Pod Insights Baby, this is Keke Palmer The One Might Be a 4, Not a 10 with Dating Expert Matthew Hussey About this episode Relationships can feel so confusing these days that it’s like—what even IS love anymore? Is “the one” a real thing, or are we setting ourselves up for heartbreak by chasing a myth? And why do we keep falling for the wrong people? Today, renowned dating expert Matthew Hussey is here to untangle these mysteries and more. Get ready for some tough-love truths about desire, paired with tender insights on vulnerability and communication. Plus, Matthew dives into the love philosophies of Steve Harvey, Esther Perel, and Jacques Lacan in a classic game of “Here For It or Nah.” Spoiler: You’re about to rethink everything you thought you knew about love!
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Keke Palmer? This episode is sponsored by the good old folks over at Airbnb. This holiday season, be sure to check out the most loved homes on Airbnb by taking a look at guest favorites. Take it from me, some trips are better in an Airbnb. Now, let's start the show.
0:20 Keke Palmer? Hey, it's your girl, Keke Palmer. And today, we are diving deep into the world of love and dating with someone who knows all the tips and tricks to help you level up your relationship game. He's a dating expert, confidence coach, and author, and someone who's been guiding people through the crazy maze of modern romance. Matthew Hussey is joining me today to break down whether the idea of the one is really all it's cracked up to be. Is it helpful, or are we setting ourselves up for failure? You're about to find out, so get comfy, because baby, this is Keke Palmer.
1:21 Keke Palmer? I am so excited to have this man here today. We go back, all the way back to GMA. Yes, he's a renowned dating expert, a confidence coach, bestselling author, and he's known for giving real, actionable advice that helps people navigate the ups and downs of modern relationships. His latest book is called Love Life: How to Raise Your Standards, Find Your Person, and Live Happily, No Matter What. It's Matthew Hussey. Welcome to the show.
1:45 Speaker 01 Hello, Kiki.
1:46 Keke Palmer? It's good to see you again. You're looking as good as ever.
1:48 Speaker 01 You too.
1:49 Keke Palmer? Thank you, thank you.
1:50 Speaker 01 It's so much fun to be here.
1:51 Keke Palmer? Oh, my gosh.
1:51 Speaker 01 It's been years.
1:52 Keke Palmer? I know, but you know, just to see how you've continued to grow is amazing. I'm so happy to talk to you today because there's one thing anybody knows I love talking about is relationships. I don't know who doesn't. But let's start with this book. How do you feel about it being in the world? And what inspired you to write it this time?
2:08 Speaker 01 Oh, man. I think what I've dealt with over seventeen years of working with people in their love lives, because for anyone who doesn't know me, to kind of almost frame up, I've been helping people find love for seventeen years. And it has been a really long journey and a lot has changed in my mindset in terms of what I think are the most important things to cover when I'm helping people on that journey. I started out with this idea that the number one, this was way back when I started and I was naive and I thought, you know, the biggest problem is that we just don't have enough options. If we create more options for ourselves, we'll make better choices, right? I was like.
2:50 Keke Palmer? What kind of options would you say?
2:52 Speaker 01 My hypothesis was someone chooses a person who treats them badly because they haven't got better options at the time. And I was wrong. That's not true. You know, what I ended up coming up with was a whole bunch of ways that people could go out and create more choice in their love lives. Because I thought if they have more choice, they're going to make better choices.
3:14 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
3:15 Speaker 01 But that's not true, because there are deeper things guiding our choices. And we often gravitate towards the pain we know.
3:22 Keke Palmer? That's right.
3:23 Speaker 01 We gravitate towards things that are familiar to us, or what we think we're worthy of.
3:28 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
3:29 Speaker 01 And, you know, sometimes better is deeply uncomfortable to us. So then I started to evolve my thinking and say, there's something else going on here, and I need to get to the bottom of that. And so a lot of this book was around the kinds of things that we struggle with when we're looking for love. How hard it is to be single for so many of us, how lonely that path can be, how it makes us make bad decisions. Because when we're in a panic that we haven't met someone yet, especially when we're on a timeline where we want to get married or have a family, especially biologically.
4:06 Keke Palmer? There's women, yeah, too, yeah.
4:07 Speaker 01 You want your own family that's biologically yours, that's a whole other thing that produces a level of anxiety and panic that then makes people rush into bad decisions that have long term effects.
4:19 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
4:19 Speaker 01 So, and I don't just deal with people in that age group. I deal with people who are fifties plus dating as well, and sixties plus and seventies plus. So like. I'm dealing with all ends of the spectrum and some of the issues are the same, some are different, but what I want for people, whether they're single or in a relationship, is to find peace, to find happiness. And I think it's okay to have the goal to find love. And this book is about helping people with their goal to find love, but also to find their happiness along the way so that they're not deferring it to the time where they find love.
4:51 Keke Palmer? I love what you said about that because I think when people hear love life, it can be really intimidating or come with the expectations of romantic love coming in and saving the day for us. I think that's been the idea is like in life, in order to find that person, that one, which you speak a lot about. You know, you talk about the idea of the one and how you don't really like it. Can you explain why?
5:13 Speaker 01 Well, I think it's this idea that someone's going to come along and I'm going to feel everything I've ever wanted to feel. They are going to rescue me. They come kind of pre-made in the way that I need. And I think in many ways, the one is almost an insult to long-term relationships.
5:31 Keke Palmer? I think so too.
5:31 Speaker 01 Because if you, if you take two people who have been married for 30 years, they'll tell you their war wounds. They'll tell you the hard things they've got through together. They'll tell you the ways that their relationship has been built over time. And it's the way that it's been built that has made that relationship really special, not how they arrived in each other's lives on day one. You know, we, we need certain things in the beginning. We need a degree of chemistry.
5:57 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
5:57 Speaker 01 I don't think we need the most chemistry we've ever felt in our entire lives. Like that's a, that's a trap, right? So I always say, don't comparison.
6:04 Keke Palmer? That's tied to the options thing.
6:06 Speaker 01 Well, it's like.
6:06 Keke Palmer? Cause then it's like you're forever searching in a million options where it can keep getting better or, or worse.
6:11 Speaker 01 Right. You're trying to optimize and optimizing is very dangerous when it comes to human beings because you can't just say, I want a little less of that and a little more of that without getting a whole new bag of things with that person. Everyone's coming with new challenges. So, you know, in the beginning, I always say, don't comparison shop for chemistry. You know, like, don't compare the chemistry you feel with this person in front of you, who might be very calming in some ways and might feel like home in the best possible way. And you can be more of yourself around them, but you don't feel the extreme of chemistry that you felt with that person you had a three month fling with three years ago.
6:49 Keke Palmer? Well, let's talk, yeah, because a three month fling was just anxiety. Let's talk about the delineating factors of what that looks like, because I think we hear a lot of conflicting things where it's like, love should be easy, it shouldn't be hard, but it's like, anything you want comes with challenges. How do you actually know what it is when you are with that person that, yeah, maybe the chemistry is great, maybe it's not most extreme, but you know, you like them, but they got some problems and you gotta work with them and how many years do I put to that and when my bio, like, so how do you distinguish when a relationship is an opportunity to grow with someone or something that really just may not be right for you? Because I think that's really hard.
7:24 Speaker 01 That's a great question. There has to be certain raw materials there that you can work with, right? And you always have to be looking at your time because no one cares about your time the way you do. Like, no one else is responsible for your time. And we often put our time in someone else's hands and we say, if they're not quite ready for a relationship, I'll just give them more time, which in some cases might be okay to do. But if year after year, you're saying that, hoping that this person's got your back and one day this investment you're putting into them is going to come good, then very far from what you need in terms of how much they respect you, how much they show up for you, how much they invest in you.
8:04 Speaker 01 But you're thinking that the more you invest in them, the more one day, that's all gonna pay off. That's just not true. People are often horrified to learn that years and years of bending over backwards to please someone didn't make any difference with how cold or callous that person could be at the very end of it all. And that's a really stunning realization to have that. So you always have to be protecting yourself and going, is what I'm getting right now, is it really enough?
8:38 Speaker 01 To warrant my time and energy right now. Like, is this truly enough? It's almost like saying, what's interesting to me?
8:47 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
8:48 Speaker 01 And it can't be that what's interesting to me is that they're charismatic and tall and successful and sexy. That's not, that can't be the thing.
8:58 Keke Palmer? Mmm, I'm kidding.
8:59 Speaker 01 No, I mean, I'm not saying it's not interesting.
9:02 Keke Palmer? Totally kidding.
9:03 Speaker 01 I get it.
9:03 Keke Palmer? But it wears off. All that stuff wears, I mean, at some point, we're gonna not be that cute.
9:07 Speaker 01 Also, none of those things have anything to do with character.
9:10 Keke Palmer? Yeah, you're right.
9:12 Speaker 01 Like, where's, there's no character there. The number of times that I will be in one of my events and someone will stand up and they'll say, I can't get over this person. I'll say, what is it about them? Like, why did you, you fell in love with this person? What happened? Who are they?
9:27 Keke Palmer? I'm so scared of what they're gonna say.
9:28 Speaker 01 Everything I just said, they'll be like, they're, you know, they're super charismatic and they, they do really well in life. And, you know, I find them very attractive and they're talking about all of these things. As if they're saying, they're so kind, they're, they have great values, they show up for me.
9:50 Keke Palmer? So I'll be honest, I'll, I'll go, jump into the body of these people. What happens is, it seems, when we throw away these ideas of the one, when we throw away these ideas and expectations of what we think a relationship is, we're left with something completely unsexy or romantic. I think that's what people are hearing in their mind. So when we leave all of this kind of quote unquote superficial stuff behind, how do we find the excitement, the romance and the thing that makes you feel, I guess, passionate?
10:18 Speaker 01 I'm not against excitement or romance, but here's the thing. You, what I notice is that people are very selective about where they have standards. So they have very high sta, when people say to me, I have really high standards, that's my problem. I'm like, really? Let's talk about it.
10:35 Keke Palmer? You're about to preach, I can already feel it.
10:37 Speaker 01 Well, where are your high standards? You have a high standard for how tall someone is. You have a high standard for what their body looks like. You have a high standard for how like much edge they have. You have high standards there, but you have absolutely no standards when it comes to how this person treats you.
10:55 Keke Palmer? I've seen it a lot of times. What is that?
10:57 Speaker 01 Firstly, I think that we're going based on ego into our love life. So it's like, this person looks good to my friends. I feel good posting with this person on Instagram.
11:07 Keke Palmer? Well, now we're talking about how a relationship leads to what we feel our external validation is. So then our partner is simply just a prop, an extension of how we see ourselves as opposed to something we love.
11:17 Speaker 01 How many men never got to date the cheerleader at high school? And then the rest of their life, they spend trying to date cheerleaders of some form or another, like that whoever they think represents that archetype.
11:28 Keke Palmer? And it's gonna fill that place, but that's exactly what you're saying this is about, is healing that aspect so that you can actually find what it is you really want.
11:35 Speaker 01 What you really want. And by the way, also realize that chemistry can be found in in many more forms than the very specific way that we think we find chemistry, which as you very astutely pointed out, is often just anxiety. Sometimes it's just getting excited because someone isn't texting us back. Be very careful. If the moment someone starts to pull away, you get more attracted. You should start suspecting yourself.
12:01 Keke Palmer? Yeah, it's that idea that you were saying that people sometimes have in a relationship where it's this constant game or challenge that at the end, she's gonna love me. Like they literally turned into that scene in Dreamgirls where it's like the whole relationship has been, I'm gonna get this person to love me. And it's like, what does that say about you? And how do you need to learn from that?
12:21 Speaker 01 And by the way, if that person does turn around and meet you, you might find yourself strangely turned off. You think that all your dreams would come true if they would just show up the way you want them to show up. But a lot of the Groucho Marx once said, I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member, right? Now, a lot of people go into their love lives like that.
12:41 Keke Palmer? They do.
12:42 Speaker 01 It's like, if you don't want me as a member of your club, like the way they approach people who want them is if you want me, there's something wrong with you. But you don't want me, you might be on to something.
12:59 Keke Palmer? Look, we all know that holidays can be stressful. But do they have to be? We all know that some trips are better in an Airbnb, and that includes holiday travel. Picture this: Instead of cramming into grandma's guest room or fighting over the pullout couch, you could be chilling in a cozy cabin with the fireplace or living it up in a spacious house with room for everyone, all within driving distance. So, for those moments when you're tired of being reminded of all the pressures of the holidays, check out nearby guest favorites on Airbnb. Find a cute little cottage on the outskirts of town, cook up a family feast in a fully-equipped kitchen, play board games in the living room, or have a movie marathon with the babies. And the best part? You get to make memories in a place that feels like home,
13:42 Keke Palmer? but with all the excitement of being somewhere new. Remember my Joshua Tree moment I was telling y'all about a couple months ago? I'm trying to tell y'all. Airbnb's got you covered for those local getaways that feel like a world away. It truly felt like I was on another planet, but it was only a couple hours away. So this holiday season, why not switch it up with Airbnb? You deserve a relaxing holiday season.
14:06 Keke Palmer? 'Tis the season for year-end wrap-ups, and baby, Audible is coming in hot with this year's Best in Audio Entertainment. Audible's Best of 2024 picks are here, bringing you the year's top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals across all your favorite genres. From memoirs and sci-fi to mysteries and thrillers, romance and well-being to fiction. Audible's carefully curated list is the perfect way to experience 2024's finest audio offerings. You can dive into a star-studded production of George Orwell's 1984, putting a whole new spin on this grade-school classic with cutting-edge sound effects and bold, dramatic choices. For those who like to indulge in romance, there's Emily Henry's Funny Story. Or for those looking to tap into the strength
14:52 Keke Palmer? of the American spirit, you can listen to Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson's memoir, Lovely One. And for my fiction fans, y'all can immerse yourself in a captivating fiction such as The Woman by Kristin Hannah or Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. This holiday season gives yourself the gift of imagination. With Audible, there's more to imagine when you listen. Discover all the year's best waiting for you at audible.com/bestoftheyear.
15:24 Keke Palmer? I literally was talking about this with someone the other day about something completely different, but just how people can exist in this space where the moment that whatever it is gets close to them, embracing them, accepting them, the more they start questioning that.
15:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:36 Keke Palmer? What does that say to us and how do we get through something like that when it comes to actually embracing all kinds of love in our life?
15:43 Speaker 01 I think we've grown up with, you know, models of love that are familiar. For some of us, it's being abandoned. For some of us, it's love is, I have to fight for love. For some of us, it's I have to prove myself for love or I have to, you know, do everything to please people in order to get love. So then you get someone who goes out there and tries relentlessly. They get gifts for someone and they show up for them and they bring them lunch to their work, even though they've only been dating for a week. And they, you know, they're like, you know, because that's their weapon they know how to use. I know how to shower you with love and praise and be there for you.
16:23 Speaker 01 And it's what they're familiar with, but to, to say, maybe I don't need to do that. Maybe I can, maybe I'm worthy of love without having to do all of these things for someone all the time. That's deeply uncomfortable for people.
16:39 Keke Palmer? And I think it really includes boundaries because I found with myself, my answer to that was service. Like I learned in my family, especially with a Christian background and my father, he's a deacon and he would do so much service. The way he showed me love was, was through sacrifice, through loving, through being of service to people. And it took a long time for me to understand that I could be of service while also maintaining personal boundaries, that it didn't mean self sacrificial. It meant sacrifices that were in actuality, oh, comfortable for me, that felt acceptable for me.
17:11 Speaker 01 And by the way, romantic relationships don't fall into the category of philanthropy.
17:15 Keke Palmer? Now let's go into that.
17:17 Speaker 01 Love isn't charity, you know, in a romantic context?
17:20 Keke Palmer? Yeah, interesting.
17:21 Speaker 01 Love isn't charity. Love is highly conditional.
17:25 Keke Palmer? Now, I love that you said that because in my now thirty one years, I literally said this in my book. I actually believe that love should be conditional. And that is something that I think a lot of times people don't want to talk about, but it's like, I already got God that loves us unconditionally. When it comes to this relationship, I do have conditions. It doesn't mean you have to be a totally different person, but if we're gonna be here, let's meet each other halfway.
17:46 Speaker 01 If you have an organization that you give to and every week you show up and you volunteer, you're not expecting anything from that situation. You are just going to give, you're just going to be in service. You cannot take that mindset to your love life. You can't just invest in someone based on how much you like them. You have to invest in someone based on how much they invest in you.
18:07 Keke Palmer? Come on.
18:09 Speaker 01 That's the difference. It it's a very, very dangerous thing to to do the opposite. And so that doesn't mean, like, I think people often think that having standards and boundaries means going in almost with a kind of aggression.
18:21 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
18:22 Speaker 01 Like, you know, I have to go in and I have to put my foot down and say, well, you have to do this and you have to do that. And I'm not gonna go there with you unless you. It's not that. It's be very honest with yourself about what's worth your time, about what's worth your energy.
18:38 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
18:38 Speaker 01 If you date someone, let's say you meet someone and they're long distance.
18:42 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
18:43 Speaker 01 And then two weeks from now, they're asking you to fly to meet them. No.
18:48 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
18:49 Speaker 01 This is essentially a stranger to you.
18:52 Keke Palmer? Yeah, take some time with it.
18:53 Speaker 01 Take some time, get to know them. And by the way, let's meet in the middle somewhere. Like, this, my own wife, Audrey, who's sat over there, we went out when we were dating early on. I remember I had just come out of a show in London and the last couple of times we met, we had met on my side of town. I was I was coming back from L A visiting at the time, but where I was staying, we'd met near me.
19:18 Speaker 01 And I had just come out of this show and I was in London and I said, you know, we were gonna have a drink. And she said, why don't you come over to this bar or whatever? It was near where she lived. And I said, well, I'm over here. Do you wanna come and do something over here and whatever? And she was like, let's do something over here.
19:33 Keke Palmer? You're coming here, love. I'm not moving.
19:36 Speaker 01 I, yeah, she was like, we've done that side of town. Come over and see my side of town. And I was like, oh, but, you know, I think I actually had a little resistance. I was like, but, and she was like, we can do something another night. It's fine.
19:48 Keke Palmer? I love her.
19:48 Speaker 01 But what, from her point of view, it was like, we can do something another night, but what I'm not doing.
19:53 Keke Palmer? Well, that sounds reciprocal. She just wanted reciproc- okay, we went to your side, now let's go to my side. Then we go to your side, then we go, it's fair.
19:59 Speaker 01 But you have to, you can't, those little moments are little moments where you choose yourself. They're little moments where you advocate for yourself. They're little moments where you say, are you actually willing to meet me there? Because if someone isn't, and again, you're never doing it with an aggression or in a, like.
20:19 Keke Palmer? Or trying to prove something. You're just being true to you.
20:21 Speaker 01 You're just saying, I'm trying to assess whether you have any skin in the game.
20:27 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
20:28 Speaker 01 Because if I'm always making this really easy for you, I actually never have any way of knowing whether you have any skin in the game.
20:36 Keke Palmer? It's so true. Speaking of having a personal relationship and having a wife, when you talk about your love life story, like I was mentioning, what I learned from myself through my relationships and my relationship with myself, is service, there has, was something that I had to look at differently as it became my relationship to service and love. What was that for you that you learned? Um, in your close relationships that you had to look at differently in your relationship to love?
20:59 Speaker 01 That's such a good question. I had to learn to really let go, I think. I, I thought I was good at being vulnerable and I probably wasn't very good at being vulnerable in my past. I was quite good at being vulnerable about things I wanted to be vulnerable about, like, you know, just the things that I felt safe to be vulnerable about, but like, as soon as it was something that actually made me feel a bit threatened, like maybe I felt jealous about something.
21:26 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
21:26 Speaker 01 I wouldn't speak about, I'd just get passive aggressive. It took me a minute to realize I was actually safe in the relationship to, to be.
21:37 Speaker 01 Fully myself. I mean, I can remember a situation many years ago where I was honest about something and I didn't even think it was a good idea at the time, but at the time, something had made me insecure.
21:51 Keke Palmer? Mm hmm.
21:52 Speaker 01 And in my mind, I could feel this battle of, don't say it, don't say it, don't say it, because this is going to make you seem weak and pathetic and unattractive and don't say it. And then I said it.
22:02 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
22:03 Speaker 01 And this person said, my worst nightmare, I find that really unattractive.
22:08 Keke Palmer? No, I'm throwing up. I'm literally throwing up. I hate that when that happens.
22:13 Speaker 01 And it really like, it.
22:14 Keke Palmer? Oh, no.
22:15 Speaker 01 And here was the worst part is I went away from that.
22:18 Keke Palmer? Oh.
22:18 Speaker 01 I thought I was the idiot for saying it.
22:21 Keke Palmer? No.
22:21 Speaker 01 Like, I was like, I hated myself for, I was like, you moron, why did you, you knew, you knew. And the truth is, of course, I know this now, I was being vulnerable with someone who, who wasn't.
22:33 Keke Palmer? That was the problem.
22:34 Speaker 01 They weren't able to handle that.
22:36 Keke Palmer? Yeah, because even if it was unattractive, you say it in your brain and you be a kind person and create a safe space for someone.
22:41 Speaker 01 Hundred percent. The right person does create that space for you and the right person, you communicate things and things just get better.
22:49 Keke Palmer? How did you get back from that, though? Because I think even just that one little story, I think is actually really, like, that's kind of like everybody's, what do they call it? Villain origin story? Like, I opened up to someone and they literally ripped me to shreds.
23:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
23:02 Keke Palmer? How do I get back again? Like, was it just the, like, opening yourself up to your relationship with your wife, Audrey, that allowed you to start rebuilding? Was it just having a safe space?
23:11 Speaker 01 In truth, she had to pull a few things out of me.
23:15 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
23:16 Speaker 01 Like, because I would get kind of cold and then she'd notice I was cold. And then she'd be like, why are you being cold? And I was like, I'm not being cold.
23:24 Speaker 01 And she'd be like, so, her favorite line was just like, so I'm completely insane.
23:30 Keke Palmer? Right.
23:30 Speaker 01 Like, I am just crazy.
23:32 Keke Palmer? Do not gaslight.
23:33 Speaker 01 Like, just tell me that. Like, am I completely crazy? There's nothing at all that's off about your energy. Nothing. And then when she said that, I was like, I couldn't say that. And then I like slightly say something and I felt like throwing.
23:47 Speaker 01 Up like Pete Holmes once described crying as like vomiting. You feel better afterwards, but you never want to do it before you do it.
23:56 Keke Palmer? No.
23:56 Speaker 01 I felt like that about saying things that made me feel like I could be perceived to be weak or vulnerable.
24:03 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
24:04 Speaker 01 But what happened was I would say something and it would go well. She would say to me like, I just want to let you know, like it never. I never see you. You're still the same attractive man to me. I just love knowing you better.
24:17 Keke Palmer? Yes.
24:18 Speaker 01 And that was very healing for me to be able to like, realize, oh, I'm actually accepted, not as the version of myself that, you know, I come to the table as in my strong moments, which is not not me, but it's certainly not the only me.
24:32 Keke Palmer? Okay, yeah, exactly. I'm so curious for her what allowed her to keep pushing through those walls because I think so many of us, men and women, we see that in the person that we're dating and we're wondering how to get through to them. And again, when we should keep on and when the time may be never, you know, because you may have never ended up becoming this person that said, I'll let you in.
24:50 Speaker 01 And I can tell you, she has such high standards that if that was the case, she would have been out.
24:55 Keke Palmer? Okay.
24:56 Speaker 01 There's no way she would not have hung around for a second. She was very patient with me in communicating that she loved getting to know me and I don't need to be afraid to talk to her about things. Or if something's on my mind, I can always share it with her. She's very proactive about creating that space for me, but my wife has the best boundaries in the world.
25:16 Keke Palmer? I was about to say, that's the power of love and the power of boundaries.
25:19 Speaker 01 You have to have both.
25:20 Keke Palmer? Call somebody to be the best that they can be when you love them by showing them I have boundaries. So that's.
25:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, you can't do, you cannot do one without the other. If you're just being compassionate to someone with no boundaries for yourself. You're in trouble and and it makes you a target, by the way, for the worst kinds of people. Like if you take a narcissistic relationship. The narcissist will feed on your endless capacity for empathy until the end of time. You know, that's like where an endless capacity for compassion and empathy meets a relentless capacity to take.
25:59 Speaker 01 That is a really dangerous combination and people have experienced that with, you know, there'll be people listening to this show right now who have experienced that with a parent. There'll be people who have experienced that with a sibling. There'll be people who have experienced that in a marriage. That there are some people who have an endless capacity to take and if you have an endless capacity to give.
26:18 Keke Palmer? Yes.
26:19 Speaker 01 That person can ruin your life.
26:20 Keke Palmer? I want to ask you about social media because everyone feels like they know everything about everyone these days. They can find out everything about the person that they're dating online by one click on their social media page. So how in dating do we deal with that? Do you think people should go check the page early on? Should they refrain from seeing and looking at those things? How does our perception play into our dating life and how much should we allow it to?
26:46 Speaker 01 I think you have to, for your own safety, check someone out to see like, do they have a presence at least? You know, it doesn't, I'm not talking about followers.
26:57 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
26:57 Speaker 01 I'm just talking about like, are they somebody in the world? That, you know, I can go, well, they are who they say they are.
27:05 Keke Palmer? Hmm.
27:06 Speaker 01 They live where they say they live. They, you know.
27:08 Keke Palmer? So you think it's valuable. I love the show, how they showing up on their pages and how they showing up in their real life. I didn't even really think of that.
27:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, I think.
27:15 Keke Palmer? Because sometimes people do.
27:16 Speaker 01 Well, there's a couple of things. So firstly, yes, exactly that. Like, is that, is, am I seeing a congruency between their name and where they say they live and this and that? And does this look like a profile of someone who is who they say they are at the most basic level? I think that's important. I also think that if you go to someone's profile page on Instagram, for example, and every picture is them standing next to a jet of, or a Ferrari or like, you know, watches. And it's like, if you're someone who couldn't give a damn about material possessions, would this person is showing you what their values are right now?
27:57 Speaker 01 They're either showing you what their values are or they're showing you what they're most insecure about and how they validate themselves. And you have to look at that and go, is this my kind of person?
28:08 Keke Palmer? And do I agree with how they want to show up in the world?
28:10 Speaker 01 Exactly.
28:11 Keke Palmer? Do I want to show up in the world the same way?
28:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, this is, for better or worse, this is what they think. This is how they want to portray themselves in the world. Does that align with any of my values? I actually think that can save you some time. Not the same as, here's where it goes too far. If you're stalking someone's page two years back and looking at like what they wrote about.
28:36 Keke Palmer? He clocked me.
28:40 Keke Palmer? Sometimes I just wanna see how bad they're doing. Like, can I just see?
28:44 Speaker 01 Mistakenly double tap that like.
28:46 Keke Palmer? Literally.
28:52 Keke Palmer? As I was saying earlier, Audible's Best of the Year picks are in, and honey, I am sad. Every year, Audible puts together a list of the best of the best when it comes to audio entertainment. I'm talking top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals in all your favorite genres, the works, okay? Now my ears are immediately perked up when I saw that they listed Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson's memoir, lovely one, as one of the year's must-listen titles. I checked it out, and it basically felt like I was having a heart-to-heart with the first black woman on the Supreme Court, okay? Really powerful stuff, y'all. From memoirs and sci-fi to mysteries and thrillers, from romance and well-being to fiction, Audible's carefully curated list in every category
29:36 Keke Palmer? is the best way to hear 2024's Best of the Year in audio entertainment. Audible, I mean, there's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com/bestoftheyear and discover all the year's best waiting for you.
29:52 Keke Palmer? Okay, before you go, I always play a game with my guests, and I'd love to play this one with you if you're down. Okay, it's called "Here For It or Nah." I'm gonna tell you a bunch of quotes, and you're gonna tell me if you're here for it or not. The quotes are gonna be from philosophers, authors, poets, et cetera. Bonus points if you can tell me who said it. Otherwise, I'll tell you who said it. Is it cool? Okay. "A man who truly loves you will never let you go, no matter how hard the situation is." Here for it or not, and do you know who maybe said it?
30:24 Speaker 01 I don't know who said it.
30:27 Speaker 01 You're here for it.
30:28 Keke Palmer? Okay, this is Steve Harvey from Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man.
30:32 Speaker 01 Okay.
30:33 Keke Palmer? So what's your reason for saying you're here for it?
30:36 Speaker 01 Well, you know what? I don't think it's always true. But I think it's a really worthwhile thing to believe. Because
30:43 Keke Palmer? Love that.
30:43 Speaker 01 Someone can really love you. But they cannot be capable of showing up for a real relationship. So that's where I don't necessarily think is true.
30:54 Keke Palmer? That's right.
30:55 Speaker 01 There are plenty of people who love you and they can't deliver.
30:58 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
30:58 Speaker 01 And by the way, them being able to deliver is the only thing that matters. If you're hiring for a CEO for your company and they love the company, but they suck.
31:10 Keke Palmer? Love what you got going here. But I can't show up on time.
31:16 Keke Palmer? But I love that you said it's a worthy thing to like, like go along with because regardless or not, the answer is if that person didn't show up, it's almost damn near like they didn't love you.
31:25 Speaker 01 Exactly. It doesn't help you to sit there like lamenting someone who's still out there in the world. But they love me so much. Pointless.
31:34 Keke Palmer? Okay, um, this is what I'm excited. Every relationship problem boils down to a decision. Is the love worth the pain? Again, this is what we're talking about early on in the conversation, this idea that love is painful, that I think that a lot of people completely reject.
31:50 Speaker 01 Do I get to know who said this?
31:51 Keke Palmer? You do.
31:53 Speaker 01 I don't know who said this.
31:55 Keke Palmer? This is Mira Christianbaum from Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay.
32:01 Keke Palmer? You here for it?
32:01 Speaker 01 Oh, interesting. That almost changes the context of it.
32:05 Keke Palmer? Well, explain it to us.
32:07 Speaker 01 Well, that phrase scares. Do you swear on this?
32:10 Keke Palmer? Of course.
32:11 Speaker 01 This scares the fucking shit out of me.
32:14 Keke Palmer? I love that we got two.
32:16 Speaker 01 That phrase is terrifying.
32:17 Keke Palmer? It is terrifying.
32:18 Speaker 01 Because it's a mandate for any and all kinds of abuse.
32:23 Keke Palmer? And I think that's why people hate it.
32:24 Speaker 01 Is it now, if someone was.
32:27 Keke Palmer? But I actually think that somebody's gonna hurt you in love.
32:30 Speaker 01 But I think that.
32:30 Keke Palmer? Be abusive, but I do think people are that way.
32:32 Speaker 01 But in some ways, it's like literally true, if you know what I mean. If someone, the moment you decide that the love isn't worth the pain anymore, that's the day you leave. Right? So in a very real sense, that actually is true. When someone is in a relationship for twenty years and they, you know, have been abused or they've been disrespected in that relationship.
32:56 Keke Palmer? Just not getting the love they need.
32:57 Speaker 01 Or just betrayed over and over. You know, when you start on the outside of a relationship, anyone would look at it and go, how is this person still tolerating this? And the reason is not because they're not in tremendous terrible pain. It's that for whatever reason, for them, the pain has not.
33:16 Keke Palmer? Overseen the love.
33:17 Speaker 01 It's not gotten to a point yet where the pain is the headline. The love is still the headline. When the pain becomes the headline and all of a sudden even someone who's swore by how much they can't leave their partner finally goes, I can't exist in this hell anymore, no matter how much I love them. That is the point at which you leave. So I think as a true statement, that's real. That the moment someone leaves is the moment the pain exceeds the the love. But it's a very dangerous, to take as a kind of mandate.
33:49 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
33:49 Speaker 01 Is a very dangerous thing. Yeah, and it's like, what I'm saying, I could almost see someone, especially a younger person, seeing that as almost a romantic notion that this person causes me so much pain, but you know, that's what it is, is you you you figure it out because you love them. That's a really dangerous thing.
34:07 Keke Palmer? Okay, love is giving something you don't have to someone who doesn't want it. So I'm gonna repeat that. Love is giving something you don't have to someone who doesn't want it.
34:18 Speaker 01 Love is giving something you don't have to someone who doesn't want it. That sounds.
34:25 Keke Palmer? This is Jacques Lecan, which.
34:27 Speaker 01 Is he describing like unrequited love?
34:30 Keke Palmer? So I guess.
34:31 Speaker 01 Giving something you don't have to someone who, oh wait, let me try and decode that. So it's like, it is, is he saying it's easy to give what's easy to give, but when some, when you don't have something?
34:42 Keke Palmer? Yes.
34:43 Speaker 01 That's love.
34:44 Keke Palmer? I think that, that's how I'm taking it. Love is when you.
34:50 Keke Palmer? Yeah, give something that you don't have. Give, or willing, maybe the willing would have been great. But it's like, I'm willing to go above and beyond for you. Even if I don't have it, and even if you don't want it, I think you should have it.
35:02 Speaker 01 Sounds pretty terrible. I don't know if I agree with any-
35:05 Keke Palmer? And he's so interesting with words and language, so we'd be so off with the interpretation.
35:10 Speaker 01 I don't know. I mean, firstly, the idea of giving something you don't have is a really dangerous one. Depending on the context, but I could see-
35:19 Keke Palmer? I don't know if he's being sarcastic or not.
35:20 Speaker 01 I could see people interpreting that as like, I've, I've got nothing left in the tank, but I'm gonna give it anyway. I'm gonna give more anyway. Like, that's a dangerous notion. How many women do you know that never give to themselves and keep giving to somebody else? Um, so I, that one concerns me, and to someone who doesn't want it, it sounds an awful lot like unrequited love to me.
35:43 Keke Palmer? And also, it kinda sounds like he's saying, I mean, again, thinking about the background of Jacques Lacan, love in this context to me is something none of us have. And then we're giving it to people that maybe don't even want it because they don't know that it's there to have. Like, all of it seems really dark.
36:02 Keke Palmer? Okay, I'm gonna do this last one because I love this person who said this. And I just heard her speak recently, and she's just so interesting. So, "The victim perpetrator model of infidelity is outdated. Affairs are not necessarily a sign of a broken relationship, but can sometimes be an attempt to stay connected with parts of ourselves."
36:24 Speaker 01 Is that Esther Perel?
36:25 Keke Palmer? Of course it is.
36:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:29 Speaker 01 This one I know.
36:30 Keke Palmer? She's so unique.
36:31 Speaker 01 She's really unique. I literally just spoke to her two weeks ago.
36:34 Keke Palmer? Nice flex. Me and Esther just some of them.
36:38 Speaker 01 Well, she was on my show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's so good. Her work is fascinating because she breaks out of that traditional stereotype of, um, you know, someone just had an affair because they don't love you, or someone had an affair because they're not happy, and she-
36:56 Keke Palmer? And brings it down to what I think it really often is, is what we do is about us. You know, so that psychoanalysis element that she brings to it, I think is really what, it makes it less about this person and more about me.
37:08 Speaker 01 Yes.
37:08 Keke Palmer? Why I'm doing thi- it's my accountability of why I do things.
37:11 Speaker 01 Exactly. She had a great line, something like, affairs happen when desires-
37:17 Speaker 01 Break free from the relationship, like when desire gets out.
37:22 Keke Palmer? Mm hmm.
37:23 Speaker 01 And that's a scary thing for people because they're like, well, how do I stop desire getting out of my relationship?
37:27 Keke Palmer? What does that even mean? Type of vibe.
37:29 Speaker 01 But I think there's a lot of truth to asking those questions. What, what was going on in my relationship that made me feel I had to seek something elsewhere? You know, was it because of something I was unwilling to communicate?
37:44 Keke Palmer? Yeah, like, how did I let the intimacy between this union become me solo?
37:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:50 Keke Palmer? And I'm unable to share.
37:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm unable to share and there's a lot of blame on partners by some people of like, well, they should have given you more. They should have done more, but it's no, no, no. What was happening with me that I didn't share? And if I have shared, I didn't share how close I was to doing something like that. Or I didn't leave the relationship to do something like that. Or I
38:17 Keke Palmer? Wasn't I'm not to say.
38:17 Speaker 01 Or I didn't have a standard for my life in that moment that said, that's a line I don't cross. Or that I did have that standard, but I violated that standard in that moment. And how do I make sure, if I'm fortunate enough that my partner stays with me? What's my process? How do I know I never trespass that standard of mine again for mine and their sake? Uh, so there's, it, it brings up a lot, but I do think as, as Esther's work highlights really importantly, that affairs are very, very complicated things. As you say, I think it's a really great point that affairs are very personal things. And I think it does take it out of that realm of hopefully for the partner, for the person on the other side.
39:01 Speaker 01 What did I do wrong or how am I not enough? Or because those are the, those are the questions that then torture us. And the thing I like to say to people on that subject is whatever someone does to betray you, whether it's an affair or something else, whatever they do to hurt you. It's we're all very quick to go to, am I to blame?
39:26 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
39:27 Speaker 01 But you can take accountability for what you think you could have done differently. While separating the, the way they reacted to whatever you did.
39:40 Speaker 01 Was wrong. That's the difference.
39:44 Keke Palmer? Yes, right.
39:44 Speaker 01 You're not responsible for the way they reacted.
39:47 Keke Palmer? That's right.
39:48 Speaker 01 You could be responsible for saying, oh, I wish I'd.
39:50 Keke Palmer? Didn't give you the love you needed.
39:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, I wish I'd shown up differently. You could have left. You could have done a hundred other things.
39:55 Keke Palmer? Yeah, you didn't have to betray me and yourself.
39:57 Speaker 01 That was your, it's like people in, in early dating, when someone, you know, when you, you've heard this term love bombing. You know, someone comes in and they love bomb you and they manipulate you and you take advantage. Then in those stories, a lot of the time, people are like, how could you fall for that? How could you, when someone was telling you all those things that soon or whatever, when they were trying to, you know, telling you they were gonna marry you after the first date and this.
40:19 Keke Palmer? But I mean.
40:19 Speaker 01 Look, it's.
40:22 Keke Palmer? How could I not believe you?
40:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're only human. The, that, in that situation, you're responsible for the fact that you gave that person too much too soon.
40:33 Keke Palmer? That's right. The boundaries, no boundaries.
40:35 Speaker 01 But you're not responsible for their reaction to giving you, for, to you giving too much too soon, was to do something.
40:45 Keke Palmer? Take advantage.
40:45 Speaker 01 Terrible.
40:46 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
40:46 Speaker 01 To scam you or to ghost you or to, you're not responsible for the bad behavior.
40:52 Keke Palmer? Yeah, the Tinder swindle bit.
40:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
40:54 Keke Palmer? They went too far.
40:55 Speaker 01 He's responsible for that.
40:57 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
40:57 Speaker 01 You're only responsible for the instinct in you that gave too much too quickly. And that's worth exploring. That's personal accountability. You're not responsible for the terrible things that, that they did.
41:10 Keke Palmer? Now, before we go, I have a brand new product called Matthew AI that you want to show me today?
41:16 Speaker 01 We just created this new thing. We've taken all of my books, all of my courses, all of my videos, everything, and downloaded it into Matthew AI. And Matthew AI will now answer your question. If anyone out there is like, how can I ask Matthew a question after listening to this? Go to askmh.com, A S K.
41:39 Keke Palmer? You guys hear this?
41:40 Speaker 01 M H dot com, askmh.com.
41:44 Speaker 01 And you can literally just try it out and ask any question you want. Any dating question. It will tell you texts that you can write for things. Like, it's crazy.
41:53 Keke Palmer? Matthew, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been so nice talking to you. And guys, if you want to check out Matthew AI, go to askmh.com. And of course, check out Matthew's book, Love Life. And I'll see you next time. Also, he has the most important women in his life here. His mother and his wife. So, okay, he's about what he says.
42:12 Speaker 01 Thank you for having me.
42:13 Keke Palmer? Thank you.
42:17 Keke Palmer? I really lived for hearing Matthew's takes on love and relationships. My takeaway is that even though the idea of finding the one sounds really romantic in a lot of ways, it probably isn't super healthy. Finding a life partner is all about finding a person that has imperfections we can accept and who's willing to put in the work with us. So get out there and find your imperfect person. And I'll see you next week because you know it's your girl.
42:52 Keke Palmer? Enjoy Baby This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts. And now on YouTube, where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This is Keke Palmer early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
43:16 Keke Palmer? Baby This is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post producer. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Our producer is Tristan McNeil. Senior producers are Lizzie Basset and Candace Manriquez-Britt. Our executive producers are Dave Easton and Marshall Louie.
Previous Kings of Comedy, Toni Braxton, and a Touch of Tea with Cedric the Entertainer Next Family Secrets with Kerry Washington Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated