Twice Married, To Each Other

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? They were married, divorced, and then married again. And with four kids between them, tensions run high. They fight about everything: the chores, the cats, who gets to tell who what to do. They come into the session with one story and Esther helps them write an alternate version. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Relationships are undergoing a massive cultural shift. We've never been more connected, and we've never felt more disconnected. We crave understanding and collective experience. We want to be seen but we're optimizing for isolation. Esther believes that the only way to improve our relationships is to remember the basics of being together. This is why she's inviting you to join her for an immersive experience: her international tour, Strangers, Friends, and Lovers. Tickets are selling fast. Get yours now at estherperel.com/tour. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.comThis is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This week, we have another request for your stories. This time, it's around the idea of ghosting. Esther is wondering if maybe we've just gotten a little too comfortable ghosting each other. And not just in dating. We ignore texts, we cancel plans, we let friendships fade. We sometimes just stop showing up. Are we being rude? Or do we expect too much from each other? And when do we owe someone something, like an explanation? And when is it okay to just walk away? If you have a question for Esther around ghosting, write to us. Send your question or your story to [email protected].

• 0:54Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 1:23Speaker 01

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• 2:33Speaker 04

  Honestly, I don't really know where it began.

• 2:40Speaker 04

  It's such a torrid love story, just the back and forth.

• 2:48Esther Perel?

  They've been married to each other, not once, but twice.

• 2:53Speaker 04

  We ended up married in 2008 and then divorced in 2010. And we ended up finding ourselves back together again, just eight months later. And we got remarried. And we've been really trying to nail down this relationship thing since then. And it's just been difficult.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  It's an emotional struggle. And I just wish it wasn't so hard. And always feeling like I'm walking on eggshells, walking on glass.

• 3:25Esther Perel?

  She came into the marriage with her two children. And they had two more together, four in total.

• 3:33Speaker 04

  So it's a lot of go-go-go. Lately, I've been trying desperately to get my husband to just do more in the relationship.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  I want arguments to come with joint solutions, right? Not only solved by the unilateral actions of one person.

• 3:53Speaker 04

  Most recently, I asked him to, you know, close his closet door because had it gotten in there, and he told me, "Nobody likes me."

• 4:04Speaker 04

  Anytime I suggest that he could take responsibility for something that he's done, it's turned around. And it's made about me or my inadequacies. I don't want to ask him to do anything because I'm afraid of what he'll say.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  You know, I can be reactionary and defensive. But I don't want my kids thinking that the way to deal with conflict is my wife ignoring me for two-plus weeks on a time because she got angry at me and couldn't handle it. And I don't know how to make it better.

• 4:39Speaker 04

  I'm just terrified. And I can't, I can't really shake that feeling. It seems so silly because it's just words, right? Like, it's just words that you say. They hurt. And I want to be able to communicate to him in a way that doesn't pique his fears either.

• 5:00Esther Perel?

  They've asked for a session because they have not stopped fighting. They fight over chores. They fight over domestic wars. Who can tell who what to do? And that's what they think they're coming for.

• 5:20Esther Perel?

  Tell me a little bit. If your relationship told its story, what story would it tell me? Where does it start?

• 5:32Speaker 04

  Well, we were, I was 22. It was 2006.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:38Speaker 04

  We met on MySpace, actually. It was, I guess, the millennials' tender.

• 5:47Speaker 04

  I had just separated and was in the middle of a divorce with my ex, who is the father of my first two children, my older two. And he reached out to me as his pseudonym,

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  Jack Rockstar. Jack Rockstar contacted me.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yes, I did. I was using it to meet girls because I had enlisted. And I was looking for some fun before I left. Nothing serious, so I was...

• 6:16Esther Perel?

  Before you left?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Before I left to join the military. Nothing serious, nothing keeping me down. Just a couple of flings and have fun and move on.

• 6:26Esther Perel?

  Okay, so two people meet online with the stated purpose of just having light fun.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:34Esther Perel?

  Yes, and some good recreational sex.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:38Esther Perel?

  And then?

• 6:40Speaker 04

  I don't know what happened. We went out on our first date. I guess I somehow made an impression. I...

• 6:49Speaker 01

  She was intriguing, right?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  I came from a very, I'd say, a very cloistered, very Klan-ish kind of family.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Oldest of three boys and sort of the black sheep of my family. I'm the one who left. I'm the one who went away, carved my own path.

• 7:13Esther Perel?

  What, can I just ask you something? What was it that made you want to leave?

• 7:21Esther Perel?

  The Klan?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  I wanted to be my own person, right? I didn't really feel like I could be my own person in my Klan because it's very patriarchal. And so my dad is the head of the Klan, right?

• 7:38Esther Perel?

  And your dad has the authority?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  And my dad is the authority.

• 7:40Esther Perel?

  And he makes other people do according to his will?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:44Esther Perel?

