I Don't Mean to Be Mean, But...

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? She has no boundaries, he’s walled off. And their opposing communication styles cause immediate tension in this explosive session. So much so, that Esther finds herself adding to the chorus of angry voices. There might only be three people in this session, but Esther realizes she needs at least three more chairs for the in-laws whose voices and opinions are always playing in the background of this marriage. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Lately, we've been thinking about the way our bodies are changing and how those changes are showing up in relationships. So maybe that's you're taking GLP-1s, or your best friend is, or you've started HRT, or you're losing your hair, or your libido, or you've pondered cosmetic treatments, or maybe you're obsessed with optimizing or fitness. Whatever is happening in your body, we want to know what those changes are bringing up for you. Are they affecting your confidence, your desire, or how you relate to your partner? If there's something that's happening in your body that you want to talk through with Esther, write to us. Just send a voice note or an email to [email protected]. And thank you.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 1:24Esther Perel?

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• 2:06Speaker 02

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• 2:45Speaker 03

  I thought that to get married, you have a baby. It's like, that's, you know, the right thing to do. That's what you're supposed to do. My Jewish mother was always like, you'll never have to worry. If you marry him, you'll have a baby. You'll have a great life. And now I'm married and I have a baby. I thought that was like when everything would be good.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  My wife was pregnant, and that's when I became unemployed. My father started a business and was very successful. And I worked for him for the first seven years of my career. We had a startup and we exited. And this all seemed to happen at the worst time. Just when the pandemic started, it was difficult for me to get a job elsewhere.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  There's no real financial clarity on anything. I don't know what's happening. I feel like so alone with this man that I married. He's just kind of a, I don't want to say this word, but I feel like he's kind of a dud.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  My wife can't really hold the secret in. And if she's feeling something, she'll say it. It's just that our conversations don't really end up going anywhere because we have so much. I know exactly what she's going to say next. She knows what I'm going to say. And when we do interact, she gets very mean. She calls me names. You know, that later affects our sex life. We've never been very sexual.

• 4:22Speaker 03

  I'm only 32 years old, guys. I just don't know if it's a make it or break it thing. And like, I know right now, if I didn't have a baby with my husband, it would be 100% over because I'm so deeply unhappy. And I'm so afraid. I don't know what to do.

• 4:46Esther Perel?

  What I know about this couple is that they are in their early 30s. They are recently married. They have had a baby during this pandemic year, who's almost a year old. They are at loggerheads. They each blame the other for their disillusionment. She has plummeted from the Olympian expectations that she had about marriage and family life. And he is no less disillusioned. But doesn't feel that he has any leg to stand on to make any demand at this moment.

• 5:24Esther Perel?

  Tell me something. If this was a helpful conversation and you left tears and you said, this really moved the needle, what would it be? What needs to happen?

• 5:40Speaker 04

  I don't know, maybe finding some middle ground? Or coming up with a plan? Yeah, I think I would find that helpful if you recommended what to do.

• 5:50Esther Perel?

  Okay. So I have license to be more direct. I have license to help you be unstuck.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:57Esther Perel?

  I can't do anything without you. So this is an us.

• 6:00Speaker 05

  I just want to know if it's broken. Like, should we, like, do we have to be separated? Is this, is this going to work? I don't know if this is situational thing or if we literally have, I'm sorry. I don't want to be mean. But if this is the kind of thing where it's hopeless, you are better off as co-parents and moving on. This is the conversation that we have. And then I go to my mom, and my mom will tell me one thing. And I go to my brother and my grandmother.

• 6:27Esther Perel?

  You know what I thought? When I read your application, I thought that next to you, I probably should put another three chairs, minimum.

• 6:37Speaker 05

  So bad, it's so true.

• 6:38Esther Perel?

  Because you show up with a chorus.

• 6:41Speaker 05

  It's like every person I talk to.

• 6:44Esther Perel?

  So basically, he rarely has a conversation with you alone.

• 6:48Speaker 05

  He does, but then I go back and I tell everyone.

• 6:50Esther Perel?

  Yeah, so he doesn't.

• 6:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:52Esther Perel?

  He doesn't. When he talks to you, he hears a cacophony.

• 6:59Esther Perel?

  What is immediately apparent when I sit in front of them is that she is surrounded by a cast of characters, family members with whom she's very fused and with whom she discusses every detail of her relationship. For every thought, she knows all their thoughts. To the point where she has no idea what she actually thinks, where she begins and where she ends. And when I look at him, I see a man who is very alone and who has always been very alone. There are no boundaries on her side. One could describe her as boundaryless. And one could describe him as walled off.

• 7:43Speaker 04

  You mind if I speak on that a little bit?

• 7:45Speaker 05

  I'm sorry, yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 04

  So.

• 7:47Esther Perel?

  You are being very polite.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  So she and her mother have always been best friends and spent a ton of time together. Mother comes over every day. Sometimes she asks me, but you know, it happens regardless. As it relates to things we discuss about parenting, we end up doing what the mom says. And I don't really get a voice.

• 8:15Esther Perel?

  How old is your kid?

• 8:16Speaker 04

  He's one.

• 8:18Esther Perel?

  Do you have a picture?

• 8:20Speaker 04

  Of her mom? Oh, yeah.

• 8:26Esther Perel?

  Oh, God.

• 8:27Speaker 05

  Show the one that's there.

• 8:28Esther Perel?

  He really is a central figure. I understood.

• 8:33Speaker 05

  That's not a good pick.

• 8:35Esther Perel?

  Okay, so you see, this little boy, he's watching you.

• 8:39Speaker 05

  I know, it's so bad.

• 8:41Esther Perel?

  And he's learning from you.

• 8:45Esther Perel?

  And you keep thinking that the challenge is between you and him.

• 8:51Speaker 05

  But it is.

• 8:54Esther Perel?

  And maybe not. This relationship is experiencing all the tension that is produced by your allegiances with all these other people, to the point where it's not really sure who is married to whom.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  But the problem is, there's no stopping me. I've never really had to sit with my own emotions, so.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  And as a result, she can't, she's very indecisive. She can't make a decision because she's relied on someone else to help her. Um, she is very insecure because she relies on someone else to say, you look skinny, or, um, and so many things, uh, you know, self-esteem, it's come down to the codependent relationship.

• 9:41Esther Perel?

  You know what's interesting? Every time one of you talks about the other.

• 9:45Speaker 05

  You wince.

• 9:47Esther Perel?

  Yes, so why do you continue?

• 9:51Speaker 05

  Continue what?

• 9:54Esther Perel?

