Blame achieves nothing! How to forgive yourself and others, with Charlie Mackesy

Blame isn’t helpful. Illustrator and author Charlie Mackesy thinks learning to forgive yourself and others will lead to more peace. In this chat, Fearne and Charlie talk from personal experience about just how physical shame can feel. Charlie explains how fear of abandonment keeps us silent about our insecurities, but that in reality the moment we start talking about our shame is the moment real human connection is made. Charlie and Fearne also chat about how polarised the world is becoming, and offer advice for how to cope with fear, as well as why it’s important to disagree respectfully. Plus, why did Charlie feel he needed to hide away in the toilets at the Oscars? Charlie’s latest book, Always Remember: The Boy, The Mole, The Fox, The Horse, and The Storm, is out now. CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains some conversation about suicidal ideation. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Teddy Swims https://pod.fo/e/2c05a7 Will Poulter https://pod.fo/e/2bd0dd Olly Alexander https://pod.fo/e/28dfd0 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that helps us understand each other better. Today, I'm chatting to Charlie Macassie.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  You know, I'm a great one for looking to blame, whether it's me or someone else. But I think in the end, blame doesn't really achieve a great deal, I've learnt. Because at some point, you have to let it go, either yourself, forgive yourself or others, and walk free of things. I think it's very important, if bad things have been done, to say them. But in the end, once you've processed all that, to let it go means that you're not continually drinking from the same cup of toxin that only damages yourself.

• 1:09Fearne Cotton?

  How are you, gang? I hope you're all well and happy. This is a really thoughtful, beautiful chat you're about to hear, so do stick around. I needed this chat. This is the good thing about doing this podcast, is sometimes I turn up in a shitty mood, or I'm just really discombobulated, stressed out. And then I have a chat and my whole mindset changes. And you know, that's what I hope for you lot that listen too. I turned up today slightly flustered, all sorts of, you know, the usual stuff. My son's lost his football boots and he's got a football match today. You know, all the usual sort of stresses. I also had an epic fail at the weekend where it was my daughter's 10th birthday and I

• 1:51Fearne Cotton?

  had ordered a bouncy castle helter-skelter, which I saw online and got quite excited about. I hadn't measured it and it wouldn't fit through the house. So I had to have this... Fucking massive inflatable helter skelter erected on my driveway. I mean, it filled every millimetre of it. I had people stopping outside the house looking. I mean, it was ludicrous, but luckily we turned what was going to be a nightmare of, oh, my God, we haven't got a bouncy castle into this is so much more fun. It's on the drive. But I'm going through all the usual ups and downs that we all are. But this chat so massively helped me. I've literally just finished the chat like five minutes ago.

• 2:35Fearne Cotton?

  So I'm still buzzing from chatting to our wonderful, wonderful guest. So let's get to him. Charlie Macacy is the incredible illustrator and author behind the record breaking book, The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse. And now there's a sequel. It's called Always Remember, The Boy, The Mole, The Fox, The Horse and The Storm. I have been a massive fan of Charlie's for, I don't know how long, but probably as long as you lot have. I followed him on Instagram for a while now and just have loved seeing his drawings, whether on Instagram or in book form. I buy his book for everybody. It's just the most comforting, moving, evocative book.

• 3:15Fearne Cotton?

  I think how he not only manages to capture so much emotion in his drawings, there's some magic that he creates. I don't know how he does it, but also the words he chooses to accompany the pictures. They get you. The amount of times I've like opened one of his books, either the new one or his initial book and just sort of welled up immediately. He is just so clever. So we talk about a lot in this chat. We talk about bringing out people's humanity because he'd had quite an extraordinary train journey into the studio today. We talk about how to stop blaming yourself and others, just sort of blame not being helpful at all. We also did like a really nice deep dive on shame.

• 3:59Fearne Cotton?

  It's a subject that I'm fascinated about and sort of want to talk about a bit more, but it feels really scary. So that felt like a good time to do that today. So, yeah, we have a really good chat about shame. But still, I'm sat here now thinking, oh, God, there were like five more things that I forgot to mention because we went off on all these different tangents and different people that I wanted to talk to him about, different artists. And there's so much in this chat that I think you'll really, really love.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 4:44Speaker 04

  Everybody, listen up!

• 4:45Speaker 03

  Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 5:00Speaker 05

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• 5:32Speaker 06

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 5:35Speaker 06

  And this is Boots Off.

• 5:38Speaker 04

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 5:46Speaker 06

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 5:56Speaker 06

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 6:01Speaker 06

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 6:09Speaker 06

  Okay, here we go. This is the show.

• 6:32Fearne Cotton?

  Charlie, I'm so happy to have you on Happy Place.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 6:36Fearne Cotton?

  You've had an eventful morning?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have. Quite a shocking morning on the train, yeah. It was really... Do you want to know about it?

• 6:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  So, I was sitting there scribbling away, on an iPad actually, and in a very silent carriage, no one saying anything, for an hour. And then, right at the end of the journey, two ticket inspectors... There's a queue of people getting off. Two ladies, ticket inspectors, were standing next to me. And they looked down and went, "Oh, look at that, look at that." And we were laughing about it, I'm saying, "What is it then?" They said, "Oh, I recognise that, do I recognise that?" And then, we chatted about it. It was about drawing a map for France, something. And I had the book in the bag, I said, "Here you go, look, this is the book." They went, "Oh, that's you, that's you."

• 7:26Speaker 02

  And then the whole carriage just kind of stopped and came around. And we'd all been completely silent for an hour, and suddenly, "What's that?", and then, "Oh yeah, dah dah." And then I got off the train, and it was very, really lovely. And I got an immediate message from... She's on my phone, I showed you, on Facebook, from Maria, who is one of the ticket inspectors, saying, "Lovely to meet you."

• 7:49Fearne Cotton?

  That's so nice.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  And I said, "Look, I'll bring a book for you if I'm on that, because I'm often on that train." And I was walking across the platform, Liverpool Street Station, which is huge and quite, I don't know, just like cathedral-like. And a girl came up to me and said, "Are you Charlie?" And I said, "Yeah." And she stopped, and she didn't speak for a while. And she was nodding, she said, "Oh, I just want to say, I had a miscarriage and everything went dark for me. And I just lost purpose, but someone gave me a book." And she had tears in her eyes, and she just said, "So, anyway, just thought I'd say hello and say thank you." And we stood there, and it was, you know, just an ordinary morning,

• 8:32Speaker 02

  suddenly became very human and very lovely and very vulnerable and honest. And people came out of themselves, you know.

• 8:41Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, there's so much to say already, because...

• 8:46Fearne Cotton?

  Isn't it striking that we find any human interaction these days sort of alarming in a good way, like, wow, we're talking to people.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  They were on the screen.

• 8:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because everybody is cocooned in their own little world. So it is astonishing when you have a moment of connection with any human you don't know, whether it's, you know, you know, an incident could happen or something happens and you end up talking to someone on the train, or it's always sort of profound and amazing. But you have this extra layer of knowing that you've really touched people's lives in a way that you possibly can't always comprehend.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  I can't comprehend it at all. And there are many that I haven't affected, but the ones that I meet who have been, it just blows my mind. And, you know, there I am just thinking about not much, worrying that I'm going to be late for you and bump into this person. And, and of course, you know, like, when you make something like a book or whatever, while you're eating spaghetti or sleeping or doing nothing, it's busy doing stuff, even though you're, you're just, you know, scratching your arms and being really ordinary. It's out there. And I find that really moving, that, that these lives that, what saddens me most actually is when I, when I made the first book, that it, pretty much after it came out, it was the pandemic and we couldn't speak to anyone. So I didn't really meet anyone for a long time.

• 10:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  And then when I started to, when it all opened up and I bumped into people in the street, it just, every time it did, it choked me up because I was meeting real people, not, you know, Instagram, I love everyone and that they've been so encouraging for me, but I don't meet them. Like, they're not. So when you do, it's like, oh, wow.

• 10:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you put a face to that story.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  So you're real.

• 10:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  And it meant something. And that's such a treat for me.

• 10:28Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's, it's remarkable, but, you know, what you create and your, your books, your pictures, even, you know, on Instagram, I think that's probably how I first discovered your work was Instagram. Been following you for a long time and I love your first book. We're going to get to the second book in a minute. But the way you draw touches people, the, the words that you put to the drawings, there's an alchemy there that, you know, not many people have managed to achieve that. It's quite a niche thing to be an illustrator. Like, if you would To say to your careers advisor, I want to be a cartoonist or illustrator.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't do that.

• 10:59Fearne Cotton?

  I'm gonna say, think of a plan B.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:02Fearne Cotton?

  But you've managed it in a most exceptional way. We are not only doing something with immense skill, but also you're managing to connect to other humans. And that takes, I'm not sure what kind of magic it is, but whether it's art, music, writing. It's really an amazing skill slash bit of magic that enables your work to really touch people and really open them up or get them feeling something. Are you aware that you're doing it when you're making the drawings? Like, how does that feel to do that?

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Well, everything you said is really lovely. I mean, I, I, I think I used to just make the drawings for friends. So it was very immediate. It wasn't, this is gonna go to lots of people. It was, this is what I feel. And I would just do it without any, any sense of the consequence of it. I couldn't engineer them.

• 11:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  I just thought, you know, if I, you know, have good friends and some of them really struggle and as do I half the time. So we often chat about existence and what keeps us going. And then, and then I, on WhatsApp, I'll do a drawing photograph and send it to them. Say, how do you feel about this? And they were, oh, yeah, okay. So for me, it was more, my immediate friends and Instagram was very small. You know, so I just would post things and then read the comments and interact with them and be moved when they were moved. And, you know, sometimes I get an email from the military in Australia asking me to, if they could use the, a drawing to help their guys who've been, you know, in some sort of scary situation and to help them through something.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  So I, for me, if someone had said, make a drawing that would help people, I didn't, I wouldn't know what to do, really.

• 12:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  It comes from my, the closest bit of me to the people close to me. And as honestly as I can, and then if someone else is moved by it, great. Do you know what I mean?

• 12:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, do you think, it seems like you feel a lot. I, I'm a person that feels too much.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  I feel too much.

• 12:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like it's, it's almost overwhelming all the time.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  All the time.

• 13:02Fearne Cotton?

  Like whatever emotion it is, it's a lot.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:06Fearne Cotton?

  Is there a therapeutic notion to you doing it? Like, does it help you? Are you like, oh, and now that's out of me?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I, I, I know when I first, I could, I could get away with making drawings at school and that kind of stuff. And, and could draw, draw the teachers and do cartoons and make people laugh. But I, and beyond that, I didn't really have a reason for it. And then, you know, for me, that big, we all have like these big sort of red line salient moments. And mine was, my best friend was killed when I was 18. And like what happened there and what is wide grief is a form of madness. And it's, it's, I didn't really, every day was like something else would go on inside of me. And I wouldn't know what it was. And, and I, I remember finding a drawing pan and some paper and started to scribble down things.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  And it definitely had, as you say, even though I didn't know it at the time, a therapeutic energy to it. And it was a way of somehow making sense of my feelings or getting them out there, just laying them down. And, and I didn't, at the time, I wasn't, normally I'm quite critical of myself, but the drawings, I felt, I, I gave them some grace and just said, just do whatever, you know, just get, get it out. And then I remember sitting on the street in London. I just came to London, I'd been quite a rural person. And I was there because, you know, someone gave me a lift and I thought I'd stay for a weekend, stay on the floor. And I remember sitting on the street drawing and then with a Walkman on and, and someone coming by and looking at it.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  And then, and then nodding and walking off. And I thought, that's nice. And then I remember someone else coming by with their kids a couple of days later. And she looked at the drawing and then I heard her say to her kids as she was walking off, that's what happened to you if you don't do your homework. Yeah, it was great.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  But yeah, fair enough. So it was all this interaction going on. And but now and again, I'd tell one and I, and that's what kept me going. And but as you quite rightly said, when you're at school, you know, you, you have all these career kind of choices. Being an artist is like, no, no, no, you don't do that.

• 15:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  You're a lawyer, you're a this or you're that, or you're a doctor, you know.

• 15:26Fearne Cotton?

  Which is a massive shame.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  It is a huge shame.

• 15:29Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I, I'm a massive art lover.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:32Fearne Cotton?

  You know, and I, I don't come from a sort of a massively arty background. My dad was a sign writer and.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 15:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like amazing. For his whole career, he was a sign writer and he's very good with his hands, like building stuff. And but his, his art is beautiful.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:45Fearne Cotton?

  But he was always self-taught and the sign writing was all by hand back in the day. So I was always around paint and fumes and mess and.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love that.

• 15:53Fearne Cotton?

  Bits of papers. So I grew up drawing. That was definitely my outlet for just like relaxing. And obviously back when I was a kid, we didn't have screens. So it was just a draw constantly.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  It was very normal for you.

• 16:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And I, and I, I love it still. And it seems like ever more so, it feels like, oh, it's just like a, that's a dossy lesson to do at school. Like, don't think of that seriously.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  It was the doss, wasn't it?

• 16:13Fearne Cotton?

  But we need art. I mean, I.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  More and more as well. It's become more and more central, I think.

• 16:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And we need art to be more and more accessible. And I think that's what I love about what you're doing too. Cause I think art is still seen to many people as like, it's inaccessible.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 16:27Fearne Cotton?

  It's exclusive, it's wanky, it's not for me.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:29Fearne Cotton?

  Whereas, you know, I'm, I'm from a working class background. I can't think of anything I'd rather do than go to the National Portrait Gallery on a Saturday and stand in front of my favorite. I just went to see the Jenny Saville exhibition recently. And I just stood in that last room and I was literally like buzzing. Her artwork to me is just heaven. And it makes you feel something. Could be happiness, could move you, like your pictures move people. But we need, we need music, we need theatre, we need art. And I don't think we should feel worried about saying that. We need, we need it.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  We do need it really badly. Yeah. And I think it's very important. And our culture, I mean, it, it, it harms us if we. Cease to fun things. It harms us if we don't take them seriously. It's damaging to us as as humans need that, you know, look at cave paintings. We've always been doing it. It's really part of us.

• 17:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  And we connect with it. We communicate with it. Our emotions are triggered by it. It's really, and making it, you know, is such a, like, I I used to volunteer at a place where a lot of the people I drew with were struggling, suffering with Alzheimer's. And, you know, I'd sit down and it was every Wednesday afternoon in Kingston. And we had, we had a good laugh, but a lot of them said, oh, I can't draw. And I said, well, you can, you just don't draw like anyone else.

• 17:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Right? But you can draw. Well, not really. I mean, well, yeah, you can. But I dare you to just make a mark then, anything. And that's, that'll be your drawing. So like, I was there for a year and a half or so. And, and one of the things I discovered was most of them, when they're about eight or nine, had been told they weren't very good.

• 18:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  And so beforehand, you, you've asked a whole class, can you draw? They all put a hands. Yeah, I can. And at some point, either they compare themselves or themselves, or they're told, they remove themselves from that process of making messy drawings until they're eighty and someone says, have we got another go? And then they rediscover it again. So this huge, huge chasm between being six and eighty six, which they could have just, you know.

