I Love My Partner, So Why Can’t I Let Go of My Ex?

What is the distinction between a love story and a life story? And what happens when they no longer move in the same direction? After returning to the Philippines to reconnect with a former partner she never fully let go of, one caller finds herself overwhelmed by grief, longing, and the fear of saying goodbye. Esther helps her untangle the relationship from the life it once represented and explore why some goodbyes are harder than others. What does it mean to hold onto someone with love without remaining tethered to them forever? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  Bienvenido.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Gracias.

• 0:03Esther Perel?

  Tal vez empezamos diciéndome qué es la pregunta que traes hoy. Porque no podemos abordar todo. Así que a veces nos ayuda a centrarnos y tener un lente a través de la cual nos involucramos en nuestra conversación.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Eso suena bien.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  La pregunta que espero explorar y si tengo suerte obtener alguna respuesta hoy sería cómo puedo estar en una asociación con mi socio actual mientras también siento el amor que tengo por mi socio anterior. ¿Cómo se supera eso? ¿Cómo se ve eso? ¿Es posible? Sí, esa es la base de mi pregunta.

• 1:00Speaker 02

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• 1:34Speaker 02

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• 2:06Esther Perel?

  ¿Es posible amar a dos personas al mismo tiempo? ¿O es posible estar en dos relaciones al mismo tiempo? ¿O es posible estar en una nueva relación sin perder completamente todo lo que la primera relación representaba? ¿Alguno de estos?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  El segundo y el tercero más así. Definitivamente sé que es posible. Lo he sentido. He estado con mi socio actual por casi seis años y he sentido esta presencia de mi socio anterior siempre allí. No se ha disipado. Pero las capas alrededor de esa asociación anterior son tan complejas. Y recientemente lo he visto y las cosas se han resurgido.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Y sé que es posible tener múltiples socios. Y eso es algo que mi socio actual y yo hemos discutido, la no monogamía y la poliamérica. No creo que necesariamente sea lo que estoy preguntando en este contexto. Eso no es lo que estoy buscando. Sé seguro de que mi socio anterior no estaría interesado en eso.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Pero mi socio anterior está en las Filipinas y estoy aquí en los Estados Unidos con mi socio actual. Así que hay muchas capas diferentes alrededor de las complejidades de mantener relaciones. Y particularmente la parte cultural de las relaciones con mi socio anterior, que no es americano.

• 3:37Esther Perel?

  Deme un poco de fondo. Sitúe a mí en tu historia de vida. ¿Y quiénes son los personajes principales en este drama?

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Bien, me mudé a las Filipinas hace aproximadamente una década y hice algunas cosas diferentes allí. Me mudé allí debido al Corpo de Paz y luego salí del Corpo de Paz y logré encontrar otro trabajo que me mantuvo en las Filipinas porque estaba enamorada y sabía que sería muy difícil para mi socio en las Filipinas llegar a los Estados Unidos. Muy imposible a menos que nos casemos. Así que comenzamos el viaje de visas de novia. Así que las cosas no funcionaron debido a las cosas de visas, cosas relacionales, un montón de cosas. Luego me mudé de vuelta a los Estados Unidos y, sin ninguna intención,

• 4:32Speaker 01

  dentro de un mes de regreso a los Estados Unidos, conocí a mi socio actual y he estado con ellos por casi seis años. Había muy poco tiempo entre los dos socios. Y cuando me fui a las Filipinas por la última vez, estábamos decidiendo movernos en diferentes direcciones, pero no había...

• 4:53Esther Perel?

  Cerradura.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Sí, no había cerradura. También no había herida o enojo. Estábamos en el aeropuerto muy tristes y como "nos veremos pronto", todavía había mucho amor y planeábamos estar en las vidas de los demás. Y luego me mudé de vuelta a los Estados Unidos, conocí a mi socio actual, que no es binario. Así que fui de estar en una relación heterosexual a una relación queer. Así que hay esa capa. Y luego, durante años, realmente desde que empecé a enamorarme de mi socio, siempre hablábamos de mi socio anterior en las Filipinas y cuánto le quiero y cuánto quiero que sea parte de mi vida. Pero el papel de un socio ya no tenía sentido.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Así que, ¿cómo mantengo a él en mi vida? Y luego debido a todo lo que el mundo experimentó durante los años de 2020 hasta el día actual, fue muy difícil volver a las Filipinas. Y acabo de volver en diciembre y lo vi por primera vez desde que nos fuimos. Y me fui en marzo de 2020, justo cuando las fronteras estaban cerrando. Y se sintió increíble. Se sintió como si no hubiera pasado tiempo. Había estado preparando este viaje con mi terapeuta individual y mi terapeuta de pareja durante meses. Sé que esto va a ser realmente intenso. Va a ser intenso mientras estoy allí. Va a ser intenso cuando vuelva. Y fue.

