Can I Still Be a Good Man if I Leave?

After decades together, he wonders whether he can stay in a marriage where intimacy and connection has all but disappeared. He's touch-starved and lonely and questioning whether preserving the family unit for the sake of his young daughter, is worth the cost of losing himself. Esther helps him look beyond the question of whether to stay or leave and toward what he needs to feel alive and true to himself. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Relationships are undergoing a massive cultural shift. We've never been more connected, and we've never felt more disconnected. We crave understanding and collective experience. We want to be seen but we're optimizing for isolation. Esther believes that the only way to improve our relationships is to remember the basics of being together. This is why she's inviting you to join her for an immersive experience: her international tour, Strangers, Friends, and Lovers. Tickets are selling fast. Get yours now at estherperel.com/tour. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  My wife and I have been in a relationship for 25 years. We've been together since we were 19 and we're in our mid-40s now. Throughout our time together, I've always felt like our relationship was second priority, whether it was to her education, or to her residency, or to her career approach, or to starting a family, or to the maintenance of that. I've always come second or third in the relationship, behind her parents, her anxiety and her own life. And as a result, our relationship has really suffered. We've been in therapy for, you know, on and off for 15 different years,

• 0:45Speaker 00

  and underlying dynamics really have been shifted. And, you know, our sex life as a result has been effectively nonexistent. Initially, by her choice for a good, you know, seven to 12 years. And then lately, by my choice, because I just didn't feel safe in the relationship anymore.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  She really wants to try to have a relationship again, but I've never felt safe and she's never really felt accountable for what's happened. Recently, I've been starting to get feelings of arousal at inappropriate times. I think I've been so touch-starred for so long and her response has been, "I don't know how to help you." And it's led me to say, "Should I leave this relationship?" And I'm really torn. How do I prioritize my own needs over preserving the family unit?

• 1:51Speaker 00

  And dealing with the guilt of that kind of a selfish choice?

• 2:08Esther Perel?

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• 2:50Speaker 02

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• 3:37Speaker 00

  It's hard to listen to again.

• 3:41Esther Perel?

  Where do you feel the hard?

• 3:44Speaker 00

  It's hard, Esther, because I feel a lot of pressure that's both internally driven. Maybe there's like a complex network of reasons for why I feel it, you know, societal, cultural, and so on. But I feel a lot of pressure to preserve the family unit. And that prioritizing my own needs is ultimately, as I said, extremely selfish decision when it comes at the potential cost on my daughter. We went through a lot to have her. You know, we went through multiple miscarriages and IVF and all that stuff to have her. And in doing so, you are, you know, making an explicit commitment. Like, "I really want this thing. I'm really trying for this thing."

• 4:27Speaker 00

  And in return for this sort of magical thing that came about, "I will do everything in my power to preserve this thing."

• 4:35Speaker 00

  And so that means sacrifice. And at what point do you say, like, "This sacrifice is not good for me?" And this is planting seeds that are going to blossom in a negative way in your child's future, 10, 20 years, 30 years from now?

• 4:52Esther Perel?

  How old is she?

• 4:53Speaker 00

  She's young. She's not yet five.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  And so, like, how do you balance the math on that? You know, at what point is the harm to me so acute that it's okay to potentially risk some, at least short-term, harm to your child? Or is it a situation where, like, you know, I kind of currently believe is sort of a default perspective that,

• 5:19Speaker 00

  like, damage to the child outweighs damage to me, you know, by some multiplicative factor, you know, 10 to 1, 20 to 1. This math is all made up, obviously, right? But emotionally, that math feels really valid.

• 5:32Esther Perel?

  Hmm, of course. When you say this is hard to listen to, tell me about the hard that is an emotion and not a thought and a mathematical equation.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  What I hear is, "This is a person who is quite lonely and struggling." "This is a person who is reaching out because he is kind of like out of options. He doesn't know where to go next."

• 6:03Esther Perel?

  Who is he talking to?

• 6:06Esther Perel?

  Who does he reach out to?

• 6:11Speaker 00

  In this particular case, it's you. But in the global sense, it's just like, I think that person is seeking certainty about a choice. That, like, intrinsically, I think they know what the answer is, but they're not okay confronting the consequences of that choice.

• 6:34Esther Perel?

  So, we have only an hour.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:38Esther Perel?

  And this is a bigger issue.

• 6:42Esther Perel?

  And so we're going to scratch the surface.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 6:45Esther Perel?

  That's why I'm asking you, who is there besides me?

• 6:50Speaker 00

  So I am speaking to my own therapist. And also, kind of pursuant to what I was mentioning in the conversation, I have a lot of, like, built-up shame around the topic of intimacy. And so I've started talking to an intimacy therapist as well, like, to try and take apart some of that shame that I'm feeling. So there are people that I'm talking to and working with to try and talk through these feelings.

• 7:18Esther Perel?

  When I listen to this, I pick up on a few things. They're not in order of importance.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:27Esther Perel?

  And they all are part of this decision. Because you put this decision as the main thing. To me, I'm not sure that that's what it is.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 7:39Esther Perel?

  But I hear, as you said, "We tried very hard to create this family.

• 7:47Esther Perel?

  I can't imagine leaving it. But I also can't imagine staying as is."

• 7:56Esther Perel?

  But you position it as my needs versus the other people's needs. And I think that the preservation of the family is no less of your need either.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 8:09Esther Perel?

  Because you present it as if taking care of myself or taking care of my family.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:14Esther Perel?

  Taking care of your family is part of taking care of yourself.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 8:19Esther Perel?

  It is part of what you need as well. It's not their needs versus yours.

• 8:27Esther Perel?

  That's the first thing I just want to... It jumped at me. It's like, you know, staying for my family as if it's for them. Staying for your family is very much something that you need and want as well.

• 8:42Esther Perel?

  So it's not my needs versus theirs. It's a different set of needs inside of me that are maybe pulling in different directions, but they're all internal.

• 8:55Esther Perel?

  The second thing I hear is that is a hint of... I don't exactly understand. She withdrew for seven or more years, then I withdrew. Now she would like to reconnect, but I am not showing up.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:12Esther Perel?

  Because I have resentment?

• 9:15Esther Perel?

  Because I feel like, "I don't know what." But this is not just a sentence that ends right there.

• 9:22Esther Perel?

  "In this, I don't feel safe. I don't know what it means." But something happened that each time one of you makes sure not to be there so that nothing can happen between the two of you.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:34Esther Perel?

  Then I hear, I come from a culture that has...

• 9:39Esther Perel?

  Transmitted to me a set of values about the importance of family versus individual happiness.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:48Esther Perel?

  It is a big piece of what sits inside of you.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:53Esther Perel?

  Then you talk about this inappropriate arouses or arouses at inappropriate moments. I don't know what you're talking about, but you have a whole story about that.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:02Esther Perel?

  So that's just five of them.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we can tackle a couple of those things. The cultural norms is a quick one. I think both my wife and I are first generation, meaning our parents were the ones who immigrated here from their home countries and like many immigrant families.

• 10:20Esther Perel?

  Like which are what, by the way?

• 10:22Speaker 00

  I'm Indian, she's Chinese.

• 10:23Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Both our parents immigrated here for education and I think like many marriages, at least in my culture, it was a marriage not of like romantic love, the way it is in the U S or in Western cultures, but more of like sort of like economic fit in a sense. And, you know, they've stayed together for sixty some years in spite of it being pretty rocky. I suspect, I mean, it's difficult to parse these things psychologically, but I suspect that that is where my conception of what the commitment of marriage looks like is you stay together and you persevere. You persist and you persist and you persist, even if things are not good and healthy.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  And I know that sort of cuts both ways, like I see the impact it has on me. I also, in terms of like my own commitment to a relationship, but I also see the impact it has on me in a sort of negative way about like the experience I had growing up and the sort of fear I lived with as a kid. And, you know, had they chosen a different path, how that might have been beneficial in some ways or challenging in other ways.

• 11:31Esther Perel?

  But the idea of you persist and you're in it for life, no matter what,

• 11:39Esther Perel?

  is accompanied by the notion that marriage is not defined necessarily by the intimate connection between the partners. Marriage is a scaffolding, a structure, an infrastructure that gives you access to a host of other things in life.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 11:54Esther Perel?

  Those will be the sources of your happiness and your contentment.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  I wouldn't even say happiness and contentment, that's just the sources of your activity in life. Like those are the sources of your obligations in life, your commitments in life. But you're right, like it's not about an intimate connection or even a supportive connection. It's more about like a, I mean, this sounds so clinical, but I mean, like it's an economic arrangement meant to foster the existence of children and their wellbeing.

• 12:25Esther Perel?

  And you experience the original family oriented values as creating conflict for you?

• 12:37Speaker 00

  I'm sort of speculating about why, in light of these sort of like consistent failure to meet me where my needs are and me still feeling obligated to stay. You know, in therapy, I've been talking about like, why do I feel this strong pull towards preservation of the family unit as it's currently constructed? And this has been my best guess as to why I feel this way.

• 13:04Esther Perel?

  When you say failure to meet me, do you think your wife would say the same thing? She's in her therapy to discuss your failure to meet her?

• 13:14Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so.

• 13:16Esther Perel?

  And when you talk about not being safe, what are you talking about?

• 13:20Speaker 00

  You know, I've expressed openly to her in therapeutic contexts and non-therapeutic contexts about how lonely I feel and how much I miss not just the intimate touch, but like the presence and her availability and her time and her attention. And this has been said emotionally with anger, this has been said emotionally with tears. This has been said calmly, this has been said in front of therapists, outside of therapists. And each time a set of promises is made that don't get delivered. When I said in the voice memo that like, you know, I haven't ever felt like I'm a top priority, I think I was actually being a little generous in the memo.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Like, it's not that I don't feel like a top priority or a second priority. I don't think I believe even in a top three priority for the entirety of our marriage. You know, her anxiety, her family, her work, our daughter, any number of things can come first and second and third before our relationship.

• 14:22Esther Perel?

  That's acknowledged openly by her?

• 14:25Speaker 00

  I think it's reluctantly acknowledged by her. And, you know, she's not been very diligent about going to therapy. So I think she's had a harder time processing some of the implications of the words that I'm saying.

• 14:37Esther Perel?

  Do you think that part of her not landing this?

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:46Esther Perel?

  Is also because she comes from a tradition where you stay married no matter what.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:52Esther Perel?

  So what if your husband is lonely or touch deprived or intimacy hungry? Or he'll just have to figure it out and life goes on?

• 15:05Speaker 00

  I think my unhappiness has really worn on her. I mean, look, it's difficult. It's a difficult situation to know that your spouse is unhappy. And, you know, I think that's, that's hard.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  But yeah, I think prior to my like sort of forcing this issue with her.

• 15:26Esther Perel?

  Your spouse is unhappy in his relationship with you? Or and he is enjoying very much the other aspect of his life? Or are we making a broader statement?

• 15:40Speaker 00

  It's, it's hard to parse those things apart, Esther, because a lot of what has been difficult in my marriage is that I've had to isolate. You know, she has sort of asked that she be the center of my universe. You know, like limiting friendships, limiting outings, limiting like

• 15:58Speaker 00

  opportunities to interact with others, which are things that give me a lot of energy and joy.

• 16:03Esther Perel?

  And why do you have to limit?

• 16:07Speaker 00

  At some point, it becomes easier to succumb than to argue about it.

• 16:12Esther Perel?

  But why is her request for you to limit?

• 16:15Speaker 00

  That's what she wants. You know, there was an example like where we were supposed to go to a, an event, like a ticketed event a few years back and she had to work the next day. And it was a, you know, event that started at seven P M or eight P M. And she asked me probably fifty times leading up to it, like, what time is it gonna end? You know, are you, are you sure we're gonna be home by ten P M? And I was like, I don't know, we'll try, we'll try to be home early, we'll try to leave as soon as it's over. And the day of, she was like badgering me, badgering me, badgering me, we have to be home by ten, we have to be home by ten, we have to be home by ten, because I have to go to work at six A M the next day, we have to be home. And like the fifty first time she badgered me about it that day, I was like, you know what? It's fine, we won't go anymore.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  That's it, like, we won't go. And like the, the sort of soul had been sucked out of it. You know, this was supposed to be a moment where we could go out and do something together, but it ended up being a situation where like her anxiety about her work superseded everything else.

• 17:16Esther Perel?

  But you chose not to go as well? Rather than to suggest to her that maybe it's not a good thing for her, but you will see her later?

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Yes, that's right. I chose to forfeit. I think I was so worn down by that point that I just chose to forfeit. And so I think that's the way a lot of our conversations had gone in the past where we, where I just get really worn down by it and then giving up is easier than going at it alone.

• 17:54Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 18:10Esther Perel?

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• 18:14Esther Perel?

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• 18:59Esther Perel?

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• 19:14Esther Perel?

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• 19:57Esther Perel?

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• 20:15Esther Perel?

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• 21:51Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you something?

• 21:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:53Esther Perel?

  We met at nineteen.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:55Esther Perel?

  What drew you to each other?

• 21:57Speaker 00

  You know, I think that's the one time in my life where I felt like my prior comments are not valid around not being a top priority. We were both in this kind of like difficult place from an educational journey perspective, where we had a lot of pressure from our parents and we were struggling in different ways. And she was absolutely there for me, in ways that I, no matter what happens, I will always be thankful and appreciative of.

• 22:24Esther Perel?

  Take that in.

• 22:28Esther Perel?

  Because you can get quite bogged down once you go from one negative to another negative.

• 22:37Esther Perel?

  And it's very important to have some anchors of positivity, of mutuality, of reciprocity.

• 22:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:50Esther Perel?

  When you did not feel alone, when you did not feel that you are there for her at your expense all the time, that you don't know how to just say, "I'm sure you'll be okay and I'll see you later, I'm gonna go and meet so and so." And that that challenge for you, in effect, I may be totally off, but I have a feeling that it may be said with a different accent, but it is quite resonant to sentences you heard growing up.

• 23:27Esther Perel?

  The kind of loyalty bind that you are experiencing did not start just with your wife.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  I don't know that I agree. I think there was a, I got a lot of comments growing up that you're not good enough, you're not meeting my expectations as a son. You know, like academically, you're not meeting my expectations, or socially, you're not meeting my expectations. I got a lot of those types of comments growing up, but it was never really phrased in sort of loyalty context that you're describing.

• 24:01Esther Perel?

  Oh, I consider that part of the loyalty.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, well then, fine. They were using different words to say the same thing. But I think in that context, I think there's similarity that, you know, we were reflecting back on our time in her schooling. And, you know, she phrased, I asked her some question like, you know, "Why were you so hard on me? You know, I really needed friendship and you really prevented me from going out seeking it. Like, why weren't you more supportive of me trying to build those connections?" And she said to me, "I thought you were strong enough to do it without it." And like, I was like, "Man, that is a super critical way of describing me telling you

• 24:45Speaker 00

  what my needs were and saying that like, I should have been stronger and able to survive without those things."

• 24:53Speaker 00

  And I don't think she meant it to be harsh.

• 24:56Esther Perel?

  No, I think actually it's a compliment.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't think it's a compliment. I thought it was hurtful.

• 25:03Esther Perel?

  In a twisted way, you know, I know, but in a twisted way, it's like, if you're really strong, you need nobody, which is of course a complete distortion of humanity.

• 25:16Esther Perel?

  But that is the idea, right? If you're strong, you don't need anyone. By definition, the need for others diminishes you.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  This is some sort of like weird, like, like we're like gender swapping kind of like norms right here, you know, where it's like, it's expressing some version of like toxic masculinity, which I've never subscribed to. This like idea of like, you know, being like a monolith capable of resisting all sorts of forces, all on your own. And I think that's actually what we've bonded over, is that that was never my attitude towards us. Like, our relationship was always equal. I always felt that it was my responsibility as a spouse to support her in her career and, you know, move geographically with her and support her. I appreciate your point.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  It just feels like we've, we should be better than that, we should know more than that.

• 26:07Esther Perel?

  But it's a question with two angles, right? Why did you not support me more in my pursuit of other friendships and other people around me is accompanied with the question of why did it become so difficult for me to continue eating when I knew I was hungry?

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Are you saying that as a self-reflection question or like as relationship dynamic?

• 26:34Esther Perel?

  No, in the relationship dynamic, you know, you can ask a partner, "Why did you not understand how important it was for me to have friends, to have a social life, to go out, to be in the world?" And that question lives side by side with the flip side of it, which is, how come I was able to let go of it so wholly and not maintain what I knew was really vital for me? If I translated this to food, that's why I talked about hunger. It's like, somebody says, "You shouldn't be hungry now." And you say, "No, I haven't eaten.

• 27:20Esther Perel?

  I'm hungry." What do you do? You stop eating because they said you shouldn't be hungry?

• 27:28Esther Perel?

  You wait for them to accept that you're hungry before you eat again? Or you just say, "I understand, but you don't know what's in my belly. I'm gonna continue eating."

• 27:40Esther Perel?

  All three are parts of the same thing, but one piece for you dropped out or dropped off.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  I think this goes back to the core question I was asking. You know, I don't feel like I've been comfortable asserting my needs because I've always felt that my obligation was to the relationship before it was to myself.

• 28:00Esther Perel?

  Right. And I'm going to suggest to you a model where that is much more integrated than an either/or.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 28:09Esther Perel?

  My needs include attending to others.

• 28:16Esther Perel?

  And sometimes I choose that, or I decide that that's what matters most, and sometimes I attend to other needs. They are all part of one whole. If I present them as either/or, me or you, me or the family, what the family needs versus what I need, I will live with tremendous loss and tremendous guilt and maybe some shame sprinkled on top of it.

• 28:48Esther Perel?

  I will either feel like I lost me, or I will feel like I lost the people I love most.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  Yes. In that context, I think what I'm saying is, it got way out of whack because I was investing much more heavily on serving others than serving myself.

• 29:07Esther Perel?

  And hoping what, that at some point, someone will give you a sticker, a bunch of stars.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, kind of, yeah. Like, someone at some point would say like, "Man, you've been sacrificing a lot. This is an incredible job you've done of supporting the family."

• 29:25Speaker 00

  And like implicitly, I think there's a hope of reciprocity in there as well. But I think it's, you know, I'm not a very spiritual person, but it's almost like this karmic belief that you've done the right thing.

• 29:40Esther Perel?

  And while you're waiting for that divine intervention...

• 29:48Speaker 00

  But I don't believe that, right? Yeah.

• 29:50Esther Perel?

  You can continue to say, "I need a better equilibrium."

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:59Esther Perel?

  One doesn't contradict the other. "I need a better equilibrium. I need time," whatever it is, "alone, I need time with friends, I need other people to share my life and my stories with, who are not in my immediate family. I need to go to live events because they give me energy, they bring me to life, they..."

• 30:26Esther Perel?

  Infuse vitality in me? You know, not living doesn't keep somebody else alive.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  Everything you're saying is logical. And I feel like I asserted these things. I think the challenge in my relationship was her perseverance was stronger than mine. And her perseverance and her resilience and asserting, no, you need to continue serving others. In that case, her.

• 30:53Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. Is that what she does too?

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Um.

• 30:58Esther Perel?

  Or that's what she she sees herself doing that as well?

• 31:02Speaker 00

  I don't think so.

• 31:03Esther Perel?

  No, okay.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  One of her best qualities is she is extremely warm and caring and thoughtful of others. Like, she is like A plus at that.

• 31:14Esther Perel?

  But not of you? Not enough of you as you would want?

• 31:18Speaker 00

  No, not even that as I want. Like, I think objectively, you know, we would go months without having time together. And these are two people who live together, right? This is not like a um.

• 31:33Esther Perel?

  Because you don't need investment, because you don't need upkeep, because that unit can survive on its own like a cactus without watering.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  I guess in her perspective, yeah. I guess in her perspective, that's right. And not my perspective. My perspective was very openly that, no, I need, I'm a cactus who needs water, you know? So.

• 31:53Esther Perel?

  You're like a cactus.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a plant, right? That needs water. So, yeah, I need a lot of water. But that wasn't her perspective. That's where like that kind of perspective of, you know, I thought you were strong enough, would come back in. You didn't need the attention, you didn't need the water. And and again, my perspective is like, I've been telling it to you. You know, I've been openly saying it.

• 32:11Esther Perel?

  And now?

