"Why does criticism hurt so much?" Dr Julie on triggers and behaviour patterns

Ever looked in the mirror and told yourself “I am enough” ...and not believed a word of it? Psychologist Dr Julie Smith reckons affirmations only work to boost confidence if – deep down – you already believe them. In this chat with Fearne, Julie explains why your brain needs evidence, not mantras, to change your critical inner voice and build self-worth. She also talks through why criticism from others can hit so hard, and why the discomfort felt is often an echo of a much older wound. Julie breaks down how the patterns we developed in childhood keep replaying in adulthood. Julie also talks about her breast cancer diagnosis, and how it tested everything she’d been teaching everyone else about fear, agency, and mental health. Plus, what’s the simple therapy exercise that could change how you carry pain? Dr Julie’s best-selling book, Open When, is available now in paperback. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Dr Julie’s first Happy Place episode https://pod.fo/e/15d94a Estelle Bingham https://pod.fo/e/2c3bf2 Adele Roberts https://pod.fo/e/22e78e Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fearne Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that gets you to trust in yourself more. Today, I'm chatting to Dr Julie Smith.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  The core thing about mental health is you feel so out of control and overwhelmed and distressed, but as soon as you see an avenue for something that you can do, your mind has a guide to follow. And when I was sort of working with probably young women mostly, who would come along feeling that I was going to fix them in some way, or that all the things that life could throw at you, they didn't know how to deal with it, or that they didn't believe they could cope. All that changed between the beginning of therapy and the end of therapy, life was still stressful for them and they still had lots of stuff to face, but they just realised they could trust themselves to do something with it.

• 0:46Fearne Cotton?

  I hope you're all good. I'm currently sat in my kitchen. I just went for a big old morning walk because my head was all scrambled. And then, do you know what I just did? I got in, I was stood in the kitchen, I was really hot after my walk. So I took, well, I lifted my jumper over my head, without realising I didn't have a t-shirt on underneath. And I've got a bunch of builders stood on the driveway. So any one of them might have just got a quick flash of my bra. Who knows? I'm very red-faced and quickly pulled my jumper back down. So here I am, sat, slightly mortified, ignoring the builders, and cracking on with hopefully delivering you an episode of Happy Place, which is soothing to your

• 1:30Fearne Cotton?

  soul. I think it really will be. I think we all need it. I don't know about you, but when I was on my walk just now, I went on the walk because I was meant to be doing a Happy Place episode, but one of the guests wasn't very well. So all plans changed. And I was voice noting lots of my mates about stuff in my life, stuff in their life. And it just seems like everyone's got a hell of a lot of shit going on right now. And that's where good friends really come into play, right? We're all kind of therapising each other on the voice note, which I'm so here for. I love my mates, I fucking love them. Anyway, this episode, if you are having a bit of a mare, will be a tonic, I reckon. I've been looking forward to having psychologist Dr Julie back on the show for years. We haven't

• 2:15Fearne Cotton?

  had a catch-up in ages. And I know that you lot have been excited too, because in the last few years, her social media presence has grown so massively, because we are so hungry for her wise words around things like anxiety and confidence. We're going to be talking about accepting both strengths and weaknesses within us all. Also treating ourselves with self compassion, much like you treat a child, actually, which is a really good way of thinking about it. How to truly ask yourself what you need right now and respond appropriately. Something I have a great big problem with because I often don't give myself the thing I need. Also, this was such an interesting part of the chat.

• 2:56Fearne Cotton?

  Why affirmations like I am strong or I am valued might be making you feel worse about yourself? That bit is fascinating. And also, on a more personal note, how Dr Julie coped with fear around her breast cancer diagnosis, which she's been very generous sharing.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Help I sexted my boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  I'm William Hanson.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  I'm Jordan North.

• 3:58Speaker 04

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 4:03Speaker 04

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexted My Boss.

• 4:13Speaker 04

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  Just search Sexted.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 4:24Fearne Cotton?

  Now, we'll get to Dr Julie in just a moment, but I was wondering, have you seen the Happy Place Festival news that all of our amazing workshops are now available for ticket holders to book? There are so many incredible sessions you can book into as little extras. There's, for instance, harp sound meditations and guided breathwork. And there's seashell painting and face yoga too. So make sure you head to the Happy Place website to book yours now. And obviously, there's loads included with your festival ticket already. I have to say, I am particularly looking forward to line dancing in the new area we've got this year, which is called the Happy Hub. Get me in there now. Get your

• 5:08Fearne Cotton?

  tickets and get your dancing shoes and I will see you there. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 5:35Fearne Cotton?

  Dr Julie, how lovely to see you after quite a few years now.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  It's been a while, hasn't it?

• 5:41Fearne Cotton?

  You last came on the pod in 2023.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:44Fearne Cotton?

  Mad. And literally, it's just gone like that.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  I can't believe it's been that long.

• 5:48Fearne Cotton?

  Where's, where's time going?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  We've just been having our heads down, scurrying along.

• 5:52Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you've been incredibly busy and so much has happened since I saw you last in all different shapes and sizes. One thing that's happened is your book and your message has just continued to blow up further and further. I've seen you on so many like big global US podcasts recently and your message just keeps spreading, your books just keep selling. What's that process been like for you? Because I know also you're, you're quite a shy person, so it's, it's a lot.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's sort of exciting and terrifying, all in the same kind of thing, really. It's sort of, you, you never imagine it for yourself. You never imagined that anything like that's going to happen. And I thought, I had a thought about that on the train on the way here, actually, because I was holding my book and then I became... Aware of people on the train and

• 6:39Fearne Cotton?

  She's holding her own book.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Whether people would realise and um and I I thought, oh, you know, I remember back to being a kid. If, you know, when I was reading kind of self-helpy type books, if or like sort of as a teenager. If I'd have known then or if someone had said to me, you know, you're going to write one of those in the future, I would just, yeah, I would never have believed it. So.

• 7:00Fearne Cotton?

  It's so brilliant.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Uh but yeah, I mean, it's all good. And do you know, when I go to these sort of uh big live events and things and there's people there that say, oh, it's helped me in this way or that chapter changed things for me. Then it's just that sort of the reminder really of why I'm doing it and why I started in the first place. And that it's worthwhile. And yeah, so.

• 7:21Fearne Cotton?

  Because it's quite an abstract thing, like even if I'm doing this podcast, you know, we're not, we're in a boxed off room on our own. We don't know what the reaction is. You hope that people are going to receive whatever you're saying or writing and it's going to impact them positively, but you don't entirely know. So I think those little, you know, one-on-one interactions of people stopping you in the street or or even DMing you. But I think when it is in person, you're like, oh, my God, this is actually people are, people are reading this book and they and it or your books and and it's doing something positive.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think when you're recording or you're making content, it's not a conversation, is it? It's you talking into a camera, kind of pretending it's a person and and it's actually quite a sort of lonely existence in some ways, you know. I I'll do the school drop off in the morning and there's just me at home by myself all day and then, you know.

• 8:09Fearne Cotton?

  Various bowls of rice and coloured water.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Or just my computer and my cat or something, you know, and it's sort of, um, and so it's a real kind of, you you can almost forget that people are watching sometimes that that, um, yeah, or someone sort of calls you in the street and you think, oh, my God, people actually saw that video. How embarrassing.

• 8:29Fearne Cotton?

  How embarrassing, Bart, brilliant, because we need more positive content out there. We just do. We need stuff that is going to be truly helpful. And your videos have helped me so much over the years, as have your books. But it is, it's a funny thing when your work starts to blow up like that. And I remember, I mean, I can't think how long ago this was, but that first TED Talk that Brené Brown put out about shame. And then she put out a subsequent one not that long after, talking about the reaction to the blow up of the first video and saying that she actually felt shame and kind of had to readdress the whole thing because it was so huge. And when you've got numbers like you have, watching your videos, reading your books,

• 9:11Fearne Cotton?

  there is sort of a level of, I guess, responsibility, but also just, I don't know, maybe overwhelm. It's, it's a lot. It's a lot of people. Have you experienced that, where you've just thought, oh my God, this is actually all a bit too much?

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, hugely. And where I had a quite, you know, a small, simple, insular life, before I had my really small practice, it was just me, you know, controlling my time with the family and everything. I was confident that I knew I was good at what I was doing, but I was in that place where probably wasn't challenging, overly challenging myself until I was doing this stuff. And then I was well out of my comfort zone. And so I had to use what I was preaching and actually test the stuff and make sure, you know, does this work? And, you know, because I was actually having to use a lot of the skills myself. Or I would then, you know, reread old books and it would feel completely different because suddenly I was in the deep end and I was sort of really, yeah, just outside of my comfort zone.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And so in some ways it was great, you know, it was a great test of, of, does this stuff actually work?

• 10:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Which, you know, which bits work for me and which don't?

• 10:16Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt. How important do you think it is for us to step outside of our comfort zone? I think that, I don't know, 90% of my job pushes me outside my comfort zone. You know, every time I have, you know, this sort of situation where I'm interviewing somebody or I'm doing radio or whatever, I'm forced to have opinions, you know.

• 10:38Fearne Cotton?

  Hopefully have a thoughtful conversation that flows and that people really like, which is I guess a bit of a vulnerable place to be because you're putting yourself out there and you know, you want to have a high standard of content that you're making, but you never quite know if you're hitting the mark, you know, all of it feels a bit scary, but not enough to stop me. I I do love it. There are certainly things that could push me. I don't know, stepping really outside of it would be for me doing live TV again. I don't feel like I'm anywhere near wanting to do that. But what is that, like, what's the precipice where we go, oh, no, and that's too far. And how do we know?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a really interesting question, actually, because I kind of think, I mean, I've been reading your book and

• 11:18Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God, thank you.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Which I love, by the way, I'm not finished yet, but I'm just loving that personal story because partly, you know, I relate to a lot of it and I think a lot of people will because there's that sense of, you know, these are things that a lot of girls particularly, I think, struggle with and and challenges that we work through. And as we age, I think we find our ways around it or we find ways to connect. But it's it's different because, you know, I've had that experience where I guess you've been in the public eye since, you know, what, sixteen?

• 11:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Before sixteen, maybe. Um, whereas I have had that very private, simple life and then been thrust into this stuff. I noticed how I in that's kind of more private life, I felt like a confident person. I felt like I was happy with who I was. Everything was okay. Just by being more public, it sort of threw all of that up in the air in some ways and things that I felt like I was comfortable with or parts of myself that I hadn't even thought to worry about suddenly became magnified or things that I, you know, is that enough? Or do I look right? Do I sound right? Do I know enough? All of these. So you, as soon as you feel exposed and public

• 12:26Speaker 01

  in front of people you don't even know, it changes every, all of that stuff, doesn't it? And it magnifies any tiny insecurity you may have and and it forces you to then do the work to think about, why is that there? And does it matter? And how do I get around it? Do I just relentlessly try to be more and more perfect? Or can I come to a place where I'm okay with being imperfect? Effect and anticipating the judgment that might come from it.

• 12:53Fearne Cotton?

  That's such a big one. I think it's such a big one for everybody to, you know, all of us have got flaws and issues and a backstory and have made mistakes, all of us. We don't believe that about other people, I guess, a lot of the time. We think, oh, they're nailing it. They're just doing so well. Or even if it's in a sort of competitive sense with work, they're doing better than me or whatever. Everybody is lugging around some shit. And I think, you know, I certainly tried to tackle that in my book, Likeable, assuming that if I were perfect, not only expressing perfection to other people, but if I somehow felt like, and I've done everything I can to be perfect, then people will like me. And obviously, there's no such thing for a star. It's exhausting.

• 13:37Fearne Cotton?

  And actually, the best way of tackling it is to become comfortable with the things that, you know, that's a weakness of mine. That's, you know, not my strength or something that is, you know, a particularly shiny part of my existence. And also, these are the places and the times where I've really messed up and it's all right, but it's quite hard to get there. What's been your own sort of journey with having acceptance around the parts of yourself or your life that you don't like?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I think when it comes to the content and making content, I realized that there was a specific moment, actually, when I, there was some video that had loads and loads of comments in it. And I, I was scrolling through the comments and I was skimming past all these lovely, lovely comments.

• 14:21Fearne Cotton?

  Where's the shitty one?

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I realized I'm looking for anyone who's not okay with me or what I've said. And, and it was just this moment of awareness where I had to go, no.

• 14:33Fearne Cotton?

  And we're done.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. No more scanning through comments and stuff like that. That's enough. And, and so as a result, I now don't often spend much time in that kind of area or, you know, responding to those kind of things.

• 14:46Fearne Cotton?

  What is that? Is that because I've done that many times? And I know other people will have, and people outside of the public, I will have, will have done that on a, on a, on a level. Are we going, I need to see if there's some shitty comments here because they've seen through the act? Or we're looking for the bit that. Where maybe we've given the game away, like we've shown the bad part that we didn't want to. Is that what we're doing?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you have any kind of core beliefs around not being enough in any way, which, which most of us has something along those lines, then the fear is someone is going to spot that or something about it and vocalise that, you know, in the comments or whatever. And, and, and so you're looking for the person who's going to say the thing that you most want to hide, you most don't want people to say. And then it reconfirms that belief. And so it's so distressing when it happens. And, and so for me, when it comes to the content stuff, I would deliberately not spend time doing that stuff. But also I kind of had to reassess, why am I doing this?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  I'm not doing it for social validation. I'm not doing it to gain friends. I'm doing it to help some people. And, and I had to keep coming back to that thread of, because it happens all the time, right? You make a video and then, you know, my husband, who kind of edits everything will go, oh, do you like this? And, and as he's playing it back, what he wants me to do is read the captions to make sure there's no spelling mistakes or anything. And, and I haven't even heard a word that's in the video because I'm looking at some bit of hair that's sticking out and, oh no, did I look like that? Or, oh, my makeup's really terrible, you know, and you're just fixating on these little things.

• 16:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Um, and you haven't kind of seen the, so I spend very little time looking at that stuff. I have to go with the sense of, okay, there was a reason behind the video. If I know it has a thread of value that I know someone else has found helpful before, that's enough. It's got to go out there because I'm not here to be, you know, a model or a perfect speaker or a, you know, I've just got to get that message out.

• 16:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, looking even outside of making content, for anyone who's listening to this who Maybe finds getting feedback difficult, or even somebody complaining, I don't know, it could be a friend having an issue with you, or a neighbour's complained about something, whatever it might be.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Mm.

• 17:09Fearne Cotton?

  That can be a tricky or an awkward or very confronting

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:13Fearne Cotton?

  thing to deal with. I mean, again, when I was doing the publicity for this book, I decided, I was by no means forced into this, to read some mean tweets about me.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:26Fearne Cotton?

  And they were quite personal and I was sort of dreading it, but I thought this is going to be an interesting exercise, because once I've read them, I've read them.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Mm.

• 17:33Fearne Cotton?

  And I will realise, I'm just sat here still and I'm fine. So I read them privately at first at home, read a few, I was like, oh Christ, like that, fuck, you know, you know, you're sort of like the blow of it.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:44Fearne Cotton?

  And then I did it again on camera and I was one step removed and I was like, okay, I actually can see the funny side of some of these. And I think there was, it was like exposure therapy, like by the end of it, I was like,

• 17:58Fearne Cotton?

  it doesn't matter, it's just someone's passing thought, but they happen to write it down. I don't need to believe that as fact. And I think that's the issue, when I've had it in the past, I've found getting critical feedback tricky, or even someone confronting me or saying something, you know, that's just feels full on or like a bit of a personal moment. I found that very difficult because I've instantly turned on myself, like, yeah, they're right and I'm wrong. They're right and I've got this all wrong and I'm a big mess, or whatever it might be, or I'm shit, I'm going to give up. I've taken it way, way too seriously and way too far. What would your advice be for, for sort of being able to receive any kind of feedback

• 18:41Fearne Cotton?

  or critique at work or within friendship circles or families and not turn on yourself, essentially?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's interesting actually, because there's quite, there's a, a nice bit of overlap between our books, in a sense, you've got that sort of personal experience. And something I sort of talk about in, in Open When, but also in, in my first book, is, is this idea that when something like that happens, the reason it stings so badly is often because it's triggering a memory of something that hurt really badly, things that we don't think about, memories we don't necessarily even have access to.

• 19:15Fearne Cotton?

  In childhood or just any time?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, we all have a core need. To be connected, right, to to have that relationship with our caregivers. Any sign that that is inconsistent or not reliable or not available, or we're not reassured that it's going to continue to be available. So, you know, that can encompass a whole range of different childhood experiences, triggers off such a huge threat response in any child's mind that it becomes part of the template. So in those early relationships, we develop those templates for what to expect from all future relationships. And so anything that's painful is going to be laid down as a potential.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  And so then, you know, we get into adulthood and even though logically we know better and, you know, I I could live without that person who's making those comments. But feeling that sense of be it rejection or judgment or humiliation, all of those things, you know, your brain doesn't only take information about what's happening now. It uses past information to help make sense of what's happening now. So it triggers the pain that you would have felt before, you know. So it's really intense and really powerful. And we're we're in it. And like you said, that one of the best things you did was to slightly remove yourself from it and to kind of see it from the outside.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And that's a lot of what happens in therapy is, you know, you you look back at something and then you what we would call kind of diffuse from it. So instead of being in it and saying, you know, I'm shame, I'm feeling shame and stuff like that. You might kind of use language, for example, to say, I notice I had the experience of whatever the feelings were. Even just through language like that, you're you're just creating a slight gap between you and the thing.

• 21:05Fearne Cotton?

  I am, I am like fully embodied this thing. I am ashamed or I am angry.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it becomes, instead of it being you, it's an experience that's washing over you.

• 21:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Which then implicitly implies that this, you know, it's temporary. It's it's something that's happening, but it will pass. And so you can kind of get that bit of distance, but also just through doing the work of recognizing, where did this come from? Where did this wound come from? Once you have that work in place and you understand, you know, the the different patterns that were developed early in life that keep playing out for you, then you kind of can, you can see it all from a bird's eye view. So the the details of it are different every time. So it might be a comment online or a friend or. Someone shouting something in the street. But if you can see that every time the cycle is the same, there's some sign of negativity.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  And I'm back to where I was before. And then I do this, have the same coping strategies that I always have, which actually make things worse and blah, blah, blah. And so that cycle is the same every time. So that kind of, you know, that formulation, that kind of literally writing things out on a piece of paper in, in therapy, helps you to kind of see it from a bird's eye view. And that's another separation again. Where, and, and when you become more familiar with that, and you can do things like that through journaling and, you know, self-reflection. But what it does is it means that you first look at it in hindsight. So, oh, that happened last week and I need to go through it. But when, when you do that enough, you start to notice the cycle when you're in it. So, you know, the, a comment online and you're feeling the pain.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  And you're noticing the coping strategy, whatever that might be. But you're also remembering the map of the, you know, the formulation of, okay, now I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. I know where, where this has come from. And I know that if I, instead of doing this thing that makes it worse, I actually go and meet my needs right now, then things turn out different. And so, you know, that's where the exits start. But it's a whole piece of work. It's not,

• 23:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  It's not a quick fix.

• 23:07Fearne Cotton?

  No, because these habits and I guess those moments where we know we're falling into the same habitual cycle again and again is so deeply ingrained. If, if most of it's set in childhood, which sort of scares the shit out of me. Cause as a parent, you're a parent. Like I sometimes worry about my every move. Like, oh my God, that's going to have totally messed them up for adult life. Or are they going to think this because of that? And, you know, you can totally send yourself mad worrying about it. But it is so deeply ingrained in all of us. Is it possible for everybody to break those cycles?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, change is absolutely possible. And actually, it's interesting, isn't it, that with with that scenario of, you know, your own parenting, for example, when you know that there are certain cycles that you live out because of your own childhood experience, being aware of it is painful, but if we're willing to experience that pain, then we're able to change it. But if we're not willing to go there, then we just live out the same cycles without any chance of change, because it's so automatic, right?

• 24:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  And I had that myself, where I I recognise my own tendency to, you know, I'm probably more of like an avoidant attachment style. And I will, you know, give lots of love through duty. So I will get that dinner done and I will clean up and I will make sure everyone's got their uniforms for the next day. But because I'm aware of my tendency to prioritise those things, I am able to say, oh, stop. Yeah, my my my daughter's trying to get my attention while I'm cooking. Maybe maybe I can put this stuff down for a minute and just have the fun.

• 24:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  And just show the affection. And so it's only, you know, it's painful to to recognise that imperfection and to see it in the moment, oh, I know what I'm doing. But it's only through being willing to have that pain and have that experience that I'm able to then break the cycle in the moment. But it means acknowledging that, you know, I'm imperfect because of various experiences and therefore I need to be brave and and face those.

• 25:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, parenting's gonna do that. I had it last night where I was doing a cycle and I knew I was doing it. I the TV wouldn't work and it was like eight o'clock at night and I promised my daughter that we would finish watching Mean Girls because we'd started it the week before. And I thought, that's gonna be lovely. I've had the busiest day at work. This is gonna be my moment just to like switch off for a minute. Wouldn't fucking work. And I had a tantrum. I was like, nothing works in this house. And nothing works in my life. This has been the worst day ever. And I was like, why am I doing it? I know I'm doing it. I was so aware in the moment that I was doing it. The only way I could turn it around was just to go, really sorry that I had a tantrum. And I'm just really tired. And that's that's where I'm at today. And that's my like first step into the humbling notion of like making that change in that habit.

• 26:01Fearne Cotton?

  Because we're all so hardwired to just do the thing that actually doesn't help us out in the long run.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and those moments of repair are so. Life changing, you know, when we're willing to acknowledge, whoop, had a moment and, and here comes the repair that that feels kind of excruciating to begin with, but ends in a better connection. And you and you can do those repairs with kids or partners or or yourself, you know, and you have the moments where you give into a whim that isn't in your best interests, or, you know, you you give into a coping strategy that's old and you know it doesn't work for you. You could then respond by hammering yourself with shame and criticism. Why am I still doing that kind of, or you could come back with sort of compassion and recognition that actually this is really tough. That's why I'm going

• 26:50Speaker 01

  around that cycle again, but I know where I'm at. And, and, you know, saying the things that you would say to your own child if they were struggling with turning something around. And, you know, those sorts of repairs with yourself and other people are the only thing that helps us to then reconnect so that we can move on from it.

• 27:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  And rather than go around the cycle.

• 27:08Fearne Cotton?

  I hadn't really thought of it because I I was weirdly talking to one of my friends who's in therapy at the moment. I mean, I'll go to therapy, so we talk about it a lot. And he was talking about repair and he was talking about the importance of it actually within parenting. But I had never put that sort of like on myself as a personal endeavor that I could have that level of compassion to go, oh, my God, I'm being so awful to myself. Stop, pause, what would be better? Because I think that's almost harder than doing it with other people because we're like, it doesn't matter about me. I'm just, you know, chatting negative crap in my head as usual. I'll just carry on with my day. But actually, we need to see that in ourselves that we deserve a bit of, like, just to let

• 27:51Fearne Cotton?

  ourselves off the hook, quite frankly. Like, we have good days, we have shit days, and that's just so normal.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  And it's the stuff you do with with a child or, you know, an infant, is you would see if they were distressed or sort of emotionally dysregulated. And then as a parent, you would kind of validate that, or you scoop them up and you help them to turn it around or to make it better or to shift their energy state. And and we do it for a child, but we don't necessarily do it for ourselves. We just hammer ourselves for not being in the perfect state at the perfect time.

• 28:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  And and so if we're able to sort of access that compassion that we show for the people we love the most and just redirect it and use it, you know, and so a lot of that work comes from. Building that self-awareness of rather than we're all really good at just numbing, aren't we? You know, emotions go up and down, mood states go up and down, and we just crush it. We keep crushing it so that we can.

• 28:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we're like phone, food, drink, TV, like anything to distract us.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, coffee, coffee, coffee, up that energy level when actually our body is just trying to say, I'm really tired.

• 28:53Fearne Cotton?

  Stop.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, you know, a lot of it, I think, is that being able to learn how to truly listen to your body and your mind with, not with judgment, that it's not good enough because you're not feeling great, but with the curiosity of why am I not feeling great? What's gone on? Why is that uncomfortable? And what do I need? You know, all of that, all of those sensations and those emotions are loaded with information about what we need that we're not getting. And if we're then able to kind of respond to that by meeting some of those needs, then we're well away. But it starts with that willingness to kind of experience it without the judgment, but with curiosity instead of, oh, that's interesting.

• 29:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think curiosity changes the whole direction of it. It's like, because just judging yourself is like, full stop, a dead end. I feel like shit. And actually, the curiosity is like, this is quite interesting. Why am I doing this again? Why have I fallen into the same pattern again? I've noticed that myself recently with things that I've been doing or finding myself saying to people, I'm like, how have I not learned this lesson? Like, what am I doing? But this is interesting. Let's get stuck into this when I go to therapy next.

• 30:04Speaker 05

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 30:22Speaker 05

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 30:34Speaker 05

  That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 30:38Speaker 06

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 30:40Speaker 07

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 30:41Speaker 06

  And this is Boots Off.

• 30:44Speaker 07

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 30:52Speaker 06

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 30:59Speaker 07

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 31:02Speaker 06

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 31:04Speaker 07

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 31:07Speaker 06

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 31:15Fearne Cotton?

  Since I last saw you in 2023, so much has changed. I mean, you're going to know a lot more about this than I will, but in terms of science, neuroscience, how we talk about therapy, how we talk about the brain, what do you think you've either learned or changed tact with since 2023 in terms of your work or how you even approach the subject of mental health?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a great question. Has it changed? I think it is in the process of changing at the moment, actually. We're in kind of writing mode again, and I'm in a different place than I was when I wrote my first book. And so with that first book, I just wanted to get out all of these great little educational kind of soundbites and things that I know had helped other people in different ways. And so I did that. And it was this sort of, you know, easy access, just get, you know, get all those things out and make them as easy to understand as possible. But in order to do that, it had to sort of miss out some of the deeper, more lengthy, more complicated, harder to

• 32:21Speaker 01

  accept stuff that can also come in therapy. And so I think I'm sort of moving into that space now where I'm thinking more about how to, because that's difficult stuff to communicate, right? It's really tough.

• 32:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  It puts a lot of, and I think that's probably why I never included it before, was it puts a lot of people off thinking about these things. And I was so focused on trying to show people that might not even consider therapy, that there are lots of things you can do to help yourself.

• 32:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  And so I kept it at that level that felt acceptable to everyone. But now I'm in a place where I'm less trying to be acceptable to everyone, but I'm more about, okay. There's some other stuff that I haven't shown you.

• 33:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, cool.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 33:06Fearne Cotton?

  That's exciting. And also, I guess, your readers, the people that follow your work, they're going to be ready. Like, they've read, they've read your first books and now they're like, and what's next?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:17Fearne Cotton?

  And I think the conversation, you know, it's still a long way to go if we look at talking about therapy, making it more accessible to everybody, the whole conversation. But it feels more in flow maybe than when we first met. You know, it's one of the reasons your book blew up so massively, because it was needed. People needed to have the tips, the tools, and we'd certainly still do. But it feels like we're ready now. Like, Dr Julie, take us to the next level. We're here for it.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  And I think the trouble is with, you know, a lot of the like mindset stuff and the kind of things that work fairly quickly is they're really useful in the moment. But without doing that deeper work, they're fairly temporary. So you have to keep work, it's like, I don't know, personal hygiene. You have to keep putting in the work every day and, and keep updating and, and doing more of it. Because it's fairly short-lived, the sort of impact of it. So the, the more sort of longer term in-depth stuff can make that more sustainable and, and make it last longer. But it's a bit more kind of exposing and vulnerable. And you've got to be sort of quite brave to go there, I think.

• 34:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, brave and definitely disciplined, which now I'm on tear because it sounds so boring. But the, I mean, I've said this on other podcast episodes that I've done, but the, the shift for me, not that I'm by any means like, I've nailed it, but like a big positive shift in my life in terms of how I think about myself more so, because that was not good before, has been the consistency of going to therapy once a week, which I feel very privileged to do. But also dedicating each day to remembering what the hell I just talked about or any ideas that came from that or moves that could be made because of what I've just discovered or talked about, got curious about on that occasion.

• 35:06Fearne Cotton?

  And I think we, you know, we do live in a world now where we all just want a quick fix in whatever way. Like, I want the shoes. I'm gonna feel better, um, I'm gonna eat that thing and then I'm gonna get a dopamine hit. Doctor Julie, tell me a tip and then my life will change. It's actually, it's every bloody day.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:20Fearne Cotton?

  Until we die and no one wants to hear that. It's boring.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And people talk about the kind of the self and and self care and doing the right things. As I think people can get quite sort of, uh, maybe there's a few misconceptions around that in the that self care is just giving in to your latest whim or your your what you want right now. Not necessarily what you need right now or in the long term. And and actually yourself is more than that thing that you want right now. It's actually your whole life and all of the different areas that you have to show up in and your responsibilities. And and so kind of, you know, self care really is is about thinking about your whole life and your future and then acting in a way that's in your best interest for your future self.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  And sometimes that's not doing what you want to do either. It's doing the less comfortable thing.

• 36:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And also you have to know, you have to, I think you have to like yourself, right? To bother doing it. Cause if you don't, if you've got low self esteem.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 36:20Fearne Cotton?

  Just like, what's the point? You've got to like yourself and that's

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:22Fearne Cotton?

  That's a whole other thing.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  You have to care for yourself as if you are, you believe you're someone of value. That you have to recognize that you are worthwhile. And and I think you have to, that's when you don't go for, you know, this stuff online about sort of um affirmations that you might not believe in, you know, I, I am strong, I am lovable, I am fantastic. And that might get, you know, that might give you a little hit in the moment. But it's not gonna last if you don't already believe it.

• 36:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  So i- if you, if you already believe it, but you know you're going into a difficult scenario, then you can use that to sort of re-engage with it.

• 36:59Fearne Cotton?

  So it is a good short term tool.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  If you already believe in it.

• 37:02Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  If you're telling yourself something you don't believe. So if you don't believe you're someone of value, but you're telling yourself you are, actually what you end up doing is setting up a little argument in your own head. Cause your thoughts will go, well, actually, I know different. Here, here's all the evidence to say that I'm not. You know, and so you start up this little internal argument in your own head about whether you really are or not. And so if you don't believe it, I would say go with the truth, go with, okay, if I don't feel of value. What's that about? That's, that's really interesting that someone could truly believe that about themselves and, and could not recognize all the ways that they could contribute or, you know, be of value. And so, you know, I would want to kind of look at that with curiosity again and say, well,

• 37:48Speaker 01

  okay, if I don't think that at the moment because X, Y and Z, maybe I'm not living in a way in line with my values. And I'm not doing the things that would make me feel that way. Then I've got a clear path towards what, how I work on that. And, and inevitably, so you can't sit there and convince yourself that you're of value. But your brain can learn through your actions, the evidence of what you actually do and how you live. And so you can create a picture of if I was going to feel like that and, and believe it. What would I need to be doing? How would I need to be living? What would I do differently? How would I interact with people differently? How would I parent differently or work differently or, um, you know, and really break it down to all of those little things. What would I do?

• 38:32Speaker 01

  When I first opened my eyes in the morning differently and, and so you begin to look at then, why you don't feel like that as opposed to just trying to squash it and make it not true.

• 38:42Fearne Cotton?

  How sensible. I love this.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  It's information, isn't it?

• 38:46Fearne Cotton?

  Data.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  But yeah, yeah. And even if logically you know it's not true, but you caught underneath kind of believe it anyway. You've got to tear that apart and work out what's going on and because, you know, if you squash it, you never get the value of it. Of why you're feeling that way. And then you might just numb it without fixing it.

• 39:07Fearne Cotton?

  God, that's so interesting. I've never actually heard that being properly dissected because I think most people are confused. We can watch all manner of content on Instagram, say, or go onto YouTube or whatever, wherever you're imbibing this information. And you'll be told by one person, do a journal, another person, do affirmations, another person this. But actually to break it down and go, right, do affirmations, but only if you bloody well believe it. Don't just start flying them out. If you haven't got the foundation of, yeah, I, I do believe that I, I've got values and I am a valuable person to society. To my family, to my friends. And if not, one interesting time to change your life because you've actually worked out this isn't working. I think that's so cool.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  And it's really interesting. Sometimes it's about, you know, behaviour change of the person, but also sometimes we don't feel valuable because of the way that our society's set up. And so often you'll get that with, you know, new mums, that in in our particular society, new mums are not given the recognition or value

• 40:07Fearne Cotton?

  Support.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  That they deserve.

• 40:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  And and so they feel that way, not because there's something wrong in their own brains, or because they're getting anything wrong. They don't feel that way because there is no recognition coming at them. And it doesn't mean that job is not of value. It means that their feeling is a reflection of the world they're living in.

• 40:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Um. And so, yeah, I think it's really important that we don't turn it into, I'm getting it wrong, or it means that I'm doing stuff right. You know, the answer is sometimes action that you're not living in line with your values. And sometimes it's, the world is set up in an imperfect way.

• 40:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  That can be damaging to our mental health.

• 40:48Fearne Cotton?

  And also, I guess if somebody has repeatedly told you when you were younger, you're a piece of shit, you're not good at this, that that, you know, it's not true. But you've been, again, hardwired to believe so. And then that's a cha- a chance to go, oh, why do I believe it? It's because that teacher or that parent or that friend used to constantly berate me.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:09Fearne Cotton?

  And the work, I guess there is learning to, well, like, unlearn that.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And and just sort of learning to recognise by looking at it and doing that work, which of those things are an echo from the past? And therefore you're able to kind of let it pass. So it will always pop up, right? You know, it won't disappear. And it's a bit like, um, I don't know, let's say you smoked from the moment you were able to hold a cigarette. And then at age forty, you decided to change that and give it up. That urge to, you know, get a cigarette and and smoke it wouldn't just disappear after a couple of years. It would always be there, that this sort of the associations, the smells, the habits, they're always accessible in your brain because they're well laid down, right? They're well practised.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  But what you do is rather than make them disappear, you recognise what they are, that there's echo of the past and this past way of doing things or past way of thinking. And then you choose what to do with it, knowing the work that you've done to think about what this new cycle is you want to be doing instead. So.

• 42:14Fearne Cotton?

  It's empowering, like there's opportunity to change and to make your existence more peaceful, essentially, I think. When you're not berating yourself so much and you understand you're a person of value, that's mental peace, isn't it? Like, whenever I've been through any times of deep anxiety, it's because I've lost that peace. I feel it's everything's too jumbled, nothing makes sense. And to have, I think certainly as I've gotten older, mental peace is like one of my goals. It used to be make everything as exciting as possible, you know, like sort of adrenaline and all this kind of crazy stuff. And now I just want clarity and mental peace. Since I last saw you, you've also been through your own personal struggles and you were diagnosed

• 42:58Fearne Cotton?

  with breast cancer, which you've talked about on your channels because obviously is great level of connection you can have with your audience who have also been through something similar. Or had people in their family, their circle, undoubtedly sadly, who have been through a similar thing. What did you learn about yourself during that process? Knowing so much about how our minds work and psychology, what did you notice coming up for yourself?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that probably tested my preaching and the theoretical approach more than anything. And the, you know, I'm generally quite sort of private person and I'm not on socials sharing a lot of my personal life. But the way that it happened is, you know, I, I noticed this lump. I was about six weeks away from handing in the manuscript for Open Web. Loads of stuff going on, school things, da, da, da, da, you know, all this, you know, polishing everything up. And I actually had the thought, oh, because I'd had lumps and lumps before that been tested and I knew it was a stressful experience. I don't really have the headspace for this right now. Shall I wait until I hand the book in before I then go and get this sorted? Long story short, a few days later, I thought, actually, no, I'll call the G P.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  And I didn't get through the first day, didn't get an appointment and then nearly gave up again. But the next day, got an appointment and did it. And it turns out that, you know, time was my greatest weapon. Um, because we called it really early, which was amazing. And that, that made me think, how many other busy people are putting everything else in front of their own health? And, you know, I've read all the books, I know what I should be doing, and I know what I would advise other people to do. And yet I still had that thought of, maybe I'll put my own health on the back burner. And, um, yeah, so I kind of shared that it was happening and kind of, um, told everybody to,

• 44:48Speaker 01

  you know, do the right thing and prioritize your health because, um, if you don't, it will find a way of coming first eventually, right? So, uh, yeah, so, uh, touch wood, I'm, I'm all good now and, you know, had the surgery and stuff. But it was, it was a tough time and an interesting story. So when, when I got diagnosed, I was a week before handing in the manuscript. And then I was at that stage, I was just polishing off, I was reading through chapters and stuff. Um, there was this process, this sort of moment of limbo almost where we were waiting for further test results about, and that dictated what the surgery would be and stuff. So I didn't know really how serious this was or what the future held.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  And so I'm in complete fear and I just happened to be, I thought, I just get this book off my desk, get it gone. And then I can focus on this stuff. And I just happened to be reading through the chapter on when fear shows up. And the whole idea of the book is that when you're in the eye of the storm, it's a sort of letter from me to you to say, okay, if you're here, this is what you need to focus on to get through and out the other side. So it's that kind of, you know, for the people that don't have someone to put an arm around them and give them a good talking to, it's supposed to be that kind of a bit of talking to to get you through. So I'm reading this fit, this chapter on fear, when fear shows up. And I thought, well, that's not, that's not done it. I, I, that's not what I want to hear at all. And it was very gentle and very sort of calming stuff.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  But what I needed was strong and a step forward. And so I hit delete, rewrote the whole chapter there and then for myself. And, um, and it was much more, so the language in it is much more, a bit like a coach. So it's like, you're here, you can't change the fact that you're here.

• 46:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  And, and in it, I start to talk about the sort of the predator prey kind of mindset stuff. Because I felt like a rabbit in headlights. I felt like, oh, I don't know which way to turn. There's things coming at me and, and I'm just got to dodge threat whatever way I can. And I don't know if it's possible. And I didn't want to feel that, that felt overwhelming and awful. And knowing about the sort of predator mindset thing, I wanted to get into that place of seeing a goal, putting a step forward and actively moving towards it. So having a sense of agency that there was something I could do here. And, and so I did, I kind of, I, you know, sort of primed myself for that mindset in that chapter.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  And it, it helped me a lot. So every time I then read it through, I would follow up with something, an action that was in the service of my own rescue. So I couldn't change the situation. It was always going to be rough. But, you know, I think after I wrote that chapter, I then made several calls to people that I knew to find out names of surgeons, to get a second opinion to work, because there was sort of dispute over what kind of surgery I needed and stuff. And, and that changed again. I found an amazing surgeon and all this kind of, and it was only through having that mindset of, you know, this thing isn't coming after me. I'm coming after it. And it better watch out. And I'm, I'm kind of, you know, moving forward and, and taking my future into my own hands, that kind of feeling. And

• 48:03Speaker 01

  yeah, it helped me hugely. It doesn't mean there weren't dark moments of, you know, oh my gosh, how do we tell the kids? How do we do all this kind of stuff? But, uh, it felt fundamentally different.

• 48:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like that switch, because I've heard you talk about this before, the prey predator thing.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:18Fearne Cotton?

  And it's applicable to so many situations in life where we feel out of control. Like I'm the victim of something happening to me.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:26Fearne Cotton?

  And actually, for you to be able to find that empowerment, that autonomy to go, I'm going to turn the tables here. I've got more power than actually I'm, I can see and I'm, and I'm going to do something about it. I think that is so game changing for people in so many situations.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it's, you know, agency is, is one of the fundamentals, the sort of core thing about mental health is if you feel that you can't have any sense of agency or effect on your environment, you feel so out of control and overwhelmed and distressed, but as soon as you see an avenue for something that you can do.

• 49:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  To, in the very least, not make the situation worse and in the most make it better. Then your mind has a sort of a guide to follow. And, and so I think that's a lot of what happens in therapy, you know. A, a lot of the time when I was sort of working with probably young women mostly, who would come along feeling that I was going to fix them in some way or that all the things that life could throw at you. They didn't know how to deal with it or that they didn't believe they could cope. All that changed between, between the beginning of therapy and the end of therapy, life was still stressful for them and they still had lots of stuff to face. But they just realised they could trust themselves to do something with it and they, you know, that they felt more confident in their own capacity to

• 49:48Speaker 01

  step forward, not back and, and push through stuff and look after themselves. And so I think that kind of finding agency. And an old supervisor of mine used to say, push it where it moves. You know, a lot of the time we bang our heads against brick walls, kind of with distress or emotions and stuff like that. But if we find something, you know, one little door that opens that leads somewhere good, then, you know, go with what works. And, um, and it gives you such a sense of sort of control over things.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet.

• 50:21Speaker 05

  Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 50:37Speaker 05

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 50:48Speaker 05

  That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 50:51Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel.

• 50:53Speaker 06

  And Maisie Adam.

• 50:53Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 50:56Speaker 06

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 50:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 06

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 51:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too.

• 51:10Speaker 06

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 51:13Fearne Cotton?

  Num, num, num, num, num. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 51:18Speaker 06

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 51:24Fearne Cotton?

  In a situation like yours, or in other ones where you do feel like you're out of control initially, or there's just big feelings coming up, whether it's anxiety, sorrow, anger, I'm always confused as to how much we're meant to honor those feelings and lean into them versus go, I'm not going there because that's going to make me feel worse. Like, the whole theory of whatever you resist persists versus I'm choosing to not torture myself by constantly feeling sad, angry, anxious, whatever it might be. Which one is it?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  It's interesting, actually, because I'll talk to you about a thing that we kind of do in therapy about avoidance and stuff. But actually, since the cancer experience, I noticed that I... So, of course, as soon as I had my surgery, then it was ready to, like, you know, books being launched, tour, da, da, da, da. And I was just like, hit the ground running and moved on. And so, in some ways, the whole kind of processing of everything was a bit delayed for me. And I noticed that sort of health anxiety creeping in and things like that. And I also noticed those really wonderfully helpful and important posters that, you know, they're on the back of toilet doors that tell you to check your breasts. I hate them. I hate them because...

• 52:46Speaker 01

  They always catch me off guard when I'm doing something else. Well, I'm going to the low, but you know, like, um, they've got them in the ITV studios and stuff. And, and so if I'm focused on doing something or performing or, you know, working. And then something reminds me, remember that thing that happened, it could happen again. And those little things that kind of take you off guard, kind of have that huge sort of.

• 53:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  And so I notice in myself that I also didn't, some people are amazing when they have these kind of experiences. They then do massive things for charity and build loads of awareness and it becomes a massive thing. I couldn't touch any of that and I, and I felt terrible for it. But now I realise why, and it was because I, I just wanted to forget about it. And, and that, that was a sort of unconscious pushing away of the whole experience. I wanted to move on and, and be positive and all that. And it's when you start to become aware of the way that you're pushing things away or the way that you're not willing to be there.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  It's just an indication of probably need to at some point, you know, you probably need to just look at that.

• 53:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  And it doesn't mean you have to think of it all the time.

• 53:58Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Or that you have to do a big, you know, if I see a poster and it, it triggers something in me. I don't have to do it there and then.

• 54:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  But it just shows me that, wow, that, yeah, something to think about. And, and so we do this thing in therapy where we kind of, I won't do it because of the mic, but I'll often get like a folder. And, and I'll be on one side of it and the other person in therapy will be on the other side and we'll push against each other. And we'll imagine that that folder is all the crap they don't want to have, right? All the feelings, all the distress, all the things you're trying not to feel and think. And all day you're kind of pushing it away and you're trying to get on with what you're doing. And then I'll say, okay, now imagine that's the end of the session. And you're going to go about, about your day, but I'm going to be doing this all day. And you've got to try and keep me at bay. And the minute you let your guard down, the minute you, you get tired, you're going to drop your arm and it's going to come flying and hit you in the face.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  And that's when you get the overwhelm, right?

• 54:52Fearne Cotton?

  That's such a great visual of it.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if I've been trying not to think about cancer for a year and then I see a poster that that reminds me, then I'm going to feel overwhelmed because I've been pushing it away and I haven't, you know, done the work. But then we can't, what we do is we take the folder and we say, okay, instead of pushing against each other, this time you're just going to hold your hand here. And I place the folder on the hand. And we say, okay, now, you know, we'll, we'll end the session, you go about your day, but you've just got to carry it with you. And this time it's not in front of your face. So you can get on with your day and do your things. And you know, it's there. But when you choose to, you can look down at it, you can think about it, consider it, feel it, and then get back to your day again.

• 55:35Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  So there's a choice and there's an agency, but you can't have that choice and agency if, if you're focused on pushing it away all the time.

• 55:44Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Because then it resists. And it, and it come, you know, it, it needs to be felt and processed at some point. And kind of put in its place in your own mind and understood. And once you've done that, it feels more like this, that you're just taking it with you.

• 55:58Fearne Cotton?

  I love that visual. I, I've totally experienced that. I used to try and delete whole sections of my past. Press delete, goodbye. It doesn't exist anymore, gone. To the point where I can't remember certain things. Like I've like, my memories fucked from it. And actually, a lot of the therapy I've done has been looking at certain things properly and uncomfortably so.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:18Fearne Cotton?

  But I can now hold the folder, like I'm holding it. And it's, it's so, it's so relieving to be in that place. That's why I feel so lucky that I have access to therapy. Getting on to that conversation, we'd need another week of, you know, the issue for people that can't get to therapy and, and how systemically that's just a massive issue. We all know that. But I, I think if anyone out there can get access to it, feels like it might help them, bloody well do it. It can just be completely life changing.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:49Fearne Cotton?

  But I think everything you've just said there is so helpful for people that are wondering, but also are just carrying a heavy load or certainly trying to push something away. I just think that visual is. Is so brilliant. I never thought of it like that.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think for those people who don't have access to it, having a sort of openness to experience and a reflective approach to that, like, you know, journaling or something like that, writing stuff down. I used to do that before, before I really knew it was a thing that had loads of evidence behind it as being helpful. I would naturally, I guess, because I'm quite introverted. If I was sort of struggling with something or had lots in my head, I would kind of start journaling. And I, when things were okay, I would never keep a diary. So they're all full of terrible, awful things.

• 57:35Fearne Cotton?

  Your life story for like people in a thousand years, like this Dr. Julie had such a shit time.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Where are the good days? And, and you know, never felt like doing it on the good, but it's a, it's a release and it's a diffusion as well. You know, we're talking about the getting the separation. When you put everything that's screwed up in your head onto the page, suddenly it sort of unravels a bit and makes a bit more sense. And, and so if you don't have access to therapy, you can do that kind of thing. You just have to be really careful to keep it constructive.

• 58:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  So, you know, keeping that idea of having your best interests at heart and, because that's what a therapist or a friend would do is ensure that you're not just ruminating and going down and down and down.

• 58:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I've been doing it with my daughter before bed. She's got a little worry book and we write all her work because she gets quite anxious before she goes to sleep. So we do a little worry list every night and sometimes she wants me to look at it. Sometimes she doesn't. And it's just, I think she feels like, oh, she's kind of out of her head to an extent as well. And then I'm sort of learning stuff about her as we go. And it's actually, I mean, I should be doing the same, probably doing my own one with her, but it is, there's something so lovely about that. Just getting it on paper, out of you, slight separation again from it all.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:44Fearne Cotton?

  I can't believe we've been talking for an hour. Christ, I was literally thought, we've been maybe chatting for half an hour. I've just looked and it's been an hour. So there's, there's two things I need to ask you. And the first one is, we're making a happy place playlist and we're putting great songs on that make us just feel really brilliant. What would you put on the playlist?

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Oh. Um, something that drives my kids absolutely mad at me because I love, you know, if I'm trying to, if I'm cooking and like the sun's out and stuff, I will get the windows open and play, is it Corinne Bailey Rae?

• 59:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  A girl put your records on.

• 59:16Fearne Cotton?

  Put your records on.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Oh, God. And the kids are like, oh, God, Mum. And I'm like, so happy. Um, so, yeah, totally cheesy, but super fun.

• 59:22Fearne Cotton?

  That's a great song. I love it.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love it.

• 59:24Fearne Cotton?

  And Dr Julie, where is your happy place?

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Oh, at home with my babies and my animals and watching the sun. We get a good sunset over the field at home and, um, yeah, when you're there and you just think, everyone say, especially when the kids are in bed and I know they're all asleep and they're all safe, there's something about, oh, yes, we did it. We did another day.

• 59:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we did a day. I love that. Well, look, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. This has been massively helpful to me, let alone the listeners. So, thank you so much.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 59:55Fearne Cotton?

  Dr Julie, what a pleasure. Dr Julie's just one of those earth angels. You know, she's just like a very lovely, grounded human who has so much to offer, so much to give, which she so generously does on Instagram, time and time again. Her videos are so helpful, as are her bloody brilliant books. And I just love that chat. She's always got such interesting things to say and really clear ways of defining them. That's why I think I'm so drawn to her work. There's no mistaking what she's saying. And I think you'll agree, that stuff around affirmations was so fascinating. Also the stuff about the folder, holding the folder up, that's kind of totally changed me in ways. So clever, so brilliant.

• 1:00:40Fearne Cotton?

  Dr Julie's bestselling book, Open When, is available now in paperback. It's a really good one if you feel like you're in the eye of the storm and need to navigate overwhelm or self doubt. Right, let's catch up on Instagram. We are obviously on at Happy Place Official all the time. And while we're here, you know, we've got a whole special Instagram for Book Club, right? If you love books, you need to start following us. It's at Happy Place Book Club. We pick a book every single month and go with it. Also, we have our festivals. So follow us there at Happy Place Festivals. Come along. Come and do some yoga and eat nice food and come shopping and give me a hug. Do you want another one? Go on then.

• 1:01:21Fearne Cotton?

  We've also got at happyplace.market. That is where you can buy loads of gorgeous goodies from small brands. Most of them are UK brands. A lot of them are female owned and people who are super passionate about what they make. It's a lovely little marketplace. All right. Huge thanks again to Dr Julie and to you because you are bloody brilliant.

• 1:02:04Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios with studio engineering by Basil Oxtaby.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.gle/workspacewithGemini.

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