.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  You can imagine how angry I have felt in all of these years because, you know, I went through that. I was eleven years old when the Taliban banned girls' education in my hometown. And I had to speak out because I knew I do not have a future without an education. And I'm so grateful that I have received so much support around the world. But I thought that support is not for, for me or to celebrate my survival, but that support is for girls everywhere.

• 45:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  And it shook me when I realized that at the time of the fall of Afghanistan, how world leaders were looking away, especially men world leaders. And they did not understand what was to come or they just ignored it. And I remember some of the, like, the women in leadership positions, they responded like from the US, Canada, Qatar, or Norway. And it's just a reminder to women everywhere that our rights are at risk. Tomorrow, it can happen in any country where an oppressive regime could take over and they can take away everything for women. So we need more protection. Afghan women are leading a campaign. They're calling what's happening in Afghanistan a gender apartheid.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  They want it to be codified in the international law. So I'm like supporting all of that through Malala Fund. But it's just a reminder to women and girls that our right to education, our right to work, our right to freedom, our right to making choices about our body are so fragile and they are at risk. And we need to do more and we need more support and solidarity for each other.

• 46:14Fearne Cotton?

  It's just mad, isn't it, that this is going on in the world and that it's just it. I think we all get so stuck in our little bubbles that we forget that this is such a huge issue globally.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:26Fearne Cotton?

  What do you do with that anger? Because it's so anger-making, knowing that this is going on in the world. And if you don't do something with that anger, obviously so much of it is channeled into your activism. But what do you do with it when you're feeling like the injustice is so severe?

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:44Fearne Cotton?

  That it's like in your body, that anger, what do you do with it?

• 46:47Speaker 02

  It is very difficult to process the anxiety, the stress, the anger, especially when you feel helpless. Like you, again, I, I think about the Afghan women activists who are still in the country. They're putting their lives at risk and they're protesting against the Taliban. They're providing education through underground schools or online platforms. I think about the Afghan women who sacrificed their lives and they are now in exile in different countries. They are fighting for Afghan women and for freedom in their country every day. They want their old life back. And for me, it's just, it's just sharing solidarity with them, supporting them.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  I know that their voices are the most important because, you know, as much as, like, I, I feel helpless at times, but then I know that they are the most important voices that need to be heard. The Taliban are silencing and erasing women. So let's uplift the voices of Afghan women. They do not allow them to play sports. Let's support the Afghan women's teams in exile and let them play. They do not want women to sing and dance and perform their art. Let's find ways for them to be able to do that. So, you know, they do not want a girl to get her education. Let's provide her the tools that she can learn. I hope that the, that the reality changes soon.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  I am determined that Afghan women and girls will have their freedom and their rights back. We have to keep fighting for it. It's just a reminder that we had a false hope for women's protection. And it does upset me that this is happening, but at the same time, I'm like, yeah, it's, it's just a reminder. It's a reality that, that we have to face. We have to do a lot more than we thought.

• 48:34Fearne Cotton?

  And you have to, without this saying like massively reductive, you have to remain hopeful. Otherwise you'd give up.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 48:39Fearne Cotton?

  Hope seems like a key element to all of this.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  I, I don't even think it's, it's a choice we have to make. It's the only way and giving up is actually not an option.

• 48:51Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's absolutely not. I mean, if people are listening to this now thinking, oh, God, I, I, I want to do something about this. Like, how could I be of any help? What, what action can we take? What can we do to actually be part of this?

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Afghan women need support and solidarity. If you come across their stories, if you know anybody in your community, go meet them, join their campaigns. You can write to your representatives as well. They have a say in the international conversations. Like, ask them what they're doing for their commitment to gender equality. Like, that means protecting Afghan women. You know, we talk about feminism and and all of these policies, but if they're not protecting girls' education right now, they're failing. And you can also support different organizations for Afghan women, or you could support Malala Fund. Through Malala Fund, we give grants directly to Afghan women activists and their organizations who are working in the country in exile. And

• 49:48Speaker 02

  you can support the alternative education programs as well.

• 49:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's incredible. Well, we'll put it all in the show notes, too, because I think there's going to be a lot of people out there that are just going to be, you know, wanting to do something, anything. Because like you say, you know, if you're feeling helpless, I think most of us are just thinking like, what can I do to impact any of it? But of course, collectively, there's there's power there.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I sometimes think that is asking for the right to education for girls too much to ask for. And that is that is the question for our leaders, for our representatives. Is that too much to ask for? Can a girl have the right to learn, to be in a school?

• 50:29Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 51:01Speaker 04

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• 51:33Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 51:35Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 51:39Speaker 06

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 51:47Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 51:54Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 51:57Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 51:59Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 52:02Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 52:10Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you make this, this point during a story in the book where, you know, since the age of 15, or even predates the shooting, you've been very vocal about all of this. And people have listened and people have been there. But actually, one of the noisiest times was when you decided to wear a pair of jeans. That seemed to create such a furor, which I guess is no bad thing in terms of you've got more people listening, whatever you do, you know, you choose to wear jeans, people are outraged about it, more people are listening to the cause, especially women, because they're more outraged that you're getting, you know, a load of abuse for wearing a pair of jeans at university.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was very careful in the beginning at university because I thought somebody would take a photo, put it out of context, and there would be a whole controversy. I was not expecting that it would be my jeans. And somebody took this photo of me, of course, without my consent, and that photo went viral. And there was a whole backlash and controversy saying, shame on Malala for wearing jeans. And I just could not understand what was happening. Why was I not supposed to wear casual university student-like clothes? Because I wanted to look like every other student. I know when I wear my traditional Pakistani

• 53:32Speaker 02

  shalwar kameez, I look more like the public figure that I am. So in college, I intentionally did not want to wear that. And I am proud of my dress and I, and I love wearing it. Even right now, I'm wearing it. But... At college, I just wanted to have the choice to be able to wear the clothes that I preferred. And I remember getting a call from my parents. They were really upset and I told my parents that I am not going to defend myself on this. And people will always have something to say, I'm not here for some pilgrimage, I'm here to be a student.

• 54:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  And I reminded my dad that when my brothers moved to this country, they immediately switched to jeans and tops. Nobody criticised them, there was no controversy. But I decide to wear jeans right now and it's a problem. So it's women and girls who have to take the burden, who have to cope with the trolling and the abuse. And we cannot allow that. So I I I never defend myself, people always have something to say that is very, very crazy. If it's a helpful input, I take it, but other than that, I know there there'll always be something.

• 54:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean trolling is never helpful input, ever. It's just, it's just not. And you were called everything from, you know, too casual to a porn star.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:50Fearne Cotton?

  Which is wild.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Yes, and I also saw that there were some people who were criticizing me for wearing a headscarf. Because they thought that I was not liberal enough or I was not fully free if I was still following my culture and my tradition. And I disagreed with all of those opinions because everybody was trying to control the way I dressed. But, you know, the message that we are promoting, those of us who are talking about women's freedom and liberty, is that women should be able to make these choices for themselves.

• 55:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  And freedom and liberation is not following just the Western culture, but like it it can look different in every culture. It's about women and girls having the ability to make choices for themselves.

• 55:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  That's the most important thing.

• 55:33Fearne Cotton?

  Too right, and that's exactly what this whole chapter of your life has been about, is finding out what you want. Not what everybody else is telling you you should be or how you should live. It's it's what you want, and that's never an easy path.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:47Fearne Cotton?

  For the majority of us, if we stay in line, if we fit in with what pleases other people, life is seemingly easier, although it's not, because you're constantly not showing up authentically and not working out who you are. Do you feel at this point in your life now, with everything you've been through, and having that as normal as it can be experience of going to university, that you're any closer to knowing who you are?

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Definitely. I am more of myself, I'm at peace with myself.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  I have a lot of friends, I have found love. I know how I want to do my activism. Girl's education is my lifetime mission and I want to see that world where every girl can go to school. But I also have a better understanding that this is a lot more difficult and it's more complex. But I'm determined to ensure that every girl, especially those who are banned in Afghanistan, can go to school. And every child can have a normal, safe life. And I also know that I will not have an answer to every question in my mind. As I explore the coming years, there would be so many things that would be happening for the first time.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  It's okay not to know it all, it's okay to to make mistakes, to be confused, to be adventurous. Yeah. But the most important thing is that I stay true to myself and that I ask for help when I need it.

• 57:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, I think we're all trying to aim for that in some way, to find that level of peace that.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:16Fearne Cotton?

  You know who you are and you know how to move through life because of it.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 57:20Fearne Cotton?

  And for you, obviously, it's it's so much more complicated because you've always had that scrutiny and that that outside opinion living alongside you. Yet the one person that seems to be the trickiest maybe to mitigate is your mum. And that is, you know, a relationship that you so beautifully, honestly portray in this book.

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:40Fearne Cotton?

  You know, many of us have got complicated relationships with parents, but you and your mum, you know, you seem to clash quite a bit.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:46Fearne Cotton?

  Throughout the book.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Yes, you know, my mum's story wasn't like the perfect story. I would happily share my dad's story oftentimes and say he was a very supportive father, an exceptional father in our community. Because, you know, he did not stop me from speaking out. And I would always tell people that there's nothing unique in my story. The only thing unique is that my dad did not stop me. And on the other hand, my mom's story was very different. She was very strict and she was always worried about what I wore. She wanted me to to wear Pakistani traditional clothes always so that there's no controversy and nobody has any issue if I wear jeans or, you know, I change my outfit style. And she said, just just follow the traditions. Let's not upset anybody.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  And this is how you will stay safe. And I understood later on that she was partly saying this because she had a very different childhood herself. She never went to school. All of her cousins and female friends were married off when they were children. And they were expected to just have kids and that was their role, just be a housewife. So for my mom, you know, it was about protecting her daughter. She did not want there to be another story of a girl being killed in the name of honor or, you know, acid thrown on her face or beaten up because she's disobeying a certain rule. She's wearing clothes of her choice or she's sharing an opinion that the society does not accept.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  But I also knew that, you know, we were in a different context now and we had to to challenge some of these patriarchal traditions that do not benefit women. So my mom and I would always have this fight and debate. It was like in everything, even as simple as packing my clothes for college. She was throwing in all of my Pakistani bright, colorful clothes while I was, you know, secretly putting in jumpers and jeans and sweaters. And I was looking up on Google, like, what is this casual wear that students are supposed to wear? And I even searched Selena Gomez casual, because I thought I need to follow the trend. I need to be fashionable.

• 59:59Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:00Fearne Cotton?

  But it is interesting how often, you know, we'll have critics in our workplace or maybe friends of friends or whatever. But it's usually your mum that you're scared of. That's the opinion.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:13Fearne Cotton?

  Like even like you were saying, when you first met your now husband, you said to your dad, don't tell mum. It's that there's always that one person in your life that you're like, I I'm you're still scared of their opinion and their critique. For anyone out there that's. Desperately wanting to show up authentically, desperately wanting to live life in their way. And they know they're not. They know that they're, maybe it's scared because of outside opinion or their confidence is knocked because of what somebody's said to them previously. What would you, what would be your advice for cultivating that confidence that's needed to show up truly as yourself?

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I reflect on my own journey through college, I have noticed a few things. Firstly, I did not change immediately. It wasn't that on day one, I was this confident self and I was a new person. It actually took me months and years to change as a person. I was allowing myself to make these difficult decisions and try to experience new things. You know, I was like, okay, in the beginning I said like no clubs or no partying, but just talk to friends. And then I said, you know what, if people are criticizing my genes, they'll just criticize anything. So I went to a, to a club with friends as well. And that was like my first night, just like dancing with my friends and enjoying the music and just being like any other student.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  And I allowed myself to experience love and to have these emotions and it helped me grow as a person. So I think, you know, sometimes it's like one thing at a time, but it helps you know who you are. And you also experience things and you don't feel comfortable. You're like, that's not me.

• 1:01:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  But I think the most important thing is to be true to yourself and, and you know that, you know that more than anyone else. And to have the right people around you and to be more, to be kinder to yourself.

• 1:02:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  To be kinder to yourself.

• 1:02:07Fearne Cotton?

  We're all so mean to ourselves, like constantly.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:02:12Fearne Cotton?

  That is a lifelong lesson for me. I have like good phases of it. And then I notice the bad habits coming back and you're like berating yourself mentally or

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:02:21Fearne Cotton?

  Never feeling like you're doing well enough. And I think most people on the surface would be surprised to believe that you would have those thoughts or be mean to yourself with the amount of amazing accolades you have and what you've achieved and the, you know, the positive changes that you're making. But you still have those very human self doubtful moments.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I do not think that the doubt has gone anywhere.

• 1:02:46Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  I still feel confused at times. I am skeptical at times.

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  Even about the activism that I do, I am determined to see a world where every girl can go to school. But I'm constantly questioning, what is working?

• 1:03:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Am I being impactful or not? Am I doing it the right way or not? Um, sometimes I feel really upset about the way the world is right now. All of these questions are like constantly on my mind, but it does not stop me from doing something. I know that these emotions are are normal and the more we talk about it and and normalize it, it makes us ensure that we do what we want to do. It should not stop you from doing what you want to do. And I think this is so, this is a very important message to communicate out there. Sometimes those of us who are seen as activists, people feel like we never even question anything. I am always in this like existential crisis all the time.

• 1:03:43Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I would love to finish things by asking you, where is your happy place, Malala?

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Oh, happy place, so many. I love being with my husband. I think that's like when I'm the happiest. He's so supportive. We love TV shows together, play sports and just talk. He's very, very funny. So he makes me laugh all the time and he's, he's just very loving. But then I also enjoy my time with my family, with my friends. We giggle and smile together. But one moment that will always stay with me is when I met the schoolgirls that we support in my parents' village in the north of Pakistan. I visited them this spring and it was like seeing my dream come true. We built this school in a village where there was no high school for girls.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  And seeing the first class graduate from there who had dreams and ambitions for the village, for themselves. I felt that the dream I had was becoming a reality. And I'm optimistic about this reality for every girl out there in the world to have the right to an education and to choose their own future.

• 1:04:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's an amazing happy place. I love it. Malala, thank you so much and just all the strength and power to everything that you're doing.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  Thank you so, so much. It was brilliant. Thank you.

• 1:05:03Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God. I'm not going to forget that in a hurry, am I? What an opportunity. This is where I feel so lucky getting to do what I do, getting to sit and chat to Malala for a whole hour and getting to know her as a as a human being, one that has, you know, millions of thoughts and worries like we all do. It felt so wonderful and I hope that you enjoyed it too. I mean, the whole day for me and the Happy Place team was sort of thrilling. There were all of these security guards, special servicemen walking around, making sure that she's safe and okay at all times. And that made me incredibly nervous. Actually also awkward. When things get really serious, I don't know how to be me.

• 1:05:43Fearne Cotton?

  I forget how to be a human. I go so awkward. I became so awkward on that day. I had to really go into the bathroom and give myself a talking to. Anyway, hopefully I was normal by the time we started that chat. But I bloody love that. Malala's memoir, Finding My Way, is out now. I read it in two days. It's brilliant. You must read it. Another incredibly influential woman on the show next week. We have got a run of them and boy, am I excited about it. Or should I say, woman, am I excited about it? I think you're going to love her. So make sure you go back here for that one. In the meantime, a massive thanks again to Malala, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you because you are all bloody exceptional.

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 1:07:24Speaker 04

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• 1:07:55Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 1:07:57Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 1:07:59Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 1:08:02Speaker 06

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 1:08:10Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 1:08:16Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 1:08:20Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 1:08:22Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 1:08:25Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.