159: Machiavellian Rules for Warfare, and Life."The Art of War", Niccolo Machiavelli.

0:00:00 - Opening. 0:16:00 - "The Art of War", Niccolo Machiavelli. 1:23:15 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:32:00 - Support: How to stay on THE PATH. 2:03:44 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 159 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  There's a

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  a terrible feeling in the gut

• 0:20Jocko Willink?

  that I've only felt

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  while I was overseas in Iraq and it's it's this deeply distressed kind of sick feeling.

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  And it literally feel it in your gut, literally feel it in your stomach, in my stomach. And it's not, it's not the fear, it's not fear.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  It's not, it's not the fear of death.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  Because when you get to a point when you kind of accept that death is a possibility and you're okay with it, then that fear kind of goes away.

• 1:08Jocko Willink?

  And it's not the fear of one of your guys being wounded or killed. It's not that either. Because even that fear, even that fear, you, you, you kind of get a control of that fear. Because you know, you can't dwell on it because you know, if you dwell on the fear of one of your guys getting wounded or getting killed, then that's going to detract from the very thing that you're supposed to be doing that will most likely prevent your guys from being wounded or killed.

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  If you're dwelling on that fear, you won't be doing the things you should be doing like planning and training and preparing and inspecting and reviewing and leading.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  So even that fear, while it's persistent and heavy and potent, it's, you have some level of control over it.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  But when something goes wrong, when something happens,

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  and you're responsible and the burden of command settles down with its monstrous, monstrous weight on top of your shoulders,

• 2:27Jocko Willink?

  because there's no one else to blame, that's what I'm talking about. And actually, I felt it for the first time, really,

• 2:37Jocko Willink?

  a little bit during my first deployment that I did to Iraq and my platoon. We, we did what we were supposed to do. Some things didn't go right. Nothing crazy, but mistakes were made. And there was actually back to back to back missions with related targets that we were going after. And I was the assault force commander. And I think one of them, I might have even been the ground force commander. So I was clearly responsible for these missions and there were some mistakes made. And my commanding officer came and spoke to me about it, you know, pulled me aside to point out the mistakes and the resulting impacts that these mistakes were going to have. And he wasn't happy.

• 3:22Jocko Willink?

  I mean, he wasn't, he wasn't mad because we had a good relationship and he was talking to me just straight. But he wasn't happy. And, you know, I kept a calm face and I took ownership and said, hey, my fault. This is the things we're going to do to fix it, you know?

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  But even though I kind of kept a calm face in front of him when he left, I, again, I felt like this retching in my stomach that, that I had made some kind of mistake. And, and one of the worst things about it is there's nothing you can do. Like the mistake happened. You can't go back. You can't fix it.

• 4:00Jocko Willink?

  And I can't compare that feeling to anything else really that I've felt. Cause I've never felt anything else that feels like that. And I've, I've talked about it with my friends in leadership positions. Overseas and, and like, actually the first time, uh, it was actually Stoner that talked to me about this, this gut feeling. And he had something going on and you know, he's like, he's like, you know that feeling? And I was like, oh yeah, I know that feeling.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  And like I said, I've never, I've never felt this feeling, this gnawing feeling in your gut that's eating you from the inside. I, I think you see it sometimes. Um, if you watch, you know, some movies try and capture this feeling. Of where it's basically where someone's life is falling apart, but they're trying to keep a facade up that everything's going okay. Have you ever seen the movie Fargo?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay. I got you on this one. This movie Fargo, there's a guy and he's, he's a car salesman and he's been fudging the numbers and then he's, he's, he's trying to kill someone. There's all these things are happening and it's all, and he's a very, I would say a very naive person. And he's, you know, married and he's got kids and he's trying to do this stuff that's not right and he knows it. And it's starting to come apart. And that, that's the kind of thing where you can see it's just eating him from the inside. So I think it's that, that type of gnawing, deep feeling where everything is going wrong and there's nothing you can do about it.

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  That's the, that's the closest I, I think I can come is, is just when things are going so wrong and there's nothing you can do about it. And I think that that feeling, that feeling for me, I think that's why, number one, that's why I always say combat is humbling. It's because of that feeling right there where you, something went wrong. You couldn't stop it. You couldn't control it. You can't fix it. It is what it is. And

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  that makes it humbling, extremely humbling.

• 6:15Jocko Willink?

  And because of that,

• 6:18Jocko Willink?

  it made me want to make sure that I did everything humanly possible to prevent from that, to prevent that feeling from grabbing hold of me again, if, if I could help it. It opened up my mind. It made me,

• 6:34Jocko Willink?

  it made me always want to listen to other people's input. Cause I always said to myself, wait, if I didn't see what was going on over here, how do I ever know where my blind spots are? I always think I must have blind spots somewhere. There must be something I don't see, something I don't understand. How can I listen? I, I need to make sure I listen to other people's viewpoints and perspectives so that I don't, so I can cover and, and yeah, cover as many blind spots as possible.

• 7:05Jocko Willink?

  Review other methods and other ideas and other principles to see what I could learn from them. And when people raise opposing points to me, I don't object to them. I, I don't bristle up and it's,

• 7:23Jocko Willink?

  I, it doesn't offend me. When somebody says something that, that isn't, that I don't agree with, it doesn't offend me at all. In fact, I want to know more about it.

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  And

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  as I, as I go through my life, I try and continue to listen. I try to absorb opposing opinions and process them and I want to just understand them. I want to understand the context of them. I want to understand the perspective of them. It's, it's how I think I'm going to eliminate as many blind spots as possible. So when someone would tell me like a new tactic, right? New tactic when I was in the, in the teams and someone say, hey, we're doing this now. And there's of course, when somebody tells you something new, there's always a part of you that says that bristles up to it. And I, again, those humbling situations, that feeling in my gut that I didn't want to feel,

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  it, it pushed that, that ego down. Because I actually want to hear what your idea is. I want to hear if this is a blind spot I haven't noticed. I want, I want that idea to work. I want to see how it works. I want to see if it works. And sometimes they would work. And it's, and I would learn something. Sometimes they wouldn't. You know, sometimes it would reconfirm the reason, and then that person would learn, hey, the reason we don't do what you're wanting to do is because of this. And so now I'm helping them with a blind spot that they might have. But either way, my goal was always to learn.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  To hear other people's viewpoints, and that's the way I remain today. Those other viewpoints are going to make me sharper. I'm going to read things so that I can see them from other angles. Understand things from other angles. They can, when you understand something from another angle, you can strengthen your position. Or you can leave your position if you realize that your position is wrong.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  And I, and it's going to make me better. And it's making me better, not for me, not because I want to be better, but for the people that are around me, the people up and down the chain of command. That I'm trying to support them.

• 9:37Jocko Willink?

  So I can do my job better as a leader, as a follower.

• 9:41Jocko Willink?

  And as a person. And also

• 9:46Jocko Willink?

  so that I can, as much as humanly possible, avoid that wretched, seething, miserable feeling in my guts.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  So I was thinking a lot about that and tonight we're going to explore some principles of war actually called general rules.

• 10:14Jocko Willink?

  By this individual Machiavelli, this is the Machiavelli, Niccolo Machiavelli, this is the guy that wrote The Prince. He's

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  got all kinds of great quotes out there. It's better to be feared than loved if you can, if you cannot be both. He's got never, never was anything great achieved without danger.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  Here's one, if an injury has been done, if an injury has to be done to a man, it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. That's pretty ruthless.

• 10:51Jocko Willink?

  Here's another one, hence it comes about that all armed prophets have been victorious. And all unarmed prophets have been destroyed.

• 11:03Jocko Willink?

  And one more quick quote as you, you can, you can just Google Machiavellian quotes and you'll find a bunch of great ones. Men rise from one ambition to another. First, they seek to secure themselves against attack. Then they attack others. And that's actually from The Prince, which is his most famous book. And if you think about the process of being a human being, that right there is very accurate and you can really see that with accuracy. If you overlay that on jujitsu, first you seek to secure yourself from attack and then you attack others, right? When you're rolling at first, when you first start, you're just trying to defend, just trying not to get choked.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  And then eventually you can stop from getting choked and you can stop from getting arm locked and just start trying to attack those people and arm lock them. So that's Machiavelli. And if you don't know anything about him, he was an Italian, really a politician and a diplomat. And but on top of that.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  This was during the Renaissance period and and he's an actual Renaissance man. So he was a poet, he was a philosopher, he was a playwright, he was an author of books. Born in fourteen sixty-nine, died in fifteen twenty-seven. From fifteen oh three to fifteen oh six, he was in charge of the Florentine militia. And when he was in charge of that militia, he didn't like mercenaries. Because he realized the weakness of mercenaries is that they they're they're getting paid. That's why they're fighting, they're not fighting from their true belief system. So he raised and recruited a citizen army and they were well respected on the battlefield.

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  And they fought in some pretty good battles and won. But it didn't last forever. Florentine was eventually defeated and dissolved and Machiavelli was accused of conspiracy and tortured. And I, of course, whenever I I go down a lot of rabbit holes, but I went down that torture rabbit hole for a little while yesterday. And they're pretty brutal about it. But he, they they thought he was a conspirator, whatever. He did he even after torture, they couldn't get it out of him. They eventually just exiled him. And that's when he wrote his book, The Prince, which I'm sure we'll cover on here at some point. This is where you hear, this is where the word Machiavellian. Yeah. You know, that's kind of, it usually refers to his book, The Prince.

• 13:29Jocko Willink?

  And and usually that word nowadays is used to describe someone that's kind of scheming and unscrupulous. If like, if you look it up in the dictionary, that's it'll give you a definition along those lines, like someone that's trying to snake and make things happy and happen. But and like I said, I'm sure we'll cover that book at some point, but.

• 13:53Jocko Willink?

  After that, he wrote another book, which is called The Art of War. And it's, it's definitely a really good book. It's, and we will probably parse through the entire thing at some point. But one thing that's good about it is in the end of the book, he, part seven of the book, and there's, yeah, that's the last, the last part of the book. He basically breaks out the most important principles from the book, which makes it pretty easy and straightforward to, uh, to talk into it, to explain them. And, and then you can get the details and like I said, I'm sure we'll get granular at some point on it.

• 14:34Jocko Willink?

  But here's what he says in this book. He's, and it's bear with me a little bit, only because the, the translation is old.

• 14:47Jocko Willink?

  I know that I've told you many things, which by yourself you might've understood and considered. Notwithstanding, I have done it, as today also I have told you, for to be able to show you better meaning thereof, the quality of this army, and also to satisfy those, if there be any, whom have not had the same commodity to understand them as you. Nor me thinks that there are other to tell you than certain general rules, the which you shall have most familiar, which be these. Which is his way of saying, listen, I wrote a lot of stuff. I'm glad you understood it, or at least you say you did. But just in case some other people can't understand it,

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to break it down for you very simply in these general rules. And, and like I said, the translation, the translation that, that I read of this book is called The Tutor Translations. By, and it's translated by a guy named Peter Whitehorn in 1560. So we're talking like somewhat archaic language and it's a little bit tricky, you know, to get through. But I'll talk through them and we'll get it into an understandable format.

• 15:57Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 15:59Jocko Willink?

  There we go. So, like I said, he says, hey, look, I wrote a lot of stuff. Here's the general rules that you should be most familiar with. Here we go. Number one, the same that helpeth the enemy hurteth thee. And the same that helpeth thee hurteth the enemy. That one's pretty straightforward, right? What benefits the enemy harms you and what benefits you harms the enemy. Straightforward. I think, you know, that's one of those common

• 16:32Jocko Willink?

  principles that across the ages, everyone says, and the reason they say that is because people forget it. People forget that if, if, if we're, if we can hurt the enemy in any way, it's helping us. And anything we do that benefits us is going to hurt the enemy. Yeah. So sometimes we forget that. That's why many of these various canons of principles on war remind us of that. Cause it's an important fact.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  Number two, he that shall be in war most vigilant to observe the devices of the enemy and shall take most pain to exercise his army shall inure least perils and may hope most of victory.

• 17:23Jocko Willink?

  So what does that mean? That means pay attention. That means be vigilant in observing the methods and plans of the enemy when you're in war. Number one, pay attention to who you're fighting against. Understand who they are.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  Andy Burke.

• 17:44Jocko Willink?

  He was going to do an EBI, I think it was an EBI match. You know who he was going against? Yeah. Craig Jones. Yeah. You know anything about Craig Jones? I don't know a lot about. Craig Jones is savage. Andy, you know, he's, he's awesome, but we know we're up, we're training, we're training hard.

• 18:06Jocko Willink?

  He goes and competes against him and loses fast. Yeah. Why did he lose? He lost because, well, number one, because Craig Jones is awesome. And you know what Andy's real good at? He was good at all of jujitsu, but he's got real good foot locks, got real good heel hooks. He likes to play that game. You know, it's training with me, training with Dean Lisch. Yup. And so he's rolling in, didn't know much about Craig Jones. In fact, he didn't know anything about Craig Jones. Oh dang. He just said, oh yeah, he's good, whatever. Yeah. Not, not, not in a disrespectful way. Right. But you ever heard somebody say, um, like when they say, hey, what, what, or what do you think about your opponent's left hook or whatever? Right. Or they say, what do you think about your opponent's ground and pound? And they say, I'm not worried about my opponent.

• 18:51Jocko Willink?

  It's what I'm gonna do. It's not what they're gonna do. You know what I mean? And I don't mean that in a bad way. I'm not trying to say Andy was cocky. Right. But Andy's thing was like, look, you know, I do jujitsu. Yeah, that was his approach. Yeah, like I do jujitsu and hey, and also there's a little bit of like, hey, well, you might go against this guy, but he might get hurt. You might have this or whatever. You know what I mean? So. Right, right. And it was a tournament as well. So you can't really get focused on one guy. You're gonna be fighting three or four guys in one night. You just gotta get your jujitsu game up. Yeah. So Andy rolls in and he, he went right into Craig Jones's game in seconds. And, and the other thing was Andy's super relaxed. Like, I mean, he's, he's relaxed anyways. So he's like, oh, okay. This is, you know, we're just gonna do some jujitsu and, and it'll escalate over time.

• 19:36Jocko Willink?

  And eventually, you know, something will, you know, we'll get to that point and whatever. And he goes in and boom. And goes right into like one of Craig Jane, Craig Jones is like really good moves. Just goes right into it. Yeah. For him. And, you know, I was bummed and obviously Andy's bummed, but didn't do any, you know, we, me, I should have been like, hey, man, let's look at your opponents. Let's check out their game. Cause if, if you just know, you know how it is, if you're aware of someone's game, you can definitely mitigate it. You can't defeat him. I'm not saying he could defeat Craig Jones, but he would have been, he wouldn't have fallen into that in a matter of seconds. He would have been, oh, this is his move there. I need, I know what to do to at least mitigate the first attack, the second attack, right?

• 20:23Jocko Willink?

  If you don't do that, you're gonna, you're gonna have problems. And, and Andy got, and then he came back and we, and he's like, he's like, yeah, oh, that guy's good. So props to my boy Craig Jones. You beat my, my boy. Uh, hopefully you guys will meet again one day and you're gonna, he'll get another go and he'll know your game a little bit better. But bottom line is, study your opponents. Study your opponents. Now, can you go too far with that? Yeah, you can. Cause some people think, oh, I was, that happens sometimes when the UFC, someone will miss weight or they'll get hurt and they'll throw a new opponent mad. I wasn't ready for that guy. I had been training for a striker. Now you're putting me up against a grappler or whatever. So, you know, uh, Sarge, this is pretty cool. Sarge, who was a really, who was

• 21:08Jocko Willink?

  and is a really good wrestler. He's also jiu jitsu now, but he was, he said when he would train for wrestling, you know, cause he was a high school wrestler at Poway, which if you know anything about wrestling in California, or actually in America, you know, Poway High School has a like real dominant wrestling program. And he was a wrestler there, as was his brother. But he said when he would train, he would, he would picture someone with no face.

• 21:37Jocko Willink?

  And it's because, you know, when you're in the high school wrestling scene out here in California, you know, the people that you're going to come up against, right? In a tournament, you're going to come up against these six guys. And you know that two of them are good or whatever. But he'd just say, nope. And then when he would look at him, he's like, when I would look at him before a match, I wouldn't even, I'd just see like a blur, just fog in their face. And then he said, once he would knew he was gonna go against that guy, then he'd look at him and calculate their face and be like, I'm gonna kill this guy. But that's why, what, what, his point in that was, he didn't want to get, uh, like his mind offset by, oh, it's not who I expected it to be. Right, right.

• 22:19Jocko Willink?

  So he wouldn't have any expectation on who it was gonna be. He was just gonna get in the murder mode. And then when he, when he finally realized that they're walking out on the map, but then, then he'd look at their face and go, okay, this is the guy I'm going against and I'm gonna kill him. Which for Sarge, you know, that means he's the actually. So, observe the methods and plans of your enemy. Absolutely.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  Next part of is you, you have to endure much hardship and training. Of course you got to train hard. So observe your enemy, know what they're doing, and then train really, really hard and you're going to have a greater chance for victory, of course. Common sense. Next one, number three.

• 23:03Jocko Willink?

  Never conduct thy men to fight the field if first thou has not confirmed their minds and knowest them to be without fear and to be in good order. For thou, for thou oughtest never to enterprise any dangerous thing with thy soldiers, but when thou seest that thy hope to overcome.

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  So again, we're dealing with some middle Englisher, I think you English linguists people can get at me if I'm wrong, but we're pretty close to middle English. Maybe it's a little late middle English, but we're in the ballpark. So what is he talking about there? Never lead your soldiers into an engagement unless you are assured of their courage.

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  And then he actually says unless you know them to be without fear, which is a stretch in my mind because you're going to have people that are going to be afraid. In fact, you can, you're gonna, people are gonna be afraid when they're going into combat. Ninety something percent, a high percentage of people are going to have some level of fear. But you do need to make sure that they're going to be able to overcome that fear. So if you've got people that are shaken in their shoes and they feel, you know, you think they're going to, they're not, they've not been tested at all. Well, then that, that could be a real problem. And then the question becomes, okay, well, how do you test if someone's going to be afraid or not? What do you think they do in the military?

• 24:30Jocko Willink?

  With people, what do they do?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  What to make them not scared or to test their fear?

• 24:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. How do you test their fear?

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Put them in scary situations.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  They put them in scary situations in training. Make them rappel off the high tower. Make them send airborne school. Hey airborne school? I would say, you know, of course there's, there's some level of some things that you need to learn in airborne school, but you're basically, I mean, you can literally throw a sack of potatoes out of an airplane with a parachute on it and it's going to land up pretty much. Okay. Most of the time. And that's what you do. When you go to the school, you learn the proper. Exit procedures. When I went to airborne school, it's like, hey, here's the exit procedures. Here's how you land. You're floating down. You don't have much control over your parachute. So there's not a lot to learn technically. It's not like a major skill set. I mean, it's a, let me put it this way. It's a three week school, right?

• 25:23Jocko Willink?

  It's not like, it's not, it's not a long intensive school about learning how to pack parachutes or even how to maneuver yourself through the air. Cause there's only so much you can do. So what is it that's important about airborne school? What's important about airborne school is you're going to overcome the fear of jumping out of a damn airplane. That's important. That's why in airborne, you go, go talk to the 82nd airborne division or the 101st airborne division. Those guys are awesome. And they have that little thing that they've all done. That has put them, they've been screened out a little bit because some people are going to be afraid. So yes, that's what you do. You make people do hard scary things. I mean, in the SEAL teams, it's the same thing. What do they do? You're going to learn how to parachute, then you're going to parachute at night. Then you're going to parachute at night into the water.

• 26:09Jocko Willink?

  Then you're going to jump out of a helicopter at night at, you know, 20 feet into the darkness and with a boat. And you're going to rig that thing up and you're going to dive at night and you're going to swim at night in the open ocean. Like you're always just going to go, that scares some people. For some reason, it's never really scared me. I have no fear of sharks.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  Let me rephrase that. I have no fear that a shark is randomly going to bite me. Like if I was in the water and there were sharks, I'd be scared.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:37Jocko Willink?

  And I know that there are sharks in the water. So that you guys should be scared, but I don't know. I feel lucky.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:42Jocko Willink?

  I feel like sharks don't really want to eat me very much. They'd rather eat like someone like you.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Well, I guess if you're on a surfboard, I guess that increases the chances from what I understand.

• 26:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause you look like a seal. Sure. Like a, like a sea animal seal. So that's what you do. You put people in situations where they're going to be afraid. You know, and this is something that I think.

• 27:05Jocko Willink?

  Everyone should do, if you have a job that's going to cause stress, you want to put people in stressful situations. So that's how you test that fear. And again, you're not going to be able to remove the fear from people. What you want to figure out is can they overcome the fear? That's what you want to figure out. What else do you say? Know that they're organized, ne- never make an attempt unless you, unless you see they hope for victory. So you gotta convince, if you're telling your guys like, hey, we're probably gonna lose.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  You don't say that, you say, look, it's gonna be hard, but there's a chance we can take this, you know what I mean?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:41Jocko Willink?

  You gotta get them in that attitude, not the attitude of like, oh, we're just gonna lose, we're just going out here for no reason.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:47Jocko Willink?

  Don't let that happen.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:49Jocko Willink?

  Number four.

• 27:53Jocko Willink?

  It is better to conquer the enemy with famine than with iron.

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  In the victory of which fortune may do more than valiantness.

• 28:04Jocko Willink?

  That one's pretty self-explanatory. It's better to defeat the enemy by hunger than steel. You know, it's better to let them starve than have to go and fight them. And then he says, in such a victory, the fortune, like your luck counts more than valiantness, which is cool, understandable. This is one of those things where you've heard me say before, the best victories are the victories where the person doesn't even know that you're fighting them. That's the best victory. And then if you can, if you can maintain your ego after you win and you don't gloat, then they never even, they didn't even register it.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:40Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 28:41Speaker 01

  They didn't know they were in a fight.

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  They didn't even know they were in a fight, that's what you want. This is very similar, but, but this, this part I'll throw a little back at it. In such fortune, victory counts more than valiantness.

• 28:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good fortune's gonna help, but guess what? We're gonna make our own luck.

• 28:59Jocko Willink?

  Right? We're gonna make our own luck, that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna, and we're gonna make bad luck for the enemy. We're gonna dry up rivers, we're gonna dam rivers so they can't grow food. That's what we're gonna do. So we're gonna cut off supply chains. That's what we're gonna do. We're gonna make, we're gonna make fortune favor us.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:21Jocko Willink?

  Number five. No purpose is better than that which is hidden from the enemy until you have executed it. Boom.

• 29:32Jocko Willink?

  Pretty straightforward. No plan is better than that, which you have concealed from the enemy until the time you execute it.

• 29:39Jocko Willink?

  No doubt.

• 29:42Jocko Willink?

  True in life, true in business, true in jujitsu.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  That's what just essentially the element of surprise.

• 29:49Jocko Willink?

  Element of surprise. If you, if you, if your enemy doesn't know what you're gonna do.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  And then you're done and they go, oh, that was a nice arm lock.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:56Jocko Willink?

  Or wow, you really took over that market share and I didn't see it coming.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. If you don't see it coming, that's really it, right? They see it coming from a mile away. It's like, oh.

• 30:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You can still do that sometimes. Dean does that.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we, yeah, we talked about that, but he does different things though, like.

• 30:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  He'll like.

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  Many, many steps.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'll tie up your defenses while it's on, when you, when you see the incoming. He ties up all your defenses like as it gets close.

• 30:26Jocko Willink?

  Number six, to know in the war, how to understand occasion and to take it helpeth more than any other thing. To know in war, how to understand occasion and take it helpeth more than any other thing. What does that mean? That means you, one of the best skills you can have is knowing how to recognize a good opportunity in war or in life and take advantage of that opportunity. That is more beneficial than anything else. And you know what? The biggest and most blatant example where you see this? Well, your kids aren't old enough, but with kids, just kids, kids have so much opportunity in life.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:11Jocko Willink?

  And they just don't take advantage of it like they should.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:14Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I could see how that could be for sure, but I think that's because they have hard time. Connecting now and then the future, you know, I guess that's the thing.

• 31:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's no doubt that they have, there's no doubt that they have that. Athletes.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:31Jocko Willink?

  Real good athletes, same thing. They have all this potential.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:36Jocko Willink?

  Anytime someone, well, not anytime, oftentimes, somebody that are, some people that are given a gift.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:43Jocko Willink?

  It's just given to them.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:44Jocko Willink?

  They don't have to work for it.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 31:46Jocko Willink?

  They don't want to take advantage of it. They don't see the opportunity. They don't take advantage of the opportunity.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:50Jocko Willink?

  Whatever that skill set is.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Almost like, um, you know, when you give a kid a gift versus, or money versus if they earn it.

• 31:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  I think you covered that on Way of the Warrior Kid.

• 32:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's way covered on Way of the Warrior Kid.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when you earn it, it's like you know the hard work, sort of it takes and you kind of appreciate it and then whatever comes out of that. But yeah, if it's given to you, you just, you run the risk of squandering it for sure. Especially when the going kind of gets rough, you know?

• 32:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No doubt.

• 32:23Jocko Willink?

  Next.

• 32:25Jocko Willink?

  Nature breedeth few strong men. The industry and the exercise maketh many.

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  What does that mean? That means, you know, nature makes very few strong, brave men.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  But hard work and training makes many. Boom.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Gotta work for it.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You want people to be brave. You want people to be, uh, have courage. Make them strong. Make them work hard.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:59Jocko Willink?

  That will absolutely increase their bravery. Remember that question we got asked a while ago about how do I make my unit? Guys in the military, military unit, how do I make them proud? How do I increase their level of pride? Train hard.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  They will get physically stronger. They will get mentally stronger and from that, they will start to take pride in themselves. And pride in themselves as a unit.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 33:24Jocko Willink?

  Eight.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  Discipline may do more in war than fury.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Figured you'd like that one.

• 33:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I kinda like that one. Discipline counts more than fury in war. Discipline counts more than fury in life.

• 33:46Jocko Willink?

  I'm not discounting emotions. I'm not doing that because you can't. Because sometimes, man, people's emotions, they get, they will carry them through a really tough time period. That's why in Discipline Equals Freedom, in the field manual, I talk about how you gotta use both. You gotta use logic and you gotta use emotions. And when sometimes, when emotionally it doesn't make any sense, or you're gonna break emotionally, you gotta go with the logic of the situation, like I gotta drive through this and vice versa. Sometimes the logic's like, this makes no sense whatsoever. You gotta turn to the emotional side.

• 34:17Jocko Willink?

  But, discipline, he says, may do more. And he's right. It's not a hundred percent. It's like, discipline, because if you have people that are just disciplined, but they have no heart, they have no emotion, how good are they? They're not that good. They're not, they're not as good as the person that has both. They're not as good as a person that has discipline and a little bit of fury. They can kinda get crazy when they need to. But, in MMA, you see this. You'll see someone when they're young, and they'll lose some fights because they'll, they'll sit someone down, or whatever, and then they'll just go crazy trying to catch them, they'll get caught in a triangle.

• 34:52Jocko Willink?

  You have to maintain your discipline. Even during the, the actual battle, you have to maintain your discipline. You can't let the fury get a hold of you.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, too much. Discipline, fury.

• 35:04Jocko Willink?

  Discipline, fury, yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  You know, you watched the Cyborg fight, right? The recent one, Amanda Nunes?

• 35:10Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  So, this is what it seemed like, it was fast, but this is what it looked like. Where Cyborg landed like a solid one, and Amanda Nunes, as a response, unleashed fury, like some legit fury fury. But, it was disciplined fury, because when she started landing hard ones, she didn't like, overcommit, it was like, really balanced, you know?

• 35:33Jocko Willink?

  She looked great.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  But there was some, there was a lot of fury though.

• 35:35Jocko Willink?

  Fury.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Like, it wasn't like, all just boom, calculated, like punches, it was, there was fury, but...

• 35:42Jocko Willink?

  And Tim Kennedy, someone's like, uh, the UFC tweeted out like...

• 35:48Jocko Willink?

  She's throwing haymakers and Tim Kennedy's like, those aren't haymakers because every single one of them hit.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  They were full punches.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:56Jocko Willink?

  From Amanda that were nailing Cyborg right in the head.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And most of the time.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  Like five times in a row. You don't, you don't normally see five punches land.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:08Jocko Willink?

  Especially not punches that are thrown with that much fury.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. You can kind of tell when like you see like their, their feet when they're, you know, throwing punches. Like you could, there's like a huge forward lean if they're haymakers. There's like these huge forward leans and they're usually pressing forward like fully. But when they're like disciplined, there's like that, you see, you can see the balance, like they'll back up just a little bit, you know? Yeah, it's good.

• 36:35Jocko Willink?

  So good. Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  So. That's crazy.

• 36:37Jocko Willink?

  Discipline may do more than fury. So you know what? Make sure you have some discipline in your life. All right. Next one, number nine. When any depart from the enemy's side for to come to serve thee. When they be faithful, they shall be unto thee always great gains. For that power of the adversaries are more diminished with the loss of them that run away than those, than those that be slain. Although that the name of a fugitive be to new friends suspected and old, to odious, to old odious. So what is he's talking about traitors there. That's what he's talking about. So when you say when any depart from the enemy's side to come serve you.

• 37:22Jocko Willink?

  So when, when people leave the enemy and they come to serve with you, they're going to be more loyal. And they're a great, they're a great acquisition. And actually he's saying that people that leave the enemy and come to your side are more powerful for you than people that you've killed.

• 37:46Jocko Willink?

  And they're they have more value. The when they come aboard your team, they're going to be suspected, you know, the the old the your team is going to look at him with like a cautious eye. And the team that they left are going to hate them.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:03Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna hate them. That was weird when Solzhenitsyn was saying that when they would capture the Russian turncoat soldiers that were now fighting for the Nazis. As soon as they spoke any Russian, they'd kill them. That was that was a pretty scary thought. So this is very accurate from that perspective.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:23Jocko Willink?

  Like if you're a traitor, we're not even going to give you a chance. We're just going to kill you.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Wait, so who wait, who so the Russians, the Russians didn't kill them.

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  No, so there was a whole group of Russian soldiers.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:39Jocko Willink?

  That turned against Stalin and turned against Russia and started fighting for the Nazis.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  And so when the Russians would capture those, what they considered to be traitors, as soon as they heard a soldier speaking Russian, they'd kill them.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  The Nazis, you mean?

• 38:57Jocko Willink?

  They were they were Russian soldiers fighting for the Nazis. Was it Vasily, that was the guy's name. So there was a German or sorry, a Russian general that was the leader of that whole group. The Vasily Army, I think was the name.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  And so

• 39:15Jocko Willink?

  when the Russian Stalin's Russian actual red soldiers would capture these traitors that were fighting against them now.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:24Jocko Willink?

  They would if they heard him speaking Russian, they'd kill him.

• 39:28Jocko Willink?

  So this is from that perspective, it's accurate.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder why they're more valuable, you think, because what because or what or loyal? You said loyal, right, too?

• 39:40Jocko Willink?

  Well, the the the Russian soldiers that were now fighting for the Nazis, they would fight to the death because they knew that they were dead anyways.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:47Jocko Willink?

  They got captured.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, like if they got, yeah.

• 39:49Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, they were they would fight even harder.

• 39:53Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the thing that I'm not sure about this is, well, I, I guess I agree with it. I do agree with it. When someone's a traitor, you're suspect of them, right?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, you're just, you're just like, hey, if you get, if you're a cheater, you're a traitor, I'm suspect of you. So it's going to take a little time for me to actually trust that you really came to my side.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I guess like when you think about, just like how you said, you know, they know they're dead anyway, kind of thing. Where it's like, okay, let's say me and you were enemies, whatever. And one of my guys goes to you and says, hey, I give up. I'll, I'll, I'll help you. I give up. You're like, okay, he gives up. I get it. And let's see what he has to offer, kind of thing.

• 40:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but I'm suspect.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you're suspect, but let's say. So a guy in your team used to be on my team. And I know that I'm pissed at that guy.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  And then he gives up now to me, to my guys, like my guys see him or whatever. And he's like, hey, I give up. I'll help you. Oh, no, no, no, you don't give up. You're dead.

• 40:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  So it's like that, like how you say, they know they're dead anyway.

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  What the Russians did to the Vosel soldiers.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you.

• 40:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you traded? Okay, cool. You're dead.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  And that makes sense, right? So that's probably why they have to be loyal, because it's either loyalty or death. You know, they can't give up anymore. If I am not a traitor, I can give up and get be POW, be whatever. I can, I can give up. I have that option. Traitor who already made the trade, he doesn't have that option. That's why he's loyal. He has to be loyal.

• 41:17Jocko Willink?

  At a minimum, he's going to fight to the death.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:20Jocko Willink?

  And it's interesting too, that traders are, you know, in the business world, because in the business world. You know, there's, everyone's always recruiting. There's limited number of the human capital limits in, in the world. And we can only get so many people that can do this job. And if you have skills in that job, you're getting recruited all the time. And so that's that hurts when they leave. And that's why and and just to kind of close the loop on this, when they leave, almost all the time, the reason, the reason that they're leaving is because of leadership. Or I should say, lack of leadership inside their organization.

• 42:02Jocko Willink?

  So if you have a, if you have a problem hanging on to people in your organization, it's most likely a leadership problem, not a comp problem, not a midlife crisis problem for the employee. It's a leadership problem. Because good, good people will stay with good leaders. And if there's not good leaders, they're looking for another job. They're looking for another way. They're looking for another opportunity.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 42:29Jocko Willink?

  Leadership, leadership, leadership. Get some.

• 42:35Jocko Willink?

  Number 10.

• 42:38Jocko Willink?

  Better it is in pitching the field to reserve behind the first front aid enough than to make the front bigger to disperse the soldiers.

• 42:53Jocko Willink?

  What that's saying is it's better to keep your reserves just behind, to keep some reserves just behind the front lines, rather than spread out your reserves and take on a bigger front, try and hold more area. It's better to, you know, this is prioritize next, right? Keep your, keep your focus of effort, even with your reserves. Keep focus of effort, keep them consolidated so you can utilize them well.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  Next up, number 11.

• 43:24Jocko Willink?

  He is difficultly overcome, which can know his own power and the same of the enemy.

• 43:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay, let's, that was almost like a Yoda type.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  He is difficultly overcome. So what we're saying there is it's hard to overcome someone who knows how to recognize or knows and understands his own power and the power of the enemy. So does that mean know your strengths and weaknesses? That's what it means.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, Sun Tzu says that, right? If there's something about winning the deal.

• 44:00Jocko Willink?

  Definitely.

• 44:02Jocko Willink?

  Number 12, the valiantness of the soldiers availeth more than the multitude. Sometimes the situation helpeth more than the valiantness. Okay, so what we're talking about there is that the bravery of the soldiers is worth more than the number of soldiers you have.

• 44:23Jocko Willink?

  Makes sense. If you have brave courageous soldiers, they can take a lot more and they can do a lot more than people or soldiers that are afraid.

• 44:36Jocko Willink?

  So you want brave soldiers and then it says,

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  the site, what does it say? That sometimes the situation helpeth more than the valiantness. So even that what trumps the courageous and what trumps the bravery is what's the, what's the terrain situation? You know, what's the environment that you're in? What are the rules of the game?

• 44:58Jocko Willink?

  What are the rules of the game that you're playing? Cause if you, if you know the rules, you're going to be in a, a much better situation. The, uh, this happens in jujitsu, right?

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:10Jocko Willink?

  Cause the rules are always a little bit different. There's no unified set of rules in jujitsu.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:14Jocko Willink?

  There's some close, but there's no unified set of rules. And sometimes someone will lose simply because they don't know the rules.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:21Jocko Willink?

  And then once you know the rules, you gotta train to the rules.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:23Jocko Willink?

  Like EBI.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:25Jocko Willink?

  EBI, you have those positions that you start up in. If you're in overtime, you start in spider web, you start on the back, right?

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:31Jocko Willink?

  If you don't, if you don't, if, once you know those rules, then you gotta practice those positions. So you can finish the arm lock. So you can finish from the back or you can escape from either one of those two.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:40Jocko Willink?

  If you don't know that and you don't practice it, cause like, for instance,

• 45:47Jocko Willink?

  I'm pretty good at finishing on arm lock. Pretty good at finishing an arm lock.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 45:55Jocko Willink?

  On the back, I normally transition from the back to another position. So I would, if I was going to an EBI tournament, I'd have to go and focus on what that rule set is and make sure I know how to win from that position.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fully. Yeah, big one is the submission only versus points. So if people like, let's say they spend 10 years competing with points in the tournaments, you know, then they go to submission only with a guy who's only trained in submission only, he's gonna, you know.

• 46:26Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna have an advantage.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, in all these different, yeah, different ways, because certain rules don't apply, some do.

• 46:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the terrain part, man, this is, this is, it took me a while to understand this in my Navy career. How important terrain is. And now it's so obvious, but when you're maneuvering on the battlefield, if you know how to read terrain well, you have a complete advantage over the enemy, complete advantage over the enemy. You should be paying attention to that terrain, studying maps, looking at it. Now they have all these, you can, you can simulate the earth, right? It's a Google Maps, like a high speed where you can get down at eye level and you can walk the terrain and really understand what the visibility is like. That's the kind of, that's, that's, you should, you gotta take advantage of those tools.

• 47:17Jocko Willink?

  You gotta understand the terrain. You gotta understand the terrain that you're going into in the business world. You go, gotta go into a company, understanding what the situation is there. When you get hired into a new company, you wanna know the terrain. You wanna know who's got the clout.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:34Jocko Willink?

  You wanna know who the movers and shakers are. You wanna know what things are off limits and whatever.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, wanna know who's buying. Like, you know, they, you know, people always say, this is a billion dollar industry, right? Like that kind of stuff, like, oh, is, you know, how's the, what's the need for your product? I'm remembering, could I watch Shark Tank? This is what they always ask.

• 47:58Jocko Willink?

  What was the, was this a particular product?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  No, no, everyone, like, pretty much, that's one of the things like they ask or they say. They'll be like, oh, yeah, this is like a million, you know, a million people own pets, you know? And all these pets need this, you know? So you see, see what I'm saying? So they kind of, they got another terrain in that way.

• 48:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  If they don't know how many people have pets, then they don't know how many people gonna buy that shampoo. You know, so you gotta know that one.

• 48:26Jocko Willink?

  Dude, Shark Tank, we, maybe we should just do a leadership show about Shark Tank, what you've learned from Shark Tank.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 48:32Jocko Willink?

  Next up.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  Number thirteen. New and sudden thing make armies afraid. Slow and accustomed things be little regarded of them. Therefore, make thy army practice and to know with small fights a new enemy. Before thou come to fight the field with him.

• 49:00Jocko Willink?

  Middle English coming at you. So what, what is that?

• 49:05Jocko Willink?

  What, basically what we're saying here is, number one, new and surprising things frighten armies.

• 49:12Jocko Willink?

  New and surprising things frighten people.

• 49:16Jocko Willink?

  So, um, opposing to that customary and expected things, they can handle. So what do you do? How do you do? How do you, how do you properly mitigate that? Therefore, you practice and you fight small engagements to get them experienced. Before you go to battle on the big battlefield with them, with the enemy. That's what you do. Train hard, don't dive right in, get them used to the new technology. That, that's what you do.

• 49:51Jocko Willink?

  This is another good one with kids, right? You throw your kid into this scenario that they haven't been into before you give them a little taste of it. Oh yeah, this is, this is exposure therapy once again. I get asked on the Warrior Kid Podcast, I get asked every, like every day I get at least one question from a kid that's I'm afraid of, what do I do? And I, I, I usually wait two or three podcasts before I answer the same question again. Cause it's kids, they gotta get the repetition, they gotta get the reps in. But it's exposure therapy. You're afraid of something? Cool. Do a little bit of it. Then do a little bit more and that's unknowingly what I did in Way of the Warrior Kid one. With him overcoming his fear of the water.

• 50:35Jocko Willink?

  I didn't know that that was a real thing, not until Jordan Peterson's like, this is called exposures therapy. I guess I need to talk like Kermit the Frog to imitate Jordan, but, but he's like, yeah, that's exposure therapy. Oh, okay.

• 50:49Jocko Willink?

  Next. Number 13, I'm going on to number 14. He that with disorder followeth the enemy, after that he is broken, will do no other than to become of a conqueror, a loser.

• 51:10Jocko Willink?

  If you pursue a routed enemy in a disorganized manner, victory will be lost and you'll become a loser. Keep it under control. Allah, Amanda, Nunez, right? She had the victory and you ever seen that, that one real quick clip? And I forget who the fighter is that did it is in UFC. The guy takes a body shot and he keels over like he's about to like go down and the dude comes running in swinging. And the dude that's keeled over like he's hurt, just crack. He wasn't hurt. He was just faking it.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he was hurt. Talk about Scott.

• 51:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, maybe he was hurt, but he wasn't hurt as bad as he.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Right, right. He's functional, apparently.

• 51:51Jocko Willink?

  Apparently he's functional because he knocked the dude out.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the last thing, his nickname is Drago. I know that.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  It's interesting that that stuff doesn't happen more often. It's like trick football plays. Yeah. How come more trick football plays don't happen?

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Because they'd lose their trickery element of it. And sometimes there's a lot of risk involved. There's more risk than like a traditional play a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like, like the rope a dope. Remember that the rope a dope?

• 52:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, like Muhammad Ali?

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You essentially like act like you're kind of hurt or tired or whatever. And then they punch themselves out, then you get them. But yeah, yeah.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta be careful on that kind of stuff.

• 52:31Jocko Willink?

  So when you do have your enemy on the run, don't go after him crazy. Keep it under control.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is a play in football called the reverse, right? And I thought that because you just said, why don't they run?

• 52:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, because you know, I didn't play football.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:51Jocko Willink?

  And when you see the trick plays,

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:53Jocko Willink?

  then you think, well, that's seen to work pretty good. Why don't they do that stuff more often?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, okay. So here's a common trick play, right? They, um, the quarterback does a sweep, right? Do they got to the running back that runs the outside? And then the running back, oh, he stops before he reaches the line of scrimmage. He stops and he throws the football, not to a receiver, but to the quarterback.

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Who ran a route on the other side of the field and because no one's going to cover the quarterback. He's not a receiver, you know?

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  And now he's wide open to pass.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Now he's wide open.

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  What's that called?

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Uh,

• 53:27Speaker 01

  we called it pass back to the quarterback. So if you're like thirty eight sweep pass back to the quarterback.

• 53:31Jocko Willink?

  But I can see where there's risk in that one.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yes, because that's a running back. He's not a quarterback, so he got to nail that throw, which is really hard for a running back typically. But I'd say the, the one that would always work is in Pop Warner anyway. It would always work is the reverse. It's essentially like you do a sweep. Everyone's running this way to block for this running back. Everyone except for the one tight end or the wide receiver, whatever, who's coming this way. And the running back hands it off to him going this way. So he's full speed running this way. So everyone has to change direction to chase him. And usually that side of the field is wide open. It works way better in Pop Warner and younger teams because they don't know, like these, these situations. Like they don't know, they just see everyone running there and they just sort of go, you know, more than a professional. They're gonna be like, wait, I shouldn't just be, you know?

• 54:18Speaker 01

  But that was one I was like, why don't we just always run the reverse? Because every time this is this team that we played against, they'd always run it and it always.

• 54:26Jocko Willink?

  Well, I understand why if you ran it every time, well, then, then the regular reverse or the regular play would become the surprise. But it seems like, it seems like you could keep people guessing a little bit more. Those trick plays always see, I always look at them and go, that was pretty creative and pretty good.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think you see it like, um, kinda like I said, like when you go up in um, like skill, like you go into the pros or whatever trick plays don't work is good. They have to be really advanced trick plays. That's when you.

• 54:56Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever seen like the trick play that like where they like almost walk off the field?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:03Jocko Willink?

  And then they like walk over like there's something wrong with the ball or something like stand up and they'll be like, no, something's wrong and they and then they just start running.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So even that and then those can backfire too. Because they'll be like, if all it takes is one defensive person to know that, hey, that ball is in play right now. So they can just sort of walk over and hit it out of the hand, grab it from whatever they want, because no one's blocking them. You know, no one's like everyone, it's kinda, it's just risky.

• 55:27Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  You get more people doing that, they're gonna be like, oh, they're hit to it and it would never work after a while.

• 55:35Jocko Willink?

  Um, number fifteen. He that prepareth not necessary victuals to live upon is overcome without iron. So, um. Whoever does not prepare food and provisions necessary to live is gonna be overcome without any weapons at all. So what does that mean? Take care of your people, take care, make sure you take care of your logistics. Logistics wins wars. And people need to survive. So do that. Number sixteen. He that trusteth more in horsemen than in footmen, or more in footmen than in horsemen, must accommodate himself with the situation. So. In the ancient times, you had cavalry on horses and you had the infantrymen on feet.

• 56:19Jocko Willink?

  And he's saying if you prefer one over the other.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  Then you have to put yourself in the right situation. Where it's advantageous. So. That, that's why it's good to be well balanced and not really prefer one over the other. But if you do, then put yourself in a situation that's most advantageous to your style or preference of fighting.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  But make sure you learn how to wrestle.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:50Jocko Willink?

  Cause if you don't know how to wrestle, someone else is gonna dictate to you where that fight's gonna go.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:58Jocko Willink?

  Seventeen. When thou write, see if in the day there be coming any spy into the camp, cause every man to go into his lodge.

• 57:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so what we're saying is this is pretty straightforward. Basic headcount, if you want to see if there's a spy in the camp, I would send everyone to their place, you know, get a headcount, no big deal. Eighteen. Change purpose when thou perceives that the enemy hath foreseen it.

• 57:32Jocko Willink?

  What does that mean? If you, if you think the enemy, or if you perceive that the enemy knows what you're doing, then change your plan. That's, that's what that means. Pretty straightforward. Now, where we don't do that, or the reason most of the time we don't do that is because of our ego. We got our plan and we're going to stick to it. Now, this is a total.

• 57:53Jocko Willink?

  This is why leadership is hard.

• 57:56Jocko Willink?

  Because there's a point where your plan, you got your plan, and if you stick to your plan, you can, it's gonna work, right? And then there's a point where you stick in your plan, you're sticking with the plan, and it's gonna fail because it's not working. So as a leader, this is one of the hardest things to do as leaders, to recognize like, you know what? The plan that I came up with, it's not going to be perfect, but it's still going to work and we're going to go with it. Cause to try and change the plan halfway through is really hard to do. Even if you rehearse the contingencies. Now, if you rehearse the contingencies properly, you're probably going to be able to execute your new plan pretty easily. But if you didn't, it's gonna be a problem. So this is one of the hardest things for a leader to do is to pay enough attention and then weigh the risk versus reward.

• 58:40Jocko Willink?

  Because if you're coming up with, if you have your plan and you're executing the plan, and all of a sudden something changes, it's not quite what you thought, and you decide you're going to try and do something completely different. What your changes that you make on the fly are going to cause as much confusion as what the enemy's doing. And it's going to be a real problem. However, like this says, if the enemy sees what you're doing, and now they're reacting to it in a proper way, and your plan is no longer effective, you have to be able to. You have to be able to comprehend that and discern whether you should change or not. And that's one of the hardest things for, uh, hardest decisions for a leader to make as it's happening. What's worse than that is we have a long period of time. When you start talking about strategic plans, this is where ego gets more involved.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause when I have this plan and this is what we're going to do. And I'm just gonna stick with it. And if it's not working, I'm gonna do it harder.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:36Jocko Willink?

  So that's what you wanna watch out for. You know, there's like some of these, um, companies being taken down by online companies, right? You gotta change your game plan.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:48Jocko Willink?

  You know, you gotta adjust. You gotta look at them and say, okay, what are they doing? Where are they going? We know Blockbuster, like I, like I've said this before, Blockbuster could have, could have completely dominated Netflix. But what did they do? No, we're just over here. Hey, people are gonna keep coming to our stores.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's a certain feeling that you get when you come into a store and you get to look at and browse with the movies. It's almost like you get to pick up popcorn. Where are you gonna get popcorn at your house? You know, people are gonna wanna keep coming into these stores. Right? No, actually they're not. They already have popcorn at their house. Amazon delivered it yesterday in an hour, by the way.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. You've got to know your terrain too on that one.

• 1:00:23Jocko Willink?

  And yet they had all the relationships with the movie places. With the, what are those movie companies called? What are the production companies? What's, what's Warner Brothers? What is that?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, production studio.

• 1:00:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they, oh, they had studio. They got the relationships with the studios. They could have been like, hey, we're gonna start selling this stuff online.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Jocko Willink?

  And they would've said, well, that doesn't make any sense, cause the, it's gonna be all jumbled up when it gets downloaded. Yeah, but it's gonna get better. We're just playing the long game.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's weird that.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  Instead, they were thinking, you know, it's too hard to download a movie on the internet. It's gonna be jumbled up. There's gonna be buffering. No one even knew what, did Netflix invent buffering?

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  No, buffering is just the internet situation. Yeah, when it has to catch up.

• 1:01:05Jocko Willink?

  But do you remember five years ago? There was buffering on all kinds of stuff.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:10Jocko Willink?

  Now there's hardly any buffering.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Barely any buffering.

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  I bet my littlest daughter doesn't even know what buffering is. She's in there just streaming.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  I'm sure she knows what it is, but she has never witnessed it. Yeah. Well, then again, you know, you get bad service somewhere.

• 1:01:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Get some buffering. They weren't wrong. They, I mean, they were wrong blockbuster. But they just, the whole idea of like, people like coming into blockbuster and browsing the movies and buying. The thing is, that's true. Like, we did like doing that.

• 1:01:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  But it's because we didn't have a better option, you know? Like when you go, like even going to the store, sometimes it's kind of cool and fun, you know, sometimes. But most of the time at the end of the day, I'd rather press a button than go to the store.

• 1:01:50Jocko Willink?

  I'd rather press a button too.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Every single time.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And there's also that thing where you, you're, it's a positive feedback loop, right? It's an echo chamber. I like going to, you know, two of those people in the, in the C suite of blockbuster. Like, you know, my wife loves going down and picking out a new movie with the kids. They love doing that, you know? And then someone's like, yeah, you know, my kids love that too. So, and my teenage daughter likes doing it too with her friends. And like you said, that's because there's no other option.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Your teenage daughter would be rather be in a room, alone in a room clicking on the next Netflix movie.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Yep. Popcorn, popcorn that got delivered earlier.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So if you, if you are on a strategy and it's not working, you got to recognize that you need to change it. Note to self, everyone in a leadership position, pay attention to that one. Next up, number 20. Soldiers, when they abide at home, are maintained with fear and punishment after when they are led to the war with hope and with reward.

• 1:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Now, what's it saying is when soldiers are confined to their quarters, they're kept there by fear and punishment when they're led to war. They're led by hope and reward. You know, fear for me is just not a good tool for a leader to use, period. I'm not saying you never, this is, I'm not saying you should never use it, right? There should be some element, a little element of fear, right? Just a little bit of element of fear.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:03:16Jocko Willink?

  Right? Let me ask you this. Do your kids have any fear of you at all? Cause you seem real nice.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, they do. Yeah.

• 1:03:23Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's at least enough, a healthy. Element.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I would say, yeah, healthy, but I don't know. I don't really know what the standard of healthy fear levels are, but yeah.

• 1:03:34Jocko Willink?

  We agree that there is a healthy level of fear.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  I agree with that, yes.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Even with your kids.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  Your kids shouldn't just think that that there's gonna be no repercussions for anything that they do.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Jocko Willink?

  Your troops should also feel a healthy level of fear.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  And it's hard to even use that word because the word is so negative.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Jocko Willink?

  But there should at least be a level of like, you know what?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  We want to do that.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's a line with Jaco and you don't want to cross it.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  There's a line with dad, Echo. He seems real nice and all cruisy.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think I am a little bit too cruisy, though, for sure.

• 1:04:14Jocko Willink?

  So sometimes you do have to make sure people understand that if they cross the line, there's gonna be a problem. And my kids definitely understand if they cross the line, there's gonna be a problem.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:04:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a real problem.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  That doesn't surprise me.

• 1:04:29Jocko Willink?

  And it keeps them in check.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Jocko Willink?

  Next up, twenty, and I'm pretty lenient. I'm pretty cruisy.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  You're actually surprisingly cruisy and lenient.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  Everyone thinks I want to be the a great Santini. You've probably never seen that movie. Yeah. But you don't want to raise your kids like that.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  What, what's the great Santini?

• 1:04:49Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to be all militant and impose discipline on your kids and make them number one, reliant on your discipline. Instead of their discipline. I don't want to.

• 1:05:01Jocko Willink?

  You don't want anyone like that. You don't want your team to be like that where they're reliant on you barking at them to tell them what to do. You don't want that. Then they can't function for themselves. You don't want your kids to be that way either. You want your kids to think, you know what? I need to make a good decision. I could slack off or I could do what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna do what I'm supposed to do because I know it's gonna be beneficial in the end. As opposed to I'm gonna do what I'm supposed to do only because I'm afraid that my dad's gonna yell at me or ground me or take away my computer or smash one of my favorite toys.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't you. I mean, the the assumption, I think, anyway, would be that you're like more drill sergeant.

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm not even drill sergeant. I'm never.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  I know. But I think it's like when you look at you, or maybe if you just said like one or two sound bites and you're like, oh, he's.

• 1:05:46Jocko Willink?

  There's recordings, many recordings of when I used to debrief SEAL platoons.

• 1:05:55Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna try and get some of those.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  And what is it?

• 1:05:57Jocko Willink?

  They're just, well, it's it's definitely, I could see it's not drill sergeant E. But it's definitely direct and can be pretty harsh from time to time. So like, that's what I understand people would probably, but but that was usually, it would only be that way. If somebody really did something egregious, because most of the time it'd be like, hey, what do you think? What do you? What were you thinking about over here? Debrief me on that. You know what I mean? So.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's all contextual, too. Like, you know, I guess it's kind of natural. Like, let's say I heard that, right? I didn't really know you or nothing, and I heard that and be like, okay, he's real direct and real, real strict and like all this stuff. So it's just natural to be like, oh, because he's that kind of guy, you know? Rather than kind of the understand the nuance, like, okay, he's talking to these people at this time. Yeah. And then versus, but then again, then that opens it up. Who knows then how you'd be? So you just, your mind just sort of wants to just attach.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  What they have witnessed, you know, to everything.

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, even drill instructors aren't like drill instructors. I mean, it's a it's a training methodology.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:57Jocko Willink?

  There's a purpose for them to act that way.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  See, and you know that because you've been around.

• 1:07:02Jocko Willink?

  Because that type of leader isn't, doesn't function. That type of leader is not good. That type of person isn't going to function within a team. So you can't, you just can't be that way.

• 1:07:18Jocko Willink?

  Is there a level of intensity? Sure. Do I bring a level of intensity sometimes? Yes, absolutely.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  But that's not the way to go through life, imposing discipline and fear into your team. You'll end up with either one of two things, a broken team that relies on you for their discipline. Or a team that mutinies against you and comes up and kills you. Frags you in the, as they did in the NOM.

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  Next, number 21. Good captains come never to fight the field, except necessity constrain them and occasion call them.

• 1:08:03Jocko Willink?

  So what that's saying is good, you know, good captains, good leaders never enter into the engagement unless it's completely necessary. That's, that's a great point. And this is one of those things where if you're in a leadership position, you shouldn't be doing the, you shouldn't be shooting your gun at the enemy. You should be observing your team, shooting the gun and looking to see where the enemy is maneuvering to.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Jocko Willink?

  This is a, this is about detachment right here. Don't get in the mix. Stay detached. Decentralize command. Let the team maneuver. Let them understand what the commander's intent is and let them maneuver towards victory. You stay back a little bit and monitor.

• 1:08:45Jocko Willink?

  Go diving in there.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Does that apply to, because you're the one who kind of said this example to me one time. I forget if it was on here or not, but you're like, um, it was about when your kids tying their shoes, you know? Let's say like, I don't know, you're late for school or we're running late or whatever. And they're having a hard time tying the shoes. You're like, let them tie the shoes. Don't jump in and be like, oh, do it.

• 1:09:07Jocko Willink?

  I did say that and I've said it a bunch of times. That's a real simple example. That's a little bit more towards the last question or towards the last discussion that we just got into. I mean, if you let your, if you, if you tie your shoes for your kids all the time, they don't learn how to tie them. Yeah. And furthermore, you literally are taking away their opportunity to learn some fine motor skills at that moment. This is not the same as that. This is, this is on a broader perspective, your team is doing, so your team is in a firefight. And you pick up your gun, you go on the front line and you start shooting at the enemy. Well, now who's leading?

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:38Jocko Willink?

  Now who's looking around?

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Jocko Willink?

  This is the same as, you know, you're in a business situation and your team is trying to come up with a plan and they're arguing amongst themselves and you jump in there and start arguing too. Now you don't have a good perception of, you should be just standing back, listening to the various arguments take place. And I'm not talking about arguments where people are yelling and screaming. I'm talking about a, a discussion where they're arguing different possible courses of action. If you dive right into those and you start becoming involved at point blank range, you lose all your perspective. So instead you step back, you don't, you don't. You don't go into the field.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Jocko Willink?

  You don't dive into the argument. You step back and you watch the fight unfold. And then as the fight unfolds, you see the best options because you're at altitude and you're not at point blank range, one foot from the enemy fire.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Jocko Willink?

  This is just detached, decentralized command. Next up. Twenty-two.

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  Cause that enemies, cause that the enemies know not how thou right order thy army to fight. And in whatsoever manner that thou ordainst it. Make that the first band be received of the second and the third.

• 1:10:59Jocko Willink?

  Middle English gets some. What are we talking about here? Well, cause your enemies know not. So that means you don't want your enemies to understand how you're gonna organize your, your army to fight. That's what this is. You, you wanna confuse your enemy. You don't want them to know exactly what you're gonna do. And then the second part. Make it, make that the first band may be received to the second and third. I'm pretty sure, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I'm pretty sure that that's just talking about mutually supporting positions. So you wanna set your team up so that they can support each other.

• 1:11:32Jocko Willink?

  So confuse the enemy, don't give up the plan and set your teams up so they can help each other. Once your team, once a team is alone and unsupportable, they're alone. Try not to let that happen.

• 1:11:45Jocko Willink?

  Twenty-three. In the fight, never occupy a battle to any other thing than to the same for which thou hast appointed it if thou wilt make no disorder.

• 1:12:03Jocko Willink?

  It's a good day. It's, it's modern English appreciation day.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  What makes it hard too is they spell even words that you know, they spell them all different.

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  And just so you know, you're looking at this, I actually tightened up some of the spelling and made some of the spelling more modern. Because I just couldn't, it was harder to track, man.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Jocko Willink?

  It's harder to track. Again, this, this thing was interpreted from Italian in fifteen sixty. By George, was it George Whitehead was getting after the translation.

• 1:12:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so um it just it's it's interesting and this is the same thing you know I said that when we did Shakespeare need to do more Shakespeare but people think oh I should just understand Shakespeare you're not gonna understand Shakespeare it's almost a different language so you need to actually break it down like we're doing with these various statements

• 1:12:54Jocko Willink?

  so what this one is saying is

• 1:12:59Jocko Willink?

  don't use a a company don't use a don't use a unit for a purpose other than what you've assigned it unless you want to cause disorder unless you want to cause chaos so you got your team they're assigned to do this let them do that now obviously that can be problematic so we need to mitigate that because there's times when team is gonna have to do something that you don't want it to do and so I'll give you a little example when you're doing an assault on a target you have two elements the base element and the maneuver element the base element is gonna stay in position they're gonna sneak up on the target

• 1:13:44Jocko Willink?

  and then the maneuver elements gonna sneak over to the flank and then the base elements gonna start firing massive firepower at the target and then the maneuver element after a little bit will stand up and start to go through the target they shift fire off the target and then you clear the target so when I was a young kid in the tubes parking garage so we would we would you know like let's do this yeah so we're gonna hit this target we're gonna do a fire and maneuver on this target base and maneuver so what we would do is say okay let's take all of our heavy machine guns and put them in the base element and then the guys with the little pea shooters the little little m16 pea shooters

• 1:14:29Jocko Willink?

  all those guys will be on the assault because they're light and they'll be able to maneuver really quickly through the get to the target and then go through the target makes perfect sense And I remember the first time I presented this type of plan to one of the old guys from NOM. He's like, no, don't do that. Why not, Master Chief? This way, we have more firepower in our base and our maneuver guys can maneuver more quickly. Here's the problem. When that maneuver element is going towards the target, what happens if they get compromised and contacted and now they're they're the ones that have to lay down their base. They can't get up and move because they're being shot at. So guess who has to move? The base element has to move. And they can't move very well if they're only getting

• 1:15:14Jocko Willink?

  cover fire from little pea shooters. So you keep your integrity of your squads and you utilize them that way. And it's like, oh. So what you want to do in this situation is you want to make sure that your elements can are capable of doing each other's jobs. Maybe not to the fullest extent, but they at least need to be somewhat capable. So maybe you put one machine gun in the expected, one extra machine gun in the expected base element. And now you only have a couple of machine guns in the maneuver element, but you got them if you need them. So

• 1:15:46Jocko Willink?

  I don't a hundred percent agree with that. That being said, you definitely want to let people do the job that they were assigned to do. Makes sense, right? You trained them, you've assigned it. Let's, let's try and keep the plan as it's supposed to be.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Jocko Willink?

  To the best of our ability, but we're thinking, we're not black and white here.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:08Jocko Willink?

  Leadership is not easy.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  You know, another thing is when you establish your teams, you try and use those teams for everything, if you can.

• 1:16:21Jocko Willink?

  And again, this is a dichotomy because as much as you want to keep your teams together, you also have to train them to be split up and broken up and combined and mismatched all together. And I would always do this with all my fire teams. So the fire teams would stick together as much as humanly possible, but guess what? I would also train them that if they were all scrambled up, someone would step up, take lead, and that'd be a new fire team. And we'd start making stuff happen.

• 1:16:47Jocko Willink?

  Next up, 24. The Sodin accidents with difficulty are remedied. Those that are thought upon with faculty.

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  I had to look up Sodin. Cause I couldn't even get a clue on what that one was, but it's some sort of leader or a ruler. It's actually a ruler.

• 1:17:14Jocko Willink?

  And this is, this is, this is, so he's saying the Sodin accidents, the leadership accidents with difficulty are remedied. Are hard to fix. When leadership screws up, it's hard to fix. Those that are thought upon are with difficulty are remedied. If you use your head quickly. So yeah, there's going to be leadership problems and they're hard to fix unless you think and think quickly.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  How do you, how can you improve your, uh, speed of thinking? Do you know how you can do that?

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Practice.

• 1:17:53Jocko Willink?

  Practice.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Let's say get experience too, right? Cause experience gives you the practice.

• 1:18:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, it's experience. If I've seen something before, it's, I'm going to know a thousand times faster how I'm going to react to it.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:09Jocko Willink?

  If I haven't seen it before, I, it takes me a while just to comprehend what's in front of my face.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  So that's why when we train, we train to throw things. Okay. So first of all, when we train, we want to throw things at people that different scenarios, different things happening where they start to get pattern recognition. Oh, I've seen this type of thing before. On top of that, you also want to train people what to do or how to react when they've never seen it before. They've never seen anything like this before. Cause if I show you, let's say I'm training you for, well, I guess we might as well just use a jujitsu tournament, right? We use jujitsu. I'm training you for jujitsu situations, right? And I teach you how to defend this and I teach you how to defend that and I teach you how to defend this and I teach you how to defend that, right?

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  I teach you how to defend 10 different things and you get pretty good at it. I also have to teach you. A broad concept of what to do when there's something that you don't recognize. So, hey, if the guy grabs your arm, I want you to pull your arm here. Hey, if the guy starts to go for your neck, I want you to swing your arm, your hand underneath and tuck your chin. If the guy starts pulling towards your back, I want you to shift your leg up and so he can't maneuver around there. So I'm gonna give you exact steps to execute if you see these things. And then I'm gonna say this, if he's doing something you don't recognize, here's what I want you to do. I want you to tuck your elbows in, I want you to posture, and I want you to control his hips.

• 1:19:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. And then you'll start to be able to recognize what's going on. At least you're gonna survive. I want you to detach and step back and say, what's he attacking? Same thing with combat. I'm gonna train you like, hey, if he does this, you do that. If he does that, you do this. If you have no idea what's happening, here's what I want you to do. Get into a 360 degree perimeter, listen, right? I mean, whatever that, that situation's gonna call for, if you don't know what's happening, like if I don't know where I'm getting flanked from, or if I don't know where I'm getting shot at from, hey, everyone take a knee, get cover. Don't just start shooting because that's gonna cause confusion. It's also gonna give away our position. So what we're gonna do, we're gonna go into a 360 degree perimeter, we're gonna hold what we got.

• 1:20:29Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna listen. That's our, that's our, that's our, if we don't recognize what's happening, that's what we're gonna do. So we have standard operating procedures for things that we recognize, and we actually also have something to do if we don't recognize. We have a procedure for non-recognition.

• 1:20:46Jocko Willink?

  Which is, which is important.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  It's kinda like, I mean, it's different, I guess, but it kinda maybe fits in with, you know how people always say, expect the unexpected kinda thing, so it kinda fits in there. Where you're essentially trained for unexpected stuff like you have the protocol.

• 1:21:00Jocko Willink?

  I would say go one, yes, that's the important part. It's not just expect the unexpected, it's have a protocol for when something unexpected happens. Here's what we're going to do.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz a lot of times when something unexpected, I'm thinking jiu-jitsu right now. It's because that's on purpose, you know, like these guys with these weird games. These weird tall, flexible guys or something like that, they have these weird games, and they'll do stuff that they know, or they kinda rely upon you not have seen it before, like you didn't see it before, so. They can capitalize when you start to panic, you know, or when you can, you know, if let's say your arm is out here like, like there's some leg locks that that require you to kind of try to spin out of it and then they'll catch you with something else, right? It's kind of that. So if you have a protocol, that's just like, I don't know, whatever the protocol is, safety protocol, you know?

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  It not only keeps you safe, just statistically speaking, you know, chances are it'll keep you safe, but it'll jam up their game.

• 1:22:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Overall, you know, especially these people that they they they capitalize on you panicking and not knowing what to do.

• 1:22:07Jocko Willink?

  You know, and you want to have some kind of a reset position. And I used to use this with fighters like, hey, here's your reset position. Like, just get to here because you're comfortable there. Get them under control, control their hips, whatever.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Jocko Willink?

  Combat, same thing. Oh, you're you're you're everyone's confused. Everyone's mixed up. Guys are all over the place. Let's get to a reset position in a building.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:28Jocko Willink?

  Now everyone knows where we are. We get a control of ourselves.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Jocko Willink?

  Business, same thing. We got we got scenario that we don't know what's happening. You know what? General quarters, like, hey, we're all going to go to our normal positions. We're going to stand by because we don't know what's happening right now. So you've got to have, not just to expect the unexpected, you've got to have a protocol to follow when something is occurring that you don't understand yet. Some kind of a reset position. Put that in your world.

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Next up, number 25. Men, iron, money and bread be the strength of the war. But of these four, the first two be most necessary because men and iron find money and bread. But money and bread find not men and iron.

• 1:23:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that one's pretty, pretty cool, pretty self-explanatory. Now let me, let's go to a business perspective here. A business perspective here because this is a, this can help people make decisions in the business world.

• 1:23:37Jocko Willink?

  When you're going to make expenditures, when you are going to invest in something in your company.

• 1:23:46Jocko Willink?

  It is important to assess whether or not you are investing in something that is going to help you build, is going to help you grow, or if you're investing in something that is not. So for instance, let's say, let's say, hey, our, our, we could either take, you know, $50,000 and remodel our current office, or we can take $50,000 and we can rent this new sub-office in an area that we don't have any presence in. So which one is a better investment? Like, we don't really need that remodel of our office.

• 1:24:28Jocko Willink?

  This other thing is going to help us actually grow. So make sure that the investments that you're making, the first thing you want to invest in is men and iron, right? You don't want to invest in money and bread. Money and bread's going to be gone.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  And it doesn't reproduce. It doesn't reproduce itself. Whereas men and steel is going to get you more of that bread and iron in the long run. Or sorry, bread and money. All right, number 26. The unarmed rich man is a booty to the poor soldier. What does that mean? It means that the unarmed rich man is the prize of the poor soldier. That's what it means. It means, it means be armed. And this is the last one. Number 27.

• 1:25:22Jocko Willink?

  Accustom thy soldiers to despise delicate living and luxurious apparel. I like that one. What does that mean? Get your people, get your soldiers to despise delicate living. Despise comfort, despise luxurious clothing. That's what I'm talking about. They'll be better soldiers, they'll be better people. You feel like I'm talking to you right now?

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  What, the connoisseur of comfort?

• 1:25:54Jocko Willink?

  The connoisseur of comfort is in my firing line right now.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it, man. Obviously, I can't disagree with that because dang, I mean, yeah.

• 1:26:05Jocko Willink?

  When you've been uncomfortable for an extended period of time, does it not make you a better person?

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  A little bit. Yeah, it does.

• 1:26:10Jocko Willink?

  There we go.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, the whole idea, be comfortable with discomfort.

• 1:26:14Jocko Willink?

  You've told me the story of you, because I know it doesn't rain a lot here, but you used your kettlebells in the rain the other day. You've told me that story two times in a, two days in a row now.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Today, you told me that even Jade, your brother, came out, was impressed by your determination.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Commitment.

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  So what is it? What is it about that that made you feel compelled to tell me about it? And be, you know, for lack of a better word, pretty damn proud that you went out in the rain and did a kettlebell workout?

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  In the cold. Um, yes, well, yeah, it's strong.

• 1:26:52Jocko Willink?

  And how did you feel inside?

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  I felt strong.

• 1:26:55Jocko Willink?

  When it was over?

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Felt better, yeah.

• 1:26:57Jocko Willink?

  This is it.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it makes you stronger.

• 1:26:59Jocko Willink?

  I'm asking you real questions right now. It might seem like I'm joking, but it's actually real. You know why? Because this is a little step for you, and there's other people that are listening that would benefit from hearing how taking this little step away from comfort really, truly made you mentally and physically better. Go. Echo Charles.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  All right. Well, the, well, where can I start on that one? Okay, so, okay, yes, I go outside, I had a workout planned. It's raining, raining, kind of hard too, by the way. And it's kind of cold, the kind you gotta wear like a lot of clothes, you know? So yes, I go and do the whole workout hard too. And yes, my brother was like, dang, that's some dedication, whatever. But yes, so the feeling is, yeah, that I'm actually strong now, you know? It's like basically when you, when you break it down, it's like now you're strong, you're not weak. So weak would be like just the littlest thing will throw you off your plan, you know? The little thing because you can't, because you're so used to comfort, where you're so used to like the clothing thing.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, that's kind of weird too. Like if, if you always gotta be wearing like nice clothes, otherwise like you're kind of, you don't go out or something. I don't know. But it's kind of the same, seems like the same, same concept. But yeah, if you can endure that stuff.

• 1:28:15Jocko Willink?

  And then how do you feel when you're done?

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Better, yeah.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Did you feel better after a workout in the cold rain where you went and got after it than you would have had it been just normal seventy degrees and sunny SoCal?

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit, but I feel like um it's it was just more of a psychological thing, which does help big time because now you know that rain, you just proved to yourself that rain, cold, whatever is not an excuse. You see what I'm saying?

• 1:28:43Jocko Willink?

  How old are you?

• 1:28:46Jocko Willink?

  Forty years raining cold wasn't excuse, no more.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  No more.

• 1:28:49Jocko Willink?

  No more.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing.

• 1:28:50Jocko Willink?

  You're going to battle.

• 1:28:53Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny? Here's a good, here's a good expression we used to say in the day, when it was raining and cold, you know, we'd say, good operating weather. But it was like, uh, it was kinda, it's true, is definitely true because when it's raining and when it's cold, guess what? The people that are, you know, on watch, your enemy, guess what they're doing? They're, they're hiding. They're all bundled up and warm, so that makes it easier for you. Plus, there's noise from the rain, which camouflages the noise that you're making walking through the, the J or the woods or whatever. But that's always a good one. Whenever it's, whenever it's crappy weather, I always, I always say to myself, good operating weather.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  Kind of smile. But we used to say to each other, it's just like, you can't complain about it. You just look at your buddy as like when you, when the door of the, of the Hilo truck, you know what a Hilo truck is?

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:29:49Jocko Willink?

  But back in the day, we didn't have a lot of money for budget, and so we'd pretend that we were in helicopters. And we'd be in the back of big trucks and they'd just drive out in the middle of the desert, open up the Hilo truck and open it up, open up the door and we'd jump out like we just got out of a helicopter.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  Little did we know that when the war actually came, we would be using vehicles. We, we used vehicles all the time. We, I rarely, rarely used helicopters in Iraq. In Afghanistan, they used helicopters a lot more. But for me in Iraq, foot patrol and Hilo trucks, but we didn't have to call them Hilo trucks anymore. Now we just call them trucks.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:30:27Jocko Willink?

  But when you're in a Hilo truck in nineteen ninety-four and you get driven up into the wherever and the door of the Hilo truck opens out, opens up and it's raining and it's cold.

• 1:30:42Jocko Willink?

  And as you're getting out of the truck, your last moment to communicate out loud to everyone, you hear someone go, good operating weather.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:49Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, yeah, it is. This is gonna suck.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And it makes sense. So like, yeah, if you're used to being uncomfortable, right? Or if you like despise comfort, however you put it.

• 1:31:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:31:03Jocko Willink?

  It's not me.

• 1:31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:05Jocko Willink?

  Machiavelli said it, despise comfort.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  Despising comfort. Essentially, you're getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. You know how they say that, right?

• 1:31:14Jocko Willink?

  They do.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  They do, man. So yeah, that's what they're doing. So that's why, yeah, yeah. Just it basically at the end of the day improves your chance of success, you know? May, uh, roadblocks of discomfort come about in the future. That's what I.

• 1:31:27Jocko Willink?

  Indeed. And I, I

• 1:31:30Jocko Willink?

  I think that not only will the rejection of comfort make better soldiers, it'll make better people. So yes, as you said, get out of your comfort zone.

• 1:31:40Jocko Willink?

  Impose discipline and discomfort on yourself.

• 1:31:46Jocko Willink?

  And you will become a better person.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:52Jocko Willink?

  And that wraps up Machiavelli for now. But Echo, speaking of, um, getting out of our comfort zone, and this is gonna be a little dichotomy here.

• 1:32:05Jocko Willink?

  But getting out of our comfort zone to become better. What recommendations do you have for us to make that happen? Like I said, there's gonna be a dichotomy here.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  Cause what do we have?

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  Well. Well, there's a lot of things you have, but, but yeah, so being the connoisseur of comfort. And so you're kind of the connoisseur of discomfort, really, in a way.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  I don't know about that.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, though. People.

• 1:32:31Jocko Willink?

  I don't think about it much, though.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:33Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? I'd have to be like actively thinking about it.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  About what discomfort?

• 1:32:37Jocko Willink?

  Just about anything.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:32:38Jocko Willink?

  I'm just over here doing what I'm doing.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:40Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Just with discomfort.

• 1:32:43Jocko Willink?

  Just capability. I don't care. I don't care.

• 1:32:47Jocko Willink?

  There's that old Viking saying, it's like the rain is cold. And the old Viking says, how can the rain be cold?

• 1:32:56Jocko Willink?

  Right? The rain's not cold.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't know. I don't get it.

• 1:33:02Jocko Willink?

  How can the rain be cold?

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  If it's cold, Ben, it's cold.

• 1:33:06Jocko Willink?

  No, it's cold to you. When it hits you, the rain itself isn't cold.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  Okay, I understand.

• 1:33:10Jocko Willink?

  That's it's a play on words.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:33:12Jocko Willink?

  Little play on words.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  That's another good thing to think to yourself. Another good thing to think to yourself, you only get wet once.

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:19Jocko Willink?

  I've talked about that before.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 1:33:22Jocko Willink?

  You're waiting to go across a river, you're looking for the best spot, you're like, oh. No, you just get wet. You only get wet one time. Once you're wet, you're wet, doesn't matter anymore.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  It's true, so like.

• 1:33:31Jocko Willink?

  Suck it up.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  The comfort thing is, it's all, it's like context is a huge,

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  has a lot to do with it. Remember how I told you that time where it's like, you know, sometimes you can just fall asleep on the floor.

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  I know.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  Or in the beach, I don't know. But then sometimes you get in your, on your couch or on your wherever and you just can't fall asleep, can't get comfortable enough, you know?

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  Interesting.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Because you expect the comfort, is what I'm saying. But if you don't have any comfortable expectations, it's like you just be, you're just comfortable. It's almost like you're just appreciative for any kind of comfort. But if you expect mass comfort, it's like you can't get enough comfort, you know? Cause you just expect more. It's weird. So like, like, um, okay, so you, you know, you have experienced a cold water. Right? Getting in to go hit the surf, whatever. So when you're there, how hard is that?

• 1:34:24Jocko Willink?

  It's not.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Not, right? You're just like, we're just doing it. Yeah, this is what we're doing. This is, we're, we're whatever. It's cold, it sucks, whatever, even if it's. But, here's any, this is me, keep in mind, but still I think it holds true. So I'm getting in the shower the other day. It's cold here. California weather is cold.

• 1:34:43Jocko Willink?

  Tell that to Pete.

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  Well, Pete's gonna understand because this probably happened to him too. So listen, you know how you're cold, you know, like it's just sort of cold, right? So I'm about to take a shower and you know the kind when you turn on the shower, it's not just, doesn't come out all warm. It gotta, it takes a few seconds or whatever. So, so I turn it on and it hits me.

• 1:35:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, cause you take warm showers.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  That day I took a warm shower.

• 1:35:10Jocko Willink?

  Understood.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Anyway, the cold water like kinda hit me and I was, oh! There's no way I could bear going underneath that shower like before it gets warm. No way, man. No way. But then, and then whatever it heats up, but I'm thinking like, no, like Jocko guys go in that cold surf like for a long time and so then I'm thinking, no, it's totally in context, you know? Like if I, let's say a minute before I walked in the shower, I was like, I'm gonna take a cold shower right now. Doing it, literally the same exact time. I could do it. You see what I'm saying? So it's like a mindset kinda thing.

• 1:35:47Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  Even aside from the training, of course.

• 1:35:50Jocko Willink?

  I would say this, and the reason that I can't, me, it's just like blank.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  No, bro, it's not here.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Maybe it is, bro, but no, I don't know. Think about this. When you get out of bed, right? Well, then again, your routine's different. But yeah, let's say you're just sort of

• 1:36:06Jocko Willink?

  You don't have an actual ice bath.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's different too. Bro, I used to take ice baths all the time.

• 1:36:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  But that's different too. I'm saying like, what if you get, I don't know, out of bed or you're just cruising at home? Which you probably don't do, but let's say you were, and it was just cold, the kind of like, oh, I'm pretty cold right now. I should put on a jacket right now. A hoodie, whatever. That's how cold it is right here. Not freezing, but just I'm cold right now. I'm comfortably cold. And then let's say your son comes with a cup of ice water and dumps it on you. Right?

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  How would he sneak up on me?

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  So you're saying, okay, maybe he didn't sneak up on you. Maybe he was, I don't know. But let's say he poured the ice water on you.

• 1:36:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:36:48Speaker 01

  You're just telling me that you're like, whatever. That wouldn't. You'd be Viking like and be like, oh, like, I don't know. It's not cold.

• 1:36:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, I tell you, if he was looking for a reaction from me, I wouldn't give him the satisfaction.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Okay, which I dig, I dig it.

• 1:37:02Jocko Willink?

  There would be a grappling match happening real quick, though.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah, and I understand.

• 1:37:06Jocko Willink?

  It was an attack.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Okay, so that aside, I'm talking about the actual

• 1:37:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, of course, there's cold water hitting you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  But it's, so it's not nothing, but

• 1:37:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's something.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  But it's something. But that, compare that experience to if he came up to you and say, hey dad, I have this cup of, of cold water. It's kinda cold right now. Do you think you can like endure this? Right? And you're like, oh yeah, I can endure it. Do it. And he did it. I'm not saying that would be nothing or something. I'm saying that those two experiences are different.

• 1:37:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying?

• 1:37:37Jocko Willink?

  So this is the, uh, this is element of surprise is all we're talking about. One, you're surprised, one, you're not. If you're surprised, it's gonna throw you off a little bit.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:47Jocko Willink?

  If you're not surprised, you're braced for it. You're good to go.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, a surprise, that's just one element of a different context where you don't necessarily expect.

• 1:37:55Jocko Willink?

  Surprise and mental preparation.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Mental preparation is, I think, the overarching, because surprises would fall under the mental preparation umbrella.

• 1:38:03Jocko Willink?

  Stuff going on in your head, bro.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, that shower experience kind of enlightened me a little bit. Anyway.

• 1:38:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  Be comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's a jujitsu saying too, by the way.

• 1:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  Is that where you heard it mainly?

• 1:38:17Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I don't, I, maybe that's where I first heard it.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Jocko Willink?

  Because that's a good thing to have.

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  That's the, that's the backhanded compliment that Hicks and Gracie told me when I rolled with him back in the day.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  What, that you were comfortable with?

• 1:38:31Jocko Willink?

  He goes, he said, you're very, you're very comfortable when you're in really bad positions.

• 1:38:39Jocko Willink?

  And I was all happy.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go, see?

• 1:38:41Jocko Willink?

  He was good at jujitsu.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:38:43Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's what I heard too. Um, but yeah, so that's a jujitsu saying, so that means do jujitsu, kind of, really? That last stratagem, or, or what, what do you call it? Rules, general rule?

• 1:38:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  Is essentially.

• 1:38:57Jocko Willink?

  Despise delicate living.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:59Jocko Willink?

  Is jujitsu delicate living? No, it is not.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  It's not delicate, but it's not brutal.

• 1:39:06Jocko Willink?

  Depends who you roll with.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. Very true, actually.

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  There was some blood on the mat last night, boy.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  I believe. Anyway, do jujitsu. If, if we're not in jujitsu already.

• 1:39:16Jocko Willink?

  We might not agree on the different mindsets for cold and all that, but we do agree, do some jujitsu.

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  Do some jujitsu, and when you do it, you're gonna need a gi, and what gi do you get? None other than the gis that are made a hundred percent in America, from top to bottom. From Origin, OriginMaine.com. That's where you get them. You can get whatever gear you want on there. And you can get Garage Guard, so you can do no gear as well.

• 1:39:41Jocko Willink?

  And then you can get t-shirts and hoodies.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Which are comfortable.

• 1:39:47Jocko Willink?

  Which, which are the antithesis of what we're talking about.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Because you have claimed, and now this claim has been supported on social media sites around the world. That the Origin Jogger pants, which I don't wear, are universally the most comfortable pants of all time.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. Still, I mean, and I went on searches, like.

• 1:40:13Jocko Willink?

  My son got a pair for Christmas, because you know, when you're in my family, guess what you're getting for Christmas?

• 1:40:21Jocko Willink?

  Products.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, Origin stuff, of course.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  So he got a pair, and I tried them on, and he was like, you gotta take them off.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Well, because how they look.

• 1:40:29Jocko Willink?

  Because they just don't look.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Because you don't match.

• 1:40:30Jocko Willink?

  They're just not, they're not, it's not me.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, because joggers, as functional as they are, because they're super functional, as far as jogging and running goes. As functional as they are, they're, that's a style thing. Like, they're in style right now, but.

• 1:40:44Jocko Willink?

  They're somehow related to skinny jeans, are they not?

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Yes, they are. That's the look. That's the look, yes.

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Related.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  So you, yeah, bro, you can't wear that kind of stuff.

• 1:40:54Jocko Willink?

  They used to issue, when I was at Seal Team 2, Seal Team 1, we didn't have it, Seal Team 2, they issued us joggers. But this is back in the day, they were basically like, they were basically like the same thing. Because it was cold in the wintertime, and guys would want to run with those things on.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:12Jocko Willink?

  But I didn't wear those either.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:41:14Jocko Willink?

  But everybody else wore them.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Wait, and they're outer, they weren't underwear?

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  You'd wear them like over your running shorts.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Cool. There you go.

• 1:41:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  But these are, these are probably gonna be way more comfortable, the ones from Origin. Um, and they're made in America. By the way, I don't know if I mentioned that. But yeah, those are good jogger. Here's the thing, you despise comfort. Well, I don't think you despise comfort.

• 1:41:38Jocko Willink?

  Not as much as I should.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, that makes sense to me. I don't despise comfort. Just like I don't despise the rest between sets. Because comfort is there for a reason.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  When you're kinda cold.

• 1:41:50Jocko Willink?

  I guess that's what I was gonna say earlier. You enjoy comfort more when you have discomfort.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:56Jocko Willink?

  Right? You don't wanna be the person that's constantly in a feather pillow, temperature controlled scenario. Right? You wanna be in like, the tough environment and then you're like, oh, this feels good now.

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:08Jocko Willink?

  Like when you get out of the, when you've been surfing and it's cold. I went surfing the other day with no wetsuit on. And it's winter time here, by the way. But one of my, uh, two, actually of my toes were numb, straight up, white.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  How, so how cold is that? Maybe like what, fifty five?

• 1:42:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, something like that.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:26Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I only went for like forty five minutes.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:42:28Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, I was cold when I got done.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:31Jocko Willink?

  And then I went in the jacuzzi. And it felt good.

• 1:42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, see.

• 1:42:36Jocko Willink?

  I did not despise that comfort.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:39Jocko Willink?

  But it felt even better than if it was just a normal day and I wasn't, didn't have a numb two toes.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So really, it's more about the ability to endure discomfort. That's really what it is. So the la- the less time you spend uncomfortable, the less used to it you'll be. So the more like, you know, the less capable you'll be of, of enduring it.

• 1:43:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Kinda, that's kinda the, the thing.

• 1:43:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  Check. What they're going for. Anyway.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  Geez, rash guards, t-shirts, joggers, uh, supplements.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Supplements, of course. Joint supplements, which have shaken out to be the most important supplements there are. That, it's true.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  For a semi to moderate to highly active person, that's it.

• 1:43:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  I know this firsthand.

• 1:43:27Jocko Willink?

  Definitely, uh, so joint warfare, krill oil. Those are for your joints and for your whole life. Like, the, the stuff that's in joint warfare. Turmeric, it has all kinds, it's not just like, yeah, it's good for your joints, but it's good for a lot, it's good for everything.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:45Jocko Willink?

  Which is, as I was, you know, reading more about it, oh no, there was an article that sprang up, that's what it was. And I was like, wow, I didn't know that all this, no wonder I feel so good.

• 1:43:57Jocko Willink?

  Anyways, joint where for curl oil, discipline, there's also, so discipline comes in lemon lime, which is tasty. There's also the new

• 1:44:05Jocko Willink?

  Tropic Thunder.

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  Tropic.

• 1:44:06Jocko Willink?

  Because we couldn't call it, we couldn't call it pina colada, because that's just not happening.

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:44:11Jocko Willink?

  That was just a big negative. And then there's milk.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Additional protein.

• 1:44:18Jocko Willink?

  Additional protein. That tastes delicious.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  That tastes like a dessert, for real dessert, though.

• 1:44:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And if you have kids, or if you just, well, if you have kids, you get them Warrior Kid Milk, which is the best possible thing you can buy a child for food, in my opinion.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:35Jocko Willink?

  Taste, well, I guess if you get them steak.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  Sure, I think, I think vegetables are good, too.

• 1:44:40Jocko Willink?

  I'd even like steak when I was a little kid.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, you like burgers.

• 1:44:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I liked burgers, but, yeah.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  You're more refined now, luxurious now.

• 1:44:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it took me a while, though, it was an acquired taste getting into the steak thing.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  Huh, interesting.

• 1:44:53Jocko Willink?

  Plus, I had to learn how to cook it better.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:55Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, Warrior Kid Milk, and all that stuff from Origin, you can get it at originmaine.com.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  Dot com. Also, Jaco has a store, it's called Jaco Store. So, you go to JacoStore.com, and this is where you can get shirts that represent the path. I want to represent Discipline Equals Freedom, Discipline Equals Freedom shirt, here, and this is what I realized this, I know, I know, I think maybe a little bit too much into it, but this happened, though. When you wear a Discipline Equals Freedom shirt to workout, you like, won't skip the workout, you'll be more into the workout. I noticed that.

• 1:45:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Because you look at it and it says Discipline Equals Free, you know, it's like you're representing what it's actually saying. It's not one of these deals where it's like, ooh, a cool star on your shirt or something, which is cool.

• 1:45:45Jocko Willink?

  There's people that have taken that idea to the next level and gotten the Discipline Equals Freedom tattoos.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  See, same exact concept and yeah, man, I've seen it.

• 1:45:55Jocko Willink?

  Like, uh, one dude has the dysmegalus freedom. I think it's, it's basically on the inside of his wrist. Try eating a donut with that hand.

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  There's no way.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  That's the exact, yeah.

• 1:46:05Jocko Willink?

  If that happened, you'd, you'd be in serious violation.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:09Jocko Willink?

  Like, you couldn't do it.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  You'd feel it, like you'd be doing burpees for like forty five minutes after that.

• 1:46:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you seen, I posted a picture of, of the guy with it on the inside of his arm. Yeah, that was dope.

• 1:46:19Jocko Willink?

  No, there's one guy that has it on the inside of his arm. You're talking about the one guy, there's a guy that has it on his wrist.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the one recently. Yeah, it was that roll call.

• 1:46:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  That's when I took the picture. But yeah, I saw that. It was good. See, same exact concept, man. Because yeah, you can't not represent now, you know, you got the shirt on. Boom, you got the tattoo. Now you can never not represent. Or you're gonna pay the price.

• 1:46:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  To yourself, by the way, you know, so it's like a thing. I dig it, man. I dig it. Respect.

• 1:46:45Jocko Willink?

  Only get that tattoo. I think you should only get that tattoo if you

• 1:46:54Jocko Willink?

  if you're, you need to commit first, right?

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Jocko Willink?

  You need to commit first and then get the tattoo. Don't think that just the tattoo is gonna push you over the edge.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Even though it probably will.

• 1:47:04Jocko Willink?

  Even though it probably will.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  But maybe that's not the best approach for tattoo, uh, decision making. Is that, that's what you're saying? Either way, yeah, anyway, it's called jocko store dot com. You can get your, uh, you know, the shirts and, and.

• 1:47:16Jocko Willink?

  Before you get the tattoo, get the T-shirt.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  Get the shirt first, yes.

• 1:47:19Jocko Willink?

  Get a hat, get a hat that says it first.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  There's a lot of cool stuff.

• 1:47:22Jocko Willink?

  If you're in the game, cool, then you can step it up a little bit more. Hoodies.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Yes, women's stuff. I'm gonna have some new stuff on there, too.

• 1:47:31Jocko Willink?

  You keep saying that.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  I know, but you know, I'm gonna do it.

• 1:47:34Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, is there patches right now? Are we out of patches?

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Um, well.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  I don't know. Let me, let me double check.

• 1:47:40Jocko Willink?

  Let me check with, let me check with the guy that's in charge of Indian store. Oh, wait, that's you.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  Well, rest assured, hey, if you see something cool, get something. If something's sold out or something like that, I don't know, let me know, I guess. You know what, it won't be, or it'll be on the way. Either way, it's called JacoStore.com. A lot of cool stuff on there. If you want something, you want to represent in the wild, in the wild, by the way, get something. Also Jaco White Tea on the store that we sell that on the store too, by the way. But you can get this, yeah, it's good. Get it from Amazon as well. Where else?

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  Guess what I'm drinking right now? Hot tea.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:24Jocko Willink?

  You know why?

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Comfortable.

• 1:48:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's a little bit cold.

• 1:48:29Jocko Willink?

  Busted.

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  Hey, nah, nah, man, it makes, it makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. You're no stranger to discomfort. So I think you're kind of, you know, whatever. But yeah, Jaco White Tea is one of those deals where even if you don't like tea that much, you'll probably like this one.

• 1:48:43Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't, it tastes like tea, but it doesn't taste like tea. Can I say that? Does that make any sense?

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  You know, if you drink it, that makes sense.

• 1:48:51Jocko Willink?

  Dichotomy.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  There's a dichotomy.

• 1:48:52Jocko Willink?

  Drinking Jaco White Tea.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  But there's no dichotomy in the fact that you need deadlift.

• 1:48:57Jocko Willink?

  Dean was teaching the, the, the jujitsu class at the muster and he used the word dichotomy and then everyone started laughing.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause the way he says it is like directly teasing.

• 1:49:06Jocko Willink?

  Directly mocking me for using the word dichotomy. So, yeah.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  So, yeah, Jaco White Tea, outstanding, uh, stuff. Makes you deadlift 8,000 pounds, but we already knew that.

• 1:49:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, everyone knows that.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:19Jocko Willink?

  Worldwide deadlift has increased a lot.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Yep. Also, it's in cans, which is good for me because the whole brewing tea, uh, uh, sequence.

• 1:49:30Jocko Willink?

  Uncomfortable.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Is very uncomfortable for me. Yes. So, you know, can seems more cool, but whatever, whatever you like. Also subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already, uh, on, you know, wherever you listen to podcasts. There it is. I know. I, I don't think we even need to say that anymore.

• 1:49:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Well, I've said that for like a year or maybe even three years that we don't need to say to subscribe to the podcast, but we do need to say subscribe to the Warrior Kid Podcast.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49:53Jocko Willink?

  Check it out. Check it out. Even if you. Aren't a kid. Check it out. I use a different voice in that podcast. Dave Burke was talking about it.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:50:05Jocko Willink?

  He's like, I even like that different. I use this voice right here. It's a little bit more aimed at kids.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:12Jocko Willink?

  This is just the way I normally talk.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:14Jocko Willink?

  What I do, because I'm kind of Uncle Jake in that. Uncle Jake is a little bit more. He's not, he's, well, not dorky, but he just doesn't have his little bit of a dark side.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it. The dark edge.

• 1:50:29Jocko Willink?

  He's just good. He's like Uncle Jake is just good across the board.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:32Jocko Willink?

  You never know what I might have a little. I might have a little issue with something and get kind of crazy on it.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:39Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake's not gonna let that happen. So check out the Warrior Kid Podcast. If you want to get some more information to your kids. About being on the path and you can hear me talk and tell stories in this voice. From Uncle Jake.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually sounded actually exactly like how you sound on it, which is good. Anyway, also, yes, YouTube as well. So we do have a YouTube channel. If you didn't know that. It does have the video version of this podcast and also little excerpts and enhanced excerpts.

• 1:51:12Jocko Willink?

  By the way, I was noticing some of your recent excerpts. You can't make excerpts that are 12 minutes long. That's not an excerpts. That's just like a video.

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  Well, technically that's, that's not correct because an excerpt is just a part. No time limit.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  What I'm saying is 12 minutes is long, man.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  I know. And sometimes they can be 12 minutes.

• 1:51:32Jocko Willink?

  There's no way that everything in that 12 minutes is important.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Kind. Yeah, that's true.

• 1:51:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  But it depends.

• 1:51:38Jocko Willink?

  Get out your editing scissors and cut.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  Depends on how you look at it though.

• 1:51:42Jocko Willink?

  Bro, these things are supposed to be, an excerpt should be like, ah, you know what? Boom.

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  Not always.

• 1:51:47Jocko Willink?

  Two minutes and 28 seconds later, you're like, yeah, I got this.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I dig it. I agree, but not a lot of time.

• 1:51:52Jocko Willink?

  You want people to pull up a couch and heave in for the night.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  Well, some of us.

• 1:51:56Jocko Willink?

  Watch it 12.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  Some of us are on the computer doing other stuff. And then boom, there the excerpt comes up, you know, about maybe. Or maybe it's like you saying something and me disagreeing and then you saying, well, this is this. And I'm saying, well, that's true, but what about this? And you're like, okay, or whatever, you know, it's like a little, it's like a little conversation. That's not two hours, see what I'm saying?

• 1:52:19Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's presentable. It's good.

• 1:52:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so there's, there's on the YouTube channel, there's long and short excerpts.

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:52:27Jocko Willink?

  There's digestible. And there's a little bit more like, you know, meal time.

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  Conversational, uh, you know, cause it's less about like the shortness and shareability. Necessarily, it's more about like, hey, remember this.

• 1:52:43Jocko Willink?

  Shareability, oh, like I can, you watch.

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a minute. Yeah, they're more likely to watch the minute video than the 12 minute video. But the 12 minutes, like the kind of like, if you just want to hear about like this specific like topic that happened to take 12, they're not all 12 minutes. There's like one. This may be like eight minutes though, maybe six, either way.

• 1:53:05Jocko Willink?

  Psychological warfare too, speaking of little excerpts, those are just short.

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  Short.

• 1:53:11Jocko Willink?

  One to two minutes of how to overcome some type of momentary weakness that you might have. If you don't have a discipline equals freedom tattoo on your wrist, that's going to keep you in check. The, this is another thing you can do prior to getting that tattoo. You can just load up your psychological warfare on iTunes, Google Play, MP3 platforms, whatever, and listen to those.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  Yes, which is Jaco telling you how to overcome the weakness. That is, that's, that tattoo on your wrist, discipline equals freedom is like the ultimate psychological warfare.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  It is a weapon.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  It is a weapon. Like boom, discipline.

• 1:53:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, what if you put discipline on one wrist and freedom on the other wrist?

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  I actually might do that. That's pretty good.

• 1:53:51Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty good.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Discipline, freedom, boom.

• 1:53:53Jocko Willink?

  At Origin, uh, I've been talking to Pete, we're trying to buy a machine that can make.

• 1:54:01Jocko Willink?

  Sweatbands, wristbands.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  Right. And then once we have that power, two things. Number one, I'm gonna make the best wristbands. Cause I, I wear wristbands every time I work out.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:12Jocko Willink?

  And, but there is no good wristbands in the world. There's none of them that meet the standards that I would like them to meet.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Why do you wear wristbands?

• 1:54:20Jocko Willink?

  Uh, sweat primarily.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  Oh, so it doesn't go on your hand?

• 1:54:23Jocko Willink?

  Cause the sweat will run right down my arms and my hands and I'm just dropping everything and it sucks.

• 1:54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:27Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, I'm gonna make wristbands that are super long.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:54:34Jocko Willink?

  And really like just. But I told Pete, I'm like, we can put discipline on one and freedom on the other one.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:42Jocko Willink?

  And you can buy a little set.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:44Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, Pete's, Pete's shopping for the machine right now.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  Good. Can you make socks too?

• 1:54:48Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it can make socks. Pete sent me a picture of a machine. And he goes, what do you think this makes? And I looked at it and I, I don't know. I just kinda like logically, it was sort of like, um, you could see stuff 360 degrees around something else. And I was like, I bet you, I said socks and he goes, damn. Cause I'm not in the industry.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  Right, right. But you can recognize.

• 1:55:11Jocko Willink?

  Pete was impressed with my logic.

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:14Jocko Willink?

  You're deducing. Deductive skills.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's good. I'm impressed too. Speaking of being impressed, go to Onnit. So Onnit, the company I'm impressed with, always have been, by the way. So go to Onnit.com slash Jaco. This is where you can get kettlebells, all kinds of cool workout equipment that you can just slowly add to your arsenal at home. If you've got a home gym, whatever. Really good stuff on there. Also good info on there.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  So, you know, if you wanna educate yourself a little bit more, boom, that's the place to go. Onnit.com slash Jaco. Really good stuff on there. Really good.

• 1:55:48Jocko Willink?

  We got some books. We got Mikey and the Dragons, which is fully in stock.

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Fully, yeah.

• 1:55:55Jocko Willink?

  It, it ran a little low. We almost didn't make Christmas, but we made it. Thank God.

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:56:00Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to everyone on the team that helped us and all the printers around that, that printed us copies. And we got a bunch of copies and everyone got them by Christmas. That I know of. Everyone that's reached out on Twitter that said, it's not here yet. On December 19th or 13th was like, we still don't have it. I ordered October. I was like, it's coming. He's coming.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:21Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, but as far as I know, everyone got him when they, they got him in time for Christmas. So, um, now we have a lot. So if you want to get Mikey and the Dragons, best children's book ever.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 1:56:38Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:56:41Jocko Willink?

  Disagree with me.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  No, I, well, I think just by nature, I'm like, whoa, you just made a claim. Let me like refute it. So I'm all thinking, but hey man, I geek, cause obviously I would be like, hey, what about this way of the warrior kid? Cause I thought that was the best kids book ever.

• 1:56:54Jocko Willink?

  What age group?

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  For which?

• 1:56:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Best young, best, was it a toddler that reads Mikey and the Dragons?

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Toddler reads Mikey and the Dragons. Toddler?

• 1:57:05Jocko Willink?

  Best.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  What's a toddler?

• 1:57:06Jocko Willink?

  Someone who can walk.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, some toddlers can't understand.

• 1:57:10Jocko Willink?

  So best children's book, picture book with, for ages five and under, seven and six and under.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:57:19Jocko Willink?

  Mikey and the Dragons there. Okay. We broke that down. Order that. Way of the Warrior Kid. When the kids get a little bit older, order Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. Book three has been written. I got pictures from John Bozak today via text. You saw him, right?

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  Witnessed, yes.

• 1:57:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. How, how do you like him?

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  We like him a lot.

• 1:57:35Jocko Willink?

  I showed, I showed Danny Reinhardt to my youngest daughter and I've been, I've been, I've been telling her about Danny Reinhardt for a long time. Cause Danny Reinhardt does everything perfect and Danny Reinhardt does everything good and Mark's kinda jealous of him. And I should, and she was, she's been, she got all into the name Danny Reinhardt.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's annoyed with him.

• 1:57:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. She's already doesn't like him. But the, the interesting twist on the story is Danny Reinhardt's actually a good kid. And he just happens to be talented and he happens to work hard and he's actually nice, but Mark's jealous. So Warrior Kid three coming out in the spring and right now we got Warrior Kid one and Warrior Kid two, Mark's Mission. Also got Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 1:58:20Jocko Willink?

  The manual for getting after it in life.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  In life, yeah.

• 1:58:24Jocko Willink?

  Super stoked on everyone that's posting pictures. And I'm actually most stoked when somebody posts a picture that they've lost 162 pounds.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:36Jocko Willink?

  In 14 months or whatever.

• 1:58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:38Jocko Willink?

  Completely changed their lives.

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:41Jocko Willink?

  Why discipline equals freedom? So you can get that book for yourself. That's also pre tattoo. Maybe before you get the tattoo, you just leave this out on your coffee table.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:53Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:54Jocko Willink?

  You just have it there because it's looking at you. That book is looking at you.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:58Jocko Willink?

  I got a stack of them in my room. I feel them.

• 1:59:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:59:00Jocko Willink?

  They keep me.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Keep you right on there.

• 1:59:03Jocko Willink?

  So if you want, if you want the audio version, it's on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, other MP3 platforms. Obviously, Extreme Ownership, the first book that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin, taking the lessons that we learned on the battlefield. And explaining how they can be applied to your business and to your life. And that was the followed up, that was followed up by the book that we just had come up out called The Dichotomy of Leadership. And this is getting granular in how to apply those leadership principles into your world. Also, we have Echelon Front, which is my leadership consultancy. And what we do is solve problems through leadership. If you have any kind of problem in your organization, it is a leadership problem.

• 1:59:49Jocko Willink?

  It is a leadership problem.

• 1:59:53Jocko Willink?

  We will help get your leadership fixed, get them aligned and get them working and get the team functioning properly. We also have a leadership conference that we do. It's called the muster. In 2019, there are three musters, May 23rd and 24th in Chicago, September 19th and 20th in Denver, and December 4th and 5th in Sydney, Australia.

• 2:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Check out extremeownership.com for the details and to register. All of them that we have done have sold out. This is, and what I'm saying they sold out. This is when people call me up and say, or like people that I know. Yeah. Say, hey, hey, I know we're a little late. Just wanna, can you just, um, can you just reserve three seats for me and you know, these two other people that I work with? And I'm like, actually, no, I can't. You cannot come. Well, we'll just stand in the back. No, there's fire codes that you can't come. Yeah. Everyone thinks you all just, you know, no. Yeah, just. It's sold out. Yeah. So you can't come. The, the, um, the live podcast we're doing, January 9th.

• 2:01:01Jocko Willink?

  Sold out immediately. It's like, sorry. Gotta be quick on those, I guess.

• 2:01:08Jocko Willink?

  So there's that. Now, we do have this, EF Online. This is, this is the interactive training, leadership training that we put together. And, okay, so there's several places where this stemmed from. One of them is the muster itself. Cause guess what? The muster is great foundational information. It's a great foundational leadership. Um, instruction that you're gonna get when you go. Not everyone can make it to the muster. So what we did is we took the content from the first, like, two musters that we did. And this is the fundamental principles from Extreme Ownership, from the Academy of Leadership. We took those and put them into interactive online training.

• 2:01:51Jocko Willink?

  So that people that couldn't make it to the muster could still get that training. We also did it because companies that we work with, sometimes they have 10,000 employees, 20,000 employees, 100,000 employees. And all the employees are not all in one place. They're all over the place. They're all over the country and they're all over the world. How are we gonna train all those people? We, what we needed to do is figure out a way to scale the training that we did. There was many requests from the larger companies we work with to get the training to all their employees. How do we do that? We had to scale it. So we put it online. And then once we put it online for companies, we figured, okay, let's get it out there for

• 2:02:33Jocko Willink?

  direct to consumers that want to take the training. They can't come to the muster, what have you, or they wanna get reminded what they learned at the muster. Same thing. So that's online training. It's available now at efonline.com. Also, we've got EF Overwatch where we are taking leadership gaps in the civilian sector and we are filling those leadership gaps with trained and experienced and tested leaders from combat aviation and from the spec ops community. Go to efoverwatch.com regardless of which side of that equation you're on, whether you're a company

• 2:03:14Jocko Willink?

  that needs leaders, whether you're a vet that's seeking a leadership position in a company. Go to efoverwatch.com and fill out the information that applies to you.

• 2:03:27Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to continue this conversation with us, we can be found all up in the interwebs, on Instagram, on Twitter, and on the Facebook.

• 2:03:40Jocko Willink?

  Keep on. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, to all our military personnel out there, thank you for protecting freedom around the world and to our folks in uniform here at home, police and law enforcement and firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, correctional officers, Border Patrol, all first responders. Thanks for protecting us and our families.

• 2:04:07Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else out there, remember that discipline is stronger than fury.

• 2:04:17Jocko Willink?

  You need a little bit of fury. You need a little bit of discipline. You need to combine those things. But you take that discipline and you impose discipline upon yourself and reject and refuse delicate living and the luxuries that are available to you in life and instead

• 2:04:40Jocko Willink?

  get out of that comfort and make yourself better, faster, smarter, and stronger by going out there day after day after day

• 2:04:51Jocko Willink?

  and getting after it.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.

• 2:04:59Jocko Willink?

  Out.