Pod Insights Happy Place Feel walked over? Mel Robbins on turning pain into personal power About this episode Do you feel deep injustice at how others treat you? Mel Robbins is an award-winning podcast host and best-selling author; she says if other people want to behave in a shitty way... let them!
In this chat with Fearne, Mel explains the difference between saying “let them”, and letting people walk all over you. She talks about how “let them” doesn’t make your problems disappear, but you’ll see them differently so they’re less distressing to you. The phrase will also make you feel more confident in your authentic self-expression.
Feeling victimised? Stop hoping you can change a bully’s behaviour. Mel also explains how to use the phrase “let me”. Let me recognise what I can change about the situation or change about how I respond. Remember you have the power to leave any dinner table or any message exchange at any point.
Plus, why you should listen to your jealousy; it’s telling you a lot about your desires and ambitions...
Mel’s best-selling book, The Let Them Theory, is out now.
If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like:
The Good Girl Rebellion https://pod.fo/e/2dc795
Estelle Bingham https://pod.fo/e/2c3bf2
TJ Power https://pod.fo/e/21a242
Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service.
Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/
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Transcript 12,357 words · 10 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
0:28 Fearne Cotton? Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that makes sure you feel in control of your own life. Today, I'm chatting to Mel Robbins.
0:38 Speaker 02 How do I stop focusing on other people and what they think, what they feel, what they do, and let them? Let them have their opinions, let them think what they want to think, let them do what they're going to do, let them be disappointed, let them misunderstand me, let them, let them, let them. And then let's take the power back and constantly cue ourselves, let me remind myself that there's one person whose happiness I'm in charge of, it's mine.
1:05 Fearne Cotton? Oh my God, do you know how excited I've been about this episode? I woke up today in the best bloody mood, knowing I was going to see Mel in real life. We've had quite an interesting little friendship, a very modern friendship. We met first on Zoom and we swapped numbers and we've been texting here and there and DMing over the years and I love following what she's doing on Instagram and listen to her podcast too. And just the thought of seeing her in real life, and it did not disappoint, she bounded into the studio wearing the most exceptional, I'm going to call them clogs I've ever seen, these sorts of amazing platform clogs, and she's given me the website, I'm obviously going to copy and buy them immediately.
1:45 Fearne Cotton? And we just got stuck into this bloody great chat and I love her even more than I already did. How is that humanly possible? So let's talk about Mel, what a legend she is. I definitely feel like I've referenced her a lot in previous Happy Place episodes. Many things that she said the first time we spoke resonated and I've applied it to many parts of my life. And actually, I've mentioned her more recently because of her let them mantra, which has really struck a chord with me. Mel is one of the most sought after experts in mindset, behaviour change and life improvement. Her new book is called The Let Them Theory. This book and the chat we're about to have is all about how to stop wasting energy on
2:28 Fearne Cotton? what you can't control and start focusing on what truly matters. As I say, I really latched on to the idea when I first heard it because I know how much energy I have wasted, how much anger I have felt, frustration, injustice, due to not being able to change how other people are acting. So this book and the mantra has taught me a hell of a lot. There's loads more in this chat too. Having opinions about how other people are behaving, protecting your own time and energy, and what jealousy might be telling you. I think you're gonna love it.
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5:08 Fearne Cotton? My chat with Mel is coming right up, I promise, but I just thought I'd give those of you who haven't got your tickets to the Happy Place Festival yet, a little bit of a nudge. We're in Gunnersbury Park on the 12th and 13th of July, and Tatten Park on the 30th and 31st of August. Davina McCall's gonna be there, yes. So is Vogue Williams, Scott Thomas, Dame Kelly Holmes, and obviously, there's gonna be so many workshops that you can be a part of. Breathwork, meditation, arts and crafts. I promise, you're gonna love it so much. Go and grab your tickets at happyplacefestival.com. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.
6:07 Fearne Cotton? Mel! Oh my gosh, we're in person! We're in real life! The last time we spoke was on Zoom. Don't like Zoom. But we're in actual real life. It was 2021, the last time I spoke to you. It has been four years. It's ridiculous. What is it about...
6:22 Speaker 02 I I I'm about to say it, but I think it's true for everybody. I think in particular, when you have kids.
6:28 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
6:29 Speaker 02 The time goes like that. There's something about how quickly time goes. I can't believe it's four years.
6:34 Fearne Cotton? But weirdly, 2021 feels like it was a year ago. It's sort of like, what, this is just a weird time warp that we're in. It's really strange, but I am thrilled you're here. You've literally just flown in. How are you feeling? I hate the feeling of getting off a plane and having to do things.
6:48 Speaker 02 Well, I thought I was gonna take a nap because I had a couple hours and then I just got checked into the hotel and was so excited to see you that I couldn't do fuck all. So I was just like, all right. And so then I took a cold shower to try to wake me up.
7:00 Fearne Cotton? That's the best.
7:01 Speaker 02 Yes, and now I'm here.
7:02 Fearne Cotton? I'm so glad. One thing that is a huge difference since I last spoke to you is that now half the planet walks around with let them tattooed on their body somewhere. That must be wild.
7:15 Speaker 02 Um, the success of this book and the way that this theory has resonated with people around the world is not only wild, but I am so excited that it has resonated profoundly with people around the world, particularly in this moment in time where I think everybody feels stressed out and overwhelmed and the world feels like it's spinning out of control regardless of where you live. Everybody's got somebody in their life that they're worried about. Most of us are concerned about AI and feeling redundant in our jobs. And so to see a simple tool that helps remind you of what's in your
7:56 Speaker 02 control and what's not, be tattooed on people's bodies, be spreading around the world, it's just, it's really cool.
8:05 Fearne Cotton? How would you say this theory has changed your life specifically? I mean, you give some great anecdotal evidence of how it's changed your life. What would you say has been the most sort of profound change for you applying it?
