Pod Insights The Sporkful Why A Famous Chef Asked A Critic To Leave His Restaurant About this episode Chefs tend to have a love-hate relationship with restaurant critics, who have the power to make or break them. Critics try to enter restaurants undetected, while chefs try to spot them, then ensure a flawless experience and a good review. This week, we have a story about one critic’s very unusual encounter with a famous chef, and the bombshell article that followed.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:03 Speaker 01 When Soleil went, I think in 2019, they wheeled out a little cart for like a tableside presentation. And so, Soleil was kind of confused because they hadn't seen it wheeled out to any other table. And then they bring out a bong, a big glass, hand-blown bong. And Soleil writes in their piece, "You know, the kind you use to smoke drugs." And it's filled with mushroom soup.
1:36 Dan Pashman? This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Before we get to the show, I have some super exciting news, everyone. I am going to be a judge on Guy's Grocery Games. Yes, Triple G. It's the beloved competition show hosted by the one and only Guy Fieri, and I'll be on next Wednesday night, June 25th. That's Guy's Grocery Games on Food Network. Check your local listing for the time and set your DVRs. It's gonna be awesome. All right, let's get to the show.
2:09 Dan Pashman? For about as long as there have been restaurants, there have been restaurant critics. Chefs tend to have a love-hate relationship with them. A great review can make a chef's career and keep customers coming in the door for years. But a bad review can do the opposite. And even in an age when legacy media is struggling and everyone on social media in Yelp is a critic, reviews in major outlets still carry weight, especially in the world of fine dining. Today, we have a story about one critic's very unusual encounter with a famous chef and the bombshell article that followed. Mackenzie Chung-Fagan is the restaurant critic for the San Francisco Chronicle. It's a job she's had for a year and a half. Before that, she was a senior editor at Bon Appetit and had written for GQ, Playboy, and Vice.
2:53 Dan Pashman? When she got the job as critic at the Chronicle, it wasn't just to step up professionally. This role was personal. In her first story for the paper, she wrote, quote, "It's not a stretch to say that my life has been uniquely shaped by restaurant criticism."
3:06 Speaker 01 A positive review in The New Yorker changed the trajectory of my family's life.
3:13 Dan Pashman? This is Mackenzie.
3:14 Speaker 01 My grandparents immigrated from China in 1948, and they had a string of failed businesses. Eventually, in the 70s, in San Francisco, they decided to open up a restaurant serving the type of cuisine that they would have eaten at home. And at the time, Chinese food in San Francisco and the rest of America was mostly American Chinese food with a lot of Cantonese influence. But my family's from Hunan Province, and the food is very rustic. It's very spicy.
3:45 Dan Pashman? This was, especially in the 70s, not what most Americans thought of when they thought of Chinese food.
3:49 Speaker 01 Correct, yeah. It was one of the first regional Chinese restaurants in San Francisco.
3:53 Dan Pashman? And what was it called?
3:54 Speaker 01 It was called the Hunan Restaurant. I mean, if that's any indication of how few regional restaurants there were, it was just the name of the province, right?
4:03 Dan Pashman? Two years after the place opened, a writer for The New Yorker named Tony Hiss stumbled on it and had a meal there. The food was so good, he decided to write about it.
4:11 Speaker 01 And called it the best Chinese restaurant in the world. Which is incredible, hyperbole. And, you know, it took off like a shot after that. And they were able to open additional locations. They were able to open a big restaurant with like a banquet hall. And the power of that restaurant review and others that followed, I will never forget, and no one in my family will. Those reviews are still framed on the walls of the restaurant.
4:40 Dan Pashman? So Mackenzie understands the power of a restaurant critic. At The Chronicle, she covers everything from fine dining to burgers, bagels, and burritos all across the Bay Area. In April, she decided to go to a restaurant that's not just famous in her neck of the woods. It's one of the most esteemed restaurants in the world, The French Laundry in Napa Valley. It's owned by chef Thomas Keller.
5:01 Speaker 01 Thomas Keller is arguably the most famous American chef. Thomas Keller has two, three Michelin star restaurants. Two, three Michelin star restaurants, which is an incredibly unique accomplishment.
5:15 Dan Pashman? Keller consulted on the movie Ratatouille, appeared on the hit TV show The Bear, and was profiled on the Netflix documentary series Chef's Table Legends.
5:25 Speaker 02 Thomas Keller has led the way for several decades now. He is the most important American chef in history.
5:33 Speaker 03 When somebody tells you you have influence to them, that's why I do what I do.
5:40 Dan Pashman? Keller may be the face of fine dining in America, but he came from humble beginnings. His father was a marine drill sergeant, and his mother was a restaurant manager. He moved out of the house at 15 and barely finished high school. After working at a country club in Rhode Island, he knew he wanted to be a professional cook. He climbed the ranks at top restaurants in New York, but he lost his job during the economic downturn of the 90s and moved to California to start over. Here he is in a video story for The Washington Post.
6:06 Speaker 04 I lost my job at the hotel I was working at. I was peddling olive oil at Gelson's or Bristol Farms. I was the guy standing at the end of the aisle with a little table in front of me and pieces of bread with toothpicks in it and a little cup of olive oil.
6:19 Dan Pashman? He was nearly 40 when he saw that the farm-to-table restaurant, The French Laundry, was for sale. It's called that because the building was a French Laundry 100 years ago. Keller had a dream to turn it into a fine dining destination. He just had to figure out a way to raise money to buy it.
6:34 Speaker 04 And I had people's names and phone numbers and I started calling. Over 400 people I contacted. Finally accumulated about 51 who actually wrote checks.
6:43 Dan Pashman? He opened his version of the French Laundry in 1994.
6:47 Speaker 01 And that's where he devised some of his most famous dishes.
6:50 Dan Pashman? Here again is Mackenzie. Many of the dishes Keller's known for are still on the menu at the French Laundry today. One of them is the tuna tartare cornet.
6:58 Speaker 01 It looks like a tiny ice cream cone, except instead of ice cream, it's raw fish. And you know, that was kind of his hallmark, this very like playful dad jokey, um, punny style of cuisine. You know, like what American doesn't love an ice cream cone? But this one is fine dininged, you know? It has like a tuile and then a little bit of crème fraiche and then there's the raw fish. And that really became his hallmark style. He had a dish called tongue and cheek. Get it?
7:29 Dan Pashman? Let me guess, beef tongue and beef cheek?
7:31 Speaker 01 Exactly, exactly.
7:32 Dan Pashman? I, I was at a cocktail party in New York City last night and they were serving tuna tartare cornettes.
7:39 Speaker 01 Of course they were.
7:40 Dan Pashman? That was one of the past hors d'oeuvres.
7:42 Speaker 01 Totally. It's trickled down to mass market catering. His cooking really has changed the landscape of American cuisine. Like a lot of the things that we think of now as just part of the culture, including, I would argue, these elaborate tasting menus are because of him.
7:58 Dan Pashman? So Mackenzie decides she's going to go to the French Laundry. A friend makes a reservation. It would be her first visit since being named the Chronicle's restaurant critic.
8:06 Speaker 01 I was not there to review the French Laundry, but I was there in a work capacity. Like I dine out all the time at restaurants that I'm not intending to review because that's part of my job. It's part of my job to know the dining scene, including this incredibly important restaurant. We're always scouting. We just relaunched our top 100 best restaurants in the Bay Area list. So, you know, I'm considering it for that. I'm considering it for maybe our top fine dining list.
8:28 Dan Pashman? I should say, when you make a reservation at the French Laundry, you prepay for the meal, tax and tip. Mackenzie and her friends each paid $457. That does not include drinks or extras. As a restaurant reviewer, the Chronicle does pay for Mackenzie's meals. So she and her three friends arrived for their reservation at 7:45.
8:51 Speaker 01 We are greeted in the courtyard. We're brought sparkling wine. And the captain, who brings us the sparkling wine, introduces himself as Patrick. And I give my name as Margaret.
9:02 Dan Pashman? So your real name is Mackenzie. You say your name is Margaret.
9:04 Speaker 01 That's right. And, you know, my friend had made the reservation under his name. And this requires, I guess, a little bit of explanation. So I'm not an anonymous critic. There are photos of me out there. I made that decision when I started. But I do try to fly under the radar for as long as possible when I'm in a restaurant, just so that I can simulate the experience that a normal diner might have for as long as possible. But that doesn't mean that I am like trying to, you know, if somebody comes up and is like, are you Mackenzie? I'm gonna say yes.
9:34 Dan Pashman? But if someone asks you, what's your name?
9:36 Speaker 01 I'll say Margaret.
9:42 Dan Pashman? The group waits in the courtyard for half an hour, which seems uncharacteristic. Usually restaurants at this level run on time. Finally, they're seated at 8:15. And the first course comes.
9:53 Speaker 01 Yes, it's a truffle vichy swaz.
9:56 Dan Pashman? That's like a cold soup, right?
9:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, like a leaked potato soup with a lot of truffle and a little espresso cup.
10:01 Dan Pashman? Oh, that does sound good.
10:04 Speaker 01 It was good. It was good.
10:05 Dan Pashman? Yeah. Can you ask for seconds of these things? What if something's really good?
10:08 Speaker 01 That's a great.
10:09 Dan Pashman? Can I get one more?
10:09 Speaker 01 That's a great question.
10:10 Dan Pashman? Can I get one more espresso cup?
10:11 Speaker 01 Like, is it a cruise? You know, like, can you get the lobster and the steak?
10:15 Dan Pashman? I understand that you can't. I wouldn't ask for more and more. But some of those, I haven't been to many, very many meals like this. But like, sometimes the things are so small. And if it's really good, you're kind of like, ah, I'd really love one or two more bites of that.
10:25 Speaker 01 I'll bet you could ask. I think that at a place like that, where you're paying a premium, they might be delighted if you wanted an extra espresso cup of it.
10:33 Dan Pashman? They finish their soup and wait for the next course, which, once again, seems to be taking longer than expected.
10:39 Speaker 01 And then the general manager approaches the table. And he says, will you follow me?
10:45 Dan Pashman? Just to you, not to everyone?
10:46 Speaker 01 Just to me. And so I get up from the table and I say to my dining companions, if I'm not back in 10 minutes, send a search party.
10:56 Speaker 01 Like, you couldn't write that, you know, like, very, very foreshadowing and the filmic adaptation of it.
11:01 Dan Pashman? What are you thinking in that moment?
11:03 Speaker 01 Well, I know at this point I've been recognized. I'm thinking that maybe Thomas Keller is there that evening and, you know, just wants to say hello.
11:14 Dan Pashman? Mackenzie is led to a courtyard outside where there are two benches. She sits down.
11:18 Speaker 01 And then out walks Thomas Keller. He shakes my hand and he says, Thomas, and I say, Mackenzie. And he says, I thought you said your name was Margaret. And there's an edge to it. There's an edge to it.
11:33 Dan Pashman? Now, to understand why Thomas Keller might have an edge in his voice when meeting Mackenzie, you gotta understand that in recent years, reviews of his restaurants haven't been as great as they used to be. In 2016, New York Times critic Pete Wells re-reviewed Keller's other famous restaurant, Per Se, in New York. Pete said the lobster was intransigently chewy and a chestnut puree tasted like peanut butter to which something terrible had been done. One cutting line especially stood out. Pete wrote that the mushroom soup looked as murky and appealing as bong water. The review sent shockwaves around the world of upscale restaurants. In 2019, Soleil Ho, who was the restaurant critic for the San Francisco Chronicle before Mackenzie, had a meal at the French Laundry. Soleil was recognized as a critic and Thomas Keller sent over a mushroom soup in a glass
12:18 Dan Pashman? bong. Soleil took it as a good natured joke, but it's worth noting that Keller got a bad review for his restaurant in New York with this line about bong water, then bought a glass bong and kept it in his restaurant in California for three years, waiting until another critic came in, just so he could spring it on them. Regardless, Soleil ended up writing a negative review of the French Laundry. Then to top it all off, last year, Melissa Clark from the New York Times gave a mixed, but mostly negative review of both Per Se and the French Laundry.
12:50 Speaker 01 Basically, she said that his cuisine was tired and she didn't say that it necessarily was all his fault. You know, to your point about the salmon cornettes at the event that you went to last night, she was, she said that because he had had such an impact on American cuisine. That the food that he is still serving at Per Se and the French Laundry is no longer the type of delightful, innovative surprise that it was when she first dined there and that it now feels a little bit stale.
