160: Live in NYC. Humbled and Mystified.

0:00:00 - Opening: A Letter to Seth Stone. 0:42:31 - Rough transition to Q and A. 1:34:51 - Q and A from the Audience. 2:19:08 - Closing. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast Number 160 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:20Jocko Willink?

  October.

• 0:24Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna head your way and see you today.

• 0:31Jocko Willink?

  Though.

• 0:34Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes I wonder why I should.

• 0:40Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you don't seem to care.

• 0:44Jocko Willink?

  And that makes me mad brother.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  And then when I see you, it doesn't really make me feel any better.

• 0:58Jocko Willink?

  Should it?

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  Is that what this is for?

• 1:07Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't seem to be.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  It actually just makes me remember the way things used to be.

• 1:18Jocko Willink?

  Better times.

• 1:22Jocko Willink?

  It makes me wonder why things turned out this way.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  What did I do wrong?

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  Should I have done something different?

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  What could I have said?

• 1:45Jocko Willink?

  You never let me down, ever.

• 1:53Jocko Willink?

  But now you won't even talk to me.

• 1:59Jocko Willink?

  I was looking at some of the things you wrote to me in the past.

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  I opened up an email.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  In it, you wrote, "I feel it again, washing over me."

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  "The descent into degeneration and disintegration, the smell of filth, black water mixed with blood and gunpowder and shit."

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  "The American soldier, covered in filth, 11 months into a 16-month deployment."

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  "The insurgents."

• 2:41Jocko Willink?

  "Grown men hiding behind children."

• 2:46Jocko Willink?

  "Women wailing over the dead, explosions and screams and fragments of concrete flying through the air."

• 2:57Jocko Willink?

  "And frogmen enter the scene to take the hand of the American soldier and pull him from the whirlpool."

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  "To set his feet back on the rock and speak words of hope."

• 3:13Jocko Willink?

  "We are the prophets of doom and destruction. We enter an area and take back the lost pride of America."

• 3:22Jocko Willink?

  "We redden the stripes, blue the field, and make the stars of our tattered and humiliated battle ensign shine once again."

• 3:34Jocko Willink?

  "We hold it high." "We carry a nation on our shoulders, and we bring the enemy to its knees."

• 3:45Jocko Willink?

  "We do not live in fear of death, or wounding, or even worse, rejection by the country we love."

• 3:56Jocko Willink?

  "I feel my mind coming apart, and the old sleeping animal coming out."

• 4:04Jocko Willink?

  "I tried to keep it inside, but it cannot help but attend the call to battle."

• 4:20Jocko Willink?

  When you originally wrote that to me, I thought to myself,

• 4:27Jocko Willink?

  yup,

• 4:29Jocko Willink?

  he's there again,

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  where he should be.

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  I knew it wouldn't last forever,

• 4:43Jocko Willink?

  but where are you now?

• 4:48Jocko Willink?

  Now you seem distant.

• 4:52Jocko Willink?

  In my head, I can see you smile, I can hear you laugh,

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  but it's only in my head.

• 5:03Jocko Willink?

  I was surfing the other day, it was one of those days, a good day.

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  Solid swell, no wind, tide was low and the sky was clear and bright.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  I kept looking out, toward the outside,

• 5:26Jocko Willink?

  where you used to sit and wait for the big set waves.

• 5:33Jocko Willink?

  I thought I saw you a couple times,

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  but it wasn't you.

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  I heard someone paddling behind me.

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  Must be you, I thought.

• 5:49Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  Nothing.

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  No one's there.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  I'm all alone out here.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  Everything is the same, but nothing is the same.

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  Everything has changed, but nothing has changed.

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  Does anything ever change?

• 6:21Jocko Willink?

  Look at the waves as they approach the shore.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  Each wave formed through random combinations of wind and sea and pressure, and each one completely unique.

• 6:40Jocko Willink?

  And when they break, they're gone forever.

• 6:49Jocko Willink?

  But then another one comes behind it. And another one.

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  They are all different.

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  But they're all the same.

• 7:05Jocko Willink?

  And I see some of the past in the future, and I see some of the future in the past, and I begin to wonder which is which.

• 7:16Jocko Willink?

  How did I get here?

• 7:21Jocko Willink?

  Where am I going to end up?

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  Where are you?

• 7:32Jocko Willink?

  I look at some more of your writing.

• 7:35Jocko Willink?

  You are telling a story, writing a story about a man, about God,

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  about life, about death.

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  And this is what you wrote.

• 7:54Jocko Willink?

  "I am ready to go," he thought to himself.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  "But for you, I wait for the appointed time."

• 8:05Jocko Willink?

  "Thy will," he said to himself, and closed his eyes and placed his hands on the pages as if there was some strength there, and he prayed.

• 8:20Jocko Willink?

  While he prayed, he also thought of past times.

• 8:26Jocko Willink?

  He breathed in deep and exhaled.

• 8:32Jocko Willink?

  "Deliver us from the evil one," he muttered.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  And he thought of all the reasons he had no right to say this prayer.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  At that, he steadied himself, opened his eyes, and looked out into the first light of the morning.

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  He saw a face not his own looking back at him from the window and disappear.

• 9:01Jocko Willink?

  But he was not startled.

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  This kind of thing was normal.

• 9:09Jocko Willink?

  "I'm ready for you," he thought to himself.

• 9:14Jocko Willink?

  While he ran that morning, he did not think about anything. His mind retreated deep into itself, or perhaps it shut down altogether and he wore no expression.

• 9:28Jocko Willink?

  He only looked out at the sea and watched as the seabirds glided above the undulating plain of water, moving close above its surface but managing somehow not to touch it.

• 9:42Jocko Willink?

  At home, he heaved weights around on a small concrete slab. His routine effortlessly recited and at the same time painfully undertaken again, without thought or care.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  Every morning the same. Marking off time until an appointed end.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  His final rendezvous.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  That's what you wrote?

• 10:22Jocko Willink?

  Is that what we are doing here? Marking off time until an appointed end?

• 10:32Jocko Willink?

  My memory plays tricks on me.

• 10:39Jocko Willink?

  How many days do I remember?

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  How many days do I actually remember?

• 10:51Jocko Willink?

  And what good is a day that I can't remember?

• 10:57Jocko Willink?

  Did it happen?

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  Did it exist?

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  I wanna remember every day, but I can't.

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  I let some of them go.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  And I hate that.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  I wanna remember and re-remember the times we had together.

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  We played songs on the guitar.

• 11:38Jocko Willink?

  But I can't hear them anymore.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  They are gone.

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  I can't recreate them.

• 11:56Jocko Willink?

  I'm not good enough.

• 12:01Jocko Willink?

  Can we play them again?

• 12:07Jocko Willink?

  One more song?

• 12:15Jocko Willink?

  Here is some more of your writing.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  "I am God's messenger.

• 12:24Jocko Willink?

  I am a chieftain of Michael the angel.

• 12:29Jocko Willink?

  He has granted my request to help you, for it is you who are doing the bidding of the king.

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  We have heard your many prayers. They burn before us day and night. Yes, heaven is full of the fragrance of your prayers.

• 12:48Jocko Willink?

  And I bring glad tidings from the Lord of lords.

• 12:55Jocko Willink?

  He is preparing his mount to ride here.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  But there is still more to be done on earth before he wields his scythe and sword upon it.

• 13:09Jocko Willink?

  I bring a message.

• 13:12Jocko Willink?

  The Lord of lords wants to help you reap the spirits against whom you are warring.

• 13:23Jocko Willink?

  Indeed, Satan has asked to have you.

• 13:27Jocko Willink?

  But we will not let that happen.

• 13:33Jocko Willink?

  Of course, you always have a choice.

• 13:38Jocko Willink?

  I have come a long way, though.

• 13:42Jocko Willink?

  I came when we heard your last prayer.

• 13:47Jocko Willink?

  You will not be turned."

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  When I read that,

• 14:02Jocko Willink?

  it seems obvious.

• 14:07Jocko Willink?

  Even God was on your side.

• 14:12Jocko Willink?

  But if God was on your side, how did you end up like this then?

• 14:19Jocko Willink?

  How could you do this to me?

• 14:24Jocko Willink?

  What about me?

• 14:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know. I'm being selfish, but what about me?

• 14:38Jocko Willink?

  You know what, I'm not going to see you today. You can wait.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  After everything I did for you, after everything we went through together,

• 14:53Jocko Willink?

  you can wait.

• 15:01Jocko Willink?

  December.

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 15:10Jocko Willink?

  I calmed down a little bit.

• 15:14Jocko Willink?

  I pride myself in keeping control of my emotions, but I gotta admit, you had me breaking down a little bit for a while.

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  Did you see that?

• 15:33Jocko Willink?

  You're probably laughing at me. So, I'm gonna come up and see you today.

• 15:40Jocko Willink?

  Is that cool?

• 15:44Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's supposed to be cool.

• 15:49Jocko Willink?

  If nothing else,

• 15:52Jocko Willink?

  just to say goodbye.

• 15:56Jocko Willink?

  I'll bring you a beer or two.

• 16:01Jocko Willink?

  I don't even drink anymore, but you know what? If you crack one open with me, I'll have one with you.

• 16:10Jocko Willink?

  Like old times.

• 16:16Jocko Willink?

  What happened to those times?

• 16:22Jocko Willink?

  We were brothers.

• 16:28Jocko Willink?

  And when we came home, we knew, we made it.

• 16:36Jocko Willink?

  We made it, man.

• 16:40Jocko Willink?

  As crazy it seems, I was actually never that worried about you.

• 16:48Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you were blessed. Maybe you were lucky, maybe it was both, but whatever it was, it worked.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  You even wrote to me during your next deployment.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  This is what you wrote.

• 17:09Jocko Willink?

  "All I interject is my part, the firing and yelling part.

• 17:15Jocko Willink?

  But the bullets do not hit me. They never hit me. They pass through me like a miracle."

• 17:23Jocko Willink?

  "Two days ago, we drove through a village and knocked all the power lines down. And it was night, and the sparks were like incoming RPGs."

• 17:35Jocko Willink?

  "I wished they were and braced."

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  "But they weren't." "And the IEDs won't come either. They won't hit me."

• 17:48Jocko Willink?

  "It's like I'm being..."

• 17:52Jocko Willink?

  "...protected."

• 17:58Jocko Willink?

  You capitalized the "P" in "protected."

• 18:05Jocko Willink?

  You believed it was a higher power.

• 18:11Jocko Willink?

  I can't rightly argue with you on that.

• 18:19Jocko Willink?

  But if that's so true...

• 18:23Jocko Willink?

  How did this happen?

• 18:27Jocko Willink?

  Why did this happen? Where did that protection go?

• 18:33Jocko Willink?

  Did it abandon you like you abandoned me?

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  What am I supposed to do now?

• 18:50Jocko Willink?

  You know what?

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  I'm not going to see you today.

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  You can wait.

• 19:07Jocko Willink?

  February.

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  It's a new year.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  Let's try this again.

• 19:20Jocko Willink?

  "Time heals all wounds," they say. So we should be good now, right?

• 19:28Jocko Willink?

  I should be over it all by now. I'll come see you and at a minimum, say goodbye. Just... Just say goodbye. Just tell you, that's it. No hard feelings. Don't take it personally.

• 19:45Jocko Willink?

  I've decided I'm gonna go ahead and proceed on down the path without you.

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  Alone.

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  And I'm used to being alone.

• 20:02Jocko Willink?

  No big deal.

• 20:04Jocko Willink?

  I kinda like it.

• 20:10Jocko Willink?

  But even I have to admit it was nice.

• 20:15Jocko Willink?

  Nice to have someone to talk to. Nice to have someone to talk to without even talking.

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  A look, a nod.

• 20:27Jocko Willink?

  A smile.

• 20:33Jocko Willink?

  No one is smiling back anymore.

• 20:40Jocko Willink?

  No one.

• 20:47Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes I look up at the night sky.

• 20:53Jocko Willink?

  That can approximate a smile.

• 20:59Jocko Willink?

  I see a smile in the sunset. I don't know why.

• 21:05Jocko Willink?

  I try to milk what I can out of every day. I should be cursing the sunset.

• 21:16Jocko Willink?

  That sunset means another day is gone.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  I should be cursing it, but I don't.