  And that's where you knew you honed your chops.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  I would say that I would model after that, yeah. And I just didn't, I wanted to do my own thing. I wanted to live my own life. Even that decision was co-opted by my parents because, you know, my dad gave me a call and he was like, "Man, I'm really, a couple of years later, I'm really impressed that you went off and did your own thing." You know, when I was young, I went off and I did my own thing. You're just like me.

• 8:13Esther Perel?

  And how does that land on you?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  It's like being choked, right? And...

• 8:19Esther Perel?

  And it strangles me. And when it strangles me, I want to...

• 8:27Speaker 01

  I just, I want to get out.

• 8:31Esther Perel?

  I can't get from under his clutches.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, it's...

• 8:42Speaker 01

  So it's funny because one of the first things that we both recognized was how much my family did not approve of her at all.

• 9:02Esther Perel?

  When someone is talking about how they needed to run away from their family because they were choking,

• 9:11Esther Perel?

  because it felt so suffocating or oppressive.

• 9:16Esther Perel?

  And they could proceed with a sentence that starts with "it's funny." What follows is really funny.

• 9:25Esther Perel?

  What follows is an illustration

• 9:30Esther Perel?

  of his rebelliousness. Here I was, falling for a woman that was nothing my family would approve. Now I could begin to think that I'm living my own life.

• 9:47Esther Perel?

  And the issue was race, age, culture, religion.

• 9:53Speaker 06

  The wrong side of the tracks.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  It was the wrong side of the tracks, was what my dad said.

• 9:56Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 9:57Speaker 06

  I think it was always about the class. Like, his dad ran his own company, things like that. And my mom was, she was a drug addict and an alcoholic. And, you know, we grew up with just my mom and my two brothers. And we grew up in poverty. If it wasn't for my mom's social security and disability and her widowers' benefits and then death benefits from my dad passing, we wouldn't have had any income. She couldn't hold a job. So it was homeless shelters sometimes. It was moving from place to place because we were evicted. So we were moving like every year. We were in a different place, different schools. His father did not approve.

• 10:42Speaker 06

  He never really approved of that. Even now, I feel like they've just convinced themselves that I'm not the same person that he met, that I'm someone else.

• 10:52Esther Perel?

  He has civilized you.

• 10:53Speaker 06

  He has civilized me, yes.

• 10:57Esther Perel?

  At this moment, I'm going back and forth. I'm highlighting the hidden commonality and the specificity of each. So back to his father now.

• 11:11Esther Perel?

  You know, I listen to you and I'm really touched, you know. It's like I see you organized by your defiance. Your defiance drives you. Nobody will tell me what to do.

• 11:28Esther Perel?

  Started with your father, who I'm imagining, in order to get his will across, was ready to use all kinds of means.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Emotional manipulation came from my mom.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  My mom of the two is the more emotionally manipulative. My father just knows how, I think, to... I think they make a very good pair. I think they work very well together. I think that is a good way of putting it, I suppose.

• 12:05Esther Perel?

  How did he get his will across to his three sons? How did he establish his authority?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  I mean, a lot of lectures. There was, and it's odd.

• 12:17Esther Perel?

  And they start with "son"?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  What are you gonna do with your life, right? Where are you going? You're not thinking things through. That's not the way that I raised you. You have a responsibility, you have a duty, you're the oldest. And therefore, you have to set the example for your brothers. You have to be that paragon of what I want you to be, right? And so it was a lot of sitting around.

• 12:42Esther Perel?

  So while he's talking to you

• 12:46Esther Perel?

  and you're feeling that pressure on your chest and on your throat because he's ramping it down your throat.

• 12:56Esther Perel?

  He's not just using words. He's not just lecturing. He's doing some, there are more things that you experience in that moment.

• 13:07Esther Perel?

  And somebody says, "What are you doing with your life?"

• 13:15Esther Perel?

  "You are embarrassing us."

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yes, that's a big piece. "You're embarrassing us," right?

• 13:21Esther Perel?

  Right. "You're not living up to your, to my expectation. You're not making me proud."

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:28Esther Perel?

  "I feel content for you."

• 13:35Esther Perel?

  "And I humiliate you."

• 13:40Esther Perel?

  "And I instill doubt in you that you'll ever do anything."

• 13:48Esther Perel?

  "And part of you says, 'I'll show you.'"

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 13:52Esther Perel?

  "And part of you wonders, 'Will I succeed at it?'" But you can't even allow yourself to have that doubt because the drive of the defiance burns you.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate.

• 14:12Esther Perel?

  As he repeats the words of his father with his hand on his chest and his throat, it's as if his body is remembering, re-experiencing in that very moment the choking sensation, the belittlement, the humiliation that he used to feel. And so when I add a few of those sentences, he just says, "Yes, that too, that too." And his lips are quivering. And the tears appear in his eyes. They don't stream yet because behind the rage, there often are tears.

• 14:53Esther Perel?

  Have you ever thought of how similar the two of you are?

• 15:01Speaker 06

  I have.

• 15:06Esther Perel?

  Both of you needed to leave

• 15:12Esther Perel?

  in order to have a chance

• 15:16Esther Perel?

  at creating your own story, your own life. So you leave your drug-addicted mother. You leave the chaos. You leave probably children who needed to attend to everything. Are you the youngest or the oldest? You're the oldest too, you must be the oldest.

• 15:34Speaker 06

  I am.

• 15:34Esther Perel?

  You are the oldest, right. So both of you are the oldest. And in some version, you raised your younger siblings because they looked at you. And you probably raised them more concretely. If she wasn't getting up, you had to get up.

• 15:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:52Esther Perel?

  Right?

• 15:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:55Esther Perel?

  And the first thing that jumps at me is that the two of you had to run away or leave or... But leave not just in the physical way. Leave so that you could begin to create your own story. And then he puts you down.

• 16:13Esther Perel?

  "When you fail, it's your fault. When you succeed, it's because of him. You own nothing."

• 16:21Esther Perel?

  And somehow, I think that that's part of why the two of you fight.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:27Esther Perel?

  It's all right there. When you fight with her, you fight with that defiant drive with which you fought him. And you confuse the people. But you have so honed your own protective mechanism.

• 16:45Esther Perel?

  And here you meet her. And when you say, "They don't like her," and so that reinforces your defiance even more. But when you say, "I want you," and she actually welcomes it, that is like irresistible. Irresistible, psychologically irresistible. I'm not talking just sexually. But if she wants you sexually, that too, then is kind of the antidote to the shame.

• 17:16Esther Perel?

  Because that will establish that masculinity which he was like siphoning out of you.

• 17:25Esther Perel?

  And then, I'm imagining that she was very encouraging for the things that you wanted to do.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean,

• 17:36Speaker 01

  I think for the first time in my life, I was able to talk things that I was interested in and that I wanted to do.

• 17:44Esther Perel?

  That's right. So when she encourages you in the things you want to pursue, you can welcome it because she's able to tell you, "Go do this," and you know that it's for you and not for her. But when she asks you, "Come help me with home,"

• 18:04Esther Perel?

  you can't hear that. And all you hear is that it's for her. And then the button is immediately pushed and off you go. "Nobody's gonna tell me what to do."

• 18:17Speaker 06

  That's what I was thinking of when I asked him to pick up his shoes.

• 18:25Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 18:27Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 18:29Speaker 06

  I.

• 18:32Speaker 06

  That's a lot on him. I don't, I, I don't know. I, I don't know.

• 18:37Esther Perel?

  It's a thought and we're gonna explore it together. It's not like I, I, I know, but then I, I see the way that your whole body changes if she says, move your shoes. Or whatever. I mean, I'm just picking up the one that she just mentioned, you know? And then both of you, then you will tell me what you do, what happens.

• 18:58Speaker 06

  Well, I was just thinking that that's a really fascinating perspective because there are times where I am all for it. I'm saying, you know, go, go do what you need to do to excel in your field, to excel in your, your passion, what you're, you're interested in and your profession. And he doesn't receive it. Because it's not that easy. It feels like you struggle to really hear that you have that freedom.

• 19:25Esther Perel?

  Just the fact that she says, go do your thing. What's, how does that land on you?

• 19:32Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 19:34Speaker 06

  Uh, no.

• 19:37Speaker 06

  No.

• 19:38Esther Perel?

  No, what?

• 19:39Speaker 06

  No, don't go do your thing.

• 19:41Esther Perel?

  Really?

• 19:42Speaker 06

  Yeah. That's what I'm met with. So he says, I really wanna do this. This would be, he tells me.

• 19:47Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I get it. I get it.

• 19:53Esther Perel?

  As the conversation unfolds, they discuss a different situation. In this one, he wants to make a change professionally and she's all for it. She's right behind him and she supports him. And he's at a loss. He knows better how to react to someone who says no than how to react to someone who says yes.

• 20:20Esther Perel?

  When somebody says no, the defiance fills him up with a false sense of confidence. But when someone says yes, it makes room for his insecurities, his uncertainties, his doubts, his questions to actually come out. And that brings a whole other wrinkle to their relationship.

• 20:46Speaker 06

  I want him to know that I hear him as well and that I see him and that whenever I say those things where I say, I want you to go do the thing or have the thing that you want, it's not glib, but that I had pure confidence in the both of us to navigate that together, if that's what he wanted to do, whatever it is. That terrifies me. That terrifies me. Oh my God. Confidence is tiring, right? I'm constantly plagued by self doubt. Oh my God. So when you say, I have the supreme confidence, wow, like, uh, what, what if I'm wrong? And I mean, like, don't get me wrong. I know that you, you are very, very capable

• 21:29Speaker 06

  of telling me that I'm wrong. Right? But I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong. But what if I am? What if I'm making the wrong decision for us? Then we can figure that out too.

• 21:39Speaker 06

  We've navigated so much.

• 21:42Esther Perel?

  You don't need to convince him right now because he's actually honest in a way that he's not often.

• 21:55Esther Perel?

  Because that self doubt is what crept under his skin all the while he was being defiant. And defiance is a certain type of confidence, but it's not really confidence. Because confidence, as my very dear friend Terry Reel has taught me, is the ability to see yourself as a flawed individual and then still hold yourself in high regard. I hear you. When she says, go for it, you say, I'm scared because when your dad would say, you can't do this, you had to say, yes, I can. And you had to stifle all the fears.

• 22:40Esther Perel?

  When she says, go for it, it actually allows the full person to respond, the one that wants and the one that's afraid.

• 22:51Esther Perel?

  When you say, go for it, and he starts to reason or to basically express his reservations, his concerns, his doubts, et cetera, it's actually a very good thing.

• 23:03Esther Perel?

  Because.

• 23:04Speaker 06

  I'm learning that.

• 23:05Esther Perel?

  He could never express any of these things since he had to be ultimately sure because that's the only way he could stand up to his dad.

• 23:12Speaker 06

  Right.

• 23:17Esther Perel?

  His defiance has given him a false sense of confidence and his self doubt is his hidden truth.

• 23:30Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 23:44Esther Perel?

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• 24:57Esther Perel?

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• 26:05Esther Perel?

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• 27:23Esther Perel?

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• 27:43Esther Perel?

  Earlier on, he mentioned that while his relationship with his dad was very challenging,

• 27:51Esther Perel?

  the emotional manipulation came from his mom.

• 27:54Speaker 06

  You know, it's interesting, my mom of the two is the more emotionally manipulative.

• 27:59Esther Perel?

  So I think it's time to inquire about his relationship with her as well.

• 28:04Speaker 06

  Okay, um, my mom falls in line with my dad and they're very much on the same page. He's really good at guilting.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Disapproving, like that all came from her. The emotional guilt came from her.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  A lot of crying.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Like, I was letting my, I was hurting my mom. I wasn't hurting my dad. I was letting my dad down, but I was hurting my mom.

• 28:37Speaker 06

  I would always ask him like what it was like growing up, like, you know, you know, what is she like? And he was like, I don't, I don't know. I just remember her crying a lot in my teenage years. From what I remember him telling me is dad was the one that was saying, look, you, you made your mother cry, right? Like, why are you making your mother cry like this?

• 28:56Esther Perel?

  So you tell me.

• 29:01Esther Perel?

  You both have a lot of insights about

• 29:07Esther Perel?

  the original story.

• 29:11Esther Perel?

  And so this for both of you lets you know very much what are your triggers.

• 29:21Esther Perel?

  The fact that you disagree on all kinds of things is utterly irrelevant.

• 29:28Esther Perel?

  If you experience it as I'm a disappointment, I'm inadequate, I'm being told what to do, I'm being told I'm not good enough, I'm being scrutinized, I'm being monitored. That's what you're going to be fighting about.

• 29:44Esther Perel?

  And if he doesn't respond and he doesn't collaborate with you and you feel like you're talking to the wind, then the trigger is going to be, I'm always alone, I've always been alone, nobody's there for me, it's all on me, how am I going to do this? I can't handle this anymore.

• 30:03Speaker 06

  I don't know how to test it.

• 30:08Speaker 06

  That's really spot on.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Okay. So.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  So what do we do?

• 30:25Esther Perel?

  The first and foremost thing you're gonna do is not to talk about what you think is the issue.

• 30:34Esther Perel?

  As in, the tasks or the chores or the, you know.

• 30:41Esther Perel?

  Do yourselves a favor and really repeat what you just heard and actually repeat it in your own words first before we go into what do we do? Because this is what you're triggered by and this is what you're fighting. And you're fighting it with the same passion that you were at home.

• 31:07Esther Perel?

  So put in your words, what's the voice that fights?

• 31:12Speaker 01

  The, the voice, the voice that fights, oh, in, in my own head, you know, what I'm fighting against is shame, inadequacy,

• 31:24Speaker 01

  being told what I have to do and, and not having my own say, that it's a lack of autonomy. It's taking away, right? It's, it's taking a part of me away and demanding that I, I do something else.

• 31:39Esther Perel?

  If, if I could hear what goes in the ears, what would I hear?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  How dare you? How dare you tell me what to do? Like, you don't, that's not your place.

• 31:48Esther Perel?

  And what do you hear her say? Give me a line.

• 31:52Speaker 06

  Most recently, I, he was blaming our five-year-old for leaving the bedroom door open and the cat got in and used his closet as a litter box. And I said, well, but you could keep your closet door closed and that might be helpful.

• 32:05Esther Perel?

  Okay, that's enough.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  You don't get, no, that doesn't make any sense.

• 32:09Esther Perel?

  No, what did, I want to hear what's.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  He, that's, uh.

• 32:15Esther Perel?

  Why are you putting this on me?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, why are you putting this on me? This has nothing to do with me. Like, like, that's not helpful. It's not helpful. And now, now, now I'm angry about it because you're trying to blame me for something that, like, why are you getting in my face about it? That's what I'm hearing.

• 32:32Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Right?

• 32:34Esther Perel?

  Right. You know, you, you think you're talking about a litter box and a cat. Yes, there's no cat in his story.

• 32:41Speaker 06

  There's no cat.

• 32:42Esther Perel?

  There's no cat in his story.

• 32:46Esther Perel?

  But of course, he doesn't say that in the moment. In the moment, he says something about the cat.

• 32:51Speaker 06

  Oh, that was when he said, nobody likes you.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Nobody likes you.

• 32:54Esther Perel?

  Ah, okay.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Came out wrong, it came out.

• 32:57Esther Perel?

  He went straight.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  I swear.

• 32:58Speaker 06

  He went straight through it.

• 32:59Esther Perel?

  So he went into the part of him that felt belittled and ashamed and his protection mode is then to say, you're not lovable. Yeah. And what do you do when he says that? You have a comeback?

• 33:13Speaker 06

  No, I just didn't. I told him that was very mean and hurtful and then I didn't talk to him for two weeks.

• 33:18Esther Perel?

  Oh, that's a comeback.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, it was a really shitty thing of me to say. And I'm really sorry.

• 33:26Speaker 06

  You've told me a few times.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I know.

• 33:29Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  I hold you in way higher regard than that. And I love you. So it's completely untrue and bullshit. And I, I was angry and I'm sorry.

• 33:38Speaker 06

  I forgive you.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Okay, thank you.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  And I, I know, I know a lot of the times, like, it sounds like we're just, we're arguing about mundane things, but those mundane things add up for both of us. And if it's a trigger, when we're constantly triggering each other, that's, that's every day, another thing and another thing. And it's, it's death by a thousand cuts.

• 34:01Esther Perel?

  No, it's every day the same thing.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Every day the same thing, right? In a, but it may be in a different trapping, but it's the same thing.

• 34:07Esther Perel?

  That's why you're not going to stay on the things that you argue about, but you're going to help each other.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:14Esther Perel?

  By recognizing what was just, just was a little step on a wound.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 34:28Esther Perel?

  They are convinced that they fight about a lot of different things. But what becomes very clear is that in fact, they mostly fight about the same thing over and over again. He goes to his childhood and experiences again the sense of inadequacy and incompetence and disappointment. And she experiences the aloneness and the burdens that were put upon her as a child. Most of their arguments are about that. It's not about the cat.

• 35:09Esther Perel?

  It's about their vulnerabilities and their deep-seated wounds and fears. And this translation from the supposed issues to the feelings and the emotions that live inside of us is a major transition for many couples. It becomes the place from which empathy, compassion and understanding for themselves and for each other can rise.

• 35:47Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 35:59Speaker 03

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• 36:38Speaker 02

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• 37:15Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Midi Health. Sometimes we chase treatments for symptoms that seem unrelated. Headaches, fatigue, insomnia. But when you're going through perimenopause and menopause, they're often part of the same hormonal story. And you don't have to quietly push through. Midi can help. Midi helps women connect to clinicians who can actually connect the dots to help make sense of what you're going through. That way, you can clear out the separate what's going on with me Google searches and get real expert advice in one place. Built by women who've been there themselves, Midi is virtual care exclusively for women's hormonal health and it's covered by most insurance plans. You don't have to let your symptoms become the new normal.

• 37:59Esther Perel?

  Midi can help you feel seen, be heard, and finally get a treatment that actually helps. Your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmidi.com right now to book your first visit today. That's join M-I-D-I dot com to book your first visit. Joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 38:27Esther Perel?

  So when the two of you fight, your bodies may be in this room, but your memories, your nervous systems are hijacked.

• 38:41Esther Perel?

  You fight about our core vulnerabilities.

• 38:46Esther Perel?

  You know,

• 38:48Esther Perel?

  when you argue.

• 38:54Esther Perel?

  Do one now. Pick one, one of your arguments and.

• 39:01Esther Perel?

  Uh, the chore chart.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Okay, we're role playing one of our arguments now.

• 39:07Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, yes. I just wanna.

• 39:11Esther Perel?

  It's hard to get in, but you will see once you, once the triggers go, she just, you, one of you just. Yes, it's a fantastic flicker. So.

• 39:24Speaker 06

  In doing the chore chart.

• 39:27Speaker 06

  We wanted to have the teenagers.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  I know what we wanted to do.

• 39:32Speaker 06

  Okay, so we wanted to create a chore chart, so there was routine and structure and discipline.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:38Speaker 06

  So the teens could earn their allowance and, and learn some discipline on their own.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Right, and then you went and get, you went and did it by yourself.

• 39:50Speaker 06

  Well, the conversation was, I had created the chore chart and there was.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:57Speaker 06

  A cycle and everyone had their two chores every night.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 40:02Speaker 06

  And that you were not fulfilling yours routinely.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  The, the challenge for me here, the problem that I have is that you, you made the chore chart up, you, you by yourself. You put it behind this, I'm not gonna say a paywall, but you're the only one who could edit it. You were the one who decided the criteria that went into it. I didn't have any input into the process whatsoever. And so I, I, I tried. And I'm very bad at it and I got angry about it and then I just stopped. But I didn't stop on purpose, I just, I'm exhausted by the end of the day. And then, and then, then you took me off the chore chart without talking to me about it first. You just went and did it.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  And then when I came to you and said, hey, maybe a compromise, maybe I can, I can get some buy in back with the kids and build some trust with them. Then you went and accused me of trying to like circumvent the entire thing because I just couldn't hold to, to doing chores. Every day. When I, I came with a compromise for you. So I, I didn't feel, I don't feel like I've got any input at all, none. You just made it all up and you're running the show by yourself because that's what you wanna do.

• 41:20Speaker 06

  Okay, so that was a lot.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 06

  Um, because I, I'd sent you the chart, you actually had the editable version beforehand. Before I published it to Google Docs and shared it with the teens. You had it.

• 41:34Esther Perel?

  Okay. You're about to go into the item and the chart. And why you did what you did.

• 41:45Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 41:47Esther Perel?

  You could do that.

• 41:50Esther Perel?

  But I can spare you that. And let you know upfront, it's predictably going to land in the bad place.

• 41:58Speaker 06

  I can see that.

• 42:01Esther Perel?

  So, everything he just said. Was about how he hated not being able to fulfill the expectation. And he didn't particularly like the fact that the expectations were mandated to him without being involved. And because he felt I'm at the twirl of your finger and you're going to do with me whatever you want. He already told you, this is his trigger.

• 42:31Esther Perel?

  I'm made to feel dumb, inadequate, and now I'm embarrassed in front of my kids.

• 42:40Esther Perel?

  So, there are two levels, there's a lot of levels, but the first one is. There is something that if people argue while they actually touch each other. The arguments completely change.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:58Esther Perel?

  And since touch is extremely potent and in a good way for both of you, you have got to use it.

• 43:09Esther Perel?

  That same speech you just did.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 43:12Esther Perel?

  Or the one you're about to do. When you actually put your hand on the knee or the shoulder or the lap. Something different will happen.

• 43:28Speaker 06

  I like this plan.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  I do not. But I understand, like, okay. Okay.

• 43:37Esther Perel?

  You go.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  I, I feel like I said my piece and we should, should we allow you to?

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:52Speaker 06

  Okay, so what I'm hearing you say.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 43:57Speaker 06

  Is that you don't want to feel embarrassed.

• 44:03Speaker 06

  Or inadequate.

• 44:07Speaker 06

  To the teens.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  I think it's more than that, right, like. I wanna, I, I want us to make these decisions of, not even make them together, but figure out a way to make them together.

• 44:23Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:25Esther Perel?

  Did you notice a difference? In your body, do you notice a difference?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't feel like.

• 44:33Esther Perel?

  Right, right.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Right, like tight.

• 44:35Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah, that's it.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  I'm still sort of talking about what I wanna talk about.

• 44:41Esther Perel?

  Of course, of course, the, the, the argument stays an argument. You're allowed to argue and you're allowed to disagree and you're allowed to fight. And you're allowed to be angry. Change comes with anger, but. What you both do is different. Yeah. You see, she makes decisions alone.

• 45:03Esther Perel?

  Because that's what she learned.

• 45:07Esther Perel?

  Not because she's intentionally trying to put you on the side. But when there's a big issue, the first person she turns to is herself.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:19Esther Perel?

  And you, who admire. How well she can make all of these decisions alone.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 45:27Esther Perel?

  As long as it doesn't make you feel excluded and minim, and diminished by it.

• 45:34Esther Perel?

  Your experience is no longer, oh, I admire this woman who can handle all these complicated things. It suddenly becomes, this woman is putting me down, she doesn't think I'm competent.

• 45:45Esther Perel?

  Her self reliance is my incompetence.

• 45:51Speaker 06

  That's interesting.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  And to wanna go on the record, it's saying that I admire your self reliance and autonomy.

• 46:05Esther Perel?

  Yes, but on occasion, it makes me feel like an idiot.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yes, it does, of course.

• 46:09Esther Perel?

  And at those moments, I'm hurt.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  But it doesn't have anything to do with you at the same time. It doesn't have anything to do with you.

• 46:17Speaker 06

  But you're hurt.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  But I'm hurt. But it hurts. It hurts because who? Wouldn't want to be able to.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Be on the same team as someone like you.

• 46:36Esther Perel?

  Because I admire you. I wanna be on the team with you.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm lucky. And I know that. And I want you to know that. And I, I. Want you to, I, I don't just be like, I want you to know that, that I'm lucky, but I, I want you to know that, you know what I mean, like?

• 47:03Speaker 06

  Feel it.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  I don't. I don't know, I just, I want you to feel lucky that you're on mine.

• 47:19Speaker 06

  Very lucky.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  I, part of being on the same team isn't just, hey, we're gonna do awesome things together, but to me, it's also. Hey, can you be understanding when I don't know what's going on or I need help? Or I don't get it the first time. That's part of it, I think.

• 47:49Esther Perel?

  And when you think he is thin skinned.

• 47:55Esther Perel?

  Or you need to work on eggshells because you can't tell him anything, you have to remember everything he just said.

• 48:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, I do.

• 48:07Esther Perel?

  There's another piece of research I find very interesting. And it may be good for you too, because indeed, you know, your bodies. Have another language that is reserved for good times, that your words don't always match. And that is, it's, lay down on the floor, both of you.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Like, lay down on the.

• 48:26Esther Perel?

  Just lay down, yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Okay. Okay.

• 48:34Esther Perel?

  Lay down and lay down next to her.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 48:38Esther Perel?

  Now, try to have a fight now.

• 48:43Speaker 06

  I, I don't think I can.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  This is weird.

• 48:45Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:49Esther Perel?

  See if you can.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  The chore chart.

• 49:00Speaker 06

  What about it?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Can we work on it? Maybe?

• 49:05Esther Perel?

  No, I said a fight.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  We're, I'm trying.

• 49:08Esther Perel?

  You see, it's very hard.

• 49:11Speaker 06

  It's completely disarming.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  It's just not.

• 49:14Esther Perel?

  And the bodies won't let you. A fighting body cannot lie flat.

• 49:21Esther Perel?

  A body that is in an argument.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  You have to pace and walk and.

• 49:24Esther Perel?

  Cannot be lying flat. So when you go and you escalate, lay down.

• 49:33Esther Perel?

  And if you can lay down, even while your kids are in the room, because you'll start to laugh, and you'll tell them that shrink we met, she gave us this bizarre piece of research, you know?

• 49:47Esther Perel?

  It will calm everybody. It will diffuse it. You cannot continue the screaming match when you're lying.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  I mean, that's, that's fair.

• 49:58Esther Perel?

  And most of the time, you really need to know, your screaming match will not lead you to anything.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  And I feel like I'm gonna be lying down.

• 50:06Esther Perel?

  You just say, let's fight lying down. Let's continue our fight lying down. See what happens.

• 50:14Speaker 06

  I think even saying it is,

• 50:18Speaker 06

  like, in a way, it, it disarms the conversation. Even just thinking about the concept of laying down. I can't imagine that would.

• 50:29Speaker 06

  It wouldn't make things worse, that's for sure.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know. I'm skeptical.

• 50:38Speaker 06

  I mean, what would you do if we were in a fight and I just laid down?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I'm not thinking about if we're in a fight and you lay down, because I'm just gonna lay down with you. I'm thinking about what happens when I lay down and you just walk away.

• 50:51Speaker 06

  Well, I think that's a commitment that I have to make.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:56Speaker 06

  And that's on me. That's not on you.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fair.

• 51:07Esther Perel?

  Say more about this. That you would be laying down and that she.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  I, I think what I meant is like, her, her natural reaction and when we get into fights and when we start escalating. I mean, she mentioned she didn't talk to me for two weeks. This is not like an uncommon occurrence, right? When we argue, there is the, the fight, and then there is no more fighting. It's all.

• 51:30Speaker 06

  Silence.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Silence.

• 51:32Esther Perel?

  And how do you come back?

• 51:37Speaker 06

  I usually tell him that I'm ready to talk. And.

• 51:44Esther Perel?

  And in your head, the voice that, that controls the stonewalling, says what?

• 51:56Speaker 06

  It depends. It depends on the, the magnitude of the fight. Sometimes, it's,

• 52:06Speaker 06

  should you leave before he does?

• 52:11Speaker 06

  Or, you know, at some point, at some point, he's, he's going to get tired of this. At some point, it's, it's gonna hit a threshold.

• 52:24Speaker 06

  And it's always a little self-deprecating. It's rooted in worthiness, worthlessness. So, you know, you weren't deserving to begin with. Why is he still here? You know, it's gonna hit a point. It's always gonna hit a point.

• 52:45Speaker 06

  That's, that's constantly in the back of my head. And that has nothing to do with him.

• 52:53Esther Perel?

  I just had a thought.

• 52:55Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 52:58Esther Perel?

  That is exactly in the same register as the touch.

• 53:04Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 53:05Esther Perel?

  See, you stonewalled him. You are thinking, I don't know how to come out of this. This is where I've always gone to protect myself. I'm in my bunker, but he's not gonna last because he's gonna leave. So now I'm trapped between staying in my bunker because it's safer and then being afraid that if I stay in my bunker, he's gonna go. Meanwhile, he thinks he's being punished and he's being excluded. And so each one of you goes to those places. And it would be wonderful if when she stonewalls you and she gives you the silent treatment, you got a costume.

• 53:41Esther Perel?

  And basically came in exactly with that laughter that you have here. Whoever you like to be.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:48Esther Perel?

  Do you have any fantasies you can play out at that moment? You know, do you have any of these characters that he would love to be surprised by? But you, you see, the more you are afraid and the more she thinks he's not gonna be able to take this anymore. And the more she thinks he's gonna leave me and the longer her silence. It's a crazy thing.

• 54:11Esther Perel?

  Spot on. It's exactly right.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 54:14Esther Perel?

  She's in a no-win situation.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  And to that point, like, my default way of dealing with it is being like, okay.

• 54:22Esther Perel?

  That's right.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  See you later.

• 54:23Esther Perel?

  That's right. So now it's two people pretending that they can do without the other and they don't need the other. Fuck you.

• 54:30Esther Perel?

  You, if you can, because she's too trapped to do anything at first. She has no flexibility.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:38Esther Perel?

  But if you can remember anything from here and just remember this is the time to go freaking get your costume.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 54:47Esther Perel?

  Your mask. It's very good a mask.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  So like, this, it's just you saying that the act of showing my own vulnerability? Like just being vulnerable and.

• 54:58Esther Perel?

  The act of not being scared about it.

• 55:02Esther Perel?

  Like, I'm not at the mercy of this and how many days am I gonna sit in the jail?

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:07Esther Perel?

  You have a key to the jail. Get out. She's trapped.

• 55:14Esther Perel?

  You have to know that she would love to be released. But that coping style that she perfected over years is the leader at that moment.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:29Esther Perel?

  What kind of character do you like?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Oh, it doesn't matter. It's gonna be crazy. I'm getting a banana costume. I'm doing all kinds of stuff.

• 55:40Esther Perel?

  Great. Don't tell her anything upfront.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Of course not. So you know it's not gonna be a banana costume.

• 55:46Esther Perel?

  But you got it.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  I got it.

• 55:48Esther Perel?

  It's gotta be the most disruptive, discontinuous, nothing to do with nothing.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm good at being disruptive.

• 55:54Esther Perel?

  Okay. Have fun, is what I'm saying to you.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:57Esther Perel?

  Have fun.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:59Esther Perel?

  So,

• 56:02Esther Perel?

  costume, lying flat, touching.

• 56:10Esther Perel?

  As you fight. Of her. To, to give you a sense of being able to control the way you fight, not what you fight about.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:23Esther Perel?

  So you let me know? Yeah.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 56:26Esther Perel?

  Yeah, I would love for you to write to me within two weeks.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Two weeks. Okay.

• 56:31Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm gonna be doing some shopping for some sexy costumes.

• 56:39Speaker 06

  I just hope he doesn't find my box of lingerie.

• 56:50Esther Perel?

  The letters they sent

• 56:54Esther Perel?

  were very encouraging.

• 56:57Esther Perel?

  And one of the things she writes is that something changed about the way I thought about our differences. Having some knowledge about the various psychological constructs that impacted our reactions were never framed in such a way that resonated deeply with me. But this time, it has softened me in a sudden and unexpected way. Seeing the true vulnerability in my husband changed how I hear his reactions and experienced the more difficult part of his personality. It gives me a new perspective to take into my responses and reactions to him as well.

• 57:42Esther Perel?

  I suppose it was the kick in the teeth that I desperately needed, along with some much-needed insight and perspective. His letter was also very important for me to read because he had been very reluctant to join his wife for the session. He was a self-proclaimed skeptic. And his opening sentence of the letter said just as such, as always, even coming out of the session, I remain a skeptic.

• 58:16Esther Perel?

  But one thing we definitely took away was having actual conversations with each other. There have been a couple of times when it looked like things could flare up, but they immediately died out and withered. In one of those instances, I initiated the touching that was recommended in the session and it killed an argument immediately.

• 58:39Esther Perel?

  I will say that as a result, our five-year-old, who is very emotionally attuned to us, has become way more manageable and agreeable recently.

• 58:51Esther Perel?

  On my end, I'm still struggling with the notion that I have to find novel ways to help my wife come out of dark places when we hit rough patches.

• 59:02Esther Perel?

  And to be vulnerable when I feel vulnerable.

• 59:08Esther Perel?

  That is still all a work in progress.

• 59:15Esther Perel?

  I was touched by what I read because it was a lot of takeaways for a one-time, three-hour session.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

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• 1:00:52Speaker 00

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