I Want You To Want Me

Couples often struggle with gaps in their sex drives, but what does a couple do when one person has no desire for sex whatsoever? A married couple comes to Esther with this question: one of them has recently discovered that she's asexual, while the other craves sex as a primary form of connection. Is theirs an irreconcilable difference? Is there hope for their future, or should they accept that divorce is the only option before them? Esther challenges their long-held assumptions about sexuality, and offers a third path forward. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by chef Paul Carmichael. We talk all about the incredible restaurants he's worked in, the best music to play in the restaurant bathrooms, and how he reacted when he found out his restaurant Kabawa had been ranked number one by The New York Times. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  I don't really like anybody to touch me, honestly. It's the one thing she craves and needs, and it's like the one thing that I can't really give her.

• 1:51Esther Perel?

  They've been together for about 11 years. They have a six-year-old daughter. And they are stuck. One woman says, "I crave to be touched. I long to be desired. I wish to be wanted." And she doesn't. And I have left already once. And here I am back again. Because will I give up a beautiful life, a family, and a deep love that we share? Because I don't have the touch, or the desire, or the sensuality that I crave? Or will I leave myself? Will I give up on that need to preserve my family? And it feels either/or.

• 2:35Esther Perel?

  Neither of the options, one that one would want to choose. And her wife says, "What she craves the most, I can't give her, so perhaps she should go." And every one of these sentences is like tight, like a rubber band, ready to snap. There is no movement possible. And it looks like they are polarized around this discrepancy of desire. One of them asexual, one of them alosexual. But perhaps there's a different way of looking at it. And I immediately choose to find the flexibility, the possibility to separate identity from behavior,

• 3:19Esther Perel?

  behavior from identity.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  We love each other very much. And we've been in and out of therapy. It helped. It helped a lot. But the main issue is still there. And I just feel like who we are to the root is very different. My needs are different, her needs are different. There's no changing us on the root. And so, do we divorce? Can we stay together? I don't know. Because I don't want to just be married to be married. I want us to be happy. And I feel like we're just stuck in this unhappiness. I mean, not constantly, or we wouldn't be together. Like, we get along very well. We parent very well. We run a household very well.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  And it's just this, the intimacy, that we just get stuck on.

• 4:18Esther Perel?

  How long have you been together?

• 4:19Speaker 03

  11 years.

• 4:20Esther Perel?

  Okay. How long has this been an issue? This, which I don't yet know what it is. But you seem to have a very clear sense of there is an issue?

• 4:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. I would say it's bothered me for probably the past six years.

• 4:36Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  But it's always been there.

• 4:39Esther Perel?

  And how old is your daughter?

• 4:41Speaker 03

  She's gonna be seven.

• 4:43Esther Perel?

  Okay. Does that coincide?

• 4:46Speaker 03

  When we had her, things changed. The little bit of intimacy that we had ended. Like, we probably had sex once a quarter. And we used to sleep in the same bed together. We used to cuddle more, we used to touch more. And I think that helped me throughout the years. And then, when she came, she's in our bed. We love being moms, you know? But she just changed things. And so, the little intimacy that we had went to her. And then it was like only sex once a quarter, plus no intimacy, no time together. Like, things shifted and changed. And then it really just started to bother me.

• 5:29Esther Perel?

  Okay. So when you say "it..."

• 5:32Speaker 03

  No sex.

• 5:33Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 5:34Speaker 03

  No intimacy.

• 5:36Esther Perel?

  No touch?

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Very little.

• 5:39Esther Perel?

  Okay. All right. You did the intro. You do the first page.

• 5:47Esther Perel?

  You don't have to necessarily pick up where she left off. But give me a sense of how you come in here and what you feel is important for us to address.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  She just thinks that I can just turn a switch on and be this passionate person. And it doesn't work that way with me. Like, I've always struggled with intimacy. And I never knew what it was. And now, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'm asexual. And I just don't crave that. Like, she wants that, and I could go without. Like, I don't need it, I don't want it, I don't crave it. So like, that's where our heads butt. But it's, I don't think she understands what that feels like. Like, I can take a pill or do a little switch, you know? I'm this whole person that she wants me to be, but I can't. It's not easy.

• 6:41Esther Perel?

  Do you really think that after 11 years, that's what she actually hopes for?

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. She tells me that she holds on to hope, that I'm gonna change.

• 6:52Esther Perel?

  That you will change, as in, that you'll become a passionate, lustful, filled with attraction person? Or that you will be sometimes willing, responsive, and engaged with her? Where's the expectation?

• 7:08Speaker 03

  I think somewhere in the middle. So I think she'd be hopeful for the most that she could have. But she'll settle for mediocre, I guess, at this point.

• 7:22Esther Perel?

  And for you?

• 7:24Speaker 03

  I think I would be somewhere in the middle. I don't think she's gonna be this... And I don't want her to be this completely different person. I love her. I just want to have an intimate life. It's not just about sex. Yes, sex is important to me. But it's also like, you know, she could go all day, a week, two weeks, without kissing or touching me. And that's so important to me.

• 7:50Esther Perel?

  And when you ask?

• 7:52Speaker 03

  She'll do it here and there, and then it just fades away. Like, it just doesn't cross her mind. Not that it's not important, but it doesn't cross her mind. And I get that it just doesn't come easy to her. But I think sometimes it's hard that I can feel like it's... It's not coming from a place of like,

• 8:13Speaker 03

  "I want to do this." It's more like, "I have to do this." And it sucks. Like, she'll say, "I'm not attracted to you, but I'm not attracted to anyone." So...

• 8:23Esther Perel?

  Okay. May I stop you? The reason I'm stopping you is because you're going to be saying things that you have said to each other over and over. And that in itself has become quite problematic.

• 8:40Esther Perel?

  The rigidity of these lines. "It's not who I am. I don't care about it. I can live without." "It's not about you. It's about anybody else. It doesn't fill my cup." You're stuck there. And the language shapes the experience. The more you repeat these words, the more entrenched you become in those very things that you're saying.

• 9:03Esther Perel?

  And one of you, at some point, will burst.

• 9:11Esther Perel?

  When I say "they are stuck," part of stuckness often involves that people go through the same repetition, the same conversation, and it doesn't go anywhere. Each time one of them says, "It doesn't fill my cup," the other person repeats, "But that's not who I am. You want me to change." And the conversation only sucks them into the ground. So I begin to look at structure, not at content. I'm thinking, it's not the issue itself that is the problem. It's the way that you have polarized around this issue that makes it impossible to move, and it's a complete impasse.

• 9:56Esther Perel?

  And so, I stop, because I have only one session. And many, many choices need to be made. What will matter? What do I need to know? What can be accomplished here in one session? And I instantly begin to think the first thing I would hope to offer is for them to get somewhat unstuck from the idea that each one is forcing the other to be different from who they are.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Probably like when our daughter was two, I left. Two or three, I left and we separated for a little while. And at that moment when I left, I felt like she didn't love me. I felt like I was not loved. All she cared about was being a mom and our life. And I felt like I was just there and it could have been anybody in my place. And that was the story I told. And my therapist said, she does love you. And I gave myself some time and then I went back. And I said, okay, like, I don't want to end it like this. Like, we had a beautiful life and we had a lot of love. So I came back and then I felt so sad inside. Like, I feel so stuck and I feel guilty leaving.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  And I feel sad for myself staying. I just feel like I can't win, no matter what choice I make. Is it a valid enough reason for me to walk away and end the marriage? Just because she doesn't sleep with me? And we give up all of this good?

• 11:29Esther Perel?

  Did it change something for both of you once you depersonalized it?

• 11:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, it would. Coming back and figuring out her asexuality, it changed a little bit, you know? It still sucks, but the story changed. Like, I know she loves me, you know?

• 11:47Esther Perel?

  But the dilemma didn't change. I feel bad for leaving. I feel sad for myself for staying.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that remains the same.

• 11:55Esther Perel?

  And for you? What's the dilemma?

• 11:59Speaker 05

  I know she's miserable because of me. But I, I don't know. Like, I feel we should just divorce because then she could find someone that fills her cup like she says. But obviously, I don't want my family separated. But she deserves to be happy.

• 12:21Esther Perel?

  But when you tell your story like this, in your head, you've created it. She wants something from me that is just not who I am, that I cannot give her. I'm depriving her. I'm making her miserable. The only way out is out. Does that summarize it?

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Pretty much.

• 12:41Esther Perel?

  Add what's missing.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  But I love her.

• 12:45Esther Perel?

  And?

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  How can you imagine? And this is for both of you, extending yourself. But not to change your identity, but to improve your relationship. You don't need to do anything to change who you are. But you may want to do certain things because it reaches out to the other.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  And you think she could really do that without changing who she is?

• 13:14Esther Perel?

  Both of you? But I'm gonna take it out of context. I'm gonna take it out of this, I'm interested, she's not. I yearn for it, she doesn't. Or I'm sexual, she's asexual. I'm aloe, she's ace. And because we think about orientation and identity in fixed ways sometimes, it actually doesn't serve the relationship. There are plenty of relationships with major differences. People who are sexually gay, emotionally mono, emotionally straight. People who live with someone who is passionate about something they couldn't care less about. And they'll go on occasion and accompany.

• 13:58Esther Perel?

  They still couldn't care less about mountain climbing. But every once in a while, they'll show up.

• 14:06Esther Perel?

  And nobody thinks that is eating up at their identity. Now, you're gonna say, but it's not the same. The structure is the same. We do things that I could totally live without. Do I on occasion do it for you? Yes. Is that a good reason? Absolutely.