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Now, now I think she is trying. She's trying to make room for that and trying to, you know, to extend the metaphor. She's bringing a, um, not a bucket of water, but at least a glass of water to try and rebuild it. But I feel like, um.

• 32:33Esther Perel?

  Can you take it?

• 32:36Speaker 00

  You've ever watched these videos on YouTube where people are showing like how they're rebuilding? Like, they're trying to fend off the Sahara and they're building these little, there's arid ground. They're building these little half moon little things to retain the water. So when the rains come, it doesn't just wash away. It absorbs into the ground and replenishes the groundwater. I'm like that arid ground. It is really hard for me to accept compliments. It is really hard for me to accept time from others. It is really, really difficult. I have to, I have to be extremely like conscious of like the conversation I'm in, where I'm receiving that compliment, receiving that time to let it soak into the ground.

• 33:15Esther Perel?

  And yet, you reached out to me.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:21Esther Perel?

  So?

• 33:24Speaker 00

  You see a contradiction there?

• 33:25Esther Perel?

  No, I'm seeing a different experience.

• 33:32Esther Perel?

  It is hard for me to experience any time, any help, any support, any attention, any focus. But that's exactly what we are doing.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:45Esther Perel?

  And at your request. So what's it like?

• 33:51Esther Perel?

  To have actually chosen to do the very thing that you say is so hard for you?

• 33:59Speaker 00

  I guess I have two thoughts. One is that, like, I'm a big believer in therapy in general and providing like different perspectives on how people are processing things is really helpful. And it has been helpful. It's taught me a lot.

• 34:11Esther Perel?

  Before you give me the thoughts, give me the experience. What's it like? I mean, it's a, I'm in effect giving you a compliment. I'm telling you that you ended up doing the very thing which you describe as being so difficult, and you just did it. So I'm taking stock with you.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:34Esther Perel?

  I'm going for the felt sense, not the explanation.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  It is on a

• 34:43Speaker 00

  um, very small level like nourishing for me to like

• 34:50Speaker 00

  engage with someone who is interested in like what my experience of the world is like and what my experience of relationships is like. And trying to help me process that and make things better. Like, there is a restorative element to it. It does feel simultaneously like exposing because I'm talking about deeply vulnerable things, but also somewhat restorative to do it.

• 35:21Esther Perel?

  I'm doing something good for myself? Or how desperate must I be that this is what I'm doing? Which one?

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Uh.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  The latter, I think.

• 35:36Esther Perel?

  Oh.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:39Esther Perel?

  Then we're not in the restorative category.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wouldn't have said it that way, but like

• 35:48Speaker 00

  my inner monologue is definitely saying the latter.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  I wish it could be different. Everyone in this story I'm telling you is a good person. I don't have a lot of animus towards the people involved in this story.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  And I have lots of love for the people in this story.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  And yet, my experience as an adult has been mostly a lonely one.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  And so I just wish it could be different. And I feel like I've tried

• 36:21Speaker 00

  all the things that you're supposed to try. Therapy, honest conversations, supportiveness.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  I'm really proud of myself for never having gone down any of the negative, ugly paths I could have gone down, you know, infidelity, yelling, you know, abuse of any sort. Like, I'm, I'm glad that I was able to avoid those kind of demons. And yet, I still feel like I'm throwing Hail Marys out to the universe to try to make this work.

• 36:51Esther Perel?

  I'm quiet because, first of all, you touched me. And I'm, I'm

• 36:58Esther Perel?

  my hope in some way that

• 37:03Esther Perel?

  at the end of our conversation,

• 37:06Esther Perel?

  you would actually think, God, I did this thing I would never do, never done anything like it.

• 37:14Esther Perel?

  But I called this woman and I thought, okay, I have a sense of a step I can take.

• 37:23Esther Perel?

  I mean, it's a contradiction in terms, right? To go say to someone, I'm an arid desert, while you're basically asking, water me?

• 37:34Esther Perel?

  But that's okay. It's like what you're doing is the very thing that tells me that what you're saying or what you're feeling isn't the only story.

• 37:45Esther Perel?

  If it's recruited as part of the, how lonely must I feel that I go to call a total stranger? These are all manufactured interpretations. Meaning, there's nothing more true to this version than to the other.

• 38:04Esther Perel?

  You know, there's a contempt that you've brought onto yourself now that says, I'm so lonely and this is what I'm doing. You know, how pathetic. It's that voice. It may not be those words, but it's that voice. And then there is the next voice, which is more kind, which is more that says, why am I in this place? I'm doing everything right that I can. I mean, I'm not, I'm not being an asshole and I'm reaching out and I'm trying to express my needs and I'm doing what the Western model tells me to do. And, and yet, you know, why, why, why am I? Why am I in the situation that I am in? And my wife is a wonderfully warm person.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:47Esther Perel?

  But she doesn't necessarily think that that applies to us.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 38:52Esther Perel?

  I don't know if she thinks that she's asking you a lot.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  I don't think she ever felt like she was asking me a lot. I think in retrospect, she would feel differently. But along the way, I think she just thought, this is what you're supposed to do. This is what a supportive husband does.

• 39:10Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. And now she's trying to tell you, I understood that you need something else from me to be considered a supportive wife. And there's a part of you that says, too little, too late.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 39:27Esther Perel?

  You pushed me away so far, I have no idea how to come back from there.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 39:32Esther Perel?

  And you don't know how to pull me in either. You make tiny little glass gestures, but I need entire buckets, right? That's the, the crux.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  That's the crux of it, yes.

• 39:42Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. And the next level of this is

• 39:50Esther Perel?

  one can say, because it's just a glass and I need so much more, there's not even a way to start.

• 39:57Esther Perel?

  Or one can say,

• 40:00Esther Perel?

  let me start with the glass and see where it takes me.

• 40:14Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 40:29Esther Perel?

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• 41:11Esther Perel?

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• 41:40Esther Perel?

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• 42:22Esther Perel?

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• 42:52Esther Perel?

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• 43:37Esther Perel?

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• 44:00Esther Perel?

  So talk to me about the inappropriate arouses, attractions and all of that, because I have a feeling that they come in here.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, this one's really painful to talk about. And it's just when I would be like hugging another person totally platonically, I would start to feel like physical reactions to that. And so I would have to like exit those situations urgently. Totally inappropriate, you know.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  We've been married for, you know, fifteen, sixteen years now. And we've had several years in those where we've not had any sort of physical intimacy.

• 44:53Esther Perel?

  Not affection and not sexual.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  I would say it's been affection, you know.

• 44:57Esther Perel?

  Affection, yes.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Affection has not really been a problem. But like an intimate connection has never been there. And when we've talked about it in therapy, which we have, oftentimes the focus of, well, I shouldn't say oftentimes exclusively, the focus of those conversations would be my anger and frustration about the situation, not about the underlying dynamics which caused the situation.

• 45:21Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  And so because that was the most visible symptom, that's what got treated. And like in some ways, I'm thankful for that because I feel like I have learned many tools to control like my resentment and anger and so on. And I've learned a lot about myself, but obviously underlying dynamics didn't shift.

• 45:43Esther Perel?

  Underlying dynamics being?

• 45:46Speaker 00

  You know, like her own issues that she has with intimacy. And I've built up a lot of shame about intimacy and a lot of protective armor about being intimate. Because ultimately it feels to some extent like I'm pressuring my spouse into fostering a romantic relationship with me. And like what's hotter than pressured intimacy ester? Like there's nothing better, right?

• 46:14Esther Perel?

  Very hot.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  Exactly. Peak, peak hotness. And so.

• 46:19Esther Perel?

  Pressure, pressure is on the top of the killers.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Yes. And so I feel like that is, it's really sad to me. It's embarrassing and it's saddening and it creates a lot of negative self-talk as well. You know, like I, I don't think I've ever said something like you said earlier, like how pathetic are you? But like when these reactions started happening, I was like, what is wrong with you? Like what kind of person can't control themselves? And that's painful.

• 46:53Esther Perel?

  I will say that I don't often find it very helpful. Meaning I've never seen people wanting sex from talking about why they don't want sex.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  Yep, I can believe that.

• 47:09Esther Perel?

  So at some point, it's really about initiating touch, building connection, staying present, which is the most important thing.

• 47:24Esther Perel?

  And that means hands-on, that means either in a, in a workshop context, not in a therapy office necessarily.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I understand.

• 47:34Esther Perel?

  Or with an intimacy coach that actually tracks with you how to stay and develop this physical intimacy.

• 47:47Esther Perel?

  But it requires two people who really say,

• 47:53Esther Perel?

  we want that and we deserve that and it's missing in our life.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  I think my, my challenge is there is that I have been asking for that for ten-plus years. And now, when I've tried to do that, it feels like I have not just led a horse to water. I have led a horse to water, I've dumped its head, I've held it underwater, I've threatened it. And like by threatening to send it to the glue factory, you know, I got, I've done all the things. And now the horse is like, oh yes, water will be good.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  And I'm like, well, I mean, what kind of monster does this make me that I'm forcing this horse to have water?

• 48:34Esther Perel?

  But is that really, is that really what? I mean, it's like you wouldn't do any of this if I hadn't forced you, if I hadn't put pressure, if I hadn't threatened you, if I hadn't said I'm done with this.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  That, that is precisely what it is.

• 48:50Esther Perel?

  So if I had to work so hard for this to happen and now you do, it's worth shit because you're just doing this because you don't want me to go.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say it that way. I think that is.

• 49:02Esther Perel?

  I say things for the effect.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think you're putting a judgment on it that I wouldn't agree with. I would just say the way it makes me feel is that it makes me question the mutuality of this experience. There's many reasons why we have intimate relationships. And if I tried the normal ways of fostering that through emotional connection and normal affection and so on, and that wasn't present. But what is, what is effective is me saying, I'm broken and I can't do this anymore. Like what does that indicate about the relationship and what does that indicate about me?

• 49:46Esther Perel?

  What it indicates is that sometimes the fear of loss will ignite a change that one doesn't have when one thinks this thing can wait. I mean, that is the cactus mentality. It will survive with no water.

• 50:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:09Esther Perel?

  And you say, I'm not a cactus. I'm a plant that needs a lot of irrigation. And at some point, you say, I'm choking.

• 50:24Esther Perel?

  I've used up everything inside and it's drying up.

• 50:30Esther Perel?

  And then sometimes the person realizes, wow, I don't want that to happen.

• 50:37Esther Perel?

  And then you say, well, I don't trust if you're doing this for me or for you.

• 50:44Esther Perel?

  Who are you protecting here? My brokenness or your abandonment?

• 50:50Speaker 00

  I agree with that last statement quite a lot.

• 50:52Esther Perel?

  You do?

• 50:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:54Esther Perel?

  Tell it to me in your own words.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  That is precisely the way I felt like that ultimately, is this in service of a mutual experience? Or is this in service of a relief of your anxiety being abandoned?

• 51:09Speaker 00

  And I don't feel like, I, I guess I, I just don't know.

• 51:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, beyond what to trust, i- it just feels a kind of rotten to be having intimacy under those kind of terms.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  It should be about us, it shouldn't be about solving for our anxieties. Like, that can be a dynamic that exists at times, but that shouldn't be the only reason.

• 51:39Esther Perel?

  Have you asked for the question?

• 51:41Speaker 00

  I'm sure. I mean, over the ten years or fifteen years of therapy that we've been through, I can't remember her answers specifically, but the patterns repeat, you know? And so I think that says to me all it needs to say. That ultimately, unless I'm constantly threatening this and stoking this fire through threats,

• 52:03Speaker 00

  the natural state of things is

• 52:05Esther Perel?

  dormant.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  Dormant, yeah.

• 52:09Esther Perel?

  How does this seep through in the way you both are with your daughter?

• 52:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. Like, this is the biggest question I would, I would say. It's like, how much of this is visible to her?

• 52:21Speaker 00

  You know, like, when I talk to therapists and others, they, you know, they say, like, kids are way more observant than we give them credit for, and

• 52:28Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but it depends what they need to look at.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think we are both loving parents to her. We're both present. I think our dysfunction is not particularly visible. Like, there's no, like, yelling, there's no obvious sort of outbursts in the house.

• 52:46Esther Perel?

  Do you enjoy the rest?

• 52:49Speaker 00

  That's an interesting question. I hadn't really thought about that.

• 52:51Esther Perel?

  I mean, enjoy may not be the

• 52:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get your point, though, yeah.

• 52:55Esther Perel?

  Do you value, because we are focusing in on one very particular

• 53:00Speaker 00

  I certainly value the the integrated dynamic of, like, family needs and my needs and so on. I place a high degree of value on being, what is quote, "a good husband, a good father, a good provider."

• 53:17Speaker 00

  I don't think I enjoy this situation. I mean, if I enjoyed it, I don't think I'd reach out to you.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  I think I place a lot of value on

• 53:28Esther Perel?

  Doing the right thing.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 53:33Esther Perel?

  In the system where people place a lot of values about doing the right thing, enjoyment is not necessarily one of the measurements.

• 53:44Esther Perel?

  Value is more important than enjoyment. It's okay. It's different. You live within a few different cultures.

• 53:53Esther Perel?

  And they emphasize different things. They are all inside of you. And

• 54:02Esther Perel?

  some of them allow you to focus on you and on the self, and some of them tell you that

• 54:08Esther Perel?

  the focus of the self is the others.

• 54:11Esther Perel?

  And there is no simple answer to this.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:19Esther Perel?

  No matter which choice you make, there will be consequences to your choice.

• 54:25Esther Perel?

  But you can create buffers. The reason I'm asking you very specific questions like this is because I always am looking, where is there softening?

• 54:37Esther Perel?

  Where am I not in these extremes? So that you have two impossible options, and it starts to feel like a Faustian bargain.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Have you heard that softening in this conversation?

• 54:53Esther Perel?

  Yeah, I mean, various places.

• 54:57Esther Perel?

  Like, when you say she's very warm. In the rest, one could experience, you describe someone who is more distant, more task-oriented, more anxiety-driven, more, more cold, maybe even. And then in the middle of this, you tell me, no, she's actually very, very warm. And I'm thinking, wow. Where is that?

• 55:26Esther Perel?

  Then you're telling me, I actually

• 55:30Esther Perel?

  express my frustrations in all kinds of ways. I'm well aware that people start by asking nice, and then at some point they become not nice, and then it's told to them that the reason that they can't get what they want is because they're asking it in not a nice way.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:44Esther Perel?

  I get it. But then you say, it actually was very important for me because I needed to change that.

• 55:53Esther Perel?

  Because in that same value system, I, as a man, am entitled to this. I do my job, I provide, I take care, I do what I'm supposed to do, I expect my partner to do hers.

• 56:10Esther Perel?

  But then comes the Western value. And it says, no, no, no, I don't expect. But then if I don't expect, then I pressure. And I don't want to pressure, I want her to want. And I don't want her to want because I want and because she's afraid to lose me.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:27Esther Perel?

  See, every one of these systems sits on a pillars, on a few pillars of what supports it, what drives it.

• 56:37Esther Perel?

  And one minute you're giving me statements of one culture, and one minute you're giving me statements of the other culture.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  We are complicated animals, Esther.

• 56:45Esther Perel?