  Taking over and saying, let me describe you because I can describe you better than you can describe yourself.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  Because I felt that she would not, uh, most accurately touch upon her relationship with her mother.

• 10:10Esther Perel?

  I know. Why didn't you wait and see first?

• 10:13Speaker 04

  That is a good point, but we've had this conversation before.

• 10:17Esther Perel?

  I know, and I'm trying to see if you're capable of having a different conversation. I, I, I have a sense of the stories that you both tell. And interestingly, when you wince, when it kind of feels like chalk on a blackboard, neither of you just says, maybe I should stop.

• 10:39Esther Perel?

  It's intrusive.

• 10:43Esther Perel?

  It belittles the other person.

• 10:46Speaker 05

  I hate to be, I hate to, I know this sounds mean, but sometimes when I hear him speak about my situation, I'm so shocked because I'm like, you're so out of touch with the actual problem. That, or he'll simplify it in a way that's really belittling. And then, that's why I'm like.

• 11:05Esther Perel?

  I know, but you were doing the exact same thing. You were doing the exact same thing. And you have got to look at what you each do. You're experts on each other.

• 11:19Esther Perel?

  But you're not owning your own parts.

• 11:25Esther Perel?

  Let's make one little agreement here.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:28Esther Perel?

  There's gonna be a boundary. And each of you is going to talk for yourselves.

• 11:35Speaker 04

  It's a good idea.

• 11:41Esther Perel?

  We've only been together ten minutes in which he's able to speak to the fact that she's indecisive, that she is unable to have a conversation with him. And she talks about how he belittles her and how he simplifies everything. And the dynamic of attack and defense is quite immediately apparent. They are stuck in a very rigid cycle of blame and defense. Each one is so-called expert on the shortcomings of the other. I understand now why he said that he knows what she's gonna say and she knows what he's gonna say. There's no point in having a conversation

• 12:27Esther Perel?

  because there is no conversation because each one is actually speaking for the other.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  I think there's a lack of respect because of the way that things have deteriorated the past few years.

• 12:39Esther Perel?

  So.

• 12:40Speaker 05

  And I wish it wasn't like that.

• 12:43Esther Perel?

  It, it's not I wish.

• 12:47Esther Perel?

  If you want to restore the respect, you have got to do it.

• 12:53Speaker 05

  But I feel like things have to change.

• 12:54Esther Perel?

  No, not things. Things is you and him and what you create together.

• 13:02Speaker 05

  But in my mind, I don't think he's acting in a way that would.

• 13:06Esther Perel?

  Do your part.

• 13:09Esther Perel?

  Start with you. I will tell you one of the interesting secrets of any couples' therapy.

• 13:21Esther Perel?

  Things change when you start to say what you are doing and how you are changing. As long as you each come in and you start to talk about what the other person is doing wrong and how they need to change, nothing will move. That's it.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  But I think we have real problems, like a lack of complete intimacy for years.

• 13:50Speaker 05

  One person not working for a long time, hiding money and, I mean, I work a full-time job. I also freelance because I'm so in the dark about a financial situation around how we're gonna raise a child. But somehow, everything is getting paid for. I have no clue how. He is not working and I'm petrified. I'm like, how are we gonna make money? How are we gonna be able, you know, my income isn't enough? I'm trying so hard to think of everything I can do so that he finds himself.

• 14:22Esther Perel?

  I see how difficult it can be for him to think in her presence. But I'm also immediately aware of how desperate and frustrated she feels, how disillusioned, how far from all the beautiful things she thought her life would be. And here she finds herself saddled with responsibilities, wanting to do the best for everyone, fearing that she can't count on him. She is overwhelmed while he may be flooded and feeling ineffective.

• 14:57Esther Perel?

  And I will say, it's easy when one hears the shrill to dismiss the request and the longing because of the style in which it is expressed. Her requests all manifest as protests. And yet, her requests are deep and real and valid. And it's also easy to think that her stress and her anxiety is internal and purely a manifestation of her personality rather than her manifestation of the relational system in which she's living.

• 15:37Esther Perel?

  When five other people inhabit her internal life, the anxiety gets compounded.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  So perhaps I could give you a little background to my work situation?

• 15:53Esther Perel?

  I know that you worked with your dad for about ten years. I know that you sold the company. And I know that, um, since then you have not, um, found a new gig.

• 16:09Esther Perel?

  Your career is one thing. And what is the financial situation between the two of you?

• 16:17Speaker 04

  Um, so I could be making anywhere.

• 16:20Speaker 05

  That's not what she's asking. She's asking about the trust funds I don't know about.

• 16:25Speaker 04

  Okay, that's not the case. The, the financial, um, situation, which I have,

• 16:32Speaker 04

  I've, I've collected all the papers.

• 16:34Speaker 05

  Besides the paperwork that you get? There's so many other trusts that your father has that he won't tell you about.

• 16:40Esther Perel?

  I'm just asking a very simple question. What do you live on? And do you have a shared sense of what you are living on and where it's coming from?

• 16:51Speaker 04

  So I've had trusts before. Um, I told her exactly how much, uh, they, they were for when I received them. And she, I told her how much, uh, savings we have. I have.

• 17:07Esther Perel?

  Hold on one second, because you're trying something and you are not listening to a word he's saying.

• 17:18Speaker 05

  Because it's not true.

• 17:19Esther Perel?

  You see, it's very interesting. And if you're not cringing and wincing, then when one of you talks, the other person shakes their head.

• 17:35Speaker 05

  Because the amount of money he's talking about? The thing you're missing is your father doesn't tell you the true finances because he doesn't want you to know because he thinks it's gonna make him not have any ambition. So that's a huge problem.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  So.

• 17:47Esther Perel?

  And now, we did the same thing on the other side. You don't trust, he's gonna tell, so you bring in what you consider the missing pieces like you did just before, just in case you wonder, because you're annoyed right now. And you don't like the fact that she just kind of dismisses what you say. But this was kind of the same thing in reverse. And I am sitting here and I'm, you know, you're punching and I'm like feeling the tension in my own belly.

• 18:23Esther Perel?

  We're having a conversation about their financial situation, but it really is not about the topic itself. It doesn't matter if they're talking about sex or money or in-laws. What happens in this intense moment of dysregulation is that nobody is listening to anything the other person is saying. One person talks and the other person cringes in their seat, rolls their neck, shakes their head, their breath goes short, their whole body is expressing the overwhelm, the inability to accept a different reality than their own.

• 19:08Esther Perel?

  And each one is registering the other as creating deep distress inside of them and then not knowing what to do with it. And so it's impossible for each of them to say anything. The whole thing is one big escalation in a form of emotional sadism between the two of them.

• 19:38Esther Perel?

  I want to understand money, sex, family. But the topics won't matter if every time one of you talks, the other one shakes their hands.

• 19:49Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 19:50Esther Perel?

  Because all what will matter is the dismissal with which you respond to each other.

• 19:58Speaker 05

  It's just hard for me because he speaks so slowly and I feel like I'm so high energy. I always just want to get the facts across.

• 20:05Esther Perel?

  What the fact I see is that when he talks, you are shaking next to him so he can barely keep his mind straight.

• 20:13Speaker 05

  I know, I'm so angry.

• 20:14Esther Perel?

  I don't care the subject. Yes, but you don't know, you know, you collect, you collect. Anything else I could be angry about?

• 20:24Speaker 05

  Because he knows every single thing about my finances. And I don't understand how we're fine because the numbers he tells me, they don't match up.

• 20:31Esther Perel?

  If you want her to stop, you need to ask her.

• 20:34Speaker 05

  I'm sorry.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  I believe that that is...

• 20:37Esther Perel?

  No, no, you need to do it.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  May I stop you?

• 20:39Speaker 05

  Sure, I'm sorry.

• 20:41Esther Perel?

  Not "may I stop you."

• 20:45Speaker 05

  I know, he's so beaten down from me. I feel horrible, but I'm also angry.

• 20:49Esther Perel?

  Not "may I stop you."

• 20:53Speaker 04

  What should I say?

• 20:55Speaker 05

  Just stop me.

• 20:56Esther Perel?

  I want to describe my situation myself.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 20:59Esther Perel?

  And could you please

• 21:03Esther Perel?

  make the effort of managing your impatience? And give me a courtesy of explaining my own situation.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  All that?

• 21:16Esther Perel?

  No, no, you don't borrow. You have to do it.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  Give me the courtesy of explaining my own situation.

• 21:23Speaker 05

  Home. Sorry.

• 21:25Speaker 04

  So, uh, that...

• 21:27Esther Perel?

  It was good. You brought.

• 21:31Esther Perel?

  The goal at this moment is really not to help them talk about money or their financial situation. The goal is for them to develop some basic skills about regulating together so they don't escalate. When he feels usurped, that she took over because she doesn't trust he can tell his own story and she can do a better job at it, and he wants to reclaim it, he has to take it kindly, respectfully, and assertively so he can draw the boundary of "I own my story and I will tell it as I see it."

• 22:14Esther Perel?

  And I ask that you make space for me to do so and hopefully can hear it. And then I will hear your reaction to it. So we start with very basic work around the boundaries, the delineation, the demarcation between the two of them. It goes so fast, each one cutting the other person off. I can barely keep it straight. And I start to experience the same dysregulation inside myself. I've been there before and it's not a good place to be

• 22:56Esther Perel?

  because I start to lose my therapeutic stance. I begin to act with them the way they act with each other. I'm inducted into the system.

• 23:13Esther Perel?

  Can you describe your relationship with your parents?

• 23:17Speaker 04

  Um, my father, it's, um, it's pretty tricky working with a family member, working for a family member. And seeing him every day in the office, he's my boss. Um, at home, he's my father.

• 23:35Esther Perel?

  That's a challenge.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  It is a big challenge. And for my brother, um, who is in that situation, that drove them apart.

• 23:45Esther Perel?

  Your family is primarily four people?

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 23:50Esther Perel?

  If there was a family photo?

• 23:54Speaker 05

  There's remarriage, divorce.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, my father remarried and had a, a daughter.

• 24:03Esther Perel?

  He had a daughter?

• 24:06Speaker 05

  There's new wife.

• 24:08Esther Perel?

  So your father and your mother divorced?

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Divorced, yes. I'm sorry, I forgot that.

• 24:12Esther Perel?

  And your father remarried and you have a stepsister?

• 24:17Speaker 04

  Um, yes.

• 24:19Esther Perel?

  And how old were you when your parents separated?

• 24:23Speaker 04

  I was around thirteen.

• 24:27Esther Perel?

  And how was that?

• 24:29Speaker 04

  It was, um, a lot of change. Um, also considering we were living in the suburbs and, um, after the divorce, we moved to the city. Um, so it was just a lot of change very quickly. I had to find new friends, um, deal with the two houses situation.

• 24:52Esther Perel?

  So you were uprooted?

• 24:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 05

  Can you, I, I think it's important you talk about your father, your relationship with him, like, like how cold and scary it is.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  So...

• 25:04Esther Perel?

  Can I stop you one sec?

• 25:06Speaker 04

  That's a good point.

• 25:07Esther Perel?

  How did that feel?

• 25:08Speaker 04

  That was a good point.

• 25:09Esther Perel?

  That was really nice.

• 25:10Speaker 05

  That was nice?

• 25:11Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 25:11Speaker 05

  I thought it was mean.

• 25:12Esther Perel?

  No. No, that was, this would be helpful.

• 25:18Speaker 05

  I think it is helpful because it's...

• 25:19Esther Perel?

  And it was passing it on to him. It felt caring. No, it didn't feel mean. What did you feel?

• 25:28Speaker 05

  I felt like I was being more respectful towards him.

• 25:30Esther Perel?

  Okay, you were.

• 25:35Esther Perel?

  You were. Doesn't mean you don't have things you want to put in it, but it, it felt more respectful, yes. And he felt it and he took it and he said, "Yes, let me do that."

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Because...

• 25:50Esther Perel?

  I just want to emphasize when you do it in a different way and in a way that obviously leads to a different outcome. I don't want you to just see the places where you miss each other. That was just a nice micro moment.

• 26:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:07Esther Perel?

  In distressed relationships, the filters only keep the stuff that is negative. And so it's very important when they have a shift in the interaction that is kinder, more caring, more soft, more tender, to highlight it because sometimes it's such a wash that even they don't notice the difference. They're so used to the punches that their skin has become thick and they no longer feel the soft caresses.

• 26:42Esther Perel?

  And this was a moment of a soft caress.

• 26:51Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 27:03Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from QUO. When you call a business and nobody picks up, you probably move on to the next business who will. That's why today's episode is brought to you by QUO, spelled Q U O, the business phone system built so you never miss a call. All your calls, texts, and voicemails live in one place so anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history, and respond fast. QUO is trusted by over ninety thousand businesses who rely on it to stay reachable and look professional every day. Setup takes just a few minutes and you can keep your existing number and add teammates as you grow. QUO also has an optional built-in AI agent

• 27:46Esther Perel?

  who can handle after our calls, answer questions, and even book appointments, even when your team is offline. Money is on the line. Always say hello with QUO. Try QUO for free plus get twenty percent off your first six months when you go to quo.com/begin, spelled Q U O dot com slash begin.

