Family Secrets with Kerry Washington

Many of us grow up wrestling with the feeling that we don’t quite fit into our families—but what happens when that feeling is rooted in a hidden truth? Kerry Washington joins us to talk about the deeply personal family secret that inspired her powerful memoir, “Thicker Than Water,” and how she’s managed to protect her privacy and set boundaries while writing such a candid story. She reflects on her most iconic roles from “Save the Last Dance” to “Scandal.” Recorded prior to the 2024 US presidential election, she also makes a strong case for why voting matters, and then we test her astrological intuition in a game of “Virgo or Aquarius?” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is sponsored by the good old folks over at Airbnb. This holiday season, be sure to check out the most loved homes on Airbnb by taking a look at guest favorites. Take it from me, some trips are better in an Airbnb. Now, let's start the show.

• 0:21Keke Palmer?

  Hello, it's your girl Keke Palmer here for another episode of Baby, This is Keke Palmer. Today, I have somebody I truly look up to on the show as an artist, a mother, a voice for progress. It's Kerry Washington, okay? And we're going to get into her memoir and how she's been able to keep her family life private while telling her deepest, darkest secrets to the world. I know this is gonna be a good one because, baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 1:14Keke Palmer?

  Okay Sharon, I'm excited to talk to you today. First of all, because I love talking to you. Secondly, we're gonna be talking with Kerry Washington about her memoir that she just, you know, that she came out with not too long ago and shared a lot of stuff. So I think the topic of the day is ultimately, how to share things in your life while also maintaining your privacy.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34Keke Palmer?

  And I know you and I talk about this a lot because you have no problem sharing, but as a Virgo, you also know when to say, "That ain't nothing your business."

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42Keke Palmer?

  And I'd love to hear what are the factors that let you know what you want to tell and what you don't want to tell?

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I grew up in a home where my mother was very old school in regards to your personal life. And she would say things like, "You don't never have to talk about your man or your money." You know, and so I grew up hearing that. And she was like, no one needs to know how much you make. And no one needs to know all the, anything that's going on between you and your husband or your man or whatever. Because they're not gonna understand it. Normally, when people tell things about their spouses or, or, uh, partners, they only telling it from one side anyway. So you're only hearing what they want you to hear. So at the end of the day, I just think that you don't owe the world any of your personal business.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  You can entertain without telling everybody all your intimate secrets. Now, if there's something you wanna share, like how you shared your long struggle with your acne and your, that's something you wanna share. That's something that you wanted to share. I'm sure some entertainers were like, oh my gosh, she shared that, you know? And, but that was something that was freeing to you.

• 2:52Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Because you was just so tired of living with that and having to hide and do makeup and get up at five in the morning to cover up.

• 3:00Keke Palmer?

  I learned how to do my makeup at 11 years old because of the acne, how it's, how early it started.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  So for you to say that, that was freeing for you. I thought that was just, I thought it was brave and, and for you, you just said it was just freeing.

• 3:12Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, it was freeing. And, and, and to the question I'd asked you, I think a big part of that for me is like, I'm cool with sharing if it's gonna help somebody else. I'm not here for a tea party with some bitter ass tea boo. Like, I can't do that with you. What I can do is I could share a little, we could sip a little something if it's gonna be on that hottie toddy vibe. I want you to feel better. I want us to feel better and move on. And so I think it's like, for me, if I'm gonna share something personal, it's not only the reason why I'm sharing it, which is usually if somebody, if it's a testimony, if it's something that somebody else can engage with personally, you know, it's something, a message that I've learned, something that I think is impactful and I wanna use myself as a case study, then maybe I'll share. And then also, it's the way that I share.

• 3:53Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? I think that's a big thing too. Like, I think about this all the time with platforms. What you might share on Twitter may not be what you share on Instagram.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 4:01Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? What you share on YouTube and what you can do in a vlog, it's not something you're gonna be able to do on a TikTok.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Right. You gotta know what the agendas of these sites. Like, you know, Twitter is just very toxic right now. You know, it's, it's really hard to have a conversation or to say anything because it has a mentality of attack.

• 4:19Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  You know, is nobody's-

• 4:21Keke Palmer?

  And I think it always has. Like, I think it always has been a hundred forty characters or less. Meaning, you're looking at where, it's the same thing with text messages.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:29Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes they suck the soul out and the emotion out. And unless you've really become aware of that person's voice and what you're reading it from, like for instance, somebody like Rihanna. She would say the most vile shit and we'd be like, "Yes, bitch." Because we've become accustomed, we've become accustomed to her voice. And we knew the level of sarcasm and the level of, "Hey, leave me alone, I'm protecting myself," that came with that sassy remark.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 4:52Keke Palmer?

  And so I think some people can break through with that on, on, on platforms like Twitter and say what they want to say and it's, you know, taken in the format in which you know their voice and know their vibe.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:02Keke Palmer?

  And other times, people are just reading things very plainly. Whereas on Instagram, you can actually see the person's vibe, their inflections. But then the funny thing about social media as well is wherever that ends up, then makes it take another turn. Because if it ends up on people, it's like, "She's so real." If it ends up on Shade Room, "Let's drag the bitch." It like goes from, you know, so the, the perspective and where you choose to say something and where it lands.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  It's a strategy to it, that's for sure. Well, I just think, again, I'm from the school of thought of, you don't owe people your personal business.

• 5:33Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  And you are the person that deem what is personal.

• 5:36Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  And let them talk about it and create stories or whatever, but the reality of it is, you don't owe that. If you're uploading your whole life online for all the world to see, then that means you are asking, you giving people permission to make comments and potshots about you. I get that, and I know that some celebrities do that, but you're not a celebrity that, that does that. Your things that you post, even with, even stuff with your baby, I love your website for him. And it says, "I'm a little kid," or "Be careful what you say," what does it say?

• 6:08Keke Palmer?

  It's, "Be careful what you say, my parents run this site." But even with that, that's, I've, I've posted something recently about that where it's like, people are giving unsolicited advice on my baby. You know, where that is annoying, you know what I mean? But it's like, how much of that do I have to, like, I did a post where I was pretty much saying- Stop scaring the shit out of these mamas.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:28Keke Palmer?

  Because y'all get up on here and y'all use this kind of privileged measure of what makes a good mom. You gotta feed your baby this, you gotta do this with your baby, you gotta take your baby, your baby gotta see sun two hours a day. Your baby gotta do this, your baby gotta do that. And it's like, everybody, everybody's not doing that. And that doesn't mean that their baby's not being loved.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  And I love what you said when you said, "I was raised on sodium."

• 6:47Keke Palmer?

  Honey, if we, if we went by everything that those people were saying, I would be done.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Well, I just, I just wanna say, on behalf of sodium, there is nothing like a good Spam sandwich with some eggs and mayo. You just slice a little tomato, slice it in half, that's the best ghetto, over saturated sodium, high blood pressure sandwich that you could ever have. But it's so good.

• 7:14Keke Palmer?

  Literally. And at the end of the day, if I'm still moving, I'm still grooving.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Spam, I'm here for you. I can promote the Spam sandwich. So good.

• 7:24Keke Palmer?

  Spam, I'm here for you.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  And one a week ain't gonna kill you guys. Just eat it and walk around the block. Okay, thank you.

• 7:31Keke Palmer?

  Mom, you are too, too funny. Okay, something I wanna bring up, when I wrote my book, Master of Me, the concept of it is, life is gonna come at you regardless of, of you doing everything correct. There is an uncertainty, there is a testimony being written. There is a path of something that needs to happen, so it can be the, you know, cause and effect of you to become who you're gonna become. You gotta be open to that.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:52Keke Palmer?

  So it makes me wanna ask you, you know, cause obviously with anyone in the public eye, there are gonna be responses. How do you feel about that with me? How do you deal with the fact of seeing me live my life, seeing me live my truth, and sometimes being, um, attacked, or probed, or whatever that you could, how, how does that affect the family?

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. When you were a young woman, when you were a teenager, it bothered me profusely. Because they didn't know who you were, and they attacked you, and they would say ridiculous things. I remember there was a rapper who was really popular, and, um, they had him, and it was some girl with a black wig. I mean, you, you, you couldn't even see the face. You couldn't even see the girl's face.

• 8:34Keke Palmer?

  I remember that.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Saw a long black wig and the guy was, the famous rapper was laying on the bed and the girl looked like she was giving him, you know,

• 8:41Keke Palmer?

  fellatio.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  fellatio. And they were like, this is Keke Palmer. And I mean, I remember it trending on Twitter.

• 8:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  That shit pissed me off because it was like, if she was doing it, first of all, she didn't know, but if she was doing it, why the fuck y'all would think she would put herself in a position to be videotaped? I taught her better than that. You know, come on. But, but, but at the end of the day, that kind of stuff bothered me because it was kind of like, people were excited to tear down little Keke Palmer. You know, he never came out and said, guys, that's not Keke Palmer. In fact, he was silent. So then that let me know, okay, mom, you need to get with it. That's how some of these rappers promote their music. So it wasn't so much personal against Keke Palmer. They wanted to use your brand to create all this excitement and sell records.

• 9:32Keke Palmer?

  And honestly, I speak about this in my book. Entertainment for people is entertainment, period.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:36Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? As much as some people really do support, I think ultimately my brand is more than, for me, it's more than just, hey, I'm, I'm a singer, I'm a performer dancer. I really believe in community. Like you said, like, since I started performing, it was always about, how I could be, do positive representation, use my art as a form of activism that felt true to me. Obviously, I'm not, you know, going to just try to be somebody I'm not, but I care about my community. I care about what I put out there. Like, that's just my personality. That's how I was raised. But at the end of the day, to the point that you're making is like, people don't know me. They don't.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 10:08Keke Palmer?

  They only know my work. And that's something that I had to, you know, it could be dehumanizing as an entertainer, and I've spoken about this before, where, you know, you kind of have to relinquish the idea that people really care. You know what I mean? Like, maybe your work hits them at certain points in times. Maybe somebody does follow your career and feel what you're doing and saying. But there's going to be a large portion that really just see you as just some kind of object. You know what I mean? And a lot of times, it's really truly not personal to them. It's just something to talk about. It's something to, you know, it's no emotions attached to it. So you can't attach emotions to it.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  That's what I had to learn. So that, so the old Sharon, who was so- Angry about that post, the new Sharon would just smile and laugh at it. Because I understand.

• 10:54Keke Palmer?

  Meek Mills, I I I don't even, people, you say Meek Mills all the time and I'm not even sure if it's Meek Mills. I think it's Meek Mill. Cause you done always said Mills.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  I will change, I will change your name.

• 11:08Keke Palmer?

  I started thinking it's Meek Mills. It's just Meek Mill Sharon. Anyway. So Meek Mill, they recently, you know, started a rumor about him. And.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:18Keke Palmer?

  It's not even so much the context of the rumor. Whatever people want to do with their life, they can do with their life. But it's the fact that it's a rumor and it's not true. And that he said it's not true. And he said it countless time and, you know.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  That's why when you answer to it, that's what they do.

• 11:30Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? But Meek Mill, I mean, nobody is a perfect person.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:34Keke Palmer?

  But as far what I done seen from Meek, he he a cool guy to me. I met him a couple of times. He's uh been positive in the community, done a lot of work in Philadelphia, try to make sure he helps with prison reform. He's been pretty positive and especially as somebody that's coming from the streets. He trying to do something positive with that. He never really did nothing to me that was really like.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  When they pile on you, they expect everybody to pile on you.

• 11:59Keke Palmer?

  And he's spoken about that recently where it's just, it was interesting because Mike Rubin defended Meek Mill. He kind of did, I think, a conversation on Breakfast Club or something. Where he pretty much was talking about how that was wrong, how the community did him. And there's something in the community where, you know, there's always this kind of hating on one another. I guess kind of describing like crabs in a barrel type of vibe. And then other people, you know, that are big in the community, journalists, I think Charlamagne the God or some other people said, hey, you don't have a right to speak on that. Um and so Mike Rubin came back and he apologized. But then.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  So they were so, Charlamagne was saying that this this white man, Mike, could not, is not qualified to speak on what's going on.

• 12:39Keke Palmer?

  Right, how the community treats and responds to each other, however, you know, whatever, our community business. And Meek Mill then came the next day, and I'm paraphrasing, but he posted online something about like, you know, it's valid. That was valid with with Charlamagne and them whoever had said. But if my groom is not gonna do it, who in the community is? I'm paraphrasing.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  That makes me sad to hear that.

• 13:00Keke Palmer?

  It made me sad too. Because it's like, damn, that is true. I do agree that in that fashion, yeah, maybe this person doesn't have a right to speak on it into this regard, um, as somebody that is on the outside of the community. But what does that mean? What is the uplifting that happens within the community when somebody just, I mean, like, it's a joke, but only so long can it be a joke.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  What I wanna say is, you know, you really just have to be, uh, focused and true to yourself. And I don't know what it's like to be an entertainer and to be attacked, and for your words to be twisted, and for people to just be waiting for you to say something that they can twist. I don't know what that anxiety is like. But all I do know is if you speak from your heart, and you just be a genuine person, it's gonna all work out. It's gonna all work out.

• 13:46Keke Palmer?

  It does give you a lot of anxiety, I think, especially if you're somebody that really, really cares about what it is you're putting out there. Like, if you're, you know what I mean? I think sometimes people are just like, I'm just an entertainer, I'm just here to make some money, boom, boom. And then some people are like, well, I would like to be a vessel for positivity. I would like to put, and I think if you're that kind of person, then it can be tough. But the reality is, is people gonna always hear what they wanna hear. They're gonna always be willing to twist your words, and you kinda just gotta let go. You gotta do your, do your best and let go.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  And people are going to be jealous. People, they say hater or whatever. People are going to be jealous. People want what celebrities have. They want it. They don't want to having to get up at four and five in the morning, but they want the things that they see in Instagram and all those. Makes it looks like the celebrity life is so fun and so simple.

• 14:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and also, it's just, life is just crazy sometimes. It really, really is. Um, okay, let's get into this with Carrie, mom. You're always amazing.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you keep doing you, and fuck what anybody gotta say. Haters, jealousy, whatever you wanna call them. Fuck them, keep doing you, trusting in God. That's what I gotta say.

• 14:52Keke Palmer?

  Thank you.

• 14:59Keke Palmer?

  Look, we all know that holidays can be stressful. But do they have to be? We all know that some trips are better in an Airbnb, and that includes holiday travel. Picture this: Instead of cramming into grandma's guest room or fighting over the pullout couch, you could be chilling in a cozy cabin with the fireplace or living it up in a spacious house with room for everyone, all within driving distance. So for those moments when you're tired of being reminded of all the pressures of the holidays, check out nearby guest favorites on Airbnb. Find a cute little cottage on the outskirts of town, cook up a family feast in a fully-equipped kitchen, play board games in the living room, or have a movie marathon with the babies. And the best part? You get to make memories in a place that feels like home,

• 15:42Keke Palmer?

  but with all the excitement of being somewhere new. Remember my Joshua Tree moment I was telling y'all about a couple months ago? I'm trying to tell y'all. Airbnb's got you covered for those local getaways that feel like a world away. It truly felt like I was on another planet, but it was only a couple hours away. So this holiday season, why not switch it up with Airbnb? You deserve a relaxing holiday season.

• 16:06Keke Palmer?

  'Tis the season for year-end wrap-ups, and baby, Audible is coming in hot with this year's best in audio entertainment. Audible's Best of 2024 picks are here, bringing you the year's top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals across all your favorite genres. From memoirs and sci-fi to mysteries and thrillers, romance and well-being to fiction. Audible's carefully curated list is the perfect way to experience 2024's finest audio offerings. You can dive into a star-studded production of George Orwell's 1984, putting a whole new spin on this grade-school classic with cutting-edge sound effects and bold, dramatic choices. For those who like to indulge in romance, there's Emily Henry's Funny Story.

• 16:49Keke Palmer?

  Or for those looking to tap into the strength of the American spirit, you can listen to Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson's memoir, Lovely One. And for my fiction fans, y'all can immerse yourself in a captivating fiction such as The Woman by Kristin Hannah or Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. This holiday season gives yourself the gift of imagination. With Audible, there's more to imagine when you listen. Discover all the year's best waiting for you at audible.com/bestoftheyear.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Baby, this is, this is Kiki.

• 17:27Keke Palmer?

  Guys, do not get me started on how thrilled I am to have our guest here today. Okay, she's an absolute powerhouse of the silver screen and the small screen. She starred in Academy Award winning movies like The Last, King of Scotland, Emmy winning award, TV shows, shout out to Scandal, and my favorite, Don't Just Be Here to Just Be Here. Turn around and open up your pretty brown eyes. Y'all know Save the Last Dance, okay? She recently released her memoir called Thicker Than Water. I am so pleased to welcome to the show an absolute icon, Kerry Washington.

• 17:56Speaker 03

  Oh my god, what an intro!

• 17:59Keke Palmer?

  You know how long, I mean, I've watched Save the Last Dance back to back to back to back. Girl, you're better than Chanel. That's when I first met you.

• 18:07Speaker 03

  I loved that character. Doing that movie changed my life. She was like, you know, I felt such a responsibility with that character because she was a teen mom.

• 18:17Keke Palmer?

  Yep.

• 18:18Speaker 03

  And coming from the Bronx, I knew that I wanted that role because I wanted her to be a real human being. I wanted people to see her and to love her and to not see her as like a statistic, right? To see her as a real human being, as one of the girls I grew up with. So, I poured my heart and soul into that role, into that movie.

• 18:37Keke Palmer?

  You did that in that scene. Open up your pretty brown eyes. Don't just be here to just be here. That accent, that vibe, you was in Chicago, but it was like, is she from New York?

• 18:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was giving you New York.

• 18:47Keke Palmer?

  It ate down. But I think you've always continued to do roles like that, that made us think, that made people feel real. Definitely not a statistic and something that we could hold on to. Just recently, you've just finished filming season two of Imprisoned on Hulu.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 19:00Keke Palmer?

  How was that? How was working with Delroy Lindo?

• 19:02Speaker 03

  So, working with Delroy, that was a dream come true for me. I remember being in high school and I went to see the autobiography of Malcolm X. And he plays this character with Cynthia Archie, who does this thing, it's like, he changed my idea of what was possible as an actor because he plays him at the height of his life and then at the lowest point in his life. And it's such a beautiful arc, it really inspired me. So when I read this script and we were trying to think of like, who would be the right guy to play my dad? And the show is about a father, daughter, and a son, like a grandfather, daughter, son. And he's been in and out of prison my whole life. And when he gets out of prison, he comes to live with me. And it's kind of how we figure out. How to coexist in a lifetime of being separated by these systems.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  And I love it because the show is a lot about what it is to be somebody who's a returning citizen in society, but also what it means to love somebody who's been caught up in these systems and how it impacts families. So I knew that the guy who played my dad had to be somebody who was elegant, who had major swag, who you could believe was both a career criminal, but also somebody that you love and trust.

• 20:12Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  And you know, is the life of the party.

• 20:13Keke Palmer?

  The nuance.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  And that's Del Roy. So when he said yes, I felt so honored. And I love working with him because every single day he makes me better. You know those people, I feel like you're like this, where you have one gear and it's excellence. Like you don't phone it in, right? Like when you show up to something.

• 20:32Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes I wish I could, but no, I don't.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  But you don't because you're so passionate. And Del Roy's like that. When he comes to set, there's only 100. There's no, he's never going to give you 50, he's never going to give you 75 because he won't go to bed at night if he does. And so that makes everybody around him better.

• 20:47Keke Palmer?

  I love that. I feel like you always are doing stuff that allows for these nuanced conversations with family.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:55Keke Palmer?

  Even with Little Fires Everywhere. I mean, I ate that up like that. It was so good, the relationship dealing with race, the neighborhood, your daughter. I mean, how was that experience filming that project? And I'm so mad that I didn't get more of it.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  Oh, we decided just to end it on the first season. Because it was limited and it was based on a beautiful novel, which if you haven't read it, you should read it. It's gorgeous, Little Fires. Yeah, I loved working on that project because, you know, people always ask me if I'm drawn to political work.

• 21:23Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  And I feel like, yes. I feel like because I center black women in my work, because I am a black woman, because I'm interested in telling nuanced stories about who we are and what we go through and how we feel, how we think, that is sort of a political act. So for me, being able to tell stories about black women where we matter, where you see us, where you can't walk by us, you can't think of us as a statistic. You can't just like know that all these black men are in prison. And not feel for their daughters and feel for their grandchildren and feel for how these systems impact generations. That to me is the point is to make people stop and think. Either, you know, I love when people come up to me when they see something like Little Fires

• 22:07Speaker 03

  or Unprisoned and they say like, wow, I really saw myself in a way that I've never seen myself before. Or when people come up and say, I've never thought about it that way.

• 22:16Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  I feel like you gave me a window into a world that I didn't know existed or didn't care about before. So to me, that's the magic of what we do is we make people feel seen and we make people see things that they normally wouldn't take the time to see. And black women fall into that category. Not everybody wants to see us.

• 22:32Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  But in our work, you have to deal with black women.

• 22:36Keke Palmer?

  And like you were saying, even with Say the Last Dance and that Chanel character, not seeing it just on the surface, actually.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 22:43Keke Palmer?

  Humanizing.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  That's right. Seeing that like that we, like everybody else, we want to be loved. We want to be accepted. We want to belong. We want to love and be loved. You know that that's that our humanity.

• 22:53Keke Palmer?

  Speaking of the magic of just storytelling and what it lends to the audience, I often find it lends a lot to me and points to where I am in my life. And so I don't know when you wrote your book, They're Giving Water, but I'm wondering if there was any collide between the topics that you were working on and what you were putting into your book and what you wanted to share ultimately.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  It's so funny because I talk about that in the book about how I feel like every character I play teaches me something, right? They come into my life like a like a wise sage. And they say like, Carrie, you got to work through this issue. You I need you to work through these ideas and themes. So you're going to step into this character, but when you leave, you're going to know yourself more.

• 23:32Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  And that is the greatest gift of what we do in many ways, right? Um, so for me, it was crazy. In Little Fires, you know, I so when Reese Witherspoon sent me the novel Little Fires Everywhere, I read it. I couldn't put it down. I always say to her, like, you made me a bad mom that weekend because my kids were knocking on the bathroom door. And I was like, I can't talk. But I didn't know then what I learned later, which is what I really write about in my memoir, which is that my dad is not my biological father. And so it wasn't until after I had agreed with Reese to do this project that I got that news. And then I went back and looked at the project. And the project is all about being the mom of a child who doesn't know who she is.

• 24:15Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  Who's asking, who is my father? Tell me who my father is. And so that project was really an opportunity for me to step into my parents' shoes, into the fear that they had about telling me the truth of who I was.

• 24:28Keke Palmer?

  That must have created a space with so much compassion.

• 24:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 24:31Keke Palmer?

  Because I imagine when you first hear something like that, you'd be pissed off.

• 24:34Speaker 03

  I was like.

• 24:35Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 24:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, there was a part of me that was like, I understood why you didn't tell me for the first 20 years, but I'm in a grown ass woman for 20 years. So at what point were you gonna tell me? I was struggling with some of that. And when I took on this character and I had this young woman, the brilliant Lexi Underwood.

• 24:49Keke Palmer?

  She, shout out to Lexi. I love her.

• 24:52Speaker 03

  She's amazing.

• 24:53Keke Palmer?

  Such a sweet young woman.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  And we would do these scenes where she would say, tell me, why can't you tell me? And I would have to really, really step into my parents' greatest fears. And that was really helpful. It was very healing. And I think in Unprisoned, similarly, you know, what I write about a lot in the memoir is kind of the disconnect between me and my dad and trying to figure out how to make peace with each other. And.

• 25:20Keke Palmer?

  And you felt this all the time with your bio dad? Or with the dad that raised you?

• 25:24Speaker 03

  With my dad that raised me.

• 25:25Keke Palmer?

  You always felt a disconnection.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  I always knew there was something going on in our family and I didn't know what it was.

• 25:30Keke Palmer?

  Did it feel relieving then?

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:31Keke Palmer?

  To a certain degree, to be like, oh, my dad, like that?

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:34Keke Palmer?

  Phew.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  And I felt like, one of the things I said to my dad was, you know, every time that I have said I love you in our life together, it's been kind of on the pretense of a lie. Like you, there must have been some little part of your brain that thought she loves me because she thinks I am her dad. And if she finds out that I'm not, which he will always be my dad, but when she finds out I'm not her biological father, she may not love me. And so one of the greatest journeys of them telling me the truth was that I got to rebuild what truth is with my parents. I got to rebuild what love is. I got to love my dad unconditionally for the first time, without the pretense, without the lie between us. And that is so much of what Unprisoned is about.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  It's like this dad comes out of prison. He comes to live with my character Paige. And we have to figure out how to love each other, dealing with our truth. We have to figure out how to move past the disconnect that has kept us separated, which for those two, it was these bars and this life in the system. And we have to figure out how to love each other today, in the now, in the truth.

• 26:39Keke Palmer?

  So poetic.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  So I got to really, again, like, deal with some of my own stuff by pouring my heart into the show.

• 26:47Keke Palmer?

  I love to hear that it felt relieving because I actually had a friend who discovered that same thing. But because of her, the distinct attention in her relationship with her father, and the way that she felt her mother dealt with it, it kind of created more heartache when she realized, so this man wasn't my father all this time, and that created this tension. So I'm really, you know, I just think it's amazing that you talked about this in your book and shared your experience because this happens more than people realize.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  So often.

• 27:13Keke Palmer?

  A lot of people don't really, you know what I mean? And it's like, how do I then respond to it? Am I, do I feel relieved that all my questions have been answered? Or am I now questioning my identity?

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 27:22Keke Palmer?

  And the basis of who I've made myself a.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  But even that, right? Even like, the gift, I think, and some of this comes from what we do and seeing that every hero's journey, any TV show you watch, any movie you watch, you go through the hard stuff to get to the good stuff. And so when this happened, when this kind of revelation happened for my family, I knew this is an opportunity. Even this feeling I have of like, oh my God, I don't even know who I am. That's an opportunity to know myself more. This feeling of like, wow, my parents aren't who I thought they were. It's an opportunity for me to now see them and know them in a new kind of intimacy. So I think that that's the gift.

• 28:02Keke Palmer?

  That is such strength. Would you say that that strength that you discovered is why you wanted to share that with the world?

• 28:08Speaker 03

  So, the crazy thing was, I had sold a book.

• 28:13Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 28:14Speaker 03

  Before they told me, I was working on a book proposal, kind of like the 10 things I learned from Olivia Pope.

• 28:20Keke Palmer?

  Oh, I love that.

• 28:21Speaker 03

  I know, I should write that book.

• 28:23Keke Palmer?

  I would write that one as well.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  Okay, noted. And so when they told me, I now had this new kind of drama in my life. And every time I sat down to write about myself in this kind of cutesy, self-reflective, but not as deep and searching book, I couldn't write it. I couldn't write about myself without dealing with this new truth that I was dealing with. So I never intended to write that book. I actually tried to give the publisher back their money. I was like, I can't, I can't write a book right now.

• 28:55Keke Palmer?

  They was like, no, no, no.

• 28:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were patient. They were wisely patient with me. And they just kept saying like, well, maybe you should write about whatever is you're going through. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not writing that book. And then eventually I was like, I think my family deserves this book. Because we worked so hard on our healing. And I've always been so private, you know, like it's, it's, you're hard pressed to find pictures of my kids online. I don't talk about my marriage. I'm very, very private.

• 29:22Keke Palmer?

  Which I live for.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  But you know, I've always been very public with my parents. Like they were the ones who kind, I would bring them to events. They won the red carpet. I would do interviews with them. So I felt like, well, now I need to be honest about who my parents are and what our relationship is. And I didn't want anybody else to own that narrative. I was like, this is our story and I want to write it right. I don't want it to like break in some tabloid that the cute guy in the dad jokes video on Instagram isn't my dad, right? I was like, I want to tell the story that this person is not my biological father, that this has had a big impact on who we are as a family. But he's my dad and he will always be my dad.

• 30:00Keke Palmer?

  Ooh. Yeah, I mean, I think that's big for us in our industry because we're always kind of, especially with social media. We're always at this window where. People gonna either pull up something we said, try to dig into something that's private. And I think, yeah, you've always been really amazing at having private life.

• 30:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:16Keke Palmer?

  But still, we feel like we can touch you. And I think even still with sharing this big thing, there's still, I still feel that like, this is what I'm letting you know.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:24Keke Palmer?

  This is how I'm dealing with it, you know, and that's it.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:27Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 30:28Speaker 03

  I know. I had one woman stand up on my book tour and she was like, "You're so personal. You're pouring so much of yourself in this book. We feel like we know you in a way we never have before, but you don't talk about any of your men in the book." I said, "That is correct, ma'am." I talk about when I met my husband. You got a little bit more than you know about that. And we're gonna end it right there.

• 30:52Keke Palmer?

  As I was saying earlier, Audible's Best of the Year picks are in. And honey, I am sad. Every year, Audible puts together a list of the best of the best when it comes to audio entertainment. I'm talking top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals in all your favorite genres. The works, okay? Now my ears are immediately perked up when I saw that they listed Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson's memoir, lovely one, as one of the year's must-listen titles. I checked it out and it basically felt like I was having a heart-to-heart with the first black woman on the Supreme Court, okay? Really powerful stuff, y'all. From memoirs and sci-fi to mysteries and thrillers, from romance and well-being to fiction, Audible's carefully curated list in every category

• 31:36Keke Palmer?

  is the best way to hear 2024's Best of the Year in audio entertainment. Audible, I mean, there's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com/bestoftheyear and discover all the year's best waiting for you.

• 31:53Keke Palmer?

  I also love the title. Obviously, it has a big part of what we're talking about here.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:57Keke Palmer?

  What made you come to it? I mean, it could be the obvious, but I'm curious on during writing it, did you already have thicker than water in your mind? Or did that come at the very end?

• 32:04Speaker 03

  It came at the end. There's a moment in the book where I say, "If it's true that blood is thicker than water, then love is thicker than blood."

• 32:14Keke Palmer?

  Wait a minute, I'm like, "Yes, you hate that."

• 32:18Speaker 03

  So, so that was what... But then when I... It's so funny, I was talking to Trevor Noah and he...

• 32:22Keke Palmer?

  Love him.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Thank you. And he was one of the first people who read my memoir because I love his memoir so much and he's a dear friend. And he said to me, "You know..." In the Bible, actually, we misunderstand that verse thicker than water. Because what it really is, is that the blood of the covenant, when we sign an agreement, when we get into contract with somebody, that that is thicker than the water of the womb. So really, we've been saying it wrong all this time.

• 32:51Keke Palmer?

  We always are doing that.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  Right? That the Bible actually says our relationships are more important than our family relationships, than what we're born to.

• 33:00Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  So I really felt like this is so right, that my dad, like, it doesn't matter if I don't have my dad's blood coursing through my veins, he's my family.

• 33:09Keke Palmer?

  I love that. I think that's so true. Like, it really is true. At the end of the day, those, those are the relationships that we, I don't want to say choose, but yeah, to a certain extent, we choose. Because just because somebody is your brother, your sister, your uncle, it don't mean that y'all tight. It don't mean that y'all have that relationship. That doesn't mean that that love is there.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  Don't you also feel like, there's a thing I say to my kids at night that I talk about in the book, and I, I know you will relate to this as a mom, I say to them, "Thank you for choosing me."

• 33:32Keke Palmer?

  Yes!

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Right? Because I feel like, also, these kids come into our lives, and we get the opportunity to be better for them.

• 33:41Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  To be able to service who they're becoming.

• 33:44Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  And that's also something that I feel like we're really dealing with in Unprisoned, this idea of like, you get born to, or, or you come into the families that are the places where you're gonna find the most healing. If you have the courage to step into that healing, then you have the opportunity to grow.

• 34:04Keke Palmer?

  That's a big part of why I hate when people center themselves in parent and child relationships. Obviously, we all have a community, but my big thing is, like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you think that that should have been the kid's mom, or that should have been the kid's dad. God said.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:17Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 34:18Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:18Keke Palmer?

  So as a parent, that's also something that's been really big for me, that I've started to realize, that, you know, just being a parent and existing in that, and what that feels like, the guilt, the wanting to be enough, the trying to make sure that you are enough, what that means to you, and then dealing with all of the headlines in the magazines, and this what you need to be, and this what you do. But the reality is, my baby chose me.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:37Keke Palmer?

  God chose me for my baby.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:38Keke Palmer?

  Whether it's blood, whether it's marriage.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  However you find each other.

• 34:41Keke Palmer?

  However it is.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  However you find each other.

• 34:43Keke Palmer?

  That's my baby. And I'm enough. You know, I think it's such a big thing, that, you know, that motherhood, or fatherhood, or parenthood. Can really teach you if you let it and decide to choose yourself.

• 34:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:54Keke Palmer?

  Which is what we were talking about earlier.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:56Keke Palmer?

  Our kids make you choose yourself.

• 34:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:58Keke Palmer?

  You know.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  It's so fun to watch because Delroy's character, one thing that I need to tell you about on Prison that is so special for me is that even though we're dealing with all these hard issues, it's a comedy. And that is like, first of all, I love doing comedy. Like I always say, my favorite weeks in my life are my honeymoon and hosting SNL. Like, I love comedy.

• 35:15Keke Palmer?

  And you also are so hilarious because you know how to play real to it.

• 35:18Speaker 03

  That's the thing, right? Because the truth is funny. Like, when you go home and you're with your family, family is funny. Because they're crazy.

• 35:24Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  And so we're dealing with those truths on the show. And I love watching Delroy's character learn that he's enough. That even though he's been in and out of the system, in and out of prison, that he's her perfect dad. Because they're both having an opportunity to grow and heal today.

• 35:40Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah. I know we were speaking about it before, just the paradox of writing a memoir, but remaining privacy, but also sharing.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:48Keke Palmer?

  And so I'm curious of how would you, maybe even advice to someone or your experience, how do you balance sharing a compelling truth while also remaining your privacy? What was the delineating factor that allowed you to feel safe, insecure in doing that?

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:03Keke Palmer?

  But then also having people know, like, because boundaries are important.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:08Keke Palmer?

  You know?

• 36:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think for me, it was really about authenticity. Like, I never want to walk in the world feeling like I'm telling a lie. And I think part of that is because, looking back now, getting this truth, I think I was being lied to from the moment I walked on this planet.

• 36:25Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:26Speaker 03

  And so I'm sensitive to it. When I feel like people aren't being honest with me, it's a real trigger. I get very activated. And I don't like to feel like I'm walking in dishonesty. So my boundaries are really, like, telling this story about my family was because I had a truth that was out there. These are my parents. And I was like, I need to course correct. I need to let you know that there's a deeper truth here. But I don't need to tell you everything. I just need to tell you enough so that I feel like I'm walking in my truth.

• 36:55Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  Not everybody needs to know everything, but I don't want to perpetuate a lie. And there was a lie that my parents were very invested in that I didn't want to participate in. So I wanted to correct the record. I wanted to own the narrative, but I don't need everybody to know everything all the time.

• 37:12Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, I feel the same exact way. And that's why I asked that question because I think a lot of times we don't know as human beings because we want to be truthful all the time. But it's like, you can't know my brains, boo.

• 37:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:21Keke Palmer?

  Like, you can't know everything. I'm thinking because that's not real. That's not, that's not also fair. Like, that's not the difference of me being real and me being fake.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:30Keke Palmer?

  Because boundaries are included in that. And so I think that's often the question that I'm always maintaining because I'm the same as you. I always want to be authentic. I always want to keep it real.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, you do such a good job with that.

• 37:40Keke Palmer?

  I appreciate that. But the way that I keep it real with my homegirls, the way I keep it real with my mom, it's different. Like, you can't be mad at me for holding a piece for myself and for my family.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:49Keke Palmer?

  But also, I'll keep it real when I know that, like you said, it's something that I don't feel comfortable in.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:54Keke Palmer?

  And it's not me walking in solidarity with who I'm saying I am.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  That's right. That's right. I don't want to be inconsistent.

• 38:00Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  But I don't have to let you know every little detail. And also, I feel like we have to give ourselves room to evolve, too. You know, like, part of why I like to be private is because I'm in process.

• 38:12Keke Palmer?

  Girl.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 38:13Keke Palmer?

  What sign are you?

• 38:13Speaker 03

  I'm an Aquarius.

• 38:14Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, I live for Aquarius. Are you January 24th? I'm Virgo.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  Oh, oh, wow.

• 38:19Keke Palmer?

  It's very best friend energy between Aquariuses and Virgos.

• 38:22Speaker 03

  Yes, I love it.

• 38:22Keke Palmer?

  Because we love to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. But you ate that because, seriously, I'm in process. In this day and age, everybody wants what you said to be what you said and they're gonna nail you to the cross. You're to death till you part. And it's like, but honey, wait a minute. I'm still not sure.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  That's right. And I'm human. And I'm changing and I'm evolving. And, yeah.

• 38:38Keke Palmer?

  That's so real. That is so, so, so, so real. Now that it's out, obviously, how do you feel? The feedback? I mean, even if, do you even care? You know, was it about you? Was it about the audience? Was it about both? How'd your family respond? You know, I mean, when your husband heard this news, when your kids heard this news?

• 38:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. My husband has been amazing. I mean, we went into family therapy, myself, my parents, and my husband. All four of us.

• 39:01Keke Palmer?

  Love it.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  Because this was like, we need to process this. We need to deal with this. We need to kind of excavate the impact that this dishonesty has had on this. Family.

• 39:10Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  And heal it. I think sharing it with the world has been a relief. I feel like I don't have anything to hide. Again, like, there may be things I don't tell you, but I'm not in hiding.

• 39:20Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 39:21Speaker 03

  I'm comfortable with myself, and it's been really beautiful to watch my dad's journey because he was not excited about this book. You know, this is his reputation.

• 39:31Keke Palmer?

  And that older generation, like, don't expose us.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Don't air the dirty laundry, right? Especially in our community. Like, there's a lot of, like, not everybody needs to know everything. Don't tell people. So watching him not just receive my unconditional love, but watching him receive unconditional love from millions of viewers, millions of readers, like, people saying, "We see you. We see how important it is that you stuck around." That even though she wasn't yours, she was yours. Like, there's power in that. And I think he was nervous that people would see him as less of a man, but the reality was, he got standing ovations and sold-out audiences all over the country. Like, that was really special, to watch him be loved in that way, not just by me, but publicly.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  Because I think it was very, very healing for him.

• 40:20Keke Palmer?

  I'm so happy to hear that. I really, really am. Sometimes what we think is on the other side of our fear is actually like, it's actually a gift that we're missing out on, that we gotta take, you know, go over that hump to get. So I'm happy to hear that. I'm sure you talk about it colorfully in the book, and I want people to read the book, but how did it come to you? Like, was it a convert, you were hanging out with your mom and dad and them, and they just accidentally spilled it out?

• 40:39Speaker 03

  No, they were gonna take this to their graves.

• 40:43Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 40:43Speaker 03

  They really were.

• 40:44Keke Palmer?

  I'm not mad at them for being able to hold a secret.

• 40:46Speaker 03

  I mean, my mother is a vault.

• 40:47Keke Palmer?

  This is a hell of a secret.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  When I tell you, she is a vault. She didn't tell her mom, she didn't tell her sisters. Like, nobody knew. Nobody knew. They didn't even really talk about it with each other. It was like, it happened, we move on. And nobody knew that 40 years later, you'd be able to do a DNA test and, like, know a different reality. So I, okay, when I was doing Scandal, I was obsessed with Skip Gates TV show, Finding Your Roots, on PBS.

• 41:13Keke Palmer?

  Oh, yes.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  And I love that show, where he goes and he finds out who people are and their lineage. And when Scandal was ending, he said, "Well, now you'll have some time. You should come do the show." And I said, "Great, this is great." And I called my parents, and I was like, "This is gonna be so fun. We're gonna learn so much about our family." And my dad started having panic attacks.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  And I was like, what's going on? And so, and actually Skip Gates knew before I did because I was like, well, you guys maybe call him, whatever it is you're worried about, like, I don't know if you think some like great, great grandparent was a pimp. Like, I don't, I don't know what it is that you're so worried about. Like, who cares?

• 41:47Keke Palmer?

  I'm hollering at the pimp.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  You know, like, what is the shameful thing that's gonna be revealed? Who cares? So I said, you guys call Skip and talk it through with him. Maybe he'll be able to make you feel better. You're of a similar generation. And so they got on the phone with him and my mom was like, so Professor Gates, let's say hypothetically that Carrie may have been conceived with a sperm donor. Would that come up on the show? And he was like, 100%. And so they were like, okay, thank you very much. We're not doing the show. So he then called them back and was like, thank God. He said, I really think you should tell her. He said, because I've been doing this work for so long.

• 42:28Speaker 03

  And in my experience, one of the most painful things that happens, because the truth always comes out, is that when the truth comes out, if somebody is no longer here, if somebody has passed, then there's no opportunity for healing. And so they very courageously did the thing that they were most terrified to do.

• 42:48Keke Palmer?

  You're an amazing storyteller, girl. I got chills. I got chills with the way that you're letting this unfold.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  You have to read it. You have to read it.

• 42:56Keke Palmer?

  Seriously, this is powerful stuff.

• 42:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was really special.

• 42:59Keke Palmer?

  And did you end up still doing the show?

• 43:01Speaker 03

  No, I didn't do the show because, because you know how TV works. It happens fast. And I thought, if we do the show, the narrative becomes Skip's narrative to tell.

• 43:11Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  And I, I need to tell this story for my family. But I did work with his team and I've been working with his team to locate my sperm donor because, so, you know, hopefully we'll have, I'll have more information there.

• 43:24Keke Palmer?

  That is so exciting. I'm here for part two of Ticking in Water. And that also sounds like a TV show. Y'all know she could produce something real quick. So who gonna be the baby Carrie? Well, let's talk about one of the most influential shows of our millennium, which is obviously Scandal. I'm really excited to talk about this with you. Because what was it like getting into the mind of Olivia Pope and creating a character this iconic? Obviously, no one gets on a project and thinks to themselves, this is gonna be the most iconic character.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  I had no idea she would be iconic. I just hoped like, somebody would tune in to watch her.

• 43:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  Looking back, I just feel so grateful for her. You know, she really changed my life. She changed a lot of people's lives.

• 44:06Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  But she really provided me an opportunity to build out my life and my career in ways that I had only imagined.

• 44:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and it changed TV. And specifically, like you were saying at the beginning, just the viewpoint of black women.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:23Keke Palmer?

  Right? I think you've done a really good job with your characters where even if you play a pregnant teen or someone that is sleeping with the president, you have a way of making, you know, I think as a black woman, a lot of times we don't get the diversity in our characters without having to deal with the fallout of not being perfect.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 44:41Keke Palmer?

  And those respectability politics.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  Yes, and I've always wanted to be flawed people.

• 44:45Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 44:46Speaker 03

  And because we're human, yes. And I think when we see black women who are lovable and flawed, then we know that we can be lovable and flawed.

• 44:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, it's like we are sometimes living on this spectrum where it's like, you gotta be in Leprechaun Back to the Hood, or, you know, or you're Oprah Winfrey's daughter.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 45:08Keke Palmer?

  It's like, baby, why can't I be a little bit of Leprechaun in the hood?

• 45:11Speaker 03

  A little bit of that. That's right. That's right. Which is true.

• 45:15Keke Palmer?

  It's so true. Nobody is one thing.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  No.

• 45:17Keke Palmer?

  And so I love how you've always been able to manage that in your career. And I think with Scandal, I think to me, that was like one of the biggest things. People were like, shit, I'm like Carrie, I'm like Olivia. I got a little bit of that, a little bit of this. And I think it's also amazing that you were political in the show, and then now you're gonna, you're also being political in our world.

• 45:34Speaker 03

  So I was very political before the show. It was one of the reasons why when I read the pilot episode of Scandal, I was like, oh my God, this has been written for me. Now, there were also like 35 black actresses in Hollywood who all felt the same way. But I, and I feel really, really blessed and lucky that I got to be her.

• 45:50Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  But my, you know, when I met Tony Goldwyn, who played the president out in Scandal, he and I used to advocate on Capitol Hill for arts funding. We used to like walk around DC talking to senators and congressmen about maintaining funding for the arts in public schools and in museums. So we had like a DC relationship before Scandal even started. But I definitely, my relationship with politics grew, for sure. You know what's funny is my work in politics, I think, is very connected to my work in acting.

• 46:23Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 46:23Speaker 03

  In that, I always want people to know how much they matter. Like, I tell stories at my production company, Simpson Street, we're always looking for stories that center people who are marginalized. That make everybody feel like they deserve to be the hero in the story of their lives. Like, each of us is on a hero's journey. Each of us is the lead character in the story of our lives. And that's the work that we're doing at Simpson Street. I feel like when it comes to voting, it's the same work. I want people to vote because I want you to understand that you have the power to transform your community. That we're voting for a president, it's a very important role, we're voting for congresspeople and senators. But they work for us.

• 47:04Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 47:04Speaker 03

  We, they, our taxes pay their salaries.

• 47:07Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 47:08Speaker 03

  We have the power to transform our communities, our neighborhoods, our states, our cities, by showing up and voting.

• 47:14Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  And I feel like, like in 2016, that crazy horrific election, in my opinion, when I woke up,

• 47:23Speaker 03

  Olivia Pope was all over social media because people were like,

• 47:25Keke Palmer?

  Who said, "Clean it up."

• 47:26Speaker 03

  Fix it.

• 47:26Keke Palmer?

  Clean it up, mama.

• 47:27Speaker 03

  You gotta fix this, right. And I kept thinking, we have forgotten how much power we have.

• 47:32Keke Palmer?

  For sure.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  That Olivia Pope is actually not real. She can't vote, she can't register voters, she can't knock on doors, she can't donate, she can't volunteer, but each of us can.

• 47:40Keke Palmer?

  And my question is, where do you think that collapse happened? Like, when I look at it from the point of view of how I grew up, I feel like some of that is like, I don't want to say a lack of information, but feeling like the information doesn't change anything. When people feel like, well, how did the Electoral College just decide this? Or what about when we all said this? Was nobody listening? And wait a minute, this was all a lie and now this was a sham? We've seen so much of that, that I think that is a big part of why people have kind of become apathetic.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:06Keke Palmer?

  Um, to being engaged. And I, and I wonder myself, how to get people back engaged? How to tell them that it does matter?

• 48:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:14Keke Palmer?

  You know, or show them that it does matter.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  I think part of it was, you had a presidency like Obama's, right? Which was so historic and I think a lot of us thought, this will change everything.

• 48:24Keke Palmer?

  Mm.

• 48:25Speaker 03

  In this one moment. And the people, the generations before us knew, they understood, because they had been doing the work for generations, that change is a slow process.

• 48:34Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  That a president cannot change everything instantly. That in some ways, his power was limited by a Congress who wouldn't approve things that he was putting forward. And so, if we're gonna make real change, it's about continuing to show up, election after election. It's about, even when we put somebody in office, continuing to show up and say, you're not doing what I want you to do. And I'm gonna vote in ways, or I'm gonna make phone calls or write letters and let you know who I am and what I want for my community.

• 49:02Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 03

  One election doesn't change things. One president can't change things. But if we continue to show up consistently, we really can have an impact.

• 49:11Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 03

  But part of that is like, holding on to that hope and not giving up.

• 49:16Keke Palmer?

  And that, to me, is one of the biggest aspects of, of a president. Is being able to make you feel hopeful.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:23Keke Palmer?

  Being able to make you feel excited and, and able to change something.

• 49:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:26Keke Palmer?

  Even though they can't make all of the decisions, to me, their big job is to stand there as a figurehead and say, y'all, we can do it. It's to be a community organizer.

• 49:33Speaker 03

  Inspiring.

• 49:34Keke Palmer?

  It's inspiring. And, um, yeah, I mean, I agree with you 100%. I love what you said about patience and stuff, because I think that's something that we all struggle with, especially in the age of, everything's one click.

• 49:43Speaker 03

  Instant gratification.

• 49:45Keke Palmer?

  I can get this like that. The idea that I'm gonna have to be into it every week.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:50Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? Or, I got to, I think that's so important, it's so real to, to say that, yeah, that's the reality.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:56Keke Palmer?

  The reality isn't... Voting in four years and hey, seeing, checking in in the next four years.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  No.

• 50:01Keke Palmer?

  No, no, no.

• 50:02Speaker 03

  Any kind of wellness requires consistency, right? Like, you don't go to the gym once, or even for one month, and think that's gonna last you your lifetime. Therapy too, like, therapy for me, I'm in therapy, I'm in couples therapy, I don't, you don't go and then just stop going. You have to consistently show up for your wellness. And voting is how we show up for our political wellness, for, really, for the wellness of our community.

• 50:27Keke Palmer?

  And our democracy.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 50:28Keke Palmer?

  You know, our ability to be able to have change happen. But it's, it, it, when you've pointed this out, it just makes me think about, like, again, with all our individual lives, like, we're always, you know, what is our level of discipline? And how's that then applied to our democracy? You know, 'cause if you don't have that discipline in your home, you, as a person, then yeah, maybe you aren't thinking about showing up in this way. You know, so the concept of showing up for yourself, and also showing up for your community being totally aligned, is a really big key.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  You know what else? Is I think we have an unfortunate culture of hero worship, where we think if we vote for this one president, they're gonna fix everything. And the reality is, I don't vote for a candidate because I think they're perfect.

• 51:05Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 51:06Speaker 03

  I, and I don't vote for a candidate because I'm in love with them.

• 51:09Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 51:09Speaker 03

  I vote for a candidate because I love myself and my community. And I wanna vote for the people who have my best interests at heart. So there's nobody who's gonna come along in an election who's gonna be perfect. Kamala Harris may say something that you don't agree with. She may not have your back on every single issue. I mean, I think she has your back on a lot of issues, but she may not.

• 51:27Keke Palmer?

  But you're just talking about the system at large. Even working in the system, period. Even just Democrat, Republican, just that whole gag.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  But you have to love yourself enough to know, like, who is the candidate who's thinking about my pocketbook? Who is the candidate who's thinking about my liberty and freedom? Who is the candidate who believes that I have the right to make decisions that I wanna make about my own body?

• 51:47Keke Palmer?

  That align with my ethics.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. Who's the candidate who's gonna protect my parents' social security, my kids' education, this environment? Like, who is, is for the things that I'm for? It's not about them being perfect, but do they, do they support the things that I care about?

• 52:02Keke Palmer?

  Everything you're saying is so true and so important, because I think we are in this thing where it's like, the establishment, done. The system, get it out of here. It's like, guys, that's not, it's not happening. I hate to say it, but it is what it is, and it can change. It can evolve over time.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  But guess how it evolves and changes? By you stepping in and participating in the process, and letting people know what you want it to be. That's how it changes.

• 52:23Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 52:24Speaker 03

  By sitting, it's like, you know, you think about kids, I think about like, you know, my, my son's is going into second grade. Like kindergarten kids, first grade kids, when they don't like the game, they walk away from the game.

• 52:34Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  That's what children do.

• 52:37Keke Palmer?

  Woo.

• 52:37Speaker 03

  If you don't like the game of democracy, if you don't like how power is being wielded in this country, don't step out the game. Step into the game.

• 52:45Keke Palmer?

  Let's go.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  Vote, participate, contribute.

• 52:48Keke Palmer?

  Because, no, what you're saying is facts, and I, and I hate that because the truth is, is that it is a game.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 52:55Keke Palmer?

  There's a game being played, it's called life.

• 52:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 52:57Keke Palmer?

  And this attitude of, oh, you know, I, I can't do it, and hey, uh, it's lazy. That's what it is.

• 53:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:06Keke Palmer?

  I hate to say it, but that's what it gives.

• 53:08Speaker 03

  And it's giving up your power.

• 53:10Keke Palmer?

  I can't do it.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  Like again, I said to you, you pay their, their salary anyway, every time you pay your taxes, you pay their salary, so boss up. Don't let people work for you but not work for you. Make sure that they're working for you since you're paying them. And I feel like, you know, it's funny, I, I really, I want people to know that you have the capacity to transform the things you don't like.

• 53:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  But only if you show up.

• 53:36Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 53:36Speaker 03

  You have to show up.

• 53:38Keke Palmer?

  Ah, I love that, it's so, it's so, so true. And I think it's great what you're doing and any one of us that use our platform to try and inspire and empower each other to engage in that way again because it, it is weird, difficult times, and I think it's always been.

• 53:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:54Keke Palmer?

  But I feel like even more than now. And all we can do is try to encourage one another to feel excited again, to feel connected again.

• 54:00Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 54:01Keke Palmer?

  So, I mean, even that to me is, is more than enough.

• 54:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:04Keke Palmer?

  Um, you've worked with some amazing people.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  I have, I've been so lucky.

• 54:07Keke Palmer?

  Tyler Perry, Shonda Rhimes, the list goes on. Um, what would you say is the connective tissue of these kind of people in our industry?

• 54:18Speaker 03

  Like, all the people I've worked with?

• 54:19Keke Palmer?

  Not just being black, not just black, because I know I named two black folk. What I really mean is just, people that have, like, when I think about Tyler, when I think about Shonda, and I can name a million other people.

• 54:27Speaker 03

  What is it that makes them successful?

• 54:29Keke Palmer?

  Yes. That you've seen working with them? Because you worked with Shonda also at a point where, she was obviously very successful, but you saw during a scandal where she went...

• 54:39Speaker 03

  She's become a titan.

• 54:40Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 54:41Speaker 03

  Yes, and he is too. I mean, Tyler Perry, when you go to those studios in Atlanta and you see all those sound stages...

• 54:47Keke Palmer?

  They've kind of done things that we thought were impossible.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  Yes, they have, they have, and I think that's it. I think it's the belief in themselves. Those two people in particular, but when I think about other people of excellence that I've worked with, they are people that have been willing to bet on themselves, because they believe in themselves.

• 55:04Keke Palmer?

  I couldn't agree more with that.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  And take a risk, right? I think the ability to take a risk and say, "I believe in myself, I'm gonna bet on the possibility of my dreams." That's been really inspiring for me to be around people like that.

• 55:19Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  And they work hard. I think that also, when you talk about this, like, culture of instant gratification that we live in, those two people, they are people who work hard. They put in the hours. They don't expect things to come easily. They're dedicated.

• 55:35Keke Palmer?

  That's right. I couldn't agree more. Okay, well, let's get into a game.

• 55:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 55:39Keke Palmer?

  Because I really could talk to you all day. You're so much fun.

• 55:41Speaker 03

  It's the same!

• 55:42Keke Palmer?

  You are really so much fun. Okay, so, we always play a game at the end of the show with a guest. This one is called Virgo or Aquarius, okay? In case you didn't know, I'm a Virgo. We're very desirable. And of course, you're an Aquarius, which I am obsessed with.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  We are crazy.

• 55:56Keke Palmer?

  Crazy and amazing. And so, I want to ask you a couple of different names, and you're gonna guess if they're a Virgo or an Aquarius, and then give me a brief description as to why you think they're that sign. It sound good?

• 56:06Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 56:07Keke Palmer?

  Okay. Zendaya.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Zendaya's gotta be a Virgo.

• 56:11Keke Palmer?

  Okay, why?

• 56:12Speaker 03

  Because Virgos are so elegant. Like Aquarians are, we're like wild children. And Virgos are perfectionist.

• 56:25Keke Palmer?

  Keep going.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  They, mhm, mhm. They are really, they are oriented toward beauty in a way that is singular.

• 56:34Keke Palmer?

  Ooh, well, you are right.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Yes, just look at her, look at her. That you know, she's Zendaya's sister.

• 56:42Keke Palmer?

  Okay, Oprah?

• 56:43Speaker 03

  Oprah's an Aquarius.

• 56:44Keke Palmer?

  Down, you already know. Now, tell me how you, do you always know this?

• 56:47Speaker 03

  I already know. Because I know her and she is. So, one of the qualities of an Aquarius, that like Oprah is quintessential. Alicia Keys is quintessential, she might be in here. Quintessential Aquarian. They love, they're humanitarian.

• 57:01Keke Palmer?

  That's true.

• 57:02Speaker 03

  Aquarians want to heal the world. And so when we get a little bit of success, we're like, how can I, like, how can I create an impact where everybody benefits from this goodness? And that's so Oprah.

• 57:17Keke Palmer?

  I also feel like you guys have this, like, I think sometimes people, obviously, these are famous people. But I don't think people often immediately realize just how brilliant also Aquariuses are. Very smart people, like seriously, all the people, you, Oprah, the list goes on. Very just smart. Okay, next one, Michael Jackson.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Oh, I would say Virgo, right?

• 57:39Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:41Keke Palmer?

  The precision with the move.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  Precision, precision.

• 57:44Keke Palmer?

  Michael didn't play.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  Yes, there's no, yes, yes. It's to every, every note, every, like, I think about Michael in the studio. Like, I know every single sound was, he was so, yes, hyper-aware.

• 57:57Keke Palmer?

  Even the beats with the

• 57:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, all of that, all of that. That's, and Aquarians, we're too in the clouds to be that.

• 58:04Keke Palmer?

  Okay, Christian Bale.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  I have no clue on this one. Because I think of Christian Bale as his characters. I don't know that much about, I mean, he's an Aquarius.

• 58:15Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean, a mechanic psycho? Only an Aquarian will read that script and say, I'm doing that role.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  That's true, we go outside the box.

• 58:22Keke Palmer?

  And nail it every time.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  Yes, if we do, like, I always say, when people say, what kind of work are you drawn to? I'm like, whatever I didn't do last. I wanna, I'm always wanting to change it up.

• 58:32Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I love Christian Bale.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:33Keke Palmer?

  Um, Idris Elba.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go Virgo.

• 58:39Keke Palmer?

  Ooh.

• 58:39Speaker 03

  Is that true?

• 58:40Keke Palmer?

  That's true.

• 58:41Speaker 03

  Ah, so good. Again, I think it's that dedication. Like Aquarians, we like to do 100 different things. And Idris does like three or four things really, really, really, really well.

• 58:52Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  They don't, Virgos don't, you don't spread yourselves too thin.

• 58:55Keke Palmer?

  If we're gonna take it on our plate, we gotta be real good with it.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:58Keke Palmer?

  You know, because we just don't wanna fall short.

• 58:59Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 58:59Keke Palmer?

  We're too spooked. Um, Keanu Reeves?

• 59:03Speaker 03

  Is he an Aquarius? Is he a Virgo?

• 59:05Keke Palmer?

  He's a Virgo. You know, it's so funny.

• 59:06Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 59:07Keke Palmer?

  Because he could totally be.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  He could, right? Because he's such a like, the world is good. He's like, he's got that like idealistic thing that Aquarians have.

• 59:14Keke Palmer?

  I worked with him recently, and this is when I knew that he was a Virgo to the T.

• 59:17Speaker 03

  Okay, tell me.

• 59:18Keke Palmer?

  Because, so, we're doing this movie, it's me, him, and Aziz Ansari.

• 59:22Speaker 03

  So fun.

• 59:23Keke Palmer?

  And it was so much fun.

• 59:24Speaker 03

  My God, what a group.

• 59:25Keke Palmer?

  And so, I see Keanu in the corner, and he's like, yes, I think I should. Yes, I think I should. Yes, I think I should. Yes, I think I should. Like, over and over.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  Every detail.

• 59:37Keke Palmer?

  Try, and then the director said, action, which was Aziz, and he's like, yes, I think I should.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  Ah, he had all the tiny nuances, every inflection in every syllable.

• 59:48Keke Palmer?

  When I tell you I was gagged before my eyes to watch that process?

• 59:51Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 59:52Keke Palmer?

  And everyone was like, yes, I think I should, yes, I think I should, yes, I think I should.

• 59:55Speaker 03

  Yes, I think I should. Yes, I love that.

• 59:59Keke Palmer?

  It was amazing.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 1:00:01Keke Palmer?

  Okay, last one, and this is a friend of yours, so I'm sure you know.

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:00:04Keke Palmer?

  What their sign is. Chris Rock.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  Chris Rock's an Aquarius.

• 1:00:07Keke Palmer?

  Yes, so.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  His birthday's a week after mine.

• 1:00:11Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. The most Aquarius thing that he did was when Will was walking up there, and he said, uh-oh, Richard?

• 1:00:18Keke Palmer?

  Why did he call him? Nobody ever thinks about the part. Why did he call that man Richard? That was the funniest shit in the world to me. He walking up there all serious, Chris, I'm gonna say, uh-oh, Richard?

• 1:00:31Speaker 03

  We are so outside the box.

• 1:00:32Keke Palmer?

  So random and hilarious.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  So outside the box. We are.

• 1:00:36Keke Palmer?

  Well, Carrie, you are so outside the box. Brilliant, beautiful, talented.

• 1:00:41Speaker 03

  Coming from you, that means so much. Because you are all those things plus.

• 1:00:46Keke Palmer?

  Carrie's style. And extraordinarily stylish.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 1:00:49Keke Palmer?

  Let's just be real.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  She's got these gorgeous Dolce slides down here that I'm trying to go home with. So, style, style is all over this room.

• 1:00:57Keke Palmer?

  I'm so happy that you came to the show.

• 1:00:59Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:01:00Keke Palmer?

  Unprisoned, thicker than water, all the amazing things we have coming out. Be tuned in, y'all.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:01:10Keke Palmer?

  Okay, Carrie is truly the GOAT. And I knew it from the moment that I saw "Save the Last Dance." What an incredible human being. I mean, for someone who's done it all and has nothing to prove to anybody, she's still willing to get uncomfortable and tackle new things. Respect. Note to self, be like Carrie. I can't wait to come back next week and do it all over again because, listeners, you know it's your girl.

• 1:01:41Keke Palmer?

  Enjoy "Baby, This is Keke Palmer" on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now, on YouTube, where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to "Baby, This is Keke Palmer" early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

• 1:02:05Keke Palmer?

  "Baby, This is Keke Palmer" is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Our producer is Tristan McNeil. Senior producers are Lizzie Basset and Candace Manriquez-Britt. Our executive producers are Date Easton and Marshall Louie.