• 21:28Jocko Willink?

  I take a few minutes when I can, and I watch it.

• 21:36Jocko Willink?

  Goodnight, Al Huey.

• 21:39Jocko Willink?

  Goodnight, Chesty.

• 21:43Jocko Willink?

  Goodnight, Stoner.

• 21:51Jocko Willink?

  Maybe there's some relief that the day is gone, is that it? That, that part of the race is over and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it.

• 22:08Jocko Willink?

  When my oldest daughter was little,

• 22:12Jocko Willink?

  we would watch the sunset over the ocean when we'd get the chance.

• 22:20Jocko Willink?

  And she was at that age, when she was only just starting to talk, she could just say a handful of words.

• 22:30Jocko Willink?

  When she wanted a drink of milk, she would say, "Noke."

• 22:38Jocko Willink?

  When she wanted to go on the swing, she would say, "Ving."

• 22:45Jocko Willink?

  When I would throw her up in the air and catch her, she would laugh, and she would giggle, and she would say the word, "Again."

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  And she and I were sitting on the seawall. It was autumn, and the sun was leaning towards the south, and we watched, and she watched the colors in the sky.

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  Red, and yellow, and orange, like fire, and the water ignited.

• 23:23Jocko Willink?

  Then it turned black, and the sun disappeared into the ocean, and she looked up at me, and she said, "Again."

• 23:37Jocko Willink?

  She wanted it back.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  But I couldn't do anything for her.

• 23:54Jocko Willink?

  I was powerless.

• 23:59Jocko Willink?

  I still am.

• 24:02Jocko Willink?

  I can't stop the clock and I can't bring back a day. Not one single day, not one single minute. You get what you get.

• 24:18Jocko Willink?

  And that sunset will keep a man's ego in check. Especially when your complete lack of control disappoints the little angel sitting on your knee.

• 24:36Jocko Willink?

  And I can't control this situation either.

• 24:41Jocko Willink?

  And that stings.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  And I don't want to face that.

• 24:51Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to say goodbye.

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  That can wait.

• 24:59Jocko Willink?

  You can wait.

• 25:07Jocko Willink?

  May.

• 25:10Jocko Willink?

  Springtime.

• 25:14Jocko Willink?

  Rebirth. So I'm told.

• 25:20Jocko Willink?

  The winter swell fades but the water warms up.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  The days get longer again.

• 25:32Jocko Willink?

  I like that.

• 25:35Jocko Willink?

  I look at more of your words.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  They read: "He found a sleeping spot. Happy and excited with anticipation, he thought of the glory which was to come, and he slept tranquilly and did not dream.

• 25:54Jocko Willink?

  The blue midnight sky held no trace of trouble, almost no clouds. Only a wisp of silver gray near the moon that seemed to be something beautiful for the humans below to look at as an omen that something good might happen.

• 26:13Jocko Willink?

  As some kind of sign that heaven awaited it.

• 26:19Jocko Willink?

  The good thing."

• 26:26Jocko Willink?

  "The good thing," you wrote.

• 26:31Jocko Willink?

  "What am I supposed to do with that?"

• 26:36Jocko Willink?

  "You set me up," you know, "with thoughts of the good thing."

• 26:45Jocko Willink?

  "Because there we were."

• 26:49Jocko Willink?

  "You know, we were headed in the right direction toward the good things."

• 26:58Jocko Willink?

  "When you listen to me, things worked out, always." "Right?"

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  "You know it." "When you listen to me and you put your damn heart in check, things worked out."

• 27:19Jocko Willink?

  "It's your problem. You listen to your heart too much. You know this."

• 27:25Jocko Willink?

  "Let your emotions get a hold of you. You know it's true."

• 27:30Jocko Willink?

  "I told you a thousand times, ten thousand times."

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  "And you tried to listen. And you did listen, sometimes."

• 27:44Jocko Willink?

  "But your heart couldn't be completely subdued. It was too strong."

• 27:52Jocko Willink?

  "Too strong for its own good."

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, I know.

• 28:04Jocko Willink?

  I know that's what makes you, you.

• 28:09Jocko Willink?

  Fine.

• 28:15Jocko Willink?

  But you should have listened to me. You should have listened.

• 28:27Jocko Willink?

  And now, I am here, and you are there, and there's nothing I can do about it.

• 28:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm powerless.

• 28:48Jocko Willink?

  July.

• 28:52Jocko Willink?

  Full-fledged summer now.

• 28:57Jocko Willink?

  Campfires and guitar on the regular.

• 29:02Jocko Willink?

  Where are you at?

• 29:07Jocko Willink?

  And let me ask you something, if you aren't gonna come around, then can you just let me be?

• 29:15Jocko Willink?

  I don't want you in my head, right now.

• 29:20Jocko Willink?

  I don't wanna get dragged back every time I strum a chord.

• 29:32Jocko Willink?

  I remember.

• 29:36Jocko Willink?

  We were traveling up the coast, you and me.

• 29:41Jocko Willink?

  Lazy days.

• 29:45Jocko Willink?

  Surfing by day. Playing on the Git boxes at night.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  We were looking for bigger waves.

• 29:56Jocko Willink?

  The kind of waves that get the blood flowing.

• 30:01Jocko Willink?

  We found some.

• 30:08Jocko Willink?

  But what were we really looking for?

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  You know as well as I.

• 30:17Jocko Willink?

  We were looking for that thing.

• 30:22Jocko Willink?

  That moment. That moment when nothing else matters. That moment that is sourced directly from the battlefield.

• 30:36Jocko Willink?

  Hard to find anywhere else.

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  So we, we try and get close to it. Jiu-Jitsu, surfing, whatever, but it's hard to replace. Maybe it can't be replaced.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it just is what it is.

• 30:58Jocko Willink?

  I think I understood that.

• 31:03Jocko Willink?

  I'm not sure you did.

• 31:07Jocko Willink?

  I was able to rationalize it, figure it out, detach from it. See it from the outside.

• 31:17Jocko Willink?

  Before that trip up the coast, you had written me these words.

• 31:24Jocko Willink?

  "Send us. We are thirsty for screams and gore and hell and dirt and shit.

• 31:35Jocko Willink?

  We will hack our way through scores of bodies, form them up in a pile and burn them so we can kill by the pyre light."

• 31:45Jocko Willink?

  "Somebody spread the good news that the killer's teeth are sharp and their guns are clean and their souls are dead, so no one needs anything but victory and sacred deference when this is done."

• 32:05Jocko Willink?

  You see, that was your heart talking again.

• 32:11Jocko Willink?

  The same heart that wrapped around a girl you met. The same heart that brought my kid's birthday presents. The same heart that was

• 32:21Jocko Willink?

  broken by the loss of our friends.

• 32:26Jocko Willink?

  A heart capable of both devotion and destruction.

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  I told you to let it all go.

• 32:42Jocko Willink?

  I told you.

• 32:51Jocko Willink?

  But I can't control everything.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  I'm still powerless.

• 33:09Jocko Willink?

  September.

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  A year has passed.

• 33:19Jocko Willink?

  Or was it yesterday?

• 33:24Jocko Willink?

  Time seems like a trick, but the trick is on me because it's no trick at all. Time does not waver, it does not relinquish. It isn't tricky, it just is.

• 33:37Jocko Willink?

  And it is moving on without judgment and without mercy, and it will keep moving.

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  I am coming up to see you today.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  I have to.

• 33:56Jocko Willink?

  I have to say goodbye.

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  I can't do it like this anymore, carrying you around in my head.

• 34:07Jocko Willink?

  Bringing back the past so often that it's interfering with the present and the future. That's not right.

• 34:17Jocko Willink?

  That wasn't part of the deal.

• 34:26Jocko Willink?

  I arrive.

• 34:33Jocko Willink?

  You're still there.

• 34:37Jocko Willink?

  Where I left you.

• 34:41Jocko Willink?

  I brought you a beer. And some wax for your board. And a guitar pick.

• 34:48Jocko Willink?

  Even though you play better without one.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  I already went and saw Mikey and Mark.

• 35:01Jocko Willink?

  I save you for last.

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  That's the way it is. You were the last to go.

• 35:19Jocko Willink?

  And this is the way it always ends.

• 35:25Jocko Willink?

  Here.

• 35:28Jocko Willink?

  It always ends like this.

• 35:33Jocko Willink?

  And I will end up here too.

• 35:40Jocko Willink?

  But I didn't know you'd end up here so soon.

• 35:53Jocko Willink?

  Here's your beer.

• 35:57Jocko Willink?

  I'll pour it in the grass for you.

• 36:03Jocko Willink?

  I'll put this bar of surf wax

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  on top of your gravestone.

• 36:13Jocko Willink?

  The guitar pick next to it.

• 36:27Jocko Willink?

  I read the words

• 36:31Jocko Willink?

  etched in that white granite rock.

• 36:43Jocko Willink?

  Seth A. Stone.

• 36:49Jocko Willink?

  Commander.

• 36:53Jocko Willink?

  U.S. Navy. Afghanistan, Iraq.

• 37:00Jocko Willink?

  September 17th, 1976. September 30th, 2017.

• 37:13Jocko Willink?

  Silver star with oak leaf cluster.

• 37:20Jocko Willink?

  Bronze star medal with valor.

• 37:27Jocko Willink?

  Faithful warrior.

• 37:36Jocko Willink?

  Faithful warrior.

• 37:56Jocko Willink?

  I always tell everyone to carry on.

• 38:02Jocko Willink?

  To mourn, but not to dwell.

• 38:09Jocko Willink?

  But now, I'm dwelling myself.

• 38:15Jocko Willink?

  And I know I shouldn't. You know I shouldn't.

• 38:33Jocko Willink?

  I've thought long and hard about it.

• 38:40Jocko Willink?

  And I was going to say goodbye.

• 38:50Jocko Willink?

  But I'm not gonna say it.

• 38:58Jocko Willink?

  There's no need.

• 39:03Jocko Willink?

  You're still with me.

• 39:09Jocko Willink?

  You're in the ocean, and in the sky, and in the earth beneath my feet.

• 39:23Jocko Willink?

  You're still with me.

• 39:28Jocko Willink?

  And I'm good with that.

• 39:36Jocko Willink?

  Here's one more thing you wrote.

• 39:56Jocko Willink?

  "I fought the enemy as good as I could.

• 40:02Jocko Willink?

  I lost myself, but in doing so, I found myself.

• 40:09Jocko Willink?

  It is a path.

• 40:13Jocko Willink?

  You have to work your own one out.

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  It is a struggle.

• 40:23Jocko Willink?

  I have listened to the truth.

• 40:28Jocko Willink?

  I am humbled and mystified

• 40:32Jocko Willink?

  by this life we live."

• 40:44Jocko Willink?

  That's what you said.

• 40:51Jocko Willink?

  And I will tell you this, my brother.

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  I am humbled and mystified by this life too.

• 41:07Jocko Willink?

  And I am going to keep on living it.

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  I can't stop the sunsets and I can't bring them back, but I can make them count.

• 41:28Jocko Willink?

  And that

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  is what I am going to do.

• 41:37Jocko Willink?

  I am going to keep on living.

• 41:42Jocko Willink?

  And I am going to make it

• 41:48Jocko Willink?

  count.

• 42:44Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 42:50Jocko Willink?

  Here we are.

• 42:55Jocko Willink?

  And

• 42:58Jocko Willink?

  speaking of living life

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  and trying to make it count.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  We're doing this gig here tonight.

• 43:18Jocko Willink?

  So

• 43:24Jocko Willink?

  we are live.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  We are, yeah.

• 43:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Jocko Willink?

  We generally call this a rough transition.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit, yeah, yeah.

• 44:01Jocko Willink?

  So, everyone that's here, our first live podcast. Thanks for everyone for, thanks to everyone for coming down.

• 44:16Jocko Willink?

  As I thought about what to talk about tonight,

• 44:23Jocko Willink?

  I went down into a pretty heavy subject.

• 44:35Jocko Willink?

  And

• 44:38Jocko Willink?

  you know, that's part of what this whole thing is.

• 44:47Jocko Willink?

