Main Character Energy with Issa Rae, Amy Poehler, Tyler Perry & More

We all know MAIN CHARACTER ENERGY when we see it—but it kind of hits different depending on the person, right? Today we’re bringing you a compilation episode of some of our favorite main characters and exploring how that energy shows up in different ways. We’re talking on screen personas with Issa Rae and Amy Poehler, and storytelling with Tyler Perry and Ayo Edebiri. Saweetie and JT speak on the business side of their success. Coco Jones shares advice for young people, and Ts Madison preaches the importance of not hiding anything. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is sponsored by Airbnb. Y'all, when spring hits and nature starts calling my name, you know I am headed straight to Airbnb to find the most loved homes to scratch my outdoor z itch. Now, let's get into it, baby.

• 0:48Keke Palmer?

  You know my next guest from her iconic groundbreaking HBO series, Insecure. Since then, she's continued to do amazing things like American Fiction, Barbie, has endless Emmy, Golden Globe nominations, also has an amazing restaurant, Somerville, that I need to get me a seat to go eat at. And of course, her wine company, Via Ray. You know it's my girl, Issa Rae. Hey, boo!

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Hey, what's up, Kiki?

• 1:15Keke Palmer?

  You know, everything is good. I'm living a good life because I've gotten to see you back to back days because we're doing all this press for our new movie, One of Them Days. How are you feeling?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  One of Them Days, I'm so excited that we got here. I was telling you yesterday, like, this has been a long journey. And props to you because you've been here since the beginning and so much has happened since then for you. Like, you are already doing big things, but I feel like your star has just risen on a massive scale. And you still stayed down. You still stayed committed to making this. So I'm grateful and happy.

• 1:47Keke Palmer?

  I mean, I've been watching you not only in front of the camera, but I get to see a close up view of you as a producer. I feel like it's probably the same people that you've been working with since the beginning, would you say?

• 1:57Speaker 01

  For the most part, yeah. Some people I found along the way, but like, some of the talent and stuff, like Sarita, who wrote the movie. We've been knowing each other since before Insecure. And Lawrence, I met along the way, but he worked with me on Raps. So it's just, you get the people you know and then you find new people who are just like, oh, you're so good. Like, join the clique, let's make something together.

• 2:19Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. I feel like in our generation, there's this big meta art thing that I feel like I've been like looking at. And what I mean by that is, I don't know if it's because of reality TV, or if it's just because of social media, but we always feel like our life is directly reflecting the art. And I know you speak a lot about how you use your own personal stories, a part of Insecure, whether they were your stories, or friends, or what was around you. And so, I'm curious in the process of that, how you made sure to not overexpose yourself, or feel like you're being overexposed, in terms of creating this character that is Issa D, and still maintaining to be Issa Rae?

• 2:58Speaker 01

  What a good question, and I, I wonder the same for you. Like, I

• 3:05Speaker 01

  I navigated that, and, you know, we weren't through this era where it was just like, people want more of you. They want more of your life.

• 3:14Keke Palmer?

  They want it.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Like, they want to feel in touch and in tune with you. And part of me was just like, ugh, no, do they really? No, do they? Like, do I want that? Do, do, am I ready for that? And especially, I think I saw early on with Insecure in those seasons, you know, spoiler alert, my character cheats on her man, and like, the hate that I got as myself, I was just like, dang, this is, people are having trouble distinguishing me, like, getting called a cheater on the streets. I'm like, it's a story, please. And I was thinking that a little bit personally. But like, that, that was interesting to me, where I was like, oh, I have to be super intentional about like,

• 3:57Speaker 01

  what I share about myself. I like, I like that people are upset with this character, there's a visceral reaction.

• 4:05Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  But I don't want people to conflate me with what they see, and overly think they know me. Because like, everybody thinks you're their best friend in so many ways. And I know that that has to be like there, you have to create those boundaries. And you know, it's a high compliment in some ways, but yeah, it's, it's, it's rough.

• 4:23Keke Palmer?

  I asked that question because I do feel like we're both similar. Maybe it's the earth sign energy, but it's like, I do put myself in my work because I want to explore these conversations. It's not because I'm ashamed or I have, you know, I'm, I want to be seen as perfect. But it's also because I feel like art is the best place to do that. I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to be like, here's all my business. But for me to alchemize it, you know, that would be so weird if I just came up to you and be like, so let me tell you what I did last night. That would be so weird. I don't want to waste your time, but I, if I want to take something that I've experienced in my life and have it to be of service to you, then I will represent it in my work. And then I do try to be as private as I can, you know, about my personal life. Again, not because I'm trying to be secretive, but because I feel like I gotta do that to protect the people in my life,

• 5:08Keke Palmer?

  to make sure I have something for myself and to make sure that I'm using my platform wisely. I don't want to give you bullshit. I don't want to give you bitter ass tea.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, truly, truly. And you touched on it too, like it is therapeutic. Like I wasn't in real therapy till like last year. And there's so, something so great about being able to work that, that out. Like whether you're in the writer's room or on screen or just doing it with yourself, like there's just, it, it really is just, it's fulfilling in that way to kind of examine yourself and to be a bit more self-aware. So in that way, like the art is, is the purest form. And that separation is, is also like, oh, I got it out and now it's, it's out of me in a way. And now it's for you. Like that part of the story is for you.

• 5:55Keke Palmer?

  And again, the brilliance of the character Issa D is that she was also living that in her own universe, where she's figuring out how her personal life affects her business and how her security and who she is as a person in her everyday life can make her expand in her world and her career and help her to have clarity and define who she wants to be. And so I want to know for you, graduating from awkward black girl, insecure, what that world was for you. What is that end game? In the same way that we figured out what it was for Issa D, what is it for Issa Rae that this next chapter for you has been about?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  This, Jesus Christ. Um.

• 6:35Keke Palmer?

  I know it's been about so much.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's about, but about honing and, and honestly, like that's, that's what I've been trying to like. Lock in on what that is specifically because it extends beyond the entertainment industry to me. And I have found that community is really important to me and building. And that can be done via storytelling really effectively in terms of using a platform to shine a light on things that I care about, that are issues. But it's also about doing the work. And I'm like, what's my version of doing the work? I don't want to be in politics, but I can affect politics. I can, you know, create or collaborate in programs.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  But the next chapter of my life, I think, will be more philanthropic in a way that isn't like, I'm not Mother Teresa in this, but I'm like, I care and I want to make sure that I'm not just doing things that are useless in the long run. It is about building legacy.

• 7:43Keke Palmer?

  I feel like me growing up and my experience of going on Tyler Perry's sets and seeing how everybody there is like, community vibes. I felt a similar thing with you from even down to the black-owned water bottles that we were using. And I don't know that people understand, like, that's a real commitment, you know? So like, for you, like, was that something that you say to the people on your team? And you have, and they make sure that, hey, this is important to Issa. We have to make sure that we have something black-owned, something, you know? Like, how did you start making that a me? Because, you know, it's not something that we can do on our owns. I think people just think, oh, just do it and just say it. But you do have to have people help carry that out. So how did you make sure that was something that was a part of your brand and your production company?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  I'm so glad you said that because it's not, it is, it's something that people have to be like-minded to also be able to carry that out. So it starts with conversations of like, what can we do? And how can we help? And if I'm not working with a like-minded, you know, costume designer in Iona James and Shiona Turini, like, who are like, well, we're going to get black designers, you know, that's our part.

• 8:48Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Or if in the props department, them seeing the ethos and being like, okay, well, I found this great black owned wine company and we we got this and and like that. That's those conversations happen and once people see other people are doing it, then it's such an easy. It's such an easy thing to do. It really it's not that hard.

• 9:06Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  And I think once people realize that and that they're mission aligned already, then it becomes easier. And that's kind of what I look for in collaborators is just that general awareness. People who who are mission driven and it's disappointing when they're not, but it's like then I don't need to to work with you.

• 9:22Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I think that's also something that is good leadership is the fact that you can empower other people to have leadership and that their voices matter. And you've spoken a lot about also having, you know, connecting to your peers, connecting to your community and your network of like minded people. So I think that just echoes that same thing. I'm curious of what the hardest part about being a leader has been or that you've learned in, you know, having to be the leader of something that could be helpful to other people that are entrepreneurs.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  I think general balance of management, you know, leadership is its own job. And when

• 9:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  comes to like being a creator, it comes to having multiple businesses, like your your focus is shifted. And it I think it's really important if you're going to be an entrepreneur to put resources in reading and learning how to be the best leader you can be. And if not, to devote resources to the the person that you want to to run your stuff, you know? I think that that's that's something that I've had to learn along the way is just like as hands on as I am and as controlling as I am, I need help and I need I can't. There's certain there's there's certain skill sets that I'm just not equipped for yet

• 10:42Speaker 01

  because I don't have the time to be the best and I want to be the best, you know? So that's been a learning curve and also just nipping things in the bud when they happen. Sometimes you could see something a mile away. And just be like, ah, I'll get to that later. Like, ah, or, or maybe they'll figure it out on their own. Like, they'll, they'll handle that. That'll be handled. And then if I had just addressed it in the moment when I saw it, then I would have saved myself conflict or time or whatever it is. And I've gotten a bit better about being like, let me nip this in the bud right now.

• 11:15Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm the same way. Because sometimes I think being the leader, especially if you're somebody that's like, not trying to always be like, I'm the boss of this motherfucker. Then, then you can find yourself like, oh, wait a minute. People actually want me to be like, I'm the boss of this and, and, and set some stuff straight. Because you're, yeah, you're thinking about like, I don't know. Like, I'm, I'm trying to make sure I'm supporting everybody's individuality. But then it does, you know, as a leader, it is kind of hard when you're a chill person to be like, no, I'm the person that's got to set up and be like, mm, mm, mm. But then knowing when the time to do that is right and when not. It's very, it's definitely a thing, you know?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't want to be reductive, but it is like how, how they say like, like kids need discipline. And obviously, everybody's adults here, but we crave discipline. We crave order. We crave like knowing a direction. And that's why you have to be kind of, you have to be confident in, in putting your foot down in certain instances.

• 12:13Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I'm definitely learning, learning that myself. Um, so I want to ask you, because I think you do a great job. And obviously, you're so huge in terms of representation, not just for women, but friendships, uh, for millennials, for black peoples, the list goes on. But that's also a lot of pressure. So I'm curious of how you manage, um, your personal perspective? And then just what people expect to hear or see about us? Like, how much, when do you have to let go of over being conscious about what you're representing?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  I don't think about it at all, honestly, unless, until it's coming out, until, like, oh, shit, like, this is, this is how people are, are viewing it. But when I'm making something, it really is just like what I want to see. I don't think I'm carrying anything on my back. Like, I just want to make the best possible product. And it also comes just innate, it's inherent for me to like, think about the audience that is, that I'm thinking about, whether that's, you know, my, my friends and family who are mostly black, like, I, that's, that's what I think about. And then it gets wider from there. But I don't, I feel like I would get tired if I was constantly thinking like, oh. They want so much for me.

• 13:30Keke Palmer?

  Guys, I am so excited for my guest for this episode because I know she's going to make me think and I know for sure she'll make me laugh without even trying. She's an actress, a producer, a comedian, an author, and a Golden Globe Award winner. The list goes on. You know her from SNL and of course you know her from her years-long role as Leslie Nope on Parks and Recreation, but also she's a cool mom. Amy Poehler, thank you so much for being here. Amy, yes.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Kiki, thank you so much for having me. I love you. I love talking to you.

• 14:03Keke Palmer?

  Today, I'm talking about personas, you know, personalities and traits that we either lean into or have to lean out of, depending on the different roles we're playing in our lives. The truth is, everybody, not just actors, everybody plays a million different roles. But as an entertainer, you know when you become Leslie, or you know when you become, you know, Amy, or when you're a new character in a sketch. So do you feel like that has in some ways made it easier to accept the identity shifting? And that maybe that's the reality of life? Or do you think it's made you want to kind of hunker down more and try to define yourself at different stages?

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Well, I think one of the best gifts about acting for me is that it does help me understand other people. I'm always trying to relate, stay relational. That's my work. I know because I, we've talked about this, Kiki, but I like to, you know, when there's a problem, I like to go to my spaceship. Like, yeah, I like to go into my capsule, close the door, I'm using air quotes, fix my problem, and then go back out and be like, good news, everybody, I fixed it. And everyone's like, could we have participated in this? Do you want to talk to us during it? So I like to self-regulate. So my work is to always try to co-regulate, like to try to have feelings in real time with other people rather than just myself.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  So acting helps a lot because it makes me empathetic. I can feel, like playing Leslie, I got to feel a lot of big feelings in real time with other people. And I've said this before, but... Doing comedy, I think, lengthens your life. I think it actually adds years to your life. If you can laugh in real time with people that you love, I think you've added years to your life. So it's like the opposite of smoking. So

• 15:53Speaker 02

  i- i- if that did feel, I was able to have real feelings in real time with people that I loved. So acting helps me get there because I can't always get there on my own. I, I, I have work to do in that space to do that. But you bring up something really interesting, which is, you know, I, I think that um, this idea of um, who are you to different people is is confusing because you want, you want to find your authentic self. You want to find out who is you. At the end of the day, what is that self voice? But we do have a lot of parts. We are all of the things. So

• 16:34Speaker 02

  yes, who I am to someone I'm working with professionally is different than some, you know, my oldest friend is different than, you know, when I'm talking to my teenage sons, like you got to figure out.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  I- i- it's just like the biggest riddle in life is to keep the self, your self-preserved and still realize it's, it's okay to, you know, switch. I mean, we all do it. We all switch.

• 17:00Keke Palmer?

  And then like also those are the, there's, there are some of those things that are really

• 17:06Keke Palmer?

  constant, you know, for me, I think the things about me, like no matter what I'm doing or where I am or whatever, like something that I feel like is true about, about me is that I'm always present. I try to be present or I am the kind of person that is gonna keep my word, uh, you know, that kind of thing. What, what are those things to you that come to mind? Where you know, okay, like that's, you know, a fundamental thing of me.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  That I love that. Uh, I find that about you to always be present, by the way, and to always keep your word. I find, I, I feel like I've seen that in action. Um, yeah, it makes me, the who am I question is so big that to make it feel smaller or more manageable, I try to make a list of values. So what do I value? So. Um, you actually talked about this with Ayana, I love that episode about authenticity. Authenticity being such a, you know, like the, being more important in many ways than love. And authenticity is a big value for me. I can, I can handle, I can handle it if you're being authentic, you're telling me the truth.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  I don't, I really, so when I'm feeling inauthentic, it's a sign for me that I'm a little dysregulated. That I'm, I don't know, maybe I'm putting someone else's needs over my own, or maybe I'm not paying attention to someone else's needs. When I feel inauthentic, so my hope is that I am the kind of person, at the end of the day, you're gonna know that if I say, I want to do this, or I like this, or I don't like this, I'm trying to be as authentic as I can. I do feel like I, I take that as a priority and I work on it. I'm not perfect, I'm working on it.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  And so I look at things that I value and that I care about, but it's, you know, it's so interesting because I'm, this is, it's so funny, you learn the same lessons over and over again. I, I always learn the lesson that people are different. And I know that sounds like the simplest lesson.

• 19:16Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  When you look at, when you look at the way people handle things, and you think, I would never handle it that way. It, it's just.

• 19:26Keke Palmer?

  Well, that's the whole, that then is like, you know, that's the personal thing of it all, right? That's the, um, the detachment theory and all this old stuff where it's like, how do you not put yourself inside of that when someone is projecting so much on you? How do you then not internalize it as, well, I wouldn't do this, or that's not how, you know? Because it, but, but it's human because it's coming from a place of not understanding. And like you said, I think playing different characters, that does help us get a, a kind of different vantage point on people. But even still, as the observer of yourself and observer of others, you're gonna fall into the storyline every time.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, you know, when you're playing characters, like let's say you're improvising, right? You have to be like an active listener. You know, you have to be, you know, you're in a scene, there's two people. Starting a scene and you have to lean in and really actively listen. Where are we? What are we doing? What, you know, what are you talking about even? Like that kind of active listening does help you get out of your own head. I think anytime I get, someone does something and I get like caught in my story in my own head. I remind myself like, maybe just lis- just take one more minute to listen before you react.

• 20:44Keke Palmer?

  For me, it's the drama sign because I think for me, life is quite dramatic. Like when I've decided to be, you know, Lauren Keanu Palmer and be this human. There's a, there's this little bitty version inside of me that's like, play the role bitch. Play the role. And when I get into my storyline, it gets either happy or sad. And it's those stark, extreme differences that I think I'm always riding the wave of. And as I've gotten older, I've tried to find the in-between and continue to remember there's that little person in the back that decided to be a part of the storyline that can also say, I don't have to be right now. This is too much for me. Let me be the in-between. Let me be the balance between these two emotions. For you, what?

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Oh my God, I, I'm picturing that happy. I'm picturing that comedy tragedy. You should, you should make four other faces that are in-between comedy and tragedy. And like, what are they? That is such a cool exercise. What are the four other things you get to be in-between comedy and tragedy? That's so, so cool.

• 21:54Keke Palmer?

  If these April showers got you feeling some type of way, your girl Kiki knows exactly what you need. Some time to reconnect with nature, courtesy of Airbnb. Whether you're craving a mountain escape where you can literally touch the clouds or need to get your zen on in a desert oasis, these homes are giving return to nature realness in the best way possible. This time of year, I start getting antsy. Y'all know I've been working hard these past few months and baby, me and Leo desperately need some time away. So what's a girl to do? Take myself on over to Airbnb to find a guest favorite home in the middle of nowhere. Right now, I got my eyes on a cute little cottage tucked away in the forest. I gotta make sure that the place is private, well stocked and cozy for the gods.

• 22:37Keke Palmer?

  Bonus points if it has a crystal clear view of the stars and a lake where I can get my fishing on. And if you're like me, Airbnb has got you covered whether you're trying to escape the mountains, forests, or yes, even the desert. We're talking authentic experiences with more space and more privacy in the most magical locations. Book your next adventure today and let nature do its thing.

• 23:00Keke Palmer?

  Today's guest is one of the most prolific filmmakers of the past two decades. Of course, you know him as Madea in films like Diver Mad Black Woman and Madea's Family Reunion. You might have seen his TV shows like The Have and Have Nots or The Oval. His new film Divorce in Black just dropped on Amazon Prime July 11th. Tyler Perry, welcome to the show and thank you for being here. I mean, you know and the world knows you're my favorite. I just love everything about you and the fact that you're a Virgo just takes it over the top.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, Virgo season coming up real soon.

• 23:33Keke Palmer?

  So I want to talk for a second about Divorce in Black and how that came to you.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  You know, I heard this voice of this character kept talking to me as I started writing things down and it was Ava. That's how, that's how right characters will show up. And she kept telling me she's not a victim. She loved this man. She loved this man. And I had a friend who was going through a divorce and she called me up late one night. And she was just telling me how much she loved, loved the man that she was with and how hurt she felt. And I was explaining to her, you can be hurt by what happened, but don't be hurt because you loved him. You weren't a fool. You loved. And when you love somebody purely, love someone from your heart and you're pure in that love. It no matter which way it goes, never feel bad about the love that you gave because that's real. That'll find its way back into your life. So as I was exploring all of that and started writing, I wanted to make sure that Ava wasn't a victim.

• 24:22Speaker 03

  That Megan Good's character was strong, but also I wanted her to represent a lot of people, women, men, whoever, who try to love somebody out of a place of pain that they're in without having all the tools to get them out of that space.

• 24:37Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Oh, oh, oh, nope, I saw the look on your face. Yeah, what you trying, you went deep right there with that thought, yeah.

• 24:44Keke Palmer?

  And I mean, I feel that way about so many of your films where they have this vibe of being fun, lighthearted and thriller, but then when you get down to it, the message is actually gonna hit home. But to you, Mr. Perry, what, what do you say to that? You know, when you are in that situation where you're seeing people in your life, and I'm sure being as successful as you are, you have friends, loved ones, that you just can't seem to get them out of their own way. Um, what do you then do with those feelings? You just let them go?

• 25:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, listen to me, I had to learn to choose myself. Because there are people in moments that if you keep trying to drag them up to higher altitudes, where they can't breathe, they will die. Some people have only been equipped in their life with their life lessons or what they've learned to go to a certain level, that's it. And I, I have been guilty so many times of trying to pull some, you can do it, come on up, come on up. And it's usually the very people that you invest the most in, that you try and help the most, will be the same ones who turn around and try to destroy you because they feel like the jealousy, or you went to a place way further than they ever thought you should go. So what I've learned in this is,

• 25:51Speaker 03

  I, I have gotten to a place in my life at 54 years old where I look at people and go, okay, tell me who you are and I'm gonna believe you. Show me, I'm gonna believe you, I'm not gonna argue with you. I can't pull you up here if you don't know how to handle this altitude. So stay where you are. I'm, you're not a bad person, you're not wrong, but you don't know how to live up here. You don't know how to live at this level. So God bless you, stay, stay there and I'll do what I can for you on that level. But don't try to come up here and kill me because you are not able to handle this.

• 26:19Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, and I receive that. I, I remember seeing you say something similar to that about this altitude, and it's a great metaphor because it's also true. Look, if you're gonna die up here, then I should leave you behind because it's better for you to figure out what's going on on that playing field before you come up somewhere where you can't survive. You know, you were saying, If, you know, a lot of people might not have expected me to end up where I am. Well, you started out in a chitlin' circuit. What was your mind then? You know, were you always seeing yourself as someone that could get into film and, and things like that? Or were you just a creative that wanted to just get your work out there?

• 26:53Speaker 03

  I, I had one goal and I needed to make money to take care of my mother. Cause she was ill. I wanted to retire her. She was working with a bunch of kids and, you know, kids are little petri dishes for germs. And so she was always constantly sick and she had diabetes. So all my entire focus was that let me just make enough money to take care of her. And I had been through being homeless and in poverty all my life. So when I got a little bit of money, I said, okay, nothing seemed to be enough. No amount of money was enough to take care of my mother. I just, nothing would make me comfortable. And I found myself being in this place where I was uncomfortable all of my adult life while she was alive. Because no matter how much I had, it wasn't enough. So that's where it started. That's where the grind started. The working so hard started. It was all about, can I take care of her?

• 27:38Speaker 03

  And what I can say about my audience, if they never did anything else for me, they allowed me to take care of her to the day she died and give her a life that she never imagined. That for me, that's all I need to be grateful forever, forever, right? But, but yeah, starting out in the, in the stage shows, I didn't go into Hollywood. I didn't come in through that system. So I didn't have the stamp or the carving that that system will give you. It'll carve you into a hole, into a box. And you have to operate in that box. Well, I was malleable and loose, so I didn't come in through that. So I could do things outside of the box. And I think that's put me in this position. So I'm grateful for not coming through Hollywood.

• 28:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So when you did go into Hollywood, I think the first thing you did was Diary of a Mad Black Woman, one of your plays. Why did you choose that one to be your first feature film?

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Because I knew it would hit. I knew, you know, I got to Hollywood and then white folks and then white folks at the desk were like, "What is this? What am I gonna do this?" But I knew I had all them black folks who had seen it all over the country. And I knew what that meant for them to stand with me. So when it opened at number one, everybody in town was scratching their head. I'll never forget, it was Oscar weekend. Everybody's scratching their head like, "Where is this move? Who is this Tyler Perry person?" So it was because of all those people that I was able to do that. And still to this day, continue.

• 28:59Keke Palmer?

  And it's so amazing when I think about it because I remember before I even became an entertainer, you know, I started doing, uh, performing when I was about nine years old. But Madea, you know, and Tyler Perry had existed before then. So I remember being in Chicago. Oh, my gosh. I remember going to my uncle's and aunt's house and they're like, "Have y'all seen the new Tyler Perry play?" And they'll put it on and we're watching it. It was just insane. And I actually used the model that you had of, you know, your work already existing and being big and you having that kind of proof, that data, and being able to empower yourself in the film industry. I used a lot of that when I had to revamp my career, you know, from being a child entertainer and reaching this moment where everybody was kind of like, "Okay, you've grown up. This is what we see for you. If

• 29:43Keke Palmer?

  you're not gonna fit into this box, then that's that." So I turned to digital. You know, it wasn't necessarily stage shows, but I chose digital as a way to produce my own work and kind of set the stage for who I wanted to be. And if you want to get a part of that, then you can because, look, I have this audience and they're rocking with me. So either jump on board or not. And something I wanted to point out as well was when you started working with Lionsgate, I read that you had a deal that they would co-produce and distribute the films, but you would retain all copyright ownership.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  That's everything, yeah.

• 30:14Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. I think that is such an important thing when we're having this conversation about ownership and entrepreneurship and what intellectual property means to the creator. How did you know to do that? And how hard did you have to fight for it?

• 30:29Speaker 03

  I it wasn't a fight for me because it was a nonnegotiable. I was not going to negotiate with anybody about that. And because I had had that audience that had been with me, who had made me pretty wealthy going into Hollywood, I didn't need them. I was selling DVDs from my website at the time and they were bootlegged everywhere, but then people were people were finding them. But but I wasn't to to give up ownership as a nonnegotiable because what happens is I know what that does for for your future and for your power. And for what is the difference in waiting for somebody to give you a job? Or knowing that a check is going to be in the mailbox, whether you have a job or not? So I wanted to build this legacy and and and for my son and my future, even though I didn't know he was coming at the time. But also watching Oprah own her show.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  It was it was that example that are like, oh, well, what does that mean? She owns her show. Wait, wait, wait, that's what that means? So even from the beginning, when I was doing the stage shows, like my name had to be on the marquee. And my name had to be on the tickets and the promoters were getting mad. Who's this kid think he is? Why are you putting it? I was building a brand. I knew that in order to build that, people have to remember the name. If you order for you to stand out, you've got to have something that they remember. It's all started from my father, who worked for a white man, building houses. I say white man for a reason, worked for a white man, building houses, and he was a subcontractor. So on the weekend, he get his $800 and he'd be so happy he got paid. But I watched a white guy sell the house for for $80,000. I'm like, why won't you take the money and build your own house and sell it? Him and my mother coming from a Jim Crow South, they didn't think that.

• 31:58Speaker 03

  They would tell me that kind of thing is for white folks. They can't do it. But everything in me was going, that's not true. I can own the house too. So that's what this is about, owning the house and building it from that point of view.

• 32:09Keke Palmer?

  How did you tap into knowing that, right? Because we can we we can hear these things and we can feel these ways. But the action that you put behind it and the follow through is what makes the difference. Was this the people that you surrounded yourself with? Were you reading? You know, what was that that made you know that those were the steps you had to take?

• 32:26Speaker 03

  All I can tell you for me, I have a divine, leading grace on my life that I call the grace of God. That I just follow. If it doesn't feel right, I don't do it. I say, that doesn't feel right. Let me go this direction. And I've had agents in Hollywood be really upset with me because I wouldn't do this. Do you know how much money? That's not what I want to do. That doesn't feel right. I'm going to go this way. Tyler, that's, and they would always tell me, that's not going to work. Like with House of Pain. You know, when I went to do the episodes, they said, only do one and Polly will shop it around. It's like, no, I feel like I need to do 10. I'm going to do 10. So these first 10, they sat in a can forever. And nobody wanted them. And then UPN and WB, or WB and one of them, they became the CW. There was a merger.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  All the affiliates were without programming. So they started calling around, what do you have? Somebody said, this guy in Atlanta's got these 10 episodes. They put it on, the ratings were higher than what was there before. So it was like being prepared, right? So I have constantly in prayer, I want to be prepared for what's coming next. What is the next moment that's coming? I want to be clear about it. Like when I built my first studio, by the time I got to this one I'm in now, when I saw it, I thought if I had seen it first, I would be like, this is too much land. But I learned to build for where I was going and not where I was. So all of these things happened in progress as I was, as I was growing and working and paying attention to everything, to everything.

• 33:46Keke Palmer?

  What are you doing in those in-between times when you're making these kinds of leaps? Because they are leaps of faith. Like you say, you're, you're, you're creating for where you're going, but you have to have the faith that you're going there. What are you thinking in the in-between time that's helping you maintain? Um, when things get, you know, weary?

• 34:03Speaker 03

  Well, listen, I was homeless and out on the street and nothing for me was darker than that period, except for growing up in my father's house. So I know how to do that. I know how to figure out what to eat and I know how to be poor. The challenge wasn't that I didn't know how to do that. I didn't have an option or a choice. So the option of the choice was, how do I go higher? How do I have more? How do I embrace that? How do I embody what God has for me? And also the understanding of getting too worthy. We as a people

• 34:31Keke Palmer?

  Getting to worthy.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Struggle with being worthy. And I'm telling you, sitting in this seat and having all kinds of friends who have been wealthy since they were kids. And the level of they are supposed to have it, the level of I deserve it. It was powerful to see because then I see black people going, oh, no, that's too much. I don't know. No, no, what happened to this mentality? You're here, you're alive. Why not? If they can, we can too. So that's what I want people to get and understand fully is just open yourself up to being worthy of it. I'm worthy of this. I should have good things. I should have good health. My kids should be able to do well. I shouldn't be struggling, waiting for the next check. We have a pathology as black people of, well, we're only going to get money when the money

• 35:13Speaker 03

  is gone, which means that you work two weeks, you've got to spend all that before more money comes.

• 35:18Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 03

  We got to get past all of that so we can get to a place where I can have more than enough. I deserve more than enough. Our ancestors already paid for everything we have and we're not taking advantage of it. And it's nothing more frustrating, especially like, like I love seeing you, your hustle, your grind. But what I'm seeing, people your age and younger, looking at folks on Instagram, thinking that's how my life should be and they don't want to put the work in or the time. Like, no, no, because what you're seeing ain't really real.

• 35:46Keke Palmer?

  No, it's not real.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  So I want people to really fully get it, you know? I, I have people that I've worked with and I'm like, I know what they're making and I'm looking at them on private jets and traveling the world and going, who, who paying for that yet?

• 35:57Keke Palmer?

  Okay. I've seen it myself too.

• 36:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:05Keke Palmer?

  I am so ready to talk to today's guest. You guys have no idea. Okay, you probably know her, well, you definitely should know her from Hulu series, The Bear. Get into it. Or you might know her from the animated Netflix series, Big Mouth. Okay, she's my castmate. She's also an incredibly talented writer and stand-up comedian. It is of course, Ayo Adubri.

• 36:34Keke Palmer?

  I just need you to know. I need y'all to know that, you know, those of you who aren't here in the audience that are listening, her hair is bouncing and behaving. Okay? It is giving all the life that it needs to give.

• 36:47Speaker 04

  It's a little blowout, you know. A little deep conditioner the night before.

• 36:52Keke Palmer?

  And you know, that's, that's hard to attain, especially when it's hot outside like it is.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  I'm...

• 36:56Keke Palmer?

  Why would it be this hot right now?

• 36:57Speaker 04

  No, it's very disrespectful.

• 36:59Keke Palmer?

  It's too much.

• 36:59Speaker 04

  It's very disrespectful. My hair feels like, the follicles are covered right now. They're covered by the blood. I don't know, there's...

• 37:05Keke Palmer?

  Where are you from?

• 37:06Speaker 04

  I'm from Boston.

• 37:07Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so it's kind of like, does Boston get humid though?

• 37:09Speaker 04

  One small woo, that's correct. Well, no, because, well, it does get humid, but like, being by the sea, you always do have like, a little bit of a breeze. And growing up, the buildings weren't aggressively tall, so it wasn't like that New York thing where it's like, you're just sweltering under like, the pressure of metal buildings.

• 37:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 04

  Now it's, now they're building it up. Now they're trying to make it like a proper city. So, it's, it gets hotter, but yeah.

• 37:38Keke Palmer?

  Those buildings just get higher and higher.

• 37:39Speaker 04

  Well, how old are we?

• 37:42Speaker 04

  These buildings are just getting taller and taller. I remember when I was a girl, oh yeah. Buildings were probably about two feet, three feet high. Lot, lot taller than they used to be.

• 37:53Keke Palmer?

  Just going far as we can't go anymore. Um, so obviously, we're talking about storytelling. We're here with Audible, and you are extraordinarily multifaceted. I mean, you directed an episode of The Bear this year for the third season. That's insane. Writer, actress, singer. I saw you sing, I mean, you're fabulous. Um, so, not too much of the scene. That's the YouTube covers from high school.

• 38:16Speaker 04

  It was good.

• 38:17Keke Palmer?

  That's very much like a symptom of how old we are, though.

• 38:20Speaker 04

  And don't you want to know, like, how do people find this stuff?

• 38:22Keke Palmer?

  Stop looking for it.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  They were stalking.

• 38:24Keke Palmer?

  Stop looking for my memories. Like, we were out here with just a ukulele and a dream in high school. You know, just, just let them go. If you see it, you don't say something. We're living for you at all times. Um, so, I want to start off asking, because I was talking to you backstage before, like, literally, you do stand... Stand up, which is insane. I did like a little bit of stand up and it's really, I mean, it's such. I think when we see people get up there and do it, it seems like y'all make it look so easy is one, two, three. But the, the, the concept of like really writing this story in this unique form. It's almost like this long monologue that you don't know when people are gonna laugh. You don't know if they're.

• 38:58Speaker 04

  If they are at all.

• 38:59Keke Palmer?

  And then you gotta go, then you might have a heckler, so you gotta pop out and then get back into script.

• 39:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:03Keke Palmer?

  So I just wanna start from the skill of writing. When did you decide to start the process of actually doing stand up and getting into that style of writing?

• 39:13Speaker 04

  Well, stand up started when I was in high school and I was like very, I don't know. Simultaneously, I was very afraid and I guess very unafraid.

• 39:21Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, daring.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  And yeah, my, and my best friend who was also on the improv, uh, team with me at that time. He had been going to open mics and I was like, well, that's for adults.

• 39:32Keke Palmer?

  Ah, come on, that's for adults.

• 39:33Speaker 04

  We can't vote, so. Huh? And he was like, just trust me, like, you know, it's fun, like, let's just go. And we started going to these mics together and we were always like the youngest people there, but it was always just so much fun. And I think too, there was a point where I was like, oh, well, I'm not good, but I'm just as bad as basically everybody else here. And that's kinda comforting. And I also had a friend that I was doing it with. So that is how that started and we would send each other stand up that we loved. Whether it was clips or like downloads of people's albums that like somebody had given us. And so then we would like send them to each other for free, cause we didn't have any money to buy anything.

• 40:15Speaker 04

  Um, and then again, I feel like that instinct of me as like, you know, that's like me as a little kid. I always see when I get like very excited about an idea and I just wanna know as much as possible. I wanna eat, sleep and breathe it, basically. That's like, that's where that started.

• 40:30Keke Palmer?

  Is that when you think you realize like, oh wait a minute, this is really my, like this entertainment performance thing is really my passion that I wanna pursue?

• 40:38Speaker 04

  No, I don't think I felt that way until I was almost graduated with college.

• 40:42Keke Palmer?

  Really?

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Cause that was when I changed my major to study writing. The whole time I had just been doing it kinda like for me. Um, and I think. I didn't believe that like it was a real career.

• 40:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  For a really long time.

• 41:00Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 04

  And.

• 41:01Keke Palmer?

  What did your parents, were they, were your parents artsy types?

• 41:04Speaker 04

  No.

• 41:04Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 41:05Speaker 04

  Well, like, you know, they would take us to see a show or a movie, or, you know, we were surrounded by music and, and in like church, but.

• 41:14Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 04

  They weren't super expressive about it, like, and we didn't have like as much access, I think, also in Boston, it's like, oh, cool, the Urban Nutcracker and Wicked are coming again. Um, so it's like after Ohio, you're kind of all just like.

• 41:30Keke Palmer?

  Catching a stray.

• 41:31Speaker 04

  With, with much love, with much love, seen the Urban Nutcracker many a time, and probably will again in my lifetime, but yeah, it, it's, there's only, there's a bit of a ceiling, I think, to how much I knew, and it wasn't until I went to New York for college.

• 41:45Keke Palmer?

  Yes, New York will do it, wouldn't it?

• 41:47Speaker 04

  And I mean, but I was also seeing like black women, especially like actually making a living and, and I think my scope of understanding was so much smaller too. Like I couldn't really figure out a way how to like apply it to my life.

• 42:03Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 04

  And, you know, and even like when I was a little, there definitely was a period when I was like little, little, and I was like, oh man, like I want to be an actress.

• 42:11Keke Palmer?

  Amanda Bynes, Amanda, Amanda, Amanda, Amanda.

• 42:12Speaker 04

  And then you're like, you're kind of Googling, like, okay, how to do that thing.

• 42:18Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 42:18Speaker 04

  And then it's like, you read a story and it's like, yeah, like, you know, we packed up our bags and moved to California.

• 42:23Keke Palmer?

  It's insane.

• 42:24Speaker 04

  And I'm like, I'm gonna tell my African father to pack up the family's bags and move to California, be for real.

• 42:33Keke Palmer?

  And my parents literally did that, which is insane.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  But you, did you have family out here?

• 42:37Keke Palmer?

  No, my parents literally did that, literally.

• 42:41Speaker 04

  That's amazing.

• 42:42Keke Palmer?

  Drove four days, three nights, my dad took his pension out, but it, it is crazy though, it's a crazy thing, I mean, I think the reason why my parents did that was because they wished somebody had did that for them.

• 42:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:53Keke Palmer?

  So I think it was kind of that thing, you know, where they're like.

• 42:55Speaker 04

  Were you very like driven about it though?

• 42:58Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  Like, yeah, so that's the thing about me, I, I would give up.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  I would give up. I remember we went to, so I don't know if you remember this, on the radio, they would have like the radio Disney things. They'd be like, "Hey, if you're in the greater Boston area and you want to be on the Disney Channel shows, come on down to this big arena. Nothing weird's happening here." And so then you go to the big arena and then I'm like, "Here it is, like, they're gonna see. They're gonna finally make me a star." And I remember going with my dad and I just remember seeing all these families and all these kids that were just like us and very much a depressed child, like Emily Dickinson audiobooks sort of vibes for me. But then, yeah, I just remember seeing all those kids and just being like, "Oh, this is, this is maybe."

• 43:44Speaker 04

  And they're like, "Yeah, just pay $500 and we'll take you to Florida." Yeah, and so then I was like, "All right, let's go. I'll just keep reading, whatever."

• 43:52Keke Palmer?

  But it is that kind of thing. And I think that, you know, at that point that you realize it could be a career for you.

• 43:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:59Keke Palmer?

  How did that affect your creativity? Because I do think taking it seriously so young for me, a lot of times it was, like, I had to always kind of remind myself, "Have fun with it," especially as I got older.

• 44:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:08Keke Palmer?

  So how did that impact you coming from, this is for me, to, okay, this is actually something that I have to do for a living?

• 44:15Speaker 04

  I think it made everything blossom for me because I realized, like, I didn't have to put this, like, front on a little bit. Like, I didn't have to have this separation. It was okay to be vulnerable.

• 44:32Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 04

  And to like, deep dive, and I had a teacher who I remember always like writes stuff and I'd be like, "Eh, like, I don't know, it's corny or blah blah. I don't know if this idea works or whatever." And she was just like, "How do you know that? You haven't fully explored it. And also, what does being corny mean?" She was like, "Actually, what does it mean?"

• 44:50Keke Palmer?

  I love that she said that because people love to do that to you when you're not fitting into a particular body, especially as a black person.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 44:56Keke Palmer?

  We gotta always be cool. I don't know how to be cool all the damn time. What is that? You know, so I'm cheesy, corny, whatever you want to call it. I'm just trying to be me.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Myself and explore these things that it's like... Low-key, you wish you could. That's why you're calling me corny from your bedroom.

• 45:11Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 45:11Speaker 04

  Um, but like, you know, it's, it, I think, because it, it is scary. It's scary and I think people like see, can, they recognize that, because it's like you recognize it in yourself, but like, I think it's, we, we do all owe it to ourselves to explore the fullness of our ideas.

• 45:28Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I, I couldn't.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  Because nobody thinks like you, you know? I think that's such a superpower, like recognizing that. Nobody has your exact same thought. When you do, or when you say something at the same time as somebody, there's a reason why it's so exciting. It's because like 99% of the time, we have our own beautiful, like, unique thoughts. They're just ours. So like, when you do the world and everybody, like, the service and the gift of sharing them, and like, I don't know, it's, it's, it's beautiful. It's like a point of connection.

• 45:56Keke Palmer?

  How did you feel that you got to that point? Because I do think that it's difficult for people. You know, what was the thing that let you know that my opinion and my thoughts and what I choose to believe in is, it should be most important. You know, it's worthy.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  I don't know what exactly it was, but I do remember just being in New York especially, and I was sort of in the alt comedy scene, like, which.

• 46:20Keke Palmer?

  What does that mean exactly?

• 46:21Speaker 04

  So, there's like different schools of comedy, and you'll see, like, you know, more club comics, that's maybe like a little more mainstream. Like, there's just different spaces of doing things, and by that logic, different types of jokes and like different types of acts, but like, in the alt comedy scene, especially in New York, like, in that period of time, people were just doing whatever, and like insane, amazing things I could never have pictured. And, you know, now then, it's like, some of those people, like Julio Torres, like, was a writer for SNL and has amazing shows, like, on HBO, and, um, but like, at that time, it's like, you're just doing things in like basement venues, and, but, but I think

• 47:04Speaker 04

  seeing people do that, and knowing that I was able to see and feel the fullness of their ideas, and like, you know, me in a chair in a basement that surely has asbestos in Brooklyn, I'm like, being transformed by, by that, you know?

• 47:22Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 04

  Well, then if they can do that for me, like, why can't I? By that logic, why can't I do that? And even if it's not for somebody else, at least for myself, like.

• 47:32Keke Palmer?

  I love hearing that about the comedy community, because I do think it is very daring to get up there and not only just give this monologue, but there's so many stories that you're telling about yourself.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:41Keke Palmer?

  It's very vulnerable in every aspect.

• 47:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:43Keke Palmer?

  What different ways are you pulling when you're doing maybe like your character on the bear? Uh, how does your, your creative process differ from when you're doing your monologue or doing your show for stand-up?

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Well, I think that was like one of the biggest learning curves, especially when we started, because Chris and I knew each other from comedy and from writing. That's how, you know, we met and he had seen me perform and he was like, "No, you can do this." And I was like, "Are we su- are we sure?" Um, it's just all to me like different types of collaboration. And like, when you do stand-up, yeah, for the most part, you are alone on stage. But I do think it is like a collaboration between yourself and the audience. You have to be able to ride the wave of their feelings. No audience is the same, they don't listen the same, they don't react the same. You might do a show in the same venue two nights in a row, and where people laugh in a joke is different.

• 48:38Speaker 04

  And that can tell you so much about like how that joke is gonna go, how that set is gonna go, how you need to adapt yourself in order to like make the set go smoothly. And also you kind of have to be willing to like change your definition of what that means too, like what is a good set to you and why? So, I, yeah, I think there's like that relationship and that collaboration. And then, you know, it's like a different one on set when you're an actor and you're like in service to somebody else's vision.

• 49:03Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 49:03Speaker 04

  And also like when you're doing TV too, like you and you've been doing a character for a few years or whatever, like you know the character, but then like a guest director comes in and they have a different opinion. And it's like, it's, it's all different types of like puzzles also, which I kind of love.

• 49:19Keke Palmer?

  I love what you said though about the, um, everything you said, obviously, but I love what you said specifically about the relationship with the audience. Because even when I think about that, even when I'm not on stage, especially now with, with social media as an entertainer. We're always having these really, um, you know, intense kind of like. We don't know each other, so it's kind of parasocial, but I do feel like you know me.

• 49:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:40Keke Palmer?

  And I'm trying to communicate my art to you.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 49:42Keke Palmer?

  How do you?

• 49:43Speaker 04

  And also like the line, I think, of personhood.

• 49:47Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 49:47Speaker 04

  Like, and like, the character...

• 49:50Keke Palmer?

  The character of who I'm presenting, who we're all presenting. Like, we all present somebody, because how can I really get you inside of me and knowing me?

• 49:56Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 49:57Keke Palmer?

  I'm trying to show it to you.

• 49:58Speaker 04

  Well, also, it's kind of like, that'd be insane to meet somebody off the street and be like, "Hey, so you want to know the inner workings of my soul?" It's like, that's a bit much.

• 50:06Keke Palmer?

  Literally.

• 50:07Speaker 04

  It's a bit much. So it's like, that dance is very, is very, very, very delicate. Yes.

• 50:20Keke Palmer?

  I'm losing my mind over our guest today, okay? A two-time Grammy nominee, the founder of a nonprofit, the queen of content and marketing, and all around, just an amazing woman. No one, including me, can get enough of her. Of course, I'm talking to Soo Weedy. Welcome to the show, girl.

• 50:37Speaker 05

  Hi, Kiki. Thank you, girl.

• 50:41Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so I want to go back to the beginning, because I met you, like, what, 2016, 2017? We had mutual friends, and this was around the time that... Well, first of all, let me say this. I think you're amazing at your marketing, and I watched it build over time. I know you said in an interview before, you see yourself more as a brand than just a rapper. What does that mean? What does being a rapper to you mean? And then, what is a brand to you?

• 51:07Speaker 05

  I feel like, as a rapper, as an artist, that's specifically music. And what I've built over these past couple of years, I think I became a multifaceted business beyond artistry, and I think that's what makes me a brand. A brand is Icy Girl. A brand is The Snowflake. A brand is...

• 51:28Keke Palmer?

  Pretty Girl Music.

• 51:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, Pretty Girl Music. A brand is all these things that have became centric for the Soo Weedy lifestyle.

• 51:37Keke Palmer?

  Yes, sweetie lifestyle. I'm here for that. Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 05

  It's me, you know? It's just a multifaceted image, and that's what I fortunately have become. So I'm really thankful for that, and I am very grateful for the fans who have stuck with me along the way.

• 51:55Keke Palmer?

  I want to talk to you a little bit about your grandma real quick because I like something that I heard you said about her that she kind of told you to always have seven different sources of income. Like she was an entrepreneur herself. So how did your lessons from your grandmother kind of help you figure out how to manage this so you could support your career?

• 52:13Speaker 05

  Well, when she told me that, I automatically was like, you know, how am I gonna get this money? And when she told me that, I was like in middle school. So I probably started, I started doing like bake sales and I was like.

• 52:23Keke Palmer?

  Come on!

• 52:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've always been about that money, okay?

• 52:29Speaker 05

  So, but then after that, another life lesson, I learned that, yes, I want seven streams of income, but what's gonna be the platform for that? The platform was music. So I had to put all my time and my energy into music. And from there, I was able to tap into these other ventures that I was interested in, like content, like makeup, like beauty, like fashion, like all these other things that I've always had an interest in, but you have to put your focus somewhere and then build off there.

• 52:54Keke Palmer?

  I think that is important, also a key piece you said is like, you know, because people always say, um, what is it? Jack of all trades, master of none. And I kind of resent that statement because it's this idea that you only can do one thing. But the truth in what it is you just said is, you need a bouncing board to be able to be important and seen in another area. So if I got something off the ground real quick, even if it's just real quick, now I can leverage that. So I think that's a great point.

• 53:21Speaker 05

  And you, all people should know that because you started in acting, you're great at music, you're now starting this thing with the podcast that has grown out to be this beautiful thing. You now get into all these other things. And we've seen Kiki from Akilah and the Bee. So I've always been a fan. So it's just nice to see another woman doing that as well.

• 53:40Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, it definitely does feel good. And I think that's why I've always had such an affinity for you, even just from seeing the music. But then like realizing, no, this girl is for real. Because you never know if people are for real. And I know a lot of people say, oh, you know, uh, they, first of all, I like when you explained it on one of these interviews where people were trying to make, you know, asking you about pretty girl music. And you're like, no, pretty girl music is, if you feel pretty and you not a hater, that's what it is. And I love when you said that because it's like, don't push your stuff on me. This is what I'm actually saying. But I want to zero in on it because how do you feel? You know, I feel I have my own stuff that people box me into. When they try to make it seem like you're just supposed to be pretty like. They don't want, you know what I mean? Don't do this, don't do that, we don't want to hear that, we don't want to do this.

• 54:23Keke Palmer?

  How do you manage dealing with that? Because you are beautiful, but it's like, that's not all I am.

• 54:30Speaker 05

  Honestly, how do I manage that? I manage myself. And my best, my best way to respond to those type of people is through winning. It's through my music, it's through my brand deals, it's the, it's through persevering. And I love me a good quote, I read one yesterday and it's, and it said, um, the people who are not where you, where you are will always say more than the people who have gone past you. So it's just like, yes.

• 54:51Keke Palmer?

  Ooh.

• 54:52Speaker 05

  He and you may get that, those constructive criticisms or those criticism or those comments, but it's just like, when you see the person who's giving it to you, where are y'all at in your life?

• 55:01Keke Palmer?

  Now that's T-Boo.

• 55:08Keke Palmer?

  Guys, I'm too thrilled for my guest today. She makes up half of the rap duo City Girls. She has her own lifestyle brand. And last year, she launched an initiative to help provide resources to formerly incarcerated women. Period. You already know who it is. JT, welcome to the show. Hey, girl.

• 55:25Speaker 06

  Hi, everybody.

• 55:27Keke Palmer?

  Girl, so where are you at right now? Are you in Miami?

• 55:29Speaker 06

  Uh, no, I'm in LA. I don't even, I don't live in Miami no more. But I don't live here either, but I'm working.

• 55:35Keke Palmer?

  You work, okay, you're working, you're in the studio, you're collabing with artists, you're doing your own solo thing, getting ready for your album. What you doing?

• 55:42Speaker 06

  Well, I'm actually out here finishing, last finishing touches. So City Cinderella, my first solo project.

• 55:49Keke Palmer?

  Girl, now that's T-Boo. How's it going so far? I mean, how do you feel about the project?

• 55:56Speaker 06

  I love it, I love it so much. I, I, I really, really, really love this project. Um, it's the type of music I would listen to all day, so. And I just feel like it's a missing piece to female rap in rap period right now. So I just, I just love it so much.

• 56:12Keke Palmer?

  Well, I definitely want to get into that and everything that you've been working on because girl, from Sideways to OK, you know, I've been so, you know, you my girl. So, I definitely want to get into all that. I also want to get into City Girl stuff. But first, I want to talk about your individual evolution as an artist, okay? Because you released your first mixtape when, what was it, 2018?

• 56:34Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 56:35Keke Palmer?

  How would you compare who you were then to who that JT was to who you are now?

• 56:41Speaker 06

  Um, I would say that I wasn't an artist then. Um, I didn't know much about branding and building a world around myself and how important it is to be a brand, a artist. Um, even when making music, you have to, you know, make sure that you are very unique with the world around you and what people know you for.

• 57:02Keke Palmer?

  So, what is that? What is the you of it all? What is that essence and that flavor? Is that Miami? Is that the persona that you started to evolve and go, you know, grow into after, you know, coming in the industry and just experiencing the world? Like, what, the JT that you grew into, how did you pull to create this aesthetic? Like, I have to know.

• 57:21Speaker 06

  I swear to God, like, what people don't know about me is, like, when I was, when I, I went to college for fashion merchandising. I had a business, um, called Fly Support where I made custom shirts, um, for football girlfriends and wives, because at the time I was dating a football player. I literally always-

• 57:36Keke Palmer?

  Now, that's T-Bow.

• 57:38Speaker 06

  Yes, I always, um, um, built around me and I always created motion and movement and money around me. I always accumulated success, like, always. I always been a hustler. I feel like the biggest mistake I did make was scamming because it landed my ass in prison, but I even made money doing that.

• 57:57Keke Palmer?

  Happens, God is good.

• 57:58Speaker 06

  Right. I always, um, been a visionary and I always just had the gift of growth and I just got favorable with my life, so I don't, it's just me.

• 58:08Keke Palmer?

  Amen to all of that.

• 58:10Speaker 06

  It's, it's just me. This always happened to me. It's just like, people get to see it now because you're just looking directly at me. But if you look back, back into my history on my Facebook, if you can look past those mug shots, I think a lot of people just stop at the mug shots. But they don't look at me. Like, they just stop at the mug shots and they don't go deeper into my history of like- I dropped, when I dropped out of school, I went back to school. And I got twenty-four credits in like, a year. And passed the FK and did everything. I always been smart. I always been elite. Um, but I just always been on my own timing. I can say that. Like, I've always been a girl of my own timing. It's, it's never been about-

• 58:49Keke Palmer?

  And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think that that's gotta be encouraged more. Because people try to press you and push you and get you out there before you're not ready. And especially when it comes to being an artist, you have to have time to experience and evolve.

• 59:02Speaker 06

  And it has to feel like the right time. When it don't feel like the right time, it's not the right time. I, um, met this little girl at my pop-up shop. She was a little girl. She was like six years old. And her, um, aunt brought her and she was like, she wanna dance for you. She wanna dance for you. But the little girl was so scared. So she was getting mad at the little girl. Like, she wanted to- I, I pulled the little girl aside. I said, "You have all day to dance, okay? If you wanna, whenever you feel like you wanna dance, you pick the song and I'ma let you dance to it. I will never rush you." The little girl tapped me and said, "I'm ready. Like fifteen minutes, I'm ready." She did her thing. And I let her know, "Don't ever let nobody push you or rush you to dance, because they want you to dance." And the aunt was looking at it like, it was just a good experience for her. And I feel like a lot of parents, aunts, and you know, like, family members are forcing people to be ready when they're not.

• 59:47Speaker 06

  And when you ready, you will know you ready. The world will know you ready. You will see that, okay, you're ready. So-

• 59:52Keke Palmer?

  It's, it's that thing that people always have where it's like, "Oh, I'ma miss my chance, or this is my shot." And like, you, like you were saying, people try to say that type of stuff online or whatever about somebody. It's like, baby, life is a marathon. Y'all love talking about that line when it comes to Nipsey, but did y'all know what he was talking about for real? It's a marathon. It's not a race. It's not where I started. It's not where I'm at in the middle. It's where I end up. And that takes time. It really, really does.

• 1:00:17Speaker 06

  It takes time and real work and real groundwork and real vision. If everything is handed to you-

• 1:00:24Speaker 06

  It can be taken away. So you gotta remember that. And you have to remember that even when it seems like you're behind, you're not behind. We, we all have a destination in life and it's all written for us. So just because you moving fast, that don't mean you gonna stop faster. Or just because you're moving slow. It's just, it's whatever, it's whatever you feel. And just make sure you happy. I remember it was a time, I went through a very depressing time, thinking that I was behind and I, and I would, um, my boyfriend would always talking to me about it and just like,

• 1:00:55Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 06

  It's just music and you, you can put it out at any given time. And if the song good enough, or it will resonate with a group of people. So you're never behind when it comes to putting out music.

• 1:01:07Keke Palmer?

  You're talking about Uzi, yeah?

• 1:01:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Keke Palmer?

  So Uzi, you know, girl, I want to make sure, I love that, I, I agree with everything he said and I know, and I, and I feel that on a real level from knowing him way back in Atlanta. He was in the studio, he be working and everybody in the city knew him, but it wasn't like everybody know his music now. And he acted the same way that he is today. And it was always like, I'm Uzi, I'mma be Uzi, like, he had this energy. And so I remember when I was like, that's the same nigga. I remember when he, we became the Uzi that we know now. And I love that he was telling you that because he's somebody that literally lives that. Like he lived that. I watched him be like, I'm who I am before y'all know who I am and I'm always gonna bring what I'm bringing to the industry. Yeah, he's like, he's always been that way. And it's like, it's true.

• 1:01:53Keke Palmer?

  There's an audience for everyone.

• 1:01:55Speaker 06

  He's a Leo, so he just know he just, like, you can't tell him nothing about himself, like, he never fades. He's so Leo, like, like whatever, like, so it, it, um, I'm lucky to know someone like him, you know? Even though I don't listen to, I don't listen to nothing, he say like, I still be going off on him. You know what I mean? Like, baby, you just stop, like, put the phone down, like, you are a celebrity. And I be like,

• 1:02:20Keke Palmer?

  But I do, again, I think everybody is different. I do love when you get into your bag and you be talking, you be dragging the girls. You know, I DM you real quick and I be like, eat hot up. Like, you know, I live for it. So it's a part of, you know, it's part of your tease. It's like, that's JT, don't come for her, like,

• 1:02:35Speaker 06

  No, don't. Don't, I love it. I, I, I, I love it. And some days I don't. It depends on the situation. Sometimes I feel dirty after arguing, don't get me wrong. I be like, ooh, girl, you's a dirty bitch, why was you standing up there?

• 1:02:51Speaker 06

  I feel

• 1:02:52Keke Palmer?

  But you know what?

• 1:02:53Speaker 06

  But you know what? I s- I have to. I always have to take it to hell with bitches because I don't know what it is about me. Bitches just don't like me. And I, and if you go and ask big bitches why they don't like me, I promise you they don't have no good. They don't, they don't have no reason. I think because I give this standoff. I don't wanna be bothered, energy to bitches, but I fuck with who I fuck with. And then when I fuck you, I fuck you heavy. I feel like we just all forced to be this kumbaya.

• 1:03:20Keke Palmer?

  And I feel like when you are. I feel like obviously you're very beautiful, you're very successful, and I think we sometimes are in this time where people think, well, because you have it all, I should be able to say whatever I wanna say with you. Like you, and you should deal with that. And you, you're like, no, honey. I don't care what you think I got, I don't care how you think I'm living, I'm still gonna drag your ass, no matter what. And so I think that's why sometimes people be, you know, I'm, obviously, I don't know what's in people's heads, but I know you're a nice person.

• 1:03:46Speaker 06

  But it's not only, it's not, it's literally not only the trolls, it's real people who's in my space, in my vicinity, who should not be even saying my fucking name, but they still do. And I, and I feel like they say it because they know I'm a re- and you right, I am. And, and it's like. I wanna change from that. I wanna, I really, really do. I swear to God, I really, really wanna pray that out of me. Like, I don't want to be that girl to react so fast.

• 1:04:14Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:14Speaker 06

  But a- but as of now, it's like, y'all just have me fucked up. I feel so, sometimes I feel like just be just like huddling up, like, let's get this b- and it's, it's just, it's just never.

• 1:04:26Keke Palmer?

  Well, I mean, let's talk about that because I do think that there is something to that when you are, again, a successful person, a beautiful person, you have something that people want, they absolutely will try to get you up out your spot. Oh, let me try to do, that's a very real thing. Like, let me get her in trouble, or let me get her to, but that's like, you know, that's the street type shit. People will try to be like, let me get him mad so he can get mad, you know? So definitely that is a form of hating to just say something and set the stage to gaslight you, you know?

• 1:04:51Speaker 06

  It's always when I put out music. It's always when I put out music. When I put out music with the city girls, I never used to argue on release day. It's like a release week. Ever since I been solo, baby.

• 1:05:04Speaker 06

  These bitches at my neck, I'm like, Lord, please leave me the f**k alone. But then I be like, okay, baby, let me put on my shoes, 'cause I'mma get out there with you every time. But I literally want bitches to leave me alone. Like, I swear to God, and it'd be the bitches at home, they'd be like, oh, she be starting sh**. Please, show me every time, every time, like, I never stop.

• 1:05:22Keke Palmer?

  I'm here to tell you, girl, as long as you're a bombist, these bitches are gonna leave you alone. So, you know, we're young, we have time to... My, back in the day, my mama used to cuss everybody out. I remember she would, we went to private school, she cussed out the archdiocese. She has changed so much. By the time she got like forty, fifty, she calmed down. So you got about like fifteen more years of cussing people out, and then you be tired.

• 1:05:45Speaker 06

  Fifteen more. Ooh, I don't know if I can do fifteen more.

• 1:05:52Keke Palmer?

  I am absolutely thrilled to have today's guest on the show. Okay, she is a powerhouse singer and actress who has been lighting up our screens and playlists. Okay, you might know her as Hilary Banks on the show Bel-Air, or from her hit Grammy-winning single, I See You. Either way, y'all, you're in for a treat, okay? Please welcome to the show the amazing Coco Jones.

• 1:06:12Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Keke Palmer?

  Coco, we've known you for years. Obviously, I always talk about, 'cause you were in this movie with Tyler James-Williams and also Trevor Jackson, two of my guys, and Let It Shine, which was a huge hit for Disney. That's when I first met you.

• 1:06:25Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Keke Palmer?

  But I wanna go back to even before then. And I really wanna talk about how people can really get to know you. I mean, obviously, you've had the Grammy-winning I See You, your music has been blowing up. What would be your advice to other young girls, or shit, guys, artists that are trying to find their voice? And stay in it, right? 'Cause I think there's a lot of patience in what you're saying. And what I know from my career as well is having patience and understanding that some things are part of the course.

• 1:06:49Speaker 07

  Yes, yes, I mean, half of it is, you know what? It was Sis that had told me this years and years and years and years ago, being a little delusional. And I was like, what?

• 1:06:58Keke Palmer?

  I love her.

• 1:06:58Speaker 07

  But girl, I get it. Because you actually have to push past your reality, past the fear in other people's mind, the projection of fear that they might want to put onto you.

• 1:07:07Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 1:07:07Speaker 07

  Past times and years and age, past logic sometimes, you know what I'm saying? And pushing past fear is like a little crazy. Because it's still scary to pursue this life. You know what I'm saying? And so I would say you gotta be a little delusional. You gotta, you gotta talk to yourself and act the way you see yourself in the future. You know what I'm saying? Maybe not everybody's gonna get it, but you gotta get it. You've gotta get it on the inside. And I would also say, put everything you can out into the world. Like, at this point, you can go viral off of a, off of doing this. You don't know what's gonna change your life, but nothing will happen if nothing happens. So put something out as much as you can.

• 1:07:46Keke Palmer?

  Another thing I want to speak about too is your parents. Because I know your mother sings.

• 1:07:49Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Keke Palmer?

  Or sang. And then your dad is in NFL. Did you ever feel a lot of pressure because of their success? Like, I gotta do something. Or did you just stand kind of as an example?

• 1:08:00Speaker 07

  I never felt pressured. Even when things were going left, one of the things that I can, I held on to was my mom saying, you can always come home. Like, you don't have to do this. You can always come home. Because I think a part of it was like, is this pride? Do I just not want to give up because I already did this for so long? Or is this my truth? And so knowing that it was okay and it wasn't failure to leave kept me sane in knowing that this was my truest choice. But no, they really, I think, encouraged me to pursue anything. Girl, I did every sport that there was. I was gymnastics, softball. I mean, I was dancing, cheering. Basketball was the one I really was feeling.

• 1:08:36Keke Palmer?

  My Coco Simone Biles Jones.

• 1:08:38Speaker 07

  Oh, my God. Why are you so flippant? What's wrong with you? I'm crying. But yeah, they just encouraged me to pursue it. And they were like, whatever you willing to work at, we willing to support. So let's go.

• 1:08:49Keke Palmer?

  I love that. I love that. Nothing like supportive parents, I'm telling you.

• 1:08:52Speaker 07

  Okay. Truly.

• 1:08:54Keke Palmer?

  Well, I'm sad. I was trying to keep you here longer, but I guess I've, you know, gotta come to an end somehow.

• 1:08:58Speaker 07

  Girl, you know you got seven things to do after this.

• 1:09:04Keke Palmer?

  I am so excited to chat with today's guest. Okay, you might know her voice from the Beyonce song "Cozy", or as one of the judges on RuPaul's Dragways. She published a memoir in 2015 entitled "A Light Through the Shade", an autobiography of a queen. And in 2021, she became the first black trans woman to star in her own reality show, The T.S. Madison Experience. T.S., honey, welcome to the show!

• 1:09:28Speaker 08

  Yes, Kiki, Kiki, do you love me? How we riding?

• 1:09:36Keke Palmer?

  Every time I see you, it's really too much, because like I told you, you cannot come to my show and outbeat me, honey. This face, this hair, these titties, everything is giving me life.

• 1:09:46Speaker 08

  Well, see, Kiki, you gotta understand that when you are a girl... See, there's a difference between being a woman and then being a girl. When you're a girl, you have to stay beat, darling. Because you know, you've got to. Because I'm into like, why be natural when you can be supernatural?

• 1:10:06Keke Palmer?

  Ooh, and that's on period.

• 1:10:08Speaker 08

  That's on period.

• 1:10:10Keke Palmer?

  Absolutely. You are probably one of the most viral people ever. I mean, you could do anything. Your shit is going viral every other day. Did you always want to be famous? Did you always see yourself being an advocate or an activist? Like, how did this come to you?

• 1:10:26Speaker 08

  Well, Kiki, I always knew I was gonna be a star. I always knew it.

• 1:10:29Keke Palmer?

  I know, that's right.

• 1:10:30Speaker 08

  Like, I didn't know when, I didn't know how, I knew it. I always knew. I remember me sitting on the floor, I tell this story all the time, of me, I was 14 years old, and I was sitting on the floor, and I heard a voice when RuPaul was on TV. "You better work, turn to the left."

• 1:10:45Keke Palmer?

  Work it, girl!

• 1:10:46Speaker 08

  Turn to the right, ah!

• 1:10:48Keke Palmer?

  Do your thing, ma.

• 1:10:50Speaker 08

  Showtime!

• 1:10:53Keke Palmer?

  RuPaul.

• 1:10:54Speaker 08

  So I'm sitting there and a voice spoke to me and said, that's gonna be your friend. And y'all are gonna work together.

• 1:11:01Keke Palmer?

  Ah.

• 1:11:02Speaker 08

  Here I am, from season 12, all the way up here to season 17. I'm a judge on RuPaul's Drag Race. I'm a part of the, the community. I'm a part of this. And, and when I met RuPaul, RuPaul was like, TS Madison, I love your spirit. I love you. I love for you, who you are. And I'm like, this, I knew that we were gonna be in close proximity with each other since I was, since I was 14 years old. People have to know that when, when they hear something or they feel, Kiki, you knew you were gonna be a star as a kid. You knew this.

• 1:11:36Keke Palmer?

  I did, actually.

• 1:11:38Speaker 08

  You knew?

• 1:11:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I actually did.

• 1:11:40Speaker 08

  You looked at that TV, you, you looked at the TV, you looked at whatever, and you said, they not doing nothing I can't do.

• 1:11:45Keke Palmer?

  I watched She and Tamara. I watched Sister Sister and I said, I wanna be in there. I wanna be in there. I feel like I got something to say. I felt like I was always walking in my own movie. I don't know what that, what that was, but I always just felt that was for me.

• 1:11:57Speaker 08

  And I knew that, that me, I was gonna, now I didn't know that I, come on now, come on, you may, I may need to, I may need to tag you in. I didn't know that I was gonna have to go through, you know, like a puzzle to get in there. But when I got in there and, and it happened, it just, I, I just made it work for me. I don't wanna go viral all the time. But it happens because I'm vocal, I'm, I'm raw, I'm unfiltered, I'm uncut. And you know, wait a minute, I, I am cut, but I'm raw.

• 1:12:35Speaker 08

  But.

• 1:12:35Keke Palmer?

  You give me too much fucking life.

• 1:12:37Speaker 08

  I just, I didn't, you know, I don't know.

• 1:12:41Keke Palmer?

  You just didn't know. I feel the same way that you feel because a lot of times people look at me and obviously we both, both of us has made it into a corporate space, a very commercial space. But a lot of times I wasn't what I, what I felt or what people thought I should be. You know, I mean, I'm a black girl, dark skin. You know, I got a, I got a, uh, accent to me and the gaggis. You know it's your girl. You know, I never necessarily thought that people saw me in some of the spaces that I'm in, but I was gonna be me regardless. And the funny thing, which I think is about when you're talking about it's good to see yourself or for representation to be there in all of its truth and authenticity. Because it lets people know that even if there are walls up against you, even if there is a way that society tells you things should work,

• 1:13:27Keke Palmer?

  you can break through. Because what God has for you, it's always going to be, it's always gonna be for you. It's so true, and so I love what you're saying because it's like, yeah, maybe you didn't see it. You felt it, you didn't know how it was gonna happen. But like, you showed up as you, and it was more than enough.

• 1:13:44Speaker 08

  And I'm, and in the words of Tisha Campbell, I'm still here.

• 1:13:48Keke Palmer?

  Here.

• 1:13:49Speaker 08

  Here.

• 1:13:50Keke Palmer?

  Here.

• 1:13:56Keke Palmer?

  Why does she eat that?

• 1:13:58Speaker 08

  Let me tell you something, I have been, I have honestly been blessed with being coming from where I'm from, with the background that I have. I have, um, Tisha Campbell's my friend. I've met Tashina Arnold. You know, you know, I love you, I've met you, you my friend.

• 1:14:14Keke Palmer?

  I love you too.

• 1:14:15Speaker 08

  Lee Daniels, Nicki Minaj, Beyonce.

• 1:14:20Keke Palmer?

  But TS, there's something about you. There's something about you, your energy, who you are, when someone's around you, even when I'm talking to you right now, that my heart feels so pulled open. Like, I just feel like I could say anything. What have, what has been your life like that has allowed you to be this kind of person that can extend such a safe space to others? Because I feel it. You know what I'm saying? Like, what is that?

• 1:14:46Speaker 08

  I think it's because, in a literal sense, I show up naked.

• 1:14:53Speaker 08

  And I want you to be the same. Hey, let's, I don't come clothed, I don't come hiding anything. I don't come with a veil or cloth. I show up naked. So this is like, oh bitch, you're naked. Let me take my clothes off too and get comfortable, girl. And I think that that's the way it is with everybody. Like, that's, that's the way. When I walk in the room, yes, I have on clothes, but I'm showing up to you naked. I've told you, hey, I've been this, I've done that, this has happened to me.

• 1:15:17Keke Palmer?

  But that's the thing right there, because your life has not been easy. I mean, you wrote your autobiography, A Light Through the Shade, in 2015. And, I mean, what, this, this is what I want to get to is, because I think a lot of times, people, we're all different. But a lot of times, when we, when we feel like our difference is the biggest difference in the room, we attach that to what we've gone through. Well, if this didn't happen to me, I wouldn't be this. If I wasn't such, such, then I wouldn't have these feelings. If I wouldn't, but the truth is, you are who you are, period. What was it for you, and that was big for me, like, I was a kid when I experienced this. I'll talk about it in my book, I Don't Belong to You. You know, I was essentially violated. And for a long time, I thought, how did that affect me? You know, is this why I'm this way? Is this why I'm that? Is this why I think this, blah, blah, blah? And then I got to the point where I said, I'm me, regardless.

• 1:16:03Keke Palmer?

  I cannot attribute anything that makes me feel different, or, or, I can't say that that's what's wrong with me, when actually, that's what made me who I am. Let me love me, let me accept me, because that's who I am. This is not a blame, this is not a scar. This is what has made me who I am, so let me love that. And I see that in you. How did you, what was that, that allowed you to see those things that someone could say, oh, well, that's trauma, and you need to change that, and you need to fix that? Where you said, no, no, no, I'm gonna love that and be who I've become.

• 1:16:34Speaker 08

  Well, I, because every, everything that happens to you, happens to you to shape and mold you, and to build the person that you are, and who you, who, because your life is already pre-planned on who you, who, exactly who you are. All the scars and stuff that you receive are, are, are reminders of the things that you went through, so that you don't go through them again. And also, so that you can tell, you can help somebody else not to go through those things. For me, right now, I'm so glad that you said that. It, it opened up a window in my thoughts, even in this exact moment, the way that I perceived love and, and relationships. I've always felt that I was, because I was a former sex worker,

• 1:17:18Speaker 08

  that now that I'm not in that life anymore, that I was being, I was gonna be punished. Because I slept with other people's husbands or boyfriends or this or the other. And then I just recently had to tell myself, Madison, the men that you've been involved with that were bad, were bad men regardless, or were awful men regardless. It had nothing to do with what you did because that was a path that you were given to change lives on the outside so that, you know, so that people can see your life changed. So don't blame that on this. It's the decision that you made with those men, you didn't, you didn't vet them properly. You didn't, this is a thing you didn't do.

• 1:17:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Speaker 08

  So don't think that you're being punished for the life lessons that you had to learn in life. Don't think that you're being punished for that. Like, accept it, that happened. You blossomed into something else and just move on. And so I am in, I'm, I'm, I'm learning now. I have to tell you this honestly, Kiki, in this moment, I'm learning now to reconnect to real emotions, real feelings, real love. Because when I was a sex worker, I turned all of that stuff off.

• 1:18:32Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 1:18:32Speaker 08

  Love, emotion, feeling, I had to turn it off. I had no connection, no human connection. It was, this is all being.

• 1:18:51Keke Palmer?

  Enjoy Baby This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This is Keke Palmer early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

• 1:19:16Keke Palmer?

  Baby This is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Senior producers are Tristan McNeil and Candace Menriquez-Rin. Our executive producers are Emily Feldbrake, Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louie.