Pod Insights The Sporkful The Hidden History of Regional Burgers (Reheat) About this episode Welcome to our summer cookout spectacular episode! We talk with renowned burger historian George Motz about the history of the hamburger, and about the wide range of regional burgers across the country, many of which are unknown outside their areas. Then we get an incredible burger recipe from Chef Jehangir Mehta, inspired by Indian street food, that’s made with 25% mushrooms.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dan Pashman? As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean, whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider.
0:35 Speaker 01 Lowe's is rolling out the Black Friday deals early. Get up to 35% off select major appliances. Plus, get next day delivery on hundreds of in-stock appliances and shop holiday decor as low as $10. Black Friday deals are on now at Lowe's, in-store and online. Valid through 11/3 while supplies last. Order by 4 p.m. Available Monday through Saturday. Subject to availability. Fees, exclusions, and restrictions apply. See Lowe's.com/ApplianceDelivery.
1:06 Dan Pashman? Have you fired up your grill this summer yet? I certainly haven't. I plan to be firing it up a lot more, which means I'm thinking about burgers. Okay, and that's why this week's reheat is for you and me, really, because I like talking about burgers. We are diving deep into burgers and also talking in this reheat about regional burgers. There are different kinds of burgers that are made in different parts of America, and we know about regional pizza, we know about regional hot dogs. Regional burgers, finally getting their credit, thanks to George Moats, who we're hearing this episode. And we have an update. George Moats, hamburger historian. He has a restaurant now. In 2023, he opened Hamburger America in New York City. It's a retro luncheonette that, yes, of course, serves burgers, including George's own take on the Oklahoma Fried Onion Burger. And get this, Hamburger America just made the New
1:49 Dan Pashman? York Times list of the 100 best restaurants in New York City, which is incredible. And I'm ashamed to admit I haven't been there yet, but I'm gonna go. Anyway, if you have a Sporkful episode you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat, drop me a line at [email protected] . Thanks so much, and enjoy.
2:08 Dan Pashman? So, George, tell me about the career arc of America's foremost burger historian.
2:15 Speaker 02 Well, it wasn't really supposed to be a career, that's for sure.
2:21 Dan Pashman? This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And welcome to our summer cookout spectacular. Insert firework sound effect here. Later on, we'll get an incredible burger recipe from Chef Jehangir Mehta that includes 25% mushrooms. Then later, Kenji Lopez alt stops by for a debate that I promise is gonna spark some conversation at your next socially-distanced gathering. But first, George Motz is, in fact, America's foremost burger historian. He's written books about burgers, made TV shows and films on the subject, and he's got a web series called Burger Scholar Sessions. He started out as a cameraman, and whenever he had to travel for a film or TV shoot, he'd tack on a couple of days to eat the regional burger
3:06 Dan Pashman? of whatever place he was in. Soon, he started filming those adventures, and he became obsessed. But a lot of people didn't get it.
3:14 Speaker 02 Even people who were making burgers didn't understand their own importance. There were really people who were making them said, "It's just a burger. You know, George, calm down." The hamburger was a symbol of, like, real American pride and ingenuity. I think it's a very important story to tell.
3:29 Dan Pashman? And so what is that historical context? Tell me about burger history.
3:32 Speaker 02 The short history of the hamburger is that it came to America, we know, from German immigrants that had to leave from the port of Hamburg, Germany. When they're in Hamburg, they had to wait for passage mostly, sometimes for a week, two weeks, sometimes a month. And they had to eat cheaply and eat well. So they ate steak in the style of Hamburg, which is chopped steak served on a plate with onions and something in gravy, whatever else. As people started to immigrate through the United States into the Midwest, a lot of Germans moved to the Midwest and brought with them the Hamburg steak. State fairs started to pop up all over the Midwest, and there was a need for food, especially food that was portable. The hot dog predates the hamburgers invention by a few years. And I can almost guarantee that people who were at state fairs
4:17 Speaker 02 who were selling Hamburg steak on a plate with a knife and a fork, watching hot dogs walk by, thinking, "I need to have that."
4:23 Dan Pashman? Right, right. "I need that technology. I need bun technology if I'm gonna sell this food at this fair."
4:29 Speaker 02 Believe that that happened at about seven different fairs, almost at the same time, within the same few years. Mid 1880s to 1890 was whenever those first inventions started happening at state fairs. One of the most important parts is, believe it or not, is the introduction of White Castle. They were the ones who turned the hamburger from working class sustenance into an actual thing that became one of the most popular food items in the history of the United States.
4:57 Dan Pashman? Is it true that White Castle ripped off white manna in Hackensack, New Jersey?
5:02 Speaker 02 No, it was probably, I mean, not ripped off, but here's the story. Before there were White Castle, it was one guy working out of a very small shoe repair shack in Wichita, Kansas. He learned from someone else, if you smash some balls of beef on a piece of metal and put them on buns with some onions, you're going to sell a lot of them. And he did. He sold a ton. And another guy came up to him, who was a real estate investor, and he said, I would like to invest in your idea. Let's make a few of these in town and sell a lot of burgers. And that became White Castle. And they decided that they chose White Castle because white signified cleanliness, which is very important at that point. And Castle signified strength. Anybody who was opening up a hamburger joint at that time, for the next few years, if you did not put the word white in your hamburger restaurant, you were not going to sell burgers. So white manna is one of those.
5:47 Speaker 02 White manna is one of the original whites, not a White Castle, but it's one of the original copies of White Castle.
5:52 Dan Pashman? What George says reminds me of the story of Wonder Bread. When Wonder Bread first came out, their slogan was untouched by human hands, which also was supposed to signify cleanliness or purity. This was all happening in the years after Upton Sinclair's book, The Jungle, a novel about the meatpacking industry, which made Americans think a lot more about what was in their food. It was also a time when a lot of new immigrants were coming in from Europe. They were working in meatpacking plants and bakeries. And there was a common stereotype that they were dirty, bringing disease. The basic message with Wonder Bread and White Castle, white food is clean food. Here's another shocking fact about White Castle. It was founded in 1921, which is before the invention of the cheeseburger.
6:33 Dan Pashman? So that history is very interesting, George, but to me, the burger in this story is still kind of adrift in the wilderness.
6:39 Speaker 02 Yes.
6:40 Dan Pashman? And it does not find its true calling until it meets cheese. When does the burger meet the cheese?
6:46 Speaker 02 There's been a few. Claims to the invention of the cheeseburger. For years, I've called a place in Louisville, Kentucky called Kalin's as the birthplace of the cheeseburger, but that was in the 30s. We've now found out from actual menu accounts that it goes back as far as 1920, we believe 1924, 1925, at a place called The Right Spot in Pasadena, California.
7:09 Dan Pashman? And, and once people started eating cheeseburgers, I imagine it like the cave parable. People came out of the cave and they looked back into the cave and were like, how could we have been living like this?
7:18 Speaker 02 Basically.
7:27 Dan Pashman? As a burger historian, George is not just a generalist. He's also spent years eating, cataloging, and cooking America's many specific regional burgers.
7:36 Speaker 02 Regional burgers are important because people, I think, they consider the hamburger to be one thing. You know, it's beef and cheese and some lettuce and tomato. But when you actually get out there and start digging and you get off the beaten path and you get away from the fast food, you do find some amazing regional expressions out there. An expression of the locale. In many ways, the burger represents not just the ingredients that you can find there, but the people themselves who actually make and eat burgers and how they appreciate them.
8:02 Dan Pashman? All right, George, are you ready for the lightning round?
8:04 Speaker 02 I'm ready. Go ahead. Hit me.
8:07 Dan Pashman? I'm gonna name a regional burger. I want you to give me its brief history, tell me what, what it is, how it's made, and then I want you to tell me the hallmark of an especially good one.
8:18 Speaker 02 Okay.
8:18 Dan Pashman? First up, the Mississippi Slug Burger.
8:21 Speaker 02 Ah, Mississippi Slug Burger is a burger that has no slugs in it.
8:25 Dan Pashman? Right.
8:26 Speaker 02 It was invented, actually, in the 1920s also, same as when the rise of the burger all sort of happened at the same time. But this burger had yesterday's breadcrumbs that were crushed up into it and thrown into the meat and mixed in to actually extend the meat. So you had more meat for the, for the day. There's some weird science that goes on when you add breadcrumbs only to beef and you mix it in and you cook it on a flat top, when the fat renders from the beef, it actually goes right into those breadcrumbs and makes them crispy and tasty as hell. Now, if you go and ask for a slug burger today, which still exists in northern Mississippi, you're probably gonna get something that's not beef at all. It's actually pork and soy flour, which is what it morphed into over the years. In fact, most people in the region don't even believe me when I tell them what there
9:09 Speaker 02 was originally a beef burger with breadcrumbs in it.
9:12 Dan Pashman? Interesting. And, and what to you is the hallmark of an especially good Mississippi Slug Burger?
9:17 Speaker 02 Size, small, very small burger, cooked super flat, super crispy, and served usually sometimes doubles. I think double is probably the way to go. You get two sides, you know, per patties. You've got four crispy sides, served on a bun.
9:29 Dan Pashman? Got it. Next one, the Cuban frita, which is now easier to find in Miami than in Cuba. Tell me about the Cuban frita.
9:37 Speaker 02 Take a Cuban roll, or actually, they actually can make Cuban bread and make them into the shape of a bun. And it's the patty actually, I wouldn't normally recommend this, but the patty is a spiced patty. It has lots of spices inside of it. Cumin, you're thinking of garlic and paprika. It's actually mixed into the beef, and it's cooked on a flat top, at a very low temperature, not, it's not seared, it's kind of bubbling in its own juices. To that, they also add a, almost like a very thin hot sauce, tomatoey hot sauce, that it cooks in its own sauce. After that, some onions get thrown on top of that. It's served with thin sliced julienne potatoes on top of a bun with more onions, and believe it or not, ketchup, which I wouldn't normally put on a burger either, and then on to a Cuban roll. It's fantastic.
10:21 Dan Pashman? And those fries are almost like, I mean, these are like very thin shoestring fries. They almost look like the ones that you can get out of a can that are so good. Potato sticks.
10:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, potato sticks. Yeah, if you go to a place that actually serves potato sticks on top, you can tell if they're fresh or not. You want to go to the place that actually has the gear, the machinery to make, you know, homemade potato sticks, basically.
10:42 Dan Pashman? Right. What's the mark of an especially good frita?
10:45 Speaker 02 Freshness. It was all fresh. You can tell. You know, there are a couple of fantastic places in Miami. One place I'd need to plug, of course, they're wonderful, called El Rey de las Fritas. So they're actually a small chain, family owned chain. El Rey has the DNA to go back to the beginning of the frita in America, which was back in the 1970s, really, when it took off.
11:04 Dan Pashman? One more in the lightning round, the Connecticut steamed cheeseburger.
11:08 Speaker 02 Another, another great one, and very unique, and it pretty much only exists in the geographic center of Connecticut. It's made, cooked in a steam box, and the history is a little bit nebulous. It goes back to the early 50s. Connecticut was, a lot of metalworking going on, and a very ingenious guy came up with an idea to make a box, almost like a filing cabinet, with little drawers in it, to put meat. The cheese actually goes into one of the little compartments to steam as well. So you have the end up with this, this burger, which is cooked through. It's actually, it's steamed and it's very gray. It's almost like a gray soft matter. They don't add anything to it, any salt or anything, but then they take that cheese. The cheese turns into this molten goo that gets poured on top of it. And that's really what people go for. It sounds disgusting, tastes incredible. It's a great experience in Connecticut for sure.
11:52 Dan Pashman? So George, we, we, we checked through a few regional burgers. I know there are many more out there. You know, it's interesting to me, like, I feel like a lot of us have some idea of regional pizzas. We know, we understand there's New York, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis pizzas. There's LA and San Francisco burritos. There's Memphis and Kansas City ribs. These different regional variations on other foods are well known throughout the national consciousness. And yet I feel like there's very little understanding, and I have very little understanding too, of these different regional burgers. Why is that, do you think?