• 6:21Esther Perel?

  ¿Y había otras relaciones en ese lado también?

• 6:24Speaker 01

  En las Filipinas.

• 6:26Esther Perel?

  ¿Tenía otras relaciones?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Sí, sí. Así que durante el tiempo en que estábamos separados, tenía un socio. Y por maybe dos años. Pero cuando comenzó a enamorarse de esa persona, se me desapareció y me asustó. Había una especie de comunicación que era como, "Hey, tengo un socio. Ella no quiere que te hablara, así que ya no estás en mi vida". Así que siento que me arrepentí de nuestra relación. Y luego, dos años después, ella se levantó y me asustó y se fue. Y luego comenzó a contactarme de nuevo. "Me siento muy mal. Ella fue la que te envió esos mensajes, pero tú sabes a mí, no me gusta el conflicto. No pude hablar contigo, pero quiero estar en tu vida de nuevo". Así que empezamos a planear como,

• 7:12Speaker 01

  "Bien, la única forma en que vamos a ser capaces de verse obviamente es si yo vengo allí. Así que empecemos a planear un momento para que nos veamos". Y sí, se sintió como si tuviéramos un momento realmente genial y nos conectamos. Y estábamos hablando de cómo nuestra relación se verá en el futuro. Y luego, solo una semana después de que volviera, simplemente dejó de hablar conmigo. Así que me quedé con todos estos sentimientos de, sí, esto está tomando control de mi cerebro y de mi vida. No puedo estar presente porque primero y más que nada me preocupa a él. Se siente como si esto fuera completamente fuera de carácter. Pero ahora, a medida que más tiempo pasa, estoy como, ¿Es fuera de carácter? ¿Lo hizo antes?

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Sí, y creo que, sí, mi pregunta principal que me gusta...

• 8:01Esther Perel?

  Así que ahora no estás en contacto con él. Y no sabes por qué.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Sí, no estamos en contacto. Estoy siendo una persona loca y continúo llamándole y mandándole mensajes, pero nada, no hay respuesta o señal.

• 8:15Esther Perel?

  Bien. Así que, en la luz de lo que acabas de decirme, ¿cuál es tu pregunta? ¿A qué vamos con?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Creo que, sí, ¿cómo trato de mantener la presencia en mi relación actual mientras todavía siento lo que fue de este anterior? Quiero decir, obviamente hay amor y siento que puedo sostenerlo en mi corazón. Pero, ¿cómo no dejo que esto tome control de mi cerebro y me mantenga presente en mi relación actual?

• 8:48Esther Perel?

  Esa es una pregunta muy diferente a la que tuviste hace cinco minutos.

• 8:53Esther Perel?

  Y en parte es porque lo que acabas de describir es que no es tu decisión sola.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Sí, sí.

• 9:01Esther Perel?

  Cómo se sintió, lo que eligiste recordar, dónde eligiste mantenerlo dentro de ti, en qué lugar se encuentra en tu historia general. Eso es todo para ti decidir libremente.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Correcto.

• 9:15Esther Perel?

  Pero qué se convierte en una relación, si se reactiva, cómo se sostiene y todo eso, esa es una decisión conjunta. Y así parte de lo que te está volviendo loca es el hecho de que estás solo en este punto. Estás confundido.

• 9:33Esther Perel?

  Y por primera vez estás perdiendo el suelo. Como si el suelo debajo de tus pies se sintiera muy, muy deslizado. Y aún no te he preguntado cómo su socio estadounidense se relaciona con todo esto. ¿Qué dicen? ¿O cómo se sienten?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  I think they are like supportive, but it's this hard dance that we do of like, I feel like a lot of my relationships in the past have been very secretive around like, oh, there's feelings for someone else, like very, very monogamous without any acknowledgement. And that doesn't feel, that is not what my current partnership is. But it also brings up a lot when I'm like unable to just like be present and for weeks at a time.