8:18 Speaker 02 Oh, my God. I I I feel that. That's a great question because there's so many ways in which the let them theory and saying let them and let me has changed my life. But if I had to encapsulate it in one broad stroke, it would be that I was living my life backwards.
8:37 Fearne Cotton? How so?
8:38 Speaker 02 Well, I, and I think everybody, and that's why this theory has exploded, is that you don't realize that for your entire life, the default is to think first about others, to give more weight to other people's moods and opinions and feelings and expectations than you give to your own. And so for the first 54 years of my life, I didn't realize the extent to which the default was thinking about how someone else might react. And I can give you a really just subtle example that we can all relate to, and then we can unpack all the various ways that this thing has changed my relationships, changed the
9:20 Speaker 02 level of stress that I feel, just changed the way I go about my day to day life. But very, very simple example everybody can relate to is if you take out your favorite social media platform, right? Let's say you take out Instagram, and you're going to put up a photo of something that happened this weekend, something like, we're not even going to talk about a photo that's about your business. You're just going to share about your personal life. As you go and you try to figure out what photo you're going to post, you start sorting through them, and you're thinking, oh, this one, no, that one, is that too much? And then you get the photo, and then you put a filter on, and then you go to write the caption, and as you write the caption, you write a little, and then you backspace, and then you think, should I put an emoji? And then you start wondering,
10:02 Speaker 02 like, if the caption is a little too this or too that. And then, a lot of times, you exhaust yourself, so you hit draft.
10:08 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
10:09 Speaker 02 And what's going on in that moment? What's going on is, as you are simply trying to express yourself, the default is you're thinking, what are other people going to think about this? What are they going to do in response? Are people going to like it? Are they going to unfollow me? Are they going to gossip about me? Are they going to roll their eyes at me? And that's a subtle example of how you just gave weight to other people's reactions and thoughts, which are something you'll never be able to control. You just gave it weight, and then used that concern
10:47 Speaker 02 To edit yourself and to question yourself. And it is everywhere in your life.
10:51 Fearne Cotton? What's the foundation of that? Is it because we don't want to be disliked?
10:54 Speaker 02 I think the foundation, you know, there's over 57 world renowned experts, many of whom you've had on this podcast that I interviewed for this particular book and in building this case. And, you know, if you want to go super, super, super deep, the foundation of it is built in us in childhood. Because human beings cannot actually survive unless another human being takes care of you.
11:21 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
11:21 Speaker 02 And so through no fault of our own, as little kids, you are hardwired to be connected to the adults around you. And so you're constantly monitoring, is mom or dad in a bad mood? Like, what's going on? How do I get their attention? And then, of course, as you get older and you go into school, now the primary driver is, I got to bond with friends. And so you're constantly looking outside yourself for validation, that you're worthy, that you're likeable, that, you know, you're safe. And that's where it begins.
11:52 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
11:53 Speaker 02 But nobody tells you, you know, when you're 18, 19, 20, I think we all know, don't care what people think. Oh, don't give a fuck about this. But knowing that and talking about it is completely different than teaching yourself how to care more about what you think and teaching yourself how to live your life in a way that makes you proud, rather than constantly looking at other people for validation. And so the let them theory for me taught me how to do that. How do I stop focusing on other people and what they think, what they feel, what they do? And let them, let them have their opinions, let them think what they want to think, let them do what they're going to do, let them be disappointed, let them misunderstand me. Let them, let them, let them.
12:37 Speaker 02 And then let's take the power back and constantly cue ourselves, let me remind myself that there's one person whose happiness I'm in charge of. It's mine. And let me remind myself, in any given situation, this kind of blew my mind when you really start to unpack it. There's only three things in life you can control, only three. It's what you think about what's happening. It's what you do or don't do. And it's what you do in response to the feelings that rise up. That's it. The one thing you can never control is another human being. And yet you spend so much time and energy and give so much power to trying to control other people. And there's an easier way to go through life. Just let them, let them be who they are.
13:20 Fearne Cotton? It's so stressful. To get into the real sort of nuance of this topic, what's the difference between let them and having someone walk all over you? Because I think that is a reaction many people have to this subject matter is, I just can't let them do this and that and do, you know, live however they want to live. It's impacting me. What's the difference between let them and someone walking all over you?
13:42 Speaker 02 Well, it's a great question. If somebody's walking all over you, they're already doing it. And you're probably making up a lot of stories in your mind about why, or you're explaining it away. Oh, they're in a bad mood. This is just how they are. Da, da, da, da. I deserve this. And so one of the interesting things about let them is let them is not you saying, let them disrespect me, let them walk all over me. Let them's a boundary. When you say let them, what you're actually doing is you are cueing yourself that this other human being's behavior is out of my control and it is data and it is a sign of what they think about me
14:26 Speaker 02 and how they prioritize me. And so when I say let them, I'm not letting them do anything. I am forcing myself to see things as they are. It's not excusing away behavior. It is recognizing the truth of the behavior. And so if you're in a situation, whether you have a parent who's got a narcissistic personality style, or you have a partner who is, you know, talks to you in a way that's very disrespectful, they've probably been doing it for a long time. That's not to say that you're at fault. I think what happens in relationships is it's very easy on social media to be like, oh, just stop talking to them. Oh, just do this. Oh, just cut them out. For most of us, the most challenging people we have in our life were related to.
15:10 Speaker 02 And so let them is a boundary that you create between you and other people, where you are forcing yourself to recognize that another person's actions are the truth about who they are, how they feel about you. And most of the time, what you're going to notice when you start to say let them, because you're not allowing it, you're recognizing it. Yeah. And then you say, let me. Let me remind myself that changing that other person is something I will never be able to do. Let me remind myself, I get to choose what I think about this. I get to choose what I do or don't do. And for many of us, it may mean when you start to say let them and you realize, oh,
15:55 Speaker 02 wait a minute. Every time I reach out to my siblings, they don't actually reach out back. Let them. It stings, but you're now recognizing that you're the person that's making the effort. The let me part is where you get your power, though, because you get to decide what you're going to do now that you recognize the dynamic. And for some of us, you may decide, you know, I just realized that I'm the person in my family that's the glue. Yeah. That's the role that I play. And instead of like holding all this resentment and having a very transactional kind of tit for tat, sort of, I'm keeping track of who's doing what, I'm just going to let me embrace the fact that this is who I am. One of my values is family.
