I'll Still Be Your Financial Partner, But I'm Done Being Your Wife

After a nearly forty-year relationship, they've decided to split. But given the many laws in America that favor married couples, they've decided to try an unconventional arrangement: living 300 miles apart but remaining legally married. They come to Esther wondering how, after decades of emotional enmeshment, they can disentangle their romantic connection while continuing to function like business partners. Esther helps them move into their next phase of life by coaching them past long-held relational patterns so that they can instead offer each other gratitude, regret, and distance. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Relationships are undergoing a massive cultural shift. We've never been more connected, and we've never felt more disconnected. We crave understanding and collective experience. We want to be seen but we're optimizing for isolation. Esther believes that the only way to improve our relationships is to remember the basics of being together. This is why she's inviting you to join her for an immersive experience: her international tour, Strangers, Friends, and Lovers. Tickets are selling fast. Get yours now at estherperel.com/tour. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:24Speaker 01

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• 0:45Esther Perel?

  If you listen to Where Should We Begin?, you know that relationships are undergoing a massive cultural shift. We've never been more connected, and we have never felt more disconnected. We crave understanding, collective experience. We want to be seen, but we're optimizing for isolation. I believe that the only way to improve our relationships is to remember the basics of being together. This is why I'm inviting you to join me for an immersive experience: my international tour, Strangers, Friends, and Lovers, where we reawaken the social animal within us all, transform strangers into friends, and maybe even friends into lovers. Tickets are selling fast.

• 1:30Esther Perel?

  Get yours now at estherperel.com/tour.

• 1:37Speaker 03

  We've been together with one another since we were 21. It was bad for 10 years, but really bad the last five years, that has culminated into her saying she wanted out of the marriage. So I came up with the idea of, let's just stay married, but live separate lives. So we've worked hard to have the level of success financially, and we want to preserve it as much as possible. And so the question is, how do we do that?

• 2:09Speaker 04

  We're staying married, yet I'm trying to unwind the attachments that we have with each other. So legally, like, do we bind ourselves together even more? We're still so connected, but I'm trying not to be connected.

• 2:24Esther Perel?

  They met in college and have been together for 40 years. They were both in their 60s,

• 2:33Esther Perel?

  and they are in a transition where she decided to leave the marriage. But what they really want at this moment is to be separated, to live separately, to be emotionally apart, but to maintain the structure of what marriage as an institution provides to a family: legally, economically, trust-wise, et cetera. What becomes very quickly clear is that while they both agree that they want separation without divorce, they both have a different understanding of what that involves and what the nature of their ongoing relationship with each other has to be. Will it be just a sharing of a business?

• 3:16Esther Perel?

  Or will it actually be a platonic relationship, more resembling a friendship? And they want very different things. So let's listen.

• 3:29Speaker 03

  I wanted to lead as big a life as possible. And she was so beautiful and so intellectual and so sophisticated compared to how I was a good Midwestern boy from Michigan. And I was born in a very white community, and so I wanted to experience something outside of my white existence.

• 3:54Esther Perel?

  And where are you from?

• 3:55Speaker 04

  I was born in the States. I'm Chinese. Both my parents were born in China.

• 4:00Esther Perel?

  So he had a kind of exotic fantasy about you. And what about you?

• 4:08Speaker 04

  So yeah, I was always attracted to the white boys. I think it was just interesting, the other, different than I am.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  And me too.

• 4:19Esther Perel?

  This curiosity and attraction to otherness, to difference?

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:28Esther Perel?

  Did it translate into your relationship? Meaning, were you able to accept difference of opinions, difference of experience, difference of perception?

• 4:40Speaker 03

  Right. No, to be honest, especially in my 20s. And I was still very much wedded to that 1950s romantic model of relationships and all the negatives that bring as well: territorialism, insecurity, jealousy, all that kind of thing. And it was very hard on her. And then it didn't help that I went to law school on top of it all to further cement the ability to argue effectively and forcefully.

• 5:16Esther Perel?

  Are you a litigator?

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:19Esther Perel?

  And you litigate in your marriage as well?

• 5:23Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm sure.

• 5:24Esther Perel?

  I just looked at her face. I got to answer.

• 5:26Speaker 04

  That was funny. Pause. Are you pausing?

• 5:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course, of course.

• 5:32Esther Perel?

  What a pity, right?

• 5:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:33Esther Perel?

  You go to look for difference, you go to look for other, and then you constantly battle their difference.

• 5:40Speaker 04

  You know, in our dynamic, the way we would communicate with each other, it felt very unhealthy. The earliest part of our relationship, there were a lot of sentences like, "If you loved me, you would." "I shouldn't have to ask you."

• 6:00Esther Perel?

  All of them said by?

• 6:03Esther Perel?

  At least you recognize the authorship.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 6:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, and versions of that continued for quite a while. You know, "I shouldn't have to ask." "You should just know to do..." You just fill in the blank, whatever it is.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  And I thought that that was okay. And then over, as I got older, I'm like, I can't read other people's minds. If a person is resistant to asking for what they want, why does it turn into my... Like, there's something wrong with me because I can't read a person's mind. Like, I disagree with that. I'm like, I'm not able to give you what you are asking for if you're yelling at me. Yelling at me is not an okay way to talk to me. That's bullying behavior. Then you understood that, and you stopped yelling so much.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Well, I came from a very explosive family. My mother had abuse in her background, and then she passed it on to her kids, me and my siblings. And we were walking on eggshells through most of our childhood. And then the law in America, it's all about that adversarial system. And so that's also a bad influence. So I think I was ultimately mostly good, supportive, loving, caring. But when we had issues, I was more prone to going violent in my voice. There had never been any physical violence on my part. But it's a big energy coming at you when I'm angry.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  I've spent a lifetime trying to deal with that anger. But I heard her. I saw it. And I did change in the way I spoke to her. Ironically, she then became more angry and violent and explosive in reverse. And we had gotten to the point when she finally said, "I've had enough," where we could barely even talk within one another. Anything said, we just off to the races. And it was almost like your siblings, where they still push your buttons from when you were 12 to when you're 60. And we grew up together.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  And it's almost that type of familiarity. It's too much familiarity.

• 8:31Esther Perel?

  It's too much reactivity.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:33Esther Perel?

  That's not the same as familiarity.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Okay, too much reactivity.

• 8:40Esther Perel?

  There is a common phrase that differences attract. But what differences are we talking about? You know, they highlight the cultural, the religious, the racial differences. And those are indeed factual differences. But when we look at how they approach relational dynamics, how they approach attachment, they are actually quite similar. They are both highly reactive. They are often quiet and meshed. They have often personalized the behavior of the other onto themselves. And in that sense, they may not be nearly as different. So there is a bit of an illusion that the external difference, the outward difference, will actually seep into the psychological layers.

• 9:25Esther Perel?

  But that's not necessarily what happens.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  When she finally said I had enough, there was no way that we could have communicated effectively out of it other than the path we've taken.

• 9:43Esther Perel?

  Is that why we're here?

• 9:45Speaker 04

  I chose to end the relationship.

• 9:48Esther Perel?

  How long ago?

• 9:49Speaker 04

  It was in September 2024.

• 9:51Esther Perel?

  Okay, so that's almost two years.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  It's the end of a big lifetime relationship. It's huge.

• 9:58Esther Perel?

  Yes. I chose to end the relationship because?

• 10:04Speaker 04

  Because we had made an agreement. We were going to Burning Man. And we agreed with our couples therapist at the time that if any issues came up relationship-wise, that we agreed we're not going to process it with each other and that we weren't going to get into any kind of relationship conversation.

• 10:29Esther Perel?

  Because you had a tendency to over-process?

• 10:37Speaker 04

  We both do. But the agreement was not just, we're not doing this right now. And it happened three times within that 10 days of Burning Man. So I thought, well, I'm done. I'm done being in partnership. I don't want to keep working at the relationship. I don't want to be together anymore. I want to separate and live independent lives.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  You know, there was a whole conversation about whether we stay married or get divorced, but I didn't want to be in partnership.

• 11:11Esther Perel?

  Okay. One more, just so I understand. Because if you say, you know, we had agreed we wouldn't talk about us and he broke the agreement and I was pissed off, I had enough. And that's when I decided to end the relationship. It sounds light. So what did that settle on? What was the sedimentation? What was the strength of the relationship? And what has done you under?

• 11:43Speaker 04

  We wanted the same things. We wanted to have adventures, wanted to have kids. We were always on the same page. And then, I mean, before we had kids, actually, we had started exploring, I mean, I call it now ethical non-monogamy, but at first we were just swingers, going to sex parties. And that was great. It was totally fun. So we had always wanted to do the same thing. And all through that were the, how come you don't want this? How come you don't act this? Why do you do this? How come I can't just do this? It was kind of a very fighty relationship, but we would always then come back together because we really loved each other.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  We felt really connected. And then over time, you know, we all change.

• 12:36Esther Perel?

  So why are we here? Why did you apply?

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Because I would hope that we could continue to love from afar, but in a more platonic, friendly way, to manage and handle our finances and our family. How do we handle the third act of our lives with some grace and love for one another?

• 13:05Speaker 03

  It's not what I want. It's incredibly painful every day without our partnership. It's not what I had envisioned. And I didn't like being separated, but I can see and I understood why she did it. And I want her to be her happiest self. And if that means not being with me, I understand that. It's not what I want, but I understand it. And so if it's her choice in these remaining years, I want to make them as good as possible as we exit.

• 13:49Speaker 03

  There's moments where it's just incredibly painful and it's an exercise in pain and just breathing through the pain.

• 13:55Esther Perel?

  The pain is the loss?

• 13:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:57Esther Perel?

  Like I'm looking at this and it's beautiful and I'm wondering where the fuck did we screw this whole thing up?

• 14:03Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think I know how we screwed it up. It's not the issue. It's like...

• 14:07Esther Perel?

  The grief about having done so?

• 14:10Speaker 03

  Probably that, for sure. But it's also, I like to look to what could be and what we had thought we were going to be in this time of our lives. And it's not that. And now it's, you know, 180 degrees in a different direction. And coming to terms with that reality, right?

• 14:32Esther Perel?

  But you feel you're the only one grieving?

• 14:34Speaker 03

  No, no. To me, I was excited and nervous to come to this therapy because I really have not heard her inner thoughts in two years. I don't know exactly where she's been or what's going on in her life. I'm hearing it newly as well.

• 14:54Esther Perel?

  Do you want to know if she gets sad sometimes like you?

• 14:59Esther Perel?

  If she misses you like you do?

• 15:05Speaker 03

  So I learned a long time ago with her, you never ask a question you don't want to hear because she'll tell you. And it may not be what you want or imagine. So I'm afraid.

• 15:19Esther Perel?

  Right. Because sometimes when we have these questions,

• 15:25Esther Perel?

  I always ask, do you want to know the answer to your question?

• 15:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:30Esther Perel?

  Or do you want her to know that you have the question?

• 15:37Esther Perel?

  Which is a very, very normal human question to have. I ache. Do you too?

• 15:46Esther Perel?

  I miss us in certain moments. Of course, I don't miss the low-intensity warfare that we lived in for decades. Do you? I have found memories to you.

• 16:02Esther Perel?

  But you may not want to know the answer, but you want her to know that you have that thought.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  I would love to know all that. I just have felt that it's so new in this new relationship that she's fairly locked down and reserved. And I don't know if she would like or appreciate the question.

• 16:31Speaker 04

  If I would like or appreciate you asking me?

• 16:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 04

  I mean, I sense that you would like to know. You don't ask me.

• 16:43Speaker 04

  You know, it's a lot to, it's a lot to end a lifelong relationship by choice. I just didn't want to keep having the same interactions anymore. And I didn't think we were making progress.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, I didn't like the separation, but I learned to respect it afterwards and believe in it. I get it.

• 17:08Esther Perel?

  Do you admire her ability to make the decision?

• 17:12Speaker 03

  So I'm proud that she has.

• 17:14Esther Perel?

  You are?

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  I fully support your desire to make your life for yourself

• 17:30Speaker 03

  again, even if it's without me.

• 17:34Speaker 04

  I appreciate that. I mean, I chose it because I had to, because it was not livable for me anymore.

• 17:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:54Esther Perel?

  So as I listen to him again now, I'm trying to understand the various meanings that this word "I admire her for leaving me", for having made that decision, for doing something that was right for her, even if that involves my not being in her life. What does this word admiration stand for here? And I'm wondering if on some level there is a sense that she was able to finally leave him in a way that he was not able to ever leave his mom and to disengage from his mom and to actually make a choice that would be for him away from the conflict, away from the chronic criticism, bickering, put downs, aggressions.