• 10:27Esther Perel?

  They wonder if you wanna be with them.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that's, and I think that's complicated in my own brain because I'm like, I don't feel like that's what it is, but I'm also just like, how have I been thinking about this? And for six years, you know, and like even being with him for those two weeks that we were just together, it didn't feel like, oh, I'm questioning my decision of whether I want to be in this partnership or this partnership. I feel good in my decision to be in my current partnership, but there's this, there's just this string pulling me that feels like, but like you need to be in some sort of partnership with him and not, that's not like anyone telling me that. It's just like in my heart.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  It's like this person in the Philippines is someone who feels like a soulmate. But yeah, it's, it's not my decision. And I think that is what is so hard and.

• 11:26Esther Perel?

  Tell me, describe the string to me. What's the pull and what have you been pulled towards? And what does this pull represent for you?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, so much. Um.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Right before I left for the Philippines, my parents got divorced and so that was in 2016. And basically since then, my dad has not talked to me. And so there, I know there are all these other layers of like the feeling of abandonment and just like being pushed aside or like not even given the time to explain why there's no communication.

• 12:11Esther Perel?

  So your dad ghosted you and you have no idea?

• 12:17Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 12:17Esther Perel?

  Why? And it hasn't changed since for 10 years?

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:22Esther Perel?

  Do you have a sense?

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:24Esther Perel?

  Did he ghost just you? Did he ghost everyone in the family?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Um, not my three brothers. It's been, which is always so complex. I was maybe more on my mom's side and I wasn't really willing to like have a conversation with him until we acknowledged all the hurt he was causing my mom. And for the first like year, we kind of did this dance of like he tried to like have a relationship with me and I would be like, I can't until we talk about all of these things, these actions you're doing. And he was just like, I won't talk about that with you. Our relationship is independent of my relationship with your mom and we just could never get over that hurdle. He's never even reached out to me. It's not a matter of like, he's reaching out and I'm still not ready

• 13:09Speaker 01

  to go about it. Like I have not heard from him for probably eight years.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  And that was all happening in my early twenties, right as I was going to the Philippines. And then I met this, this person who I'm sure I just have, yeah, weird attachments I was with. And I think it doubly hurts because he knows all of this about my dad. And like I was going through all of that during the start of our relationship and like processing all of that.

• 13:43Esther Perel?

  So he was the glue that helped you tolerate the rift and the breach that you had, that you were experiencing with your dad?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:00Esther Perel?

  And he represented something continuous and ongoing

• 14:08Esther Perel?

  in the middle of a thread that had just been torn.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and the Philippines in and of like represents all of that, I think, too. And so there's like the layer of him being my partner that, but then also like living in that place for so many years. But that me living in the place that whole time has the foundation of me being in partnership with him. So I have all of these feelings of this place being like home, but it's not my home, right? Like I am just a foreigner in this place, but it made it feel less like that when I had a partner to like ground me in all of that. So there's, yeah, the complex layers around like, am I losing him?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Am I losing this whole like part of my life that feels like it's like, you know, like I've had like a hole in my heart and then that kind of filled in the hole in my heart?

• 15:05Esther Perel?

  And what else?

• 15:08Esther Perel?

  What does this thread represent? Because the departure was not only, I imagine, or maybe I should ask it as a question. Was the departure a consequence of the unraveling of the family?

• 15:25Speaker 01

  With my dad.

• 15:26Esther Perel?

  With your dad and maybe with your mom too?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure it, zooming out, it was not unexpected, but in the moment it happened, it felt very unexpected and super dramatic and like, I'm not talking to anyone about it. I'm just like getting up and leaving one day. Um, it was, yeah, it was just a very messy and awful situation. And then very quickly after that, I left as like, yeah, I'm sure a certain, a way of running away from everything and.

• 16:01Esther Perel?

  What number are you?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  I'm two.

• 16:05Esther Perel?

  And everybody else stayed?

