Burdens of the Family

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? They share a legacy of war, a refugee upbringing and family trauma. Their marriage was seen as taboo and now they're trying to build a happier relationship for their child. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:26Speaker 00

  This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence. It may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

• 0:39Speaker 01

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• 1:43Esther Perel?

  The initial request of this couple surrounded his recent infidelity.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  I had found out he was cheating on me with someone online.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  I was looking for excitement, things that really distracted me from what I was experiencing at home.

• 2:04Esther Perel?

  But the thing that immediately became clear is that for almost a decade, as a mom couple, they fought to be a couple.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  I knew that I had met the love of my life. And then I was like, I can't be with him because it's a huge taboo.

• 2:21Speaker 04

  In our community, it's forbidden for plans to marry within the same clan. So in me and my wife's case, we're from the same clan, but we're not from the same family.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  It got to a point where it's like, well, we're not related anyway. Fuck it, let's just be together. So it was an uproar among all my family.

• 2:43Esther Perel?

  For so long, they stood united against the opposition. And then, when they were finally together, the opposition became between them. Chronic, constant bickering.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  She only saw things from her side, and I only saw things from my side. And that's when I just kind of lost it. And I was like, man, you know, I'm just gonna go out and talk to these girls and see if I can get my mind off things and figure out whether or not I made the right choice to marry this girl.

• 3:12Speaker 03

  Okay, so every time you get mad at me, you're going to cheat on me? Or you're gonna go download Messenger app and find some random person to talk to? To make you happy?

• 3:29Esther Perel?

  Is everybody here because they want to be here?

• 3:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, of course. Normally, when we talk to each other, we don't really say the things we want to.

• 3:42Speaker 05

  So I think this will bring us closer together.

• 3:46Esther Perel?

  That's a very nice wish, I would imagine.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  I wouldn't imagine saying that, but yes.

• 3:52Esther Perel?

  I saw your face, that's why.

• 3:56Esther Perel?

  When did your parents or your grandparents come?

• 4:01Speaker 05

  They came in the 70s. They came here during the Vietnam War. They escaped the war and that was it. I don't really know the details. My dad, he never had a job. He went to school. Very poor.

• 4:19Esther Perel?

  How old was he when he came here?

• 4:21Speaker 05

  I think he was 15, maybe 16.

• 4:26Esther Perel?

  What influence do you think your father's experience had on you?

• 4:34Speaker 05

  He's very kind. He's very funny. He doesn't very shout. He doesn't speak up. And I think I picked that side up from him.

• 4:46Esther Perel?

  So he arrives at 15?

• 4:50Speaker 05

  He meets my mom. They are married here.

• 4:55Speaker 05

  And I was born here.

• 4:57Esther Perel?

  They stayed together?

• 4:59Speaker 05

  No.

• 5:01Esther Perel?

  And you stayed with?

• 5:03Speaker 05

  So me and my brother stayed with my dad. And my youngest brother and my sister stayed with my mom. So she wanted the girl and the baby. And then my dad was like, okay, well, if you want those two, I'll just take the other two. The oldest and the third.

• 5:25Esther Perel?

  So how did that work out?

• 5:26Speaker 05

  It was hard.

• 5:29Speaker 05

  I felt like I was kind of betrayed a little bit by my mom because I was the first and the oldest.

• 5:38Speaker 05

  It was heartbreaking, but...

• 5:39Esther Perel?

  How old were you?

• 5:41Speaker 05

  I was maybe seven or eight.

• 5:46Speaker 05

  It was kind of funny because...

• 5:48Esther Perel?

  No, it wasn't funny.

• 5:49Speaker 05

  Because she aren't always...

• 5:52Esther Perel?

  It wasn't funny?

• 5:54Speaker 05

  Well, now that I think back about it, yeah, it wasn't funny. But she'd always joke about like, yo, you're my oldest. I love you forever, you know, my son, blah, blah, this and that. But when she chose my sister and my younger brother, it was kind of like, it kind of broke me.

• 6:18Esther Perel?

  Is that the first time your heart was broken?

• 6:21Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  The first time.