16:39 Speaker 02 I'm a big planner. I'm the fun one. And I'm going to stop expecting them to reach back out to me. And I'm going to just let them be who they are, but I'm going to let me be responsible for creating the kind of relationships I want to create with people. And sometimes when you say let them and you recognize how somebody is treating you and whether or not they're treating you with respect, or whether or not it's reciprocal, or whether or not they have good energy, or they're putting the time in. You'll recognize this is no longer a relationship that really serves me. So let me just spend a little less time with this person.
17:16 Fearne Cotton? Well, this is the thing, you know, applying the let them theory means that people might disappear from your life.
17:23 Speaker 02 Oh, they will.
17:24 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
17:25 Speaker 02 They will.
17:25 Fearne Cotton? And that's, you know, perhaps a hard thing to stomach, but perhaps beneficial for everybody. Because I think the example you've just given there, all of us will have been dealt with silent treatment. And it's horrible. And there is an element of injustice there, I guess, as well. And I think actually, many of the outcomes of the let them theory could end, before you actually land on acceptance, in a feeling of injustice. What do we do with that feeling? Because it's horrible. You're like going out of your mind. You know, it's not, it's not fair. You know, what do you do in that circumstance?
17:58 Speaker 02 Well, so, you know, at the heart of this theory, what this, what the let them theory is really about is it's about control. It's about power. And it's also about relationships. And a lot of us spend a lot of time and energy trying to control other people. We have huge opinions about how other people should behave and how they shouldn't behave. And the revelation for me is the more that I said let them, whether it's the fact that they're doing, they're, you know, doing a big construction project in the middle of a Monday morning commute, and you're backed up in traffic, and then you feel the stress rise up. I think we all agree, you can't control when the city of London is going to do their construction.
18:40 Fearne Cotton? I mean, it's like every day.
18:41 Speaker 02 Yes, you can't control what other drivers, so let them. And the reason why you say let them is because when you say let them, again, you're recognizing that traffic is out of my control. Therefore, if it's out of my control, why would I allow something that I cannot control to drain my most precious resource, which is my time and energy? And so when you start to say let them, you're going to recognize all day long, there are these tiny little things that happen. Long, you know, queues at the, at the grocery store, people that are annoying at work, a bazillion Zoom meetings that you have to attend. And the more you just say let them, let them, let them, not only do you separate yourself
19:25 Speaker 02 from all these things that used to stress you out, but you also are building this protection. Of your time and energy and you start to recognize that your time and energy really matters because you start to value it. And so I forgot what your question was.
19:41 Fearne Cotton? It's so irrelevant, my question.
19:43 Speaker 02 No, it's not.
19:44 Fearne Cotton? Because what you're saying is so, you've led my brain on to other things that I think are really, really important because that energy sapping quality of being stuck in a cycle of really hating someone, constantly bitching about someone in your head or otherwise to other people. A lot of this stuff is actually habitual. We're in a bad habit and we're sort of addicted to that feeling of their, you know, pointing fingers.
20:07 Speaker 02 Well, can I ask you a question?
20:08 Fearne Cotton? We all do it.
20:08 Speaker 02 Let me, let me ask you a question. So in a situation where someone else has wronged you, or somebody else is acting like a child and they are giving you the silent treatment because they're mad at you, if you get riled up and if you then try to reach out and smooth things over, even though you've done nothing wrong and they're acting like a child, or you spend weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks complaining about something, who actually has the power in that situation?
20:38 Fearne Cotton? They do.
20:39 Speaker 02 Correct.
20:40 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
20:41 Speaker 02 And you are disrespecting yourself because you're not valuing your own time and energy. Instead, you're giving so much power to this other person. How do we know? Because you're riled up.
20:56 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
20:57 Speaker 02 Because you're talking about them. Because you're rethinking everything that just happened.
21:03 Fearne Cotton? Hmm.
21:03 Speaker 02 Versus saying, let them be upset with me.
21:06 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
21:08 Speaker 02 I, I, I sent the one email and said, hey, you know, if you want to talk and I need to, let me know. Okay, let them respond or not respond.
21:15 Fearne Cotton? So I guess it's also, you know, the, the let me bit of it is yes, it's protecting your energy, but it's also, I guess, being accountable and noticing your own patterns of behavior, which we're all stuck in bad patterns and loops, you know, it's part of being a human being. But I think to have the self-awareness to go, oh shit, every time that person does this or doesn't do that thing, this is the reaction I have. And I do have the power to change that. We sort of forget the autonomy we've got.
21:41 Speaker 02 You, you, you really do. And again, if we come back to what is the let them theory about? It's about power and control. And two simple words, let them. Will reveal in an instant when you have power and when you don't.
21:54 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
21:54 Speaker 02 So anytime you're stressed out, frustrated, annoyed, hurt, upset, bothered, whatever, just say those two words, let them. And you'll see that 95% of the time, what's stressing you out is the behavior or the opinions of someone else.
22:10 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
22:11 Speaker 02 Or the fear of those things.
22:13 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
22:14 Speaker 02 And saying let them, again, helps you recognize, oh, here I go again. I'm worrying about and trying to control something I'll never be able to control. I mean, it is physically impossible to climb up inside someone else's head and actually guarantee that they will think a good thought about you.
22:35 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I've tried. It doesn't work.
22:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, me too. I've tried too. And, and, and we all know this is true because the people that you care about the most, like my husband pisses me off all the time. I have nasty, negative thoughts about him all the time. And, and here's the thing, though. Two things can be true at once.
22:53 Fearne Cotton? Yes.
22:54 Speaker 02 I can think, you know, that he's disgusting, or that he's annoying, or that he asks too many questions, or whatever else, and still be madly in love with him.
23:02 Fearne Cotton? Of course.
23:03 Speaker 02 But we don't consider that's true about other people. Your parents can be disappointed that you're not going to spend the holiday with them, and they can still love you. And you don't have to change your plans.
23:13 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
23:13 Speaker 02 And you don't have to beat yourself up.
23:16 Fearne Cotton? Let them be pissed off.
23:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, they're adults.
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25:54 Fearne Cotton? I mean, are there exceptions? Are there exceptions to let them? For example, let them bully me.
26:00 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
26:01 Fearne Cotton? How would that one work? Would you say, let them bully me? What's the...
26:04 Speaker 02 I think you do say let them, and here's why.
26:06 Fearne Cotton? Okay.
26:06 Speaker 02 Again, let them is not allowing, it's recognizing. Right? So when you say, let them, what you're acknowledging to yourself is that what these idiots at school are doing is something I can't control. And so focusing on them is not where my power is. My power is in the let me part. It's in, let me decide what I'm gonna do about this. Number one, I gotta tell somebody. Number two, I gotta do some research and figure out how I'm gonna support myself if I'm gonna continue to go into that work environment where I'm being bullied, or that school environment where I'm being bullied. Let me remind myself that if I'm in a place that's unsafe,
26:49 Speaker 02 whether it's a relationship or a job, I'm not stuck there, even though I feel like I'm stuck there. And so let them, again, isn't allowing, it's recognizing. And it's recognizing that trying to change the abuser keeps you in an abusive relationship. The only power you have when you are in a situation where you're being bullied at work, or bullied at school, or bullied in a relationship, is to change what you're doing, either by getting the hell out of there, or by seeking support, or changing, you know, like a lot of the world's leading experts on narcissism, in order to access their advice, and a lot of the advice,
27:32 Speaker 02 if you're in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, is to not engage. They call it gray rocking. And one of the things that keeps a lot of us stuck in these toxic cycles with somebody who has somewhat of a volatile or a very challenging, shall we say, personality, is the hope that they're gonna change.
27:52 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
27:53 Speaker 02 And what's happened in my life is when I say let them and I recognize, this is who this person is. This is how this person treats me. This is what they do when we talk about certain topics. This is what they're like when they drink. It forces me to recognize who I'm dealing with instead of gaslighting myself in some fantasy world that this person's going to magically change like some Disney movie. That's not happening. And so your power is not in expecting that other person to change, or even hoping they will. Your power is in demanding more of yourself and saying, let me ask myself, is this behavior attractive? Is this behavior acceptable in my life? Is this behavior something I need to protect myself from?
28:37 Speaker 02 Is this behavior that I need to go and tell some friends this is going on and get advice? Let me recognize that the only thing that changes this dynamic is if I change the way I think about it, or I change what I do in response to it, or I change how I respond to my feelings. Like when, you know, I've got somebody in my family who's very narcissistic due to their own childhood issues. Always been this way. And for years, I would go to anything where this person was going to be, just hoping. Can this be the year that we can all get along for a week? Can this be the year that there's no arguments? Can this be the year that, you know, nobody's like creating alliances? You know, can this be the year without any snarky comments?
29:22 Speaker 02 Why on earth would I think things are going to change?
29:24 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
29:25 Speaker 02 And so literally saying, let them.
29:28 Fearne Cotton? Weirdly, don't you think that when you take back the control?
29:31 Speaker 02 Yes.
29:32 Fearne Cotton? They often then do change.
29:34 Speaker 02 Yes.
29:34 Fearne Cotton? I mean.
29:35 Speaker 02 Yes, I'll tell you why.
29:36 Fearne Cotton? Yes.
29:36 Speaker 02 Because when you are, think about, think about the most challenging person in your extended family. And think about how as you're driving to the thing, whether it's a wedding or a holiday or whatever, and you're kind of bracing for it.
29:50 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
29:50 Speaker 02 You walk in, you're already bracing. You hope things are going to go better, and then things start to go sideways. And then you think you're trapped there. And then the same dynamic plays over and over. If you start using the let them theory and you say, just let them be who they are. They're not changing. Let them be who they are, let them be who they're not. Let me walk into every interaction with eyes wide open, recognizing this is just who this person is. And so instead of giving them power, I'm gonna like conserve my time and energy. I'm gonna remind myself that I can leave any dinner table, any text chain. I don't have to engage.
30:26 Fearne Cotton? Yep.
30:27 Speaker 02 Like when my energy is more chill, it just creates the space where you're not taking the bait.
30:33 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, it's like an energetic feeling. You can sense there's a shift. The, the one, you know, I, I can really see how I've incrementally applied let them completely accidentally. And through trial and error over the years, in the context, I guess I would use the word bullying. I used to feel really bullied by the British press at one point in my life.
30:55 Speaker 02 Well, they were bullying you.
30:56 Fearne Cotton? I mean, they're horrible. And I felt at that time like a complete victim. But the big shift for me was not only, you know, incrementally trying let them out before I even knew it was a thing. But by having my own back, because I think in that era, I assumed anything they said was completely true. So I conflated their opinions of me with my own.
31:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:20 Fearne Cotton? And I abandoned everything I knew about myself. So I, you know, I would, in, instead of thinking, well, I know that I'm knowledgeable in this area. Or this is my skill set. I'd go, yeah, I am fucking stupid. Yeah, I am an idiot. And I completely abandoned myself for their ideas. And then over the years, I sort of left certain jobs. So I was less involved in that kind of world. But actually, the biggest shift for me has been having my own back and going, no, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm good at. I know I'm not a terrible person. So what they're saying, yes, let them say whatever the fuck they wanna say. But I know myself, so I don't need to apply their opinion. That's been a big one for me.
32:00 Speaker 02 I wanna unpack this at a, in a greater detail, because I think what you're pointing at. Is something that is important for all of us to understand. So, the reason why the let them theory has exploded is, first of all, it's not a new idea. The theory itself is new, but this is Stoicism. This is detachment theory. This is radical acceptance. This is the serenity prayer. This is Buddhism, all applied in two words in a moment where you're stressed out or somebody's annoying you or like you're hurt about something. And so it's tapping into something that we know to be true. Okay. But the second reason why this works, and I think is really important to understand,
32:45 Speaker 02 is that I think we've all been in those things where like, you're like, well, I don't care what they think. Or I, I, I know that's not true about me. And so I'm just gonna... When you say the words let them, there's this really interesting psychological thing that happens that makes this thing powerful. Let them is not the same thing as saying, let it go. Let it go, I've never been able to let anything go. Same. Because, well, because it feels like defeat. Like if I were to just say, let it go, let the, you know, let the, you know, you can't control it. Just let it go. You'd be like, but I don't want to let, it's bothering you. Yeah. When you say let them, there's this superiority and this attitude that you have where you're like, I see that shit you're doing. I'm gonna just let you do that.
33:29 Speaker 02 Because I know that I'm not giving you any power. Yeah. So you go do your little thing over there. Yeah, that's a, if that's a completely different tone to let it go. Yes. And so when you say let them, whether it's your friends that go away for the weekend and they don't invite you and it stings, okay, it does sting. Let them, let them go away. That was one of your actual experiences. Yes, absolutely. Let them go away. And then you do the let me part. And after you kind of have the, you know, let them go away, let them go out to brunch, let them do that, you, you feel superior to the people that are frustrating you or making you upset. But then that superiority helps you detach from the emotion of hurt. So that's where the detachment theory piece comes in. But then you're gonna have to sit with it and go, okay, well, now what?
34:14 Speaker 02 It still hurts. Then you say the let me part. And there are times when you are gonna say, let me choose how I'm gonna respond to this. And in the situation that you're talking about, friends of mine went away and I just saw it on social media. And of course, I, I was bummed I wasn't invited. Yeah. And the let them part helped me detach. Let them go away. I mean, it's already happened, so it's not like I can do anything to change what happened. But what was interesting is when I started saying, let me. Let me choose what I want to think about this. Some of the things that come up immediately is, well, they can go away without me. Why do I have to be included in any? Aren't they allowed to have friends without me? And then the next part was, wait a minute.
34:59 Speaker 02 I'm responsible for my friendships. When's the last time I actually asked any of these people to do anything? When's the last time I hosted? When's the last time I invited people to go away for the weekend? And what you'll start to see, if you're like me, is that you may have a habit of just sort of expecting people to include you, and yet you're not really doing your part in terms of planning and including them. And then you may also be the kind of person that when you see other people do things without you and you start saying, let them, and then you do the let me part, you may recognize, wow, I actually include people all the time. I do make a lot of effort.
35:40 Speaker 02 So maybe I'm putting too much time and energy into chasing people that aren't returning it. And so let me be honest with myself. Maybe I do need to invest in different friendships. And so it depends. The response is going to depend on the situation, the timing of your life, like how emotional you are, how tired you are. But it does force you to see, I have a lot more power and a lot more options than I thought I did. I'll give you another example that's really important right now. So a lot of people are very concerned about getting laid off and redundancy and the economy. And if you're in a job where you feel layoffs are coming.
36:25 Speaker 02 Before the let them theory, you'd probably sit there like a sitting duck frozen. Using the let them theory, it's going to help you recognize what's in your control and what's not. So you say, let them, let them do layoffs. Let them lay me off if they're going to lay me off, even though it's not fair, even though I've been here a decade. Let them, let them, let them. Then you say the let me part. Okay, let me decide what do I want to do in response to what's happening right now? Layoffs haven't happened yet, but do I want to sit here and cross my fingers and hand all the power to my bosses? Or let me conserve my time and energy and work on my resume and start going out and interviewing so that I'm actually putting time and energy into creating the next thing
37:10 Speaker 02 versus sitting here gossiping and worrying and freaking out and feeling paralyzed?
37:15 Fearne Cotton? It's an amazing opportunity for not only accountability, but self-reflection. And so often, you know, we don't know we're in these habits of, whether it's gossiping or being in the victim, which again, we've all done. There's no shade or judgment from me on that one. We've all been in the place of it's not fair. I'm the victim of this. But I think it's an amazing opportunity to look at it. And I like the way earlier you even used the word data, because we are collating information all around us constantly. And it's up to us again as to how we use it, whether it's, as you say, you know, how much time we're putting into friendships versus what we're getting back. The same in the workplace. This is all information. And that seems to take the sting out of it a bit. It kind of cuts the emotional cord a little bit,
38:00 Fearne Cotton? thinking about it as data.
38:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, I love that. Another, another huge way that it's changed my life is comparison.
38:08 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, you talk about envy in the book and that's
38:10 Speaker 02 Oh, my God.
38:11 Fearne Cotton? A huge one. I mean, especially with the social media arena that we're all, whether we're on it or not, we know it's there. And the propensity to compare yourself is larger than ever.
38:24 Speaker 02 Yes.
38:24 Fearne Cotton? Envy is a huge topic.
38:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, one thing that's really important to understand about envy and jealousy is that it's impossible to be jealous of something that you don't want.
38:34 Fearne Cotton? Yes, we can all agree on that.
38:36 Speaker 02 Well, yeah, and I'll give you an example. If I see somebody that has the most beautiful penthouse in, I don't know, Madrid.
38:45 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
38:46 Speaker 02 I don't feel any jealousy at all. I don't want to live there.
38:49 Fearne Cotton? No.
38:51 Speaker 02 So I can look at that and basically go, that's fantastic for them.
38:56 Fearne Cotton? Good for you.
38:57 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly, exactly. And so, you know, I can look at throuples that are very happy and be like, not jealous at all.
39:04 Fearne Cotton? Not for me.
39:05 Speaker 02 Not for me.
39:05 Fearne Cotton? No, no.
39:06 Speaker 02 But, and the reason why is that jealousy and that emotion, it is tied to something deeply personal in you. And the reason why it comes out as jealousy is because you are blocking your desires with your insecurity and your inaction.
39:29 Fearne Cotton? It's telling you what you want.
39:30 Speaker 02 Yes. And so for, I didn't understand this. You know, when, when I would see you with your podcast or our buddy Stephen Bartlett, or Jay Shetty, or you know, Dr. Chatterjee, or Dr. Joel, like anybody with her, I'd be like, fuck, fuck, fuck, like she's, she's already got the happy place. I can't, like, I can't, she's, what am I gonna say that like, and, and the jealousy comes up and then you compare yourself.
39:55 Fearne Cotton? I am lolling that you've ever been jealous of me. This is too much. I need to make note of this.
39:58 Speaker 02 Oh, I'm serious. I'm serious. And so I, what's underneath jealousy is your dreams and goals and the things that you deeply desire for yourself bumping up against your own insecurity and inaction. And what will happen to you is that you will self-combust until you either just give up on your dreams, or you get so sick of yourself that you just start working on it. There's an easier way. See, I used to believe before the let them theory that there was a limited amount of success, a limited amount of podcasts.
40:39 Fearne Cotton? For you or for, you're talking generally, just out there, in the sphere?
40:42 Speaker 02 Limited amount of money, limited amount of success, limited amount of kitchen renovations. Like if your friend renovated her kitchen, now I can't. If she did the white cabinets, God knows, I can't do white cabinets. Like, like it's just all friendships. Oh, there's only a certain number of friends to go around. The let them theory taught me that other people can never block your way. You do that.
41:04 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
41:05 Speaker 02 Other people lead the way. And so when you say let them, like the next time you're scrolling on social media, or you see that your friend is, is easily getting pregnant and you're struggling with your partner. When you say let them, you're not tamping down kind of the fears and the nerves and the insecurity that you have. You're recognizing that the fact that somebody else is achieving this thing is evidence that it's possible, and it's possible for you too. And any of the energy that you throw into being envious, or jealous, or using somebody else's example, whether it's they're starting a
41:47 Speaker 02 YouTube channel, or they've written a book, or they've found love after divorce. So many of us make the mistake of going, it'll never be me. Things like that happen to Fern, but they don't happen for somebody like me. Things like that happen to other people, but they don't happen for somebody like me. And one of the coolest things to recognize about life is that when you let other people lead the way, when you let other people show you what's possible, you free yourself from this trap that you've put yourself in, where you've told yourself, well, if they have it, I can't. If they've done it, they've beat me to it, I'm too late. You literally remove all that, and then you come to the let me. Well, let me learn from your example. Let me study the
42:30 Speaker 02 formula that you used. Let me remind myself through my actions and my attitude, over time, might not happen in the amount of time I want it to, but over time, I can achieve something similar.
42:42 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I mean, I'm driven hugely by seeing what my peers are doing. And luckily, and I'm sure you've found this, the podcast world is bloody lovely. Everyone's so nice. I'm friends with Dr. Chatterjee, I'm friends with Elizabeth Day, I'm friends with Jake Humphrey. Like, we're all such great pals. And actually, when I see like, you know, there'll be a bit where I go, how did Elizabeth get that guest? And then I'm like, I need to do better. I need to reach out to more people. I need to think about my interviews in a bit more of a sort of technical fashion, or I'll just be obsessively listening to other people's interviews. And there might be a little bit of an undertone of envy, but it drives me hugely. I'm ambitious. I want to do better.
43:25 Speaker 02 That's what's underneath envy and jealousy, your own ambition. And having that flip in your mind.
43:32 Speaker 02 That wait a minute, this isn't me being petty. This is my ambition, trying to get my attention. And you're still going to have fear. It's still going to take a lot of work.
43:41 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
43:42 Speaker 02 But using let them and let me, it's helped me identify when I've made other people a problem. And they don't need to be.
43:50 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I mean, that's actually a really important point you've just made there is that with let them, it doesn't magic away the issue. It doesn't magic away the tricky person or the slight feeling of discomfort around envy. The problem's still there, you just see it differently.
44:07 Speaker 02 Correct, because you see what you can control. And the one thing in life you will never be able to control is what another human being does, says, feels, or believes.
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46:22 Fearne Cotton? What do you do with the discomfort? Because I mean, I've had to learn this fucking massively over the years with this job that I do. And I've done for the entirety of my adult life and a lot of my teen years is when other people don't like you. And often it can be, you know, for someone in the public eye, obviously it's very clear for everybody else to read and imbibe. It might be slightly different in your own life. It might even be more painful when you know it's people that actually know you who dislike you. What do you do? Because like we've said, the problem doesn't go. They will still gossip about you, spread shit about you, whatever. You can let them and you can still feel empowered that you know your side of the street's clean. You believe in yourself, yet it will be uncomfortable. How do you get through that discomfort?
47:07 Fearne Cotton? We're not trying to get rid of it because I think it is important that, you know, life is ups and downs, isn't it? It's light and shade. There's good bits, there's shit bits and everything in between. How do you personally deal with feeling deeply uncomfortable?
47:21 Speaker 02 It's an excellent question and you know, you've talked about being in the public eye, but everybody has had the experience where you walk into a job and you know, people don't like you there. Or your supervisor doesn't like you there. Or you have friends where you know they're gossiping or you feel insecure around them. And so when you say let them, let them misunderstand me, let them spread rumors around me. Again, you're not allowing it. You're recognizing that this is not something I can control and that's important. Then you come to the discomfort. Let me decide what I'm gonna do with this. And too often, what I used to do in the past is I would go on these sort of silent campaigns to win over people that don't like.
48:06 Speaker 02 Why would you do that?
48:07 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, why do you do that?
48:08 Speaker 02 Because now you've just given them power.
48:10 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
48:10 Speaker 02 The easier way to go through life is to let them have their opinions. Let them say what they're gonna say. And then let me, every day, remind myself what my job is. My job is to wake up, put one foot in front of the other, and live my life in a way where I'm proud of myself. Because I know my intentions, I know my values, and I know that I'm doing the best that I can to align the decisions that I make and the actions that I take against those things that make me proud of who I am. And it is a daily thing that you're gonna have to work on.
48:50 Speaker 02 Like, when somebody is attacking me, I just triple down on knowing who I am as a person. If it's really bad, I'll reach out to people that know me well, and I'll explain what's going on, and I'll get the reassurance. So that's a let me get the support that I need. Because if you're in a situation where you're going through a horrible breakup, and friends are siding with different people, and you can't believe that people are still friends with your ex, and you can't believe the garbage that they're spreading about you, and why are the... Let them. Let them, let them, let them. Because one of the things that is so true about life is that you wanna win this battle in the moment.
49:30 Speaker 02 But over time, if you stay true to yourself, and just let me live in a way where I'm proud of myself, where I tell the truth, where I live according to my values, over time, it all comes out in the wash.
49:44 Fearne Cotton? It does.
49:44 Speaker 02 Over time, your behavior... Yes, your behavior just outlives all the swirling nonsense that happens in the moment. And so your example, over time...
49:58 Speaker 02 Is what has the power to change the way people see you. But first, you have to change how you see yourself. And you have to stop giving power to people who don't want to like you in the first place. And take that power back. Because you need it in order to keep navigating day to day through a storm like that.
50:21 Fearne Cotton? I think it must be imperative in this context to like yourself.
50:26 Speaker 02 I think that's something that you learn how to do every day.
50:29 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, because I think when you don't like yourself.
50:32 Speaker 02 Well, I didn't like myself for most of my life.
50:34 Fearne Cotton? Well, yeah, I, I, I agree. I, I didn't like, I, I loved you. I didn't like myself. For probably like a lot of my twenties, undulating, thirties, turning forty a few years ago was sort of like a landmark, really. And that's been a great change. But I think when you don't like yourself, it's of course so much easier to just give all the power to everyone else. Because you don't respect yourself.
50:57 Speaker 02 Well, and here's the thing. How can you like yourself if the default is to give more weight to what other people think about you?
51:06 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
51:07 Speaker 02 Than the weight that you give to what you think about you. I don't think anybody knows how to like themselves because I think we've all been trained to default to making sure everyone else is happy. Making sure we fit in, making sure, you know, everybody's expectations are met. Nobody's disappointed. And so if all of the power is going out there to determine whether or not you're good with you. How are you going to like yourself? Because you don't hold the keys to that.
51:35 Fearne Cotton? What's helped you like yourself? What's, what's got you to a good place of self compassion, would you say?
51:39 Speaker 02 Uh, this has been revelatory.
51:41 Fearne Cotton? Really?
51:42 Speaker 02 Well, yeah, because it, in seeing how much time and energy you put in to try and change everybody else. This is why you're exhausted.
51:52 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
51:53 Speaker 02 Like if all day long, the world is stressing you out and other people stressing out you out. And you believe that getting through the day is about making sure people are happy. And you're doing a good job according to everybody else. No wonder you have no time for yourself. No wonder you're absolutely exhausted at the end of the day. When you flip it and you let other people be who they are and who they're not. You give them grace, give them the space and the dignity of their own experience. Doesn't mean you're a narcissistic, selfish jerk. You still show up and support people.
52:24 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
52:24 Speaker 02 You're just not dying on the sword over it. You now have conserved the time and energy that you need to do some of the things that really make you feel good about yourself, whether that's getting up and moving your body or not drinking as much as you know you used to drink because you were so stressed out about work. I don't know, it's just, I feel like I didn't realize how much of my life was organized around trying to change other people, trying to control what they think and feel, trying to make everybody happy. And the result is I wasn't happy and I was stressed out and I was tired and...
53:03 Fearne Cotton? Do you think it also, noticing other people's behavior and giving them the space to be them and do them, does it subsequently allow you to give yourself a bit of a break? Because I think the other thing we're all trying to do is be perfect humans. I never go wrong, I never have mishaps, I never make mistakes, I do everything perfectly. We're all driving ourselves mad trying to be perfect humans. But actually, when we go, "Okay, let that person be a bit of an asshole," or "Let them have a tantrum," actually, in turn, we might just forgive ourselves a bit more easily when we fuck up.
53:35 Speaker 02 Of course.
53:36 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
53:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, and the other thing that happened is, you know, I don't know about you, but I've always wanted to be closer to people in my life. You know, I talk about this with my daughter Sawyer and my daughter Kendall, but Sawyer wrote the Let Them Theory book with me. We just kind of had this relationship where we loved each other, but there was just this sort of, I don't know, like, why was there tension? Why is it that when I was trying to be close, she's super annoyed? Like, you know, just like this mismatch thing?
54:05 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
54:05 Speaker 02 And the beauty of the Let Them Theory, because when you start saying "let them," you're going to think that this is sort of about not caring. It's actually the opposite. When you say "let them be who they are and let them be who they're not," especially with adult children, especially with your spouse, especially with your parents and your closest friends, it forces you...
54:33 Speaker 02 To create space to let the other person be who they are and who they're not. And that means you operate with a level of acceptance.
54:43 Fearne Cotton? Yes.
54:44 Speaker 02 And what I also noticed when I started saying, let them. Because, you know, let's be honest. I think the reason why we all have families is because it teaches you how to love people you hate sometimes. And when teenagers come downstairs and they're crappy mood.
55:02 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
55:03 Speaker 02 Let them. You don't have to fix it.
55:04 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
55:05 Speaker 02 Give them the space.