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Ish. Everyone dispersed a little bit within the US.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  But honestly, I've thought about for years, reaching out to come on your show to have a conversation with me and my mom because our relationship was so complex from all of this for so long. And part of me leaving the country was just like, I am 22 years old and I cannot support you through, yeah, just, you know, she was just had a terrible time and was just constantly experiencing suicide ideation and whether she wanted to be alive or not and how she was gonna make it to the next day. And it was just a lot, a lot to hold and a lot to carry. And yeah, so I think part of this thread

• 16:56Speaker 01

  of my relationship was also just like an, an escape and like someone to hold me.

• 17:03Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Instead of me having to hold everyone.

• 17:06Esther Perel?

  Yep, yep. It wasn't just leaving because of your dad. It was leaving because of what it would mean to stay with your mom.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:14Esther Perel?

  And it was also being with someone who could take care of you a little bit or be there for you when everything at least here was about you being there for everybody. I, you got it, you got it. And so when I ask you, what does he represent? It's a lot of that.

• 17:34Esther Perel?

  And yet at some point, you decided it was time to come back.

• 17:40Esther Perel?

  Even though you imagined that he would come with you, you did feel this is not my place. This was a good transition. This helped me go from stage X to stage X. And, um, but now I need to go back to my, at least my, are you back in your area or even are you?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Different area.

• 18:02Esther Perel?

  Okay. And interestingly, you did the exact same thing in the US that you had done in the Philippines.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:11Esther Perel?

  I mean, you don't stay alone very long.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:14Esther Perel?

  In the good sense of the word. There's nothing, you know, and you, you had the same way that you had someone there that helped you enter the country, make a base, situate yourself, be anchored. You met someone here and they helped you and situate and, okay, so you are resourceful. You are very resourceful. It's a compliment not to worry.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:47Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us. And let's see where this goes.

• 19:01Esther Perel?

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• 22:42Esther Perel?

  What made you want to go back? What were you going to check out that wasn't in the official agenda?

• 22:52Speaker 01

  That's a good question. And yeah, another layer to my former relationship is that we did get married. Like, we had a wedding in the Philippines. He was coming to the US on a fiance visa. So we had a wedding in the Philippines, knowing that his family wouldn't be able to come to the US and have a wedding here. And then we would have had 90 days, once we got to the US, to do the official marriage. He never made it to the US after our wedding in the Philippines because he was stopped at the border for having tuberculosis. So there was this whole other layer. And so then I was back in the US for a while, and he was doing treatment through the US government in Manila

• 23:35Speaker 01

  to take his tuberculosis medication for nine months or however long it was. But I had already lined up a job, thinking like, "Okay, I'm bringing someone to the US and I need to..." So I had a job, but then I went back to the Philippines after that job ended. It was like a seasonal summer job. And stayed with him because I was like, "Okay, he's doing this medication, and then he's gonna come." But then, when I was back in the US for those few months, I started to have what you just described. Like, I'm like, "Okay, maybe my time in the Philippines is expiring. Maybe it doesn't really make sense for him to come here. He's 15 years older than me and has a child, and his only job for the past 10 years has been working in a cockfighting arena."

• 24:19Speaker 01

  And a lot of that was like, "What is his life gonna be here? Like, is he going to be happy here, being used to living on an island and working one day a week in a cockfighting arena? Like, does any of this actually make sense?"

• 24:32Esther Perel?

  And how did you answer that question?

• 24:35Speaker 01

  By going back and trying it out for a little bit longer and seeing like, "Okay, with all of these now, these new things to think about, like, I'm gonna go back and have these conversations in person." When I was in the US and he was in the Philippines for a few months, it was so hard. There were so many language barriers, and I started to realize how non-verbal our communication was. And that went for all of the Filipino friends I had. Like, it was like, "Oh, we're in such regular contact, and now we're a world apart, and like, how do we communicate?" So I was like, "I definitely need to go back and try this out and see, just to make sure that I'm like,

• 25:18Speaker 01

  these feelings I'm feeling being apart are actually true."

• 25:22Esther Perel?

  So Adam hearing from you is a kind of a developmental arc. You know, you live in your early twenties,

• 25:33Esther Perel?

  as your life has just been totally turned upside down by others. You arrive there, and you meet someone who becomes a very important base for you, which he may or may not even know. In that period of your life, you're not busy thinking, "What is the distinction between a love story and a life story?"