• 28:10Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Babbel. Approaching someone in their native tongue can open up a whole new dimension of communication. Even if you're not fluent yet yourself, it's the effort that counts and it makes the conversation feel even more meaningful to all parties involved. That's why Babbel is built around real-life conversations, not random vocabulary lists or endless grammar drills. This summer, I had to travel to Brazil to give a talk and I wanted to refresh my vocabulary and my fluency and my ease with the language. And I was reconnected with one of my favorite words in Portuguese, saudade, that describes the feeling of deep longing for something that's gone

• 28:54Esther Perel?

  or maybe something that never was, a word you find in so many of the bossa nova songs. So Babbel was there to help me with that. Start learning a new language today with Babbel. Right now, listeners can save up to sixty percent off at babbel.com/esther. That's babbel, B A B B E L dot com slash esther for up to sixty percent off. Rules and restrictions may apply.

• 29:24Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business requires you to be resourceful and the more you flex that muscle, the more you start to recognize growth opportunities, like using Shopify to launch your business. And that's especially true if you launch with Black Friday approaching so you can take advantage of the extra online traffic. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable, holiday-selling season for businesses at every stage. Their pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking website. And you don't even need to touch a line of code to do it. They also have a mobile app that lets you run your online store from anywhere.

• 30:07Esther Perel?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify dot com slash esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify dot com slash esther. Go to Shopify dot com slash esther today to hear your first...

• 30:27Esther Perel?

  Did you have to choose between your parents when they divorced?

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Did I have to choose?

• 30:33Speaker 04

  No.

• 30:36Speaker 04

  My father, I guess, kind of made the decision for us. He wasn't around as much.

• 30:46Esther Perel?

  And how was that for you?

• 30:48Speaker 04

  I was young, I didn't really understand it at the time. He was supposedly also sick for three years or something. I remember walking into his apartment and the lights would be off and he'd be in bed. It was a sad thing.

• 31:05Esther Perel?

  So you lost your father rather suddenly.

• 31:10Esther Perel?

  You lost your life, you lost your friend, you lost your town, and you found yourself suddenly all alone.

• 31:22Esther Perel?

  Then you learned not to ask for much.

• 31:28Speaker 04

  I don't ask for much.

• 31:30Esther Perel?

  That's right.

• 31:33Speaker 04

  But I did have my mother, who had her own health issues as well.

• 31:40Speaker 04

  When I was in middle school, maybe early high school, she had thyroid issues. She didn't know about it for a while, so she was depressed in bed. She didn't get up until like 11:00 a.m. each day. And I was in, and I was in the kitchen.

• 31:59Esther Perel?

  Take her hand.

• 32:02Speaker 04

  And I was in the kitchen. Trying. And I was in the kitchen making cereal all by myself.

• 32:08Esther Perel?

  Eat over here.

• 32:11Esther Perel?

  That's it, and press on it.

• 32:15Speaker 05

  He has to feed himself all the time. And take the food.

• 32:19Esther Perel?

  No, no. He will tell.

• 32:22Speaker 05

  He was too skinny.

• 32:22Esther Perel?

  It's his life and he will tell his story. They think they can talk for you, but you will not talk for him. I will not find that really helpful if you do that.

• 32:36Speaker 04

  I know you think that I'm going slow, but by you doing that, it gets slower.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  So I had to feed myself every morning for three, four years. And she never saw her in the morning.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  So I guess that would be my story.

• 32:57Esther Perel?

  And it's a story that tells what about you?

• 33:07Speaker 04

  It's a story that I like to keep my emotions inside.

• 33:14Esther Perel?

  Because?

• 33:18Speaker 04

  Because I've never had a great support system.

• 33:22Esther Perel?

  Because I had no one to go to.

• 33:24Speaker 05

  So sad.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  And there had a chorus.

• 33:29Esther Perel?

  You were really alone

• 33:33Esther Perel?

  and too young to have to parent yourself. You needed parents.

• 33:39Speaker 05

  That's why you eat bagel bites all the time. He still eats Hot Pockets. I don't blame you, that's the thing, I feel bad.

• 33:47Esther Perel?

  I know you do, but you need to give him the space right now.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  I'm sorry.

• 33:56Esther Perel?

  It is a dynamic in which she is a constant pursuer and he is a withdrawer. He doesn't know to claim the space and she doesn't know how to give the space. And I'm going back and forth between her stepping back and allowing him to just tell the story of his own family. And with him, it's two things. On the one hand, it's a boundary by which he then claims his own story. And on the other hand, it's his holding her hand so that he can talk about how alone he was and felt without having to be alone in the moment.

• 34:38Esther Perel?

  I know it looks like I'm asking you about background, which I am, but I'm also learning where you learn to be the way you are. And that is what's happening to you today.

• 34:53Esther Perel?

  You

• 34:58Esther Perel?

  in fact chose in such an interesting way. You chose someone who completely knows to reach out, who completely can ask for help, who never thinks her needs are irrelevant, and who has a chorus of people.

• 35:20Esther Perel?

  And she chose someone who actually makes sure that her chorus remains on the orchestra seat while you get balcony. She'll complain about you being in the balcony. But in fact, if you actually were as voiceful and voluble as these people, it would be mayhem.

• 35:42Speaker 04

  A lot of people say that I calm her down. I make her not so anxious and not so nervous.

• 35:51Esther Perel?

  You can, you can ground her?

• 35:54Speaker 04

  I try.

• 35:58Speaker 05

  And then there's negatives to that, there's...

• 36:01Esther Perel?

  You won't know when things get better if you continue to shake your head even when he's doing exactly what you keep asking him to do.

• 36:10Speaker 05

  What I want him to do is get a job and be functional and be independent and be interested in the world and curious and...

• 36:18Esther Perel?

  I know.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  That's what I want.

• 36:20Esther Perel?

  I know. And you think he doesn't?

• 36:22Speaker 05

  No, he doesn't, it's been such a long time. If that was me, if I didn't have a job, I would freak out. I would be up all night and I would get one in two weeks.

• 36:34Speaker 05

  I don't understand the relaxed nature of things and...

• 36:38Esther Perel?

  But if you steamroll him, you're gonna get the person who is all shriveled up next to you. And you will think that it's because he is a shriveled up nincompoop. And you will not notice that you're steamrolling at the same time because you think that when he's quiet, he's relaxed.

• 37:00Esther Perel?

  You explode, he implodes, there's nothing relaxed about that.