• 18:37Esther Perel?

  So that's one way to think about admiration. I said, are you proud of her? But I could have asked also, is there a part of you that feels that you deserve this?

• 18:50Esther Perel?

  That she actually was able to finally say enough is enough? Stop because of how you were acting? That she was able to extricate herself? And that you have not? And you were not able with her either? You would have continued this for a long time. So sometimes one listens to a session again and it's like, oh, I didn't really go enough into this direction. I could have deepened a little more here. I'm not really sure actually what he meant there. And that's the beauty usually of having another session the week after, which, on where should we begin? I only meet the couples once. So it will remain a question mark for me and I guess for you.

• 19:37Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 19:49Esther Perel?

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• 23:25Esther Perel?

  You can decide

• 23:28Esther Perel?

  in what ways you will stay in each other's life

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:31Esther Perel?

  and wish them well.

• 23:34Esther Perel?

  And have a family gathering, come together for the holidays. The story isn't over. The story is changing.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:43Esther Perel?

  And it is transitioning.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  It's not easy staying married in a divorce-compelled society. But I guess we do it always a little differently. Like, I always talk about doing it the 19th-century way, where, you know, Ben Franklin was on the continent and his wife was in America for 40 years. They didn't see each other, but they were married and I'm sure they had some relationship with one another.

• 24:15Esther Perel?

  What would that look like concretely? When you envision?

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 24:21Esther Perel?

  What is your vision?

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Of course, I would love to have the relationship back again, but on new terms. But she clearly doesn't feel that way. So then the next best for me is that we at least treat each other with love and consideration and respect.

• 24:39Esther Perel?

  And is that happening?

• 24:40Speaker 03

  No, not completely. It's gotten a lot better in the last three months. Some of it is because we have 300 miles of distance between each other and we don't hear or talk to each other from, you know, a week or two on.

• 24:57Speaker 04

  I mean, for me, it's been an ongoing process. I want to keep our conversations about factual things that are logistical or something having to do with the kids. Because we're staying married, so technically, we have all this together. You know, when you send me a text asking me about something, there are times when I get irritated. So I have to pause before I just fire back whatever my initial response is.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  So what kind of relationship do you want to have with me?

• 25:31Speaker 04

  We are kind and respectful when we're dealing with, you know, our kids and whatever's going on with them. And then, you know, all our assets and liabilities. Like, it's like a bit... We have a business and we are co-owners of a business. But the relationship is dealing with the facts and the logistics. And the emotional stuff, I don't want that to be part of my everyday interaction with you.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  So you just... You don't want to know what's going on with me? You just want to have a business relationship? Is if we were business colleagues at the office and that you don't really have a much deeper connection or friendship with me other than the business of the day, the specifics of the facts and the figures and the money? That's the only kind of relationship?

• 26:31Speaker 04

  I mean, I want you to be happy and do what you want to do. But I don't need to be participating in an intimate way with helping you to realize that. Because you're living your life.

• 26:42Speaker 03

  Well, so...

• 26:42Speaker 04

  And I don't want to be in an intimate partnership with you anymore.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  Not even a friendship?

• 26:48Speaker 04

  I'm not sure that I have the space right now to be a friend. It's really been very soon. It's not even been two years. I have to take care of myself because that's all I've got. I don't want to know what's going on in your emotional life. I had a lot of it. I had a little too much of what was going on in your emotional life. Like, I felt very responsible for a lot of it. But I don't really have space for that right now. Because it's a lot. It's a really heavy load. And I want to be free to do what I want to do. So... And I don't want to do that.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  But you've always been free to do whatever you want to do?

• 27:27Speaker 04

  I am gonna disagree with that because I did not have that experience. I had a different experience.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 27:33Speaker 04

  I very much had the experience that it was my responsibility to deal with your emotional state.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  But don't you think I had to deal with your emotional state as well too?

• 27:42Speaker 04

  I didn't say that. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying...

• 27:44Speaker 03

  But isn't that what you do in a relationship? Isn't that what a relationship is? Is that you have your personality, I have my personality, we try to accommodate as much as possible?

• 27:55Esther Perel?