13:23 Dan Pashman? So between these various reviews, Thomas Keller's restaurants have had a rough go in the last decade. Mackenzie knows all of this as she meets Keller that night in the courtyard.
13:32 Speaker 01 He sits down on the bench that's sort of 90 degrees to mine and immediately I can tell that he's nervous and there's a little tremble in his voice and he seems just ill at ease. He says, I'm nervous, you know, I don't normally do this, you know, I don't know you. And I'm sure you're a nice person, but I don't know why you're here and I'm not really comfortable having you in my restaurant.
13:56 Dan Pashman? He asked Mackenzie to leave.
13:58 Speaker 01 I told him, you know, I understand where you're coming from and if you want me to leave, I will respect that, but can I tell you a little bit about myself? You know, you're right, you don't know me, so can I tell you about myself? And so, you know, I told him that I did have a relationship to the French Laundry. I went there for my college graduation. That's what I asked for from my parents. And I have memories of my parents and my dad who's since passed at the French Laundry. Um, you know, I own his cookbooks, you know, I told him they came from a restaurant family and that I worked as a server. I'm not coming in here as somebody who's unfamiliar with your work. Um, or who is interested in taking you down.
14:39 Dan Pashman? But Keller remains suspicious, especially since Mackenzie gave a fake name earlier.
14:43 Speaker 01 He starts talking about the critic from the New York Times and he can't, he can't quite land on her name. So I try to, I supply it, I say Melissa, I'm referring to Melissa Clark. And he says, yes, Melissa. He says that, you know, they move in similar circles. They had met before. She had been to the French Laundry before. And that when she came to visit last year, she lied. And I remember that word very specifically. She lied. She lied until the last minute.
15:14 Dan Pashman? What did he think she had lied about?
15:16 Speaker 01 Well, that's a great question. At the time I didn't know. I thought it was such an unusual word choice. I couldn't really figure it out and drop a pin in that because later I would discover what he meant.
15:28 Dan Pashman? Oh, a good foreshadowing.
15:29 Speaker 01 Yes, the story is full of it.
15:31 Dan Pashman? We should go to break right here. That's a cliffhanger.
15:37 Dan Pashman? Come to think of it, we should go to break. Coming up, Mackenzie finds out what Melissa Clark had supposedly lied about. But before that, Thomas Keller's got a few more things to get off his chest. And a surprise. That's after the break. Stick around.
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19:14 Dan Pashman? Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Now, as you may have heard, I announced in January that I am returning to Italy to lead another pasta tour this fall. And it sold out very fast, but then two spots opened, but then those spots got filled. But listen, someone else might bail, and I want to encourage you to get on the waiting list, because then that'll put you first in line to grab those spots. And also, first in line if we do this again in 2026, which is looking very likely. Come eat pasta in Rome with Katie Parla. Travel with me to Puglia. Let's eat spaghetti alla sasina at the place where they invented it. Plus, these folks at Culinary Backstreets who put the trip together. I mean, they find all kinds of spots that I didn't even know about. So it's fun for me to go and experience some of my old haunts with you. And also, we get to experience some new stuff and new delicious foods all together. So get on that waiting list for this year's trip and next
19:59 Dan Pashman? year's trip. Go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful.
20:05 Dan Pashman? All right, let's get back to the show. And a quick note that there is a tiny bit of profanity in this part of the episode. When we left off, San Francisco Chronicle restaurant critic Mackenzie Chung Fagan was talking with chef Thomas Keller outside his restaurant. He had asked her to leave, but then the conversation continued.
20:21 Speaker 01 He wanted to talk about the French chef, Michel Richard.
20:25 Dan Pashman? Michel Richard was a well-known chef and restaurateur. In 2016, he died due to complications from a stroke.
20:31 Speaker 01 And he said that the New York Times had written a review of his New York restaurant. He had had much success in DC and LA, and then he decided to open this New York restaurant, and that the New York Times had written this very brutal review. He said that, you know, Michel was a friend of his and that two years later, he was dead. And that when he writes his memoirs, he will write about how that review contributed to his death.
20:59 Dan Pashman? I mean, that's a lot to put on you.
21:03 Speaker 01 Right, you know, in case it's not clear, I've never met him before. I've never written about him before.
21:09 Dan Pashman? Wow, that, yeah, that's intense.
21:10 Speaker 01 And, you know, all of this is sort of in service of this larger theme, which is that he feels like food media and critics in particular, in a previous era, were on the same team as chefs, and that there's been a shift.
21:28 Dan Pashman? Keller mentions a critic for the Chronicle from many years ago, who he says he considered a friend. That critic wrote glowing reviews of the French laundry. But back then, everyone was writing glowing reviews of Keller's restaurants. That was true until Pete Wells reviewed Per Se in 2016. That was the one with the line about the mushroom soup looking like bong water. Keller still hasn't forgotten that piece. In fact, he tells Mackenzie how frustrated he is that the Times continues to link to it whenever his name is mentioned.
21:54 Speaker 01 I understand what he's saying. Like, that must be really awful to see your name in the New York Times, cool, and then know what's going to follow it is a link to one of your most embarrassing moments as a chef, or, you know, just a review that you think is unfair, probably.
22:16 Speaker 01 So we end up talking for about half an hour. It's pretty wide ranging. And then he kind of draws the conversation to a close. And he says, you know, okay, that's enough. We've been talking out here for a while. And it was true, you know, it was pretty cold at that point. There was a heat lamp, but it was still, you know, a spring Napa evening. And a server had brought out glasses of water, which I was very grateful for. And, you know, it's now like nine o'clock and I've had an espresso cup of soup. And I'm also just, you know, adrenaline's just like coursing through my body. Like this is, I just know in the moment, I'm like, this is such a crazy thing that's happening to me.
22:58 Dan Pashman? There's the conversation that's happening and there's the thoughts that are running through your head.
23:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, immediately when he asked me to leave and when he was showing me this vulnerability, I just felt emotional, like I could feel like tears gathering along my lash line. I felt so embarrassed too. I was like, God, like I'm, I'm sitting here with, you know, this, the chef and like, I'm, I'm like, I don't know, I'm, I'm getting emotional. Because it's hard watching someone you respect, you know, a famous person be nervous or be afraid of you in some way, or, you know, just be vulnerable. It's like your dad telling you that he's scared. But also I'm, I'm feeling like this is so unfair.
23:45 Speaker 01 Like I, I didn't write a negative review about you or your friend or, you know, I, I kind of just got here. I'm new to the job. I'm doing my best and I don't know. I just, I just felt like it was, there wasn't a sense of justice to it.
24:06 Speaker 01 So after the conversation, he says, why don't I walk you back inside? We'll feed you a little something before you go. And I stop him and I say, if you still feel like you don't want me here, I respect that. But I kind of want to get on my way. I've got a long drive home. And he said, no, no, we'll feed you a little something. That would be rude. And then he walks me back inside and I see a shift in him. From Thomas Keller Live to Thomas Keller is now sort of like in media mode because he's decided he's going to cook for me.
24:44 Dan Pashman? And then you sit back down and what happens?
24:45 Speaker 01 Well, I sit back down and my dining companions were like, what just happened? Where have you been?
24:51 Dan Pashman? Have they been fed anything while you were waiting?
24:53 Speaker 01 No, no, they've been-
24:54 Dan Pashman? So they've been sitting there with no updates on your whereabouts for the past half hour?
24:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, and they asked, you know? They did as they were told and after 10 minutes, they started asking. And the best that they got was, you know, oh, she and chef are having a heart to heart. So they're concerned, you know, and they're like, what just happened? And, you know, I sort of managed to tell one of them, like, he asked me to leave, but I think we're like gonna get like a grilled cheese sandwich before we go. I have no idea what's about to happen, right? And then a server comes by and says, you know, chef Keller would like to cook for you. Is that okay? And then the sommelier comes by and says, chef Keller has asked me to select wines. You know, what do you like to drink? And then the food starts coming out and, you know, we get the tuna cornet comes out
25:42 Speaker 01 and he ends up sending an entire tasting menu. And we get the extras, you know? He comes out in person and shaves truffles, which again, would have been a supplement on some of our dishes.
25:54 Dan Pashman? By supplement, she means an extra charge. I should say, I did ask Mackenzie how the food was, but she declined to answer. She said she didn't go there to review the restaurant. She told Thomas Keller she wasn't there to review it. And she feels she should honor that by not commenting one way or another on the food. Anyway, at this point, it's getting very late and dinner isn't close to being over.
26:14 Speaker 01 Before the proteins arrive, around 11, we get pulled for a tour.
26:21 Speaker 01 And so then we go on like a 45 minute tour of the grounds and Thomas Keller is, you know, escorting us through the kitchen. He's showing us the very cool geothermal system that he's had installed. We get to see the office, which has this collection, very large collection of plates that have been signed by celebrities. The first person to do it was Michael Jordan. You know, he really wants to show off his things at this point. The cigar collection, the wine room. It's all, you know, very impressive.
26:52 Dan Pashman? Now, it must be close to midnight. You get back to the table.
26:55 Speaker 01 Get back to the table, you know, have the main proteins. Dessert comes out. You know, my guest is celebrating a birthday. There's like a beautiful sparkler in one of the desserts. And then the check comes and you prepay at the French Laundry, as at many of these, you know, fancy places, expensive places. And the check comes and in the leather check presenter, it says dinner is courtesy of Chef Keller. And we are told that he has refunded our prepaid meal.
27:27 Dan Pashman? This was like a $1,700 meal.
27:29 Speaker 01 I mean, it was $1,800 that we prepaid. So including tax and tip, you know, not including the wines.
27:37 Dan Pashman? All right. So including the wine that you drank, it could have been.
27:40 Speaker 01 I mean, I have no idea. You know, the wines were poured for us. We didn't select them. I don't know.
27:44 Dan Pashman? And so now what are you thinking? Now they've comped your whole dinner.
27:48 Speaker 01 I'm thinking, oh crap. Like this is a problem. I think that a lot of people don't quite understand the repercussions that might have for a journalist or a critic. We have to maintain journalistic objectivity. We can't accept gifts. But especially if you're a restaurant critic, chefs do try to send out free dishes from time to time. And I either have to add it on to the tip or ask for it to be added to my bill. Because if this is a situation where I might be considering, am I going to review this restaurant? It could be perceived as an attempt to curry favor. It's a big no-no.
28:24 Dan Pashman? This is one of the key differences between a professional restaurant critic at a major media outlet and a social media influencer. You don't know whether the influencer was offered a free meal or special treatment in exchange for their post. They may even have been paid by the restaurant and not disclosed it. So for someone in Mackenzie's job, it's really important that she does not accept free meals. And Thomas Keller's dealt with critics for decades. It seems fair to assume he knows this rule. But he comped her meal anyway.
28:51 Speaker 01 So, you know, I say, oh, you know, that is so generous. You know, thank you so much, but, but really we must pay. And no, no, no, no, it's already done. You know, you're welcome. And then the server leaves the room and, you know, I say to my guests, I'm like, like, what do I do? It's late at this point. Thomas Keller's already said, good night. You know, we're the only people in the restaurant.
29:12 Dan Pashman? Right, right.
29:13 Speaker 01 And, you know, I say, like, please, you have to help me. Like, I could get in a lot of trouble here. Like, can we pay for this meal? How do we do it?
29:21 Dan Pashman? The server leaves and comes back with a check for $1. So Mackenzie's group leaves an $1,800 tip.
29:28 Speaker 01 That is how we ended up trying to pay for our meal.
29:34 Dan Pashman? By basically paying for the whole thing as a tip?
29:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:37 Dan Pashman? You leave the restaurant. Now you kind of have a long ride home. Like, what are you thinking that night as you're sort of processing what just happened?
29:44 Speaker 01 There was a moment during the dinner where one of my friends leaned over and said, "You have to write about this." And I just felt ill. I was like, oh, my God, I guess I do. Like, I really mean it when I say that I did not go to the French Laundry intending to write anything. And then all of a sudden, it became clear that, like, I, I was in a story.
30:19 Dan Pashman? Mackenzie decides to write about her experience. The first thing she does is try to figure out what actually happened when New York Times writer Melissa Clark dined at the French Laundry. She's the critic Keller said had lied to him.
30:29 Speaker 01 So Melissa's visit was fascinating. And when I heard about it, I felt I was right back in the French Laundry. It was so similar to my experience in some ways. So Melissa had first dined up, per se, not in disguise and was recognized immediately. And so when she went to the French Laundry, she decided that she was going to go in disguise. So she went with a wig, she wore different glasses, and she wore a dress that she normally wouldn't have worn. And she'd created a persona for herself as well. So when she arrived at the French Laundry and Thomas Keller came out, he sort of looked
31:11 Speaker 01 at her and said, "Don't I know you from New York?" And Melissa felt that he was not certain. And so she said, "No, I live in Santa Monica." Her party got a tour, and the whole time, much like I felt initially, she wasn't sure if she had been recognized. She felt like she probably had not been. And then when she sat down at the table, that's when she realized, no, she had been made. Servers started coming by, saying, "Oh, you live in Santa Monica? What are your favorite restaurants? Where do you like to hang out? In LA?" And then the bong comes. She got the bong too.
31:54 Speaker 01 And in this case, there was a note on it that said, "For P. Wells."
31:59 Dan Pashman? When Keller said "she lied," that's what he meant.
32:02 Speaker 01 Yes.
32:03 Dan Pashman? She used a fake name, she used a disguise, and even when he said, "Don't I know you from New York?" She said, "No."
32:08 Speaker 01 Yes, that's what he meant by "she lied."
32:11 Dan Pashman? Quick note: We did reach out to Melissa Clark for comment, but we didn't hear back. This is one of the things I'm turning over in my head, Mackenzie, which is like, I certainly understand from your perspective and the perspective of other restaurant critics that your job is to try to evaluate a restaurant objectively. So you don't want special treatment because that's not the experience average diners are going to have. So if you get special treatment, then your evaluation isn't really useful to your readers. So that makes a lot of sense to me. I also can understand from a chef's perspective, how when somebody makes a reservation under a fake name, wears sunglasses, wears a wig, goes through any number of these
32:52 Dan Pashman? various sort of strategic moves, I can understand from the chef's perspective how they could feel somewhat deceived, or that someone is trying to deceive them. And even if it's in pursuit of an honest review, from their perspective, I could understand how they might not love that.
33:10 Speaker 01 Sure. Yeah, I, I can get that. Restaurant critics have been wearing disguises for decades, you know, like this is not a new, this is not a new thing. I guess what is new is that all of our photos are broadcast over the internet. So perhaps it's easier to spot critics. But this idea that like, um, I don't know, this has been like a weird fucked up dance that like critics and chefs have been doing since there were restaurants and since there were critics, right?
33:42 Dan Pashman? Right. I mean, I remember, I think it was a profile of Pete Wells in The New Yorker that talked about like, some chefs recognize him, but they have to pretend that they haven't recognized him.
33:51 Speaker 01 Exactly. It's kabuki theater. And this is why when I became a critic, I decided that I was not going to be anonymous, because I really don't think that anonymity, at least at restaurants like The French Laundry, is real.
34:02 Dan Pashman? So there's something a little bit disingenuous in both directions.
34:05 Speaker 01 Totally. It's a charade. It's a charade where it's like, okay, I'm gonna pretend that you don't know who I am, and you're pretending that I don't know that you know who I am. And I don't know, I think that what has shifted in this case is the critical perception of Thomas Keller's restaurants. I think like, as the reviews have gotten negative, the ways in which critics do or don't enter his restaurant has started to become more of a problem for him.
34:33 Dan Pashman? Right. But like, one of the things I appreciated about your piece, this piece could easily have been written as a hit piece, and I don't think it was. There was almost at points in the piece, moments where I felt a little, I have to admit, I felt a little sorry for him. I felt sorry for you at certain points because I felt like you were being placed in a very difficult situation. But I also felt at some moments, your characterization made him sound to me like a sort of wounded little boy. It seemed like he really had had his feelings hurt by these bad reviews.
35:01 Speaker 01 I think he has. And I don't think that he would admit that to me or to anyone else. You know, in fact, when he said that he wasn't comfortable having me in his restaurant, he said, you know, I don't care about the reviews, but the young chefs who work for me, they care.
35:15 Dan Pashman? That's bullshit. We all know. I mean, any time, any time, any, anyone, especially any public person says, I don't care what anyone thinks of me. Who doesn't care what anyone thinks of them? There's nobody who doesn't care at all. Some people care more than others, but everybody cares a little bit about what other people think of them.
35:29 Speaker 01 Of course. And look, I'm not going to equate, you know, what I do with what he does, but we do both create something and put it out in the world and then people have reactions to it, right? And I appreciate your saying that you didn't think it was a hit piece. Not everyone agrees with you. I've been receiving plenty of emails that take issue with, with how I characterized this encounter with a beloved chef. And, you know, of course, it's hard. It's hard to receive criticism from somebody you don't know. And it can be hurtful. It can make you defensive. It can cause you to be, well, say, well, who are you? Who are you to have an opinion? But that's part of the act of creation is that you make something and then it's out
36:13 Speaker 01 there and people get to say what they want to say about it.
36:17 Dan Pashman? Right. That's true. The other thing that, that I started thinking about as I was reading the piece is that, so I, I looked it up. Thomas Keller, 69. He's been doing this a long time. I think any driven, ambitious person, whatever field you're in.
36:36 Dan Pashman? You know, we all want to feel like the arrows are always pointing upward. We're always building, we're always creating, we're always moving on to the next exciting thing. But deep down, we all know that at a certain point, we're going to have to realize that we we have more days behind us than ahead. And most of the things we've done and created that anyone's going to ever remember are in the past. And as I get older, that's like a moment that I think about for myself. Instead of you don't know whether you've hit that moment, I mean, you probably don't know you've hit that moment till you're on the other side of the hill. As I get older and sort of like reflect on my own career like this, and I think about it's like, everyone has that moment at some point in life. I can imagine that being something, so if you're in your 60s and you've been famous
37:18 Dan Pashman? and successful for decades, and then suddenly, within several years, you get a few very bad reviews in top publications after having been this darling for decades. It's more than just a hit to your ego or hurt feelings. It's something like more existential. It's like this could be pointing to the end of the run.
37:39 Speaker 01 I agree with everything you said.
37:46 Dan Pashman? I do want to note, we reached out to Thomas Keller for comment and even invited him to come on the show. A representative of his responded to our request with a two-word email that read, quote, utterly uninteresting.
37:58 Dan Pashman? As I wrapped up with Mackenzie, I had one more question. You talked about the reverence you had for Thomas Keller and his restaurants before going to the French Laundry. This was your graduation gift from college that you asked for your parents. You said, that's what you wanted, you wanted a meal at the French Laundry. How did this experience affect your perception of Thomas Keller?
38:21 Speaker 01 Celebrities have bad nights.
38:24 Speaker 01 Celebrities make weird decisions based on what's going on for them at a given point. I don't know, I'm sure many people have had an experience of of meeting somebody who seems larger than life, or who have had a significant impact on their lives, or, you know, on their industry. And it's always an eye-opening experience to meet the person behind the image.
38:50 Speaker 01 Because it's just a reminder that we're all people with feelings.
38:56 Dan Pashman? That's Mackenzie Chung-Fagan, restaurant critic at the San Francisco Chronicle. We'll link to her article about her experience at the French Laundry in our show notes. Next week on the show, I talk with Dr. Jessica B. Harris. She's the author of High on the Hog and many other influential books that have uncovered the way that West African food and African-American people have fundamentally shaped American cuisine. While I wait for that one, check out last week's show. It's a look at the biggest legal case you probably never heard of about the lengths that Thomas's English muffins would go to protect their beloved nooks and crannies. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that?
39:41 Dan Pashman? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with management producer
39:58 Speaker 01 Emma Morgenstern.
39:59 Dan Pashman? and senior producer
40:00 Speaker 05 Andres O'Hara.
40:02 Dan Pashman? Our engineer is
40:03 Speaker 06 Jared O'Connell.
40:04 Dan Pashman? Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
40:11 Speaker 07 And I'm Andrew from Downey, California, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
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