  All the people that have reached out to me over the last few years, you know, that were able to overcome some tough situation

• 45:00Jocko Willink?

  because of the podcast.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  And it's the same with me. The same lessons that we've learned from the podcast, from books, from having people on. It's the same. We get the benefit of two. I get the benefit of that too. And

• 45:26Jocko Willink?

  here we are. Here we are. So thanks for coming. Echo Charles, thanks for pressing record.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  And stop, by the way. You gotta, it's, it's a whole, it's a whole thing.

• 45:53Jocko Willink?

  And uh, one of the main things, and one of the main reasons I wanted to do a live podcast is to actually see everyone and give a chance for you to see us and for you to see what we do and what it looks like. And this is pretty much what it looks like. Yeah. I mean, we're sitting in a small room and we press record and this is what we do. And it's great to have everyone here and to see your faces. And, and I've talked about this before. I mean, when I'm recording, I, I'm, I'm talking to you. You know, I'm talking to the people that I've heard from over the past few years. I, I know you're listening.

• 46:32Jocko Willink?

  And even from day one, I, I wanted to, when people put on their headsets, I wanted them to think like, okay, yep. This is, we're going in. This is it. Like it's on. And I don't want you to waste your time. I don't, I don't wanna wa, I don't wanna waste your time. So that's why we're doing this tonight. I thank you all for coming. Um, I also want to take advantage of the fact that you're here to do some live Q and A, which uh, is very fun for me to do. I enjoy doing it. And we did solicit questions from the ticket sales. Did I just escalate that?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:14Jocko Willink?

  We did that for ticket sales.

• 47:18Jocko Willink?

  And so we've got some of those questions here. And we'll start off with a couple of those and then we've got, you can bring the Q and A lights on. And then we're gonna, we got some folks out there, volunteers with microphones. And then once we will, we'll open it up and we're gonna, we're gonna react and, and answer some questions. And I know some of you were waiting to get a picture, wait to get some stuff signed before this started. And we'll finish this and we'll wrap up that for everybody here. So it's awesome that you all are sitting here. Appreciate you coming down. And um, let's do a little Q and A.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, alright. Yeah, it's interesting cuz usually we just sort of see the cameras. You know they're on the other side of the cameras. But you just see the, no, it's like, oh, you actually see the people. It's different, man. It's different. Alright, first question.

• 48:17Jocko Willink?

  Keen observation.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Well, you see what I'm saying? Like now I look in the cameras like, oh dang. You see what I'm saying? I'm just saying you see the people.

• 48:26Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Well, let's not blow it anymore.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Living in the mo- first question.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  We can't edit out your stuff right now.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Alright, Jaco. What impresses you the most? When you're considering to work with someone or hire them to be part of your team?

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  This is a question that I get asked all the time. Everybody wants to know who to hire and what do I look for? And obviously I look for someone that's humble and I look for someone that's balanced. And really, you know, it's one of those things where as much as you can before you hire someone, get to know them. And the advice we give people at Echelon Front all the time when they're looking to hire someone is we say, look, if you can, hire them temporarily. Bring them on as a contractor for 90 days. You have to see them in the environment that they're actually going into, they're gonna be working in, before you know what they're really gonna be like. Because just like going through, they, they screen people like crazy to go into SEAL training.

• 49:30Jocko Willink?

  And they can't tell who's gonna make it and who's not gonna make it. They just can't tell. And... You work with people in the SEAL teams and you think you know what they're gonna be like when you go into combat, but you just can't tell. You can have a decent idea, but you just can't tell. And so if you get the opportunity, or the best way to do it, is try and bring people on board in a temporary manner, so you get to know them better, and then once you know them, you can either hire them, or you can get rid of them easily. Next question.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  All right, Jaco. For a new entrepreneur, or someone new to a leadership position, who is meeting with their employees, or direct reports for the first time, what are some key things to address during that initial conversation?

• 50:18Jocko Willink?

  As soon as you meet someone that's going to be working for you, you're immediately making impressions, so we want to make a good impression. We also don't want to go, okay, it's a dichotomy, because you're immediately building a relationship with them, but you can't go overboard and be all buddy-buddy with them. That's why I followed the Hackworth model, and I actually took that to the next level. Hackworth wouldn't like laugh and joke around with the troops for six weeks. I up that to eight weeks, because I'm a little bit more hardcore.

• 50:53Jocko Willink?

  So, but one thing that's good out of the gate is, put out some brief, general guidelines, like some of the most broad guidance that you can possibly give, which is, hey, look, here's what's important to me, we're gonna do a great job, we're gonna work hard, and this is our mission, and this is what we're gonna focus on. And that's it. You don't need to come out of the gate trying to show everyone that you're the man. You don't need to do that. Guess what? You're the boss. You actually, de facto, are the man. So, don't run around and try and prove yourself out of the gate. Get to know them, let that relationship build over time, and that's where you're gonna end up in the best situation.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Makes sense. You sort of did that to me even as friends. Like this. Like here, here. Good to meet you, here's you. Good to meet you. Eight weeks, just like that. Next question.

• 51:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's funny too, because now when I meet people, like, tonight, I'm all nice to everyone now.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you changed, bruh, you changed, yeah.

• 52:01Jocko Willink?

  But if I was gonna be like getting in the game with them, and somehow...

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 52:06Jocko Willink?

  Cold-blooded.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, fuck, that eight-week probationary Jaco, period. Who are some of the well-known leaders today, who you believe best exemplify extreme ownership, be it in politics, military, or business?

• 52:23Jocko Willink?

  Military, you know, obviously, I like Mattis a lot. Matter of fact, I like Mattis. Yeah, thank you.

• 52:32Jocko Willink?

  I, General Kelly, same thing. Yep, and McMaster, same thing. All those guys are awesome. Colonel McFarlane, or General McFarlane, who just retired, who I worked with before in Ramadi, who is awesome. So, there's a lot of really good military examples. The business examples, there's a Mulali, who turned around Ford. There's a great book called "American Icon", and it's a great leadership book. I actually was gonna cover it, but I never did, because it's hard to cover books about business compared to books about combat. But it's a really good book, "American Icon", great ownership, great attitude. And politics, this was a super hard one, but then I just thought, oh, Dan Crenshaw. What up?

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  And, and really, just the way Dan, since he's taking position, like, he's just doing a great job. It's very, very cool to see. So, yeah, there you go. What else?

• 53:33Jocko Willink?

  Go to four.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Hi Jaco and Echo. I recently read the book "Marine: The Life of Chesty Puller", and in the book Chesty references the unnecessary loads of administrative paperwork.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  That was required to be prepared for the military. I also recently remember on a recent podcast, you recalling a situation in Ramadi, where your platoon leaders were not thrilled to fill out required paperwork. I'm a squad sergeant in a prominent American police department, and I'm experiencing the same dilemma. The micromanaging and oversight is extreme, and it's taken a toll on the morale of the officers citywide. The tedious paperwork and constant micromanaging is preventing good cops from being proactive. I feel like "the job", has changed beyond recognition. I'd appreciate your advice on how to approach the bullshit paperwork

• 54:31Speaker 01

  and increase the morale of my cops. Thank you for your time.

• 54:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so what would I do in this situation? First of all, I am going to be awesome at the paperwork. I'm gonna do it so well that... Because if you blow off the paperwork, then you go to your boss and say, "The paperwork sucks and it's not any good." The guy looks at you and says, "Oh, you know what? You don't even know how to do the paperwork." How do you know if it's hard or not? So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do... I'm gonna start building a case. That's what I'm gonna do. So I'm gonna do the paperwork. I'm actually gonna log down how many hours I put into the paperwork. I'm gonna follow that paperwork and see where it goes, and see if anyone actually reads it. Right? Because if I can go to my boss and say, "Hey, I spent 28 hours a week filing this paperwork,

• 55:20Jocko Willink?

  and no, not one single person read it." And then you take the manpower of everyone in the department. And then what you do is you actually build a case. When you go in to talk to the boss, you should have a full magazine of ammunition to combat this paperwork that you're being forced to do. You have to be able to explain it to them in a rational, logical manner. And you can't... You can't make any headway against your boss if you are trying to fight from the low ground. The low ground is, "Well, I don't really turn in the paperwork and I don't really do the paperwork and I think the paperwork is crap." Then they're looking down on you, "What are you talking about? How dare you say that? You don't even do it. You don't even know what you're doing."

• 56:04Jocko Willink?

  You gotta get on the high ground. How do you get on the high ground? You get all that stuff done to the best of your ability, you log down the hours it takes, you get your whole little team doing it, and you tell your whole team, "Hey, look, I know this is painful right now. Everyone in this squad, everyone in this platoon is gonna do all this, we're gonna log down what it takes because I am gonna bring a solid case up the chain of command of where we need to limit this paperwork." This is a long war situation. You know how long it took to build up all that paperwork? It took years. It took 20 years, 30 years for that to happen. I used to joke about the Marine, the Navy and the SEAL teams, the range, our range procedures are super loose.

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  We go out there and we shoot like crazy and do all kinds of really dynamic things and we'd sometimes go to a Marine Corps range and it was like everything was super tight. And I would tell my guys, I'd say, "Look, that's because that happened over years. One mistake happens, how do you stop that mistake from happening again? Put a rule in place that stops it. Another mistakes happen, another mistake happens, put another rule in place. Another mistake happens, put a piece of paper to stop it from happening again." And eventually, you end up with a range that's barely even usable. So that's what happened in this department. There was little things that happened over time and they build and they build upon themselves and the next thing you know, you can't even recognize what your actual job was. So we have to, so that took 20 years to happen.

• 57:29Jocko Willink?

  You're not gonna undo it overnight. And you're definitely not gonna undo it from the low ground. You have to get to high ground. You have to be a performer. If you're not a performer, you have no say. Do your job, do it well, fight the long war.

• 57:56Jocko Willink?

  I'm all of a sudden thinking, like, maybe we need one of those little applause tracks.

• 58:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, when I answer a question.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, when it's good, man, it's good.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Alright, next question.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  What book has had the biggest impact on you and is a must-read?

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, About Face, Hackworth, thanks for coming. Welcome to the club.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Alright, good one.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Okay, next question. Good morning.

• 58:37Jocko Willink?

  Was that like a rock and roll band just lets the crowd sing the chorus?

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. If you did not join the military, what do you think you'd be doing right now?

• 58:51Jocko Willink?

  I think I would have ended up either in the police department or a firefighter. That's what I think I would have done. If I couldn't have gotten into the military, that's probably what I would end up doing.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Why?

• 59:04Jocko Willink?

  Just because I had the urge to serve and do something physical and do something where I'm helping protect people. I think that's why. So, I know there's a lot of cops and firefighters here, so thanks for what you do.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  What is the relationship between humility and vulnerability?

• 59:46Jocko Willink?

  The relationship between humility and vulnerability. Okay, interesting. And there's an interesting dynamic that you get going on when you're humble. Okay, so let's think about what happens. When you're humble, you expose your vulnerabilities. But what's cool is, when you expose your vulnerabilities, they become less vulnerable.

• 1:00:16Jocko Willink?

  Makes sense. So that's why being humble is a win. Yeah. Because if I'm taking over a position and I don't know how to do one of the jobs, if I hide it, it's haunting me. And it's a weakness, because as soon as it gets exposed, I'm gonna look like, you know, weak and a loser. But if I have a vulnerability and I'm humble enough to expose my vulnerability and say, "Hey, you know what, guys? I haven't actually done this before. My old unit, we didn't ever did this, and I don't know how to do it. Can I get some help here?" There, I'm being humble, I'm exposing my vulnerability, and all of a sudden, it's not a vulnerability anymore because my team actually knows it. And guess what then?

• 1:00:57Jocko Willink?

  I get to practice and learn about the thing that was making me vulnerable. So, making yourself vulnerable is fine, and if you wanna kill your vulnerabilities, you have to be humble enough to expose them voluntarily. Voluntarily exposing your vulnerabilities is infinitely better than hiding them and letting them be uncovered by the...

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  You know? In the SEAL teams, that's what it is. It's animals. Like everyone else in your platoon, if you have a vulnerability and you hide it, and then they get it?

• 1:01:40Jocko Willink?

  Like, they're coming at you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With daggers, with knives, and they're gonna... So, if you say, "Hey, this is the situation." Expose those vulnerabilities. Be humble enough to do that, you'll be in a much better position.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it seems like the leader... Like, if you're the boss and you're trying to make like, "Oh yeah, I know everything." And then, like I said, they find it, you look way more stupid. Like, in the beginning, it feels like you looks more stupid in the beginning, I would think, anyway. Like, "Oh, I'm the boss, supposed to know all this stuff."

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I think the key point of that is, "Way more stupid."

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. You don't wanna look like that. I don't think so, anyway. Anyway. Alright, I'm gonna go back to this other one. Three dinner guests, living or dead, and why?

• 1:02:33Jocko Willink?

  Three dinner guests, living or dead?

• 1:02:38Jocko Willink?

  Mark Lee, Mike Monsoir, Ryan Jobe.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  How did you get the nickname "Jocko"?

• 1:02:58Jocko Willink?

  I answered this on Facebook Live.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Not fully, though.

• 1:03:01Jocko Willink?

  No, fully. Anyways, before I was born, my dad wanted me to be a jock. My dad's name is John. My dad's nickname is "John-O." My dad wanted me to be a jock. My mom calls my dad "John-O." My dad said, "I hope he's a jock." My mom said, "A jock-o."

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  I don't thi... yeah, I don't think you said that whole thing.

• 1:03:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, that's the deal. And then, actually, when I said that, my mom said, "Actually, my dad was nicknamed John-O, not by her, but by his family, because he was named after his uncle, whose name was John Oglethorpe, or something like that."

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:03:45Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, it goes deep.

• 1:03:48Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Question for Jaco. Do you teach your wife about being strategic? And how open is she to...

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  How open is she to having her husband be her teacher?

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  That's a good one. That's a...

• 1:04:09Jocko Willink?

  That's a good one for who?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  For...

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  For ruining my life?

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  It's a good one for me, for sure.

• 1:04:16Jocko Willink?

  Uh... Okay.

• 1:04:30Jocko Willink?

  First of all, let's assess this. How many people, just people, we're not even talking spouses, how many people are just super open to being taught? Like if I was like, "Let me teach you a little something here."

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:46Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Like, that already starts off on a bad footing because it implies that I know something you don't know. I can help you.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:52Jocko Willink?

  You're inferior to me. You lack the supreme knowledge that I have.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Clearly, I must instruct you in strategic ways, right?

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Yep, fully.

• 1:05:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, and if that's not offensive to someone, it is offensive to my wife.

• 1:05:13Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so, do I sit around and, you know, try and teach my wi... You know, here's the deal. Here's the deal. When we're dealing with our kids, I absolutely do this, now that I think about it. You know, I'll say to my wife, "Hey, listen. Oh, the boy's doing this? And you're trying to do this? Don't do that. All you're doing is, you know, it's... Oh, he wants to get all crazy? Cool, do this. You're trying to combat..." I used to tell her this when the kids were really small because she's super nice and concerned and wants to make things right and wants to win arguments.

• 1:05:58Jocko Willink?

  Which, when you're trying to win a logical argument with a four-year-old, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. And I say, "Look, you're arguing logic with a four-year-old." So, I think there's an appropriate time to do it. You have to be careful that you're not trying to, you know, be the superior human with, "Oh, Mr. Strategy, you want to teach me something about kids?"

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:19Jocko Willink?

  So, take it easy. And all that being said, I do have strategic conversations with my wife about the family team, right? Like, we're a business. Like, your house and your family is a business. You have income, you have expenditures, you have long-term strategic goals. So, those kind of things we talk about. And, you know, I'm the one that sort of is usually saying, "Hey, what about this strategic goal? What are you doing over here? What do you want to do with that?" So, we have those conversations, but not so much me saying how, but me, you know, us figuring out where we're going together.

• 1:06:58Jocko Willink?

  Live.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Does she ever, like, teach you how to be strategic in any way? Like, be more sensitive or anything like that? For real?

• 1:07:11Jocko Willink?

  Bro, are you serious?

• 1:07:15Jocko Willink?

  No, actually, the cool thing about my wife is she knows me really well and accepts this whole deal. She accepts the shortfalls. She knows that she got what she got. And she rolled the dice. Hey, sorry.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Alright, there you go.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Next question. Can you share how someone that is introverted and has social anxiety can become a leader?

• 1:07:46Jocko Willink?

  I mean, first of all, if you've got social anxiety, you need to go through that exposure therapy, which is what I wrote about in Way of the Warrior Kid that I didn't know I was writing about. I didn't know it was an actual psychological methodology until Jordan Peterson was explaining to me that, "Well, what you do with someone in this situation is you give them small exposure." I was like, "Oh, that's what happens in Way of the Warrior Kid."

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:09Jocko Willink?

  "I'm smarter than I thought." So, you can do the same thing with this social anxiety. You know, you start talking in front of small groups, you grow, you get out and hang out with people, and you continue to do that until you get more comfortable. So, you can, you can sort of overcome that. And it's the same thing with being introverted. Now, there...

• 1:08:28Jocko Willink?

  There are leaders that are more introverted. But what you have to do is you have to bring people onto your team to complement that area where you're a little bit weak. So if, if you're a leader, guess what you have to do? You have to communicate to other human beings. And sometimes you have to communicate to other human beings in large groups. That's what happens. That's what a leader does. Sure, sometimes it can be on the phone, sometimes it can be on the email, sometimes it can be in radio, over the radio. But there's times where you're gonna have to communicate to the people that you're leading. So if you're super introverted and uncomfortable with that, and it's a challenge, you're gonna have to overcome that challenge.

• 1:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you can get better at it through practice. But some people are not gonna ever get a really comfortable, some people are never gonna get really comfortable talking in front of a group. And so what, what you do in that situation is you bring someone in your team that is really good at it. And then, when it's time to address the troops, you, you know, you as the leader stand up and say, here's the two things I'm worried about on this operation. Here's where we're heading. And now Bill's gonna brief you on the details of the plan.

• 1:09:50Jocko Willink?

  And that's fine, because Bill's a loud mouth and Bill's gonna get up there and communicate really clearly, and that's gonna be great. And you still gave enough as the figurehead and as the leader of the organization that people go, okay, yep, we heard from Jaco, you know, he put out the word, he didn't say much, doesn't even seem like he has to, we, we hear where he's coming from. So you just have to build a team that's gonna complement your weaknesses. And, you know, generally, if you're introverted, well, that means you're good at some other thing that that loud mouth isn't good at. Right? The loud mouth is like, whoops, go in the front door, kick it down. And he doesn't have any sort of...

• 1:10:27Jocko Willink?

  Tactical sense of how to run an operation smoothly. So you come up with a good plan and then you brief it to Bill. Loud mouth Bill and then you say, Bill, we're going to brief the troops and then you make it happen. So you have to do a little bit of both. You have to improve your personal skills, which you can do through exposure and practice. Don't get up and talk about things that you don't know. Get up and talk about things that you do know and that you are comfortable with and you practice. And while you're practicing, while you're getting better at that, you also build a team where you complement your own weaknesses. And we all have leadership weaknesses and you've got to build teams that can complement that.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Agree.

• 1:11:13Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  How can one guide or lead a leader above you, especially when you're many links away on the chain of command? Or many links what down the chain of command?

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you want to guide a leader? That's far away from you in the chain of command?

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Jocko Willink?

  You got to build a relationship with that person. That's what you got to do. In fact,

• 1:11:48Jocko Willink?

  leadership is about building trust and building relationships with people and trust is leadership and leadership is trust. And relationships are trust and relationships are leadership. These are like the trifecta of becoming a good leader. You build trust with people, you build relationships. And in a situation like this, if I have no, if you and I don't know each other very well. And I come up to you and say, hey, I think you should do this. I mean, what's your reaction? Right? If you just approach someone that you don't have a relationship with and then you start telling them how to run things. That's offensive. That's offensive to like most human beings. I have to, I have to get to know you. I have to see what kind of approach is going to work for you. Cause you might be the kind of person, if I know you a little bit, where you're like, you know, I'm really working on my leadership.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  What do you think I could do better? That's great. Then we open the door and we can move forward. You might be the kind of person that I have to flank. You might be the kind of person that you won't listen to me, but I say, oh, you should check out this book that I read. Or whatever, there's ways to do it, but to look at a target.

• 1:12:51Jocko Willink?

  And know how you're going to attack the target without knowing anything about it, without having any intelligence on it, that's not going to be effective. So we have to actually gather some intelligence about the target. We have to, and the way we do that is by building a relationship with them, by getting to know that person. Once you know the person, then you can start to infuse and shift and mold and sculpt and influence the way that they lead. You have to build that relationship to kick things off.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Next question. I'm not in the military, nor am I a firefighter or law enforcement. I'm an air traffic controller here in the New York area. And I found myself in several leadership positions within our union. Since I read Extreme Ownership, I've tried to implement this and the ideals that come with it. Overall, I believe it's been a success and of course, still a work in progress. Specifically, the communication aspect of ensuring our people know why we are doing something and how it affects them, has been the biggest influence and game changer, in my opinion. Unions typically come hand in hand with "what about me?" attitudes.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  And we definitely have that within our ranks. This is something I've been trying to tackle with both new air controllers, new controllers and older ones, and I think I'm making headway slowly but surely. Thanks to you and Leif. My question is this, have you ever had direct experience dealing with unions and this particular mindset? Is there any advice you have specific to labor unions that could make this more efficient?

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, we work with businesses all the time, and we certainly work with businesses that are involved with, or that either are unionized or partially unionized. And yeah, this is something that can be very, very common. And the reason it can become very, very common is because the union...

• 1:14:57Jocko Willink?

  Is is an organization, right? And the company, the the corporate, the headquarters is a separate organization. And so what happens is, as we let these two elements grow, they they tend to grow apart. And they tend to start looking out for themselves. And that becomes problematic. It becomes problematic in any organization where you've got the union on one side. And what the union starts looking out for is what's good for them. And what corporate is looking out for, what headquarters looking out for is what's good for them. And what happens is we stop talking to each other and we and what we fail to realize is that

• 1:15:43Jocko Willink?

  both those entities have a common goal. They have a common goal. And the the more we work together to achieve that common goal, the better off both entities will be. So what this boils down to and the where I would focus, step number one, and this, this is a long fight. This is a long war, is trying to make sure that the union side, because you're you're talking about from your position in the union, the union side understands how working with corporate headquarters, how working with them

• 1:16:26Jocko Willink?

  will benefit the individuals in the union in the long run. So and a great book to read about this is is that book I I mentioned earlier with Mulally, American Icon. And and what he, you know, what he told the unions was, hey, listen, I get it. You want your hourly wage to be seventy six dollars an hour. You want to take care of the union. That's awesome. Let me tell you what's going to happen in eighteen months if we keep paying that. We're not going to have a company anymore. Here's the numbers. Here's how it's going to work. And they lowered down their hourly rate to fifty five dollars an hour. That's a huge cut. And you can imagine the union thinking, no, that's we lost. We lost.

• 1:17:11Jocko Willink?

  But Mulally did a great job of saying, "No. We lose if we don't come together. We lose if we don't try and achieve our actual mission, the mission that we're all focused on, which is making great cars and being a profitable company." So same thing here. Make sure that the areas that overlap the common mission, make sure that everyone understands how achieving the common mission benefits both parties.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  That's it.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Makes sense. Next question.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  I've been a police officer for-

• 1:17:53Jocko Willink?

  You guys wrote some long questions for Echo Charles to read.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  Well, I'm trying.

• 1:17:57Jocko Willink?

  He's been studying them for four hours.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Yep. "I've been a police officer for about four years. I consider myself to be proactive and try to get after it every day, much like many of my brother and sister law enforcement officers. Recently, I switched to a bigger agency with a bit of a different mission. I still try to be as proactive and as thorough as I can in everything that I do. But I've noticed that many of the frontline supervisors in this agency want officers to be reactive rather than proactive. The supervisor in particular has told me to stop working so hard and get salty,

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  suggesting that I lower my morale. The question is, how do I build a relationship with these supervisors while still being proactive and working hard?"

• 1:18:50Jocko Willink?

  So, this is what I did when I got to SEAL Team One. I was this guy right here. I was fired up. I was, "Hey, oh, we're doing an obstacle course today? Cool, I'm gonna wear my rucksack with a 40-pound sandbag in it." And all the guys that were older were, you know, looking at me like, "Dude, pump the brakes."