  Here is what's happening.

• 27:59Esther Perel?

  What actually happened under the hood? She says, "I want us to congregate around our joint business. That's all I want." He experiences her as distancing. He then brings her back and says, "What kind of relationship do you actually want?" She just said it. But he wants her in the arena with him. She then says, again, "The business. I don't want to know your personal life, your emotional life. I felt too responsible for it. I want to feel free." What does he do? He grabs the one sentence that he can disagree with. "You've always been free." So now she gets the hook. "You've always been free." So she can begin to say, "That's not how I saw it. That's not how I felt it. That may be your perception.

• 28:45Esther Perel?

  It's not my experience." And what does he then say? Ping-pong. Let's go symmetric. That I did the same. Me too. You think I didn't have to deal with your emotional reality? So and then she says, "That is not what I said." Because he speaks as if this is implied. And then he says, "But isn't that what a relationship is or should be?" And at that moment, if I didn't stop it, they were off on the races. It just was the same conversation again. But the dynamic of the conversation is, "How can I bring you into the arena? Where is the hook on which I can say something that is provocative enough for you to then react to me?

• 29:29Esther Perel?

  And we will then have accomplished one thing. I'm still not alone and you're still with me. We're in negative heat and bad friction, but we are together."

• 29:44Esther Perel?

  If I understand what you want is to stay legally married, to preserve the stability of your family, of your economic reality, of your legal rights as married people. You know, there are about a thousand laws in America in your favor when you're married.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  It's unbelievable.

• 30:04Esther Perel?

  So you want to preserve the structure, but you do not want to put the emotional relationship in the center of it or at all anymore. And that demands disengaging. You won't be separated if you don't disengage. And the kind of conversation you just began, you are completely back in what you have been doing for way too long. It's like a moth to the light, irresistible, an instant. That conversation, first of all, you've had it multiple times. But also, if you really do not want to engage, don't.

• 30:48Esther Perel?

  He will try because you're not in the same place. You say, "I want just a structure because I don't know how to disentangle myself from our fusion style without a more imposed distance and separateness for me." And you continue to imagine what you both have enjoyed. We share so much. We have such shared visions. Can we become friends? And she says, "Maybe, maybe not. Not now. I can't think about it." And you say, "Every day gets worse for me. I'm more unhappy every day." And you haven't said, but what I imagined you're saying, "I'm happier every day."

• 31:32Speaker 03

  I don't think I said that I was more and more unhappy every day.

• 31:37Esther Perel?

  That's how I heard it.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 31:39Esther Perel?

  What did you say?

• 31:41Speaker 03

  It's painful. I'm going through the process.

• 31:44Esther Perel?

  That's okay. There's nothing negative about it. But you're not on the same plane at this moment. When she says, "No," you're not listening to the "no." You're listening to, "Is there still a hook somewhere?" And then you fall for it.

• 32:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't want to keep doing that.

• 32:06Esther Perel?

  But you did. You know you did.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:08Esther Perel?

  That's why I stopped you because it doesn't take much, which is what you said. We could barely have a conversation. Well, this was going to be one of these barely a conversation. I could let you go on for a few more minutes, but for what?

• 32:21Speaker 03

  You don't have time, yeah.

• 32:22Esther Perel?

  For what? The most you can probably say is it hurts to hear you say that. Rather than argue with the veracity of it or how much you think you gave her all the freedom. Nothing is black and white here. You've had an amazing relationship and it's been quite volatile and quite enmeshed. And instead of, "I did and you didn't," if you really want that kindness that you talk about or that friendship that you talk about, it starts with what I appreciate, what I thank you for, what I take with me,

• 33:04Esther Perel?

  what I wish I had done differently. It's a quadrant to uncouple. It's what you're asking. How do we uncouple? We maintain the structure legally, economically, family, but find a way to actually be able to have any conversation because otherwise you won't be able to maintain the structure. Every conversation about something meant to be factual, we devolve within a split second into another emotional argument. That's for the emotional part of the relationship. For the larger structural question is what is it that you want to keep? And what is it that you want to let go of?

• 33:49Esther Perel?

  I hear homes, finances, legalities, which depends on a lot of trust.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  Implicitly.

• 33:58Esther Perel?

  Trust that you are really looking out for the well-being of both of you.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Right. And that's exactly what I want to do.

• 34:07Esther Perel?

  So can we go to the framework a little bit? So that it starts to feel a little more organized for both of you.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 34:16Esther Perel?

  Forty years, as you say, is a lifetime. What do you take with you? What is it that you have cherished, valued, learned, received? Forty years.

• 34:31Speaker 04

  A lot. I mean, we've had a great relationship. We did all sorts of amazing things together. We've made a lot of friends through all those experiences and had great adventures. Two amazing kids. They're great. They're good humans. So I appreciate that. It's huge. I just, you know, we got to where we got. People talk about a lifetime.

• 34:56Esther Perel?

  You don't have to do that. You can put a period. It doesn't have to be undermined by then bringing in the other side.

• 35:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:03Esther Perel?

  Let it be.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  You've been a great love emotionally and physically and intellectually. You've challenged me in all sorts of ways to be a better, more intelligent, more sophisticated, more adventurous person. You've been a willing partner in crime to go on all these great adventures. And now it's the new adventure.

• 35:38Speaker 04

  We always said that we could make our relationship any way we wanted to.

• 35:42Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 35:44Speaker 04

  It's just a new relationship.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  Right. I would just hope at some point, given our life interactions with one another, that it would be, you know, honoring some part of that with some level of friendship that's greater than a business colleague. I would hope that we could at least get to that point where we're not so triggered, that we could have that platonic love for one another.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  I understand. I can do it. I don't know when. I'm going to be ready to do it.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  I understand that.

• 36:38Esther Perel?

  What do I wish I had done differently?

• 36:43Speaker 03

  Oh, there's, you know, so many regrets. Obviously, my insecurities. I wish I had a better, greater handle on it. And it's just taken me too long.

• 36:59Esther Perel?

  What are we talking about?

• 37:02Speaker 03

  Self-worth, my own feeling of my place in the world. And I've been saddled with that my entire life. And I've been trying to resolve that. And unfortunately, you've taken the brunt of that.

• 37:17Esther Perel?

  What did you do?

• 37:19Speaker 03

  Oh, I was verbally abusive and manipulative and whiny and aggressive and demanding. And all that stemmed from my deep insecurity.

• 37:35Esther Perel?

  You recognized it as such or you blamed her?

• 37:38Speaker 03

  No, I recognized it as such.

• 37:41Esther Perel?

  All along?

• 37:42Speaker 03

  Well, no, not in my twenties and probably not until my thirties, but by my forties and fifties, yes. By my sixties, for sure. So.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  Yep. Honestly, I wish I had learned about nervous system work earlier. It would have helped me a lot to learn that or better communication skills.

• 38:06Esther Perel?

  What did I do? What did you do that you would have done differently if you had learned this?

• 38:14Speaker 04

  I would have hoped that I could have gotten to that self-work of why do I say these things that are harmful? I mean, I'm a nitpicky person, so I'm critical. You know, that tone of being judgy and contemptuous and...

• 38:32Speaker 03

  The joke in our community was that she's just silently judging you, right?

• 38:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:40Esther Perel?

  A judgy person with a person who struggles with self-worth, that's quite a match.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a tall order, wasn't it, to try to overcome and to make work?

• 38:51Esther Perel?

  What has happened to your circle of friends and to your family?

• 38:54Speaker 04

  We have a lot of overlapping friends, actually.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  It's almost as if we're starting new friend groups, although we have some very close friends.

• 39:05Esther Perel?

  But your new friend groups are separate.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have other friend groups that he's... Yeah, he's not part of them.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  I joined a car club.

• 39:14Esther Perel?

  A car club?

• 39:15Speaker 03

  And I have a four-wheel-drive Expedition RV that I plan to start driving around the world in. And I want to see as much of the surface I can while I'm still able to do it.

• 39:27Esther Perel?

  So I have a question. That kind of sharing, in or out?

• 39:33Speaker 04

  Meaning, am I interested or...?

• 39:36Esther Perel?

  Is it still part of what we include?

• 39:39Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 39:40Esther Perel?

  In what we preserve, what remains common and joint and what remains separate? Just the sharing of the information?

• 39:48Speaker 04

  Okay. I think that sounds great. You've always wanted to do that. You love to adventure. So I'm glad that it is your priority for you.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Well, I wanted to travel before I met you. But I'll be honest, I'm afraid to ask you what's going on in your life because I want to be respectful to your process. And so I don't ask you what you're doing in your life.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, I understand. But I prefer to do the processing of it on my own. I'm hung up about autonomy these days.

• 40:28Esther Perel?

  I hear.

• 40:32Esther Perel?

  But it's not just these days.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I've always been super private, yeah.

• 40:37Esther Perel?

  And I was watching this conversation and thinking, is this what they wanted to be able to do when they were in an intimate relationship with each other?

• 40:48Speaker 03

  I think we did it. You know, ninety percent of our relationship was really great and we were really successful at it, right?

• 40:55Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  And that last five percent was bad. It was really bad.

• 41:00Esther Perel?

  But it took up more and more.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  At the end, yeah, it was all consuming.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  And as I look back on it, you had forty years of inertia to overcome, to break out of the orbit. And so it got really bad at the end.

• 41:21Esther Perel?

  What I also hear is we got to such a level of reactivity

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:28Esther Perel?

  and volatility, and neither of us knew how to stop it. We didn't know how to create a little bit of space.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  We tried, but we couldn't.

• 41:38Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 41:40Speaker 04

  I know that I tried. Was I good at it? No, it was all very new to me to learn a communication style I didn't grow up with. But I couldn't get there just on my own. I tried really hard.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:57Esther Perel?

  But what I'm hearing that stands out from you is that you live in a paradox between, on the one hand, you know, I am not emotionally expressive. I do not have that vocabulary handy to me. He explodes. He does all kinds of what you call emotional bullying.

• 42:19Esther Perel?

  On the other hand, I feel everything in my body, sensation and all. I boil inside and I don't know what to do with it. So I may not use the words. I may not be aware of feelings, but I'm certainly aware of sensations, which is the precursor to feelings.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:44Esther Perel?

  And to add to that, I experienced the need to shut down that valve as the first step in being able to extricate myself from this bond and bind.

• 43:03Esther Perel?

  Hence, I don't want to tell you much.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  This is her saying it to me.

• 43:06Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. This is me channeling her.

• 43:12Esther Perel?

  And then I'm looking at her face to see if I'm on track or...

• 43:16Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  It was really interesting by the end because we had really switched roles and she became the emotional bully, if you ask me, and the volatile one. And I became more and more calm about it. It's probably too little, too late. But I was always seeking to try to be a better and loving partner with you and more communicative with you. And I've always felt that you were trying to do that as well, too.

• 43:44Esther Perel?

  That's a very beautiful statement you just made.

• 43:50Esther Perel?

  I just want you to hold that for a moment. It's a really honorable... It's very easy to trash a relationship when you leave, to want to turn it into something bad to justify the decision.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:07Esther Perel?

  It's much harder to leave something that had so much good.

• 44:15Esther Perel?

  We've had many sessions on the podcast that talk about ending relationships and often where one person is more determined, more clear or more closed off as a way to create separateness on the way to hopefully developing true autonomy. This session also has one person who feels that the ending needs to be more severe and the other person hoping that actually by having a separation without divorce, it would also yield a friendship, a connection, a where are you at, what's happening in your life, a chum.

• 44:57Esther Perel?

  Something that she's utterly not interested because all of that gets very quickly subsumed under a massive set of emotional manipulations meant to keep the other person from actually having their own separate lives.

• 45:14Esther Perel?

  And neither of them probably wanted this to end this way, especially if they talk about the ninety percent of a glorious relationship and the five percent that poisoned everything.

• 45:26Esther Perel?

  But this five percent began to completely erode whatever else had existed, to the point where she fled.

• 45:33Esther Perel?

  As I said in the beginning of the session, Burning Man was not the reason why she left. His pursuing her, to talk, to process, to engage, to become the reason and the responsible one for his emotional distress was what she was really trying to escape from. But it wasn't just his doing. I want to be very clear about that, too. Forty years together demands a real co-creation.

• 46:08Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 46:15Esther Perel?

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• 47:00Esther Perel?

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• 47:23Esther Perel?

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• 48:06Esther Perel?

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• 48:51Esther Perel?

  Joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 48:59Esther Perel?

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• 49:25Speaker 00

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• 49:43Esther Perel?

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• 50:14Esther Perel?

  I'm gonna ask you the same question again at the end of the session. Why are we here? Why are we here? What, what did? And did you actually get any of what you came for? That you may or may not have said?

• 50:29Speaker 03

  I came to have this exact conversation because we literally have not had any discussion to allow us to even talk with one another.

• 50:41Esther Perel?

  Meaning that having a conversation without exploding at each other?

• 50:46Speaker 03

  Conversation about where we're at in a relationship.

• 50:48Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 03

  Where she really stands. So I understand where do we go from there? And what is the game plan from now on? And we literally have not had that conversation for two years. Part of which is because it was not possible for us to have that conversation.

• 51:07Esther Perel?

  Alone?

• 51:08Speaker 03

  Alone.

• 51:08Esther Perel?

  Because I didn't do much.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  I know, but I say it's everything. Because of your gravitas and then of your space. To allow us to have this civil conversation in our best behavior. But also being called when it's starting to go south. And then to have a mature adult discussion about this. And to pick up the pieces and move forward about how we're gonna navigate this new relationship that we have with one another. For so, for Demi.

• 51:43Esther Perel?

  You have two verbs. I understand and it hurts badly.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  And that's life.

• 51:56Esther Perel?

  You don't have to philosophize. You can just feel it.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  No, it is. So.

• 52:03Esther Perel?

  You have two verbs.

• 52:07Esther Perel?

  Do you know?

• 52:10Speaker 04

  Well, to feel it.

• 52:12Esther Perel?

  And not to owe it.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  Not to owe it. Can you explain?

• 52:18Esther Perel?

  Yes. Think you said it yourself in the beginning. I was completely immersed in his internal world.

• 52:29Esther Perel?

  He told me what I should be feeling, was not feeling, could be feeling, should respond to his feeling.

• 52:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:37Esther Perel?

  And I could never do it right. On top of it. So I'm learning to know, to identify, to name, and to hold it for myself.

• 52:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 52:50Esther Perel?

  I have been a part of this unit. Both of you have been a part of this relationship. Very, very deeply. Very rooted. And I think that for both of you. The disengaging and the dissolving is, is a root canal. And I think the word friend and friendship. If something good happens, just say, I'm very touched by this. So this moves me or that last night at the dinner table, it was just, it was beautiful. Highlight the experience and don't go looking for the title. The title will come when the story has been told.

• 53:32Esther Perel?

  Right now, you want a title without a story.

• 53:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:37Esther Perel?

  Why did you come?

• 53:39Speaker 04

  Why did I come?

• 53:40Esther Perel?

  Yeah. What did we do here? And was it useful?

• 53:43Speaker 04

  Very useful. And I'll, I'll be honest.

• 53:47Esther Perel?

  No, I don't expect anything.

• 53:50Speaker 04

  You know, right when we broke up, I, I wanna just skip over the denial anger. I wanna skip over and get to bargaining and acceptance. It's like, let's do a conscious uncoupling. Let's, you know, come to an agreement. How are we gonna unstructure our lives? But I was delusional. I mean, I was thinking that I could skip over the, the other things that were really important to process, which I'm continuing to process. So I knew there was a potential that this could be similar to, as you say, appreciation, gratitude for our relationship.

• 54:29Speaker 04

  And I'm gonna admit, there is the part of me is still very ungenerous. Where I'm like, I don't really wanna do that. There was a part of me who was like, I'm not ready to do that yet.

• 54:48Esther Perel?

  You don't need to do more than what you just did. You don't have to come back to this.

• 54:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:55Esther Perel?

  This is a way of stepping across a threshold and marking a transition. You don't have to do this again. Or not in the near future. You don't.

• 55:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  I feel that way.

• 55:10Esther Perel?

  You said what you had to say. You said it quite nicely and kindly. If there is more, you can always write. You know, short and to the point. No using that as an opportunity to rehash the whole relationship and everything.

• 55:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't.

• 55:30Speaker 03

  I do not feel that need either.

• 55:33Speaker 04

  I don't want to do that.

• 55:33Esther Perel?

  I think you said plenty.

• 55:36Speaker 04

  It was beautiful.

• 55:38Esther Perel?

  Good. Take a deep breath.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Moller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 56:33Speaker 03

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• 57:04Speaker 01

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