• 14:26Esther Perel?

  It's because you've wired together. If you do it for me, it means you're changing. No, stay what you are and sometimes do some things for each other. You do it for her too. Because if you keep it like this, the more you will ask, the more she will retrench. And the more you will retrench, and the more you will yearn. And your little daughter in the middle is gonna become the source of affection for all. For you, because you can't get any from her. And for you, because when you touch your daughter, there are no pressures, no expectations, no lead-ons, no romantic relational or sexual expectations attached to it. And you're going to say, but you can touch her daughter and why can't you touch me?

• 15:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's just it. Because I hear from her, oh, you give her all the attention and all the hugs and cuddles, but what about me? It's not the same. And also, like, you worded it perfectly. It's, the expectation is not there.

• 15:25Esther Perel?

  At the same time,

• 15:28Esther Perel?

  the more you can on occasion reach out to her, just because you know she would really enjoy it, the less pressure you're gonna feel. You do have agency here. At this moment, your agency is primarily avoidance, to avoid the pressure. So you retrench and the more you retrench, the more pressure you're gonna get. So this is the dilemma. It's what's happening between the two of you around how you've organized around this gap, this major difference. And what you're doing is making it more rigid and less likely to change. But you have to imagine, doing for someone else is a perfectly good reason,

• 16:13Esther Perel?

  without changing oneself. Do you accommodate each other in other areas? Do there are things you do that you could perfectly live without, but?

• 16:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's, yeah.

• 16:25Esther Perel?

  Like what? Give me some, some examples. But not of we match, but of we stretch. We meet each other in the difference.

• 16:41Speaker 05

  Country music. She likes country music. I do not like it at all. But I've bought her tickets for certain artists that she listens to. I don't want to go. I would never go to those. But I go. I show up because she wants to do it.

• 16:56Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 16:56Speaker 05

  You know, and I torture myself with that music, you know?

• 17:01Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. So it's a beautiful example. Because I'm not comparing the music to the sexuality. I'm comparing the flexibility. But how did you come to do it with such ease? Because you don't feel that she's asking you to like it?

• 17:20Speaker 05

  Yeah. There's no pressure, no expectation that, oh, you, you're gonna listen to it, you're gonna like it and sing along or whatever. It's just, you show up.

• 17:32Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And on your end, you're able to be in the concert and enjoy yourself even though you know she's being tortured?

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. Um, we go to concerts, like, we listen to very different types of music.

• 17:44Esther Perel?

  What do you like?

• 17:45Speaker 05

  Everything else.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  She's like, we went to a Rihanna concert.

• 17:49Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  And I didn't care, you know? And I went and I had a great time. And we do that all the time. Like, we can throw ourselves into a situation where she likes it or I like it. And we don't have to worry about the other one getting angry or ruining the day or ruining the moment. We enjoy it.

• 18:06Esther Perel?

  Okay. What it says is you know how to do it.

• 18:11Esther Perel?

  Somehow, when it comes to sexuality.

• 18:14Speaker 03

  It's hard. It's like our only thing.

• 18:16Esther Perel?

  Right. And I'm going to suggest that you look at how you do it here. It's in the system. What creates the problem is not that you are one thing and you are other. That you define yourself as sexual, interested, craving intimacy and that you define yourself as asexual. What makes it problematic is the way that you organize around it. If she comes toward me, she's betraying herself. Then there is no movement possible. Versus, what I do maintains who I am, but I choose to do certain things because they're good for the relationship.

• 19:00Esther Perel?

  And every once in a while, I have sex or I have touch because it's good for us.

• 19:07Esther Perel?

  And you will have to learn to appreciate. The same way that if one of you doesn't care about country music and that I come because I know you like it, it doesn't change me. And this idea that I do it just because it pleases you is generous.

• 19:30Esther Perel?

  And the idea of not saying, but I want you to want it, I want you to like it. No. What I like is to do something that you like, for you.

• 19:40Speaker 03

  I just want to feel loved by her, you know?

• 19:43Esther Perel?

  Loved or desired?

• 19:45Speaker 03

  Desired, because I feel loved by her. I would say desired.

• 19:50Esther Perel?

  You are a cherished spouse and a famished lover.

• 19:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Because I do feel loved by her.

• 20:01Esther Perel?

  And you have no challenge in receiving love the way she expresses it in multiple other vocabularies? What are your main vocabularies?

• 20:12Speaker 05

  Me?

• 20:12Esther Perel?

  Hmm?

• 20:14Speaker 05

  Just like clean out her car. Little things to help her throughout her day. She misplaces lots of things. And I make sure things are where she can see them or if I know she's in a rush, I'll grab her glasses or her phone or put it by the door. Just little things like that.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  She's big on acts of service.

• 20:37Speaker 05

  But that does nothing for her.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  It doesn't, that's not true. It does.

• 20:40Esther Perel?

  Say it again?

• 20:42Speaker 05

  It doesn't.

• 20:43Esther Perel?

  Do anything for?

• 20:44Speaker 05

  Do anything for her.

• 20:47Esther Perel?

  Stop right here.

• 20:52Esther Perel?

  I'm gonna first test you one more time. Do you actually believe this?

• 20:56Speaker 03

  I guess not.

• 20:57Esther Perel?

  Okay, then stop saying it.

• 21:02Esther Perel?

  It's not true. First of all, she just said it. I feel deeply loved. If I didn't feel deeply loved, she'd be gone. The reason this is so difficult is because there's no reason to go. And yet, there is something that is gnawing inside. But if you just throw out these sentences, they're defeating sentences. No matter what I do, it's not enough. No, it's got nothing to do with it. What you do is a lot and plenty. And she also wishes that there was more physicality between the two of you. And you need to feel that that physicality doesn't come with pressure,

• 21:46Esther Perel?

  because pressure is the kiss of death of sex and intimacy and physical intimacy and even touch. That's the first thing that needs to move. And so all the sentences that involve pressure, including this one. I just caught this one. I could have caught one from her. You do this together, not to worry.

• 22:08Speaker 05

  We do it. Now we both do it.

• 22:10Esther Perel?

  You understand? You have got to clean your language of anything that will smack pressure. It's clogging. I'm gonna become the plumber for a second. Get some declugging going on. Because then she can put her hand on your knee like she does with your little girl and not think, oh, you, you, you, you, you, what comes next?

• 22:41Speaker 05

  It would be a little comment that she would make if I did that.

• 22:45Esther Perel?

  What would she say?

• 22:46Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 22:47Esther Perel?

  You never do that.

• 22:49Speaker 05

  What crawled up your ass? Are pigs flying because you touched me?

• 22:55Speaker 06

  It's more like what crawled up your ass?

• 23:00Esther Perel?

  Enjoy it. Receive it. Think whatever you want and say very little.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  That's hard for her because she likes to speak.

• 23:12Esther Perel?

  Yeah. But she is often the spokesperson too.

• 23:17Speaker 05

  That is true.

• 23:18Esther Perel?

  Right? So let's differentiate. Touch and sex and physical intimacy and desire. They all intersect, but they're not the same. And I think touch will go a long way. What would be a touch that is natural to you? That's more easy for you. Not maybe natural, but more easy for you. They are natural because you do them with your daughter. So it's not like you don't have a menu.

• 23:46Speaker 05

  True.

• 23:47Esther Perel?

  Benny, I suppose you ask yourself that sometimes too.

• 23:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, because I don't like holding hands. It feels weird to me.

• 23:54Esther Perel?

  With her or with your girl too?

• 23:56Speaker 05

  With her.

• 23:58Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 24:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, because her daughter is very affectionate. Very.

• 24:04Esther Perel?

  She better be. She's the source of it for both of you.

• 24:08Speaker 05

  She's very. And yeah, and she's a great, great mom. Very loving. You know, and she didn't have that growing up. So she didn't have something to like take with her.

• 24:19Esther Perel?

  You tell me. Your background.

• 24:21Speaker 05

  My background?

• 24:22Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm. Little bit. Just to have some context.

• 24:27Speaker 05

  So I have three other siblings. I'm a twin, so we're both the oldest. My parents are still together. My dad is very like a typical macho Mexican. Very jealous. He would hit my mom. He would sometimes chase her around the house, try to get to her. Remember one time they ran through my room? He was trying to get to her and hit her. He was very controlling. And they would hit us.

• 25:03Esther Perel?

  Both of them?

• 25:04Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. Like if we got in trouble, we would get hit. None of us were affectionate. We didn't see it, I guess, growing up. We didn't hug or didn't say they loved us or any of that.

• 25:19Esther Perel?

  Were you physical with your sister?

• 25:23Speaker 05

  No. Like hitting her?

• 25:25Esther Perel?

  No, no, no.

• 25:26Speaker 05

  Or just all physical with them?

• 25:27Esther Perel?

  Affection.

• 25:28Speaker 05

  No, no. No, not really. Like even though my dad was the one we didn't have like a great relationship with growing up, it was still like my mom that I was kind of scared of. I was scared of her, her words. And that's probably why sometimes I'm harsh. Because she can be harsh and hurtful with what she says. Even to this day, something is like, you know?

• 26:01Esther Perel?

  Or did you just remember?

• 26:04Speaker 05

  Her words. Just mean sometimes. She was just mean.

• 26:13Esther Perel?

  I mean, you just redefined violence. One type was your dad and another one that seems to have pierced you much more was your mom's. And you braced yourself for both of them. When you were in their presence, did it feel like you would tighten up physically? Embrace yourself as if to be prepared?

• 26:44Speaker 05

  I think to this day, I even brace myself for my mother because I'm bracing for impact.

• 26:52Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm. Until now, I was primarily looking at how they have created a dynamic around this difference. But each of them carried her own legacy around these issues. She is telling me the story of the cruelty, of the violence in the house, of the intrusion. The bracing is the response to the intrusion. It's like I physically can see how she would not want to be touched. She will be walking tight with her head in the shoulders and the shoulders up to the ears and the chest caved in in order to be in a protective position.

• 27:36Esther Perel?

  And what happens here is that she experiences the repeat of what happened in her family of origin. She experiences the pressure that comes with being told you're not doing it well, you're not doing it right, you're not doing it often enough. And then she gets the nasty comment, the sarcasm, which then really puts her back into a kind of a reenactment. On the other side is I want to be desired. I want to be desired. And we don't know much about her background. But there is a question that I wish I had asked, which was, tell me about what is the specificity?

• 28:16Esther Perel?

  What is uniquely about the physical expression of love through desire? Which is completely a choice of another person for who you are. And that level of being chosen is what you keep talking about. That cannot be replaced by the words of love or by the acts of service of love. It is actually non-verbal. It is often pre-verbal. And so at this moment, one hears also the legacy for each of them of how these two experiences may have been shaped. That is not to judge and that is not to pathologize, but it gives a deeper understanding as to

• 28:58Esther Perel?

  how these things may have come to be shaped in the way that they are today. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Midi Health. Interrupted sleep, headaches, fatigue? If you're a woman who's ever been kept awake researching symptoms online, check out Midi. It can help you replace those worries of what's going on with me with a conversation with a clinician who can actually help you connect the dots. Midi was built by women who've been there themselves. It's virtual care exclusively for women's hormonal health.

• 29:42Esther Perel?

  And yes, it's covered by most major insurance plans. The headaches, the sleep issues or the fatigue that won't quit, those aren't three separate problems. In perimenopause and menopause, they're often the same hormonal story. And you don't have to quietly push through. Midi can help. Remember that your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmidi.com right now to book your first visit today. That's join M I D I dot com to book your first visit. Joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 30:20Speaker 06

  Are you tired of hearing about business, tech and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters. A top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday and we decode money, power and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tiger fam.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  Hi, it's Phoebe Judge, host of Criminal. I'm going on tour. If you like hearing me tell stories about people, well, I've decided to tell stories about my life and the people I love. A letter was left carelessly around. So I was sort of caught red-handed. It's a show about secrets and forgiveness. I hope you'll come to see it. Find all our tour dates and get tickets at thisiscriminal.com/live.

• 31:22Esther Perel?

  Did you notice when she put her hand on your knee?

• 31:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:25Esther Perel?

  Did you want it to go or to stay?

• 31:29Speaker 03

  No, it was fine.

• 31:30Esther Perel?

  I didn't ask you if it was fine.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  It could stay.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  It could stay.

• 31:35Esther Perel?

  I make a distinction between asexuality and no touch. And pressure. And bracing. Each of these are separate responses. I do think sometimes when we get touched in very painful ways, we start to walk around tense. So we are prepared. So we also lose our agency. We don't know anymore what we want. It's the body response and just tenses up and holds it. And we have no time to think, do I like? Is this pleasant? Is this positive touch? Is this harmful touch? Is this touch meant to soothe me? Meant to comfort me? I'm upset.

• 32:20Esther Perel?

  She notices it. She reaches out. She does a very natural gesture that you would do to your little girl in a split second.

• 32:29Esther Perel?

  So I ask you, when she did that, because you see, she took it away because she didn't know. And she's now trained. You know?

• 32:39Esther Perel?

  Can we do it again?

• 32:41Speaker 03

  What, you touch me?

• 32:43Esther Perel?

  Yeah, just leave it there.

• 32:46Esther Perel?

  And at some point, you tell me, nothing, neutral, negative,

• 32:56Esther Perel?

  or nice?

• 32:59Speaker 03

  Neutral.

• 33:00Esther Perel?

  Neutral, okay. Okay. I just, I'm wanting to practice a moment of non-pressure touch. Keyword, pressure. Keyword, not touch. You're watching TV, or you're looking outside, or you're sitting on a bench. And you're not doing this because you need it, because you like it, because you want it. You do this because you know that's something she enjoys. And then comes the test for you. It's like, I've seen so many people who say, you never kissed me, you never kissed me. Then finally, they get a kiss and they say, what took you so long?

• 33:42Esther Perel?

  Or, don't you see how nice it is to kiss? Which version? Did I hit the right one?

• 33:47Speaker 03

  All of them.

• 33:48Esther Perel?

  All of them?

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Depends on the day, but yeah, pretty much. So I need to stop.

• 33:55Esther Perel?

  Just enjoy the kiss.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:58Esther Perel?

  Don't say, you see? Or it's not so bad? Or it's actually really nice?

• 34:04Speaker 03

  Or you haven't done that in...

• 34:06Esther Perel?

  Oh, there.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:08Esther Perel?

  Give me more. I guess, I mean, familiar territory, it's good.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  No, yeah. I mean, those are the comments I say. Like, it's been days, or, you know, finally, or stuff like that.

• 34:21Esther Perel?

  Okay. Zip it.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:27Esther Perel?

  It's like, the more you say, the more you make her become more self-conscious about it. And then it will diminish.

• 34:38Esther Perel?

  And you need to tell her, zip it nicely. Or say, that woman with the accent, she said, zip it. It doesn't help us deceive. Because if you say those things, you're not receiving anymore either.

• 34:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:56Esther Perel?

  Now, at first, you are going to test each other. Because you've gotten, you and your bodies and your breath and your shoulders have all gotten used to this derailing, the pressure coming right in.

• 35:11Esther Perel?

  Is it hard to not say anything right now?

• 35:14Speaker 03

  No, not in this moment. But another moment, I'm sure, it will test me.

• 35:20Esther Perel?

  Okay, and what would help you? That you can do and what can she do?

• 35:26Speaker 03

  I think just you saying, like, I put pressure on her, you know? And I think I have so much resentment or anger toward myself for staying, and resentment and anger toward her, that it just intensifies. Because I used to say the saying, like, my marriage is like a Saturday spent fishing. But I hate fishing. And I stopped saying that same statement, but I say other things.

• 35:54Esther Perel?

  Like?

• 35:55Speaker 03

  Just like if she were to grab me, like, I'm like, oh, finally. Or what crawled up your ass? You know, like, I say things like that and it doesn't help. Or I just ask her and then it just puts pressure on her and then it, and nothing changes. It's not like she just jumps in bed with me. You know, nothing changes and then I get more angry. She feels more pressure. And then we just live in this cycle. And so I just need to learn to, like, be quiet and not put so much pressure.

• 36:28Esther Perel?

  So on occasion, you need to tell her, could you be quiet? Have you ever done that?

• 36:34Speaker 03

  Plenty of times.

• 36:35Esther Perel?

  Plenty of times. And then what happens?

• 36:38Speaker 03

  She tells me to calm down.

• 36:41Esther Perel?

  And then?

• 36:43Speaker 03

  And then it's upsetting.

• 36:44Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  Then we're both in bad moods.

• 36:46Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  And then it just makes everything worse.

• 36:48Esther Perel?

  And then what do you do when you're in bad moods? You shut down? You explode? You...

• 36:53Speaker 03

  Nope, I'm quiet. I avoid. I keep my distance.

• 36:57Esther Perel?

  And she?

• 36:59Speaker 03

  Gets up in my ass and doesn't leave me alone.

• 37:01Esther Perel?

  So she follows after you from room to room?

• 37:05Speaker 03

  I like, more like, want a hug. And then she's just, she doesn't even like to be touched. And then now she's upset. So it like intensifies it.

• 37:15Esther Perel?

  So you retreat. You have learned that she needs to retreat. But you have a sense that it's enough retreat already. So you come after her. So now she's looking to see if you're looking, to see if she's looking, to see if you're looking.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  Pretty much, yeah. Yeah.

• 37:34Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:39Esther Perel?

  So they got the cycle. They see the dance. They see what they do. And now I want to coach them to change this in the moment. And that means one person may have to refrain from all their comments. But the other person, you have agency. It's not because you are asexual that you have no agency. That word actually becomes very important. So kindly, you will contain her. You will stop her. And you will tell her, I'm coming toward you. I'm reaching out to you. It's what you want. Don't forget it. At this moment, you need to have a conversation between you and your resentment.

• 38:25Esther Perel?

  And you need to ask your resentment to step aside for a moment so that you can actually receive the very care and closeness that you are wanting.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Like, sometimes I feel like, because we don't talk about it every day, she just forgets that I'm feeling this way. And so I feel like I have to tell her. A couple of weeks ago, we were having a great evening. We were laughing and we're just playing. In the back of my mind, I thought, like, what would it feel like for this but to go further? Like, to sleep with her that evening, you know? That would have been great. But I'm not even going to try because, like, it's going to be a no and it's just going to be a fight or it's going to be... And it's not worth it. But it, there's like this feeling inside me and then it's almost like I can't even have a good time with her because I feel like I'm betraying myself. Like, I need to tell her, hey, this is how I'm feeling.

• 39:21Speaker 03

  Even though she says she knows, I just sometimes feel like she doesn't. Or she forgets.

• 39:28Esther Perel?

  Or I have to remind myself. Not to think that because we're having a good time and I'm laughing, everything is okay.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  Maybe, yeah.

• 39:39Esther Perel?

  It's quite a common loop. What would you say?

• 39:44Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, why does she get stuck on that? Why can't it be like all the other things? That we deal with? But... Yeah, because we do.

• 39:57Esther Perel?

  Because it's important for you, as much as it's important for her to come to accept that you could live without. It's important for you to really understand the grief and the loss. And the yearning inside and the feeling of deadness that can creep up. It will be important for you to have some sense of what the experience is like for the other person. And not with guilt and not with resentment, with acknowledgement of the difference.

• 40:29Esther Perel?

  You will say, why is that so important? And you may say, why is that so not important? But that is not helpful. So it is a very difficult gap. But there are plenty of beautiful relationships that say, our weak spot has been physical intimacy. That's the one area where we never really connected.

• 40:50Esther Perel?

  And then they say what you say, but we had all these other things. So your response is to not be, you know, why are you making such a big deal? But how can we meet somewhere in a place where we do things that are for the relationship? Less than what you want, more than what you want, probably. But they're a stretch and they become the strength of the relationship and the place where you can show change, like you do in all the other areas.

• 41:22Esther Perel?

  Then you'll decide what you want to do with other partners, not on occasion, supplements, etc. You see, the same way that she says, I'm asexual, it's an identity, it's immutable, I cannot do anything about it, which is not the case. You go, I'm monogamous and this is immutable, versus I'm monogamous in a context.

• 41:45Esther Perel?

  Maybe this relationship is asking me to rethink my monogamy. To loosen it a little bit. That every once in a while, I needed something else that is not going to take place in this relationship.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Esther's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 42:17Speaker 00

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• 42:45Speaker 03

  Voters, that's you and me, need to know who's supporting the people we're voting for, because far too often, everything is not as it seems. This week on Network and Chill, we are calling out the failings of the FEC and the whole election funding system as we delve into all things campaign finance. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/yourrichbff.

• 43:10Esther Perel?

  All right, let's name three or four different kinds of touch. What are we talking about? One was the hand on the knee, but then what?

• 43:19Speaker 05

  We kiss here and there. It's quick, but we kiss.

• 43:22Esther Perel?

  On the cheek?

• 43:23Speaker 05

  No, on the lips.

• 43:24Esther Perel?

  On the lips?

• 43:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:26Esther Perel?

  Both of you?

• 43:28Speaker 05

  Yeah. We used to not like really greet each other because she doesn't really like that. But now she does a better job with it. So that's really improved throughout the years.

• 43:37Esther Perel?

  Okay. And you're able to do that without experiencing this as a threat?

• 43:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:44Esther Perel?

  You're changing, you're changing.

• 43:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:47Esther Perel?

  Good. Okay. See, that's fascinating, right? If we focus on the places where we can't do it, but we have places where you do.

• 43:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:56Esther Perel?

  So it's useful to find out what worked here. How did this little kiss that used to be so impossible become matter of fact? And is no longer threatening to change one's identity, one's orientation, one's being? It just became integrated into the fabric of our relationship. It's useful. Take the places where you've succeeded in making changes and analyze them.

• 44:26Esther Perel?

  They'll give you the cues for other things, because the process is more important than the specific, is how did we get out from this either or, all or nothing? My way, your way?

• 44:38Speaker 05

  We just kind of started doing it.

• 44:40Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 44:42Speaker 05

  I mean, we have the same goal. We want to stay together. We love each other, you know? When I think of my life, I think of it with her.

• 44:52Speaker 05

  I just want to be like desired.

• 44:55Esther Perel?

  That's a stretch. If you say, I want to feel desired, we're not in touch land. If you measure every form of touch against, am I feeling wanted and desired? It's going to be challenging.

• 45:10Esther Perel?

  So I suggest you separate touch from sexuality.

• 45:16Esther Perel?

  Of course, they meet, but you may decide if the different kinds of touch make you feel more wanted or make you feel simply loved and appreciated and seen and understood and known. There's a lot of meanings to touch. All right, so kiss, one. What's the other one?

• 45:37Speaker 05

  We hold hands here and there.

• 45:39Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. That you extend, both of you, primarily you?

• 45:44Speaker 05

  I'd say primarily me, right? Once in a while, she'll grab my hand. And then what do you say? I'll make a comment, you know?

• 45:53Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 05

  She'd say some smart remark. Oh. Or famous one, what crawled up your ass?

• 46:02Esther Perel?

  And then what do you do? She whisks your hand away?

• 46:05Speaker 05

  Like a fly.

• 46:06Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. All right. Do it again, and now come up with a different answer. One that's less reactive and gives you a sense of agency. One that's not just, okay, I did it wrong, or I tried to do something nice and you put pressure on me, or did you have to destroy this? Because you have resentment too.

• 46:28Esther Perel?

  But you don't express it, you take it in. So what would be an alternative? There's many.

• 46:37Esther Perel?

  Go ahead.

• 46:38Speaker 05

  Crawled up your ass.

• 46:40Esther Perel?

  We need to give her something to react to.

• 46:46Speaker 05

  I love you, so I'm here for you. Holding your clammy hand.

• 46:53Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:54Speaker 05

  I'm doing this for us.

• 46:58Esther Perel?

  Say it with less words, but make your statement. Let's watch that. Go ahead.

• 47:04Speaker 05

  Oh, Jesus. Oh, wow. I said that. Very sarcastically.

• 47:09Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, yes, I got the tone.

• 47:14Speaker 05

  Just like, basically, oh, you never do this. Oh, wow, look at you.

• 47:19Esther Perel?

  If she goes, oh, wow, can you imagine saying, hey, hey?

• 47:28Speaker 05

  That'll stop you in your tracks. Say it again. Oh, wow. Hey, hey.

• 47:35Esther Perel?

  That's like the chorus of a country song.

• 47:39Esther Perel?

  We should totally bring this one in.

• 47:41Speaker 05

  We should go chuckle with that one. Hey, hey. It stops me from, well, just like.

• 47:50Esther Perel?

  Squirming?

• 47:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. Shooting her like a fly.

• 47:55Esther Perel?

  When she goes with, aha, what happens to you? With the wow?

• 48:03Speaker 05

  It's just a reminder that I don't meet her needs and she's always angry. A constant reminder that I don't do these things, that like I'm failing in these, these ways. I don't hold her hand, I don't touch her, I don't do this, I don't do that. All the things I don't do. Like, I know, I know these things, I don't need to be reminded. So every time she says something, oh, wow, or, oh, look at you, oh, what crawled up your ass, it's just, I know, I know, I know. Like, don't you think I know? Like, I'm in this marriage, I know what we struggle with. I'm very well aware.

• 48:49Esther Perel?

  And that's when it becomes really sad, because you go to the, I know what I'm not doing, and you go to the, I know what I'm not feeling. I'm not desired, I'm not wanted, I'm sacrificing myself, I extinguish myself as I come here.

• 49:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:10Esther Perel?

  And it's like it puts you both from this very loving, caring, kind place into each of you feeling rather.

• 49:18Speaker 05

  Sad.

• 49:18Esther Perel?

  Yeah, shitty.

• 49:21Esther Perel?

  Shitty about yourself. And that's what's not allowing this thing to change.

• 49:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:29Esther Perel?

  And then I'm suggesting that the process, as in how you organized around this, what you just described, is what becomes the problem, not the actual difference.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  Two things are just, basically the comments, the cycle we're in is the problem, not the fact that we don't sleep together.

• 49:51Esther Perel?

  You will sleep together, or maybe less, every once in a while, but it'll be nice. And what will be nice is not that she likes it, is that she's pleased that she made you feel good and that you like it, like you will do a lot of other nice things for each other. And it may not be the kind of sex you would want, and you will decide if that is enough for you in life, but you won't feel like our marriage is constantly questioning its existence.

• 50:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:22Esther Perel?

  And it's all or nothing. I either lose her or I lose me, or a part of me. I either lose me in order to please you, or I lose you. That in itself is unmanageable.

• 50:39Esther Perel?

  You won't have sex because you enjoy having sex. That is not the thing. You will hopefully not feel sickened by it. And you will have the kind of sex that is more enjoyable or less not enjoyable. And that's an exploration that's physical, that is not talk therapy. You know, you've talked plenty.

• 51:03Esther Perel?

  Hey, hey is very good, because it says, we're not going down that rabbit hole. Stop.

• 51:12Esther Perel?

  And then you can even tell her, my hand is right here. You want to enjoy it?

• 51:21Esther Perel?

  And there her a little bit. So now we're changing the tone of this, because it's become quite rigid and dry and serious and repetitive. It is playing with it so that, you know, aha, hey, hey.

• 51:38Esther Perel?

  Anything that prevents you from going into the rut, that's tail made.

• 51:53Esther Perel?

  They identify themselves as asexual and asexual, but that doesn't mean that I would know what they mean by that. So it's actually very important to just first of all, ask for each person to define themselves, to identify what that experience is like for them. Very often, asexual people experience pleasure, can enjoy touch. They don't necessarily experience attraction. They can feel tremendous romantic love, which is what is happening in between the two of them here as well. And in the conversation that I have with Jean Malpas that accompanies this episode, I actually went to look for one of my dear colleagues, who is also a couples and family

• 52:34Esther Perel?

  therapist specializing in the areas of gender and sexuality, who knows a lot about this. And I just wanted to get his take on the session. So it will be very interesting to listen to how he specifies a certain lens to understand her asexuality as an orientation. And he sees the couple as a lesbian couple with mixed orientations. So that gives it a frame that is very useful in terms of what are the possibilities that they can develop together? And what is the vocabulary for each of them to experience connection, closeness, and intimacy?

• 53:17Esther Perel?

  My conversation with Jean Malpas will be out at the end of this week, and I invite all of you subscribers and all of you potential subscribers to go listen.

• 53:38Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.