• 26:03Esther Perel?

  Because you're living the love story, and they blend into one.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:08Esther Perel?

  And since you are there and you're not checking on anything else, there is no need to ask the questions. "What will you do if you come to the United States?"

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:20Esther Perel?

  "Who will we be?"

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:21Esther Perel?

  I can adapt, because I am in that very stage of my life where that's exactly what I wanted, a complete turnaround of everything I have known. Here I am, and he provides that for you. He is in his life.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:36Esther Perel?

  You are the one who is being offered an alternative story.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:43Esther Perel?

  And as the years go by, developmentally, the love story and the life story begin to separate. Not because they're mutually exclusive, but because they don't necessarily live by the same principles and criteria.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:00Esther Perel?

  They don't look for the same things. They don't share the same expectations. It needs once or twice or three times of meeting, going back, etc. to actually begin to understand that. You may not have put it in those words, but you begin to understand that this thing is not so easily transportable.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:17Esther Perel?

  It lives in a certain ecology.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:21Esther Perel?

  In a certain language, in a certain landscape, in a certain rhythm,

• 27:27Esther Perel?

  in a certain social environment, and it doesn't necessarily travel.

• 27:33Esther Perel?

  And you begin to feel like, "I've done the traveling I needed." You evolve. And especially if he's 15 years older, and there was not much flexibility in the time when you were even there together, and he basically stayed exactly where he was when you met him. You have a good sense of, if there's no flexibility at home, there often is no flexibility in terms of leaving home. I'm talking about home as one's entire scaffolding.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you're also right in that he's lived with his mom his whole life, and so like, also the physical home, like, that is... Yeah.

• 28:14Esther Perel?

  Okay, okay. So, I'm gonna say something utterly, you know, it's the thing that just popped into my head. But he's helping you.

• 28:29Esther Perel?

  He's helping you, you understand? He's telling you in various ways, "I can't." That's not, "I want, I can't," that's not us. What we had is what it was meant to be. What you're looking for now is a different story. Would it be different if he did it and you had a chance to say goodbye? Or this or that? Probably, but you're not somebody who says goodbye. You didn't come here to say to me, "How do I say goodbye?" You came to ask me, "How do I keep it all inside of me?"

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:09Esther Perel?

  And then the question is, "What does it mean inside of me?" Does this story live in the lobby of my life? And every time you enter my house, it's the first thing you see? Or does it live in the... How do you say, the cabin in... No, yeah, I was gonna say the cabin at the end of the yard.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Esther Perel?

  So you've gone through all the rooms before you arrived there? And that's a very important storage space.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that is the essence of what I'm wondering is like, yeah, where to put it into storage and how to access it? Because, yeah, it's, you know, like if history repeats itself, at some point, he's gonna reach back out and be like, "There will be an explanation."

• 29:55Esther Perel?

  No, only if you accept it, you may say.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 29:59Esther Perel?

  This story is, this story is, this book is finished. This book is finished. It was very important for me in this way. It was probably very important for you in a very different way. You got to stay home and be with me. I got to leave home and be with you. And I am building something different. But this was very important. I will never forget this person who literally was there upon arrival at a moment that was completely unstable and in full disruption.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:39Esther Perel?

  I learned to love with you. I learned to make love with you. I learned a ton of different things. And you are a major developmental story in my life.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:52Esther Perel?

  And it ends when there is a transition to a new stage.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if he were here, he would agree with you. And I just have, yeah, like...

• 31:02Esther Perel?

  But I'm not talking to him, I'm talking to you.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  I know.

• 31:06Esther Perel?

  So you tell me what you think. I mean, it's good to know he would like it, he would agree. It's good, it's a relief, but...

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think he would agree in that, like, that's kind of what he has said before when he like started his, a relationship after us where he was like, "You know, you're always in my heart, but like, I'm now in this new relationship and I just like could not accept that." I'm just, and I think right now, I'm like, I'm hearing you say that. I'm like, I'm trying to like put it into my body and brain, but it... Yeah, I think, I don't know, I don't know if it's because of the history of my, not necessarily romantic, but the history of my like familial intimate relationships. But I, yeah, I just have such a hard time saying goodbye. And, yeah, it felt like I was like making these deals with him

• 32:01Speaker 01

  when we were there around like, "It's not goodbye." Like, "You're gonna be in my life forever, but not as my partner." And like, "I'm gonna have this partnership, but I wanna, I want you in my life and I'll come visit you once a year and we can be together." And I think, yeah, in the moment when we were together, he's like, "Okay, yeah, like, I agree to that." And then I think after, you know, it had been six years and it's just like, everything was flooding back and... Again, there's so many like cultural things that are like hard to navigate, but...

• 32:34Esther Perel?

  Like what? When you keep, you've said it twice now. What's the thing that stand out for you about that?

• 32:41Speaker 01

  So I have not, I was assigned to live with his sister with the Peace Corps. So that's how like I met his family. So I feel like I have, you know, close relations with a lot of his extended family and all of his extended family still lives in the same town, village, whatever you want to call it. And so when we just went back, my brother came with me on this visit back because he lived with me here for a summer when he was in college. So he has, we have a lot of shared friends. He was really close with my partner. So we were coming back and we were going to like pick up my former partner at a mall in the city. And he let us know right before we were on our way, like, "Oh, my whole family is here, they want to say hi."

• 33:26Speaker 01

  And I was like, "Um, I don't think so." Like, we haven't had any like communication, like, this is a lot, just me and you seeing each other. And so it felt like that was gonna be the answer. But then we show up and he's like, "Yeah, just come meet me here." And then his whole family is there and they're like videotaping us and just like, "We've missed you, we're so excited to see you." And like, that's like the initial time we're seeing each other after six years. And there had been so many, what I thought to be very clear conversations around, like, "I have a partner, like, I am coming to see you because I love and care about you and it's been so long and I like wanna spend time with you."

• 34:07Speaker 01

  And it wasn't ever spoken out loud by anyone, by him or anyone in his family of like, "Are you guys getting back together? Is this revitalizing your relationship?" But I, yeah, it's, and on the flip, we were traveling with my brother and he was spending, you know, like a week with my brother and me. And so it's like, both sides of it. But then when I was asking like, "Your mom, like, she hugged me and like said she wants me to visit her the next time I come." Like, "Are you wanting me to come to your place and like visit your family?" And that's all kind of confusing. I didn't know I was like, "Welcome back there."

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Because I don't know how our marriage, like how that lands with everyone. And his family, I'm a little bit more removed from...

• 34:55Esther Perel?

  They all think you're married to you?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  They were all at the wedding, like, we had a big wedding. But they all also knew, like, he was not able, you know, the whole, everything was very in the open around like, "Okay, he's now being stopped at the corner."

• 35:09Esther Perel?

  So they thought you were coming to bring your groom?

• 35:12Speaker 01

  I don't know, that's, that's what I'm, I don't know, I don't know. And so then it's like, if that's how we first met each other and then we spend another 10 days together, you know, without any of his family, and it feels clear to me like that we are not exploring, you know, he tried to kiss me when we first saw each other and I was like, "No, like, I want to hug you and like, I love you, but we're not kissing." Like, that's...

• 35:43Esther Perel?

  And is there speaking of marriage in your current relationship?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Um, no, but just because I feel like...

• 35:51Esther Perel?

  One is enough?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 35:58Esther Perel?

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• 39:29Esther Perel?

  You know, you arrive to the Philippines and you cross a bridge.

• 39:35Esther Perel?

  And he's your bridge.

• 39:39Esther Perel?

  And you are at this moment when instead of calling him in this obsessive style, "Are you there? Are you there? Are you there? Are you there?" That there is actually a part of you that needs to call or to write or whatever, not to hold on, but to actually say goodbye. And that means walking back the bridge. Because this bridge is going to lift. And then when it's lifted, you can't cross it. There's water.

• 40:15Esther Perel?

  And the call that you need to make, the letter that you need to write, is the one where you walk back to the other side of the bridge. There's no way of doing that that doesn't involve sadness and loss and grief.

• 40:33Esther Perel?

  But also memory, integration, and sedimentation. Like it sediments inside of you and it becomes a major period of your life. But it isn't activated by the urgency and the young feelings that brought you there in the first place.

• 40:57Esther Perel?

  So I'm thinking, "Dear ex,

• 41:03Esther Perel?

  now you."

• 41:09Esther Perel?

  It's okay. Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  This feels like one of the hardest things that I ever have had to do so far in my life.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  You've meant so much to me and helped me be the person that I am. But the relationship or lack thereof that we have now and that we've had for the past five years since I've left, it's too hard to keep holding on to and trying to manage. And as much as I've told you in the past that I would love to keep holding on and keep pulling you along by a thread so that you're there when I'm ready. I'm not going to be ready to be in a relationship with you ever again. And I can't keep hurting you by just keeping you pulled along

• 42:07Speaker 01

  and telling you I love you all the time because I know that's confusing.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  And I personally just can't ever close the door without there being some sort of potential if you ever need me. But I think we need to put a pause on trying to connect with each other because it feels like it's holding both of us back.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  But I love you so much and I'm so grateful for you.

• 42:47Esther Perel?

  Is there a PS?

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't really know how to say it.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  I'm just so worried about him, his health and safety.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  And when I last saw him, he told me he had started smoking meth again and because he's just so sad.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  And I guess the PS would just be like something that like I can't, I can't be the one that stops you from doing that.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  But I hope that you can find your center and your grounding. That's like the essence of my obsessive calling is...

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the last time when he had a girlfriend and he said, or somebody said, whether it was him or his girlfriend said like, "Stop contacting me. I'm in a new relationship now and that's what I want."

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I was able to just be like, "Okay.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  No more." You know, like I can respect that. I don't want to mess that up. But this time is just, yeah, so much harder, like seeing him just look pretty rough and like...

• 44:13Esther Perel?

  As if you're your father doing to your mother

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:17Esther Perel?

  and what you're doing to him.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that's why I have such a hard time with like impermeable boundaries. Because it's like, I don't know. Again, like I've never had this heart to heart with my dad to be like, "What is the deeper layer to why you needed to do all of this?" But it just felt the way he had these like these boundaries, so to speak, with my mom and me of like no contact, no communication. These are the things I'm willing to talk about. These are the things I'm not willing to talk about. Like, yeah, it just felt like there was no no ability for anybody else to show up and like have a part in it. It was just... And I think this is like my bigger like frustration with who he is as a person is just like this power and like...

• 45:01Esther Perel?

  But also the suicidality and the meth.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 45:05Esther Perel?

  So you're making the connections.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I just never want to like... Yeah, I just, I do love and care about him. And even if I'm having this boundary of like, "I can't keep doing this whole back and forth." And like, yeah, obviously I've pitched it to him of like, "I want you in my life and I'd make room and time to see you for one month every year if that was possible." Like, I've expressed what I want and like what I would be willing to give. But yeah, I just worry so much. And like, there's such a big war on drugs in the Philippines and...

• 45:41Esther Perel?

  But you're also telling me I'm desperately trying to not have separations that are cut offs.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:51Esther Perel?

  To maintain an open door,

• 45:55Esther Perel?

  to not leave people who then want to harm themselves. And I'm learning. I'm learning to say, "I'm not cutting you off, but I'm not continuing to promise you all kinds of things which I am actually not going to do."

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:15Esther Perel?

  And there must be a way for me to say goodbye without having to feel responsible over your life.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:24Esther Perel?

  Because that's the other flip side. That's the other extreme of what you feel you did. From I care about nothing to I'm responsible for your life.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:34Esther Perel?

  Which is why you left in the first place. So you can write this letter two, three times until you send one version. It's for you more than for him, actually.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:48Esther Perel?

  I think that handwriting will be more powerful than typing. And this is a practice for you to say goodbye, to end in a way that is very different from the experiences that you have had around breakups and to find a middle ground.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, I think my job and my personality of like being a caretaker, caregiver, also led me to reach out to you because I'm like, I've been holding this and swishing around and going to therapy weekly for years and nothing has... There hasn't been any progress, right? And then I tell everyone in my life, "I'm going back to the Philippines. I'm gonna see my ex." And virtually everyone is like,

• 47:38Esther Perel?

  Not a good idea.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, "Why are you doing this?" Except my partner, honestly. My partner's like, "No, this, you kind of need some closure because this has been like an open door from the get-go of our relationship."

• 47:50Esther Perel?

  Right, but you didn't come back with closure. The closure is something that you're facing now.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:55Esther Perel?

  Which is why his

• 47:59Esther Perel?

  reluctance to be in touch with you is helpful.

• 48:04Esther Perel?

  But you need to do something with it. It's just the raw material.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:08Esther Perel?

  And you need to shape it.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:11Esther Perel?

  You need to shape it by deciding where in the house you want to put it.

• 48:17Esther Perel?

  So I would like you to make a box of memorabilia.

• 48:24Esther Perel?

  That belongs to this phase of your life and to this relationship. Could include clothes, natural objects, cards, receipts, you name it. And just make a beautiful box. So it's always visible if you want to, accessible if you want to, but it's gathered. You gather the memory. You gather the transition. And then find a place in the house where to put it.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  That's a really good idea. Everything is just...

• 49:00Esther Perel?

  Because it's spread all over and it's permeating. And frankly, you have a very generous and understanding partner, but at some point they will also say, you know,

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:12Esther Perel?

  Can we tighten the belt a little bit?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, I feel like that's where the urgency of the conversation comes in was like, yeah, they were so willing to let me go and explore, you know, like closure or whatever. And I like knew, we both knew coming back it was going to be hard. And it is obviously hitting a lot harder than expected. And yeah, so they're also at the point of like, it's okay, take your time. And also like...

• 49:41Esther Perel?

  Yes, I'm not here forever. Right, so I got it. I understood that. What made this urgent is that it was not nearly as much closure as I think your partner hoped it would be. Or even you for that matter. So I like representation. Your letters go into the box if you want to. The box can be totally beautiful. It doesn't have to be just a plain shoebox. Or you can beautify it. But it is a place where you bring together the essentials of those years. Then you'll decide if you want to have a formal goodbye or if that is your own personal little closure.

• 50:25Esther Perel?

  And that that suffices, that does it. I want you to then take your partner, your current partner, and show them the box. I am here. That doesn't mean you never think about the Philippines or think about it. But basically, I am here. Your role as Penelope, waiting for me to return, is coming to a closure. That too needs to get a closure. The box is not glued.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:59Esther Perel?

  You can open it anytime, but it is contained.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  It needs to be.

• 51:05Esther Perel?

  So that you don't feel like you're flooded and confused and unable to ground yourself. And you can do all the breathing and we can do all of that too. You can do the walking, the movement, the breathing, the holding of the heart, everything you want. But there is also the symbolic way to contain this and to bring the pieces of the experience and the memories into a safe, contained box that I can open and close.

• 51:36Esther Perel?

  And that is not activated by obsessive rumination and phone calls and responsibility over his being alive or his using and all of that.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:52Esther Perel?

  What would be the opening line of the letter? And we will close with that. But just only the title of the letter if you wanted.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Again, I would, I have to come back to the eloquence, but I think part of what I would want to make sure is in the title is gratitude, love, and closure. So some gathering of those things, like, thank you. You've helped me in so many ways. I will never stop loving you. And we can't keep doing this dance.

• 52:33Esther Perel?

  No, and I came to say goodbye. This is an I.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which I've never said to him. Even all the times that we've, you know, said goodbye at a border and just like, okay, we'll see each other. Yeah, it's never been goodbye.

• 52:52Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  I feel allergic to goodbye.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  But I, yeah, like I, I think it's reframing my, the way that I think about goodbye and not in terms of like how goodbye has been said to me and impacted me in the past of like, no more communication, don't talk to me. Goodbye can also be, yeah, it doesn't have to be so in your face, never a part of anything ever again.

• 53:22Esther Perel?

  Correct. That's it. How to say a final goodbye for what we have had and what we have been.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Right. Which is true, like that does need a goodbye because I keep saying over and over again, like, we can't be partners anymore. So like, I am essentially saying that, but it's, yeah, I think it's so not direct and I think it's confusing.

• 53:48Esther Perel?

  We can't be partners is an observation, a statement. I came to say goodbye is a verb and an action.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:00Esther Perel?

  One's a reflection, one's an action. And this is difficult. But you're gonna take action

• 54:11Esther Perel?

  for the final goodbye. And I'm gonna say goodbye to you too.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Okay. Thank you so much, Esther.

• 54:31Speaker 06

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther and could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin

• 55:16Speaker 06

  are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 55:29Speaker 07

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