• 6:26Esther Perel?

  We don't forget that time?

• 6:28Speaker 05

  No. I still remember that day.

• 6:33Esther Perel?

  That she left?

• 6:37Speaker 05

  My mom and dad in two different cars. My sister and brother in one car, and then me and my brother in one car. And we just drove away.

• 6:49Esther Perel?

  You're seeing it when you say it, right?

• 6:56Esther Perel?

  So you lost your mother very young?

• 7:03Esther Perel?

  Does she know that?

• 7:05Speaker 05

  I don't think so.

• 7:08Speaker 05

  I told my wife that, yeah, me and my mom, we don't really talk. And we're never on good terms anyway, so she's never a part of my life, but...

• 7:17Esther Perel?

  But she's such a huge part of your life, your internal life.

• 7:21Speaker 05

  She is, and I think about her a lot. But, you know, I'm at a point where I have my own family to worry about now.

• 7:31Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but the way you will worry about your own family carries the story that's inside of you too.

• 7:38Esther Perel?

  And you have a lot to talk to each other, but you're not.

• 7:44Esther Perel?

  But look how she's listening to you. She's crying with you.

• 7:52Speaker 05

  We don't really share stories because I don't want to talk about this.

• 7:58Esther Perel?

  Why not? Because it hurts?

• 8:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, it hurts and you just don't like to bring up the past. But, you know, it's just a way of me trying to be strong, but...

• 8:16Esther Perel?

  Does it work?

• 8:17Speaker 05

  No.

• 8:18Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  Sometimes it does.

• 8:21Esther Perel?

  Sometimes it does, but mostly it doesn't because it does live inside of you and because you do think about it a lot. And because if you actually did share some of it, it would have a place rather than underground powers.

• 8:41Esther Perel?

  You're a whole different person when you talk about all of this. And she has no way of experiencing it or appreciating it for that matter. What you think is strong, which is to avoid all your feelings and circumvent them, there's not much strength to that.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Never thought about it that way, but...

• 9:04Esther Perel?

  But you carry, tell me if I hear that well. You carry inside of you your kind, gentle, warm and funny father. And then you carry inside of you. How do you carry mom inside of you?

• 9:21Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't think I'm anything like my mom, to be honest. Too kind and too caring.

• 9:30Esther Perel?

  You're not too. You can take the too out of it. There is no too kind. That's a crazy thought.

• 9:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's true.

• 9:40Esther Perel?

  You're kind and you're caring. And you can say it without reservation.

• 9:48Esther Perel?

  Okay. And who is your family?

• 9:53Speaker 06

  There are eight of us in total. There's five girls, three boys.

• 9:59Esther Perel?

  And you are number?

• 10:00Speaker 06

  I am number four. I'm the middle child. Or one of the middle children.

• 10:06Speaker 06

  My parents divorced and they fight. Like, all I've known them to, just bickering, fighting, physically fighting. And so when I was 18, I guess my mom must have caught my dad cheating. And then he was just like, "Why are you going through my shit?" Blah, blah, blah. And he got violent and he was just yelling.

• 10:32Esther Perel?

  The violence, the physical violence, was mainly between the parents or it was everybody?

• 10:38Speaker 06

  Oh, it was everybody, but, you know, like, when I did bad stuff growing up, like, you learn how to dodge.

• 10:46Speaker 06

  But my parents are physically abusive to each other, mostly my dad, and then really abusive to us. Growing up, I witnessed my grandparents beat my aunts for going out too late.

• 11:00Speaker 06

  My uncles put holes in the walls.

• 11:03Esther Perel?

  Oh, my God.

• 11:04Speaker 06

  So, yeah. So that night when I decided that it was enough, it was enough, I went downstairs to stop the fighting. I went to protect my mom. And my younger brother pushed my dad out of the way. I called 911. And everyone's like, "Who called the cops? Who called the cops?" I'm like, "I don't care. I'm protecting my mom."

• 11:30Speaker 06

  And that, I believe, was that summer. Or it was sooner, I decided, "I'm leaving. I'm moving out." It wasn't until, like, later, I get to call my mom. And my mom's like, "Where are you?" I'm like, "I moved out."

• 11:46Speaker 06

  "You're a double child. You're the worst child I have." She's like, "Don't you ever call me for anything. Don't you ever call me."

• 11:59Esther Perel?

  What is immediately apparent here is that this is not just a story of parents who abandoned their children, but also a larger story of intergenerational trauma of a few generations connected to the war in Vietnam, connected to the refugee experience coming to the United States. And that this transmission is both emotional and psychological, but also exists on a cellular level.

• 12:33Esther Perel?

  You have a short marriage.

• 12:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:36Esther Perel?

  You're a young family. You have a two-year-old.

• 12:42Esther Perel?

  But you have a long history.

• 12:45Esther Perel?

  And the history starts not just when you're born.

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  The history starts when your grandparents arrive. The history starts with how all these people intersect with each other. The history starts when your mom abandons you and when your mom abandons you, just after you try to actually save her. And a very outspoken person with a very kind person have a lot to learn from each other. The kind person, he calls himself kind, but what he's trying to say is that he doesn't always stand up for himself.

• 13:23Esther Perel?

  But he meets and marries a woman who does stand up for herself and pays a very heavy price for it, but will do it.

• 13:32Esther Perel?

  And then, from the kind of violent, destructive family that you come, to have him be so gentle

• 13:43Esther Perel?

  is a kind of a relief to your nervous system.

• 13:47Esther Perel?

  And now the challenge is how you're gonna make those goodies give you the life and the marriage that you want to have.

• 13:56Esther Perel?

  So where does your infidelity play into that story? Does it have anything to do with all what we've talked about? Or it's yet another story?

• 14:08Speaker 05

  My infidelity comes in after a long time of bearing a lot of weight.

• 14:19Speaker 05

  Over the years, things have started to almost plateau. We don't talk much. Whenever we do talk about certain things, we tend to disagree. And with disagreement comes frustration, misunderstanding. Makes me question whether or not I'm in the right place in this marriage. So in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, I need to, maybe I need to start branching out. So I started talking to this girl and she just like, you know, say, "Hi, how are you doing? What you plan for tonight?"

• 15:04Speaker 05

  It got to the point where we were calling each other like names, like babe and honey and all that stuff because she was very flirty. I was very flirty too. And I thought it was kind of fun to get those kind of messages because it made me feel kind of appreciated or wanted. Here's somebody who's not yelling at me whenever I come up with an idea or somewhere that we just say, "Hey, good morning, honey. How are you? Hope you have a good day." Little messages like that kind of made me feel good. But, you know, I knew I messed up because, I mean, you told me you saw those messages, right? And she's like, "Why are you guys calling each other babe?" And then I just told her, "Yeah, you know,

• 15:49Speaker 05

  I'm talking to this lady online." And then that's what happened.

• 15:57Esther Perel?

  And now, do you ask her in the morning, "Hi, honey. How are you? Good morning."

• 16:03Speaker 05

  Yep. Every now and then, I would say, "Good morning."

• 16:07Esther Perel?

  Why is it every now and then?

• 16:11Speaker 05

  I'm not a morning person.

• 16:12Esther Perel?

  It doesn't matter. What I'm saying is, if you understood that being nice and warm and friendly is very endearing, why don't you do it with your wife? You're upset that she's not doing it with you, but you're giving her the same?

• 16:28Speaker 05

  Yeah. It's like me trying to make, say those kind of things from, like, genuinely wanting to say those kind of things. And so I can't just say, "Hey, good morning, honey. How are you doing?" Because in bed, I'm like, "No, I don't want to wake up. I'm not ready for this day." And not having to worry about, "Oh, hey, honey. How are you doing? Good morning."

• 16:53Esther Perel?

  I'm missing something. If you want things to be better at home,

• 17:01Esther Perel?

  the charming person

• 17:05Esther Perel?

  that chats online has to also come home on occasion.

• 17:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:15Esther Perel?

  This woman is nice to you because she gets a different kind of guy than this woman.

• 17:23Esther Perel?