• 18:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, do it because you enjoy it. Forget what it looks like. My parents are retired now and my mum's not arty at all. But my, as I said, like, my dad's really skilled. And they've joined a local art club and she had that sort of barrier of, oh, I don't, I don't draw.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:51Fearne Cotton?

  And she's got so into painting. She's found her style. She's found the things she likes painting, like pop art kind of stuff.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 18:58Fearne Cotton?

  And she's getting so much from it. And I think the more we can encourage everybody just to do a little something is, it's just, it's heaven.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  It's heaven.

• 19:07Fearne Cotton?

  It is heaven.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  And also I think you, you go, they go into, you go into another world. Sometimes I'll start and it's eleven in the morning and then suddenly it's three forty, four o'clock and I think it's only an hour and they, these guys were the same and or they would, you know, after a few sessions, they'd, they'd start looking at each others and then chatting and then laughing and go, my crap, isn't it? And then, but it brought them all together and they didn't know each other to begin with. And by the end of it, you know, I think the, the making of it is quite a vulnerable thing to make up because you're sort of, you're, you're up for judgment by yourself and others, you know, it's like a, but once you get beyond that and, and cease to care.

• 19:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  And just have a laugh with it.

• 19:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Make a mess. And one, one session I remember saying, do you remember what it was like when you were five? Can you remember it when you were making a mess on paper? And they were like, mm, vaguely. Well, let's all just pretend we're five.

• 19:58Fearne Cotton?

  Mm.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  And make the mess and be proud of your mess because every five year old goes, look what I've done.

• 20:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  But, you know, they're pleased with it, right?

• 20:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Your kids, I guarantee you.

• 20:09Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my kids love drawing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, I have to slightly convince them now they're a bit older because they, everyone wants to be on a screen. That's the other beauty of having a bit of paper and some paint or pens is you're off a screen. Like anything off a screen is going to benefit us.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely.

• 20:24Fearne Cotton?

  It's got to be done. Hey, I want to get into this new book, which I was so lucky to get a copy of Always Remember.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  You don't have to, but we don't have to talk about the new book.

• 20:33Fearne Cotton?

  I want to talk about the new book. I want to get into specifics because I sat looking at this book for probably an hour, not only just admiring the beautiful, moving drawings. Like, how do you make the sun look like it's glowing like that? I don't understand. It's just so beautiful. But there's some things I want to specifically pull out. Pictures that really, I mean, there's one, actually I haven't marked it, where it's the boy stood in a big forest saying, was it my fault that killed me? Oh my God.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. You see, that's been my feeling most of my life, I think, is somewhere deep within me. Most of the time is, yeah, I'm in trouble somewhere. It's my fault.

• 21:11Fearne Cotton?

  I have that.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Do you have that?

• 21:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. I constantly think I'm in trouble or I'm.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Travel someone, with someone.

• 21:16Fearne Cotton?

  With someone. I hate it.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:18Fearne Cotton?

  I can't bear it. And it makes me not like authority because it's like, oh, someone else to tell me off, like give me rules. I don't like it. But that one really hit me. There it is. Oh my God. Was it my fault? It's crazy how like a picture and four words can make you. It just stopped you in your tracks.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 21:33Fearne Cotton?

  And it's, you know, it's a simple drawing.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 21:35Fearne Cotton?

  But it is packed with all the emotion. It's crazy. I love that one. That one hit me hard.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  I mean, that, I, I like the, you like that one. I mean, it's the one, it's, for me, it's the ground zero of the book. Is that where, you know, like the boy's journey, which is mine, has been always, you know, felt quite fearful and always worried ultimately that he's going to be alone or abandon or lose his connections. And that happens. And then the first thing, his immediate response is, oh, well, it must be something I said or something I did. Or, you know, I, this is my fault. And then, of course, he then faces either his own, there's a, there's a weasel, which either you can interpret that how you want. Says, you know, oh, so you ended up alone.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Well, that was careless and they, you sure they love you? You know, would they have left you if they loved you?

• 22:31Fearne Cotton?

  So he's the little niggling voice we all have in our heads.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Saying, you know, you did that, didn't you? If only you'd been a bit funnier, prettier, cleverer, something, you know, you, you, you know, this is your, this is your doing. But what I tried to do was show that the things he'd learned from his friends. Um, because before they, he loses them, you know, the horse says, when the storm comes, just remember who you are. And he says, well, who am I? And the horse says, well, you know, you're loved. That's who you are. And so he has, his identity becomes relational, that he's connected to them. And, and so when the storm comes, he, so he then makes, when the next one, when the weasel, he turns away and goes, I know

• 23:17Speaker 02

  that my mind can play tricks on me, which our minds do.

• 23:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  And it can tell me that everything's hopeless, that, you know, it, it just, he just spirals down or remembers how it feels. He's, he's, this is going on now, this is how, but I need to remember who I am.

• 23:32Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  So he makes that choice. Okay, this is going on, but wait a second.

• 23:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  I know, I, I, I need to remember this.

• 23:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  I, in it, so always the, you know, that I'm, I'm important, I'm loved. And so he chooses. To remember his identity being loved and then he can carry on and chooses to love himself to do and eventually he reconnects with the others. But for me, you know, when I was doing the book and it was made, every time I seem to, well, the two times I've made a book, it's been really tough. Like, you know, I lose a dog always, it seems. I lose someone, someone dies, you know, and then there's all manner of weird, I, I, a load of drawings are stolen out of my car.

• 24:11Fearne Cotton?

  What?

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so if things just went on and on, it's like relentless. But, but why am I saying this? Because I suppose I kind of always feel making a book that even when it's difficult, that you've got to just say these things, get them out there, even if they're imperfect, even if a lot of people don't even like them, someone might.

• 24:33Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Do you see what I'm saying?

• 24:34Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, like, lots of people love your work, like.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, you know, for me, when making the second book was, do, do we need to make a second book? Is because I wouldn't just do it.

• 24:43Fearne Cotton?

  For the sake of it.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  For the hell of it, no, I guess like, come on, you know. But a lot of those drawings are made in, during the pandemic, during lockdown. And I always felt, you know, well, that's fine. If we find a home for them, if there's a narrative that seems to be coming through, then, you know, sew them together.

• 25:01Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, there's always something to say because life, like you just said, constantly chucks challenges our way for us to dig a bit deeper, find out more about ourselves.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:10Fearne Cotton?

  And, you know, it's endless until we die. I don't think there's ever a point where we go, oh, and now I'm complete and I've worked out how life works and no more stress for me.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 25:18Fearne Cotton?

  You know, it's just constant. So this question, I find such an interesting one.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:23Fearne Cotton?

  Although it's a simple question, it's so loaded because in our own life stories, we can sit there and ponder this and I guess we need to land somewhere in the middle in most situations because I can look at parts of my life where things have gone so wrong. And I've ended up just going, how have I ended up here? What, what is going on here? Part of our ego, whatever wants to go, it's their fault, it's them.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:49Fearne Cotton?

  I'm going to point the finger. The other part is doing this, like, oh, my God, it's all me. I must be a terribly flawed person. To have ended up in this situation.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:57Fearne Cotton?

  Or we can just go, hmm, bad luck. And at some point, I think we hopefully land, and I certainly have, it's a bit of everything.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:06Fearne Cotton?

  Like, you end up in a shit situation because you've made some bad choices, maybe.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:10Fearne Cotton?

  And equally, you know, you can learn lessons from them, but also there are other people where there might be, you know, injustice or things.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:18Fearne Cotton?