12:30 Speaker 02 Well, first of all, a lot of the variations on regional hamburgers are hyper regional. They really only exist within, even sometimes even a certain town, sometimes even only in a certain restaurant. Also, I do believe that still we're fighting, I'm fighting, I personally every day, I'm fighting an uphill battle to get people to understand and appreciate the hamburger, the regional hamburger specifically, because people don't see the hamburger still to this day as something that could be considered to be important. Someone once told me, they said, it takes 12 to 14 hours to make a whole pork sandwich. It takes three minutes to make a hamburger. People don't really consider the hamburger to have a process or a real history. So this is, I believe that's really a part of it. They, they don't, they don't take the burger as seriously as they should, as the way they would for barbecue. I wish they did.
13:21 Dan Pashman? There are some fancy pants folks out there that like to insult American cheese, George.
13:29 Speaker 02 I know.
13:29 Dan Pashman? What?
13:32 Dan Pashman? It sounds, just by that response, like you may have tussled with these folks before, as I have.
13:37 Speaker 02 Yes, I would like to address all those cheese haters out there. They have to understand, first of all, that American cheese is really nothing more than unaged cheddar cheese. That's it.
13:48 Dan Pashman? But George, it's processed. American cheese is processed. How could you eat something that's so processed?
13:53 Speaker 02 Every single cheese out there is processed. Everything. It's very important to understand that it's just more processed to it, but it's one of the greatest cheeses for burgers because it melts so perfectly. Scientifically engineered to melt perfectly on a burger.
14:06 Dan Pashman? Amen. I'm with you, George.
14:08 Speaker 02 Also, all those haters that want to put cheddar, whatever they want to, Gouda on a burger, and you have to force that cheddar to melt. You know what you're doing? You're actually overcooking the burger at that point.
14:16 Dan Pashman? Yes, 100%. In addition to traveling around and eating a whole bunch of burgers, George also cooks them. He's known to make hundreds or even thousands at a time at food festivals. In general, he prefers a loosely packed burger made with 80% lean ground beef. None of that 90/10 stuff. You want a juicy burger? Look, the juice is melted fat, okay? So you have to use higher fat beef. He also prefers using a flat top griddle instead of a grill, so every part of the burger is touching the cooking surface. And one regional version of this type of burger, the Oklahoma Fried Onion Burger, has become one of George's signatures.
14:51 Speaker 02 You drop a three ounce ball of meat, ground beef, usually 80/20, sometimes 75/25, chuck only. A sprinkle with some salt. To that, I add a wad of very, very thin sliced sweet onion that gets smashed into the patty with a very stiff spatula.
15:07 Dan Pashman? So picture like fine ribbons of onion dropped on top of the burger. So it's like half burger, half onions. And then you smash the whole patty so it's paper thin. You cook it like that for a minute or two and flip it over.
15:18 Speaker 02 And you end up stewing these onions into the beef. It becomes intermingled and crispy and parts and soft in other parts. A slice of cheese goes on top, American cheese, and then from there it goes on to an untoasted bun and served. And that's it. Simple as that.
15:34 Dan Pashman? And how cooked do the onions end up?
15:37 Speaker 02 Well, the way I like to scientifically describe it is that the onions actually end up in three different stages of cooked.
15:43 Dan Pashman? Okay.
15:44 Speaker 02 The onions that are now smashed and now are around the burger, actually touching the flat top, get very crispy because sweet onions cook very fast and crisp up quickly because of the high sugar content. The onions now that are in the center, once you flip it over, have become steamed. They actually, they do release a lot of their onion juice and actually help the flavor of the burger. And the ones that are right dead in the center, not crunchy, but almost just barely cooked in a way. So you have barely cooked, you have steamed, soft, and you have crispy onions, all in the same, and pretty much sometimes in one bite.
16:15 Dan Pashman? Wow. Now, I gotta try it. I mean, I've seen your Instagrams, I've seen the pictures, I've seen the videos, it looks fantastic. I need to eat it. I too have adopted the flat top method. You know, what we want in our beef is we want the Maillard reaction, we want that high heat right on the beef, we want the beef to caramelize, we want it to get crispy edges. And when you have more hot surface touching the beef, you get more of that.
16:40 Speaker 02 Exactly.
16:40 Dan Pashman? So I too have adopted the flat top. I smash the burgers, I salt, I flip. When I go to place the burger on the bun, I put it on the bun cheese side down. I believe that you want the cheese closer to your tongue to accentuate cheesy goodness. And I believe that the cheese creates a seal that protects the bottom bun from turning soggy.
17:04 Speaker 02 Interesting.
17:06 Dan Pashman? What is your take on my cheese on the bottom technique?
17:09 Speaker 02 Traditionally, just, you know, going way back to the beginning of like the pub burger, New York City pub burger, they would put a slice of raw onion on the bottom specifically for that reason, to protect the bottom bun from being devoured by burger grease.
17:21 Dan Pashman? Interesting. But you sound skeptical.
17:24 Speaker 02 I just have never really seen it. And I don't really know, if you, when you bite into a burger, you're getting all those flavors at the same time. You should be at least, it doesn't really matter where the cheese is, as long as it's in there somewhere.
17:33 Dan Pashman? Hmm. I don't know if I agree with that, George.
17:41 Dan Pashman? You're right that it does all get mashed up, but I think that when you get the cheese in the bottom, it just heightens that cheesiness, that creaminess, that mouth feel. Look, you know, George, I know that you're a purist and I know that you're kind of steeped in history and you like to preserve traditions. And that all has its place, but I think that, you know, we also have to continue to push forward.
18:04 Speaker 02 I agree.
18:05 Dan Pashman? If we didn't, then the Hamburg steak would never have been placed on a bun in the first place. It never would have had cheese added to it over the years. And all the burgers, the variations that you revere would never have come upon us. And so I'm going to continue to push forward. And I hereby advocate the cheeseburger with the cheese on the bottom.
18:24 Speaker 02 Good luck with that.
18:34 Dan Pashman? That's George Moats. You can find info on his books, events, and more at georgemoats.com. If you want to watch George cook some of the regional burgers we discussed, check out his YouTube series. It's called Burger Scholar Sessions. Coming up, a different type of burger. Chef Jahangir Mehta will tell us how to make a blended burger with lots of mushrooms seasoned kind of like a lamb kebab. Then chef and food writer Kenji Lopez Alt joins me to take a call from a listener who wants to argue about the definition of a salad. Stick around.
19:14 Speaker 03 And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.
19:26 Dan Pashman? When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food. They also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done. The odors and stains have to be tackled. And I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is Essentially in your clothes and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there and All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it and let me tell you, family
20:07 Dan Pashman? of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear, All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves, I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods, and when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean, whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat or more.
20:51 Dan Pashman? Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider.
21:01 Speaker 04 Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.
21:44 Speaker 04 While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Broker Services LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.
22:01 Speaker 05 With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.
22:36 Dan Pashman? Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. You ever like go to our show page in your podcasting app and you're scrolling back and you're like, oh, that that seems like a good episode. Why, how did I miss that? Well, you missed it because you're probably not following our show in your podcasting app. And it's really important that you do. So please do this right now. Go to our show page in your podcasting app of choice. If it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify, you click follow. Other apps, maybe it's a plus sign or a heart or a favorite or the word subscribe, whatever it is in your app. It's really important that you click it. That way you won't miss great episodes. It's super quick and easy. You can do it right now. Thank you so much.
23:14 Dan Pashman? Okay, back to our summer cookout spectacular. Now, we eat about four times more meat today than we did 200 years ago. And there's a cost to producing all that meat. You have to feed a cow 13 pounds of cow food for every one pound of meat it generates for us. Clearly, this is not sustainable. Now, one of the really easy and delicious ways to address this issue is by mixing more veggies into our meat.
23:37 Speaker 06 We use Angus beef. We are just going to just chop some portobello, which we use in our burger. After they have been cooked in, we just literally massage it in and then make a patty with it.
23:54 Dan Pashman? This is Chef Jehangir Metta. We're in the kitchen at his restaurant Graffiti in New York, and he's making me his signature graffiti burger. About 25% of it is mushrooms and other herbs and spices. Hence the term blended burger. It's kind of like the hybrid car of burgers. So it uses less beef, which is good for all the reasons that I talked about. But that's not why he does it. In fact, on the menu, it just says graffiti burger. No mention of the mushrooms.
24:17 Speaker 06 You don't think it's different. It's just there. We've never viewed ourselves as how this whole trend is. Oh, red-centric restaurants. And then we never call ourselves that. This is our food and this is what we do. So basically, that's why we called it a graffiti burger is because, and the restaurant graffiti too, because it is just my style of food. If people ask me, what is that? That's my style of food.
24:40 Dan Pashman? Some of that style comes from growing up in Mumbai. Some of it comes from training at the great French restaurant Jean Georges. He makes small burger patties. They're actually like mini burgers. And he seasons them almost sort of like the lamb kebabs you'd see on the streets of Mumbai. Garlic, onion, cilantro, turmeric, cumin, coriander, chili powder. I mean, the works. And then on to the griddle.
25:05 Speaker 06 So we cook it about to medium rare. Again, if someone wants it differently, we are always willing to do it differently.
25:14 Dan Pashman? But if someone orders it and they say, I want it well done, doesn't that make you a little bit sad?
25:19 Speaker 06 No, I have always been in the belief that if you like it that way, then why should we be the one judging you? Because your palate enjoys it that way. I think this is one thing I learned from, this was years ago, I worked for Jean Georges, when we had first opened Jean Georges as a restaurant. And at that time, smoking was allowed at the bar. And one day I heard, like, the chef saying, his executive chef saying, that I can't believe they're doing this nine-course tasting menu with this amazing bottle of wine that they have bought for like, I don't know, four thousand, five thousand. And they, and they keep smoking the whole time, every course. They can't even taste anything.
25:59 Speaker 06 And I heard Jean Georges repeat and say, well, if that is how they enjoy their meal, so be it. They like that palate of that smoky, aspects of cancer. That's their fault. But not me.
26:16 Dan Pashman? Jehangir puts the small burger on a grilled mini bun, and he tops it with lettuce, red onion, and fried inoki mushrooms.
26:22 Speaker 06 One thing I have to say, I never understood how Americans can open their mouth so large to put in anything. Like, when I first came, I could not believe how you can eat some of the things over here. And so I think this is the largest, I think, a two and a half ounce patty is the largest I can open my mouth. So that's why we have it at two and a half ounces. That was the architecture of it.
26:43 Dan Pashman? Right. So function over form.
26:44 Speaker 06 Function over form. Though I am American, I'm very proud of it, but I've still not mastered that aspect. It was not a question on the citizenship test.
26:54 Dan Pashman? Well, I'll have to call the citizenship office about that.
26:57 Speaker 06 You should, definitely.
26:59 Dan Pashman? Should we eat?
27:00 Speaker 06 Absolutely.
27:01 Dan Pashman? All right.
27:04 Dan Pashman? Oh, man. It's so good.
27:10 Dan Pashman? Crunchy mushrooms on top. I mean, I know it's not your goal to trick people, but if you wanted to trick people and tell people that it was a full beef burger, I would definitely believe you. It's really, really nice.
27:22 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think because we put so many spices and herbs in it, and we also call it a kebab burger, it's like a style of a kebab. And people actually think it's made with lamb. And I think if we were in some third world country, we could have just said yes to it and made more money on it. But we like to be a little more honest here, I think, in this country.
27:42 Dan Pashman? That's not going to get you very far.
27:47 Dan Pashman? That's Chef Jehangir Mehta. Since we last spoke to him, graffiti shut down. But you can find a link to the recipe for the graffiti burger on sporkful.com.
28:01 Dan Pashman? So we've covered a wide range of burgers for your summer cookout. Now it's time to talk about a side dish and to give you a conversation topic in the process. Did I say conversation? Sorry, I meant argument. Joining me now is our friend Kenji Lopez Alt, James Beard Award-winning author of The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking Through Science. Hey, Kenji. Hey, how's it going? So we're gonna take a call now. You ready to go to the phones and handle a pretty controversial topic? Definitely. All right, let's do it. Hi, who's this? Hi, this is
28:29 Speaker 07 Lila from Los Angeles. I have a problem with the naming conventions of salad.
28:34 Dan Pashman? Okay.
28:35 Speaker 07 When people call potato salad and pasta salad salad, this is a corruption of the term.
28:42 Dan Pashman? Okay, why?
28:43 Speaker 07 For me, they're just not salads. They don't have all the characteristics that you would generally think of as salad.
28:49 Dan Pashman? So what are those characteristics? Define what you, give to me what you think should be the definition of salad.
28:55 Speaker 07 Um, I would say a lack of leafy greens does not fully disqualify it, but definitely some sort of vegetable base.
29:01 Speaker 06 So you would still consider like an Israeli salad with cucumbers and tomatoes to be a salad? Or, you know, or a Greek salad with onions and tomatoes and feta cheese to be a salad?
29:11 Speaker 07 Yeah, I would consider that a handicap salad. Definitely still salad.
29:16 Speaker 06 But, but a ham salad or an egg salad you'd say is not a real salad?
29:21 Speaker 07 Not a real salad.
29:22 Dan Pashman? So you think that if it has a vegetable base, then that is a salad? But isn't a potato a vegetable?
29:30 Speaker 07 Yes, but it, it serves, it doesn't serve the purpose of a vegetable. Usually people order salads to strive to be healthy, maybe have a refreshing accompaniment to a meal. But that's not what the potato salad is usually used for. It's used as a starch side.
29:47 Speaker 06 I, I think you're trying to get her in a trap here. And, and you know, I think you're, the potato is a vegetable is sort of the, um, you know, the, the George Bush definition of a vegetable, like french fries and ketchup should count as
29:56 Speaker 07 Yeah.
29:56 Speaker 06 vegetables. Um, I'm, I'm with her on this.
29:59 Speaker 07 Kenji, I appreciate your appeal.
30:01 Dan Pashman? Who invited this guy here?
30:05 Dan Pashman? How old are you, Lila?
30:07 Speaker 07 Well, I actually just turned 17 today.
30:08 Dan Pashman? Oh, happy birthday.
30:09 Speaker 06 Happy birthday.
30:10 Dan Pashman? So you are what year in high school, junior?
30:13 Speaker 07 Yeah, I'm a junior.
30:14 Dan Pashman? Okay. In common usage, the word salad means two different things. I think most of the time, the context tells us which we're talking about. I would like to arrive at one definition, though, that can encompass both salads we're talking about.
30:28 Speaker 06 A technical definition of a salad is, um, you know, any small chopped, generally vegetable-based, um, ingredients that are tossed in a dressing, typically served cold, not always served cold, you know? So under the technical definition, I think, um, a potato salad, um, a chicken salad, a macaroni salad, I think those are all technically salads.
30:44 Speaker 07 If you have to specify what genre of salad, it's not a real salad.
30:49 Dan Pashman? My friend Justin Warner from Food Network, I talked about this with him once, and he had a definition that I'm going to steal right now. A salad is a mixed, a mixture of foods that have not been cooked together.
31:03 Speaker 07 Interesting.
31:04 Dan Pashman? Some of them may have been cooked separately, but they are not then cooked together.
31:09 Speaker 05 Okay, okay, so, okay, I got it. So I guess a sandwich is a salad then?
31:15 Dan Pashman? That doesn't really feel like a mixture. If you were to take a couple of different sandwiches and chop them into cubes and mix them in a bowl, that would be a sandwich salad. And I'll bet it could be good.
31:27 Speaker 05 So, I mean, I think that definition is a good technical definition. I think it doesn't address Lila's question, though. Can I ask you something? What would you call a pasta salad or potato salad? Do you think that there is a better way to describe it, or do you think we need a completely new term?
31:42 Speaker 07 I would call it a pasta dish, is the term.
31:45 Speaker 05 But if you say to someone, "I'm gonna have a picnic. Hey, Joe, you bring the burgers. Bill, you bring the Cheetos. And Mary, can you bring the pasta dish?" Is she gonna know what you're talking about? I mean, is she gonna bring a pasta salad, or is she gonna bring a tray of baked ziti?
32:00 Speaker 07 I think context is important. Usually with a barbecue, you'd want a fresh side dish. So I don't think there's really any trouble in saying pasta dish, because she would know that it should be something fresh, cold, not a baked ziti, like you would say.
32:16 Speaker 05 Well, what if Mary isn't as bright as you?
32:21 Speaker 07 Yeah, I mean- Then you'll specify for Mary.
32:25 Dan Pashman? So, Lila, if you were bringing this case before a court of law, one of the questions they would ask you is, what damages have you suffered as a result of this injustice?
32:37 Dan Pashman? Can you cite a time in your life where this has actually been a real problem?
32:41 Speaker 07 Yeah, well, I might be a little biased on this, because personally, I really dislike mayonnaise.
32:48 Dan Pashman? Now the truth comes out.
32:49 Speaker 07 Yeah.
32:50 Dan Pashman? She's mayonnaist.
32:53 Speaker 07 So at my school, we often have potlucks. And recently, we had a potluck for my Latin class. I was promised that there would be chicken, bread, cheese, and salad. So I said to myself, great, that's my vegetable filling for the day. I wouldn't have to pack other supposedly healthy food items. But I showed up, and there was pasta. It was pasta held together by mayonnaise. And for me, that was not what I was promised. It's a deceitful presentation of salad.
33:28 Dan Pashman? Well, that's okay. That's fair. That's a very good real-world example, Lila. And you have proven to me that you sustained some sort of damage here. But it seems to me that the only solution, really, is to come up with a new word for potato salad, egg salad, chicken salad.
33:47 Speaker 05 I would put them under the umbrella of deli salads. You know, the kind of salads that can be dressed and held indefinitely, and then just scooped out with like an ice cream scoop and put onto your plate at the cafeteria or at the deli. And I think that if you're going to call something just salad, that I agree with her, it's something that you expect to be freshly dressed. You expect it to be relatively light and fresh and crispy.
34:08 Speaker 07 All right, I can run with that.
34:10 Dan Pashman? If we could go back in time, Lila, and you could redo that potluck, you would have been told in advance, we're gonna have a bunch of deli salads.
34:18 Speaker 07 Yes. I would have known that my vegetable fill would not have been met.
34:22 Speaker 05 Yes, but your mayonnaise quota would have been.
34:25 Speaker 07 Sadly, yeah.
34:29 Dan Pashman? Well, Lila, I happen to be a lover of mayonnaise, so it does pain me whenever I hear a young person speaking ill of it. But I do admire any young person like you, who is as pedantic as Kenji and me. And you seem like you have a very bright future ahead of you. So I appreciate you calling in and sharing your wisdom on this issue.
34:50 Speaker 07 Thank you so much, Dan. I was glad I was able to contribute my thoughts.
34:55 Dan Pashman? Kenji Lopez Alt, author of The Food Lab. Thanks so much.
34:59 Speaker 05 Thank you so much, Dan.
35:04 Dan Pashman? The Sporkful is produced by me along with senior producer Emma Morgenstern. And producer Andres O'Hara. Additional production by Julia Shu. Our editor is Tracy Samuelson. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
35:24 Speaker 03 And I'm Lindsay from El Paso, Texas, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
35:44 Dan Pashman? This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era. Plus, live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
36:32 Speaker 03 This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take it if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur.
37:14 Speaker 03 Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTC or visit nurtc.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.
37:32 Speaker 04 Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.
38:15 Speaker 04 While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.
Previous Why A Famous Chef Asked A Critic To Leave His Restaurant Next How Jessica B. Harris Redefined American Food Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated