The 2024 Internet Etiquette Draft: Share & Tell with Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard

After a holiday toast from the aged-out gasbag to his favorite creatures of the internet, we end the year with the important questions: Are phones too loud? Is listening on 1.5x speed insane? Should people post more ugly pictures of themselves? Can scammers really fake it ’til they make it? And are teenagers running the New York Jets? Plus: poetry-reading, grief-eating, the murder era of content, the quantum of dishonesty and the inevitable destruction that comes with inflated ego. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

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• 0:42Pablo Torre?

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• 1:27Pablo Torre?

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• 2:10Pablo Torre?

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• 2:56Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Instagram.

• 3:04Speaker 03

  We're out.

• 3:07Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  All right, I will be thrilled right now to be a passenger on this joyride as we head into the holidays, fast friends and professionally fulfilled.

• 3:37Pablo Torre?

  You're giving a toast at like the holiday party right now, the end-of-the-year holiday party.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Because I'm grateful for you guys, and I'm not gonna be able to talk to you again before the end of the year, and all likelihood, we're not gonna make content together. And if we're not making content together, I'm sure as [BLEEP] not gonna hear from Pablo, maybe from Mina, but if we're not doing something that airs on Pablo's show, I'm not going to hear holiday friendship from him. Hey, Dan, let's have a toast. Let's connect on a human level as sharers of the human experience.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  I text with Pablo like every day, so I can't relate to this.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  No, I understand. You have a real friendship. Here, he's sucking at the metal arch teeth of make my content. Let's follow my curiosities into the abyss, Dan. Let's spend millions of dollars on me to make butter sculptures. Come on, Dan, more me.

• 4:26Pablo Torre?

  That butter sculpture was $3,000, just for the record. And also, I do communicate with you and Valerie, mostly because Valerie is sending Violet a gift that she does every year.

• 4:39Speaker 03

  That's the other thing. Oh my god, Violet hasn't fallen far from the tree in terms of being a taker. Oh, oh my god. She loves her unicorns. Unicorn lights in the sky. And I'm hearing stories at home. Oh no, I got her Unicorn Night last time as a book. This year, spoiler alert Violet, it's Unicorn Day to go with Unicorn Night. Get out of here.

• 5:03Pablo Torre?

  That's a great gift. I'll play here just a bit of Violet's imploring of Dan Lebatard in terms of him lending her his teat as well.

• 5:13Speaker 04

  How unicorns fly. I like their colored wings and I like everything about them. Thank you for knowing I love unicorns. Bye.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  I'm okay with both the visual of me breastfeeding Violet and also a new-

• 5:35Speaker 02

  He's spelling it out, Dan.

• 5:36Speaker 03

  And also a new show with Pablo and Violet that is called First Taker. Her father took from me first.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  The spawn his daughter takes from me now.

• 6:09Pablo Torre?

  I do want to start today's episode, though, with a different story. A story that also puts Dan in the role of increasingly ancient person. Because the story is titled "The New Commandments of the Modern Internet." This is on The Ringer, by the way. Jodie Walker is the author. There are some things in this, Mina, on this list that are resonant and also completely off. And I want to get your sense as a broad overview as we bring Dan into the specificity of an article that is subheaded, "Because as technological advancements push the internet to grow and morph into something ever more Byzantine, there are so many more opportunities to be annoying." It is something that I'm trying to reflect on in our year-end, sort of looking ahead

• 6:53Pablo Torre?

  to the new year capacity.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  I really enjoyed reading this list because as a creature of the internet, and I guess we all are pretty much at this point, I obviously have opinions about what sort of online behavior bothers me, what I try to avoid, fail to avoid, struggle with, and I think has some good suggestions and some that I disagree with. We're drafting, I presume, ones we agree with or ones that we have strong feelings about. And so do I go first or are we?

• 7:28Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Snake in this? How do you want to do it?

• 7:30Pablo Torre?

  I think you should be able to take whatever you'd like off the big board that is of your own creation.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  I'll start on book and take one of her suggestions, and it is one that I agree with, one that I have violated once and immediately regretted. And it's actually her very first suggestion. It's very specific. Dan, while you might not understand, like, this might not make sense to you in specific, I do think there's a broader thing here. So her very first commandment of internet posting or behavior is thou shall not put songs on Instagram posts.

• 8:09Pablo Torre?

  Hmm.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  And I, so this speaks to me, and this is where I want to bring you and Dan. Phones are too loud, generally. I don't like opening things on my phone, not just Instagram, but this is, I think, a good, it's emblematic of the broader phenomenon, websites, any social media, whatever, group chats, and it blaring noise involuntarily at me. I understand that I blare noise involuntarily at people for a living in some ways.

• 8:44Pablo Torre?

  All the time, across America.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  But I just, I just want more silence, generally, on the internet. So this is specifically about the IG thing, which was a change that Instagram made about a year ago, right? Where people can add songs.

• 8:56Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, Dan, Dan didn't realize when you post something now on what is called on main, on your main feed, you can now choose a soundtrack that plays when you basically begin to look at these photo parentheses S. Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Funny, because it harkens back, again, Dan, this is a different thing, but there used to be a website called MySpace, and you could put songs on your profile. Yes, this take is, my opinion is partially because a lot of my scrolling time is with a baby who I desperately don't want to wake, or, you know, and I don't want sound generally, but I, this is a larger thing with me. I just feel like the internet is too loud.

• 9:36Speaker 03

  Is there any difference if you actually like the song?

• 9:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 9:40Pablo Torre?

  Great question, Dan.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  It's not about the song. Yeah.

• 9:42Pablo Torre?

  See, I'm with Dan. I'm with Dan. Sometimes I'm like, this is a great song. This is a well-chosen, uh, scoring for this

• 9:51Speaker 02

  For a photo?

• 9:52Pablo Torre?

  Instagram carousel of, of someone's last 20 meals. But Mina, Instagram stories as a concept are a series of pop-up windows you did not ask for, all blaring noise. So why are you drawing the line? You must be against Instagram stories altogether, if that's, if that's your argument.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  This actually creates real problems in my life. I don't look at people's Instagram stories almost ever. And so we'll be in a social setting and everybody will have some feeling, they're like, yes, we all, you had an amazing outing to, you know, the Catalina Islands. And I was like, that looked really fun. And I have no [bleep] with what everyone's talking about. In my own household, my husband will post things on his IG stories.

• 10:38Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, Nick prolifically is posting on IG stories.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  No idea. I barely remember to do it myself. And I, I, I just don't look at them that often. And maybe there's like a larger theme here, by the way, Dan, which is control, which is I don't like the internet push, making me look at things and putting sound and video. I like to be able to choose it myself, so.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  That is great that you're still a part of that particular stubborn and thoughtful resistance. I have succumbed there. The internet feeds me. It knows what I want, and it has tricked this old man into feeding me things that will forever make me chase the curiosities. But one of the things on the commandment here is thou shall not repost someone's entire Instagram story. So your husband does that? You would never repost his story because he, you wouldn't do that.

• 11:28Pablo Torre?

  Mina's saying she's oblivious to him even posting it, which is even crueler.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  I just don't look at those stories that often.

• 11:36Pablo Torre?

  You know, I...

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Are you a big story guy?

• 11:39Pablo Torre?

  I am a big story guy. You would know that if you ever clicked on my stories.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  No idea. Zero clue.

• 11:45Pablo Torre?

  So Mina does do something, though. The stories she posts, which I click on because I'm a good friend, keeping up with my friends.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  She doesn't do it for her husband, though. Like, I wonder if her husband would be hurt by the fact that she has zero interest in the art he's making. He's a producer. He is a creator. He is an artist, and he is making stories about his life that his wife has no interest in.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  He tells me about them in person, in our house, and plays the music for me, and we have conversations about it. I don't...

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Our relationship really has very little to do with the internet. We met in like a pre-super-social-media time, and I'm not really public about it, and I don't keep up with him through his internet. That's how... I feel like I'm coming across as super sillious when saying this. I'm just being honest. This is just... We just don't... Pablo, you have a similar dynamic, I feel, right?

• 12:38Pablo Torre?

  Yes. Liz is offline. Liz is largely offline by her own desire.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, but she's also deeply embarrassed by how much of a showboat her husband is, needing to show his artistic eye in photographs, and she'd prefer not...

• 12:52Pablo Torre?

  Valerie has complimented my artistic eye in photographs.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  You have a great eye. You have a great eye, but my guess is that your wife has no interest in your need for whatever internet applause.

• 13:04Pablo Torre?

  Valerie is so much more interested in my photographic sensibility than my own wife is, and it does, in fact, feel quite conspicuous. My second pick is something that actually is involving Dan and Liz, because oftentimes, and this has been something that I have come around on, I used to totally disagree with this take, now I'm all in on it, because I've been... My eyes have been opened. So when we drive during the holidays, for instance, it's me and Liz and Violet in a car. And inevitably, I am plugging in, I'm driving, I have on CarPlay, the podcast I listen to, and invariably, I'm listening to The Dan Lebatard Show.

• 13:46Pablo Torre?

  And what I am doing is violating this commandment, which is, "Thou shalt not use 2X speed within earshot of another human."

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 13:58Pablo Torre?

  So I tend to catch up on Dan's show, I tend to catch up on lots of shows, on 2X speed on Apple Podcasts. And I have been told that it sounds like I am actually psychotic for wanting to consume anything at this rate. And it turns out that Liz and the author of this piece are in total agreement. And when I heard someone else do it, I was like, yeah, this is [bleep] stupid.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  You guys basically drafted the same thing, which is my computer is just giving me too much noise that's frenetic. It's either too loud or too fast, but it's just too noisy.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Well, his is more of a social part, which is I was complaining about the computer doing it to me. He was complaining about his preferences being projected onto other people. Because I don't think you're saying it's wrong to listen to stuff at ultra speed.

• 14:45Pablo Torre?

  I do it all the time.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  No, but it sounds cool. Mina, he's got, I think, you guys correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think that you two have a certain brain power that would be greedy about how it consumes. So of course Pablo would want to do it at twice the speed that others are, so he could keep getting, getting to more and more of it. And if I were hearing that from nearby, it would make me crazy, because that's not how human beings speak. I don't even like being near the energy of why do you need to consume information that quickly?

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Because you have like a 20-minute walk and you're trying to get through a 40-minute podcast. I do 1.75 personally, Pablo, but I have had the same experience in a car where it's come on and Nick's like, "What is this? This is horrible."

• 15:31Pablo Torre?

  This is incomprehensible, yes.

• 15:33Speaker 03

  But don't you guys find interesting that the stimuli is...

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Something that you need so badly that you need it twice as fast. And sometimes the computer is yelling at you too loudly. And that we're just filling all the silence with, with a speed and a noisiness. I don't want, God almighty, I'm complaining about the internet.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  But you guys, what you guys are talking about is just an energy, an information energy that is too, it's, it is invasive.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  I don't want it. I'm not seeking the stimulus. It's a time management issue for me. I would love to have a life where I could just listen to a 45 minute podcast in entirety on a walk. I just don't have that bandwidth anymore. I think there's an interesting though, point of differentiation between these two first and second commandments, because one of them, I am choosing the stimulus that you described for an informational purpose. There's like a function. The other is more, I don't like having it projected upon me. I don't like having loud noises and things put upon me, especially if it's not like work related, I suppose, or something helpful.

• 16:53Pablo Torre?

  So I do want to point out that Dan is on to something though, because the author of the piece says that such a sound 2X speed from so close, in a way that is insane. She says, "That sound is merely an oral funhouse reflection of humanity's need to consume, and it's terrifying enough to bring down this whole operation." I am guilty of this in this sense.

• 17:16Pablo Torre?

  I want to listen to Dan's show. Dan pumps, I don't know if you guys know this, Dan pumps out a lot of content every day.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  A lot.

• 17:22Pablo Torre?

  And so my desire to keep up with the Dan Lebatard Show with Stugatz requires me, within a certain compressed timeframe, to go 2X speed. However, the hypocrisy I was trying to allude to before is simply this. If you tell me that you listen to my [BLEEP] on 1.25, you're dead to me.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Really?

• 17:44Pablo Torre?

  I, I, I, because I, I, I, I feel like we are making something-

• 17:47Speaker 02

  I'm flattered. I'm like, wow, you want to get through this thing so badly, you're compressing it. You're speedrunning it.

• 17:55Pablo Torre?

  I am speedrunning others, but demand a glacial pace for the art that I make, is what I'm saying. I make something that is so deliberately precious, and I hate that other people are undoubtedly doing to me what I do to them.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  You're asking us to see the art in a butter sculpture? That's what you're asking us to do? Don't speed through it, let it melt slow. Don't let it melt fast.

• 18:21Pablo Torre?

  Dan, do you, does Dan have a draft pick, or is Dan just gonna sit there?

• 18:25Speaker 03

  Yes, I have-

• 18:25Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, Mina Kimeshaw listeners, we spent an hour and 45 minutes, like, breaking down Patriots, Bills, Jags, Raiders this week. If you want to listen to that at 1.75 speed, more power to you. My kings and queens.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  I do have a draft pick. My draft pick is thou shalt offer a little insight as a treat, so that I don't feel like all I'm doing is consuming, uh, things that are empty calories, that when I put down my devices and put everything away, I have nothing to, uh, offer the world as learning. I, I, any little bit of insight, learning, I would like to, uh, to be a part of, if, if, as, uh, my empty calorie experience consumes me.

• 19:10Pablo Torre?

  There is also, Mina, the subtext of that, which is that sometimes people will, like, hint at things. They'll be like, guess what? I got a new job, significant other, whatever else. And then they'll just disappear, or stop posting about that. And people will be like, so what, what happened? And Dan is, is crying out for, uh, again, human context around this thing you told me was important, but it is now gone in your life. Whatever happened to that? Shouldn't we hold people accountable to the posts that they make in terms of continuity errors? Is what that commandment is also suggesting.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Got it. You want us all to be grief eaters. Online, just plumbing the depths of each other.

• 19:49Pablo Torre?

  Yes, if a person that you love has disappeared, tell me why. Where did they go?

• 19:54Speaker 03

  Please, show me all your vulnerabilities here when we're gathered. Just, let's treat this as a safe space where you can give me your softest things and we can rummage in them.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  I feel the opposite, man. I, I don't, listen, if people want to share details of lies, as we often do on this podcast, more power to them. But when they don't, I am intrigued. I'm like, ooh, who's this genius?

• 20:20Speaker 02

  What do they know that I don't, that they're living offline? Can I give you guys some of my off-script ones?

• 20:27Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, yeah, go off the big board. What you got?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  I just wrote three that I thought, okay, ranging in, I guess, depth. One, do not criticize the way other people parent on the internet. Do not share your opinions on just parenting generally on the internet. Just [bleep] keep it off the internet.

• 20:49Speaker 03

  It's very controversial, man. Every, every parent I talk to is like, man, all these parents have all these opinions.

• 20:57Pablo Torre?

  Do you realize, Mina, that your take is itself a critique of someone else's parenting? You're telling people to stop parenting by asking and critiquing parenting.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Oh, they're not parenting when they're doing that. They're lashing out. Like, they're, like, the other day I posted something, this is back when my kid was like nine months, I was like, wow, sleep training, crazy, I don't know. And

• 21:22Speaker 03

  What a hell of a tweet that, you really had to rush to the internet to get that.

• 21:26Pablo Torre?

  Great take.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wrote something better than that. I don't remember what I wrote. But all I remember is some guy wrote, "Really glad that it worked for you and that your child wasn't up all night screaming in terror and like hating you forever and traumatized by the process." I was like, oh my god, I'm sorry.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Okay. This one's a little bit less general. It's an Instagram thing, so Dan, you probably don't know about this kind of format that people sometimes post.

• 22:01Speaker 03

  You might as well be speaking Mandarin right now.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  But you're gonna understand what I'm about to say. There's a thing that people do on the internet where they'll say like Instagram versus reality, and it's two photos, and they're always hot in both of them.

• 22:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 03

  Something, that's something, yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  It'll be like this. Instagram versus reality.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  It's like, this is what Instagram versus reality should be. Instagram.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  Reality. Yes. Yes, that is what it should be.

• 22:39Pablo Torre?

  This leads me to, if I can just piggyback off of that proposed commandment, which is, people should post more ugly pictures of themselves.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Yes, let's do that.

• 22:50Pablo Torre?

  We have wrecked the curve on what normalcy looks like because everybody is like micro-editing, and obviously in the age of filters, it's impossible to know. I assume everybody's using a filter all the time.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Let's zig while others are zagging. Let's take a lane no one would dare to occupy. Let's the three of us right now give the internet, which is forever, an ugly photo.

• 23:14Pablo Torre?

  This is good audio, I think.

• 23:17Pablo Torre?

  Mina, Mina likes to talk a big game about our movement that Dan and I are clearly actually aligned on, but meanwhile, Mina will pick a screenshot from anything she does in which she looks great, and I look like I have just vomited up something.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Pablo, have you ever turned on sports television and considered that there might be different standards for different humans? Have you seen the things that we wear and the way that we look?

• 23:42Pablo Torre?

  Nope, not familiar with this problem.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  How many times a day do you get called mid, just out of curiosity? Dan, do you know what mid means?

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Look at my edges and you'll find out.

• 23:52Speaker 03

  That was insulting. That was insulting to me.

• 24:04Pablo Torre?

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• 25:33Pablo Torre?

  Head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

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• 26:24Pablo Torre?

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• 27:36Pablo Torre?

  I thought we were gonna get to talk about this Aaron Rodgers documentary today, but neither of you guys have seen it. Mina does not want to talk about it. Dan wants to, but has not seen the thing. I saw all three episodes, and so I was like, we're not gonna get to that today. And then a story dropped, Dan, that I know you wanted to talk about, that brings us back into the realm of Aaron Rodgers, but more broadly, the New York Jets.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, The Athletic, Diana Rossini and Mike Silver, and forgive me for not knowing who the third person on that story is, but they have dysfunction.

• 28:08Pablo Torre?

  Zach Rosenblatt.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  Thank you. Uncommon dysfunction in the organization that includes some details of the owner, Woody Johnson, consulting with his teenage sons about things and consulting with their appraisal of Jerry Judy's Madden rating to not trade for Jerry Judy. And it's not surprising that these- Owners, even though they are very wealthy and powerful, can be super clueless. Also, not surprising that giant businesses would be run poorly by rich people who think they're smarter than everyone else, but actually aren't. I don't know, Mina, if you're looking at organizational dysfunction chronicled in this story and saying, "Man, this thing is polluted in a way that even MVP Aaron Rodgers would have been swallowed by."

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Because you cannot succeed in a system that has Woody Johnson doing some of this nonsense, that has people calling him, what was it, Mr. Ambassador? He made everyone in the facility call him-

• 29:04Pablo Torre?

  Ambassador Johnson, when he got back from his appointment to the UK, yeah.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  No, I actually, I disagree with that. I think if Aaron Rodgers is really good, none of this would really matter.

• 29:14Pablo Torre?

  Hmm.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  It's a lot of stuff around the margins, a lot of goofy stuff. I think the thing that's most troubling, and I doesn't seem to get as much as I did, is his sons coming in and insulting players in the locker room. That, to me, we should return to that.

• 29:28Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  But as far as whether or not like any player can overcome that, I honestly think if this team was good and well-coached, it wouldn't be an issue.

• 29:38Pablo Torre?

  The Suns thing is so good, like the details about them. So basically what happens is Woody Johnson goes, Trump appoints him ambassador to the United Kingdom, 2017. His sons were 11 and 9 at the time. Respectively, their names are Brick and Jack. So already I'm like, this story rules. Brick Johnson is a character. And so they come back, and again, Christopher Johnson had been running the team basically in Woody's absence, because he's over there overseas. When Brick and Jack return, they're teenagers and they are walking around like they, I guess, do actually run the joint. And so there's one anecdote, there are a couple of them that are just like, I cannot believe Brick is the shadow owner of the New York Jets,

• 30:22Pablo Torre?

  or maybe just the actual owner at this point, where there's a game in which they win. And they're about to give the game ball. Aaron Rodgers is about to give the game ball to somebody else. That Brick, yeah, Brick, before that can even happen, intervenes and gives what is described as a profanity laden like celebratory toast to, I believe, Garrett Wilson. And it's just like, this guy is actually interfering with how our team is operating. Like, they are getting in the way of everything. And the Madden rating thing of like, whatever, Woody Johnson is consulting his sons, and they are citing like Madden ratings on why they shouldn't get a future 1,000-yard receiver

• 31:07Pablo Torre?

  this season, Jerry Judy, is both comical and also kind of how super wealthy people also operate in the world. Lots of sons are a focus group for their dads who have lots of power. And this seems to be both a caricature and typical at a certain realm of wealth.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  I think that's stand where I come down on like, what I find so interesting about this story, which is, you know, it's full of hilarious and amazing anecdotes. I really encourage people to read it. But like, to me, it's less like, I don't read it and say, oh, this is why they failed. It's one reason why. But what I find most interesting is kind of what Pablo described, which is, this all just feels so emblematic of ultra wealthy people believing they have expertise and mismanaging an organization because of it.

• 31:58Speaker 03

  Oh, but let's look at this the way that it actually is. If you think rich people have giant toys, and you're describing to me kids, teenagers, spoiled brats coming from impossible wealth, where daddy insists on being Mr. Ambassador, but is an actual clown, and you have these great riches that they've always grown up around, and you guys are telling all of us, they were walking around the facility like they own the place. Because they do. This is their toy. And so of course, they would act like they own the place. They do.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  I am reminded of a quote Seth Wickersham once told me, which is that NFL teams are billion dollar lemonade stands.

• 32:45Pablo Torre?

  Oh, Mina, the Lakers have been called a family business. Like, unironically, for the entirety of their organization, basically, in LA.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  There aren't checks and balances with these teams the way they are with, you know, public corporations, with investors and boards and executives and HR. Like, I mean, they have HR, but like, ultimately, this is a great example of that small business mentality permeating throughout the organization. I can we go back to the thing about, though, them yelling at the players? Because Donald Sterling is the comparison that comes to mind, especially when you read about them being in the locker room. And obviously, they're not being accused of the same stuff that Sterling did here. But the story, there's an anecdote about like, Woody Johnson just telling Mike White he sucks. These teenage kids coming in and roasting players.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Like, that is wildly inappropriate workplace behavior. I found that much more damning than any of the funny stuff. And I don't think the NFL would, I mean, I doubt anything will happen or whatnot. But like, that, to me, is really outrageous stuff and maybe being a little bit underplayed here.

• 34:02Pablo Torre?

  The reason why it's so off putting and the reason why it evokes this like insanely imbalanced power dynamic, even though, of course, these players are, Mike White notwithstanding perhaps, making money that the normal American, the average American could ever dream of, of course. It's because you just get in football, this clear contrast between people who are in any way sacrificing something, like, personal risk? Like, it's a dangerous thing to do this? And the people who walk in and are basically acting like they're internet commenters, but also your boss? Like, it's just incredibly off putting. Not that the NFL is a sacred place, but simply that it feels gross that you would not have some level of respect

• 34:47Pablo Torre?

  as to what your employees are sacrificing for you.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Power dynamic, though, is really interesting, right? Because, and this is something, again, when we think about, I was... I don't laugh, but when people say, wow, nobody's gonna take the Jets job, or no one's gonna take the Jags job, yeah, they will. There's 32 of these jobs, right? So a lot of people are gonna wanna take them. Jams, coaches, this article won't change. Maybe if your guy like Ben Johnson, who has his pick of teams, the office coordinator for Detroit, you'd be deterred by this. But for the most part, they're not going to. And Pablo, it's the same thing with the players. Like, there's such a power imbalance here because these jobs are so rare, and they've worked their whole lives for them. And the owners know that, you know?

• 35:34Speaker 03

  When you say, "The Lakers, a small family business", obviously, that's a silly thing to say. But at least, in that scenario, it is the one business that family has had and grown up in, and they have no other businesses. In the cases that we're talking about, the team ownership is the thing on the side from the other wealth. The games are the actual toy. This rich family has a series of players that we can consider human and amazing, but this is the toy, is the side business. So when you add the power dynamic to that, spoiled teenage kids could arrive in a place when they think the athletes are like family pets. You can kick the dog if you're coming home

• 36:17Speaker 03

  to a house where nobody actually respects the dog, and there's the dysfunction in the house where there's anger. Like, this thing is a toy to a Woody Johnson that, while he lives in the shadows, I think most of us know to be a clown. Like, most of us know, not just because of Jets ownership, most of the details we know about Woody Johnson are not flattering to Woody Johnson, are not things that say that Woody Johnson is excellent at anything that we know about.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  It's also a job that it might be... I mean, God, are there any other examples in, like, corporate America, or, I mean, where somebody can be, quote-unquote, "running something", and have zero qualifications, zero... Oh, Mina, can I? ...experience, never climbed the ladder to get there? And some owners recognize that. I wanna be... Heard stories about owners are like, "Cool, I don't know anything. Hands off. Here's my money."

• 37:12Pablo Torre?

  Which is the dream. That is, by the way, every GM you talk to will say

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:17Pablo Torre?

  They love nothing more than an owner who actually does-

• 37:20Speaker 02

  There are guys like that.

• 37:21Speaker 03

  Very few, though. Very few, though.

• 37:23Pablo Torre?

  They are the exception. They are the exception.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  And then there's a lot in the middle. This appears to be at the extreme end of interference. But like, again, this cuts back to the audacity, the unearned sense of expertise and the entitlement. You don't, like, what gives you the right to believe you can even make these calls?

• 37:46Pablo Torre?

  You know what it reminds me of, though? It's like, so there was a story recently about Succession. And again, Succession, it's sort of like, "Look, I'm a savvy person who knows about business on some level. I'm a journalist." Like, I know that Succession is taking creative liberties. Like, it's not actually as absurd. And there's this story that is seemingly soundly reported about how, actually, the Murdoch family was watching Succession, and they said, "Oh, we should figure out our estate planning." Because they were watching a show that was a parody of their own family, in which they did not actually take the hint of, like, "We should figure this out," until they watched the parody version. Stories like this, they're just so on the nose sometimes, where you're like,

• 38:29Pablo Torre?

  "I can't believe that this is what it's like to win the game." The game of life is that you're actually deeply clownish in a way that, by the way, is surprising because I thought, again, that the story we were gonna talk about was how much Aaron Rodgers and this documentary was itself shambolic, and instead, Mina, like, if you're to power rank, like, the winners of this story? Like, Rodgers is up there. Here we have actually some reporting relative to the previous news cycles all year that Rodgers was being not as powerful as we had thought, on some level. And then, of course, like, the real winner, reading between the lines, the GM of the Jets, Joe Douglas,

• 39:11Pablo Torre?

  who just comes off being like, "Oh, well, okay, that guy maybe was, per this reporting, not actually the decision-maker." Maybe conveniently.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Well, he was, though. I would just, again, to go back to what I said at the beginning. Like, all the major decisions that really have led the Jets to this point were not ones that, I said, from firing Sala, not that the season was headed in- You know, particularly glorious direction were once that the GM made. So, yeah, I think everyone involved in the Jets who's not the owner comes out better here because you're placing a lot of deserved blame at the owner's feet.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  Who were the sources? Who were the sources? Whenever I read a story like this, I'm like, who benefits? Who benefits?

• 39:48Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, who wins?

• 39:49Speaker 02

  We just, literally everybody but the owner comes across better here.

• 39:53Pablo Torre?

  I named the two. I do love the idea, though, that Aaron Rodgers was like, man, this Netflix stock is not the thing that I thought it was gonna be. And he's like, time to talk to three different reporters, who I, one of whom I publicly insulted as someone who should never talk to me. By the way, I did, so as somebody who watched the thing, I was, can I just give you my one conclusion from the Aaron Rodgers three-part documentary? So that you don't have to watch it. Because beyond the fact that it's bad, and beyond the fact that even like this culturally, politically ascendant figure is not really engaged with on the terms of why he is controversial, it's a lot of just like, Aaron Rodgers, says a woman at the Tahoe celebrity golf tournament, thank you for protecting my civil liberties. And there's like music underneath, and it's like very inspirational.

• 40:38Pablo Torre?

  Beyond that, I have a profile of Aaron Rodgers that is very clear to me. Number one, he grew up in a religious household. Number two, he grew up with a father who was emotionally repressed. He says that his dad cried only once. Number three, he's a perfectionist, always teetering on self-loathing. Number four, he's always wanted to transcend sports. Number five, he's always rebelled against authority by asking uncomfortable questions. Number seven, he says stuff like, quote, "The feeling you get when you can be raw and vulnerable with men is special. People just want to be seen and understood." And number seven, the last thing is...

• 41:10Speaker 02

  You saw that, Dan. Dan had fireworks when he said that line about men.

• 41:13Pablo Torre?

  And the last bullet point, Mina, is that he has said stuff in Spanish while on drugs. So I'm just saying that I think I'm working for Aaron Rodgers.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  I was gonna say the same thing. The fireworks that went off around me was me realizing, oh my God, I've looked in the mirror and Aaron Rodgers is me. I'm an enigma.

• 41:43Pablo Torre?

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• 42:28Pablo Torre?

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• 43:09Pablo Torre?

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• 43:53Pablo Torre?

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• 44:38Pablo Torre?

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• 45:04Pablo Torre?

  Mina, what is your story?

• 45:07Speaker 02

  There's been a few articles about this. The one that I sent to you guys was the Wizard of Ozzy? Is how you say it?

• 45:14Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I believe so.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  I was just about to ask you guys that because I was gonna call it Ozzy, but Ozzy is the way to go for now.

• 45:21Pablo Torre?

  It is sort of like, wait a minute. What is this? Where is this coming from? It was a thing that was very broadly advertised, you know, like for a period of time on all sorts of podcasts and buses in New York City and commercials and all that stuff.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  So this was a media company that was founded by a guy named Carlos Watson, who... Has a very interesting and compelling life story. This article, which is by a former employee and that there's a lot of layers to this that I think are really interesting, but it gets into his backstory. The son of a black American mother and a Jamaican immigrant father. He attended Harvard, Stanford Law, were from McKinsey. Goldman founded a college prep company, sold it. All of this is on the level. And then he starts a media company and it's really founded on this idea of like diverse voices telling diverse stories.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  And that's the starting point. What happened and the reason why this is in the news again is Carlos was just sentenced to 10 years in prison for basically defrauding investors. And there's been a lot of reporting on this about this company, but it was basically a house of cards. It was a media company that had festivals and advertising and a show built around him that misled people about misled investors, crucially for the purpose of the crime, about how many people were actually watching any of this, engaging with it, how many actual readers, listeners, viewers, whatnot they had.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  And he had an un like a really fascinating ability to just convince famous people to buy into him. Investors, I think Lorraine Powell Jobs was one of his early investors, Mark Lazarie, like big names, right?

• 47:20Pablo Torre?

  Yep.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  And then people who came on his shows. Bill Gates, Priyanka Chopra, Ilhan Omar, Sean Spicer randomly, Jamel Hill, anyways, Ava Duvernay, whatever, lots of people.

• 47:34Pablo Torre?

  When I heard, when I realized, and by the way, I'm now being told it is in fact Ozzy.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Ozzy.

• 47:40Pablo Torre?

  Because of course, sure, why not? When I, when I was told that Mina was a guest on the Carlos Watson Show, I audibly guffawed.

• 47:50Speaker 06

  Is a broadening of the sports broadcaster role. Gender is one of the dimensions in which it's true, but I also see that racially, that it feels like it's gone beyond white and black. And you see more indifferent in a variety of ways. I also feel like people are coming from different backgrounds. You know, you talked about being an investigative journalist and business reporter, and I see more people who are coming maybe from unusual places.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Um, it's getting there.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  That must have been 2020, by the way, because that was like slapped together backdrop from early HQ days before I even painted the wall behind me. So, yeah, so that, so this was, I think that's actually pretty important to this story, the fact that this was all happening in the pandemic, because this whole story is basically about like fake it till you make it, right? This guy who conned not just investors, but people to be around his programs and whatnot. And I, in some ways, kind of as we shifted to like remote program, I think that probably made it easier for him as everything became digital, because that is such a fundamental part of the story, too. The ability to fake things in media in the digital age.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  But the story of how I went on that was a PR, ESPN PR person, send it to me. I'm not gonna name who it is. And I wrote back, I looked and found the email thread. I don't know who this is, right? I was like, I mean, I guess I had a lot of time. It was 2020. And this person was like, well, all these people have done it, right? Like some of the people that I mentioned to you, famous athletes and whatnot. So I was like, all right, sure, I'll do it.

• 49:30Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, good investigative journalism, by the way.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  I spent zero seconds looking into this, right? But my point is like, in an age where so much media, so much of what we do is about internet presence and social media and basically being vouched for by who you know and who's on your, who you engage with on the internet and who's on your programming as opposed to earned credibility. It kind of makes sense that a guy like this, who was really good at convincing people and then kind of building almost a Ponzi of names thrived in this moment. And that's without even giving to a lot of the stuff this slate piece gets into about the diversity and DI aspect of it.

• 50:11Pablo Torre?

  Part of what he did by like Carlos Watson, who again was not a media figure until he decided to make himself one.

• 50:18Pablo Torre?

  And therefore, the audience, of course, was largely boosted by paid things and scammerish sort of strategies. But part of the thing that he got in trouble for was there was a fundraising call in 2021

• 50:33Pablo Torre?

  in which the guy he was working with, one of his like right-hand men who pled guilty ultimately in his own trial, misled Goldman Sachs by impersonating a YouTube executive, according to the New York Times. And prosecutors contended that Mr. Watson had helped set up the call, had orchestrated this thing where they were raising money with Goldman Sachs for this large media company by just literally doing an impression of a YouTube executive for a big bank.

• 51:03Pablo Torre?

  And it was, quote, egregious perjury, according to the judge. The quantum of dishonesty in this case was exceptional, is another quote from the judge, which is like as if Stugatz was James Bond, you would call it a quantum of dishonesty.

• 51:18Speaker 03

  That would be the album. That would be the album that Stugatz would put out as a musical selection, The Quantum of Dishonesty.

• 51:25Pablo Torre?

  It's a lot, Dan. There's just a lot of scammerish behavior here.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  Well, let's, let's, let's talk about some of this, right? Because there's one form of consumption that I have not enjoyed in entertainment or partaken in when it comes to watching things. The, the murder era of content that we are in, where so many people are consuming murder stuff I've not partaken in. But if you give, but if you, but, but if you give me cults. And you give me scams, I'm all in. I will find the Bernie Madoff documentary. I will find the bad actor documentary on Hulu. You guys got to watch that one just because What is that one about? A guy who was a fool and a terrible actor, ended up getting hundreds of millions of dollars to support

• 52:12Speaker 03

  his acting and to end up in films. And I don't understand how a fool could fool so many people for hundreds of millions of dollars because he had people believing things that weren't true. We are in the era of the scam. We are in the era of being so shameless that you can continue to break the rules and hope to be above them. Because look at what's happening all around you. Are you willing to take the risk for the things you want? And the shortcuts you want? Miami is built upon that as a infrastructure. Uh, just fake it until you make it. You guys are interested in which parts of this? The brazenness of it? Because the scam in general is always interesting to me. I don't know how these people sleep at night. I don't know how they don't feel like they're always being chased

• 52:57Speaker 03

  because they've got so many lies. And how they have the pathology that allows them the delusion that they'll always be smarter than everyone else and they will not caught. I've got to think that they don't have a fear of consequences. I've got to think that there's some sort of blind spot that makes the pleasure not be something that makes them consider the pain.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  The fact that this is a media specific scam that seems so easy to pull off, I think is really interesting, right? Because no one really knows these days how many people watch and consume anything. There's so much bull out there. I have benefited from it. I'm not saying that like I, you know, my, the things that I make are actually real humans watching and all of our numbers are on. I'm just saying I am constantly seeing numbers being thrown around.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Viewers, whatever. It feels like this moment in media more than any in the past. Nobody knows what's actually clicking and working and how real any of these internet numbers are.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  A quantum of dishonesty.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  It is a quantum of dishonesty. So I do think it's very notable that this man picked this industry in this moment, Pablo.

• 54:15Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I think that right now, for people who don't know, like, you see arguments all the time, like, look, uh, this X broadcast has X times as many viewers as the nightly news, or whatever, the entirety of the New York Times. And you're like, what are the variables? What are you measuring? And they're all different, right? Like, so just not to bore you with, like, a Nielsen household versus an X view, versus a YouTube view, versus an impression, versus a podcast download, versus a podcast listen, versus... There are just a million different ways to measure and can be spun however you want, by and large. The reason why all of this is especially interesting to me is because it's a media company in the era now of what is now an era that's over,

• 54:58Pablo Torre?

  which is the DEI diversity sort of push for people who are not traditionally represented in media to finally be so. And so there's, again, among the, like, awful statistics about... Dan, you're sort of like, wondering about how can a guy sleep at night? Like, 90% of the staff, according to his own team and testimony, were people of color and/or women. And so this was a diversity-plated scam, in which the premise was, we're gonna be the change we want to see in the world, at a time when, actually, there's money flowing into that for the first time, to this degree. And instead, it was a con that helped give ammunition to everybody who wanted to see a larger push for evolution

• 55:44Pablo Torre?

  as itself a broad scam.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Nobody knows, these days, what real consumption is on the internet. Circa 2020, all of these corporations saying, "We need to check a box in diversity and say we put this amount of money into a diversity initiative." He saw that, took advantage of it, and that is heartbreaking. This story in Slate is by one of those employees, and it is really beautifully written. And he talks about how upsetting it was to buy into this idea and realize that it was being exploited. And as Pablo has said, now it can be pointed to as an example of...

• 56:20Speaker 02

  What was a great idea and something that companies should be investing in, but it's a scam. And it's just, to me, like, the most devastating part about all of this.

• 56:45Pablo Torre?

  That's it. Like, for potentially my show, at least for this year, for lots of other things, institutions we hold dear. What did we find out today, guys, at the end of the year 2024? And also this episode, as you guys get the hell out of here?

• 57:01Speaker 03

  I found out that Violet, and I did not know this, because I thought the Torre family was something that could be trusted. I found out that the lovely Violet, who is bankrupting my, all my accounts by having my wife buy her gifts, is every bit the take her her father is. And I did not know that before today. She looks like an innocent, sweet child, but she is somebody who is selfish and greedy and almost as insatiable as her father.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Found out that Pablo's feelings are hurt, that I don't look at his Instagram stories. So I guess, no, I'm not gonna look at them. I'm not gonna...

• 57:38Pablo Torre?

  Great, great.

• 57:41Pablo Torre?

  I found out that I probably should get better friends at some point.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  Good luck with that.

• 57:45Pablo Torre?

  And also...

• 57:48Speaker 03

  How much better are you gonna do than the one that you and your daughter take from?

• 57:53Pablo Torre?

  What I found out today is that I gotta get a teeth that's a little less hairy. It's gross. It's gross, what I have to do for money.

• 58:13Pablo Torre?

  Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Rachel Miller Howard, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tumminello, and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo. And we will talk to you next time.

• 58:54Speaker 05

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