  Aren't fair, they're just not fair. And it's such a hard one to have absolute clarity on, like, what portion was me and what portion was out of my control. And it's not necessarily healthy, I guess, to land completely in one camp or the other.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  No, and I think the problem is that every human is so completely unique and every situation, every day is completely unique. So we're dealing with so much uniqueness.

• 26:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  You and I will never experience the same thing.

• 26:46Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  But in the same breath, there are kind of common denominators that, like, I think generally speaking, you know, I'm a great one for for looking to blame, whether it's me or someone else. But I think in the end, blame doesn't really.

• 26:59Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Achieve a great deal, I've learnt. Because at some point you have to let it go, either yourself, forgive yourself or others and walk free of things. And when you've processed it, I think to do it, you know, too readily means you're almost in denial of the emotion that goes with the damage.

• 27:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  And so you you tend to be in denial at things, you try to shut it off, which is a mistake. I think it's it's very important if if bad things have been done to say them.

• 27:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  But in the end, once you've processed all that, to let it go means that you're not continually drinking from the same cup of toxin.

• 27:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  That that only damages yourself.

• 27:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think self forgiveness is maybe harder than.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  I think that's right. I I I think that's right. I think for me, definitely. Um, God, Charlie, you know, and then I I'd go go over the same thing.

• 27:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, same.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  Why did I, you know, and in the end. You know, you just go, okay, let it go, you know.

• 28:00Fearne Cotton?

  You have to, you have to to get any sense of peace, you know, we're in, we're in control of that. Some other pages I'd love to look at, um, one of them is, I don't think even the river knows where it's going until it reaches the sea, which I just, I love the picture, I love the sentiment. Because I think that helps you let go, go, oh yeah, like, no one really has a clue what, what we're doing.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  We haven't got a first idea.

• 28:21Fearne Cotton?

  We all look at everyone else and go, oh, they've got their shit together, you know what they're doing, they're aiming for this one point and they're nailing it. And I'm floundering going, what the fuck am I doing? No one knows.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  I remember being in some library somewhere when I was little, reading, I think it was Victor Hugo or someone, very clever person had written a statement saying, man is set out at great pace to go nowhere, thinking, that's quite depressing.

• 28:45Fearne Cotton?

  Or free, I don't know.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  For nowhere, but I think we are going somewhere, but I, so I kind of disagree with them, but the same, but there was something about it. Made me think, yeah, we are all just, you know, going crazy.

• 28:56Fearne Cotton?

  Rushing to nowhere.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Rushing everywhere.

• 28:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  And then we get to the end of it and like, what was that all about? What were we doing? Like, bumping into each other and getting on the tube, whatever we are. And, and I think that joy, I think was, was a way to say, because I remember thinking, you know, the wisest people I know, and, and there have been many that I've been in awe of, have always said to me, you know, we're just, just, we're winging it, but just wing it in the most loving way possible.

• 29:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Whether it's yourself or others and just, but know that we don't really know where it's going to end, we know, but until you get there.

• 29:40Fearne Cotton?

  Haven't got a clue.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Haven't got a flipping clue.

• 29:42Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  And that's kind of wonderful that we're all, I mean, some people think they know.

• 29:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Or they have very clear agendas, that life has a habit of tripping up those agendas or.

• 29:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean?

• 29:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, I thought when I was a kid, I was like, well, I'm going to be a TV presenter and I'm just gonna.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Did you think that, did you?

• 30:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And I was like, and I'm just going to work so hard that one day I become Ant and Dec and then everything's great. And I was doing that and I was doing all these big TV shows, blah, blah. And then everything fucking fell apart. And I had this like big life crisis and then I was like. Well, I don't know who I am if I'm not that and if I'm not on that path.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  What are you?

• 30:18Fearne Cotton?

  Luckily gone off on a great tangent. I don't have a clue where it's ending up. I've got no idea how this continues changing or evolving. But I'm happily in it. And I think that was the biggest lesson for me is not pinning everything to one outcome.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 30:35Fearne Cotton?

  Which, you know, I think most of us do when we're small, you know, and we're teenagers in our twenties. We think, you know, get the job or get married or whatever it is that these milestones were meant to achieve. And then we'll be okay. And I learned that one the hard way. Like, that is, that is gonna bring you nothing. You could get, you could be Ant and Dec and still feel like shit.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  You're using Ant and Dec.

• 30:57Fearne Cotton?

  Poor Ant and Dec.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  I love them. I do love them.

• 31:00Fearne Cotton?

  I love them. They're the best.

• 31:04Speaker 05

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• 31:35Speaker 07

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel. And Maisy Adams. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yeah. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 31:58Speaker 07

  You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 32:08Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, this picture, first of all, this picture is so stunning. Again, how you've captured the light and the snow falling. I sort of feel chilled looking at it. It's just so wintery and gorgeous. And then on this page, you've put with a beautiful picture of the horse, the boy and the mole and the fox. You will have critics, said the horse. Try not to be one of them. That again, like hit me between the eyes because we are living in the noisiest time at the moment. There's, there's no more critics than there have ever been, but we hear of them more because of how we imbibe social media and the news. And it just seems like everyone's critiquing everybody or hurling abuse at everybody else.

• 32:50Fearne Cotton?

  It, it feels, everything feels like spiky and, and raw at the moment. But also I think in turn, because we're, that's so normalized, this level of criticism constantly, that we're actually criticizing ourselves more than we ever have because, because of that normalization. How, how do you feel about that topic?

• 33:09Speaker 02

  It's a big topic.

• 33:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  I, I think a lot of criticism comes from, from fear.

• 33:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  We're terrified.

• 33:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  So we're lashing out.

• 33:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  At the most different thing we can find to ourselves and blaming it.

• 33:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  And we do it to ourselves. I think it's just, and it's everywhere right now in a terrifying, you know, it's everything, everything is becoming.

• 33:29Fearne Cotton?

  Polarized.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Polarized.

• 33:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  And I think to recognize that, you know, in myself, when I criticize things, if I really examine it and go, why are you doing this? Like I work, I work with an Irish guy called Colum on the books and we, we get the book to a place where we can just send it off and it's printed. He's, and he's a very softly spoken, gentle Irish person, very, really something. And he would often say, you know, when, when someone's been criticized, you would just, just examine who that person really is. Like, why are they being the way they are? What happened to them to cause them to be that way?

• 34:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  So he's always trying to, trying to look at that person and then say, you know, and he, and he also has this other brilliant thing, which I love when something happens, you know, and making the book.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Every time we do something, it happens every single day, whether it's the scanner exploding, all my house lights go, everything, there's always terrible things. He, when I go, I can't believe this, he would, you know, someone said this or whatever. He just says, all you have to do is just say, is that so?

• 34:34Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Is that so?

• 34:36Fearne Cotton?

  I like that.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Just, just, just, just let it be for a second.

• 34:39Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Breathe. And I do that these days.

• 34:43Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  I go, yeah, is that so? Okay. Just, just let it sit for a while and breathe and then, and remember that things come from broken places. And if you can see that, you'll blame less, criticize less, and you'll criticize yourself less because everyone is struggling with something, but we just can't see it. And I think these, well, these right, these big protests and these angry people and, you know, you, you, you can see why they're angry in various ways, but ultimately, you know, if we try and understand each other a bit more, I think that's why it's so important to disagree well, to have conversations that, that are not just, I hate you because you think differently, is to try and understand why.

• 35:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  We're hating each other.

• 35:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Um, it's so important if this world's gonna coexist.

• 35:36Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, I know, but like you say, so much of it, possibly all of it, comes from fear.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  It's a fit of fear. What are you gonna do to me?

• 35:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And it's so interesting, that lovely phrase you've just used, is that so?

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 35:49Fearne Cotton?