  If you want her to also be softer and kinder to you, you have to be more available to her in that way as well. Obviously, you're tired for your family, but you're not tired for your games or for your chats. So you have the energy. Why? Because we get energized. When it's fun and playful and we get attention, it's energizing.

• 17:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a good point.

• 17:51Esther Perel?

  But if you brought 10% of that energy and playfulness and charm home, you'd get something back too.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:08Esther Perel?

  This is something that comes up very often. This idea that there are two different people, the partner and the lover, and they are essentially different. One is a nag, always in a bad mood, negative, critical, and the other is charming and fun and playful. But what's missing is the fact that he himself is acting very differently. A charming person will elicit a more charming response on the other side. His wife doesn't react to him the way that the other woman does because he brings something else to the wife than he brings to the other woman. It's an interactive dance. It's not just an essentialist difference between two people.

• 18:55Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 19:10Esther Perel?

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• 19:54Esther Perel?

  Remember that your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmidi.com right now to book your first visit today. That's joinmidi.com to book your first visit. Joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 20:16Esther Perel?

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• 20:59Esther Perel?

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• 21:27Esther Perel?

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• 22:35Esther Perel?

  You know, your survival strategy at home was to make yourself invisible and go quiet. And your survival strategy at home was to charge and to take charge. And then that's what you're doing now. When things get tough, you shut down and you charge. And the more she charges, and the more you think you need to go and shut down. And this very trait that you like so much of her stepping in now becomes the opposite, becomes a thing you need to avoid at all costs. And the very ability to contain himself that you so appreciate from him

• 23:20Esther Perel?

  now becomes the thing you can't stand because he's like a robot in the house.

• 23:27Speaker 05

  That's how our relationship is now. I just kind of shut down. And whatever she says I need to do, I just do it. But it's a never-ending cycle.

• 23:39Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 23:39Speaker 05

  You know, one day leads to another day, and another day leads to forever.

• 23:43Esther Perel?

  But you do see that your withdrawing creates her charging.

• 23:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:55Esther Perel?

  And her charging, your charging, leads to his withdrawal. It's like each of us activates the survival strategy of the other.

• 24:08Esther Perel?

  Because when you charge, it makes him more vulnerable. And then he goes into his defense mode, his survival mode. And when he goes inward, you start to feel, I'm all alone again. All the battles of my life are on my shoulder. There's never anybody there for me. And then that makes you feel like you have to arm yourself.

• 24:39Esther Perel?

  This is all changeable, just so we're very clear. But it is learning to be in a relationship. You have to also understand that. You come with tremendous trauma.

• 24:56Esther Perel?

  And you're trying to do something that will be better and that will be different. And now you're in phase two. Phase one was, we're going to make this happen no matter what. For whatever reason, you decided she was worth fighting for all these years. But now that you are with her, you're not fighting for her or for your relationship. You're just fighting for your survival.

• 25:21Esther Perel?

  That's too bad. Nine years you fought for her, and now all you're trying to do is avoid her. That's off.

• 25:30Speaker 06

  You start playing your video games. And I'm just looking there, I'm like, whoa, he have things to do. We have the house to clean, we have dinner to make. Are you not hungry? You never use a bathroom. And here I am trying to manage a household, manage a career. And I'm like, I have to manage you too? Like, do you want me to wipe your ass for you? And then that's why I'm always like, do you need help? How can I help you? Because I know that you might think everything I'm throwing at you is difficult. But you don't say anything, so I'm always like, do you need help? How can I help you?

• 26:09Speaker 05

  I see things as, or what we need to do as a married couple is, how do we find time for each other? Because we're always busy doing things in life. There's never enough time, right? We have eight hours a day at work and then maybe another, what, five, six hours at home before we have to go to bed. Most of those times lately have involved things that don't incorporate each other. So we're always away from each other. We never get to see each other. And then when we do see each other, it's like, oh, we have to do this and that, so we split up again.

• 26:53Speaker 05

  And that's what frustrates me because how do we find time for each other?

• 27:01Esther Perel?

  What I hear him asking is more closeness and intimacy. What I see her hearing is that he wants to slack off and that she needs an adult. But I do think that his request is part of an adult relationship. But he needs to find a better way of doing it.

• 27:43Esther Perel?

  Can I give you a suggestion?

• 27:45Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 27:47Esther Perel?

  At this point, when you want to play, she thinks, "I need an adult. There's so much to do."

• 27:57Esther Perel?

  And you need to convince her that adults have the permission to play as well.

• 28:04Esther Perel?

  So if you sit down at some point, and you say, "Let's just chill for a bit." And she comes in with a list. You can say, "You know what? We've just worked for the last three hours. We're gonna take a break together, and we'll get to the list later.

• 28:24Esther Perel?

  I'll engage with you on the list, but you... I'm gonna help you to give yourself permission to stop for a minute."

• 28:34Esther Perel?

  That's an equal partner. That's an adult response, rather than, "She's a party pooper. I want to have fun. She doesn't know how to have fun. All she wants to do is lists.

• 28:48Esther Perel?

  So I'm just gonna tune her out and continue to play in my head." Help her.

• 28:55Esther Perel?

  She too wants to chill, but she doesn't necessarily know when it's okay to stop, if she can stop even if everything isn't done.

• 29:02Speaker 05

  Finding a balance, it sounds like.

• 29:04Esther Perel?

  Can you imagine? So you come down, you sit for a minute, and she says... And she comes up with the list. And instead of trying to tune her out, you engage with her, and you simply say, "Look, I think we can take a moment right now." But say it with conviction.

• 29:21Speaker 05

  Otherwise, she thinks I'm attacking her?

• 29:23Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 05

  Or disagreeing with her?

• 29:26Esther Perel?

  Yes, you want to reassure her, rather than disagree with her. She ain't gonna be easy to convince.

• 29:32Speaker 05

  No, it's not.

• 29:35Esther Perel?

  And that's where you are gonna practice becoming more outspoken. That's what you wanted. That's why you picked her.

• 29:43Esther Perel?

  Why is it not gonna be easy? Not because she's being obstinate to you, but because she was number four among eight, and she had four that she took care of the whole time. Do you think she learned to play anywhere?

• 29:56Speaker 05

  No.

• 29:56Esther Perel?

  Because she left her family without a penny and just a mattress, and had to build everything on her own.

• 30:03Esther Perel?

  It's not because she's just being nasty to you. It's because she doesn't know how to.

• 30:11Esther Perel?

  This is such a classic. It presents as one person nags the other for more things to do. And the other kind of saying, "Can you never just stop and give me a break?" And the truth is, no, they can't. But not because they're a nag, but because they've never been able to give themselves a break either, because that was not an option in their life. And that's why he can offer the repair to her. But he needs to be firm, consistent. He needs to know that the challenge that he's taking on is the challenge of repair.

• 30:48Speaker 06

  I just feel like I say too much for him. I say things for him. I make his list for him. I make his calendar for him. And I'm just like, "Oh my God. I'm just over it. I'm done."

• 31:02Esther Perel?

  But you don't. You continue to do it.

• 31:04Speaker 06

  I continue to do it.

• 31:05Esther Perel?

  And the more you do it, and the more you become an intrusive mom. And then he goes and he becomes a child. And when he becomes a child with you, he goes to be a man with other women.

• 31:14Speaker 06

  Right.

• 31:16Esther Perel?

  So that's the structure that has to change. The more you do what you do, the more you infantilize him.

• 31:26Esther Perel?

  Now, he doesn't say, "It's okay. I can handle my own lists. Don't do this." He lets you do it, and he resents you for it. And then he'll go and find somebody who wants him and who is nice to him and who flirts with him, because he doesn't flirt with you, and you will blame her for not flirting.

• 31:46Esther Perel?

  It's both of you. It's true, she's no fun if all she talks about is lists. But you're not saying to her, "Stop."

• 31:57Speaker 05

  Yeah. I don't say no often.

• 32:01Esther Perel?

  You say no in your own passive-aggressive way,

• 32:06Esther Perel?

  by avoiding her, by not doing it, by letting her repeat it, by going and playing with others. You do say no, but not in a simply engaged, equal-to-equal person.

• 32:20Esther Perel?

  So let's pick an example and practice this for a minute, just so you have a sense a little bit of how this feels and how it lives in your bodies. What's a classic? Give me one of your top tens.

• 32:37Speaker 05

  Pick one? We'll do dishes.

• 32:44Esther Perel?

  We've reached a moment where we have connected many dots. But this piece about how he can say no while remaining connected demands practice. And so, any example is good. They choose the dishes, but the dishes are never the dishes. The dishes represent her sense of responsibility. The dishes represent his lack of connection. We have to think metaphorically. For all the people who fight about toothbrushes, dishes, garbage cans, snow tires, and lawn mowing, it's important that we remember

• 33:28Esther Perel?

  these are standings for deeper needs.

• 33:36Esther Perel?

  We need to take a break, but please, stay with us.

• 33:47Esther Perel?

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• 34:33Esther Perel?

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• 34:52Esther Perel?

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• 35:35Esther Perel?

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• 37:05Esther Perel?

  What's your line?

• 37:06Speaker 06

  My line is, "Go do your dishes." Or, "Go do the dishes."

• 37:11Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. So you tell him?

• 37:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm just like, "Hey, can you do the dishes?" And he just goes, "Yeah."

• 37:16Esther Perel?

  No, no. But he says he's gonna tell me.

• 37:18Speaker 06

  Oh, okay.

• 37:22Speaker 05

  My immediate response on No More Daily? I would say, "Why?"

• 37:28Esther Perel?

  Why?

• 37:29Speaker 05

  Why? Like, "Why now?"

• 37:31Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And then you say?

• 37:33Speaker 06

  Because it's full. The sink is full.

• 37:36Esther Perel?

  Alright, so you fall for the trap. And then you say?

• 37:41Speaker 05

  I say, "If it's full, then why don't you go do the dishes?"

• 37:49Speaker 06

  Well, the reason why the dishes are there is because I put them all in there from cooking. So it's like, "I'm still cooking. Can you go do the dishes so that I can reuse them?"

• 37:59Speaker 05

  I'd say, "Okay."

• 38:02Esther Perel?

  And then you go do it?

• 38:03Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 38:04Esther Perel?

  But basically, you go do it at the price to the relationship is a few more inches of distance.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  Pretty much. Because I know she's not gonna do it. So I'd do it.

• 38:19Esther Perel?

  Right. That's okay. You do it, but the emotional distancing that accompanies it

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:27Esther Perel?

  goes in the bucket of the diminished intimacy, collaboration, and connection, and communication between the two of you. Every time you oblige, the relationship suffers. For every dish you do, the love goes down.

• 38:48Esther Perel?

  As crazy as that sounds.

• 38:53Speaker 05

  I think it's true. Because I've been feeling, having those kind of thoughts. Because I'm doing these things. Not just dishes, but anything in general. Like, "Man, did I marry the right girl?" You know, things like that come to my mind. Like, "Man, what did I get myself into?"

• 39:14Esther Perel?

  But it's so interesting how people always ask themselves, "How is it that this is not the person that I thought she was?" They never ask themselves, "How different am I from the person she thought I was?"

• 39:29Esther Perel?

  It's both and.

• 39:31Speaker 05

  It is.

• 39:35Esther Perel?

  So imagine that you come and you say, "Can you do the dishes?" How do you answer her from the position of an adult now?

• 39:48Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 39:54Speaker 05

  Because every time I, personally, every time I try to,

• 40:01Speaker 05

  there's always conflict.

• 40:02Esther Perel?

  Tell me more. What are we talking about?

• 40:06Speaker 05

  So I would say, "Let's do the dishes tomorrow morning." It never gets done in the morning. And I usually try to rush home after work to do the dishes. So I can just do it and get it out of the way before I get yelled at or before she finds out.

• 40:28Esther Perel?

  But she understood that I get yelled at and she finds out? That is the way a child speaks about a parent.

• 40:36Speaker 05

  Right.

• 40:37Esther Perel?

  That is not an equal adult.

• 40:39Speaker 05

  That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't know how to find that equal.

• 40:42Speaker 06

  It's kind of funny because he acts like a child. That's why I yell at him.

• 40:47Esther Perel?

  I get it.

• 40:48Speaker 05

  Well, to de-escalate the situation, of course.

• 40:51Esther Perel?

  But you're not de-escalating it.

• 40:53Speaker 05

  I'm like, "Ugh." I don't want to make it bigger than it really is. It's just a pile of dishes. It's not that big of a deal.

• 40:58Esther Perel?

  Then you just, you look. The more you're gonna do it like that, and the more she will become exactly the character you don't like her to be.

• 41:11Esther Perel?

  So, we're gonna have to change the choreography here.

• 41:16Speaker 05

  Yeah. I'm trying.

• 41:19Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 41:21Speaker 05

  Just don't know how.

• 41:22Esther Perel?

  The first thing is, you put aside all the ways that you've already dealt with it that you know don't work.

• 41:32Esther Perel?

  If you were fixing one of your IT things, you would not try to do one more time something that you've already done five times and it doesn't work.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 41:44Esther Perel?

  That's right. How can we think about creating a little bit more of goodwill, warmth, communication, playfulness? So that we not just become this rigid management ink? But every time the management takes over, the love disappears?

• 42:07Esther Perel?

  Because your little girl, she's looking at you.

• 42:13Esther Perel?

  Do you have a picture of her?

• 42:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 42:16Esther Perel?

  I think we need to put a picture of her on the table because she's watching you.

• 42:24Esther Perel?

  And since you love her more than anything on this planet, you're gonna do this emotional growing up. She's watching you.

• 42:35Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 42:36Esther Perel?

  And she will watch you avoid her mother every time.

• 42:41Esther Perel?

  And she will watch her mother yell at you to try to get you engaged. And then you will react. And then she will not know at first who she needs to identify with. And she will be upset at mom because mom yells. And then she will be upset at dad because he makes mom yell. And then she will be upset at mom because she's not nice to dad. And then she will be upset at dad because he's cheating.

• 43:08Esther Perel?

  And this is your choice. You can say, "We're gonna give her a different story"

• 43:15Esther Perel?

  than the ones that you had.

• 43:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  We always think about her every day.

• 43:26Esther Perel?

  But in this way?

• 43:29Speaker 05

  Not often.

• 43:30Esther Perel?

  Instead of saying, "Did I marry the right person?", you can ask yourself, "What's my little girl learning from me now?

• 43:37Esther Perel?

  What am I teaching her at this very moment?"

• 43:41Esther Perel?

  It'll bring the best out of you.

• 43:44Esther Perel?

  You understand? If I placate her mom, if I just get up, if I sit there playing my video games while mom is running around doing this, that, and the other like a chicken without a head, what am I teaching her?

• 43:58Speaker 05

  That. It's okay. It's normal. But it's not. Obviously, it's not fair.

• 44:07Speaker 06

  I create those lists, to-do lists and schedules because I want to create a tradition. When I cook, let's all sit down and eat together. But he withdraws. And I'm just like, "It's not a bad thing what I'm trying to do."

• 44:23Esther Perel?

  No.

• 44:24Speaker 06

  Um, but then now I feel guilty about it because it's like, he doesn't want to participate.

• 44:29Esther Perel?

  But what is missing is grace.

• 44:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, essentially, yeah.

• 44:35Esther Perel?

  So that if he says, "We need to tweak it", just simply say to him, "What do you suggest?"

• 44:46Esther Perel?

  So that he doesn't just complain, but contributes.

• 44:51Esther Perel?

  And it's not your list, it's our list.

• 44:57Esther Perel?

  How is it working for you? How is it working for you? What would change, what would make it better for me is this. I would like to try that. That's collaborative problem solving.

• 45:09Esther Perel?

  So if you want your girl to have the family that you didn't have, you have to invest in the couple.

• 45:16Esther Perel?

  You're investing everything in her and not enough in you.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to esterperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esterperel.com.

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