  Seamlessly crisscrossing each other, you know? Between, if I do the right thing, why doesn't my wife do the right thing? But when my wife wants to do the right thing, then I say, I don't want her to just do the right thing. I want her to do the thing because that's what she craves as much as me. And she values it like I do. And now we've suddenly switched to the Western romantic ideal, and then we go back and forth. And if there's something that we're gonna get from our conversation, it's really for you to, to, to catch that, to see how you're swimming

• 57:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:19Esther Perel?

  from one system into another. And the system that feels that she should do the right thing is a system, internal system, that would actually say, okay, I take the glass. Start with the glass and we'll see what, what develops. But at that moment, you're switching to the other system.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  I mean, the way you're describing it, it sounds like I'm, I'm moving the, the finish on it.

• 57:44Esther Perel?

  It's not conscious. I don't think you're doing this

• 57:46Speaker 00

  No, no, e- e- even if it's subconscious, like, that, that's fine. I don't feel like, I will reflect on that and think about whether that's the case.

• 57:53Esther Perel?

  Either, by the way, yeah?

• 57:55Speaker 00

  I mean, it, it certainly, if, if I were dealing with a moving target, that certainly makes my job harder. Or if anyone's dealing with a moving target, that's, that's difficult then to deal with.

• 58:05Esther Perel?

  It's de facto, you are a moving target because different, different truths live inside of you. And it just is. It's your existential and your inner reality. So does she.

• 58:20Esther Perel?

  So does she. I could imagine her sitting right here and probably repeating some of the same sentences as you, but from her point of view.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:30Esther Perel?

  And she could also say, why is that so important? There's so many other things that matter, I mean, you know? And the goal is not to sort this out, and the goal is not to choose one over the other. The goal is to kind of sit with this complexity. Because there's a part of you that says, I should, I deserve, I do my part. I'm doing whatever is expected of me, being a good man, being a good provider, and being a good father.

• 59:03Esther Perel?

  Where's my wife? Where's my lover? Where's my partner? Where's my playmate?

• 59:09Speaker 00

  There's something about what you're saying which feels very, like, I don't know what other words to say, but like, very chauvinistic, which is making me react in a very, like, negative way. Because I don't do myself that way at all, like, this sort of expectation that's placed on other people.

• 59:23Esther Perel?

  Change the tone.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 59:25Esther Perel?

  Change the tone. It's a, it, it is in the, in the, in the values, but it's not a chauvinistic statement. See, that's the problem, is that these things have been so turned into polarizing statements rather than integrated value systems. You know, the word entitlement may be half of it, but it, it says, you know, there are expectations of what I should be doing. And I think she would probably say the same about her.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:00:00Esther Perel?

  So that's when, the conclusion of that is when you say, there is not a single person here with bad intentions. These are all people trying to do their best.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:12Esther Perel?

  But the question of you is this. Is there a part of you that still holds on? And if so, take what you get to start.

• 1:00:27Esther Perel?

  Because where it starts isn't necessarily where it continues.

• 1:00:32Esther Perel?

  One can start because one is anxious. And one can continue because one starts to value it, to see its importance, to realize what it means for themselves, or for what you call

• 1:00:46Esther Perel?

  the vitality of the couple.

• 1:00:49Esther Perel?

  Even if it starts from a motive that you think is lesser than.

• 1:00:55Esther Perel?

  That's a cushion.

• 1:00:58Esther Perel?

  Because otherwise, you will spend hours at the borders, standing at the door, obsessing about staying or leaving, staying or leaving.

• 1:01:10Esther Perel?

  And only you will live with the consequences of your decision, so nobody should tell you what to do on this one.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:19Esther Perel?

  How are we doing?

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  It's hard, Esther, because I feel like what you're describing, like, in this last five minutes, is something that, um, we've tried. The pattern that repeats, you know, things experience an uptick for a week, two weeks, and then it retreats back when the next crisis emerges. And things go right back to the way they were, and we have to rebuild that bridge from scratch. And so, like, everything you're saying is logical. I understand it, and we've tried it. And my ennui towards it is that I feel like we've, I've seen this play before. And that's not me trying to be dismissive of it. That's just like a, my emotional reaction to what you're saying.

• 1:02:06Esther Perel?

  When it starts to pull apart, don't wait till you begin to boil.

• 1:02:13Esther Perel?

  Come right back, and not just come right back because you

• 1:02:19Esther Perel?

  are once again hungry, lonely, frustrated. But come right back because you want to remind her that she's moving and that this is something that's hard for her to sustain, but that you're there to help her with it. See, this is the same as you in reverse. Is this for me or is this for you? Come back knowing Not come back angry, frustrated, defeated.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand.

• 1:02:46Esther Perel?

  Come back just knowing she thinks about a ton of things. She thinks about a lot of people. She doesn't think much about herself. And she certainly doesn't think much about that aspect of herself. So I'm gonna help her. And you can ask her, do you want me to? Can you even imagine that I would come not just because I'm knocking at the door? Because I'm all alone on the other side. But I'm knocking at the door because I know how quickly it is for you sometimes to forget this. And I'm gonna take it upon me to help you remember.

• 1:03:29Esther Perel?

  Not just for me, but truly for us. Because that's something you can offer. That's something you can give and not demand. All right?

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  Okay. Thanks, Esther.

• 1:03:44Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 1:03:57Speaker 03

  This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

• 1:04:42Speaker 03

  We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 1:04:56Speaker 04

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• 1:05:27Speaker 05

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