Did DeepSeek Just Break the AI industry?

This week, Marques and David dig into the big news of the week. They start off talking about Android XR, which is the new headset that Google and Samsung made to take on the Apple Vision Pro. Then they get into everything that happened with DeepSeek before talking about the return of the Pebble smartwatch! After that, they play "Something? Or Nothing?" again with a few wildly different news stories that may or may not be interesting. Of course, we wrap it all up with trivia. Enjoy! Links: Nothing video Waveform - Apple Vision Pro Episode Computerphile - DeepSeek video MKBHD - Android XR Headset Bringing Pebble Back Verge - ChatGPT Government edition Verge - iPhone SE 4 Meta Introduces Ads Robb Report - Boom Supersonic Jet Music provided by Epidemic Sound Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Socials: Waveform: https://twitter.com/WVFRM Waveform: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David Imel: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for the show comes from Google Gemini. You know that moment when curiosity strikes? You're exploring a new city with the family and a sculpture catches your daughter's eye. What is that? Who made it? With Gemini, you can snap a picture and get a fully interactive breakdown of its history, architecture, and even hidden secrets. Gemini is built for moments like that. Whether you're learning something new, solving a problem, or looking for your next favorite thing, Google Gemini is here to help. Download Gemini, Google's AI app, or visit gemini.google.com to learn more.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from. But when that context is scattered across tools, threads, and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying blind. That's the problem that Jira solves. What's the goal tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all these pieces together from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more, so nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping. Learn more at jira.com.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  That's J-I-R-A dot com. So the only things I've seen is, number one, it was an AI model that costs like a tenth of what OpenAI's models cost. Allegedly. And then I heard that it was just trained on OpenAI stuff. And it's not actually that impressive.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Oh no, they stole our stolen content.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  What is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marquez. And I'm David. And that means that Andrew's not here. Andrew's out this week. Ellis is also out. Adam's holding down the board. Zuri's sleeping in the corner like usual. It's gonna be a good time. It's been a couple of weeks, so we do have a lot to talk about. We got an exclusive look at Samsung's Project Muhan headset. A lot of interesting thoughts there. We're gonna touch on the new DeepSeek R1 model. That's kind of all of the rage in the AI industry right now. But also talk about Pebble. Sort of a... Can I say nostalgia about Pebble? I think so. At this point, I feel like I can use that word. We'll talk Pebble for a bit. And also, we're gonna play another game of something or nothing at the end. Love it.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  But first of all, I'm gonna give a shout out to a piece of content. So Nothing, that's great headline. Nothing. Nothing, the company, Oh. did a video on their YouTube channel. That was almost too smooth. But the video was, so they basically emailed me a couple of months ago and were like, "Hey, we're gonna make a video on like what it would take to make your dream phone." You know how you've had like a dream phone in the past where you just like Frankenstein together a bunch of parts? Like, "Just give us one of those and we'll make a video of it." And I was like, "All right." So I just threw together, you know, some specs and, "Yeah, it'd be cool if you can combine these." Sent it off. And then two months later, they were like, "Hey, we made the video." So I watched the video and it was pretty interesting.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Basically, it was them breaking down roughly what the costs are of a smartphone. Most interestingly, the bill of materials itself in different components of a phone that go into actually building it. So I'm sure you've heard before that like, yes, you buy a new phone and it costs $800 or something, but that phone only costs $243 of materials. And then everyone goes, "Well, they could've charged less," or they could've, you know, "Here's all these other thoughts on the difference between bill of materials and final retail price." But I gave them some specs and this is what they came up with. So go watch the video if you haven't already, but I will just give you some top line level spoiler alert stuff that I think is interesting and maybe you have a reaction to this stuff. So I told them a huge battery.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  We rounded up to 6,000 milliamp hours, 65 watt fast charging, 15 watt wireless charging. They said $13 per battery. Your dream is 15 watt wireless charge? Well, I didn't specify, actually. I just gave them, I said fast charging. Oh, okay. My dream would be... Give me 100 watts of both. 100. 100 watts of both, but $13 per battery. Okay. Which doesn't seem that terrible, actually. I wanted a 6.1 inch, 120 hertz, LTPO, AMOLED, 1440p. 6.1 inch being on the small side, but everything else basically being like a high-end S24 Ultra-level display. $35 per display. Okay. That's more than I expected. Yeah, I mean, this, I guess, includes the glass and the panel itself.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  The digitizer, all that. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. 35 bucks. Triple cameras, we basically, I just handed them like S24 Ultra roughly, but also not really. I would like a further telephoto in the S24 Ultra house, but the idea is triple cameras on the back and Pixel 9 front-facing camera. And $80 total for all of the cameras. Okay. $80 for the cameras, that seems... We got a bunch of sensors. Yeah, a bunch of sensors and then all the glass and optics and whatever has OIS in there. I... It seems crazy that it's that much higher than the display. I always figured the display would be just as expensive as the cameras. Yeah, I imagine the plastic actual lenses are not that expensive, but you never know.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  The sensors, Sony has a monopoly on, so what are you gonna do? Fair. Yeah. Or does Samsung... well, no, those are Samsung sensors. They're Samsung ISO cell. Samsung makes some of their own sensors. I forgot, they're Samsung ISO cell sensors. Yeah, so, I mean, I'm not tied to those particular sensors, but yeah, roughly, roughly 80 bucks. The storage, give me a terabyte of fast storage and 16 gigs of RAM. $90. Oh. For that. What? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Oh, storage and the RAM? Storage and RAM. Okay. $90. That still seems like a lot. It does. And you know, whenever you go to upgrade, I guess it makes sense whenever you go to upgrade a phone and you try to double the storage, then you see like real price increments. It's not like you have to pay 200 more dollars.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  And bill of materials to increase the storage, but it is a pretty significant cost in the phone. Yeah, so that's interesting to see. One terabyte out on SSD is much cheaper than that. It is true. But, you know, it is, it is fast. Yeah, it's a tiny little UFS 4.0 SSD. We'll go with it. And then a Snapdragon 8 Elite, so again, they said they couldn't reveal their exact supplier costs. Totally fair, I'm sure Qualcomm doesn't let them, but they basically referenced that a typical high-end flagship chip will cost about $190. Wow. For them, and their volume levels. Dang. So, pretty pricey. I actually have some more thoughts in my S24 Ultra review on the cost of the Snapdragon 8 Elite. We'll get there. Okay. But yeah, $190 bucks for the chip.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  And then some other small things, a motherboard, antenna, electronics, haptics, other small electronics miscellaneous, $15. Okay. Packaging, cable, stickers, box, $30. Wow, that's a lot more than I thought. Design materials, so if there's fancy stuff you want to do with the back glass, or any decoration, or maybe some special paint or something like that, $8. That would be why we see so many insane weird designs on the back of phones. Not that expensive. You do Dragon Ball Z for $8. Exactly. Yeah. Structural parts, buttons, mid-frame, screws, things like that, vapor chamber even, $10. Okay. Patents, licensing, software, $29. Okay. Per unit.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  And then, uh, rough total bill of materials, again, this isn't the all-in cost to make the phone, but the bill of actual physical materials, $500. So that's for my like crazy, super high-end dream phone idea, $500 to build. Wow. But then, of course, you have to add on R&D, all the teams, the employee costs and licensing and things that actually, one-time engineering costs to make this bespoke motherboard, work with this RAM, work with this storage, all that stuff. And then, you know, it breaks it down in detail in the video, but it might cost 20 to 25 million dollars to develop a phone. That was a very funny part of the video, because they're like, all in all, it should be about $500, um, but R&D is about 20 million. Yeah. Okay, so you gotta sell a lot of these.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  You do have to sell a lot of phones to sort of break even, obviously. Um, my favorite quote, uh, was, they wrote, as one of the costs, "Purchasing products from competitors to understand the market better."

• 8:27Speaker 01

  And they didn't give an exact cost for that, but I thought that was interesting.

• 8:30David Imel?

  Priceless.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Interesting. It happens in a lot of industries and I just kind of forgot that that's a thing you have to budget in. Like car companies just buy tons of other companies' cars.

• 8:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  And then drive them around and go, huh, I kind of like that.

• 8:42David Imel?

  Definitely more expensive for car companies than smartphone manufacturers.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Well, in total cost, but maybe per, in development, relative to the final cost of the product, maybe it's reasonable. You buy five or six cars to make a car, you buy five or six phones to make a phone.

• 8:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  So yeah, anyway, go check out that video. It's, it's pretty interesting and insightful. I don't really see that sort of, uh, behind the curtain, uh, number stuff very often from smartphone manufacturers. So we'll check, check that link in the description.

• 9:08David Imel?

  Okay.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  But anyway, okay. So I think the big interesting thing we got to try this week with the MKBHD video we put out, Project Muhan, Samsung's headset collaboration with Google and Android XR. I thought it was very interesting.

• 9:19David Imel?

  Yeah, I have so many questions about this.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  I have all the answers.

• 9:22David Imel?

  Okay.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I tried to put as much as I officially know in the video. We don't know things like the exact release date or the exact price. We don't know a couple of final details on things like field of view and resolution. I can just tell you like what I thought looking into the headset. But most of what this experience was, was me getting to try it and use Android XR and Gemini on a premium-ish Samsung-built headset. And yeah, it looks a lot like a Vision Pro.

• 9:51David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  They, they clearly were inspired by a lot of parts of Vision Pro, but they did improve on some stuff, like the, the battery, even though it is a battery tied to the side and in your back pocket, uh, it's a removable cable. It's USB type C. You can pop on another battery, which is pretty cool.

• 10:07David Imel?

  Can you plug it into a wall socket?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  You can.

• 10:09David Imel?

  Okay, cool.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Well, the, the battery that comes with it had another USB port on it that you can plug into the wall.

• 10:13David Imel?

  So you can't put the cable directly into a...

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Oh, um, that's a good question that I didn't get an answer to. I would imagine you can.

• 10:20David Imel?

  Okay.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  But I didn't get an official answer.

• 10:21David Imel?

  Cause it'd be cool if you could plug it into like a laptop as well and then you have lower latency of some sort of screen expansion.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  True. That's a great point. Yeah. The cable's long enough to plug it into a laptop for sure. I don't know about a wall, but it's a cool idea.

• 10:34David Imel?

  Okay.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, they, they made this headset...

• 10:40Speaker 01

  A while ago, they've been finalizing it. It was near final, so what we saw and what I put in the video is probably basically what you're gonna get when you eventually get to buy one of these things. And they'll name it and it'll come out and it'll be a some unpacked event later this year, probably.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  I was just gonna ask if this is the name they're going with.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  It's probably not gonna be called Muhan.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  Probably not.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  So Muhan.

• 10:59Speaker 04

  Or no, Android XR.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Oh, Android XR, the platform name, yes.

• 11:02David Imel?

  Google's.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  That is the name of the software officially, yes. The Muhan is a code name. It means infinity and it's a code for this infinite canvas that you get to play with, which is kinda cool. Uh, but it's not the name of the product, so we don't know.

• 11:16Speaker 04

  Is reality really an infinite canvas?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Uh, technically, yeah.

• 11:21David Imel?

  But the universe is expanding, Marquez.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  It's an infinite and expanding canvas.

• 11:26David Imel?

  So, questions?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:28David Imel?

  Okay, so something the Vision Pro does really well is that when you're looking through it, the frame rate is high enough that it doesn't really feel like you're looking through a screen. It kinda just feels like you're walking around and the quality is a little bit worse than real life.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:44David Imel?

  How does that feel through this headset?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Couple notes. One, the resolution of the display was pretty good. I would say a notch below Vision Pro, but it's pretty crisp.

• 11:55David Imel?

  Okay.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  The overall like pass-through from the cameras was good enough. It wasn't stunning or amazing. Vision Pro's definitely better. Like when you look through Vision Pro and pass-through, you feel very close to like just looking through like some blurry glass or something. This was, uh, yeah, a notch below that for sure. But they did something interesting, which is they let you take off the bottom of the eye seal. And that gives you this peripheral vision where light is coming in on the sides and the bottom. And for some reason, that made it feel better because you, your brain sort of fills in the bezels around the display with the rest. So like if I'm looking at a wall and I see through the middle, the pass-through, and then my peripheral vision sees the outsides of the wall.

• 12:40David Imel?

  Right.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  My brain kinda fills in the gaps.

• 12:42David Imel?

  Kinda merges them in a way.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is interesting. So I prefer using it without the light seal because of that.

• 12:47David Imel?

  Okay.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  But generally decent.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  B plus pass through, I would say.

• 12:51David Imel?

  Okay.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 04

  I have a question.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 04

  So, we actually just dropped today an Apple Vision Pro bonus episode. Go watch that if you haven't.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Go watch it.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  But, one thing that the developers were telling us is that Apple did a good job at making Swift easy to code in for iOS apps and when they released the new headset that you could just like, kinda like, know what you're doing over there.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 04

  Did they mention anything about that with the Android version?

• 13:15David Imel?

  Like native coding?

• 13:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, the details that I got from the team are, number one, all Play Store apps are compatible. Off the bat, no extra code, they will work.

• 13:26David Imel?

  Just like as a little window pop up?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I went to the Play Store, I downloaded a regular phone app and you could just pull it up and use it like a normal phone app, change the aspect ratio, scroll around, it works. But, there obviously would be a benefit to having optimized apps, so what they call spatial apps. And a bunch of the built-in apps are optimized and apparently it's a few lines of code to update your app to be optimized for spatial and then you can go crazy customizing and adding way more stuff. But, like the YouTube app, for example, was a spatial app. It chose to curve the window a little bit, it added these floating side panels for related videos and comments and then you could add a background for an environment that you're in and then watch YouTube videos in this like floating background on a mountain.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Not as high fidelity as Apple's, just not as good looking.

• 14:14David Imel?

  Okay.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  But, cool feature. So, my understanding is that it will be pretty easy to make spatial apps, but if you don't update your app at all, it will still work on the headset.

• 14:25David Imel?

  Do you think this is the reason that they haven't made a YouTube app for Vision Pro? Because they want it to be exclusive to an Android XR headset?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  I wouldn't be shocked, I mean...

• 14:33David Imel?

  That's a pretty huge thing, especially since they shut down the third-party Juno player.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  My question is, what's a better experience, watching YouTube in the browser on Vision Pro? Or, a built-in YouTube app on this Muhan headset?

• 14:47David Imel?

  Right, because in Vision Pro Safari, they have a special like window mode for a video player now.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you can, you can watch a video fullscreen with a background, kind of exactly the same way you do on the Muhan headset, it just won't be curved.

• 15:00David Imel?

  Right.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  But, you can change the size, make it huge, make it further away, closer to you, it's similar.

• 15:06David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean generally, I feel like a, a player, like an app, is going to have better UX design as well than just the website in a window, so...

• 15:13Speaker 01

  The second you have to move around the actual browser, it's better on the Samsung headset.

• 15:18David Imel?

  Better on Samsung headset.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I don't wanna have to move around youtube.com.

• 15:21David Imel?

  Right.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  With my pinching and scrolling.

• 15:23David Imel?

  I hear what you're saying.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 15:25David Imel?

  Cool.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  That's an interesting thought.

• 15:26David Imel?

  Okay.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  But I enjoyed that.

• 15:27David Imel?

  Okay.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:28David Imel?

  Um, let's see, other questions. Did they have any sort of group stuff you could do?

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Uh, no, none of that was demoed, no.

• 15:37David Imel?

  Okay.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  I would assume no, honestly.

• 15:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  I think it took Apple a while even to start building these like shared experiences and SharePlay is like their magic sauce that like works kinda cool with certain apps. Um, I had no shared space experiences with like another person in a headset.

• 15:52David Imel?

  Okay.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Interacting with the same model as me.

• 15:54David Imel?

  So no personas?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  No personas.

• 15:57David Imel?

  Crazy personas.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I didn't make any video calls, so I don't know what that would look like to the person.

• 16:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  On the other side. Maybe they just haven't.

• 16:04David Imel?

  Did you see your eyes really up close?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, there was, I mean, I was in there playing with the headset for maybe two or three hours. I didn't get to do everything. Video calls is not something I got to. But I did play around with some stuff that's not in the video, like just web browsing and poking around the stock apps and things like that, throwing apps all everywhere. Honestly, my biggest takeaway was, damn Gemini, this might be the most useful thing I've done with Gemini.

• 16:28David Imel?

  Just because you can interact with it with your voice?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  It can actually poke into the UI of what you're doing.

• 16:33David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  And it seems like it can actually move into Spatial Apps and like use the UI for you inside of Spatial Apps. But I could ask Gemini to clean up my windows, and if I had six windows, it would line them all up next to, next to each other. That was great. I could ask it to open an app and, open Google Maps and, and show me this thing, and it would, it'd do that for me. If I was looking at something in pass-through, like a painting on a wall, I could say, who painted this? And it would just pull up a web browser and Google something like who painted this. So it was pretty like hands-free. Obviously, it still has eye tracking. It will still have controller support. But the complete lack of having to do anything with my hands. And just talk to the thing was

• 17:14David Imel?

  Oh, interesting.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Surprisingly nice.

• 17:16David Imel?

  That was something I noticed during your video. So you said that you basically just have to put it on, do the eye alignment thing, which takes like a second, and it automatically does hand tracking.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:25David Imel?

  Okay.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Hand tracking is automatic.

• 17:26David Imel?

  So you don't have to do the whole Vision Pro thing of like, look that way, look that way, look up, look down, put your hands on.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Or eye tracking, you do have to do the looking at the dots to dial in eye tracking. So by default, eye tracking was actually off, and I was doing everything with my hands.

• 17:39David Imel?

  Oh.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  And so I'd point my pinched fingers at the subject and select things, which is a lot of arm movement. Obviously, in Vision Pro, you straight away set up eye tracking, and you never really do that. You can do essentially the same exact setup.

• 17:52David Imel?

  Really?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  It's like looking at a bunch of different dots around the screen, and then it's all right, all right, we can see your eyes now.

• 17:56David Imel?

  Okay.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  And then you can do the same sort of stuff.

• 17:57David Imel?

  Does the eye tracking feel as precise as on Vision Pro?

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:01David Imel?

  Yeah?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:02David Imel?

  Okay.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  It's the same magical, look at something, it's highlighted instantly, move around the UI with your eyes, and you can see like things like highlighting as you look at them.

• 18:11David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  It's pretty good.

• 18:12David Imel?

  Okay, so when Vision Pro came out, it definitely felt like a very magical type of technology. Do you think that this feels like it's exactly caught up?

• 18:21Speaker 01

  If the Vision Pro is an iPad Pro, the Project Muohana headset is a Samsung Galaxy Tab. So if, yeah, yeah. So if you, if you love the magic of, this is a super thin piece of hardware that is actually a computer, and is amazing that it can do all these things on a display, you will feel the same thing with the Galaxy Tab. There are certain things that Apple does in their own ecosystem that are another level of magic on top of that, whether it's Share Play, or Shared Experiences, or whatever apps that you're using, that will not quite be the same on the Google one. But, Google has Gemini, Google has YouTube, Google Apps built in, it has that extra functionality to make up for maybe not being as magical.

• 19:06David Imel?

  Right.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  So, it is very functional, there's no way it costs $3,500. I think this thing is gonna be 2K tops.

• 19:13David Imel?

  Right.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Probably less.

• 19:14David Imel?

  Right.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  And I think that's gonna be a big reason people will consider it over a Vision Pro. But yeah, not not as magical. I think that's fair.

• 19:22David Imel?

  Interesting. I guess the relevant comparison could be like ChatGPT to Gemini where because Google has all of these Google apps that Gemini can tap into and it already has all your data, it's more useful than just like a platform.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, in certain ways, yeah. It's and it's cool and I still want to play around with it again and try things like like searching inside of apps. Like I wonder if I could ask Gemini in the headset about an old email and I wonder if it would go into the email app and like search through that and find it. That would be amazing. Because essentially it's just pulling up an instance of Gemini Live.

• 19:53David Imel?

  Right.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Which is the conversational thing that's on your phone already. So I imagine whatever that can do, this can do in the headset.

• 19:59David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  And since it's multimodal, I can take a picture on my phone and it can search that. Well, the headset, it's running past her all the time. Gemini Live can see that.

• 20:06David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  And so I can just ask about something I see.

• 20:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  So there's a lot of potential, I think.

• 20:10David Imel?

  And when you were talking to Google, did they have like a specific positioning for why this is useful to use? Because Apple, Apple never really defined what it thought the Vision Pro was best suited for.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 20:23David Imel?

  And I feel like it tried to figure that out after it launched it. It was like, this is great for media consumption, but also kind of work. And as they have updated Vision Pro, they've updated the categories that they found people were using it for more. But it still isn't that defined and I feel like that's part of the reason it is not doing well. Did Google have like a, we want people to use this for work. We want people to do this. Like, do they have a positioning for this thing?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  It was mostly centered around Gemini. I think if you asked them, they would mostly tell you like, this is the best way to use Gemini. You could use it on your phone, you could use it on your tablet, or you could just use it on a pair of glasses or a headset that you're wearing all the time and it's always able to talk to you. So I think their pitch would be it's the best way to use Gemini. And that's

• 21:10David Imel?

  It reminds me of your AI pin part, like the part of the video where you ask the AI pin to name the car and then you just pull out your S24 Ultra and it does it faster.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  I think, I think there's some instances where this is the best way to use Gemini. Where you're, in a, in a world where you're walking outside with this headset on and a car passes in front of you, you literally look at the headset and go, what car? You just look at the car and go, what kind of car is that? And Gemini can see the car you're looking at and can tell you right away. I had a clip in the video where I just hold, I held up a book.

• 21:42David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  And the book had a picture and the bottom it said like the name of the art, the name of the photo and where it was taken. And all I did was pull up the picture, look at it and go, can you take me there? And it, it understood that context, understood that it was a location, opened Google Maps, searched that location and then took me to that location in Google Maps. So if it's able to do that sort of parsing and understanding and carry out actions into apps on my behalf, I think that's the pitch.

• 22:13David Imel?

  That would be cool. I would like to see what the limits of that are outside of a contained space.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 22:19David Imel?

  Also, uh, do they have any sort of like workspace expansion stuff where they can expand your laptop screen or anything like that?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Did not hear about that. Didn't hear about that.

• 22:29David Imel?

  Interesting.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  I would be curious what happens if there's any screen mirroring or if we're plugging into a laptop, what happens? Cause I didn't get to do that either.

• 22:36David Imel?

  I want to see their first ad for this device because I need to know what they're trying to tell people to buy it for.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  That's a great point. The ads say a lot about their, what they imagine people use it for. I did get to connect a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard.

• 22:52David Imel?

  Okay.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  And there wasn't like a computer also, so it was just me using the mouse and keyboard to move around Android XR apps, which is cool. But uh, yeah, the, you know, quickly going from like pinching something and then typing on a keyboard and then a mouse, all of that was, it was very fluid.

• 23:07David Imel?

  Interesting.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  But yeah, I'm curious about that first ad too. That's interesting.

• 23:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 04

  Huh. I got two questions.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 04

  One, were you able to look at a bright thing and then back at a not so bright thing?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, good question. So like you said, this was a very controlled environment. And in the interest of getting as many shots for our video as possible, we basically stayed in this evenly well-lit room.

• 23:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  There was a display in the room. I could look at it and I could look around very quickly and that seemed very fluid, but I didn't really. I don't have any memory or footage of like looking at a super bright light and then something dark. So I don't know if it would handle it the same way as Vision Pro. I kind of imagine it will though.

• 23:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Just kind of trying to balance out exposure quickly and hopefully not peak.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:50David Imel?

  Okay. Next question. Do you think that this is, like from what you experienced and going back to what their first ad is gonna be? Is this basically just a dev kit again, just like how the Apple Vision Pro was?

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's basically a dev kit. I think that's accurate. Honestly, right now, they are using this headset as a dev kit. And that's where you'll see it right now before it's shipped. But yeah, it feels like, okay, Vision Pro is out, Quest 3 is out. There are headsets that are out in the world. And if we want any sort of advantage, or if we want people to use our platform, we need people to develop for it. We need to get something out in their hands. This is the first headset that has Android XR. Take it away, developers. Make awesome stuff. And then hopefully that leads them to making magical, amazing apps.

• 24:35David Imel?

  I just need, like, the Vision Pro problem still applies when it's Android.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:41David Imel?

  So I just really need to know.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  But it applies at half the price.

• 24:45David Imel?

  Probably. Probably, hopefully, less.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe less.

• 24:48David Imel?

  Because even at $17.50, this thing is way overpriced.

• 24:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, but for a cheaper AR/VR experience, you get the Meta, the Meta Quest.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, all the way down to $350, $300.

• 24:58David Imel?

  Yeah. Yeah. Plus, if you can't plug this into a computer, like, Android apps are great.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  You'll be able to mirror your Chrome tab or something, you know?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Because right now, the Quest can already have your computer display.

• 25:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  I feel like you need to have that feature in this headset. But also, if you're gonna charge more than the Quest, then you have to be able to do more than the Quest. And the Quest has a huge library of games. That's like what they're really good at right now. And obviously, the work aspect is okay. You can computer mirror. I would imagine that this kind of gets positioned as, yes, you can work in it, but also you're just gonna get so much done with Gemini all the time. It's gonna be the super useful thing that helps you all. You're gonna wanna walk around the office and write emails while your hands are in your pockets.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, but the problem is this thing is so big, just like the Apple Vision Pro. Like, how long until this is in a pair of Ray-Bans? Like, if they're just gonna put Gemini in glasses, you know?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:51David Imel?

  Right.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Great point. And I think this will be probably the last big point for this.

• 25:55David Imel?

  Okay.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Android XR as a platform. Can be in a bunch of different form factors. So in this video, I said that Project Muhan, think of it as like the Pixel or the Nexus or whatever of this platform. Meaning that it's an example for a version of the hardware you can put it on.

• 26:13David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  But there will be, from other manufacturers, higher end versions, lower end versions, different form factors. We were, I think, maybe having a conversation about PCs. Maybe, was this last week on the podcast? But like, desktop computers are still a big thing that you put on your desk. And people will buy higher end components or lower end components, but they'll just run Windows again at the end of the day.

• 26:35David Imel?

  Right.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  And so Android XR will run on smart glasses too. But if it's on smart glasses, you will have less total functionality. You can't watch a movie on them. You can't see the Gemini UI as easily. It'll just be text based instead of like this whole animation thing. So there are pros and cons to different form factors. But the idea is they're introducing Android XR. And then hopefully the hardware ecosystem blooms and the developer ecosystem blooms. And then everything's blossoming at the same time.

• 27:05David Imel?

  So more of, instead of trying to crash the VR and the smart glasses into each other, you're just saying, we're just gonna run on all the types of platforms. Like, all the types of headsets.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. Android XR is the base software layer for all of the future AR, VR, XR experiences that will come in the form of headsets, glasses, et cetera.

• 27:30David Imel?

  Okay.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  From Google.

• 27:31David Imel?

  Interesting.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:32David Imel?

  Okay. I'm very interested in where this goes and how they position it and all this stuff. I did hear that they were planning to release it in 2025, though.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yep. They wouldn't stop telling us that.

• 27:43David Imel?

  Okay.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Every time we asked about it, we're like, so this year? And then Andrew would ask, so actually this year? And then they'd go, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, a couple of months. Yeah. So they're, I think.

• 27:53David Imel?

  You should have asked them where the Galaxy Home is. And I feel more comfortable.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  I know, yeah. Every, every company's got an air power that makes us go.

• 28:01David Imel?

  That's true.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Literally every company has, has announced something where we go, oh, can we trust them anymore? Are they gonna make, even if they have a track record, you're like, but you didn't ship that one thing, so now I don't know.

• 28:10David Imel?

  That's true.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  So.

• 28:12David Imel?

  Interesting.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, Samsung, we'll see. 2025 allegedly.

• 28:15David Imel?

  Okay, and nothing about price?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Nothing. Nothing about price.

• 28:19David Imel?

  Cool.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. All of the price, all of my estimates would come from, like, if I was betting, like, we, we could probably estimate in an educated way. Like, I, I looked at that display and the field of view and the materials and the battery. And I don't know the bill of materials, but I imagine it from Samsung, they would position this in a, in a way that they could undercut Vision Pro.

• 28:42David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  But still be looked at as premium.

• 28:44David Imel?

  Let's take a market that has very few people in it and make it even smaller.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Well, Quest is popular.

• 28:52David Imel?

  That's true, but for gaming.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:55David Imel?

  Like, you know what that's for. Nobody knows what these other things are for.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, hopefully, so that's, I did play one game, briefly. I don't even remember. It was one, it was, I'm gonna.

• 29:05David Imel?

  Launches exclusively.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  I forgot the name of this game. It was like a flat game with like a bunch, it was a house cross-section with a bunch of.

• 29:12David Imel?

  Flappy Bird. Oh, was it Fallout Shelter?

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yes, that. And I played that for 30 seconds. And I was like, wow, it works with my hand control. That's crazy. Or I could have a mouse.

• 29:20David Imel?

  Did it feel intuitive at all?

• 29:22Speaker 01

  I don't know how to play that game, so I couldn't answer that. But, yes, I mean, I zoomed in and I clicked things and I held things down and I moved them around. So, yeah, I think it was pretty intuitive.

• 29:32David Imel?

  Decided to play mobile games on a thing I have to wear on my face.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  I mean, there's gonna be games that don't work at all.

• 29:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Like, I don't, I imagine like a Need for Speed game's not gonna.

• 29:40David Imel?

  It'd probably just be in a window, right?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  You gotta have controllers at that point.

• 29:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  I think you need controllers.

• 29:44David Imel?

  Right.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  So is this built on Daydream or is this just a brand new situation?

• 29:48David Imel?

  We don't talk about that.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  I don't think Daydream, I don't think Google even remembers what that is. Do you remember cardboard? Yeah. Was under my seat. Cardboard was fire. Cardboard was a great idea. Just put your phone right on your face. Uh, I, I'm gonna guess when this Samsung headset comes out, it's gonna retail for.

• 30:08David Imel?

  Nope.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  More.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  No, I was gonna say 1599 or 1699.

• 30:14David Imel?

  I'm guessing like 699.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  All the way to 699.

• 30:17David Imel?

  I think it'll be more than Quest, but it'll be way cheaper than Vision Pro.

• 30:22Speaker 04

  Wait, 699?

• 30:23David Imel?

  799.

• 30:24Speaker 04

  799?

• 30:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  Not 1799?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  I'm going with

• 30:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  1599.

• 30:31David Imel?

  Ooh, okay.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Like, think about, like, an S24 Ultra is already 1299.

• 30:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  But everyone knows what to do with an S24 Ultra.

• 30:39David Imel?

  That's, that's my thing. Like, in order to get people to buy a thing, like, people buy the Quest even though they're not totally sure what they're gonna do with it because it's 500 bucks and it's like-

• 30:47Speaker 01

  And there's like two games they know they wanna play.

• 30:48David Imel?

  And during Christmas, it's 350, they wanna play Beat Saber. It's, it's a, it's a splurge moment. The Vision Pro is almost never a splurge moment.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:59David Imel?

  So.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just, I, I think it's all about positioning from Samsung.

• 31:04David Imel?

  Totally.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Like, in the way that they position their phones against other phones, they have to-

• 31:08David Imel?

  Do they, do they even position their phones?

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Well, they, they call this-

• 31:11David Imel?

  We know you're gonna buy it.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Like, they have the S25 and the, and the Plus, and then the Ultra, which has to be more because it's bigger and, but it's not that much better, but it's, it has to be more expensive. So it's 1299.

• 31:21David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  That's-

• 31:22David Imel?

  Because they know that there's that market of people that will just get the best thing no matter what.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Right. And I think they'll see other headsets come out after this, and then this one is the premium one in that world. There will be $700 headsets-

• 31:33David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  That run Android XR.

• 31:35David Imel?

  From Lenovo.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  But I think, yeah, I think they're gonna look a little different from this one. And I think the one that looks like Vision Pro-

• 31:41David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  I think they're aiming it at people who might have thought about buying a Vision Pro.

• 31:46David Imel?

  Come on, HTC.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Somebody who has $3,000.

• 31:49David Imel?

  You gotta make your comeback, Ken.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  We're gonna get those cheaper headsets, but I think they're gonna go right up well past 1,000. So that's why I'm going 1599, 16. For some reason, 1647's in my head, but that's not a real price. So let's go.

• 32:01David Imel?

  Great year.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Let's go 1599 is my official guess.

• 32:04David Imel?

  I guess I haven't, I haven't touched it, so I don't know how the hardware quality is.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  There's glass on the outside. The, the frame is metal, it's not plastic. Remember, Quest is just plastic.

• 32:12David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  And I think this has metal, it had fans, it had that Snapdragon chip inside.

• 32:16David Imel?

  Fans, you could hear them?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  No, I didn't hear them.

• 32:18David Imel?

  Okay.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  But it had fans, it had like machine, nice machined buttons, it had the braided cable for the battery. Like, it was definitely supposed to be premium. Yeah.

• 32:28David Imel?

  Did look like a Vision Pro. When you get the top shot of it like on your head but above and it has the same friggin button as Vision Pro.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  I said in the video and people got mad because I compared to Vision Pro so much, but I was like, "It's not a digital crown here, it's a button." And they were like, "Why you keep using Vision Pro as a reference?"

• 32:46David Imel?

  Oh, I wonder.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, because Samsung did, that's why.

• 32:49David Imel?

  Because it looks like a Vision Pro.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  And it's also the one that like a lot of people have seen. That video is 30 million views or something. Like, people have seen Vision Pro. So this is the reference. This is the Android version of the thing you've already seen.

• 33:01David Imel?

  This is, "We've got Vision Pro at home." There you go. For people that want to buy it for their kids.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Do you want to make an official price guess?

• 33:07David Imel?

  $9.99.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:08David Imel?

  $1,000.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  $7.99? $9.99?

• 33:11David Imel?

  Oh, I feel like it's gonna be more now.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  It is.

• 33:13David Imel?

  If it's really not.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, I'm giving you a chance.

• 33:15David Imel?

  $12.99.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Okay, final answer. Lock 'em in. Now we should do trivia.

• 33:20David Imel?

  Okay. Okay.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  $12.99.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  Trivia, dude. So, David Koz and Damien Henri were two French Google engineers. With their... Very French. With their 20% innovation time off, they made something that was introduced at Google I/O 2014 Developers Conference. 2014. In fact, everyone that attended walked away with it. What was it?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  I have an idea. I was there. I think I went to that.

• 33:53Speaker 04

  I think you did too. What was the thing?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  11 years ago. I should know this. When we were not old. When we were wee lads. When we were wee lads. All right, well, we'll think about this one. Answers will be at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

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• 35:36Speaker 01

  All right, welcome back. We've got to talk about this DeepSeek thing. Yeah. Now, here's my relationship with the DeepSeek headlines.

• 35:43David Imel?

  Okay.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  I was working on the Project Muhan video.

• 35:46David Imel?

  Okay.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  And trying to distill all of my thoughts on this headset that I just tried and like over a flight back and like writing it and carving out all the footage and color correcting and editing and animating and all that blah, blah, blah. And then when I uploaded it, DeepSeek had already gone through an entire news cycle.

• 36:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Of it coming out, being the talk of the town, and then suddenly is maybe not so hot.

• 36:08David Imel?

  It's still in the news cycle.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  It's definitely still in the news cycle.

• 36:10David Imel?

  A lot.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  I need you to explain what I missed.

• 36:13David Imel?

  Okay, yes. Okay, so it turns out we all missed this, actually, because the original big DeepSeek news, well, part of the big DeepSeek news, happened on Christmas Day. So clearly, a lot of us were going to miss this.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 36:26David Imel?

  Okay.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  That's my fault for not really digging into the forums on the...

• 36:30David Imel?

  On Christmas Day.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  On Christmas Day for the groundbreaking AI reports.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually, the only things I've seen is, number one, it was an AI model that costs like a tenth of what OpenAI's models cost.

• 36:41David Imel?

  Allegedly.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  And are just as good.

• 36:42David Imel?

  Allegedly.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  And then I heard that it was just trained on OpenAI's stuff. And it's not actually that impressive.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Oh, no, they stole our stolen content.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  So that's my entire familiarity.

• 36:52David Imel?

  All right, yeah, high-level overview. This is an AI language model similar to OpenAI's.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Language model.

• 36:59David Imel?

  GPT. Yes, it is specifically a language model. They also introduced an image model, but the language model is the thing that people are mostly talking about.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:08David Imel?

  So on Christmas Day, this company called DeepSeek, that is this Chinese AI company, released this model called DeepSeek V3. V3 is a foundation model, came out on Christmas. No one really talked about it that much because it was Christmas. The thing that is causing a lot of stir in the community is that it performs really well. It performs very similarly to things like GPT-4 and like one of Claude's best models, stuff like that. But the, probably the biggest thing that caused the stock market to start tumbling and all of these things to happen is that reportedly it only cost $5.6 million to train.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  I think the headline I'm remembering now is that Nvidia lost like $600 billion of revenue, of market cap.

• 37:54David Imel?

  They lost half a trillion of market cap in one day, which is a whole Stargate. So.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Because of these headlines about DeepSeek?

• 38:01David Imel?

  Yes.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 38:02David Imel?

  So if you sort of extrapolate the fact that this costs $5.6 million, most of these AI companies basically are trying to create these gates, not gates, they're trying to create these walls on who can compete with them by saying, oh, it costs $100 million to train a foundation model, so only these giant companies like Google and OpenAI and I guess Claude can train their own models to be competitive and meta, you know? So it's semi-open source, it's like open weights. So they released this really big paper about how they trained it. And the paper basically discloses all of these different methodologies that they use

• 38:44David Imel?

  that basically take similar methodologies to what the big companies use, but they take the most efficient approach possible, right? I think a lot of the companies like OpenAI and Meta and Google, their big thing has been, oh, we're just gonna throw more compute at it because for a while, these AI models scaled with the amount of compute that they threw at it.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:05David Imel?

  Eventually, they started kind of slowing down and now they're trying to figure out different ways to make them more effective. Like, for example, OpenAI's O1 model is like this reasoning model that takes multi-steps, it does multi-step reasoning to think through problems, which has a higher level of accuracy for actually solving complex problems.

• 39:25David Imel?

  But things like that O1 model are in OpenAI's $200 a month tier. So they have all these insane gates, right, that stops, stop people from actually using them or competing.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  I think I saw them saying something about how the usage of that tier was so high that they were still losing money.

• 39:43David Imel?

  Per user.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is crazy how expensive this stuff is supposed to be.

• 39:47David Imel?

  So, so some of the efficiency things that DeepSeek did to make this a lot cheaper is they use techniques like this technique called mixture of experts. And what that is, is basically if you have a giant model, right, like for example, this V3 model has 671 billion parameters. You can basically say, okay, well, I'm going to take 37 billion of these parameters and specify it towards things like code, right? Because when you feed a model a ton of data, you've got a ton of coding data, you've got a ton of just natural language data, you've got a ton of data about different topics. So it's not actually efficient to do this like next word processing thing if you have to run through the entire model and find the next token.

• 40:31David Imel?

  It's more efficient to say, oh, I've got an expert on coding in the model here so that let's only run a parameter of 37 billion instead of 671 billion.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Okay, sure.

• 40:42David Imel?

  And that's both more efficient and more effective.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  So it can be cheaper, it can be faster, and it can be just as maybe even more accurate.

• 40:48David Imel?

  Right. And it's also, yeah, it could be more accurate. And it can also be much cheaper to inference. So if you're actually the, the end user using it, it costs less per token because it doesn't have to, you know, go through the entire model to find what you're looking for. Okay, so this V3 model was already a big deal because of how cheap it was. But the thing that's causing the bigger stir is just last week, they announced a new model called R1, not of Rabbit R1 fame.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Prove it.

• 41:18David Imel?

  Can't prove it, cannot prove it. But R1 is a reasoning model similar to OpenAI's O1 model. And it does thing, it does the same multi-step reasoning that the O1 model does, but it does it out in the open, which is very interesting. So the difference is when you ask O1 a question, it'll say, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, and then just kind of gives you the answer.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:43David Imel?

  Yep.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  That's what I do usually.

• 41:45David Imel?

  Whereas, the interesting thing about this R1 model is when you ask it a question, say like, you give it some complex question like, "Oh, there are four blocks on top of each other. One is green, it's in the middle, one is red, and it's here. If I were to move the green block on top, can you tell me the order of the blocks?" This is an example from the Computer File YouTube channel that I just ripped off.

• 42:07David Imel?

  Now, normally, it would get those things wrong because it's like very difficult to, you know, take all that information and understand the physics and all that stuff. But in a reasoning model, it's similar to a human being who writes down the problem, and you have to work it out, right? Because you can't just instantaneously come up with that answer. And so, it will, step by step, tell you, "Okay, so theoretically, if you were to move that block to the top, then now the blue block is below the red block, which means that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And OpenAI used to hide all of that compute. But R1 shows it step by step, which is very interesting for a lot of people because now it shows you how these models are actually working. Which is really crazy.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  That's, I kinda like that.

• 42:50David Imel?

  Yes.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Because it's not like sourcing it necessarily, but it's kinda interesting to see it and maybe catch a mistake in the process as it happens. That's cool.

• 42:59David Imel?

  Right. The other thing that is interesting about the way that they trained this is that generally, the way that you train a lot of these AI models with complex problems is you would tell it the question, you would tell it all of the steps in between working out the answer, and then you would tell it the answer. And that would be the data that you feed into the model. So you're just feeding like, all of these worked out questions into a model, which is a lot more data, and it's also not really learning how to do, learning, in the broader sense of the word, how to actually work out the reasoning for these questions. It's just kind of mapping, "Here's the question, here's the reasoning, here's the answer." And so, it's less likely to get those things correct, takes a lot more data, etc.

• 43:40David Imel?

  This time, they're basically just giving it the question, and they're giving it the answer, and they're basically saying, "You get a cookie if you get it right, and you don't get a cookie if you get it wrong." And so now, they're sort of training the model to, instead of just mapping the question to the workout, to the answer, they're actually kind of training it to actually do that reasoning itself. And that is way cheaper to do as well. So, yeah, the thing that is crazy about all of this is because it is so much cheaper, and they did it also on a bunch of Nvidia H800 GPUs, which are the older, less fast GPUs

• 44:22David Imel?

  that they were able to buy before the export ban, because currently, under the Biden administration, you are not allowed, Nvidia cannot sell H100s to China. Because we want to be the, you know, in America, they want to be the fastest, most brawniest, you know, whatever.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:36David Imel?

  So they're saying, oh, we did this on H800 GPUs, we did it on like 10 to 50 times less GPUs, it only took two months to train instead of three months that it took to train the OpenAI model, and the OpenAI model also had way faster GPUs. So suddenly, an order of magnitude less GPUs, 50x less GPUs you can use.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:59David Imel?

  Nvidia is like, ah, maybe people aren't going to buy as many of these anymore.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  I see, that's why it relates to Nvidia. So, okay, so DeepSeek, it sounds like it's a genuinely innovative.

• 45:11David Imel?

  Yes.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  And useful, much more efficient, much less expensive, both to use and to build, model.

• 45:21David Imel?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Sounds like this is like the Leot Omega of language models.

• 45:26David Imel?

  People are considering this a Sputnik kind of moment.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  If by people, you mean Marc Andreessen.

• 45:33David Imel?

  Well, no, more than, more than just Marc Andreessen.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  In that it's like a new innovation that's not from the US.

• 45:39David Imel?

  In that we kind of like, yeah, a lot of US companies have been like, we're the only ones in town, and then out of nowhere, someone releases something that's tech, like better in some circumstances, and so it freaks everybody out. So.

• 45:51Speaker 04

  What happens when you take this efficient model and put it on Google servers that are running like 100,000 Nvidia GPUs? Like, would it just be that much better?

• 46:01David Imel?

  So there is, there is this, this paradox that I cannot remember the name of, that people bring up a lot in regards to this, where if you can run something more efficiently and cheaper, more people are going to want to use it. So it scales with, with the efficiency, so it's like. Yeah, if you have more servers, you're still going to use those servers. So, you know, it'll be cheaper to run.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  I've heard the same.

• 46:24David Imel?

  But more people are going to use it.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:26David Imel?

  Yeah, there's some paradox around it.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  And that you just like fill the demand with your savings.

• 46:30David Imel?

  Yeah, right. The other thing is that theoretically now you could run this on like a 4090 or something. You don't need like these supercomputers anymore to be able to run these models. And so if you're like a university and you've got a small cluster, but it's not like an OpenAI sized cluster, you could run a local version of this that's tailored to specific tasks locally on your servers and you don't have to pay OpenAI anymore, right?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:54David Imel?

  So this is the other thing. Because the the weights are open and people are trying to like reengineer it and it's free to use and it's free, the research paper is out there. It's a it's kind of open sourcing this thing that these few companies have kept closed for a long time because they want to maintain this like monopolistic kind of leadership stance.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 47:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's the that's the first half of the news cycle. I can see the the reason for the hype and like all of the

• 47:22David Imel?

  The stocks.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Movement in stock prices and all the headlines and everything that. But then there was like another half of it where it sort of cooled off or at least started getting broken down and exposed more for what is actually happening. Is that also?

• 47:36David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean, people are finding technicalities. So they said that the last run that actually trained the model is the thing that cost five, uh, 5.6 billion dollars or, yeah, billion dollars.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Million.

• 47:49David Imel?

  Yeah, million, 5.6 million dollars.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Instead of from zero.

• 47:53David Imel?

  Yeah, instead of from scratch, like all the R and D hours, all the other compute, all the data collection. Obviously, that costs a lot more money. So it's kind of like the same thing as your bill of materials thing, right?

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:04David Imel?

  It's like, what did this actually cost full on? They haven't released that. So it's a little bit different.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Has anyone asked Carl pay? Break it down.

• 48:14David Imel?

  Yeah. Other thing that I think is very funny is they're basically saying that they are pretty. There's this other thing that you can do when you're training models called distillation, where you basically take your model and you take, you take outputs from a good model and you use that as training data for a new model. And they're thinking, a lot of people are thinking right now that they used outputs from like GPT-4O as data to train this model. Because you can get, you can create a much smaller model with better data. And if the good data is in the outputs from another AI model, then you can do that. And so a lot of people are freaking out.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  But also a lot of data.

• 48:54David Imel?

  Exactly.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 48:55David Imel?

  So a lot of people are freaking out because they're like, oh my God, they might have stolen OpenAI's outputs, but it's like, boo hoo.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I guess that makes sense because at first when you were saying that, I was like, okay, so we're just making another GPT-4. It's like, what's the point? But it is still cheaper and in more efficient to run and all of those benefits. So even if it's giving you the same outputs as GPT-4, it could have advantages. So I guess I get it.

• 49:22David Imel?

  Way cheaper to run, way cheaper to train. You could train like a, a local version. You could use your own local version. Chain of thought reasoning is really cool.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:31David Imel?

  Yeah, just a lot of things that I think a lot of people were not expecting. And then it also made it seem like, okay, maybe we don't actually need these supercomputer clusters the size of Manhattan to be able to run these things. Also, the nuclear, the entire nuclear industry kind of crashed on this too. Because people were investing in a lot of nuclear companies because they were thinking, we're going to scale up AI clusters so much, we're going to need nuclear power to run this. And now they're like, actually, you need 50 times less GPUs than you thought.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  That's really funny.

• 50:03David Imel?

  And so now the nuclear industry is like, oh.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  That's really funny. I mean, in a, I, I am not the expert on this, but in a like far enough future that I'm visioning, envisioning of like people using AI all the time, you have to be able to do it more efficiently. Like efficiency has to be one of the focuses. We can't just keep scaling up to just bajillions of GPUs everywhere and just blasting through. I mean, that's how, what we've been doing.

• 50:28David Imel?

  That's what Nvidia wants.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  That's what we have been doing. And if you follow the graph of Nvidia's stock price, you can see how we've done that.

• 50:33David Imel?

  Exactly.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  But it seems like, yeah, efficiency also has to eventually be a focus in, in some of these. So I'm glad that it's at least started to. Highlight that.

• 50:42David Imel?

  I think in most industries and markets, when more people have access to innovating on a thing, you get so much innovation that the efficiency and the value proposition just go up exponentially. But this market is so closed. Like, you only have OpenAI, Google, not even really Apple, you know, Claude and Meta.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:03David Imel?

  That's, that's sort of it. There's a bunch of small AI companies that have spun up, but they're all basically using OpenAI as their, like, foundation. So, yeah. Um, I think this just kind of shows that open source is going to cause a lot of commotion.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Fun.

• 51:17David Imel?

  Yeah, pretty big deal.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  I'm here for it.

• 51:19David Imel?

  Pretty big deal. Uh, also, apparently, if you use the, uh, there is now a deep, there's a DeepSeek app that you can have that is now the number one app on the App Store.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Sick, that was fast.

• 51:30David Imel?

  Uh, it will apparently not talk about Tiananmen Square.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Oh, because it's, it's still a Chinese app?

• 51:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  So is it gonna get banned? There's so many things that are unanswered about this.

• 51:41David Imel?

  I would not doubt it, uh, if that got banned. So, yeah. If you run it locally, it will tell you whatever you want. If you run it through the app, which is kind of going through the Chinese filtration systems, it will not tell you whatever you want.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  I just wanted to go sign up and it says, "Due to large-scale malicious attacks on our servers, registration may be busy. Please wait and try again."

• 52:02David Imel?

  Yeah, they're basically saying they got DDoS'd.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, everybody's probably, they have a kind of a magnifying glass on them right now, so that doesn't really shock me, but.

• 52:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 52:10David Imel?

  Yeah, things are happening. So that was a big deal. Um, Nvidia's stock price has since kind of gone a little bit back up. There have been many think pieces about, "Well, it costs 5.3 million to train, but what about all the other money? And what about this? And oh, if they're using distillation of OpenAI data, then the actual true cost is blah, blah, blah." And it's like, okay, I feel like that's a lot of hand-waving, personally. Um, I don't know. I think it just shows that if you make something open, way more innovation can happen. And also, we're not the only ones in the AI race.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 52:42David Imel?

  Uh, Pebble. Do you know this name?

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Pebble.

• 52:46David Imel?

  The word Pebble?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Bro.

• 52:47David Imel?

  And it's not, not the social media network.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Pebble brings me back, cuz I... Pebble's the first smartwatch I ever had.

• 52:54David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Technically.

• 52:55David Imel?

  Oh, wow.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  It was before Moto360. I had like a red Pebble. I definitely did a video on the thing too. A red Pebble with a black band. And all it was, was an e-ink display on my wrist with notifications.

• 53:06David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  I didn't really want it to do too much else. It was just so I could have less screen time. I could just check my wrist and be like, oh, I can see what time it is and then I just got a text and I'm not even gonna read it and there it is.

• 53:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  That's my Pebble experience.

• 53:18David Imel?

  Yeah, to- so Pebble was one of the most successful Kickstarter's of all time.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  At the time, it was the most.

• 53:24David Imel?

  At the time, I think it was the most, yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  And then, but they eventually went out of business, right?

• 53:28David Imel?

  Yeah, okay, so they raised a ton of money. They raised $10 million at their first launch when they expected to raise $100,000. They came really popular with nerds. They released a bunch of new Pebbles throughout the years. They lasted about four years. Um, and then eventually Fitbit bought Pebble.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Fitbit bought Pebble?

• 53:47David Imel?

  Fitbit bought Pebble.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:48David Imel?

  And they shut down and, uh, they shut down the development of the Pebble 2 and the Pebble Time 2 and then they refunded everybody. It was a whole thing. And then, if you remember, Google bought Fitbit.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 53:59David Imel?

  So there's just been a bunch of like distillation of the IP of Pebble. And not a lot of people have used e-paper displays since Pebble. So that's something we didn't mention. It is a smartwatch, but it is an e-paper display smartwatch. Part of the kind of sell of Pebble is that it lasted seven days. It did very basic stuff. It was very nerdy. It was a very open ecosystem. You could develop for it. It was this awesome community.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  You could see it in sunlight.

• 54:27David Imel?

  You could see it in sunlight.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Tiny three-pin charger. It was, it was pretty solid. I remember that now, the battery life being so long.

• 54:32David Imel?

  Yeah. Now, something you might not know is the founder of Pebble is Eric Michikovsky, which is the same guy that made Beeper that we talked about.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 54:42David Imel?

  A number of months ago.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Whole world.

• 54:43David Imel?

  Beeper was that app that basically hooked into iMessage and kind of temporarily disrupted Apple until they shut it down. Um, and I was completely wrong about whether or not that would last. But you know, here we are. So Eric has been apparently rallying Google for a while now to open source Pebble because they have not been doing anything with it.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, seems like Google forgot. I bet Google bought Fitbit and forgot that they had Pebble stuff in there.

• 55:11David Imel?

  Yeah, I think they also forgot they bought Fitbit, but you know.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:15David Imel?

  So, yeah, he's um, he basically was able to rally Google to open source all of the Pebble stuff. And because of this, he's bringing Pebble back.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  And e Ink slash e Paper has gotten a lot better since 2012, 2014. So bringing Pebble back could be kinda neat. Like, I don't know, I'm, I'm still picturing the same general premise, which is a smart watch type device on my wrist with an e Ink display, a week plus battery life.

• 55:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  And like a decently fast enough refresh that I can get notifications, I can swipe them away, maybe I can, you know, control media on my wrist or something like that, like basic stuff like that. I think that would still be pretty cool.

• 55:55David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:56David Imel?

  I think that smartwatches generally are very overpowered for what a lot of people use them for anyway.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:01David Imel?

  And just like on a lot of smartphones, people would trade battery life for functionality a lot of the time.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  I would love that.

• 56:06David Imel?

  So Eric is basically starting a new company that is going to use the Pebble OS. But he cannot call the company Pebble because Google still owns the trademark.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 56:18David Imel?

  Uh, so he basically put out this, this website with a signup form where you can sign up to get updates on when new Pebble stuff is coming out.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah. So they probably, they won't call it Pebble, but they'll probably have, I'm predicting now, some really punny ripoff name from Pebble. That reminds everyone that Pebble existed.

• 56:35David Imel?

  Yeah, I believe the, the website is called Re Pebble.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 56:39David Imel?

  So.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 56:41David Imel?

  You know.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:42David Imel?

  I got on a call with Eric a couple of days ago to talk about this, just to kinda do some Q and A. You will be able to build on top of the new hardware's software because Pebble's gonna be open sourced. And everything that the new company builds on top of, on top of the software, they're putting back into the open source project.

• 56:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:59David Imel?

  Which is cool, which means you can build your own hardware, basically, and like flash it to it.

• 57:03Speaker 04

  That is pretty cool.

• 57:04David Imel?

  Yeah, so this is kind of like an open source device. Um, they are going to build new hardware, so I would love to see what that looks like in 2025, because like you said, the technology's gotten much better.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  I want a Pebble in the shape of a Moto 360.

• 57:17David Imel?

  Yeah, without the flat tire.

• 57:18Speaker 04

  Without the flat tire.

• 57:19David Imel?

  Well, they had the, they had the Pebble round. They had the Pebble round, and it was basically in the shape of Moto 360.

• 57:25Speaker 04

  Uh, bigger, please. Bigger screen.

• 57:27David Imel?

  Bigger screen.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  Bigger screen.

• 57:29David Imel?

  Okay. Other cool thing, um, because it is open source, it can run on basically anything that has a microcontroller. So if you want to flash your Pebble OS to your fridge, you could probably do that.

• 57:42Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 57:42David Imel?

  Someone will probably do that.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Someone's gonna do that.

• 57:44David Imel?

  Someone's gonna run Doom on their fridge on Pebble OS, for sure. They are planning on sticking to the core feature set of the original Pebble. Eric says that not everyone wants all of the features that you're getting from the Apple Watch and all the stuff like that, so that's exciting. He put out this blog that was about, uh, the things that he learned from having Pebble fail in the first place. Um, and someone is working on a port right now so that you can develop on top of it. So it's pretty exciting.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  The more you talk about this, the more I'm picturing like a pretty simple, clean smartwatch. Like, simple watch face, step tracker, sure.

• 58:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Maybe heart rate, I don't, I don't want too much more than that, like, keep it, keep it easy, keep it simple, keep it like a week plus battery life. I, I think a lot of people would be into that, and it would probably be cheaper. Cause you don't have this huge expensive LED display.

• 58:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  It has to get super bright. Okay, I'm in.

• 58:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  I'm in.

• 58:40David Imel?

  Eric had told me he was going to CES to talk to vendors, and I was like, what for?

• 58:44Speaker 01

  The vendors?

• 58:45David Imel?

  For now, now I know why.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 58:47David Imel?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 58:48Speaker 04

  I'm very curious to see what it ends up looking like for people to build on this thing, because the GitHub right now is like all written in C, which is very, to me, difficult to understand.

• 58:59David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 59:00Speaker 04

  So I wonder if there's gonna be like an easier way to write for this platform.

• 59:04David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 59:04Speaker 04

  Remember the, the Playdate?

• 59:06David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 04

  That thing is like, the platform to develop for it was a custom software that they released.

• 59:12David Imel?

  Right.

• 59:13Speaker 04

  That is super easy to use.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Like a game builder.

• 59:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I wonder if there's gonna be something like that.

• 59:16David Imel?

  That'd be nice, uh, right now he only has four part-time employees working on this, so.

• 59:22Speaker 04

  That's all you need.

• 59:22David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 59:23Speaker 04

  It's all it's Google has on it, too.

• 59:25David Imel?

  Yeah. And they forgot that those people were still working for them. Yeah, so I'm very interested to see if the community that loved Pebble in the first place like builds this back up. If we get some normies on this thing. I think a lot of people are starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed with how much their technology is tracking them. And the overkill of everything right now, you know? We've innovated past the amount that we need.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  I think, I think the reason that Pebble initially took off and had like one of the most successful Kickstarter's ever is gonna be even more true now. I think people will still like this.

• 1:00:00David Imel?

  What was the reason in your head?

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Well, it was a way to use your phone a little less. Like you would get the notification on your wrist, so you didn't have to take your phone out your pocket. And then the phone, the notification would say like it's a text from someone or it's an email or whatever it is. And then you can just put it down and then it would just go back to showing the time. And if it's simple, beautiful, shows you the time and you're not like poking around and doing all gestures and checking your heart rate and all that stuff. If you just want a simple smartwatch, I think that's, it doesn't have to be $700 smartwatch. It could be a 149 smartwatch and it could do all the things you want.

• 1:00:30David Imel?

  The animations were also very nice.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32David Imel?

  Also, this came out when the iPhone 4S was the newest iPhone. So back, yeah, throwback.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  That nostalgia too?

• 1:00:42David Imel?

  Yeah, I think so. It's the square one before they got round and then eventually got square again.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  I think the 5S was the first one I ever reviewed.

• 1:00:51David Imel?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  The 5S.

• 1:00:52David Imel?

  Wow.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  That's, to me, that's nostalgia.

• 1:00:54David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Pre, yeah.

• 1:00:56David Imel?

  Wow.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 1:00:57David Imel?

  About all for that.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  We'll keep an eye on it.

• 1:00:59David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Cool. All right, well, we should take another quick break. We got some something or nothing coming up, but before that, trivia.

• 1:01:09David Imel?

  Trivia.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  We're out of applause.

• 1:01:12David Imel?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:14David Imel?

  Slacking.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  So at CES 2018, Lenovo launched a standalone headset running on Google Daydream's platform. Do you remember what it was called?

• 1:01:24David Imel?

  What the Lenovo headset was called?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:01:26David Imel?

  Q87986X.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Close.

• 1:01:29David Imel?

  You have to put a ThinkPad in front of that.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  The ThinkPad face. The ThinkPad Elite Facebook.

• 1:01:35David Imel?

  Face?

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Facebook? Damn, I have no idea. I'll be totally guessing at that one.

• 1:01:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Answers at the end, though. We'll be right back.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

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• 1:02:40Speaker 01

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• 1:02:44Speaker 05

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• 1:03:13Speaker 06

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• 1:03:43Speaker 04

  Welcome back. So now we are going to do a game that we call Something or Nothing. Let's play a game. Let's play a game. So the rules are simple. I'm gonna read a headline and you guys have to tell me, is this something that we should care about or is this nothing at all?

• 1:03:58David Imel?

  I got you.

• 1:03:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59David Imel?

  Nothing at all.

• 1:04:00Speaker 04

  Nothing at all. Alright, first up, iPhone SE 4 leak shows single camera and no dynamic island. Is this something or is it nothing?

• 1:04:11David Imel?

  Nothing.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  I'm going with nothing. It's like, the one thing that's interesting about it is it, usually the SE is in the body of an old iPhone that's already happened.

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Which is why they can make it so cheap. It's because it's the part that they make already.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  This one, slightly air quotes, new design.

• 1:04:28Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Which is like, oh, they're making like a new part for this thing. Other than that, single camera does not surprise me. No dynamic rain, no dynamic island does not surprise me.

• 1:04:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  So I'm going nothing.

• 1:04:40David Imel?

  Yeah, they're keeping the dynamic island for the nicer phones. The SE is the phone I always buy my mom every seven years, so I don't think she's gonna worry about the dynamic island.

• 1:04:50Speaker 04

  You guys don't think it looks beautiful?

• 1:04:52David Imel?

  The dynamic island?

• 1:04:52Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  This is a, it's like a-

• 1:04:55David Imel?

  I like how it looks.

• 1:04:56Speaker 04

  It reminds me of like a Nexus 5 almost.

• 1:04:58David Imel?

  I feel like this is gonna be Ellis's next phone.

• 1:05:00Speaker 04

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:05:02David Imel?

  Hmm, that's, oh, because it's small?

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Because it's small.

• 1:05:04David Imel?

  It's not even that small, is it?

• 1:05:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Oh, you're right.

• 1:05:06David Imel?

  Isn't it like a 6" screen?

• 1:05:08Speaker 04

  It kinda looks like an XR.

• 1:05:10David Imel?

  You mean 10R?

• 1:05:11Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:05:12David Imel?

  Tenor?

• 1:05:13Speaker 04

  Tenor?

• 1:05:13David Imel?

  The tenor, what they call it in the UK.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I'm sticking with nothing on this one.

• 1:05:18Speaker 04

  Alright.

• 1:05:19David Imel?

  Yeah, nothing.

• 1:05:19Speaker 04

  Nothing, so we shouldn't care about it.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Rumored to be an OLED, that could be cool. But still probably not that crazy.

• 1:05:25David Imel?

  Still nothing.

• 1:05:26Speaker 04

  Alright, next up, OpenAI launches GPT-4 Government Edition. Less than nothing.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Is this just gonna be a repackage of GPT that's more expensive because it's government?

• 1:05:38David Imel?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:05:39Speaker 04

  Cool.

• 1:05:41David Imel?

  I think it's also, like, specifically tuned to government agencies. Um, I think it's just ways for OpenAI to milk the government.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52David Imel?

  So.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  The top comment on the Verge article is, why not DeepSeek? It's open source.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  And then the top reply is, uh, yeah, it's gonna be banned.

• 1:06:02David Imel?

  Yeah, it'll probably be banned within a week. What's the over under that DeepSeek is banned in a week?

• 1:06:05Speaker 04

  No way.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  It can't get, it doesn't have the clout yet for like that guy in the Oval Office to do anything about it.

• 1:06:12Speaker 04

  It took like a trillion dollars off the stock.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  That's actually very fair.

• 1:06:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Totally fair.

• 1:06:17David Imel?

  I do think that, yeah, I think they need Congress to be able to actually ban it, but I feel like they're gonna ban it.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Wait, so what's your run? Which will be banned first? Lemonade?

• 1:06:28David Imel?

  A hundred percent DeepSeek.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Or DeepSeek.

• 1:06:30David Imel?

  No, nobody remembers Lemonade.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  I got 20,000 people over there on Lemonade. That's actually true.

• 1:06:36David Imel?

  I got 1,700 on Pixelfed. You know what? I looked, I looked, I have the 18th most popular photo ever on Pixelfed.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Wow. Is it a good photo? What is it of?

• 1:06:47David Imel?

  I would say so. It's of Glacier National Park.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:51Speaker 04

  You couldn't even break top 10? I'm so disappointed.

• 1:06:54David Imel?

  Wow.

• 1:06:54Speaker 04

  Ever, Adam. I made my account two weeks ago.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  No, that's a flex. That's a flex.

• 1:06:59David Imel?

  Yeah, let me flex.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  I respect that. Anyway, GPT-4 government edition, I'm going nothing.

• 1:07:03Speaker 04

  Nothing?

• 1:07:03David Imel?

  Nothing.

• 1:07:04Speaker 04

  Nothing. All right.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 04

  Next up, Threads is officially getting ads.

• 1:07:08David Imel?

  Something.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 1:07:09Speaker 04

  Everything?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  This is everything. I called it. Didn't I tell you guys? Like, obviously Threads had their like,

• 1:07:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  You know, moment of exploding onto the scene. Hundred million users in five days, whatever it was. Like, everyone's, like, the headlines are all like, this is gonna overtake Twitter. This is the thing. We finally have a competitor. And it's Meta, so Meta's sneakily in the background like, yes.

• 1:07:30David Imel?

  Yes, come to Threads.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Meta's an ads business. But eventually, yeah, it's Meta. Like, we knew that they were eventually gonna do ads, so we knew they were building in the background, waiting to find a good time to turn it on, and they're gonna turn it on. And it's gonna be another Meta property with ads and what else is new?

• 1:07:46David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  But I'm saying it's everything.

• 1:07:48David Imel?

  It is everything.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Because this is, this is what they do.

• 1:07:50David Imel?

  Yeah. And now they've acquired a lot of users.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  And then people will migrate to Blue Sky, right? That's the next move?

• 1:07:55David Imel?

  Come on, babe.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Because Blue Sky, now, think about Blue Sky.

• 1:07:58David Imel?

  Thirty million yesterday, just saying.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  They passed thirty million users, Blue Sky. Will Blue Sky get ads?

• 1:08:04David Imel?

  Um, I have no idea. One hundred percent.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Because they are run by a company. Obviously, they're run on that open protocol, but they're still run by a company.

• 1:08:14David Imel?

  Correct. Servers cost money.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, this thing's cost money, these employees cost money, so does Blue Sky have to do ads?

• 1:08:20David Imel?

  You know, Blue Sky doesn't even use AWS. They run their own servers.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  That's expensive.

• 1:08:25David Imel?

  It's actually cheaper than AWS, which is surprising.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  With their current volume?

• 1:08:28David Imel?

  Because AWS is expensive.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  I guess it scales up with volume, so if your thirty million users are active on this thing, it costs a lot.

• 1:08:36David Imel?

  And they charge you for convenience.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  But you still have to buy those servers and like run everything. It still costs money.

• 1:08:41David Imel?

  It costs money, but it is technically cheaper. But yeah, I have been talking to the Blue Sky crew a lot recently, and they said they are thinking about the right time to move the AT protocol into the Internet Engineering Task Force, which if you watched our, hey, if you watched our special episode.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  We all just glazed over.

• 1:09:00David Imel?

  Come on, secret history of the internet, the IETF, they're the same guys that do email.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Shout out to them. They have one of the nerdiest sounding names of all time, but I appreciate that.

• 1:09:11David Imel?

  Daddy Vin.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13David Imel?

  Daddy Internet. I was emailing with Vin, uh, this weekend. It was crazy. It was crazy. I was like, I just have access to it. Yeah.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Vin.

• 1:09:21David Imel?

  You mean Big V? Internet Zaddy. Our father. Anyway, uh, yeah, so Blue Sky Public PLC wants to eventually move the AT protocol into a, a standards body, because they want to instill that trust, because currently, Blue Sky PLC is the same company that runs Blue Sky, the platform, and the whole idea is that, you know, they are not the only one on the platform, on the protocol, so.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  You're saying something.

• 1:09:47David Imel?

  Next one.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 1:09:49David Imel?

  Something. It is something for sure.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  It is something in the way Meta moves.

• 1:09:54David Imel?

  Do you think this will matter?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  What ads?

• 1:09:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  When ads hit, there will be a another moment, another reckoning for everyone on threads who has been preaching the word of threads. And they'll have to decide if they're cool with it or not.

• 1:10:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, but most people haven't been preaching the word of threads. They've just been on Instagram and then they're like, what's this? Click the button and now you have a threads account.

• 1:10:14David Imel?

  Adam, you're gonna start me ranting again.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Well, there's that movement. There's also the I'm leaving Twitter movement.

• 1:10:21David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  And then when it gets ads, they'll have to be like, I'm cool with that. That's not what I hated about Twitter.

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  I was just, that's exactly my point. Everyone is used to ads already, so.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, they exactly. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe, maybe this was gonna happen the whole time and it's like, it's just gonna be background.

• 1:10:35David Imel?

  It's everything for Meta, cuz it'll probably boost their revenue by like a lot.

• 1:10:39Speaker 04

  Will it? They have WhatsApp and Instagram with 2 billion users.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, but a cool, a cool 100, 200 million more isn't that bad.

• 1:10:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I could use another 20 bucks, I guess.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52David Imel?

  All you need to do, Blue Sky, if you wanna make all that money back, make very highly customizable.

• 1:10:58Speaker 04

  Ads.

• 1:10:58David Imel?

  Highly customizable profiles where you can have like a pink background and a, and a song that auto plays when you go to my profile.

• 1:11:05Speaker 04

  Nice, I love it. Next on the list is OpenAI's new operator AI agent can do things on the web for you.

• 1:11:13David Imel?

  So did you read these articles about this?

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:11:15Speaker 04

  I did not.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Okay. I, I have an understanding of what it sounds like it's doing based on the headline, but.

• 1:11:19David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Maybe, is there something deeper?

• 1:11:21David Imel?

  Well, okay, so operator is this new feature that they have with the expensive model that they have. And basically the.

• 1:11:28Speaker 04

  The $200 one?

• 1:11:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:30Speaker 04

  That's crazy.

• 1:11:30David Imel?

  Basically, it's suppo, it's in research preview mode right now. The idea is that you can say like, I wanna go on a vacation, can you book it for me? And it'll go to like TripAdvisor and then it'll.

• 1:11:41Speaker 04

  I still think this would be a banger video, we should do that.

• 1:11:44David Imel?

  Having AI like book a full trip for you.

• 1:11:47Speaker 04

  Book a trip to like Boston or somewhere nearby and follow the itinerary.

• 1:11:51David Imel?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:51David Imel?

  So they have like, it's very weird. They have specific partnerships right now where it'll use specific websites and services for all of these things that it wants to do for you, which feels very Rabbit R1-y to me, if I do say so myself.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  What do they call those, agents?

• 1:12:09David Imel?

  Agents, yeah.

• 1:12:10Speaker 04

  Oh, same thing.

• 1:12:11David Imel?

  Yeah. It's basically an agent that goes and does things for you, but you can see it like clicking around. It was funny, I believe Casey Newton did this and it booked it for like the completely wrong date.

• 1:12:21Speaker 04

  Nice.

• 1:12:21David Imel?

  Something like that.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  And everyone that has been using it, that has been talking about it on Reddit, says that it's really bad. Like, it's, it barely works.

• 1:12:30David Imel?

  So is this something or nothing?

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  If it works, it's something, but, but if it doesn't work, or if it works as well as rabbits.

• 1:12:40David Imel?

  Which is, which is not at all.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  Which, I mean, okay, it's OpenAI, so maybe I have to give them benefit of the doubt, but like, I don't, do you? I don't know. I also like, I am, I am heavy, me personally, in the camp of, I want to overthink each individual detail of the things that I'm doing. So instead of asking an AI agent to buy something online for me, I want to just double check it's going to the right address and that I will have the right shipping speed and all that stuff. And if I'm booking a trip, that's even more.

• 1:13:05David Imel?

  Yeah, no way.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  I, I tend to think it's already easy enough to do most of these things online.

• 1:13:11David Imel?

  The capabilities and the trust level have to, have to like merge. And both of those things, like the capabilities are moving at like one mile an hour right now, and the trust, trust levels are like going the other direction. Yeah.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  So I don't know, I don't know. I, I think currently it's kinda, kinda nothing. And I also don't really think that this is the way that we're going to be using AI agents in the future, so. Like Marquez said, like, I, I think people just want to make their own decisions. I can just book a flight. Let me look at the flights too. Like, instead of me going, hey, book a flight to Boston for me for this weekend. I want to look at all the flights, pick a time.

• 1:13:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Which, oh, the one at noon is actually cheaper than the one at, at 3:00 PM, so let me do that one instead. And now I'm going to plan something to do when I land at this time because it's earlier, like, I wanted, I want to do that.

• 1:14:02David Imel?

  Yeah, if you can, if you can do things like, check the available flights and give me options quicker than I could do it myself, then that's cool.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  You know, there's probably CEOs and stuff that are like looking at the $200 a month price and they're like, yeah, like, book me a flight, just do it. I don't care which one. And they'll just do it. And they don't think about it.

• 1:14:17David Imel?

  And then they'll get to the airport and they're like, sir, you're going to Paraguay?

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  And it's in three months.

• 1:14:22David Imel?

  I need your passport.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:26David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  It'll hallucinate. Yeah, I'll see. I'm going with nothing for now.

• 1:14:29David Imel?

  I'm going with nothing for now.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay. Next on the list. iOS 18.3 officially launches, which makes notification summaries italics. If this ain't something, I don't know what is.

• 1:14:42David Imel?

  That's not the official headline. That's what I wrote.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:14:45David Imel?

  Basically, Apple was getting a lot of flack because the notification summaries were saying crazy stuff. And it just lying a lot of the time because it was incorrect about a lot of things and trying to, especially because it was trying to group multiple things into one sentence, like multiple different events into one sentence.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Or topics.

• 1:15:02David Imel?

  Um, and now, when it has a notification summary, it is italic to signify to the user that it's in beta or whatever.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  Something.

• 1:15:14David Imel?

  Really?

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  I also think it's something. Shows that Apple's listening to something.

• 1:15:18David Imel?

  They just made it italic.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:15:22David Imel?

  Do you think, okay, this is my question. I have not talked to like an ormy and been like, hey, your notification summaries. Is it more obvious that it's an AI guess now because it's italic? Because I actually hate how it looks now. The italic look is not, not a good look.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  It's like, it's, it, so it has to just look different from a regular notification. That's the point of being italic, right?

• 1:15:46David Imel?

  Correct.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Okay, Apple understands that people have seen these AI summaries and don't like them. And if we make them look visually distinct from a normal text then, or a normal notification, then that's better than not.

• 1:16:04David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  So that's the ad. Some, that is something. That is, that's a something, that's a thing.

• 1:16:09Speaker 04

  I feel like it's something because this is a red flag for just Apple intelligence in general.

• 1:16:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Speaker 04

  I think.

• 1:16:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16Speaker 04

  Summarizations are supposed to be the easiest thing that AIs can do.

• 1:16:18David Imel?

  Right.

• 1:16:19Speaker 04

  Like, hey, take this thing and summarize it.

• 1:16:20David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:21Speaker 04

  And this isn't even the full Apple intelligence yet. Like, it's still rolling out.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Still need that Siri update.

• 1:16:26Speaker 04

  So.

• 1:16:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Speaker 04

  If they're having problems with this, how do I trust them to be able to actually do a thing in three months?

• 1:16:33David Imel?

  I really want them to do that reach into apps thing. That's supposed to be March. So.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even know if there's problems with this. It's just not a useful app, not a useful place to deploy summaries. Like, when I get a notification of like one single email.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  I don't need you to summarize the email. I'll just look at the subject line. Like, that's already good enough.

• 1:16:55David Imel?

  A subject is a summary.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I get three texts in a chat with someone. I don't know, it's three texts. Like, maybe a summary is useful, but I'll... All I really need to know is I have three texts from this person. Context in my brain is like, oh, I remember what I was talking about with them. That's the summary.

• 1:17:13David Imel?

  I think there's some value to like, the urgency of the text. You know what I mean? Like, if it says like, "urgent request needed", then I'm more likely to stop what I'm doing and go deal with the text than I am if it's just like, "this person texted you three times", and I'm like, "I'll deal with it later", you know?

• 1:17:28Speaker 04

  Notifications are inherently useful, though. Like, yeah, we get a lot of them and they're annoying, but they're there for a reason. So I feel like adding this layer of friction in front of the notification to like summarize it, that may or may not be accurate, is not really what people want.

• 1:17:44David Imel?

  They are funny, though.

• 1:17:45Speaker 04

  To go into the... Yeah, they are hilarious. If I could just go and open the app, or like swipe down in Control Center or something, and then choose a summary notification, then sure. But to offer it like right off the bat by default, it's like just another step.

• 1:17:58David Imel?

  Apple only really added AI to appease the shareholders, anyway.

• 1:18:02Speaker 04

  Bar.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  This is nothing.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  This is just more of the nothing.

• 1:18:06David Imel?

  Yeah, more of nothing.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Apple Intelligence is...

• 1:18:10David Imel?

  Nothing.

• 1:18:13David Imel?

  You know what happened? I tried to use Apple Intelligence on my Mac when it launched on Mac, and I used it on an Apple Note that was a whole script of a video I had written. And it summarized it, and then I hit Control, Command-Z, because I was like, "Oh", and I'm just testing the summarization feature. And then it crashed. And then when I reopened it, I could no longer Command-Z it.

• 1:18:40Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:18:41David Imel?

  I lost the entire script.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 1:18:44David Imel?

  So that was fun.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 1:18:45David Imel?

  Don't test in production, my friends.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 1:18:48David Imel?

  It's a bad thing. So I should have copied that note, but that's on me. Anyway.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  Is it? Is that on you?

• 1:18:53David Imel?

  Yeah, no, it's, it's.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Nah, it's not on you.

• 1:18:55David Imel?

  I'm gonna blame it on Apple.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  It's on them.

• 1:18:57David Imel?

  AI is bad.

• 1:18:59Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:18:59David Imel?

  Intelligence is bad.

• 1:19:00Speaker 04

  Next up, David did not win a ticket to the Switch 2 showcase in April, and neither did Adam.

• 1:19:05David Imel?

  Everything.

• 1:19:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:07David Imel?

  This is everything.

• 1:19:08Speaker 04

  This is everything. I agree.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Switch is so hype. Switch is so hype.

• 1:19:12Speaker 04

  So hype.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Dude, you had to win a ticket to look at it?

• 1:19:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Is that what's happening?

• 1:19:17David Imel?

  Right, correct.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  And you, so you applied?

• 1:19:19David Imel?

  Yep.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  For a chance?

• 1:19:21David Imel?

  Three chances.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  To look at the thing that you might give them money for later.

• 1:19:26Speaker 04

  No, no, I will give them money for it.

• 1:19:28David Imel?

  This is crazy.

• 1:19:29Speaker 04

  Let's get back clear.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Hype is out of control.

• 1:19:31David Imel?

  Dude, it is out of control.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Okay, so now that you're not able to look at it, you're still gonna buy it anyway?

• 1:19:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, probably.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  So you just wanted to, you just wanted to look at it, just to look at it?

• 1:19:40David Imel?

  Yeah, so they basically, they were gonna have three different showcase events where you could like, play with it early, but they had to ticket it and they had to have a raffle. And so they had multiple sessions for New York, Austin, and Los Angeles.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Wait, are you, is this paid?

• 1:19:56David Imel?

  No.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:19:57David Imel?

  It's a free event, but you.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  So this is just a hype cycle. This isn't, this isn't Nintendo making more money, this is them just driving more hype.

• 1:20:03David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  People will show up with a phone and make a 30 second video of it on their phone and put it on YouTube and Shorts and TikTok. And they're like, "Look at the Switch!" And it'll be like, "Oh, my god, I want the Switch!" And that'll be it. Yeah.

• 1:20:13David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:14Speaker 04

  That's taken my content strategy.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  No, that's smart. That's smart.

• 1:20:17David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Nintendo's smart.

• 1:20:18David Imel?

  Everything.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Nintendo Switch 2, Nintendo Switch 2, Nintendo Switch 2.

• 1:20:22Speaker 04

  And the last one, Boom's XB1 supersonic passenger jet goes Mach 1.1.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  I put this in here.

• 1:20:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I'm assuming you think it's something. I think it's nothing.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  This is, oh, boy, this is something. The return of the, what was it called?

• 1:20:37David Imel?

  The Concorde.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  The Concorde. If you have time for a tiny story time, I can tell you the story.

• 1:20:41David Imel?

  Heyo.

• 1:20:42Speaker 04

  We have nothing but time.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Okay, so, passenger jets?

• 1:20:46Speaker 04

  And that's it. Thanks for watching.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  No, the Concorde was like that super, super fast supersonic plane that did like cross-country and or transatlantic flights in like no time because it was super fast. It was twice as, almost, I don't know how fast it was. It was much faster than, it was, so it was basically twice as fast as a normal passenger jet. Much faster than the speed of sound. The speed of sound is like this benchmark of the obviously supersonic travel. It's a benchmark for speed for planes. Perfect. It's like 800 miles an hour, right? So the Concorde that crashed, you know, sort of retired that plane and we went back to not supersonic travel. But the thing that really hit me about this is, and I remember, we probably talked about this months ago, but what did you used to do on a plane?

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Before the Concorde, when you had a six-hour cross-country or transcontinental flight? Nothing. You just sat there. There is no internet. There is no TV. There is nothing to do. You just sat there. And so you were highly incentivized to get the faster flights so you could save more time, get to your destination, and then start doing things again. Now, if you have a six, seven, eight-hour flight, you're on the internet, you're on your phone, you can do email, you can watch a movie. You, there's a whole bunch of stuff you can do. So people kind of stopped caring about getting there twice as fast. And they have slowly, gradually ramped up this like prototype of, okay, we can go faster and faster. Then they got to like just under Mach speed and they just did a test run where they went Mach 1.1, so over the speed of sound.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Their eventual goal is something like Mach 1.7. They want to be able to go twice as fast as passenger jets. Basically, you can go anywhere in the world, from anywhere in the world, up to 5,000 miles in like four hours. Now, it's gonna be more expensive. It's the first one. It's gonna be pricey. I think United bought like 15 of these things and they're gonna slowly start making them. Yeah. Yeah. They gotta make them though. This is still in like the testing phase of like their, okay, validating, we can go Mach 1.1. We still gotta go faster and make sure it's safe, but we have purchase orders and when we start making these bajillion-dollar jets, people will be able to buy a ticket and go from New York to London in three and a half hours. It's sick. Okay, but one thing, we live, we record right next to an airport. Yeah. When you go faster than the speed of sound.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  Boom. Big, big time noises. Yeah. Yes. That's. Not ideal. One of the downsides. Okay, but there are certain slots of airspace that are approved for supersonic travel. So over the ocean, for example, or in the corridor for going from New York to London, or certain paths where you used to be able to go supersonic. This is, they did this testing in one of those corridors. So there are, there are places where it is acceptable to go supersonic. Okay. And so I think the idea of being able to get anywhere in no time, and probably also still be scrolling your phone on the way, I think is pretty sick. Yeah. That's why it's something. I would love to get to the West Coast in two hours. That'd be amazing. Think about that. That'd be crazy.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Think about that. The flight to California is typically five and a half hours for us. Yeah. What if it was two? In 20 years. Well, when they finish making the jets and they start shipping them and the tickets come down in price because they've got a bunch of jets out there. So that's 60 years.

• 1:23:55Speaker 04

  What's wrong with them and then?

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:57Speaker 04

  I'm not getting on that first flight is what I'm saying.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  No, oh, obviously. No, no, no, no, no. Nobody's on the first flight. I don't want to be, none of you are allowed to be on the first flight. But the idea is it will be something in 10, 20 years when we are back to these super sick. Like the jets we fly on now are so old. Yeah. They're not even necessarily old. They're just the same technology as forever ago and we don't really, we're more concerned with like, I mean, we're cramped back there. The legroom's not that great. The internet's not that great. The TV is not that great. Yeah. Like it's, we would like to do some upgrading. So I think it's something. I'm excited. Why not just make trains? Because it would take a whale. I have to channel my. A train to California? Channel my inner Ellis here and say bullet trains exist. These are different. Bullet trains exist to certain land to land destinations. That is fair.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Not in the US. But not to London. Not yet. Paris. Not with that attitude. A big tunnel? Big tunnel. An undersea tunnel to Paris. Big tunnel. And you can put your Tesla on a little track. Yes. And then it'll go, it'll, it'll. There can be, all I'm saying is there can be tiers of travel where like, there will still be regular flights like this, but there will also be, this will be an expensive ticket. Yeah. And this will be like, okay, you splurge, you take the bullet train instead of the regular train and you get there in half the time. And it's just an available option.

• 1:25:20Speaker 04

  I have a proposition for you.

• 1:25:22David Imel?

  We put all the rich people on the concord.

• 1:25:26Speaker 04

  They come to you and they say, hey, you can be the first person on this flight and get exclusive video rights.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. I don't want to be first.

• 1:25:34Speaker 04

  Nothing.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  I don't want to be first. I, so, so they're doing these test flights, they're, they're, it's like a Navy pilot and like, they're going in this specific, specific corridor and like slowly ramping up in speed. That's all great. Don't put me on those. Then they're going to get to like Mach 1.7 and they're going to be like, okay, we can do this at this speed and it's safe. Now we can, it's almost like car testing. Like when you see the top speed runs from like a, the Hennessy Venom F5 or some random car that's like, you have to do the top speed run in both directions with all the safety equipment and the professional driver. Once you get past that stage, then you can ship them to regular people and regular drivers. And so you can put real passengers on it and not worry too much. By the way, I'm just tangent city.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  These Boeings can go faster, just like our cars can go faster.

• 1:26:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, but.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  They're just, they, they operate at a certain speed in certain jet ways because it's most efficient for fuel.

• 1:26:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  And sometimes I'll get on a plane.

• 1:26:32Speaker 04

  This thing is just going to say screw it and just book it.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  No, it's going to be able to go even faster. But it's going to go at Mach 1.7 because that's what's safe. Mach four, let's go. Sometimes I get on a flight and will be like 30 minutes late from the gate and the pilot will go, we're going to try to make up some extra time in the air.

• 1:26:48Speaker 04

  And you're like, what do you mean?

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Really? And then I'll feel like we're going faster and you can, and you're like, yeah, we caught a jet stream of some downwind and we're actually going to get you 15 minutes early. And I'm like, you could have done that the whole time? So I'm like, why don't they do it the whole time? Because it's like going faster in any vehicle takes more fuel. So they have to be more efficient. So this is a plane that's going to be capable of going like whatever Mach 2 or something and it's going to go Mach 1.7 and it's going to be, it's going to be great.

• 1:27:14David Imel?

  Well, I for one am excited to be one of the first to get on one of the supersonic jets from Boom Technologies.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Boom XB1. Come, come into an airport near you.

• 1:27:25Speaker 04

  Hard pass.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  We'll see, we'll see.

• 1:27:29David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  That's all I got.

• 1:27:30David Imel?

  Is that it?

• 1:27:31Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  That is it. That means that we should figure out those trivia questions.

• 1:27:36David Imel?

  Figure out? I think you mean...

• 1:27:41Speaker 04

  Where are you going with this?

• 1:27:41David Imel?

  Hell, Adam, the answers I already know.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  I feel like I have one of them.

• 1:27:45David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 1:27:46Speaker 04

  Question one: David Koz and Damien Henri were two French Google engineers. With their 20% innovation time off project, they made something that was introduced at Google I/O 2014 Developers Conference. In fact, all attendees walked away with one of these things. What was it?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  All attendees?

• 1:28:11Speaker 04

  Um, well, I wasn't there, so I can't confirm that all of them walked out with it, but...

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  Did they give you freaking Nexus devices at I/O?

• 1:28:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, now you got like a water bottle and a t-shirt.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  Disgusting.

• 1:28:27David Imel?

  Although, pretty great water bottles.

• 1:28:29Speaker 04

  Two and a half trillion dollar company and they give me a water bottle?

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  And the same one as last year, too.

• 1:28:33Speaker 04

  Flip 'em and read. What do we got?

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  I wrote Google Cardboard, but I added a diagram to the bottom.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  I also added Google Cardboard and added a diagram to the bottom.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  So we should go by whose diagram is better? Well, first of all, are we right?

• 1:28:50Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, you are both...

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  I have three dimensions to my diagram.

• 1:28:59Speaker 04

  Oh, Marques wins because it is VR, 3D. You need three dimensions.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Hold on, here.

• 1:29:04Speaker 04

  Although cardboard is 2D.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  3D now, sucker.

• 1:29:08David Imel?

  It was literally just a cardboard box that you put your phone in.

• 1:29:10Speaker 04

  But you have to fold it yourself.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  That was what was sick about it!

• 1:29:14David Imel?

  Yeah, it was great.

• 1:29:15Speaker 04

  It was pretty dope.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  And it wasn't... I think like it was a Verizon promo or something? Like, somebody did it where the packaging of the box that your new Nexus device came in was cardboard?

• 1:29:25Speaker 04

  That's interesting.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:26David Imel?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's right, yeah.

• 1:29:29David Imel?

  Yeah, it was awesome.

• 1:29:30Speaker 04

  All right, next question. Going along the same theme. At CES 2018, Lenovo launched a standalone headset running on Google Daydream's platform. What was it called?

• 1:29:43Speaker 04

  I don't know if you can tell, but I have complete faith that Android XR is gonna be a thing. That's why I keep bringing these trivia questions.

• 1:29:53Speaker 04

  I'll give you a hint. It was the Lenovo Mirage what?

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Mirage?

• 1:30:00Speaker 04

  Mirage what? There's another word there.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Mirage face headset. I don't know.

• 1:30:10Speaker 04

  Flip him and read. What do we got?

• 1:30:12David Imel?

  The Lenovo Mirage Boom? Dang it.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  But air. Mirage air.

• 1:30:19Speaker 04

  Marques just wants to fly in that airplane.

• 1:30:21David Imel?

  I can tell.

• 1:30:22Speaker 04

  The correct answer was the Lenovo Mirage Solo.

• 1:30:27David Imel?

  Cool.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  Wow, that's depressing.

• 1:30:29David Imel?

  Yeah, it's a little sad.

• 1:30:29Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:30:30David Imel?

  Cause you're the only one who can see the thing.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  You wanna be more lonely?

• 1:30:34Speaker 04

  They were the only ones that were realistic about it.

• 1:30:36David Imel?

  That's true. Solo. Yeah, this is the solo. So you know what you're getting into.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  No friends.

• 1:30:42David Imel?

  This is like the Asus Republic of Gamers. You have a lot of friends now. That's what it's called.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  Republic.

• 1:30:49David Imel?

  Republic. Democratic Republic of Gamers.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad I got a point out of that. Yeah, that was fun. Hey, let us know in the comments. Would you get on a flight that goes faster than the speed of sound?

• 1:31:01David Imel?

  If the company was called Boom?

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  If they offered you a flight, if you're on the first one, it's free?

• 1:31:06Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  It's free, you're on the first plane and they go, hey, pick a destination, we'll fly you there for free?

• 1:31:11David Imel?

  Oh, my gosh!

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:31:13David Imel?

  I just remembered a dream I had like two weeks ago.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Was it flight related?

• 1:31:16David Imel?

  No, well, it kind of.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  I had a flight related dream recently.

• 1:31:19David Imel?

  It was about, uh, it was about going to the moon on like a Blue Origin thing, but it was all of us. But we had to do it like individually.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Pass.

• 1:31:29David Imel?

  And when it came up to my turn, I had like the worst nerves ever and something went wrong with the system. And I was like, I'm [bleep] out of here. You are not putting me on the... They're like, yeah, we had some engineering errors. It's gonna be an extra 10 minutes. I was like, nah!

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  That's a fair choice.

• 1:31:43David Imel?

  But Brandon was already in space.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:31:46David Imel?

  Wow.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  God, yeah.

• 1:31:47David Imel?

  All right, well, all our witches in the comments, please let us know.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, hit us up. Tell me what the dream means. That's what we really wanna know. Thanks for watching. Catch you next week. See you later.

• 1:31:58Speaker 04

  We're produced by Adam Malia. We are part of the Locks Media Podcast Network and our intro outro music is by Vain. So.

• 1:32:07David Imel?

  Do it!

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  And Alice.

• 1:32:09Speaker 04

  And Alice.

• 1:32:24David Imel?

  I can hear.

• 1:32:25Speaker 04

  You're good.

• 1:32:25David Imel?

  You're good.

• 1:32:26Speaker 04

  I need to also change.

• 1:32:27David Imel?

  You're good. And perfect.

• 1:32:34Speaker 05

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