55:06 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
55:07 Speaker 02 To feel what they're feeling.
55:08 Fearne Cotton? I mean, parenting, it's an absolute minefield. You know, like the teenage stuff, so complicated. But I loved your points on even with little children. The let them theory again is nuanced because you're not going, oh, just let them have the bloody ice cream that they're begging for. No, it's saying, I'm sticking to no, let them freak out and have a big, you know, turmoil and all these big emotions, let them experience that.
55:36 Speaker 02 Yeah. And then let me comfort them through it. There's actually a really amazing parenting guide that you can download for free. That was written by Dr. Stuart Ablon at Mass General Brigham, the number one research hospital in the world. He's a professor at Harvard Medical School doing psychology and psychiatry for kids and young adults. And has been running a program called Think Kids for 30 years. So he wrote the parenting guide that you can download in the back of the book.
56:05 Fearne Cotton? So helpful.
56:06 Speaker 02 He basically said, the way that he thinks about the let them theory is he wants you to let them lead the way. Your kids are smarter than you know.
56:18 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
56:18 Speaker 02 Your kids are smarter than you think. If they're struggling in school, they know they are. They don't need you riding their ass on it. They're already feeling a lot of shame. And so he advises that as a parent, it's not that you're going to let them just flounder. You're going to let them lead the way in terms of how they want to address it. And the let me part is, let me approach this as a parent by asking you.
56:47 Speaker 02 Have you thought about what you wanted to do about the situation with this kid at school? Have you thought about like what you want to do about your grades? Have you thought about the fact that you got cut from the team and what you might want to do? And can I offer any support? Have you thought about how I might be able to support you? This is all they think about.
57:05 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
57:06 Speaker 02 And so when you are with them as a parent, and he has this visual where with kids in particular, you're going to, instead of bulldozing the way and telling them what to do, you're going to let them have the dignity of their own experience, but the let me part is with my arm around your shoulder, but I'm going to let you lead the way by asking you things like, have you thought about how you might want to do? You thought about whether or not you want to go to university?
57:36 Fearne Cotton? It's a lovely way of doing it.
57:38 Speaker 02 Very much so, because then your kids feel empowered.
57:41 Fearne Cotton? Yeah. And heard.
57:43 Speaker 02 And heard. And obviously, if it's a dangerous situation, you're going to step in and be the parent.
57:47 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, of course.
57:48 Speaker 02 But in these nuanced things that we, the friend drama, the lack of motivation at school, not eating healthy, these are all things where you can take a cue from your kids and you can also give them a cue that you're not here to bulldoze them, you're here with them and you're going to let them feel empowered to lead the way in terms of the next step.
58:12 Fearne Cotton? What do you think the cost of not applying this theory is on our lives?
58:18 Speaker 02 Happiness, stress, anxiety, lost dreams, everything. Because your entire experience of life is a function of how you spend your time and what you pour your energy into. And for your entire life before the let them theory, you have given all of that power to other people's opinions, moods, happiness, expectations. You have made it your job to change people, you have made it your job to make people happy, you have made it your job to make sure everybody else is okay, and in the process, you have stressed yourself out, you have driven yourself into the ground, you have forgotten what makes you happy.
58:57 Speaker 02 And you are feeling insecure and anxious because you've given all this power to something you can't control. I mean, any psychologist will tell you, if you, if you focus on shit you can't control, you're the one who's stressed out. And so the cost is the life that you actually could be living. And these two words, let them, and then the two words, let me, just show you those moments where, oh, I'm focused on something I can't control again. Let me take my power back and let me decide what I'm gonna do in response to this.
59:27 Fearne Cotton? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a huge payoff if we're not really thinking about this stuff quite seriously and just giving it a go, because this will be alien to so many people. I'm one of them in areas of my life. You know, I have found that very challenging, but it doesn't mean it's impossible. It's just trial and error, giving it a go. You might feel uncomfortable if you say no to somebody or you set a boundary, but it's not impossible.
59:50 Speaker 02 Well, and what's amazing is the simplest way that people start using it is just any time you feel slightly stressed or frustrated. That's it.
59:59 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:00:00 Speaker 02 Or annoyed.
1:00:01 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:00:01 Speaker 02 Just say, let them. And the shocking thing is, after just hearing our conversation today, you don't need to buy the book. You don't, you don't, you don't. You, you've got the theory now.
1:00:13 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:00:13 Speaker 02 And here's what's gonna startle you. You will say, let them 23 times today.
1:00:20 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:00:20 Speaker 02 Because other people are really fucking annoying.
1:00:22 Fearne Cotton? [laughing]
1:00:23 Speaker 02 And frustrating and because you can't control them.
1:00:26 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:00:27 Speaker 02 And the more you say, let them, the first week, all you're gonna do is say, let them. You're not gonna say, let me part. You're just gonna say, let them, because you're starting to teach yourself how to recognize how often the world seeps in to you. How often you cross the line and try to change other people or get frustrated by other people. And so just for a week, just do the let them part, and you'll start to notice something you've never seen.
1:00:56 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:00:57 Speaker 02 Which is how much power you've given to the world and other people.
1:00:59 Fearne Cotton? It's exciting.
1:01:01 Speaker 02 It's, it's like game changing shit. I think even if you're the sort of person that is so, you know, I, I had a period certainly where I didn't wanna go out, I didn't wanna socialize because I was so...
1:01:11 Fearne Cotton? Overly focused, hyper focused on what other people would think of me. So it felt easy to stay at home where I'm just with my cats. They're not going to fucking judge me like great. I'd just be with them the whole time. Whereas actually this opens things up. This makes your life bigger because you can go into a situation, a social circle, and you can still feel slightly uncomfortable or like you might be judged, but.
1:01:30 Speaker 02 You will be judged. Here's the thing, you will be. You will be and let them.
1:01:34 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:01:35 Speaker 02 Like, and so the thing is, is like, people will gossip about it. People are going to misunderstand you. