Oprah and Misty Copeland on Her Remarkable Life & Career that Transformed Dance & More

Oprah sits down with world renowned, history-making ballet dancer Misty Copeland for an intimate and deeply reflective conversation as Misty takes her final bow with the American Ballet Theatre. As the prestigious company’s first Black female principal dancer, Misty looks back on her incomparable career that changed the face of classical ballet by expanding who gets to be seen, centered and celebrated on the world’s most iconic stages. We also hear from one of Misty’s longtime mentors whose guidance helped shape her career along with listeners of all ages from across the country seeking Misty’s wisdom, encouragement and perspective as they pursue their own unique paths. Misty shares lessons on resilience, courage and gratitude we can all learn from as well as the legacy she hopes to continue building for young dancers of color. Misty shares her rigorous process of preparing for her final dance at her retirement gala of which Oprah serves as co-chair. Presented by Walmart, this episode celebrates Misty’s inspiring path and the joy of sharing your unique gifts with the world. Misty also discusses her two newest books: Letters to Misty: How to Move Through Life with Confidence and Grace and Bunheads, Act 2: The Dance and Courage, which you can find on Walmart.com. BUY THE BOOKS: Letters to Misty: How to Move Through Life with Confidence and Grace https://amzn.to/4fTcxCG Bunheads, Act 2: The Dance and Courage https://amzn.to/4bpboQG 00:00:00 - Welcome Misty Copeland, Author of Letters to Misty 00:02:45 - Performing One Last Time: Her Emotions 00:06:28 - Knowing When It’s Time to Step Away 00:08:20 - Physical + Emotional Pain Behind Dancing 00:10:50 - Imagining Her Final Bow 00:13:21 - Misty’s Childhood 00:15:15 - How the Boys and Girls Club Impacted Her 00:18:15 - Invitation to American Ballet Theatre 00:19:00 - Being the Only Black Woman at ABT 00:23:05 - Welcome former ABT director John Meehan 00:25:15 - Challenges of Starting Ballet Later in Life 00:26:50 - Debbie Allen’s Impact on Her Career 00:28:55 - Advice for Young Dancers of Color 00:31:28 - What She Wants People to Know About Ballet 00:32:35 - Life + Goals Beyond Ballet 00:36:16 - The Loneliness of Being a Trailblazer 00:42:25 - Painting Ballet Shoes to Match Her Skin Tone 00:45:42 - Misty and her siblings now 00:47:42 - Misty on her husband 00:48:50 - Becoming ABT Principal Dancer Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  This episode of the Oprah Podcast is presented by Walmart. Do you feel that it is, obviously, your training, obviously, the work, but there's also something watching you is like something divine is also happening?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  I've felt that from the moment I started dancing, that it has been something that I've needed. It's been a part of my survival. It's been a part of the way that I've escaped so much adversity throughout my life.

• 0:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Hey there, and thank you for listening and watching the Oprah Podcast. And hello to all of you who are seeing us on YouTube. Really glad to be here with you all today. I am in my teahouse with a, what is the word? You are a phenomenal woman in the greatest sense of the word. And everything that Maya Angelou meant when she wrote that poem, phenomenal. You're also a trailblazer who has transformed the face of ballet, of dance, and so much more. She is a transcendent talent, Misty Copeland. She was the first Black female principal dancer at the illustrious American Ballet Theater.

• 1:12Oprah Winfrey?

  And now, after 25 years, I like that number, she's taking her final bow. She's written over 10 books and in two new children's books, Letters to Misty and Bunhead's Act II. She shares the lessons that kept her on her toes, literally, while making history. Welcome, welcome.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:33Oprah Winfrey?

  I know, all these years we've

• 1:35Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Never, never, how did that happen?

• 1:38Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:39Oprah Winfrey?

  I think you did, we did something with you on the Oprah Show about remembering your spirit or super soul or something we did. But I wasn't there, but I wasn't there. So we're recording this conversation. It's September right now. And your retirement gala, which I have agreed to be on the board as a co-chair for, and I did that just so I could meet you. And then this happens. The gala's in October.

• 2:10Oprah Winfrey?

  And so this podcast will be airing after that. After announcing her retirement, Misty Copeland took her final bow on October 22nd at the world-renowned American Ballet Theater, where she spent 25 barrier-breaking years of her life as a ballerina. I had the honor of co-chairing that gala on a starry night at the Lincoln Center in New York City. After her performance, Misty stood at center stage and received a 15-minute standing ovation.

• 2:43Oprah Winfrey?

  So that would have been your first public performance in five years. So what's going through your mind now as you're preparing for it?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  You know, it's taken a lot for me to get back on stage.

• 2:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you've been off for...

• 3:02Speaker 01

  I didn't want to. I really have been struggling with what it means for me to be back on stage at this point in my career. And so...

• 3:16Oprah Winfrey?

  So it's been five years?

• 3:17Speaker 01

  It's been five years. And it was my choice to kind of step back and just really reassess what it is I'm doing on the stage. You know, I've done so much throughout my career and represented my community and what it is to not fit a mold. And I feel like I've said so much, and there's so much more work to be done. And I feel like that has to be done off the stage. And so it's that combined with a lot of things. I think just burnout from having injury and being in pain for so many years, that

• 3:59Speaker 01

  you kind of lose that sparkle, that passion for it. And so... It's been really intense getting back to the stage. Not just physically, but emotionally and psychologically. I mean, all of those things have to really be in sync and connected. You know, it's the same with-

• 4:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Now you're a mom.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  And now I'm a mom, which completely changes everything. My body is completely different and it's really a new body that I'm in, you know, approaching, doing the work I've done my whole life. But I feel like I've gotten over that hump of feeling frustrated or feeling, you know, that I'm doing this because I want to say thank you to all of the people who've supported me, but I'm at a point now where I want to do it for myself and-

• 4:46Oprah Winfrey?

  The final dance.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  The final dance with American Ballet Theater.

• 4:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  And I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really excited. Again, I feel like I've gotten over that hump where I'm not just kind of like hanging on by my fingernails because it's physically so difficult to get back into that kind of shape. But now I'm like, okay, I'm in a groove. I'm rehearsing the pieces that I will perform and they're all so meaningful to me. So it's like this beautiful love letter to my classical career and to American Ballet Theater.

• 5:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Psychologically, I understand that thing of, I remember making the decision after 25 years to no longer do the Oprah Show. And it wasn't one thing, it was a series of things. It's like, I realized that I'd reached a point where I was asking the same questions and I could not muster the same excitement for, what is that eyelash you're wearing? I mean, if I did another makeover, I mean, in the beginning, I was excited about everybody and their excitement about the makeover and then I just realized, I don't know another way to say that, that is coming from a true self and I always wanted to not be doing it if it wasn't completely authentic.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I completely relate to that. I completely relate to it. And, you know, I feel like I got to a place, it was in 2019, I got to a place where I just, I felt like, I always told myself, I guess similarly to you, that I would, I wouldn't do it if I didn't feel-

• 6:25Oprah Winfrey?

  I said, I don't want them dragging me out with the microphone.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 6:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And how did you know you were ready to step away?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  My, the last performance I was supposed to dance was the lead in the ballet Giselle at the Kennedy Center in DC. And it's one of my favorite roles. And I had injured my back and I had to pull out of the performance the morning of the show. And I remember feeling relieved and not sad. And I was like, this is not a good sign. And I really need to kind of step back and evaluate what's going on and why I'm feeling this way. You know, and I think, I think it was, again, a culmination of, you know, 20 years of performing, you know, up until that point and dealing with a severe injury that, you know, I had a surgery on my tibia.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  I had a plate screwed in after six stress fractures. And even after having this surgery, I was still performing in a lot of pain. And I just feel like I got to a point where that excitement kind of wore off and that, you know, working towards this goal of becoming a principal dancer. And now I was just exhausted in every way, you know, especially mentally and emotionally exhausted to have to muster up that energy to get on stage and rehearse, you know, day after day. And again, I just felt like, I feel like being a black body on the stage, I've done what I needed to do. And now there's so much other work that needs to be done offstage and behind the scenes

• 8:01Speaker 01

  and sitting on boards of these, you know, theaters and institutions that don't have artists and don't have black women. And that my voice, I think, will have an impact in a different way by not being on the stage anymore.

• 8:16Oprah Winfrey?

  I can't imagine, and I don't think anyone else who's watching us or listening to us can imagine the physical pain and the emotional preparation necessary to do what you do. I mean, were you just saying, you know, your tibia is shattered and you're still dancing and you're in pain? And when you're doing that to us, it looks like you're actually in another world, that you, something comes over you or comes into you that allows you to be what you are onstage. Do you feel that? That it is, that is, that it is, obviously, your training, obviously, the work, but there's also something

• 9:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Watching you is like something divine is also happening.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  I've felt that from the moment I started dancing. That it's been so much more to me than just going out there and having fun or because I'm good at it. It has been something that I've needed. It's been a part of my survival. It's been a part of the way that I've escaped, you know, so much adversity throughout my life.

• 9:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  And so whenever I would, whether I was in a ballet studio or performing on a stage, it was the first time that I felt this sense of security and safety, that no one could do anything to me when I was up there on the stage and something took over. And it's literally like your toe crosses that threshold between backstage and, you know, the sidelines before you get on stage. And I become the character as soon as I'm out there. And all of that pain and all of those worries and distractions go away. And so, but your body can only tolerate that for so long.

• 10:12Oprah Winfrey?

  So long, yeah. Yeah, you put your body through a lot.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. I imagine in your own personal meditations, however you do that, you have a lot of gratitude for your body holding up the way it has.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, even more so now, you know. At 43 and having my son Jackson, I'm in a completely different body than I was at 17 when I joined American Ballet Theater. And I have so much gratitude for this body getting me to where I am and having the strength and the resilience and power and vulnerability that it has.

• 10:50Oprah Winfrey?

  What's it gonna feel like to take that last bow from that last dance?

• 10:56Speaker 01

  The closer I get to it, the more emotional it is. A year ago, when I was asked to do it. I just felt like it's been five years. I've already really mourned and processed so much. The company is different. So many of the dancers that I grew up with are no longer there. So I felt very removed from it. But now that I'm back in the theater, in the studio, and where I grew up, it's kind of bringing up, not even these memories or emotions from, you know, five years ago, but like back when I first joined.

• 11:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Really?

• 11:34Speaker 01

  It's very interesting that that's what is coming up. You know, being 18, 19 years old and first entering into the company. And I think this sense of, you know, as you were saying, gratitude for the opportunity and for this life that I've been given because of ballet and the person that I've become because of ballet.

• 11:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Are you nervous at all?

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I'm not.

• 11:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Of course not.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  I'm not. I've never been someone that really gets nervous. So I, to me, it's like I'm the most comfortable and I feel the most myself when I'm on stage. So it's my whole life I've been nervous. And so these are the moments when I'm not. So I'm just really excited.

• 12:20Oprah Winfrey?

  After this quick break, Misty Copeland shares the moments and mentors that helped shape her remarkable rise as a pioneering ballet dancer. I'm back with the incomparable Misty Copeland, the prima ballerina who broke through barriers in the dance world. Let's get back to our conversation. I want to go back a little bit in your story because you have written about this before. But for those of you who don't know Misty's whole personal story, let's talk for a moment about your childhood because I think there are such lessons in resilience, in betting on yourself.

• 12:59Oprah Winfrey?

  And what I have come to know at this wizened, ripened age is that not one thing that ever happens to you or you or To me, is wasted.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 13:16Oprah Winfrey?

  So, all the adversity, all the challenges, all the, you know, help to build the woman that you are. So tell us about growing up and your mom and your five siblings and living out of motels and the kind of place nobody would have thought you would have found a ballet dancer.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  I was actually born in Kansas City, Missouri. My mother

• 13:43Speaker 01

  was a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs football team. She loved movement and dance, but she really loved sports and athletics. And so the reason that she did want to become a cheerleader was so that she could be on the field and watch the game. But so that was really ingrained in us. I think this, this love of music and of movement and kind of using our bodies. My mom left my father and picked up with me and my three siblings at the time and moved to Los Angeles. So I was two when I, when I came to Los Angeles. And that was kind of the beginning of the chaos. You know, picking up and moving became this theme throughout my childhood. By the time I was seven years old, we would have six, there would be six children.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  And my mother had married two more times and divorced. And it was when I was introduced to the Boys and Girls Club at seven years old. It was the first time that I felt this sense of belonging and, and home, like a, a real sense of home. Because up until then, we were living in and out of other people's apartments and motels and

• 14:49Oprah Winfrey?

  No stability.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, no stability at all, no consistency.

• 14:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Not feeling safe.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Not feeling safe. There was abuse in the house and

• 15:01Speaker 01

  I became mute, pretty much. I mean, I was so introverted and didn't have a voice. And I didn't want people to know what was going on in my, you know, home environment. So I thought if I don't say anything, they won't know.

• 15:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Was it abuse to the kids or was it abuse to your mother?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Both.

• 15:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Both.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  And so that was my way of coping, was just to not have Close relationships and um the Boys and Girls Club was the first time that I feel like I kind of started to break out of that shell and had this sense of safety and the first time I was introduced to the word mentor and and what it meant to have other

• 15:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Boys and Girls Club saved so many lives.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  So many lives, which is why you know I'm still very much a part of that community.

• 15:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, it's one of the things that I did, you know, I've done a lot of things as I know you've done a lot of charitable things, but one of the things I'm most proud of is I went back to my community in Casayasco, Mississippi and built a Boys and Girls Club.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  No way.

• 15:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh.

• 15:57Oprah Winfrey?

  In a Tala County, Casayasco, Mississippi, there's Oberlin for Boys and Girls Club.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  I have to visit that one because I have visited so many.

• 16:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, if you're going to Tala County, I'm gonna come join you.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 16:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, but yes, it saved and and and one of the reasons I invested in that is because it saves children's lives.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  You're meeting them where they are.

• 16:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  You're meeting them in their communities, you're not pulling them out, uh you know, there's I was surrounded by people who looked like me and understood where I was coming from and the community that I grew up in and so that was really the first time that I started to kind of feel like an individual apart from my siblings.

• 16:38Oprah Winfrey?

  And then as a young teenager, you ended up moving in with

• 16:43Speaker 01

  With my ballet teacher.

• 16:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, with your ballet teacher.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  It was at 13 on the basketball court at the Boys and Girls Club that I that I discovered ballet and it was from that ballet teacher that I would live with Cindy Bradley.

• 16:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Cindy Bradley.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  She um she was looking for diverse students to bring into her school on scholarship and I happened to be one of them at the Boys and Girls Club. She said she thought I was a prodigy from the moment she touched my foot, she says. She saw me move and I I went to her school on scholarship and it was really difficult for my mom, she didn't have a car, to get me back and forth, you know, to the ballet school and that was far from a priority of hers with, you know, working two jobs and raising six children. So my teacher offered to have me live with her and I ended up living with her for three years um so that I could really focus on the training since 13 is considered a late age to start dancing. Um and I would move to New York City after only four years.

• 17:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Really late to start dancing.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Very late.

• 17:38Oprah Winfrey?

  You see little girls are doing it at three years old, yes.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  So after only four years of training, um I was invited by American Ballet Theater to move to New York City um and join their company.

• 17:51Oprah Winfrey?

  There was a moment where you were also invited to go to the Dance Theater of Harlem, and you turned that down. And I think that, you know, that's a very prestigious company, where you would have been surrounded by dancers who looked like you, but you knew what?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  It was early on in my career, it was pretty recent, you know, after I had moved to New York and joined American Ballet Theater. And it all hit me, you know, that I was the only black woman in the company, a company of 80 dancers. And I started to really lose myself and my purpose, I guess, and how I could contribute to this company. Like, where would my path go? And it was in that time that Arthur Mitchell, the founder of the Dance Theater of Harlem, he was also the first black principal dancer at the New York City Ballet, and he came into my life. And he was mentoring me, and he invited me to take company class with the Dance Theater of Harlem. And right there on the spot, he offered me a soloist contract, which was a huge deal for a 21-year-old who was in the corps de

• 18:57Speaker 01

  ballet of American Ballet Theater. He said, "Why don't you come here, where you don't have to worry about being different. You'll just be like everyone else." And I really thought about it. I went home and I thought about it. And I just felt like American Ballet Theater was my dream company. And if we don't take that step, how will we ever see progress and change?

• 19:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  In these white companies?

• 19:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  And so, I turned him down. And I think it was-

• 19:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Were you scared to turn him down?

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Terrified.

• 19:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  I mean, he's a legend, and he's offering me the opportunity of a lifetime.

• 19:35Oprah Winfrey?

  I would think that that would be very intimidating.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  It was very intimidating, but I knew that I had a bigger understanding of what it was I wanted to do.

• 19:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Even at 21?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And you'd only been dancing at that point for eight years?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. You say, in Letters to Misty, which is a beautiful book, and I'm gonna have you sign one to my great nieces, because I think it's wonderful if you're- Trying to discover yourself and trying to figure things out about your life. You say on page 19, "Being the only black woman at American Ballet Theater for the first 10 years of my career was incredibly tough. There were days when I questioned if I belonged." And you go on to say, "I came to realize that if I didn't present myself with confidence, if I didn't act like I belong, then how could I expect anyone else to see me that way?" How were you able to do this?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  You know, Arthur Mitchell had a big part to do with that, that understanding. I remember that first time I came into the Dance Theatre of Harlem building, and he said to me, "You have to walk in this room like you are a queen, like you belong here, because if you don't believe it, no one else is going to believe it." And it completely changed the way I thought about how I carried myself. That it wasn't just about how I performed on a stage, but it's how I'm always carrying myself, that, you know...

• 21:04Oprah Winfrey?

  If you don't believe it, nobody else will.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  If I don't believe it, no one else will. And it definitely changed my perspective.

• 21:09Oprah Winfrey?

  I think that is the truth for so many people who now suffer from imposter syndrome. I think a lot of people don't believe it themselves and therefore see how other people don't believe it, because that's also what they're projecting. And other people may not believe it. It doesn't matter if other people believe it, as long as you believe it. I will tell you, one of the reasons why I was able to be so successful in my business and in syndication is because when I did the contract and I said, "I want 50% if we get to this number, if we sell this many stations and if we get this." And they said, "Okay." You know why?

• 21:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Because they didn't believe it would happen. They didn't believe it. If they had known that it was gonna happen, I would have never gotten that deal. So, one of the dedications that you do in Letters to Misty, it reads, "To your mentors, your teachers, and your loved ones, you are the foundation of dreams realized. The foundation of dreams realized." And there's a man named John Meehan, who was the director of American Ballet Theaters, studio company, when Misty joined at just 16 years old. And he is now joining us on Zoom. Hello.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 22:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Hello, John Meehan. What did you see in Misty at 16?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  What did I see? Well, I saw, I suppose you would say, endless potential.

• 22:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Endless potential.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  And she had the limbs to speak as a real ballet dancer. You know, we speak with our limbs, so they have to be a certain shape. Hers were outstanding, especially her beautifully arched feet. She actually pointed her foot. Was it Cindy Bradley you pointed it for, Misty?

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  And she said immediately, "You're a ballet dancer," just from pointing her foot.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  But she had all of the basics. She was limber, she could turn, she could jump. She was a charming person. And it was as if somebody had given me a perfect canvas, a primed canvas, the best oil paints and best brushes, and said, "Here, make something wonderful." And we began, and we did, I think.

• 23:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:35Oprah Winfrey?

  What has it meant for you to, John, watch Misty's career and the way she has navigated her place in the world? What has that meant for you to see that, first of all, affirm what you saw in her and affirm it at a level that you never even expected? I mean, because the world never expected this from her.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  I wasn't surprised that she became a principal dancer. And I think Misty knows that. I think I said it to her quite a few times.

• 24:08Oprah Winfrey?

  But did you believe him when he first said it to you, Misty?

• 24:11Speaker 01

  I did believe John, but it would change in the years after.

• 24:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Well, when I kind of passed her along to the main company, I was I was able to stand back and watch her develop. It was very frustrating for me and for her that she had time away with injuries. And, you know, I think a little bit of that is because she started later in life. Even when you start very young, your muscles, sinews, bones, everything is getting a kind of a strength that Misty didn't have, starting at 13. So she had to kind of battle that, I think, really your whole career. Would you say that's fair?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I think it was a combination of things. I think also maybe not even because I'd started later, I didn't maybe go to a professional ballet school, you know, one of the big companies and big schools. Is I didn't really understand how to take care of my body. I didn't really think of it as as my instrument. And, you know, what I was putting into it, how I was fueling it, how I was cross-training, all of those things. It was also natural to me that I just kind of did it. And, you know, John's belief in me, your belief in me was everything, you know, from a young age. But once I joined the company and I no longer had this almost parental father figure, you know, holding my hand

• 25:35Speaker 01

  and you're kind of thrust into this adult world on your own now, it became very real, you know, what it was, not just to be someone who maybe wasn't completely strong enough and ready, but also as a black woman who felt very alone. Um, which I felt uh just made it a lot more difficult for me.

• 25:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm hmm. John, thank you so much for joining us and saying hello.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  I love you.

• 26:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  I love you back.

• 26:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks so much. Thanks so much.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 26:06Oprah Winfrey?

  I know Debbie Allen was also a mentor for you.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 26:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yes, Debbie Debbie came into my life very early. Cindy Bradley, my first teacher, was very conscious and thoughtful about how she kind of prepared me in the best way she could to enter into the ballet world. You know, she was thoughtful of the fact that I was the only black woman, girl, for the most part at her school. And how am I going to prepare this young girl to enter into the dance world?

• 26:32Oprah Winfrey?

  So Debbie's such an icon. What did she model for you?

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Debbie came into my life and showed me what it was to lead. She showed me what it was to um to be proud of her community and where and you know where she came from and bringing her community with her everywhere she goes. She leads with joy and with love and community is always at the base of it.

• 26:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely. And I think what's so wonderful, and one of the reasons why I know you wrote Letters to Misty, is that you have this desire to give back and mentor in the same way that John and Debbie and Cindy and others have mentored you. And to be able to be a voice for these young girls who are watching you and seeing the possibility of what might be for them through you.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  It's it's so vital. You know, I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't have the support that I had from early on in my career and throughout my career. And so I know how important it is to have that.

• 27:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Time for a quick break. Up next, Misty Copeland takes questions from listeners around the country. If you know someone who might take something away from this conversation, like Misty's lessons on resilience, please share the link with them. We'll be right back. Hi, welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I hope Misty Copeland's story inspires you to recognize the power you have to uplift yourself and the people around you. If this conversation speaks to you, pass it on to a friend who may be in need of a little inspiration. We heard from a lot of our podcast listeners who want your advice. 11-year-old Savannah is with us and she has been a competitive dancer now for eight years and dreams of being a professional dancer, I hear.

• 28:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Like Radio City Music Hall as a Rockette or maybe even a ballerina. Oh, I see Misty's book on the shelf. Very good.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  It's nice to meet you.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  Nice to meet you, too. I have one question. Will it be your advice for a dancer like me wanting to be just like you in the ballet world? And especially as a dancer of color like me?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. You know, I really think that it's about everything we've been talking about, Oprah. You know, I think it's really about surrounding yourself with a circle of support and community who will be there to support you on those difficult days. It's not always going to be joyful and laughs, but it's going to be a lot of hard work and a lot of ups and downs. And it's so vital that you have people around you who will be there for you and who look like you and understand the journey that you're on.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  It's so nice to meet you.

• 29:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you have something else you wanted to ask? I saw a whole big, long list of questions you had.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  I'm also wondering, why did you pick ABT to be your school you wanted to go to?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  What a great question.

• 29:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  You know, at the time when I was starting to train, there weren't a lot of options in terms of seeing people that looked like me and who looked like you in professional schools and professional companies. ABT was the closest I saw to diversity in terms of their cultural diversity. They had dancers from all over the world that could come into the studio company, come into the company. And so my teacher and myself, like, we felt like it was the best fit for me as a young black girl.

• 30:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And was this your question, too? What do you think about when you walk on stage for a performance? Did you have that question?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  When I'm walking on the stage, I'm literally transforming into whatever character I'm portraying. It's literally that magical moment when you become the music. You become one with the orchestra and with the choreography. And so I may be listening to Drake right before, but as soon as I step onto that stage, I am, you know, Odette O'Neal or whatever character I'm portraying.

• 30:42Oprah Winfrey?

  What is the one thing you would want people to know that you experience or feel through ballet that they, most people wouldn't think about? Or no?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that most people think about kind of this rigidness and being really pulled together and uptight, and I feel this extreme sense of release and freedom that might be the opposite from the way that a lot of people envision classical ballet.

• 31:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, because it is so rigid, but you feel extreme freedom.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Freedom.

• 31:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and release. Do you feel that when you're dancing, Savannah? What do you feel when you're dancing? Tell us what it feels like when you enter the stage.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  When I usually want to enter the stage, I just feel like I'm there and I'm doing this. Like, I don't think about what other people are looking or thinking about. I just think about what I'm thinking and how such an honor this is to be doing that.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 31:40Oprah Winfrey?

  To be doing it.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  That is the way to think about it.

• 31:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you so much, Savannah, for joining us. Thank you.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 31:47Oprah Winfrey?

  That's great. Bye. Jen is joining us from Los Angeles. She was a professional cheerleader for both the NBA and NFL for years. And recently, you retired from that, I hear, Jen? What's your question for Misty?

• 32:03Speaker 04

  Hi, thank you so much for having me, Subi Misty. It's been such a great honor to follow your career first and foremost.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 32:10Speaker 04

  As a Hispanic woman, you know, I've experienced the same of 20, 35 years of dancing. And, you know, thank you for championing us for inclusivity and diversity and putting so much courage out there through movement and through just so much of your heart. And my question is, when I retired after 25 years, you know, my whole life and my schedule has been filled with rehearsals every week and performances. And so there was such a great pause in my sense of identity. Because to your point, dance was a sense of escape and a safe space from adversity and something that was mine through the chaos and that I was good at.

• 32:53Speaker 04

  And so wondering, you know, the next stage, no pun intended, of your life, how are you redefining who Misty is beyond ballet? And what new adventures that may have been put on pause or callings that excite you most about your journey?

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know. That is such a great question. I know, it is such a great question. That's really a good question, really good. For me, at this point in my life, like, there's no moving forward without ballet. It is so ingrained in who I am. It's given me these incredible tools that are transferable in everything I do and will continue to do in my life. So I never think of it as this loss or that I'm leaving it behind. It is forever a part of me and the woman that I am. And it's, and there's a through line in everything that I do, whether it's, you know, on the speaking circuit or the books that I write or my foundation, the production company that

• 33:52Speaker 01

  I have, it's all connected to movement and really changing the narrative and how people view ballet. I think there's a lot of tropes and negativity that surround how people, how people view what it is to be a part of it. And I want to bring that joy and wonder and sense of community that so many experience. And so I just, I'm so grateful for the journey that I've had because of ballet.

• 34:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow, but that's a great question because you would think, I mean, a lot of people, when they have been identified as one thing in their life, when that thing goes away, they lose themselves, become depressed, become, you know, uncertain, confused. So that's why I think it's such a legitimate question.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Were you worried about that yourself as a dancer, Jen?

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Definitely. You know, I did go through the highs and lows of just trying to navigate the next chapter, and I think that's just so human. Because when you give so much of your heart and soul to something for 20-plus years of your life,

• 35:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 35:05Speaker 04

  You know, there's that grieving that Misty spoke about is very real. And I think it's something to also make so normalized of just like, you grieve loss in different ways and loss of a career, a loss of a dedication to a passion that you've excelled at and opened many doors for people and women that need to be represented.

• 35:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Wonderful. Thank you, Jen. Thank you for that. Thanks so much. Kiara now joins us from Fort Pierce, Florida. Hi, Kiara. Where she is completely different. You don't dance, right? No. No, not professionally, anyway. You're training for your commercial pilot's license, I was told. And so we welcome you. So what's going on with you down there in Florida that has you relating to Misty Copeland?

• 35:59Speaker 05

  Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate being here. For me, I always wanted to be a pilot, but I never thought it was attainable for me because I had never seen anyone that looked like me that was a pilot. And also, it's a very male-dominated field where there's only less than, where there's less than 1% of black women that are pilots in aviation.

• 36:29Speaker 05

  It wasn't until I had the privilege of meeting a black woman pilot that I was encouraged to do training and pursue my career of becoming a pilot.

• 36:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you were a flight attendant before. You were a flight attendant before.

• 36:44Speaker 05

  I was always interested in becoming a pilot, but didn't think that that was something that I could do. I flew with a black woman pilot and she was the one who encouraged me to go after my dream. When I started training, I was the only black person and the only woman in my class. And I suffered a lot from imposter syndrome and just feeling lonely and not being able to relate to anyone. And so my question for you is, how did you power through feeling lonely, not really having anyone to relate to, and just the pressure of feeling that you needed to,

• 37:27Speaker 05

  you know, get something great and finish and power through?

• 37:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I think at the, at the kind of heart of all of that was my real passion for it. That really kept me going. But I mean, that's not going to get you through on, you know, every day in those tough days. And again, it, you know, it was having the support that I've had in my life. And it was, for me, you know, it wasn't just about looking for black ballet dancers, but just black women in general who could connect with me in the same way you feel a connection to me. You know, even though we're not in the same field, but understand what it is to be the only and understand what it is to be the first and to be able to have those people to come to and have, you know, whether I'm just saying all the things I felt in a day and they don't say anything back,

• 38:15Speaker 01

  but they're just an ear to listen was so extremely helpful that kept me going on this path and knowing that I do have support and I do have people that believe in me.

• 38:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Is that helpful?

• 38:30Speaker 05

  That's very helpful. Um, like, I have an organization, Sisters of the Skies, that, you know, we can go through and ask certain questions. So just on the, on your day to day, there's really no one around in your circle that, you know, kind of, you can call on sometimes. And that can be hard at times when you're going through this.

• 38:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, may I just say, may I just say to you, Keira, a- as, as Misty knows, when you are the trailblazer, there isn't, because you are the one that's blazing the trail. So I think changing the perception of who you are and why you're there makes a world of difference. And, listen, I've been in so many rooms where I was the only woman, I was the only black person. I mean, I remember being in some town and I was like, there's not a brown person within 500 mile radius here. And, you know, it has never bothered me or concerned me, because there was a, there is a poem that Maya Angelou did called "To Our Grandmothers." I think it's called "Our Grandmothers."

• 39:39Oprah Winfrey?

  And there's a line in that poem that has lived with me and abided with me, and I share it with you. She says, "I come as one, but I stand as 10,000." And so for every meeting I've ever gone into, every boardroom I've ever gone into, where I knew I was the only woman, I was the only person of color, I was the only thing, I always just suit up. Literally, emotionally, spiritually, suit up. I have sometimes gone into a closet and called on that 10,000. Because you have been prayed up, Maya used to say this to me, and this is true for you, especially your generation, you've already been paid for.

• 40:21Oprah Winfrey?

  You've already been paid for. So all you need to do is put your crown on and wear it. So you've got to know when you walk in the space, you are the one who's blazing the trail. And the reason you are there blazing the trail is because so many people prayed you up to be there, sacrificed for you to be there, and now you've been paid for. You've been paid for.

• 40:45Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 40:46Oprah Winfrey?

  And you are never, you are never, may I tell you, you are never walking into the room alone. You are walking into the room as a symbol and as a representative of everybody who came before you who didn't get the chance that you have. That's how you're walking into the room.

• 41:04Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Beautifully said.

• 41:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Kiara. So you had to fight to even wear the proper shoes.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  I mean, and as you-

• 41:16Oprah Winfrey?

  And the proper shade of makeup.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, as you're saying, you know, there are so many that came before me that fought for this and that paved the way. And, and now I'm being given a platform to have a voice and to speak on it. That's how I, I feel about my journey and my path. And, and, and, you know, with having to pancake my shoes, as we say, you know, I'm, I'm in a, in an art form that is European art form.

• 41:40Oprah Winfrey?

  I didn't know until I heard that, read that, saw that, oh, that the pink shoes-

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yes, represent your skin.

• 41:45Oprah Winfrey?

  -are supposed to be matching the skin.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:47Oprah Winfrey?

  So all these years, that's what the pink skin was for. And then this went viral with like millions of people watching.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  As I started ballet, I've been pancaking my pointe shoes, my skin color. Everyone has a different method. You know, it's, it's European pink is the color of the pointe shoes. It's the color of the, the tights we wear. And if that doesn't exclude so many, then I don't know what does, you know? And that's the first thing you get when you enter into this space. You get your tights and you get your ballet slippers. And, and for all those little black and brown boys and girls, you know, that, that are, are receiving that message, it's saying you don't belong. Um, you know, Arthur Mitchell started it with the Dance Studio of Harlem in the seventies. You know, he was dyeing their tights and dyeing their pointe shoes so that it was a representation of their skin. And I feel that it's something that we need to acknowledge.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  We need to go back and give credit where it's due and say that this is how you make it inclusive. This is how you represent all bodies.

• 42:45Oprah Winfrey?

  So are they now doing tan slippers?

• 42:47Speaker 01

  It does exist. This happened during the pandemic post George Floyd, where a couple of the bigger brands.

• 42:54Oprah Winfrey?

  You could have had your own brand of shoes.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  I know, I'm working on it. It's not too late. But you know, that they have caught on and feel that it's something that they have to do. Because there are more black and brown dancers that want to be a part of it.

• 43:11Oprah Winfrey?

  In Letters to Misty, you talk about, which was shocking to me, not hitting puberty until the age of 19? First of all, why? What was going on in your body?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  I think it happens with a lot of really active young girls, whether it's gymnasts or ballet dancers. When you're so extremely active, and it's something that I think is genetic in my family. Most of the women in my family didn't start until later. And I think I actually would have started later than that had my doctor not put me on birth control to speed up the process.

• 43:45Oprah Winfrey?

  So you didn't get your first period until you were performing?

• 43:50Speaker 01

  I was performing professionally. It was actually in one of my first Swan Lakes when I was in the corps de ballet that I got my period onstage in a white tutu.

• 43:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Pretty traumatizing.

• 44:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, my goodness. We've all had our own bad stories, right? I can't imagine. What do you want to say about your relationship to your body now? And how that relationship has changed?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's had so many, so many growths and evolutions. And I have to embrace and accept my body for what it is in that moment. I think even when I, you know, went through puberty at 19, I gained 10 pounds within a couple of months and I had a completely different body. But I had to keep telling myself, I will never be that 16-year-old girl again. What do I have to do to be my healthiest self in this body? And I think that's how I've been on this journey, even after having my son. This is not the same body that I entered American Ballet Theater having. And I have to have a different grace and approach to the things that I'm doing and respect for it.

• 44:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, you know what, I have such respect for the way you have managed all of this. Because we know having a big life can become really unimaginable to a lot of people. And particularly when you've grown up and you didn't have anything to model that, you know? It was late.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Your ideas about yourself had already been formed by the time you moved in with Cindy and her family. And I heard that you and your siblings, despite your role models growing up, despite growing up in an environment where often you didn't feel safe and as you say, there was abuse, all six of you have long-term partners, no divorces. How is it that all of your siblings have long-term relationships when you all came from such craziness?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  I think we're all very similar in a lot of ways in that we didn't want to repeat this cycle.

• 45:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, nobody wants to repeat it, but they do.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  But a real, true fear of it. We're also all very close with one another. And I don't know, it's pretty wild.

• 46:13Oprah Winfrey?

  It is.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really incredible.

• 46:17Oprah Winfrey?

  I've done hundreds, thousands of interviews and usually people repeat the thing that they...

• 46:22Speaker 01

  That they see and don't want to do.

• 46:23Oprah Winfrey?

  And don't want, because that thing is familiar. So you draw to yourself exactly the opposite of what you think you want.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  It's pretty incredible.

• 46:32Oprah Winfrey?

  That's pretty, y'all should be studied.

• 46:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Really, I think it's a case study. I've never heard of such a thing.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:41Oprah Winfrey?

  I've never heard of such a thing. It's always somebody, or one or two or three. And not only that, they repeat the same pattern that your mother repeated. Yeah. And it's one person and another person, another partner. It's highly, highly, highly unusual, I can tell you.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 46:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Tell us about your husband.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  It's pretty incredible. He's an amazing man that, you know, I think I was drawn to him because I felt such safety and stability and partnership.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  I think that, you know, I was maybe not skeptical about marriage, but not something I felt that I needed to jump into.

• 47:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, not if you've seen your mom do it multiple times.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 47:22Oprah Winfrey?

  And it not work out.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 47:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, that's the role model you had.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Um, my husband and I were together for, uh, like 15 years, I think, something like that, close to, before we were married. Um, and, you know, I think what makes him so special and so different and, and perfect for me is that, again, it's never been, um, about us as individuals, but what are we doing to support one another? You know, he waited to propose to me until I was promoted to principal dancer because he didn't want to distract in any way. He didn't want me to have my mind on anything else. So the day after I was promoted, he proposed to me and I was just like, what is happening? What is my life right now? Um, but he's an incredible, incredible man.

• 48:05Oprah Winfrey?

  And that day of making principal dancer, was that everything you had imagined it to be? I know you had wanted it for a long time. Did it fulfill the expectation?

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Not that day, I wouldn't say. I mean, you know, I think that by the time I got to that place of being promoted, I had already done so much and kind of processed what it would be if I weren't promoted. And I was getting to perform principal roles and I was so satisfied with that, that it no longer felt that it was about the title. Um, and so by the time I was promoted to principal dancer, I was kind of like, oh, okay. But I understand the importance of the title. It, it, it, there needs to be that change and that, uh, you know, that evolution of what it looks, what it looks like to be a ballerina, who can be a ballerina?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  And so, of course, the title is, is necessary. But in that moment, it was like, Okay, I can kind of relax now, but now the real work begins.

• 49:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, the real work. Because what quality do you think, besides, obviously, talent and technique, do you think is the most important quality to have in being a principal dancer? What is the stuff?

• 49:24Speaker 01

  I think it's leadership.

• 49:26Oprah Winfrey?

  It's leadership, yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  You know, that's not something I ever thought about as a young dancer, that that was a quality that I needed to have. But I remember getting to a place where I was starting to get those roles. And Kevin McKenzie, who was the artistic director of American Ballet Theater, when he started to see those leadership skills developing in me was when he started to give those roles to me. And he was like, "It's a real responsibility to go onstage and to lead an entire company, and that it's not just about you out there."

• 49:57Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  You're a supporting character in this storytelling. And I feel like that's how I think of myself.

• 50:04Oprah Winfrey?

  And isn't it also about attitude?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Yes, it is, attitude.

• 50:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Attitude.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Not just the position attitude, but it is. It's the attitude you have and how you carry yourself and how you step onto a stage and motivate and kind of cultivate that energy amongst, you know, the entire company.

• 50:24Oprah Winfrey?

  And the respect and responsibility that your fellow dancers feel towards you.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Yes. One of the first things that I remember doing as a principal dancer, I remember being in the corps de ballet, and when those ballerinas would take so long during their bows, and you've already been standing on the side for long periods of time on one leg, and you can only switch legs once that ballerina leaves the stage. And I remember all of us just moaning, going, "Please leave the stage." The first thing I did, I remember doing my first one leg, I took my bow, you know, fully and respectfully, and I got my butt off that stage, because I was like, "Those girls are in pain."

• 51:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Waiting, waiting to come on, wow, wow, wow. Thinking of others, thinking of others. I want to say I am just so honored to be one of the co-chairs, along with Caroline Kennedy, for your gala. And as I was saying to you before we started, I'm not on people's boards. I don't do this thing of lending my name for the honorary chair and this and that. But I did that in order to meet you because I just thought that this was, this final dance is going to be such a seminal moment for you, the country, the culture. I know it's going to be an event like no other.

• 51:49Oprah Winfrey?

  And we're just all so excited to celebrate with you. And when you, when you wake up the next morning and your eyes open and you know 25 years have come and gone, what do you think, not just the next chapter, but that feeling will be of?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  I already feel so fulfilled. And I think I will feel fulfilled and grateful. I think I will really feel immense gratitude for, you know, I never imagined that ballet would take me here and that I would become the person that I am. And to me, that is what's been most incredible, you know, to see from the outside, to experience as myself, is the, from the girl that I was at 13 years old, to see that growth is even more impressive than any accolades, any performances I've had.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  And that's why I think arts education is so incredibly vital and important.

• 53:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I thank you. I thank you for being the woman that you are, a phenomenal, phenomenal woman. And when you see her walking it all to make you proud, that's a line from Maya's poem. I thank you for that, being a phenomenal woman. I thank you for the gift of your artistry. I thank you for handling it the way that you have with such grace, for leaning into it. And I thank you for your courage and for paving the way for so many countless others.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 53:34Oprah Winfrey?

  You really make me proud to spell my name, W O M A N. You do.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Oh, that means so much. That means so much coming from you. Thank you.

• 53:43Oprah Winfrey?

  I also want to thank our guests, John, Mia, and Kiara, Jen, and Savannah. Thank you for your questions. And thank you, listeners, for joining us in celebrating Misty Copeland's extraordinary legacy. A very special thanks to our friends at Walmart for supporting this episode. And the book is called Letters to Misty and Bunheads, Act Two. So I'm gonna, I think if you have young daughters especially, or young adults in your life who are trying to figure it out for themselves, this is a great gift. Great gift.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 54:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Until next week. Go well, everyone. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.