• 1:19:19Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, of course, what did I think? Those guys are hardcore. Those guys are weak. That's what I was thinking. And then, you know, I thought to myself, okay.

• 1:19:33Jocko Willink?

  How can I, how can I have influence over them? How can I have influence over the platoon that I'm in? Can I have influence over the platoon that I'm in? If everyone that's in my platoon doesn't like me?

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:19:50Jocko Willink?

  Can you? If everyone in my platoon doesn't like me because I'm super hardcore?

• 1:19:58Jocko Willink?

  Then are they gonna steer it all in my direction?

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  The answer is no. The answer is no. In fact, they're gonna isolate me. In fact, I'm gonna have no influence over my platoon. And that's, that's a horrible thing. So, what did I do? Did I just go, okay, cool, it looks like Donuts is the deal? No, I didn't do that at all. But, I conformed. Right, I conformed. And people think, oh, that's weak. You shouldn't conform. Look, you are not the priority. You, as an individual, are not the priority in a SEAL platoon. You're not. The, the priority is the platoon.

• 1:20:47Jocko Willink?

  The priority is the mission. And if we're gonna execute a mission, we need to be very tight as a team. So if I put my personality above the unity of the team, I'm hurting our capability of accomplishing the mission. Especially if I realize that guys need to train a little bit harder, and instead of actually doing something that's gonna move them in that direction, they reject me, and now I'm outside the, the brotherhood, the circle. And, and now, I haven't moved them in any right direction at all. So now there's one guy that's in really good shape, me, and everyone else is going in the other direction. And I have no influence over them.

• 1:21:33Jocko Willink?

  That, that's just terrible.

• 1:21:37Jocko Willink?

  The mission is the most important thing. In order to most effectively execute the mission, we have to have the best possible team. In order to have the best possible team, we have to have trust and relationships inside the team. If I violate that, I'm taking away from the team. I'm taking away from our mission capability. Now, of course, if there's someone that's grossly out of shape or out of standards, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and tighten that person up. But again, if someone's completely out of standards and all I do is attack them, what's their reaction? It's, it's to, to step away from me, to reject me. But if I, if I say, "Hey, man, you know,

• 1:22:21Jocko Willink?

  I know you've got a lot of experience and, you know, I'm, I'm 19 and so I'm, I just got a buzz, so I'm in pretty good shape." But like, "Can, can, can you teach me some of the tactics that you know?" And all of a sudden, I'm building a relationship with them. And then I say, "Hey, do, do you wanna go for a little, a little jog with me after work?" And, you know, that guy's done eight deployments and he's tired and he's old, but he wants to be back in shape because we all wanna be in shape. And he goes, "Okay, a short one." And we're moving in the right direction. So, that's what you need to do. You have to, you have to back off a little bit. You have to find balance.

• 1:23:04Jocko Willink?

  And you have to focus on the team. And it's better to have the whole team, it's better to have 20 people that move a little bit in the right direction than have one person by themselves that's going in the right direction and everyone else is going in the wrong direction. So, that's what you need to do. Take the sandbag out of your rucksack a little bit. And, you know, I ran with jungle boots on. I did all this stuff. And it didn't take me very long to realize I was not doing the right thing, not making my team stronger. I was isolating myself and stopped it.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  So, this guy, he should like, what? Start acting just a little bit salty? Or, you know, or, you know. Lower his morale appearance a little bit, like to kind of fit in, so to speak.

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, do. You want to be part of the team.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00Jocko Willink?

  If you're not part of the team, you don't have any influence. If you don't have any influence, you can't move the team in the right direction. If you can't move the team in the right direction, the team is less mission capable. That's what you're there for.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  Is to make the team more mission capable. Every moment that you don't do that, you're, you're doing something wrong.

• 1:24:23Jocko Willink?

  So, yes, you don't have to show up. I mean, just imagine, I was a new guy at SEAL Team One. People, we show up to run the O course. The O course is, the obstacle course is a really hard obstacle course. And I show up with a rucksack on with a 40-pound sandbag in it. As a new guy.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, of course, a couple of people are like, "Oh, that's fired up." But people were like, "Okay."

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Ooh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:48Jocko Willink?

  "Oh, you're, oh, you're, you're 19 years old and you just got out of BUDs."

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:53Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 1:24:55Jocko Willink?

  "We don't like you."

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:58Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  It's kind of like steering like a big van, right? You can't just start making big turns with a big, otherwise the thing's gonna, gonna tip over a little bit. See what I'm saying? No, you gotta like, you can't, if the, you gotta, you gotta go slow is what I'm saying.

• 1:25:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  You guys understand.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Anyway, next question.

• 1:25:21Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 1:25:28Jocko Willink?

  Apparently, apparently the van thing was a hit.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was correct, that's why.

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  Some of you that didn't understand it until we understood, it's like a van.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  It was correct, yes, exactly, same thing.

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Anyway. "My wife and I have four young boys ages, between ages three and seven. We're both running successful, busy careers. My question is, how do you forge a meaningful, connected relationship that instills discipline and leadership with your kids while balancing today's demanding 24/7 corporate environment?"

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  Here's a couple of things, make time, you have to make time.

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  You have to make time where you're not looking at your phone, you're not looking at your emails. You have to set a good example and, and I think the most important thing here for kids aged three to seven, you have to make sure that they understand that what you're, what you're doing and why you're doing it. They have to understand, "Look, you know this house we live in? We, we have to pay money for this house that we live in. You know the food that we eat, we have to pay money for that. And in order for us to have a secure future where we can still have a house and we can still have food, we need to make sure that we have money for the future. That's why mom and dad work so hard. It doesn't mean that we wouldn't love to sit around and, and play with you guys all day.

• 1:26:49Jocko Willink?

  We would love to do that and every chance we get, we're gonna do it. But we have to be able to pay for the things we have and we have to be able to pay for our future. And that's why we're working so hard right now, so we can have more freedom and more time with you in the future. So they have to understand why you're doing what you're doing and I'll add this.

• 1:27:11Jocko Willink?

  So do you. So do you.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  You have to assess why you are working so much that you're taking time away from your family. If you're working so much and taking time away from your family so that you can get the Mercedes S-Class instead of the Lexus, ask yourself, is that why you're doing it? And what has more value? The S-Class?

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  Or the dance recital?

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  Keep yourself in check.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense too. And you kinda gotta tell the truth to yourself. Cause you know how like you could answer the email later or at another time, not dinner time or whatever, you know? But you kinda gotta be truthful. That's what I've found anyway helps.

• 1:28:09Jocko Willink?

  That's why you don't return my emails on time.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Was there a time during your service in the teams that stood out above the rest? And would you mind sharing a brief story not before heard on your podcast?

• 1:28:26Jocko Willink?

  Well, obviously, the time in the teams was being in Task Unit Bruiser, being in the Battle of Ramadi. That's pretty straightforward.

• 1:28:33Jocko Willink?

  Something that I haven't, I don't think I've talked about on the podcast, but it it definitely is something that I remember very clearly. And that is when, when SEAL Team Five came in to take over for us. And so, this was in October of 2006. And SEAL Team Five, a task unit from SEAL Team Five, came in to take over for us. And we're doing the turnover with them, meaning we're explaining to them the battle space. And it takes a couple of days for all of them to arrive. They arrive in bits and pieces. And so, we're doing the turnover.

• 1:29:19Jocko Willink?

  But, once they were all there,

• 1:29:24Jocko Willink?

  I did a turnover brief with them, the whole group. And, as a matter of fact, Marcus Luttrell was in this group. And this was after he had gone through what he'd gone through. And, you know, I just saw Marcus the other day and we were talking about this. I couldn't believe he was in Ramadi. After what he'd went through, and this was not long after. There he was, in Ramadi, as a platoon-leading petty officer. And

• 1:29:57Jocko Willink?

  it was his group of guys. And I remember, one thing I just, I just remember was looking at them. And I was telling them,

• 1:30:08Jocko Willink?

  "You are going to take casualties."

• 1:30:13Jocko Willink?

  And...

• 1:30:15Jocko Willink?

  That it's sort of like that thing you see in the movies or I've talked about it, read it in books about Vietnam where you had guys that were coming in country and they got new camouflage uniforms on and they're all clean cut and there's the guys that are getting ready to go home.

• 1:30:35Jocko Willink?

  And those guys at that time SEALs deploying into a situation, SEALs deploying to situations that are kind of unknown. At least up until this point, it was like, okay, well, we're going, we're going to do missions, we don't know how bad it's going to be, it might be bad, it might not be, that sort of was the standard. Those guys that were coming into Ramadi, that relieved us in Ramadi, they knew, and the senior enlisted guys are one of my very good friends, those guys knew 100%, they went to Mike Montessor's funeral and then got on a plane and came over, they knew 100%. And so for me, I won't forget looking at this group of guys that were about to start

• 1:31:15Jocko Willink?

  a six-month deployment and telling them, you are going to take casualties. And that was just a blunt, honest truth and they did take casualties, they didn't lose anyone, they had no one killed, but they took some very, very severe casualties and did a great job, great group of guys, but that was a harsh reality to walk into for sure.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Roger. I'll do one more of these questions before the live questions.

• 1:31:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, then we'll go live.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  People.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  What was your first combat mission and what was your role?

• 1:32:00Jocko Willink?

  So 2003, I deployed to Baghdad as a SEAL platoon commander and the senior enlisted guy of my task unit was already in Baghdad, waiting for us. And this guy is an incredible guy, just, as a matter of fact, his wife tells him and me that we're soulmates.

• 1:32:30Jocko Willink?

  She's jealous.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  But anyways, this guy, just an incredible guy. But he had been on the ground for a while. And he'd done the push-up into Baghdad with the Marines. And then he'd come home, and then he was back over. And so he was waiting for us. And it was my platoon, we show up. And I remember we hit the ground. I don't even know how long we'd been there for, but it wasn't long. It might have been like the night we got there. And there was mortar teams that were mortar-ing our base. And they had been for a few days. And so, this guy, a couple mortars went, I think... Anyways, whatever happened, he comes in like,

• 1:33:17Jocko Willink?

  "You're taking your guys out right now. You gotta take your guys out and go and see if you can find where these things launched from." And I was... I was sort of not ready for that. "You know, we'd been there for four hours. You're taking your guys out." And I'm, you know what I said? Roger that. And, you know, I talked to him later. Like, later that night. He goes, "Yeah, I was just trying to get you outside the wire and get some." And I was like, "How about you give me a heads-up next time?" So, that was it. I was just running that little vehicle thing. And we went out, looked for bad guys. We didn't find any and came home. But that was the first kind of exposure outside the wire in Baghdad. Not a very exciting story.

• 1:34:01Jocko Willink?

  Sorry. There we go. All right, so we got some folks running around with microphones. And, does anyone have any questions? Okay, see a couple hands anyways. I'm gonna take this thing off so I can sort of move around and see you and our mic people. I'll point to you and we'll find somebody. All right, let's go. You, right there, black sweatshirt.

• 1:34:27Speaker 03

  I was just trying to get him to call on me, but he wouldn't wait until he took your order. So, you got a good team here. So you were talking about child rearing before.

• 1:34:39Jocko Willink?

  Not me personally, but...

• 1:34:41Speaker 03

  No, you had to. You were cornered. Any thoughts about having a child rearing book come out? Like a teen child rearing book?

• 1:34:52Jocko Willink?

  You mean How to Raise Kids?

• 1:34:54Speaker 03

  Well, yeah. Child rearing.

• 1:34:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, I mean...

• 1:35:01Speaker 03

  Maybe not. Maybe this is a bad idea.

• 1:35:03Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no. I'll tell you what. There, I wrote a couple of books. One's called Way of the Warrior Kid. And one's called Mark's Mission.

• 1:35:10Speaker 03

  I read them.

• 1:35:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah. I mean, the the amount of people that have come back to me and said, like, "As a dad, as a mom, thank you for writing this book, because every time I read it, I learn." Now, that means that I'm basically saying, "Hey, you need to learn, you need to pull, parse the lessons out of here." So, perhaps, I could be more straightforward. And also, hey, I'm no perfect parent by any stretch. But one thing that's good about putting the ideas on paper is I would start to clarify things myself. And you start looking, I would start looking at mistakes that I made and say, "Okay, here's a clear mistake.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  I didn't really recognize it before, but now that I'm detached, I'm looking back at it." So, yeah. Not a bad idea.

• 1:36:01Speaker 03

  Yep. Finances, everything. Just how to discuss with your kids. Like, all of these things are really important topics. And I think the extreme ownership perspective could be a great addition.

• 1:36:11Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  Thank you. I'll buy it.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  Question over here. You.

• 1:36:20Jocko Willink?

  He's reading it.

• 1:36:22Speaker 04

  I like to come prepared. Good evening, Jaco.

• 1:36:26Jocko Willink?

  Good evening.

• 1:36:30Speaker 04

  What lesson do you wish you'd have learnt earlier in life that you now know?

• 1:36:41Jocko Willink?

  It is discipline equals freedom. I mean, that is the thing that, that when I connected that together in my head, that the fact that that applies to absolutely everything, that's the biggest lesson that I wish I would have learned earlier in life. And if I would have figured that out, then I would have been doing a lot better, and I would have done a lot better, and I would have been a lot better of a person. The thing that I try to tell kids, I try and tell them that, for sure. But the other thing that I think kids miss is kids, and this is something that I completely missed as a kid. The actions that you take now affect your future.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  That sounds so obvious, but when you're 14, you just think, no, nothing, you know, my life is only another 20 minutes. So what I'm doing right now doesn't really matter. So when I talk to kids, I try and explain to them that discipline equals freedom, and then I try to explain to them that what you're doing right now really will have an impact to where you are in the future. And I don't know if you listened to that podcast that I did, the Warrior Kid Podcast that I did, number 19, about my friend Jeff. And I talked about it on the Adult Podcast as well, but you know, it's a classic story. I had a best friend when I was little, and we separated friendship.

• 1:38:07Jocko Willink?

  Not, we were still friends, but we drifted apart. He started getting into partying, getting into drugs and all that, and I didn't. And his trajectory in life just went down. And I joined the Navy, which was great, and it put me on a good path, almost involuntarily. But he ended up, he ended up killing himself. And, you know, it was drugs, and it was alcohol, and it was just bad. But while I was going through BUDs, he killed himself. And what I tried to explain to the kids on the Warrior Kid Podcast is like, the decisions that, the little decisions that you make, they matter. They add up. And you have to connect those dots, otherwise you don't know where you're gonna end up. And it might be bad.

• 1:38:52Jocko Willink?

  Cool. You got your hand up quick, bro. Good job.

• 1:38:57Speaker 05

  How you doing? How you doing, Jaco? So first, I want to say thank you for being here and continuing to inspire us all. I really appreciate it. So, little backstory, I'm currently a detective in a police department in New Jersey. And sitting number one on the sergeant's list. Looking to get promoted about March or April. So, my question is, I'm gonna be the youngest sergeant in the department. And not with a lot of experience. Now, I've never had an issue in the department. Doing pretty well. And as soon as that list came out, and I was number one, the tension just rose. Look at this kid, less than five years on the job, you know, in his twenties.

• 1:39:39Speaker 05

  And they already want to see me fail before I even got to the position. So I'm trying immensely to prepare myself

• 1:39:47Speaker 05

  in that role, when I already know that it's coming against me. So what's your best advice for someone that is gonna be, you know, in this position of... See, I always look at every position as a leadership position. But now, structurally, I'm gonna be their supervisor. So what's your best advice to, to me, going into that situation?

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and this is the same exact situation that military officers get put into. Military officers, in the SEAL teams, in the Marine Corps, in the Army, in the Navy. You're a kid that comes out of college. You have zero experience, and you get put in charge of a department on a ship, or you get put in charge of a platoon. And all of a sudden, you're a guy with zero experience, and you got a platoon chief that's been in for 16 years. That's, that's the way it works. And so, I've had to have this conversation over and over again. And what we're gonna do, is, number one, we're not gonna act like we know everything. Even if you do know more, even if you have things more figured out than these guys, if you go in there and act like it, guess what they're gonna do? They're gonna reject you.

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Who is this young whippersnapper, young buck thinks he knows everything? He doesn't know about this, he doesn't know about that, they'll sabotage you to make you look bad. But if you go in there and you're humble, I'm not talking about being a pushover. I'm not talking about being weak, but I'm gonna lean towards being humble. I'm gonna lean towards listening to what they have to say. I'm gonna lean towards saying, "Hey, you know, I've never handled a case like this before. Do you have any perspective? You could help me out with this?" Instead of, "Hey, this case is mine. Let me show you how it's gonna be." That right there, you're taking a relationship in a negative direction. "We wanna, we wanna, we wanna build a team, and we want them to, we wanna get their respect." How do you, how do we get their respect? We get, we actually get respect, as crazy as it sounds, we get respect by, by being humble.

• 1:41:37Jocko Willink?

  So if, if, if Echo, if Echo's working for me, I show up, he's more experienced than me, and I show up and I say, "All right, here's what we're doing, here's how we're doing this mission, here's how it's gonna be, my way."

• 1:41:49Jocko Willink?

  And I think, "He knows what's up now. He knows, he sees I'm the boss." What's he actually thinking? Who's this idiot? That's had the job for three days, and he thinks he's gonna tell me what to do? And he's gonna, he's gonna resist it, he's gonna sabotage, he's gonna, and, and we're gonna have a bad relationship. But if I come in and say, "Hey, Echo, really great to meet you. You know, I'm just checking in here. I was looking at your, I was checking out your, your record. You've been here for a long time, man. You've really nailed some big cases. That's awesome. I'm looking forward to working with you. I'm looking forward to learning a lot from you."

• 1:42:25Jocko Willink?

  And boom. What's his attitude towards me now? "Hey, this kid's pretty humble." Again, I'm not coming in saying, "I don't know anything. Can you please, you know, show me the way, oh, master?" No, I'm not talking about that. But just a nice, respectful, humble way of treating people. Study, show up earlier than they do, know the nomenclature that you're supposed to know. Ask good questions, listen to the feedback. And here, I've talked about this on the podcast, if he comes up with a plan, and I think I have a better plan, but he's got a plan that's, that's pretty solid, whose plan am I gonna pick? I'm gonna pick his plan. I'm not gonna force my plan down his throat. It makes our relationship go backwards.

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  It makes him think that he needs to compete with me. I don't want him to go, "Hey, Echo, this is your plan. You come up with it. You, you make it happen." Echo always jokes to me, he's like, "I know you do this stuff to me."

• 1:43:20Jocko Willink?

  And he's like, "And it still works." And I do, you know, I do. It's like, hey, if he can come up with a plan, I would rather we execute his plan because then he cares more about it. It's his. So, stay humble, listen, work hard. I appreciate that, thank you. Thanks for your service, brother. Thank you. Front row, shout it up quick, right here.

• 1:43:48Jocko Willink?

  You got that thing up quick. A-game.

• 1:43:52Speaker 06

  Alright, first of all, Jago, thank you for being out here in New York. It's great to finally see you live. Um, I just want to give you perspective, you already elaborated some on communicating as a family, you said you're gonna put some more content out regarding that stuff.

• 1:44:03Jocko Willink?

  Hold on a second, bro. My hearing's not great, slow down, hit it with me again.

• 1:44:08Speaker 06

  Alright, quick and simple, uh, top three rules on raising kids from ages 3 to 9, really getting that sort of attitude instilled while they're still young. So, not about the family, like, dynamic, not about managing, just the kids' attitudes.

• 1:44:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's with kids. First of all, you gotta remember, and this is the hardest thing for parents to deal with, is your kid is not going to be who you want them to be. They're just not. They're humans, and they have their... If that was the truth, all of my kids would be the same type of kid, and they would all, you know, you could just... Here's what they all do. They're not. They're not. Your kids are gonna be different. And your kids are gonna be different from you. They might be a little bit better than you at some things, they might be worse than you at other things. So, what you have to do is, first of all, get that idea out of your head. That being said, you can definitely provide guidance.

• 1:45:07Jocko Willink?

  And you can definitely put them, guide them in the right direction. But, what you don't wanna do is make every decision for them. What you don't wanna do is only let them do what you tell them to do. They've gotta learn to make decisions. Otherwise, they can't go into the world and fend for themselves. They've gotta suffer consequences of their bad decisions. Otherwise, they can't fend for themselves in the world.

• 1:45:35Jocko Willink?

  So you have to, I've said this before, you have to, you have to like, let them brush up against the guardrails of failure. You have to let them tie their own shoe, you have to let them spill the milk. And the more you make or allow them to do for themselves, the better human beings they're gonna be. The more that you do for them and force on them and impose on them, the less they're gonna know for themselves and the more they're gonna rebel against the values that you're putting forth to them. Again, it's a dichotomy. And I'm not saying, "Hey, let your kids do whatever they want."

• 1:46:17Jocko Willink?

  When they go outside that box, give them a nice big box. When they go outside of that, you gotta bring them back in. And you gotta explain to them why you're bringing them back in. They gotta understand that the reason they're not allowed to play in this area is because there's bad people there or there's danger there. It's not just because I said so. So you develop these relationships with your kid. You guide them, but you don't direct them. And you let them be as much of a leader as they can be. And that's the best thing you can do for them. Thank you.

• 1:46:53Speaker 01

  Can I add one more thing to that? Which actually Jaco opened my eyes to this and it like, like your kids are always watching you, like always watch. So if you're yelling at mom or yelling at people on the phone or, I don't know, doing stuff, you're doing stuff that you don't want them to do. You can say, "Hey, don't do this." They'll be like, "Cool." But once they kind of get the opportunity, they're like, "I guess this is kind of how, because dad does it." Especially with the yelling thing and losing like the how do you deal with stress and stuff? That's, bro, they'll jump right on that. That's what I, that's what I really noticed when, actually when he opened my eyes to it. I was like, "Oh, okay." You know when, you know, sometimes you get kids in, or your kids, how many kids you have?

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:47:38Jocko Willink?

  You're planning ahead.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  Okay, alright, there you go. We'll keep this in mind then. Because a lot of the times, you're like, "Oh, you're three-year-old", and you'd be like, "Dang, where did they, how did they pick that up? I didn't teach them that." And the thing is, you probably will have taught them that, just by doing it on your own, you know? Yeah, so they're always watching you. That helped me, I think, a lot. Two kids, by the way.

• 1:48:02Jocko Willink?

  Tighten your game up a little bit, around the kids.

• 1:48:08Jocko Willink?

  Let's see. Really tall hand back there, you.

• 1:48:13Speaker 07

  Thank you. So, a very specific example then. My son, he's three. I would love for him to get into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, just like me, which I also got into, thanks to you two gentlemen. Thank you very much. So, how do I encourage him, without pushing him, without, you know, just getting him into it, really?

• 1:48:34Jocko Willink?

  You have to make it fun. You have to make it fun. And it is much better for it to be fun, once a week, than for them to hate it three times a week. The kid that hates it three times a week, and you think, "I'm doing him a favor", or "I'm doing her a favor, because I got her in there, whether she likes it or not." She's three years old, bro.

• 1:48:58Jocko Willink?

  The best possible thing you can do is not make them train Jiu-Jitsu right now, it's make them enjoy Jiu-Jitsu right now. I did not do this well with my kids. I didn't. It's horrible. When my, especially my daughters. My daughter, when they were very young, it was Jiu-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu. We were doing, they were doing Jiu-Jitsu, six days a week.

• 1:49:29Jocko Willink?

  They were like 6.

• 1:49:33Jocko Willink?

  And that was, that was, that was part of it. Let me tell you what I did that's worse. What's worse is, I was like, "Okay, you're also gonna compete." "'Cause competing makes you better." And it gets worse. "'Cause then it was, "Oh, when I take you to compete, since I'm the coach, "I'm gonna put you in a higher weight class." "I'm gonna put you against, uh, older kids." And, you know what, if you lose... Look, if you lose, it doesn't matter, 'cause you're gonna be tougher. So, so, go out there, do your best. If you lose, don't worry about it, it's gonna make you tougher. So, my daughters go to compete in Jiu-Jitsu tournament, Jiu-Jitsu tournament, Jiu-Jitsu tournament. What happens to them?

• 1:50:18Jocko Willink?

  They get beat. They get beat by someone that's older, they get beat by someone that's heavier. Is that fun?

• 1:50:26Jocko Willink?

  That sucks!

• 1:50:29Jocko Willink?

  What do I think? What does idiot think? "Oh, you're getting tougher." And so, by the time they were 10, it was like, "I don't wanna do any of this crap anymore." And... It got to a point where I was like, "Okay, look, this is ridiculous." I realized the mistake that I had made, and I just had to back off. And luckily, my son made it through that time period. Where he, he kept training all the time, and, and became very good at Jiu-Jitsu. And, and wrestling. But, with the girls, I, I didn't do it right. So, find a good school, where the Jiu-Jitsu is fun. Don't force it down their throat.

• 1:51:13Jocko Willink?

  Let me tell you one more really quick story. My, my son had a friend, who was, like, you know, his running mate. And when he was 6 years old, I said, "Yeah, we'll, we'll bring your son to Jiu-Jitsu, let him try it." He tried it at 6 years old, he didn't like, he tried it one time, I don't like it, got choked, he was crying.

• 1:51:31Jocko Willink?

  He tried it at age 7. Hey, try it again. Didn't like it, hated it. Tried it at age 8, didn't like it, hated it. Age 9, his dad trained, his dad had started training, he kinda got to look at like, oh, that's pretty cool. By the time he was 9 and he tried it, he liked it. And he liked it because he liked it. And he was then old enough to make the decision and want to train and started training hard and he got good really quick. It wasn't like, oh, he missed those 4 years of training. They didn't make a big difference, is my point. They don't make a big difference. So, the most important thing you can do as a parent is make it fun for your kids. Make working out fun.

• 1:52:13Jocko Willink?

  Make jujitsu fun. Make school fun. Make these things enjoyable. Make, let them win, you know, put them in positions where they're gonna win. And I'm not saying every time. Because you do have to learn how to lose. Let them learn to lose when they, occasionally. Let them learn to lose when they get a little older. But...

• 1:52:32Jocko Willink?

  Make it fun for them.

• 1:52:35Jocko Willink?

  That's the key.

• 1:52:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna eventually get balcony up there, but um, I guess you in the back. Go.

• 1:52:45Speaker 04

  Jaco, my question's on the other end of the spectrum for a police officer. I'm a battalion chief in the fire department, 28 years on the department. How do I relate to the 19-year-old? Can you relay a story that you worked with a 19-year-old new SEAL?

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  And you're trying to get what to happen?

• 1:53:05Speaker 04

  I want to develop that relationship with them. You talked about the relationship above me as a leader. How do I develop that relationship for the newer people below me?

• 1:53:16Jocko Willink?

  The best way, okay, when we start talking about relationships, and I mentioned this earlier, what a relationship is, is a relationship is trust. And that's what a team is. A team is a bunch of people with a relationship that all trust each other. How do I develop trust with someone that's below me in the chain of command? What I did, this is what I did to make this happen. As a platoon commander, as a task unit commander, as I was in charge of training, is those young guys that are coming in, I gave them responsibility. I put them in leadership positions. I remember the first time I took over a platoon where the platoon commander got fired, and we had a training operation that night. And I said, I said to the platoon chief, I said, "Hey, who's like a squared away,

• 1:53:58Jocko Willink?

  really junior guy?" And he gave me a name, and I said, "Okay, he's gonna run this mission tonight." And the platoon was like, "Whoa, wait, what are you talking about? This kid's gonna run the mission?" Yep. And all of a sudden, what's the kid thinking? "Wow, this guy trusts me to do this. I'm gonna do a good job for him." And since he trusts me, I'm starting to trust him. And the more you do that, the more you push down that responsibility, and you let people lead, and you put trust into them, the more they're gonna trust you. As long as, when something does go wrong, you don't chop their head off. When something does go wrong, you say, "Hey, look, let's take a look at it, let's see if we can learn from it."

• 1:54:41Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Probably my fault, because I didn't give you very good guidance. So, let's learn from it, and we'll try it again. You know what? You're gonna run the same mission tomorrow night. I know you can do this. That's how you build that trust up, and that's how you build a team.

• 1:54:57Jocko Willink?

  Hand came up quick, right there.

• 1:55:01Jocko Willink?

  It's amazing that you can tell who I'm pointing at.

• 1:55:07Speaker 08

  Jaco, Echo, thank you for everything that you've given us.

• 1:55:12Speaker 08

  Acknowledging that we all have secrets, Jaco,

• 1:55:17Speaker 08

  what would you need to see happen that would change your mind about a run at public office? What? Let me finish.

• 1:55:28Speaker 08

  What would be that trigger event to make you say, "Okay, public office, stand by to get some."

• 1:55:47Speaker 08

  I'll finish and say, quite frankly, you have a nation of troopers, both foreign and domestic, that believe and know that you're qualified to lead and ready to lend their support.

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  What would it take? There is a line somewhere. There is a line somewhere where where I would feel like, okay, the, you know, the country needs me.

• 1:56:20Jocko Willink?

  It's a pretty distant line. It's, it's...

• 1:56:29Jocko Willink?

  That world is so...

• 1:56:34Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to use the word corrupt.

• 1:56:42Jocko Willink?

  But, but, but, because that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about like that kind of corruption. And there's corruption for sure. But, you know, you compare the corruption that we have to the rest of the world, and it's very nice. But there's a different word that I can't quite capture.

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  There's dishonesty, there's...

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  I don't mind the chaos.

• 1:57:05Jocko Willink?

  Some selfishness.

• 1:57:11Jocko Willink?

  Here's what it is.

• 1:57:14Jocko Willink?

  I think, in order... I like, I like when things go wrong. And I know that sounds crazy. But one of my biggest problems is that I get... When things are going good, I get really bored pretty quickly. And I just, like, oh yeah, that's cool. Oh, hey, the business is doing this. Like, my business, like, hey, we're doing this. And I'm like, oh, that's awesome. We're going right there. Okay, cool. What can I look at next? Like, I get, I get kind of bored when things are going well. And when things are going bad, I love it. I really like when things are going bad. And so, in the government...

• 1:58:00Jocko Willink?

  Things don't get that bad. And for me to put my time and effort towards something, you know, really focused, I would get bored very quickly. Because you know how to be like, "Hey, you know what, we're not doing too bad." And so, until there's something

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  bad, that I feel like, "Okay, it's time", that's kind of what would make me roll in that direction. It seems like a miserable life to me. It seems like a miserable life. It seems like a life where you're constantly putting up a facade. And I don't have the desire to do that. You know, I never got interested in going into the CIA or anything like that. Because I never wanted to live that kind of life. And I'm not saying it's bad. I mean, the guys, work with them and they're awesome. But it's just not me. And I don't like to live that way. And it seems like there's a lot of that. Except the fact that if we got into a position as a nation where things were really bad

• 1:59:03Jocko Willink?

  and we needed some... We needed to take action, then I feel like I would step into it. But, man, I hope we don't get there. Let me put it that way. I hope we don't get there. And I don't think we will. But I appreciate the support! And I'm sorry!

• 1:59:25Jocko Willink?

  Red jacket.

• 1:59:30Speaker 09

  First off, thank you for everything you do. And then, my question is, who were your role models growing up? And like, what qualities did they have?

• 1:59:40Jocko Willink?

  Well, my first legitimate role models that I looked at and said, "Okay, that's a person that I can emulate", that was when I got to the SEAL Teams. Up to that point, I was looking... I was a confused kid that was looking at this, you know, this person and that person. But I didn't really... But even, I wasn't confused enough to be like, "Oh, I'm gonna be like that person and follow what they're doing." I would look at people like, "That seems pretty cool. That seems pretty cool." And so, it wasn't until I got into the SEAL Teams and there were some people that you instantly... When I checked into SEAL Team 1, I'm like, "That guy's awesome." "That person right there is awesome. I'm gonna do my best to emulate that person." And there was probably five or seven people at SEAL Team 1.

• 2:00:25Jocko Willink?

  When I got there, that I stole as much as I could in terms of how to behave. And that was it. You know, a guy named Master Chief Facetti, who was super, just ultra-professional in everything. And I was like, "He's so professional, no one can say anything to him. He's a professional. Like, I'm gonna be like that." There was a couple other, there was other guys that, unfortunately, Master Chief Facetti died, so I'm using his name, but other guys that I just looked at and said, "Wow, that guy's awesome." So, I didn't really have like those kind of role models until I got to the teams, you know?

• 2:01:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, balcony, is there anyone on the balcony, microphone style? Right there. Up in the cheap seats!

• 2:01:22Speaker 10

  Jaco, Echo, thank you for your podcast. Jaco, thank you for your service, and Echo, thank you for the work that you work with Jaco and doing the podcast. Also, thank you to the men and women of the service, present, future, and past. I come from a corporate environment, working, doing IT support. Now, my recent role was where I was responsible for supporting 40 to 80 people, pretty much solo. And with that, I had a manager, remote, you know, I had a good working relationship with him. He's former military. So, he would tell me to do certain things within the environment, which I would do. But then, his manager would come down and visit, and sometimes give me contradicting situations or orders. So, what do you do when you have your boss telling you one thing, his boss, your boss's

• 2:02:06Speaker 10

  direct report, telling you to do something contradictory?

• 2:02:09Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Pretty straightforward. If my boss's boss comes to me and tells me to do something, I'm like, "Hey, I just want to make sure that you know that this is what I've been told to do." And then they say, "Yeah, I don't care what that guy says." And you go, "Okay, Roger that." And then he leaves, you go, "Hey, direct boss, here's what's going on. Boss came down and told me to do this. I'm here, I work for you, you're my boss, and I want to tell you what's going on. Do you want me to proceed, or do you want me to stop? I want to keep you informed, here's why." I wanna, I wanna do the right thing and this is what's going on. So, just take the information from the boss, the boss is boss. Got it? Have you told, you know, my boss that? Nope, don't care. Okay, you don't care, fine.

• 2:02:55Jocko Willink?

  Hey boss, your boss is telling me to do this, I wanna let you know what's going on. It's obviously a tenuous situation. Because then this guy up above, the higher guy in the chain of command, like, "Oh, this, you didn't do what I told you to do." Hey, look, I'm, I'm just trying to make sure everyone's informed. And, and that's the way, that's the way things run smoothest. If everyone's informed, I'm here to support. Can you guys talk to each other, so I know what I'm supposed to be doing down here?

• 2:03:25Jocko Willink?

  You, you gotta kinda be the person that, that connects the dots here, to the best of your ability.

• 2:03:33Jocko Willink?

  No problem.

• 2:03:34Speaker 11

  Alright, let's say you're in an organization and you really wanna see it succeed, but it's being led by someone who is, uh, not only steering it in the wrong direction, they're doing it deliberately, and you're not really sure if you can negotiate with them. What would your course?

• 2:03:53Jocko Willink?

  My course of action, if there's someone above me in the chain of command, that's steering us in the wrong direction, I'm gonna do my best to influence and persuade them. If I can't do that, I'm gonna do the best to mitigate the risk down the chain of command, and the strategic risk, I'm gonna do my best to mitigate it. And, while I'm doing that, I'm going to try and inform the other people around that person of the situation that's going on. I'm gonna, I'm gonna build relationships with the COO, with the CFO, with the, with the, if it's the CEO you're talking about, or if it's the, whoever it is, I'm gonna build some relationships with other people, so we can get that person under control. The other thing we have to remember is, sometimes... At the bottom, we don't understand what the real strategy is.

• 2:04:39Jocko Willink?

  And so, my first thing is like, "Hey boss, can you explain to me why we're doing this?" Because it doesn't seem right to me for the following reasons. I want to be able to support what you're saying. Can you tell me why we're doing it this way? So, sometimes they say, "Oh yeah, it's because of this. I should have explained that." Sometimes they say, "Wait a second. What do you mean my strategy's not working down on the front lines?" They don't know. No one's telling them. So, you have to communicate with them to make sure that they understand, to make sure that you understand what direction you're supposed to be heading, and to make sure that they understand why it's problematic on the front lines. If all of that fails, and they're just looking, telling you to be quiet, and they're moving forward in something that's gonna really be detrimental to the organization, we gotta start trying to figure out how to flank that person,

• 2:05:23Jocko Willink?

  and building alliances with people that can try and get us going in the right way. Thank you. Sorry. And of course, there's situations where, especially in the business environment, like if you're in a ship, and the ship is sinking, and you've sounded the alarm, and you've tried to plug the holes, and you've told everyone, and they're still just staying on board the sinking ship without making any corrections. There are times we gotta go, "You know what? This ship is sinking, and I'm not gonna stay on it."

• 2:05:54Jocko Willink?

  That can happen. You can't save every sinking ship. You can't. And you gotta know when it's time to go, "Okay, I'm gonna take the lessons learned, and I'm gonna go somewhere else." Thank you. Yes.

• 2:06:07Speaker 12

  First, I want to thank you, because I am a stage 4 cancer survivor. And...

• 2:06:24Speaker 12

  And in my darkest hours, that a lot of people can't comprehend, you were there with me. Your voice, your everything, still to this day. I mean, "Discipline equals freedom" is a common phrase in my family. Over the most monumental to the most ridiculous things, like letting the dog out at the same time. So, I want to thank you for that. With that being said, I have, at one point, planned my own funeral. Didn't think I was gonna be here for my kids. The worst part of anybody's dreams, nightmares. And then, to be at the place where I am right now... And not knowing, obviously, I'm young and, you know, what the future holds. Nobody's naive.

• 2:07:08Speaker 12

  How, you've been in those similar positions, just not health-wise, but, you know, facing death and everything else. How do you switch from that mindset of, like you said, when things are going really bad, I'm freaking awesome, like, I kick ass, like, I really do. And then when things are kind of calm, I'm like, oh, what do I do now? Like, how am I gonna... You know, even when you were just saying, like, your last line, sometimes I think, like, you just speak to me, it's so creepy, that... (laughter) Like, I... My last chemo was Friday. I shouldn't be well today, but I am because I knew I had to be here. You know, so it's like, stuff like that.

• 2:07:47Speaker 12

  (applause) And then when you said that, you know, at the end of your podcast, that, you know, I'm gonna live life, I'm going to live my days. How did you get from that transition, from, you know, possibly, I don't know if I'm gonna come out of this battle, I don't know if I'm gonna come home, to, okay, I'm here, life's freaking great, let's party. And then in between, like, did you have any... Like, how did you do it? How did you get from the darkest places to the brightest places and then bring everything? My problem is, is I want to bring... I've learned my lesson. Like, I've learned what I had to have learned now.

• 2:08:31Speaker 12

  And now to bring it forward with me, but not to let it define me, if that makes sense.

• 2:08:39Jocko Willink?

  For me.

• 2:08:42Jocko Willink?

  And I actually gave this answer to Sam Harris. Because Sam Harris said to me, you know, Jaco, you've... You... You talk about combat as your fondest memories and it, you know, the best thing that's happened in your life, it's the high point of your life, which is all true. And he said, but then you talk about war being awful. So, which one is it?

• 2:09:12Jocko Willink?

  And I said to him, I said, "Have you ever known anyone that has had cancer? Terminal cancer? And made it through? Have you ever known anyone that that's happened to?" And he's like, "Yes." And I said, "When you talk to them, many times, they say, 'I'm glad that this happened to me.'"

• 2:09:38Jocko Willink?

  Number one, because it proved I could take it. Number two, it's better me than one of my kids. And number three, now that I know how dark it can get,

• 2:09:51Jocko Willink?

  I truly appreciate the light in the world.

• 2:09:59Jocko Willink?

  That's what combat is and was for me.

• 2:10:03Jocko Willink?

  That's what it was. It was dark and horrible, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, just like you wouldn't wish cancer on anyone.

• 2:10:14Jocko Willink?

  But

• 2:10:16Jocko Willink?

  if I can give them a little knowledge,

• 2:10:21Jocko Willink?

  a little bit of a glimpse into what it is, just like when you stand up here, people clap. When you said that, people are clapping. Because they get to see a little bit of it. And they go home tonight, and they think, "Oh, what about that girl? What about that girl?

• 2:10:40Jocko Willink?

  She's fighting. She's living.

• 2:10:47Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna live too."

• 2:10:50Speaker 12

  Maybe that's why I had to have cancer.

• 2:10:53Speaker 12

  That's how I look at things now.

• 2:10:55Jocko Willink?

  I don't pretend to have the cognitive capacity to comprehend the mysteries of the world.

• 2:11:10Jocko Willink?

  But maybe you're right.

• 2:11:13Jocko Willink?

  And maybe you're here to let us know

• 2:11:18Jocko Willink?

  that it can get dark, but it will get light again.

• 2:11:23Speaker 12

  Absolutely. And thank you.

• 2:11:25Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 2:11:33Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 2:11:38Jocko Willink?

  You.

• 2:11:41Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:11:45Speaker 13

  Hey Jaco, thanks for being here. I've been in the Army for three years now and for the past year I've been thinking about putting in a packet for special forces selection. So I guess I just wanted to ask you to talk a little bit about when you joined the SEAL Teams and what did you do to physically and mentally prepare yourself and generally why did you decide to join?

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  Man, I wanted to do that since I was a little kid. When I heard that the SEALs was the toughest training and that's not the necessarily true thing. All the training is hard. There's the special forces, the Marsoc units, the Raiders, the Air Force PJs and CCCs. Everyone's got their awesome special operations units and the training is all hard and all of them. When I heard that the SEALs is the toughest training, I said, "Okay, that's what I want to do." What do you do to get ready for it? You know what you gotta do to get ready for it.

• 2:12:46Jocko Willink?

  You know Army, guess what? You're gonna be humping a ruck, you're gonna be doing forced marches, you gotta be able to run, you gotta be able to nav, you gotta be able to do pushups and pullups and dips and rope climbs and obstacles, that's what you gotta do. You gotta train hard. You gotta train as hard as you possibly can. And then, you have to tell yourself that you're not gonna quit no matter what happens. No matter what happens, you're not gonna quit.

• 2:13:13Jocko Willink?

  No matter what happens. Cause they're gonna play little psychological games on you. Like, let's say they go, "Oh, he's in good shape. He's, you know, we can't really touch him physically, he's in really good shape." So now you know what they're gonna do? They're gonna say, "Oh, you know, you failed this academic test. You're not smart. You're not really smart enough. I mean, you seem like a good guy, but you're not really smart enough. You're the kinda, you're the kinda person that will get someone killed, cause you're gonna make a mistake." They're gonna start attacking you psychologically. Or if you're psychologically strong, but you're physically weak, they're gonna be like, "Hey, you're the kinda person that won't be able to carry me out of combat. We don't want you."

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  They're just saying that.

• 2:13:54Jocko Willink?

  Don't quit.

• 2:13:57Jocko Willink?

  That's it. Don't quit. Go get some.

• 2:14:07Jocko Willink?

  Alright, um.

• 2:14:10Jocko Willink?

  Think one more? Yeah, we're looking, I wanna have some time to hang out, sign books, we gotta be out of here by 11. So.

• 2:14:20Jocko Willink?

  We're getting close. Go ahead, man. Front row.

• 2:14:29Speaker 14

  Jaco, thank for, uh, thank you for speaking tonight. Just a quick question, I, I work in a corporation here in New York and one of the toughest things with being an analyst here is just the fact of like, when do you actually escalate? Or, you know, which, which kind of feels like defeat? But also at the same time, you wanna make sure you loop in somebody else to know what's going on. So I just wanted to ask you about that. Thank you.

• 2:14:53Jocko Willink?

  For me, I look at a problem. If I think I can contain the problem, then I'm gonna try and contain the problem. I recognize and I weigh the risk of, if this is wrong, what's gonna happen? Can I manage that? Can I control it? Can I absorb the impact of that? If I can't absorb the impact of it, then I know it's like, okay, this, I need to bring this up. I need to send this up the chain of command. If it's something that I know I can absorb the impact of, and I can explain myself, and it will be sense, and it won't have been a strategic loss, or a, a major error, then I'm gonna try and hang on to it. And, in the beginning, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna err towards sending it up the chain of command. As I start to trust myself, and I get better at my job, I'm gonna hang on to more.

• 2:15:38Jocko Willink?

  But, again, I'm always gonna weigh, is this something that I can contain, or I can absorb if it goes wrong? And if it's something that I can't, hey, I'm gonna run it by somebody. So I think it's, you just gotta weigh that out, and once you weigh that out,

• 2:15:56Jocko Willink?

  make a decision. And live with it.

• 2:16:00Jocko Willink?

  Alright. Go, one more.

• 2:16:06Jocko Willink?

  Here?

• 2:16:08Jocko Willink?

  Microphone? Anyone?

• 2:16:13Jocko Willink?

  Is there a mic right there?

• 2:16:19Speaker 15

  As somebody who's recently, recently proposed to somebody who would like to spend the rest of my life with, as somebody who's married and has, from my knowledge, gone away for extensive periods of time from their partner, what is your tips to building a mortar-proof marriage that's gonna last a long time?

• 2:16:45Jocko Willink?

  Yep. The first thing I'll say is, you know, you wanna develop the, you want, you wanna make sure and encourage your wife to be emotionally independent, emotionally independent, cuz there's gonna be times when you're not around, and if they're dependent on you emotionally, you're not there, they're gonna, they're gonna be hurt, and they're not gonna be able to handle it. So you wanna help them build that resiliency where, when you're not around, they know how to handle things independently, like the broken water heater and the flat tire, they can do that, and you go through those things, you, you build that confidence with

• 2:17:30Jocko Willink?

  them. And then, also, the emotional independence where what they have is trusting you, that you're gone, but you're coming back, and you're gonna be there for them always. That's number one. Number two is straight-up extreme ownership. That's what it is. When something is going wrong in your marriage, it's your fault. It's your fault. The minute you turn to your wife and you say, "You shouldn't have done this," you're wrong, and you're, you're taking that relationship in the wrong direction.

• 2:18:12Jocko Willink?

  When you say, "Hey, look, I'm trying to figure out how I made you do what you did, I don't wanna let that happen." So, taking ownership when things go wrong, that's what you gotta do. That's what you gotta do.

• 2:18:27Speaker 15

  Thank you.

• 2:18:28Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Awesome.

• 2:18:38Jocko Willink?

  And with that, um...

• 2:18:44Jocko Willink?

  Once again, I can't thank you all enough for coming tonight. And I know that you're just not here tonight. I know that if you're here tonight, you're here all the time. You're with us, you're supporting us, you're supporting everything that we're doing. You're supporting, you're representing. Representing. Representing with the store, with the Jaco store, with the Origin. You guys are in the game, you're getting the books and, and most important, you're listening and you're with us. And the podcast, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. A lot of work goes into it.

• 2:19:31Jocko Willink?

  But I get more out of it than anyone. I get more out of doing this than anyone. And the thing that drives me to keep doing this is not just what I get out of it, but also that you all are there. And that you all are listening and that you all are sitting there with us. And that you guys are hearing the same thing that I'm hearing and you're learning the same things that I'm learning.

• 2:20:14Jocko Willink?

  And I know that we're together.

• 2:20:20Jocko Willink?

  And I know that, that sounds kinda weird, that sounds kinda crazy, but we are. We're together. We're hanging out. We're moving forward. And together, we're stronger.

• 2:20:47Jocko Willink?

  And even though we

• 2:20:50Jocko Willink?

  aren't strong enough to bring back days.

• 2:20:55Jocko Willink?

  And even though we aren't strong enough

• 2:21:01Jocko Willink?

  to bring back the sunset.

• 2:21:08Jocko Willink?

  At least

• 2:21:11Jocko Willink?

  we can sit here together.

• 2:21:16Jocko Willink?

  And we can be humbled and mystified by this life.

• 2:21:23Jocko Willink?

  And together

• 2:21:27Jocko Willink?

  we can go out.

• 2:21:31Jocko Willink?

  And we can live it.

• 2:21:35Jocko Willink?

  I think that's all we've got for tonight.

• 2:21:40Jocko Willink?

  So thanks for coming down. And until next time. This is Echo and Jaco. Out.

• 2:21:51Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 2:21:56Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.