  You know, the, the opposite of that is what we, we all do, which is we're incredibly reactionary because we're like, I want it fixed now. Like, we're, we're, we're the generation that, we want this fixed, it needs to be sorted. This is broken, I will fix it. Whereas actually, like you've just said, some amazing beauty comes from brokenness and things being a bit off. But we're just so not used to letting ourselves sit in that.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. But often the answer lies in somewhere completely different. I remember when, when, all the stress of making the first bit, actually, one of the weird things that happened was that I had a disc slipped out of my lower back.

• 36:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, crikey.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  So I couldn't, I couldn't sit like this.

• 36:24Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  At all, for a year, right? So just before everything locked down, I went to see a back guy. And I was in agony, I said, I can't sit down, it hurts, and I'm, and he listened to me. And so I was, I was hoping he'd say, right, lie down and I'm gonna inject you and I'm gonna take the pain away. He just said, you're a very shallow little breather, aren't you?

• 36:44Fearne Cotton?

  What?

• 36:48Speaker 02

  And I said, why do you say that? He says, just your posture and your breathing. I think we should look at that. How you're moving, how you're living, why are you breathing? Why are you frightened of something? He says, I suggest you learn how to breathe first. And I was so cross initially, because I felt he was criticizing my breathing, but I was because he wasn't gonna give me.

• 37:12Fearne Cotton?

  Fix my back.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  He said, but I can't fix, you can, you can do this.

• 37:16Fearne Cotton?

  Whoa.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  So he said, I'm, he said, you know, he said, come back in a month, which I couldn't because couldn't go anywhere in a month's time. But he said, I'm gonna give you a list of, of things you need to do, breathing and stretches. And I want you to, you know, really dig deep into your posture, to do all these things. And it worked.

• 37:37Fearne Cotton?

  No way.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it took months. I mean, it wasn't instant.

• 37:41Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  But it was interesting that he didn't, he didn't respond to my desire for him to fix me. Because that's what I wanted.

• 37:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we want everybody to fix.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Fix me now. You know, and that Coldplay song.

• 37:56Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly, just fix me. Please, Chris Martin, fix me.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I've always remembered that, his, his statement, you're very shallow little breather.

• 38:06Fearne Cotton?

  The breathing thing's so interesting. I mean, when we do our Happy Place Festival, we have, you know, countless brilliant teachers telling us about, you know, and it's again and again, I have to be re-reminded, breathe, because I will hold my breath at the top when I'm anticipating something or I'm nervous. And I'm like, have I taken an, like exhale in a minute? I don't think I have. I think I've just been holding my breath, like at the top. It's all hitting, like I'm trying to freeze time to spend the thing that's gonna happen, which I obviously can't do. It's, it, I think breathing shows us so much about ourselves.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  But it's also an action.

• 38:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Because again, in the book, the boy says, because the boy's in a, he goes into when he, he ends up in a panic, saying, I can't see a way through. The horse says, can you see your next step? Because yeah, well, just take that then. And then it's what happens if I'm frightened of my next step? And the horse says, breathe, that's, that's your next step. So it's actually, the act of breathing is a very positive action.

• 38:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Rather than, you know, where do I need to go? Or who do I need to ring up? Or just be where you are. You can do that four seconds in, hold four seconds out, do that two minutes. And then see how differently you see yourself in the world.

• 39:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, just stopping for a second.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Just stop for a second.

• 39:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we're not good at that. I mean, I'm shit at that.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  The twist is, you know, I made that book, but I'm, I'm clueless.

• 39:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I've written a hundred million books about helping yourself. I'm a fucking mess, like constantly. I haven't got a clue. That's why we write them, because we're in it.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  We're trying to speak from that place.

• 39:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. I'm constantly in that place. That's why I've always got more things to say, more things to write. Yeah. Um, I mean, this leads on from what we've just talked about, but, but this picture, the boy and the fox, often the best answer is just to listen.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:48Fearne Cotton?

  Um, because we're living in such a noisy time.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:53Fearne Cotton?

  Sometimes it feels confusing as to like, who, who am I listening to? And who should I listen to? How do you get that clarity yourself?

• 40:01Speaker 02

  So many voices.

• 40:02Fearne Cotton?

  So many.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  I, I think I'm a real scroller and I tend to go down these rabbit holes.

• 40:07Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  You know, and then the algorithm catches you and you go down and it's pounding with these concepts. And I think I, I no longer made the decision that I had to stop doing that. Otherwise, it, it pulls you to one side of things. You're no longer really listening to yourself. You're not in real dialogue with anyone. You're just passively imbibing endless.

• 40:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Stuff that's not doing you any good and it's giving you a very unbalanced view of things.

• 40:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  And so I, for me, I just thought, I, I, you know, I've got to stop. And then, you know, choose if there is a moment where I, you know, where I'm going to start doing that, I I put it down and try and read a book or go for a walk or do a drawing or have a cup of tea or phone a friend or do anything that that takes me out of that place. So I can listen in a way that's because we this is new to us and humans haven't been doing this, you know, until very recently. We've just been in amongst other humans chatting and listening and

• 41:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  But I think more than that, I think is that we want, even though we're listening, we all want to be heard. And yet, and and and some sometimes people find that they're being heard by commenting online. But really, you're not being heard or seen. You're just, you're just, it disappears into

• 41:25Fearne Cotton?

  Shouting into the void.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Into the ether, you know. So I I think talking honestly with who who are close to is the healthiest thing. And that can them listening to you is an answer in itself. What we're looking for more than the actual answers are just being heard.

• 41:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Right. So so you feel that like talking to you or talking to to friends or, you know, it it's such a a great answer to, you know, and the boy then says, you know, I've got so many questions. And the mole says, well, Kate gives you the answer. And then and then the horse says, sometimes I feel we don't have the answers. And the boy says, well, no, you're with me. That's the answer. The idea is is we've got to keep forging visceral real friendships rather than ones where we look for answers online because I don't think the answers are there.

• 42:17Fearne Cotton?

  No, they're not. And I think your, you know, your book sales prove that point, you know, ye- yes, we're all obsessed with these screens. But actually, we deeply want the simplicity of looking in a book and feeling connection and feeling our feelings because we're so often like numbing ourselves with our phones, food, shopping, whatever it is, we just don't want to feel anything. And actually, you know, this book has traveled, your first book has traveled around the globe, you know, it's reached far flung corners. I'm sure you had never anticipated because people do want that simplicity. They do just want connection.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  It's really, it yeah, I mean, it's if that if the book has done even a fraction of that, it's it still moves me. I got it. I got an email this morning from someone who found a book in a far flung little tiny bookshop in the outback of Australia. It moves me so much that you can make silly marks on paper that formulate into a book that then ends up in the hands of someone and it then helps them dare to be brave to say, this is what I'm feeling. And I find that like the craziest thing in the world. And sometimes, you know, when I get critics, of course, you know, who's, you can't please everyone, but a lot of people are gonna hate the books and fine, you know, good on you. But I just find.

• 43:32Fearne Cotton?

  Good on you.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  But, but you know, the thing is though, is I just have to remember the 18 year olds who chose not to take his life, or the old lady whose granddaughter told her she was enough just as she was. Whoever it is, I can't keep these little emails in my phone to look back at and think, because sometimes I think, you know, the whole, the whole journey, you know, I don't really talk about it very much, but you know, beyond making the book has been all the stuff that goes on around it. Some of it's been pretty grim, but some of it's been truly beautiful. And, you know, a million emails in the last six years and 10% of those are some of the most heartbreakingly moving things I'll ever read.

• 44:13Fearne Cotton?

  I bet.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  And, and it's, I just feel so kind of privileged and grateful and overwhelmed by it. Why am I saying all this? Don't know.

• 44:22Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I just, I think it's to, it's to counter all the shitty noise that we know is out there and the screen addiction is like, we just wanna feel connected to other people.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, connection.

• 44:33Fearne Cotton?

  And, and you know, we've all got so much more in common than we care to believe in terms of all the basics, like feeling sorrow, grief, heartbreak, like you're not enough, being terrified about everything, you know. We, we've all got that and yet we're not connecting. And, and often it is, pain is, is a really beautiful way to connect with someone. And, you know, and often things that we're so scared to say out loud, things that have happened in our past, or things that are ruminating in our minds constantly, they're the bits that are gonna connect you, not the shiny version.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely right, 100%.

• 45:09Fearne Cotton?

  You wanna put yourself out there like, oh, I'm all shiny and perfect. Let's connect. It's like, oh, God, no, you know, you wanna.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  It doesn't work.

• 45:15Fearne Cotton?

  No, it doesn't.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  But I think shame is the very thing that prevents us daring to be vulnerable.

• 45:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  And yet, that daring then opens up this window into the whole universe of connection and beauty and connection that we so try to get by being shiny and perfect, which wasn't working.

• 45:32Fearne Cotton?

  No, do you know what the shame thing I'm fascinated about? I'm writing a book at the moment and I've done a deep dive, I've gone off on a tangent about shame because it seems so important in the context of this conversation, the book that I'm writing about, is that it silences you, it stops you, it makes you a mobile. You know, I had a big period of it and I'm still so impacted by it. And I thought, oh, when I was writing, I was like, I've got something to say on Instagram that feels like worth writing about. So I wrote this piece about shame and then someone shamed me in the comments and I shut down and I deleted it and I panicked.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do, you react and shut down.

• 46:08Fearne Cotton?

  I couldn't, I couldn't have it. And I was like, oh my God, but I'm writing about it and I still can't confront it. And then I went back to my book and I wrote exactly how I was feeling in the moment, which was sort of physically ill, like I wanted to jump out my skin, but equally I wanted to like stare shame in the face and like see who blinks first. Like it was just so overpowering, this feeling of shame. But it certainly made me take the post down. I was like, I don't, I need to hide. I don't want to be seen or heard or whatever. And like you've just said, if you can move through shame, if you can get past it, that's where you do something extraordinary, different, game changing for yourself, for others, but it's fucking hard to get through it.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  That's terrifying.

• 46:50Fearne Cotton?

  Terrifying.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  And I so related to it and the number of posts I immediately do because there's one comment.

• 46:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  You know, I bet for every one negative you get.

• 47:00Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I had loads of people saying, put the post back. I really liked it.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Where's it gone, where's it gone?

• 47:03Fearne Cotton?

  I know, I was like, I can't, I'm still in it, you know, I still feel it. And that led to me having a really interesting conversation with a friend of mine who, you know, I know that he's had his problems and he's been relatively vocal about it, but he was like, shame brings me down almost every day still. And he was saying, you know, he'll even have an interaction with like the post lady and then spiral into shame afterwards because he said something a bit weird or whatever. And I was like, oh my God, you think you're the only person?

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:30Fearne Cotton?

  But we're all dealing with it, we're all dealing with it.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And like after a thing like this, which I, I mean, you know, I'm loving this conversation, but I guarantee when I leave, I go, oh God, why did he say that?

• 47:41Fearne Cotton?

  Oh yeah, I do it every time.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  What are you doing? What? Banging on about this, no one wants to hear that.

• 47:48Fearne Cotton?

  We do, that's why you're here.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Bang, bang, you know, it's terrible.

• 47:51Fearne Cotton?

  Every time I've been on this morning or Lorraine, I'm like in a puddle of absolute, like I'm mortified afterwards.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  But I think shame, I remember reading somewhere, some, well, someone said it, I can't remember where, where there was two types of shame. And one is the toxic shame which remains in you for no apparent reason, just the fact that you have it and it sits there. And the other one is you feel ashamed of something you've done. And the, the second one is easier to deal with.

• 48:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  You go, that was stupid, say sorry. And it's such, but there's a, this is other weird shame that hangs in you.

• 48:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Just because you exist.

• 48:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  What?

• 48:28Fearne Cotton?

  It's mad.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Right?

• 48:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And more of us feel like that than I think we care to believe, which is helpful because shame doesn't want us to know that other people feel like that.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  No, no, it's just you.

• 48:39Fearne Cotton?

  Just you.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Was it my fault?

• 48:40Fearne Cotton?

  You're the problem. Yeah, was it my fault? Yeah. I know, it's mind blowing.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the, the moment you start talking, I did a drawing years ago, I think, and it was in a police cell somewhere. I put, and I took that one down because I think it was worded right, but I said something like shame keeps you silent. But there's no shame in talking or asking for help. It was something like that. And the words hadn't, but you know, I remember someone saying, oh, you know, shame has its uses and I took it, took it down. But I think the moment you start talking about it is the moment people engage with it and oh, I'm not alone then.

• 49:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  And I think it's, it's the feeling of it's just you, there's a deeply lonely feeling that, that by the moment we go, oh, you do that as well? You feel that? Oh my God, me too. Okay. So, so there's hope then because actually this is, this is a universal issue.

• 49:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's human condition.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  It's a human condition. And how do we get free from this? How do we walk freely? And I think it's conversation, connection, vulnerability, telling the truth. You do it in the right place, but daring to believe you'll be loved more for it.

• 49:51Speaker 03

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• 50:51Speaker 07

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel. And Maisy Adam. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yeah. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and talk in, baby.

• 51:24Fearne Cotton?

  I think there's something extra special about you being a man doing this because we still know that there is a huge mental health crisis for men.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Men, yeah, yeah.

• 51:32Fearne Cotton?

  And the outcome is disproportionately awful compared to women.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  It kills more men than anything else.

• 51:37Fearne Cotton?

  With suicide, it's horrendous. And I think for men to see, for other men to see you being vulnerable and writing about feelings is powerful.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  I mean, that's a lovely thing to say. I mean, essentially, the four characters are part of me. And I remember engaging with these different sides of me and then putting them into the world, not really fully realising at the time, you know. And I started to address things. And I remember, I remember years ago. Doing this, I thought I'd do a show of drawings in some gallery, right? So I hired this space and thought maybe my mum would come, my sister and my friend. And like ten thousand people came in five days.

• 52:16Fearne Cotton?

  Holy shit.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was completely, it was nuts, it was insane, right? And so I was, I was sort of leaning against the wall and going, hi, and nice to see you. And but I remember, I remember some of the people who were there, particularly the men. And I remember one girl bringing, sort of pulling her enormous looking boyfriend in to me. And he just was standing, looking at me and she said, go on, say something to, to her boyfriend, to me. And I, I said, he doesn't need to say anything, you know? He was just, and he was kind of tongue tied and then his eyes welled up. And we just looked at each other. And, and she was looking at him.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  And then I, I just thought, right, I'm just gonna ask. So we just had a hug and he was, we had this long hug and he started sobbing. And then he just, he just pulled himself together and turned around and walked out.

• 53:13Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  And I, I never knew what his story was. And I've heard from a lot of men since who have been on the edge of things.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Who have realised that it is a courageous thing to dare to show your weakness, to say help to. These things are not failings, they're, they're courageous things. Cause, cause it's choosing life, it's choosing you over, over not, of being here as opposed to not being here.

• 53:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  And sometimes an exit seems the easier option. And therefore it's braver to fight for your own life, braver to. And I, I think for me, the men, the men that I've heard from and still continue to do so. Have always said, you know, I, I, I've never known quite how to verbalise what I really feel. And I have a good, I put on a good show, I'm, I do these, this, this, this, nobody knows what I'm feeling.

• 54:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  And, you know, they, you know, my, if, if you, I did a drawing the other night, actually, of this crazy, messy wood. And it's wild and completely scrawly and, and the male says to the boy, you know. Um. You feel your feelings look like this, but all we see is this and it's a leaf.

• 54:32Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Little leaf just falling. So th- there's this disparity between what's going on inside of you, which is all all kinds of stuff. And then you show us this. And at some point, you're gonna have to, for your freedom, talk about this.

• 54:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Get get it out.

• 54:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Just whoever it is, doesn't really matter, or it does matter, but just do it. And I think that's been the journey for me is hearing from all kinds of people, but particularly locked, quite locked in men who've lived a life and then they they're struggling to carry on doing that because of this thing in them. And they try to medicate it with whatever it is. And there are many ways of medicating that kind of thing. Um. But when they say, I dare to say, look at this insane wood.

• 55:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Look at this. This is, this is what's going on.

• 55:25Fearne Cotton?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  And unpick one branch at a time, take, make that journey.

• 55:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Um. Has been, you know, I, you know, it's very moving to read their stories and to recognize that, you know, we're all to a greater or lesser extent. That's us, isn't it?

• 55:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yep, exactly that.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  And it's just for me, I've lost plenty of friends who've who are not here because they for whatever reason have chosen not to be. And I think about them often and wonder, you know, you do, don't you go, what if we'd said this or could we have got them to do that?

• 56:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  But I think doing this, what you and I are doing, talking honestly and saying, this is, this is me, this is me. And you're, you know, and believing that shame locks you in. But if you dared to to be vulnerable, you have this this, oh, my gosh, huge vista to walk in.

• 56:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Of honesty.

• 56:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  And and you do this, you feel this? Okay.

• 56:27Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Okay, and they, you know.

• 56:28Fearne Cotton?

  And you think other people are gonna go, oh, my God, I'm never gonna talk to you again. You are awful. And they don't. They do the opposite. And I learned that ti- I did it recently where I was like. Someone I didn't know as well and there was things that were sort of plaguing me mentally. And then I was like, one day, I just need to tell you some stuff about myself because I'm feeling like I'm just like living a lie, like being an actor. And of course, everything I said was met with kindness, compassion, love. And it's, you know, we have to remind ourselves that, you know, most great people will respond with grace and care. They're not gonna shun you and ostracize you. That's not, not the case.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  I had a, I had a brilliant, brilliant therapist. He was actually an ex Franciscan monk, I think. But he was like, he had, he had honestly the brain the size of the house and such a kindness to him. And I went to see him once a week in the West End of London somewhere. And, and when we were talking about this stuff, and I genuinely, having spoken about various things, would then feel like I was a foot off the ground when I left the room. And we were talking about it and I said, this is your job and you listen to this crap every day. And he said, he said something, I've always remembered it and I think about it a lot. He said, when someone tells you the truth of themselves, what they're going through, whatever it is,

• 57:51Speaker 02

  receive it like they're giving you gold. It's gold. They're being brave and don't judge them for it. Just, just, just say thank you. That was a, that's, that's flipping treasure to me. But I think we're frightened that we're not, we think we're giving a turd. Do you know what I mean? We're frightened. We think if I say this, you know, they're gonna hate me.

• 58:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's the opposite.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but if, if you receive it with kindness and, and like, wow, you dared to say that.

• 58:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  It's beautiful.

• 58:23Fearne Cotton?

  It is, it's a lovely thing.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  And then, and then there's a sort of freedom in it.

• 58:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's amazing. One message that got a lot of commentary about it on your Instagram was when you were hiding in the loos at the Oscars.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  All the time, I agree. I was hiding in the loo here for a little while. Mate, it's the first question I got here is where's the loo?

• 58:43Fearne Cotton?

  Just deep breathe in the toilet.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  I was gonna say.

• 58:45Fearne Cotton?

  But the fact that you'd written it on a bit of toilet paper, it was just so perfect. I mean, was that an utterly terrifying experience? I mean, you won an Oscar, so it's obviously celebratory too, but terrifying.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  It was completely terrifying. And I was in those loos a lot in Hollywood.

• 59:04Fearne Cotton?

  This is so great.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I remember writing that on this, on a bar, I thought I was gonna tear the loo papers.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I, for me, I do, I, you know, I have this moment where I go, oh god, I can't do this. What am I gonna say? I'm gonna say something terrible. Or, you know, why am I even here? And I hide. But I think of friends and think of my mum, various people have said, just remember, you know, just be yourself, just, just tell the truth.

• 59:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  It's much more interesting than pretending anything.

• 59:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  To say, you know.

• 59:42Fearne Cotton?

  I think I always love when a British person wins an Oscar, because it kind of cuts through the bullshit. There's just like a moment of, oh, a British person, they're gonna say something sort of a bit funny and off the beaten track. And it just sort of like grounds everyone.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  I can't remember what I said, to be honest, but, but I do, like, after them, you know, what, what happens is, you know, you then wheel the round place and you're shunted between, in front of various cameras. And I find myself saying, you know, like, the question was so, how do you find Hollywood? And I find myself coming up with the same thing. And I remember saying, oh, you, you don't do it justice. And they're like, what do you mean? I said, well, it, it's not glamorous, it's better than that. I said, because the conversation I've had here, like, at the, the, the nominee's lunch, sitting next to people from, you know, El Quart on the Western Front, some guy and another guy from, you know, they were all.

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  It began with, hey, so who are you? And then within five minutes, everyone's saying, yeah, well, my, my wife, you know, you know, she's going through it, or my son does. And everybody was sharing this, this journey they were all on. And making the film had been some kind of nightmare in some way. And the, the vulnerability levels in that place were just unbelievable.

• 1:01:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, people wouldn't expect that.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  No, you think you're going to this sparring, oh, I'm cool and you're cool and who, you're gonna win. And I didn't find that. And I said, what a shame that in many ways, you're just kind of so fixed on showing the glamour, which is clearly present and great, but what about saying?

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  How brave this is. Making a film is courageous. Like, all these people have real lives. How did you even get that? You know, you, what?

• 1:01:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:01:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, just finding out who the humans are behind it all. What a cool opportunity to do that.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  But they didn't like it, you know, because they were, I've never seen people with so much makeup.

• 1:01:40Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  It was this, this, when these men were like, this is hilarious. And I was like, wow, that's a lot. But then you look at the screen and they actually look quite good.

• 1:01:48Fearne Cotton?

  Quite normal, exactly.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  And they look at me and I'm all blotchy and sweaty and red. Oh, God, yeah, I could see why. But in the end, you know, I kind of loved it for that because I did meet some of those guys, you know, just not what you thought they were gonna be.

• 1:02:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's so cool.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I loved it for that.

• 1:02:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. And obviously, like, what a moment with an Oscar. It's just, where is the Oscar?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  It's just, it's just sitting there with some coffee mug.

• 1:02:15Fearne Cotton?

  Is it? Brilliant.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  And it's quite heavy. Sometimes do workouts.

• 1:02:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Oscar was though, you know, it's not why you do things.

• 1:02:25Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  And I didn't, and the same with selling books. It's not the why. I ever dreamt of selling out to make a book was to see how many we could sell. It was always, you know, like, I remember feeling, there are these moments in your life where you go, that's why I did this. Or, you know, and you hear from someone, like, the first book selling I ever did was at Cheltenham Literary Festival. And I was sweaty and awkward and, you know, people were saying huge things and, you know, I, I don't know. I just felt like, really? Okay. And then there was a, there was a certain eighteen, nineteen year old lad at the back of the queue who'd been standing there for an hour. And he shuffled forward and looked at me.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  And he didn't have a book. And I said, can I give you a book? He said, no, I, I don't want you to sign anything. I went, okay. And then he looked awkwardly. And people were leaving. The, the room was pretty empty, but. And I said, you know, you okay? And he said, yeah. And then, again, trying to, he was trying to find.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  Words that, you know, and then he just said, I just want you to know that I I decided to stay.

• 1:03:35Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  And I said to him, what you mean in the queue, you know, that was my reaction was, and I went, oh, and then half a second, two seconds, you go. I said, you, okay, he said, yeah, yeah, I I am, you know, I I realized it was a braver thing to do. So, thank you. And he had these tears starting to go down his face and I thought, oh, God. And I looked at him and thought, okay, so all of this for just this guy, I'll take that. That's it, that's it. I don't care about what's good, I don't care about whatever it is, is this one human decided to stay here. I do it all again.

• 1:04:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  And I really mean that. And so for me, you know, that's like everything.

• 1:04:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's amazing, it's amazing, it's just mind-blowingly incredible.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  But for you're doing it, we're all at it in different ways, trying to connect, trying to give it well.

• 1:04:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  See what we, you know, how we can encourage each other to be more connected.

• 1:04:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's what it's all about.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Basically.

• 1:04:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's that simple.

• 1:04:43Speaker 02

  It is that simple and to love ourselves and each other and and, you know, stay.

• 1:04:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Before we round things up, I would love to know, where is your happy place, Charlie?

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  It's a really good question. I'm quite like, I'm one of those people that's quite an introvert that loves people.

• 1:05:08Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, I'm the same.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:05:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  So I usually have to hide and get my in, so when I'm getting my energy back. One of my fifth, if I can divide the two, and the introvert and the connected one is, the introvert likes. I I I planted a lot of trees in the last five years.

• 1:05:26Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right, nice.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  Planted two thousand trees.

• 1:05:28Fearne Cotton?

  Whoa.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  I'm obsessed with trees, so I bought some fields and just that's what I've been doing planting, like. And hedges and I like seeing, rewilding, seeing butterflies and everything come alive from a once just a flat field. And so I sometimes just, I go like this morning before I left, I just sat in there, it was quite windy. But I've been watching butterflies and things and I I feel like.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  You know, because of planting all these trees, these things have come here and made homes here. And that moves me a lot that you you can plant things that bring nature alive.

• 1:06:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  So I that that for me, I feel part of it.

• 1:06:12Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  And then some ducklings I sort of reared and they turn up and and I feed them. So that's a happy place, but there's no human there.

• 1:06:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I get that.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  So my right.

• 1:06:23Fearne Cotton?

  I'm the same.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Are you?

• 1:06:24Fearne Cotton?

  I need to recharge, like.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Fearne Cotton?

  After I've had a day of talking to people.

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, exactly.

• 1:06:29Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I have to go and look after my children, which is then sometimes like, oh, my God, it's so there's so many voices and questions or whatever.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Fearne Cotton?

  I need at least an hour in the week where I'm on my own. And I don't even listen to music. I just need to be walking in silence and not even see another human. If I see a neighbour, I'm like hiding behind a bush.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Talk to them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I pace around the young trees, seeing which ones are making it, which ones need to help. That's a happy place. And I suppose the other happy place for me is just being with friends who you can, I can just, just be ridiculous.

• 1:07:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, be yourself.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Be yourself and not try to be anything.

• 1:07:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  And you feel, it feels great.

• 1:07:09Fearne Cotton?

  It does. It's the best.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  It feels great.

• 1:07:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  And you're not performing in any way.

• 1:07:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  And sometimes not saying anything.

• 1:07:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Oh, that's even better.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Let them speak.

• 1:07:21Fearne Cotton?

  I think both of us now need to like respectively go and recharge in a quiet room.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you're great. But I I it's great to talk to you because um I think I think even though you struggle with it. And I I I think it does cost you something to do this.

• 1:07:36Fearne Cotton?

  A massive amount.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're you're brave for it. And and I think to say the things you do, people go, oh, yeah, okay. And that helps someone.

• 1:07:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, I hope so. You don't know, you know, yeah. No, you hope so. You hope, and you know, like you, I meet enough people that say

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:07:54Fearne Cotton?

  powerful things that you just think, Christ, I, you know, I don't have a clue what I'm doing. I'm just like bumbling along. But I'm honest, I will tell you how I'm feeling and what I'm struggling with. Most of the time, I think there's, there's always stuff you've got to hold back for yourself because you're dealing with it in therapy and you're

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:09Fearne Cotton?

  working through stuff or whatever, but you know, and it's made me think I need to repost the shame post. I'm gonna do that today.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  Are you?

• 1:08:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, fuck it. Yeah, fuck it.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Just, just say it.

• 1:08:20Fearne Cotton?

  Just say it. Just say the thing.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Maybe I should. My old one.

• 1:08:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, do it. Let's both repost the ones we cancelled.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  But why do we, why do we go, oh, if someone says a nasty thing or da, da, da. Yeah, you're right. You're completely right. Delete, delete.

• 1:08:34Fearne Cotton?

  I know. It's because we had a bit of self doubt in the first place and then it just implodes it completely.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  But it's also quite, it's brave to say anything or, or make anything or, you know, the book you're making is brave.

• 1:08:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  You know, I saw a brilliant thing the other day where someone, some gymnast was doing something and there was a guy lying on the couch going, come on.

• 1:08:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  Wait a second. They're in the arena getting sweating and blood and talk. You're just the critic.

• 1:09:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Well, what's the Roosevelt quote about, you know, you mustn't, yeah, exactly.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:05Fearne Cotton?

  Unless you're in the, unless you're in the ring, you haven't got to say, sorry.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Sorry, mate.

• 1:09:10Fearne Cotton?

  Sorry, mate.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  They're the ones.

• 1:09:11Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly, you're doing it.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  And you're doing it.

• 1:09:13Fearne Cotton?

  So you're right. Well, yeah, giving him a best shot. Um, Charlie, what an honour, what a joy. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I bloody love that.

• 1:09:20Speaker 02

  I really did too.

• 1:09:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Charlie, thank you so, so much. I just, I loved every bit of that chat. Just what an amazing man, amazing talent. And the talent not only being that he's just an incredible artist, but also that he has somehow tuned in to being able to sort of tap into all of our emotions and, and connect with us. It's remarkable. Always remember, the boy, the mole, the fox, the horse and the storm is out now. Now, why don't you come and have a little natter on Instagram during the week? We're @happyplaceofficial, but also, much more importantly, why don't we all try and find a bit of connection with someone in an unexpected place? I mean, it's terrifying, but why not start a conversation with someone? On the bus, on the train, in the coffee shop, at the school gates.

• 1:10:06Fearne Cotton?

  It feels uncomfortable, but it's a beautiful way to just connect off of screens. I bet you'll feel better afterwards. All right, a massive thanks again to Charlie, to the producer, Anushka Tate, and to you. I love ya.

• 1:10:47Speaker 03

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Edition terms apply for all offers.

• 1:11:17Speaker 05

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone and including dental, vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 1:11:48Speaker 06

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 1:11:57Speaker 03

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves.

• 1:11:59Speaker 06

  Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat.

• 1:12:02Speaker 03

  And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Ben, we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches.

• 1:12:09Speaker 06

  We've got a spooky hotline caller.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert.

• 1:12:15Speaker 06

  And your tarot card dilemmas.

• 1:12:17Speaker 03

  Listen to our Halloween specials, search for The Girls Bathroom.