• 37:06Esther Perel?

  And as I'm listening to this again myself, I realize that I was doing to her what I was telling her she was doing to him. And that's when I knew I'm inducted in the system. I'm talking to them with the same tone as they talk to each other. This is where I felt that I had lost some of my therapeutic stance. That said, therapy is filled with surprises. Sometimes I think I've done the most beautiful intervention and it falls completely flat. And sometimes I cringe at my voice or at my tone

• 37:48Esther Perel?

  or at my own interventions, thinking that was so not helpful. And then I find out that actually that landed exactly where it needed to land.

• 38:01Esther Perel?

  And that is an unknown that every therapist lives with.

• 38:06Esther Perel?

  But she is telling you that it's very challenging to be with you because she feels that all the energy in the house comes through her to you experience yourself, deflated, unmotivated, without a reason to get up in the morning if you didn't have your little one. I mean, how do you see yourself in your situation? And do you understand how your situation affects her?

• 38:39Speaker 04

  So much so that I feel guilty about the fact. And so everything she asks of me, hey, stop drinking juice, drink only water. I'll drink only water or, hey, stop doing this.

• 38:54Speaker 05

  Stop drinking Gatorade, it's bad for you.

• 38:56Speaker 04

  Stop doing this bad habit, I'll do it. Stop doing this bad habit, I'll do it.

• 39:01Esther Perel?

  And I do it because?

• 39:03Speaker 04

  Because I feel guilty.

• 39:04Esther Perel?

  That?

• 39:05Speaker 04

  That I don't have a job.

• 39:10Esther Perel?

  Say more. Say more.

• 39:14Speaker 04

  Say more?

• 39:15Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  Well, I can say that all the things that I'm changing that she doesn't like, I mean. And, you know, occasionally I have asked her to do a few things that will help her become a better mother.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  That's not fair.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  And she has not been able to do them.

• 39:41Esther Perel?

  Okay, but I'm... I'm ill concerned

• 39:46Esther Perel?

  that

• 39:49Esther Perel?

  what you just did is called kitchen sinking.

• 39:55Esther Perel?

  What other dirty dishes can we pile up in the sink at the same time?

• 40:03Esther Perel?

  We're just talking about

• 40:07Esther Perel?

  you and your feelings about yourself vis-à-vis work, and also your feeling guilty toward her about how she has to crank it up because you are currently not working and unable to reassure her because your own dad doesn't seem to be able to reassure you.

• 40:27Speaker 04

  My father reassures me.

• 40:28Esther Perel?

  Well, then, why don't you reassure her?

• 40:30Speaker 04

  I do.

• 40:32Esther Perel?

  I've heard her say four times right now that she worries about the rent. Why don't you answer?

• 40:37Speaker 05

  Your father said he'll pay her rent for six months. This is the six month.

• 40:42Speaker 05

  I can't afford the rent with my income.

• 40:44Speaker 04

  If I ask him to pay more, he'll pay more.

• 40:47Speaker 05

  But I don't want that. I want to be functional together.

• 40:49Esther Perel?

  That's a separate piece.

• 40:51Speaker 05

  I don't want your father to give us money.

• 40:52Speaker 04

  Maybe we need a little help until I get a job.

• 40:57Speaker 05

  I just figure like...

• 40:58Esther Perel?

  Do you understand?

• 41:00Speaker 05

  No, I don't really.

• 41:01Esther Perel?

  It's like when you wanna know that you will not be homeless and he tells you, "We are wealthy people. We will have our rent paid." That is not the same as you saying, "But I want us to be able to pay our own bills." Those are two separate issues. When he answers you on A, you tell him, "But what about B?" When he answers you on B, you tell him, "But what about C?" That's the kitchen sinking. Or you wanna talk about something? Well, let's add this to the pot. And if you pile up every dirty dish on top of each other, you will not solve a thing. You wanna know if you should stay together or not? It doesn't really matter because this is going to destroy you

• 41:47Esther Perel?

  and this little boy who desperately needs you to do better.

• 41:53Esther Perel?

  You can stay together, but if you stay together like this, that's miserable.

• 41:57Speaker 05

  It's horrible.

• 41:57Esther Perel?

  And you can separate, but he will be miserable because you will not have changed.

• 42:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:04Esther Perel?

  The point is not should you be together or not. The point is how do we change this dynamic because it is eating us up alive.

• 42:20Esther Perel?

  And your experiences are completely valid, each of you, but you're blaming the other the whole time. Can you start actually from the place like what she did before was actually very beautiful? I feel for him when he tells me that he's struggling and you're struggling.

• 42:43Speaker 04

  Um, so I'll start off the way that she has. I feel for her because...

• 42:50Esther Perel?

  For?

• 42:52Speaker 04

  For her.

• 42:53Esther Perel?

  You.

• 42:54Speaker 04

  I feel for you because you have so much anxiety.

• 43:01Speaker 05

  My anxiety is a symptom of the environment. I'm not a chronically anxious person. I'm able to like live and function.

• 43:08Speaker 04

  You are chronically anxious. You have been anxious, you were anxious about the engagement party to the point where you couldn't sleep.

• 43:16Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 43:16Speaker 04

  And then you're anxious about the next thing. You said, "Oh, as long as we have a wedding, uh, as we book a wedding place, I'll be fine." And you're anxious about the next thing. And then that goes by and you're anxious about having a baby. Always anxious, always anxious. And it's so much anxiety and I guess I'm the opposite. Right. I'm the opposite and I calmer down, but sometimes I feel...

• 43:45Esther Perel?

  And the opposite meaning what?

• 43:47Speaker 04

  Um, I try to be a pillar of strength. So when she's uncertain, like she is about whether or not we'll get evicted and be homeless, um, I reassure her.

• 44:02Esther Perel?

  And you succeed?

• 44:03Speaker 04

  Sometimes.

• 44:04Speaker 05

  Oh, unless I see numbers on a sheet that account for how we can pay for the rent outside of just my income, because you know everything about me, my income. You know everything. I've given you everything. I recently stopped because I don't wanna, in case something happens, I don't know.

• 44:20Esther Perel?

  But you're going off again, both of you.

• 44:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't, we're...

• 44:23Esther Perel?

  It's very, very, uh, entrenched.

• 44:29Esther Perel?

  You know, you try and you start and it looks like, "Oh, maybe he can actually cross the bridge for a moment and see what it's like." But no, it's a sense of just, "I understand what you're saying." Rather than the reason you feel the way you do is because there's something wrong with you.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  I guess that is, uh, the route we saw in how to improve ourselves, but I guess it's not.

• 45:02Speaker 05

  You're right.

• 45:10Speaker 05

  I, I have to be honest. I have so much, I'm so angry that it's clouded my entire, the whole way I treat him. It's, I feel awful, but I just feel...

• 45:19Esther Perel?

  Yes. So when you talk about how you feel bad, that he feels so weakened and emasculated by, you know, I just have to say, you're doing a good job.

• 45:33Speaker 05

  At emasculating him.

• 45:34Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 45:34Speaker 05

  I know.

• 45:35Esther Perel?

  I'm so sorry, but it, it goes two ways.

• 45:39Speaker 05

  I, I'm, I've been sensitive to that for like many years because this has been... Before we decided to have a child, I sat down,

• 45:49Speaker 05

  actually went home to cry to my grandparents. My grandfather said, "You need to get a divorce. Like, it's never gonna work."

• 45:55Esther Perel?

  But your parents and grandparents and chorus and the whole shtetl that comes with it first got you to this place.

• 46:04Speaker 05

  I know. They loved him.

• 46:06Esther Perel?

  Right?

• 46:06Speaker 05

  Loved him.

• 46:06Esther Perel?

  So are we going to be able to regulate the volume here a little bit?

• 46:12Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 46:12Esther Perel?

  At what point do you get angry with the people who are also choking you?

• 46:16Speaker 05

  I know.

• 46:17Esther Perel?

  Rather than this person who actually is rather kind?

• 46:22Speaker 05

  I know. He's...

• 46:23Esther Perel?

  No, but I'm asking you a question, not he is.

• 46:26Speaker 05

  I've tried to stop talking to them so much.

• 46:28Esther Perel?

  To whom?

• 46:28Speaker 05

  My grandparents, my mother, my father. I've tried to stop talking to them, but it's hard for me because I, I don't know.

• 46:34Esther Perel?

  Because you did everything they wanted you to do. Who knows if you even wanted to be married and have a child as it is?

• 46:40Speaker 05

  I know. That's what scares me too. My whole life, it's been like, you're gonna get married, you're gonna have a child. And then the only sources of self-esteem I ever got, I don't know if this is important, but when I was in high school, I was, I was an actress slash model, so like I was scouted when I was like thirteen. And I, I feel like that messed me up with like male tension and stuff, um.

• 47:06Speaker 05

  So it's like I don't have that now that I'm, have a child and I'm married. Since he doesn't give me any validation, he never tries to be intimate with me or kiss me or hug me or touch me really for years. It's because I don't have that.

• 47:17Esther Perel?

  You know what's gonna happen, right?

• 47:19Speaker 05

  What?

• 47:20Esther Perel?

  The minute you go with the, "He never," you have lost him. You can talk to me of the wazoo, but you have lost him because when you say never, he's gonna dig up the one time he tried. So this is it. Torpedo.

• 47:36Speaker 05

  I think it's him.

• 47:36Esther Perel?

  Ask for what you want.

• 47:40Esther Perel?

  That's not the same as telling him what he does wrong.

• 47:43Speaker 05

  I guess I want a husband that's...

• 47:45Esther Perel?

  No, no, no. Not a husband that. I want a marriage that. My mother promised me that. No, no.

• 47:53Speaker 05

  I want him to make me feel like...

• 47:54Esther Perel?

  You're not in magical fa- fairyland. We're, you're asking him something precise. But if you ask him while you're telling him that he's no good, he has only one thing he can do. Defend himself to his core.

• 48:09Speaker 05

  But I don't think he's no good. I just think that there's

• 48:15Speaker 05

  parts of his personality that are a little stunted because of his upbringing and I feel bad for that and I wanna help him, but it's starting to negatively impact our entire family life.

• 48:25Esther Perel?

  That is a clean statement. Fair enough.

• 48:30Esther Perel?

  What's happening to you now?

• 48:32Speaker 04

  I am trying to build a list of all the things that, um, she said that I don't believe to be true. And it's getting to the point where I can't even keep track of it.

• 48:49Esther Perel?

  How about, you think, what would be wise?

• 48:59Esther Perel?

  What would make it different? If I do this, what you're just about to do, as usual. You've done this a zillion times. You don't need to do it in front of me.

• 49:13Esther Perel?

  And what she said now, she has said a bunch of times. How do I, how can I help you take any piece of this?

• 49:27Esther Perel?

  And surprise yourself and her at the same time?

• 49:32Speaker 04

  I think, um, part of me is, uh, looking at these and, um, thinking...

• 49:41Esther Perel?

  All the people sitting in this room?

• 49:43Speaker 04

  I don't want the chorus to think that those things are true.

• 49:50Speaker 04

  Because they're not.

• 49:52Esther Perel?

  Oh, you're settling scores with them?

• 49:55Speaker 04

  No, or just anyone.

• 50:01Esther Perel?

  We're at a very interesting moment because...

• 50:05Esther Perel?

  While I'm sitting with two people in the room, we have not forgotten that there are a bunch of chairs of these invisible people who are constantly present in their relationship. And we enter the domain of shame. If they believe all these things about me, I cannot really look at them in the eyes. I can't keep my head up. And so he finds himself with the option to recoil and to go quiet and withdraw, as he has learned to do throughout his childhood. Or to become the businessman who can keep accurate records.

• 50:51Esther Perel?

  And he can really challenge the score and begin to dismantle every criticism, every inaccuracy, one by one. In both of these options, he will find himself defeated and alone.

• 51:13Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

• 51:25Esther Perel?

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabi Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you, based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 51:53Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin? comes from Quince. The best clothes are containers for memories. When you put on a beloved shirt or sweater, it can bring back all the other times you wore it, who you were with, what you were doing. Quince makes pieces that will hold memories for years to come. The designs are timeless, and they use high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. And it's not just apparel. Quince offers hotel-quality bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully-designed furniture. Now that it's officially fall, I'm always reaching for my Quince cashmere sweaters. They're soft, they're comfortable, and I find myself wearing them all the time. Find the fall pieces you reach for most at Quince.

• 52:38Esther Perel?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Where Should We Begin? It's the best way to support the show.

• 53:04Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin? comes from Midi Health. For far too long, there has been a prevailing narrative that menopause should be handled quietly and internally. But listeners of this show know that the internal and the external are intrinsically connected. And menopause and the symptoms that accompany it can not only impact your outward relationships, but also your relationship to yourself. If you don't sleep, if you continuously wake up because you have hot flashes, it changes your mood, it changes your ability to be attentive, your distractibility, your relationship with your partner, your children, your colleagues, etc. So a symptom is just that. It's something that highlights a host of other things through one primary behavior.

• 53:50Esther Perel?

  So there are a ton of physical changes that take place. There are a ton of mood changes that take place. There's a bit of a fork in the road that many women talk about at the onset of menopause. With Midi, you can connect with a clinician who understands your symptoms and can help you find the treatment you need. Built by women who've been there themselves, Midi is virtual care exclusively for women's hormonal health. And yes, it's covered by most major insurance plans. Your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmidi.com right now to book your first visit today. That's joinmidi.com to book your first visit. Joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 54:41Esther Perel?

  Why don't we move them out of the room?

• 54:49Esther Perel?

  So you can actually have a conversation between the two of you?

• 54:53Speaker 04

  Well, I feel like I have to defend myself.

• 54:57Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 54:57Speaker 04

  Because she's saying

• 54:58Esther Perel?

  Well, stop.

• 54:58Speaker 04

  incorrect things.

• 54:59Esther Perel?

  So is that gonna... Does it, does it help you? Do you get anywhere?

• 55:04Speaker 04

  I feel a little better, yeah.

• 55:05Esther Perel?

  You do?

• 55:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 05

  It's not...

• 55:07Esther Perel?

  Seriously?

• 55:09Speaker 05

  He wants to set the record straight for those listening. He doesn't want to come across as...

• 55:14Esther Perel?

  Could you stop?

• 55:16Speaker 05

  Sorry.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  It's not true.

• 55:23Esther Perel?

  What I can tell you, one of the things that is true is that you do this.

• 55:30Esther Perel?

  Why would you want to be intimate?

• 55:32Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 55:32Esther Perel?

  You want him to want you, but you don't want him.

• 55:37Speaker 05

  I've always... It's always been like that, though. I'm like, I need to feel normal. I'm good, let's have sex.

• 55:41Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, yes. And so that it looks good on the charts.

• 55:45Esther Perel?

  That is true too. You're not interested in him. You just want him to be interested in you because that suits the way that you have seen yourself and that that's how things should be. He should want you. You should spew on him, but he should continue to want you, regardless of... Because your gorgeous face is just enough.

• 56:02Speaker 04

  But...

• 56:03Esther Perel?

  Because both of you are basically settling scores with your self-image. You're trying to settle score with your teenage self and you're trying to set your score with your masculine self.

• 56:16Esther Perel?

  And you're loyal to those. Meanwhile, your relationship will crumble.

• 56:25Speaker 04

  So you...

• 56:26Esther Perel?

  Tell her how you feel. Don't give you... Don't tell her your scorecard.

• 56:33Speaker 04

  Well, I desire you. And, um... It is upsetting that you don't...

• 56:44Esther Perel?

  Make sure that you have her attention. Don't give her gold

• 56:48Speaker 05

  I'm embarrassed.

• 56:49Esther Perel?

  and she's not...

• 56:51Speaker 05

  I'm embarrassed because we never related to each other in this way. Like, we're like little kids together.

• 56:56Esther Perel?

  Okay, we're doing fine.

• 56:58Speaker 04

  Calling me a boy again?

• 57:01Esther Perel?

  That was good.

• 57:04Speaker 04

  I desire you and I'm a little upset that someone has told you and you've put it into action that we, as we're working on our marriage, that you wouldn't want to be intimate.

• 57:23Speaker 05

  It's not that I don't want to be. It's that I think it's become...

• 57:25Esther Perel?

  All right. Now you have a choice. You can bring in the freaking choir or you can respond to the one most important thing he just told you. If you don't acknowledge it, you have just ruined something.

• 57:43Speaker 05

  I think I'm so angry.

• 57:45Esther Perel?

  No. No.

• 57:50Esther Perel?

  That is wrong. That's your easy default. Whatever he says, you go into, "I'm so angry, I'm so angry." And you will stay stuck and nothing will change. He didn't tell you to do anything. He just told you, "I like you, I desire you."

• 58:05Speaker 05

  I don't think he means that he desires me.

• 58:07Esther Perel?

  And that is going to sink.

• 58:13Esther Perel?

  Like, he doesn't trust that you're gonna get to the right story and you don't trust that what he says is true. And you don't trust Anayuta. When... You only trust each other when you say shit to each other.

• 58:23Speaker 05

  But maybe if he ever woke me up... Like, I've woken him up in the past month trying to have sex with him, maybe I would feel like he did want me. But nothing that he says ever shows that he wants me in a sexual way.

• 58:36Esther Perel?

  Then you can say, "I don't feel it."

• 58:38Speaker 05

  I don't...

• 58:38Esther Perel?

  That's not the same as saying, "You're full of shit. I don't believe you."

• 58:44Speaker 05

  I was saying that...

• 58:45Esther Perel?

  "I don't believe that you do desire me because if you desired me, you would do what I did to you, which I use as the one criteria to know that I desire you. Since when I wake you up in the middle of the night, it means I want you and you don't wake me up in the middle of the night, then it means that whatever you say is not true."

• 59:09Esther Perel?

  I felt in that moment that I was identified with the relationship. And the relationship was mad at those two people for trashing it. And so that was the anger that I felt inside myself. I felt like I was the relationship fighting for its survival. Not because I wanted to shame them, but it's a very fine line and I didn't know where it was gonna land.

• 59:39Esther Perel?

  The thing is that you know nothing about his sexuality and he doesn't know anything about yours.

• 59:44Speaker 05

  He tells me I'm prude all the time. He's like, "You're so prude."

• 59:47Esther Perel?

  All right, so this is more of you shitting on each other. You know, I

• 59:54Esther Perel?

  don't really know your challenge. You know, I don't find my way in.

• 1:00:02Speaker 05

  So there's no respect left. That's when I think a marriage...

• 1:00:04Esther Perel?

  And on occasion, you have had little moments. But even when I highlight those, you shit on the fact that I'm telling you you just did something nice. There is nothing else of the theme of today except for one word: boundaries.

• 1:00:26Esther Perel?

  Because this is a one-time consultation, I had to choose one element. And I thought it should be a structural element. I could have gone in many different directions about the depth of emotion, about his trauma in childhood, about her experience of intrusion and being boundaryless. But I felt in that moment just stay structural and talk about the scaffolding and the boundaries between them and their families was probably the most concrete and manageable thing with which they could start. It maybe was less deep, It was more solid.

• 1:01:14Esther Perel?

  Part of why you defend yourself is because it's a strategy against rage.

• 1:01:20Esther Perel?

  You're bringing your accounting book to settle the score. Because if you can hold on to what you consider the facts or what you call the truth, it actually is a way of suppressing your rage.

• 1:01:34Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 1:01:35Esther Perel?

  Okay, we're getting somewhere.

• 1:01:39Esther Perel?

  Now, the good is not that you become a screaming match. But you can say, stop.

• 1:01:47Esther Perel?

  No, enough, I will not. In fact, I will not enter into this score-setting conversation.

• 1:01:58Esther Perel?

  Because it's futile.

• 1:02:04Esther Perel?

  And when she goes on and on and on, you come over and if you can, you hold her. And you say, don't do this. This will destroy us.

• 1:02:22Speaker 04

  And when she's on the phone with her mother and she's doing that, I grab the phone.

• 1:02:29Esther Perel?

  Exactly. You go over, you say hello, Miss so-and-so. We have something very important that we have scheduled. We'll call you back later.

• 1:02:42Esther Perel?

  On your end,

• 1:02:44Esther Perel?

  you're going to go talk to your mom and you're literally gonna say,

• 1:02:49Esther Perel?

  at this moment, in order to save my marriage, we need a little bit more space, you and I.

• 1:02:58Speaker 05

  My whole family, there's no boundaries.

• 1:02:59Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 1:03:00Speaker 05

  I'll literally tell my dad about my sex life. I walk around naked.

• 1:03:04Esther Perel?

  If you tell your dad about your sex life, you will turn your husband into a brother.

• 1:03:08Speaker 05

  I know.

• 1:03:09Esther Perel?

  Because I'll tell you one thing. If your head is screwed up well on your shoulders, we do not want sex in the family.

• 1:03:16Esther Perel?

  And you will not know that you de-sexualized your relationship on your own doing.

• 1:03:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Esther Perel?

  You will think that he isn't energetic enough and that's why there is no sexual energy. Rather than you have completely flipped his wings.

• 1:03:34Speaker 05

  Okay, you're totally right. I'm gonna stop.

• 1:03:36Esther Perel?

  You understand. You're bringing him into the family and then you wonder why you don't want sex with him? No, you won't have sex with your brother. You know, you're bringing in ten reasons that have nothing to do with actually what's happening here.

• 1:03:51Esther Perel?

  You're in bed with your parents and your husband and you wonder why you don't feel like it?

• 1:03:58Esther Perel?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:04:04Esther Perel?

  Get them out of the bed, then you'll notice that he may be your husband.

• 1:04:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's like I have no respect for the relationship.

• 1:04:12Speaker 05

  Because I poo on it all the time. I overshare.

• 1:04:18Esther Perel?

  A relationship needs a boundary. A house has a door. Rooms have walls. There is windows. There is curtains.

• 1:04:29Esther Perel?

  I think that you're gonna go home. You're gonna take six pillows upon which you're going to glue a piece of paper with the names of all the people that should be moved out of the bedroom. And you say, let's clear the space.

• 1:04:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Esther Perel?

  We got too many people here and I'm not into group sex.

• 1:04:53Esther Perel?

  Then you're gonna take those pillows, both of you out, and you're gonna go put them in another room.

• 1:05:00Esther Perel?

  Then you're gonna come back to the room and then you're gonna set an ambiance. You're gonna create a space.

• 1:05:08Esther Perel?

  You can make music, you can clean the room, you can put candles, you can create a space that says, this is not, this is gonna be a place that's dedicated to us.

• 1:05:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Esther Perel?

  You know, people can have sex three times a week. If it's bad sex, it doesn't matter. This is not about frequency.

• 1:05:31Esther Perel?

  This is about how much you can enjoy yourselves and each other together. The goal is not to have sex. The goal is to even have a boundary around you so that there is a couple that can be together, because that's what you choose to do, is be a couple with one person.

• 1:05:56Esther Perel?

  And this is your marching order.

• 1:06:00Esther Perel?

  Because otherwise, you're dumping on him, but you're also destroying your relationship.

• 1:06:05Speaker 05

  Oh, okay.

• 1:06:07Esther Perel?

  So, structure, boundaries, limits, containment.

• 1:06:14Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:06:17Esther Perel?

  All right? Thank you very much.

• 1:06:19Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:06:25Esther Perel?

  When the session ended, I left quite worried, actually quite self-critical as well. Like I had missed it, like I hadn't been able to go under, like I hadn't really been able to connect with her. Like, she wasn't listening. Maybe it was the reflection of the fact that she didn't really feel that I got her. That said, sometimes little light bulbs go off in a session that I may not even be aware of.

• 1:06:55Esther Perel?

  I asked each of them to tell me their thoughts, their experience of the session, what happened afterwards, what they took away, and where they are now.

• 1:07:06Speaker 05

  After speaking to us there, things got better with my husband and I. I'm not sure if this has to do with me starting to take antidepressants or if it had to do with the fact that we had someone completely unbiased listen to our story and tell us that we're not broken and that we can work through this. Having Esther give us directions on how to speak to one another, mostly focused on me looking past my husband's inability to gain employment and thus making me feel angry and resentful for working three jobs and how to be more respectful really helped. I've listened to it completely. My husband and I have not had one horrible screaming match since we spoke to Esther. The word divorce has not been mentioned at all. We also stopped involving my family in every single sex and relationship issue. I've not spoken to my mother once about our issues, so things between us feel more sacred.

• 1:07:51Speaker 05

  That was another thing Esther told us to do. My husband and I talk again and he has opened up to me more because I am being nice. Esther got my husband to admit that he feels a little guilty because of our situation, him not having a job, and I think that's made me feel weirdly vindicated. I am still worried sometimes about my husband not finding work, but Esther told my husband that when I am worried, he needs to make me not worried. That's helped a lot. It was extremely helpful speaking to Esther. I have not felt this great in many years. Thank you again.

• 1:08:23Speaker 04

  Hi Esther. The therapy session was really unlike any other that I've had. Instead of just listening to us argue or, you know, keeping score, as you called it, you spoke about much more important things. And instead of staying neutral or being diplomatic, like most people would have been, you told us what we really needed to hear and gave some great advice. And thank you so much.

• 1:08:55Esther Perel?

  I was deeply touched by both their notes because while I felt that I had fallen into the rhythms of their own relational patterns, in fact, they heard a lot. They listened and they put into action right away. And by putting it into action, they were able to counter the negative escalations and to create new patterns between them that are warmer and kinder and more loving and more erotic. And I was remembering her description about her Jewish family. And I thought, at a Jewish wedding, the couple breaks the glass.

• 1:09:36Esther Perel?

  And the glass is that symbol of the imperfections of life and of relationships. And the glass also says that we will work together to glue the pieces back together in an imperfect world.

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to esterperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esterperel.com.

• 1:10:39Esther Perel?

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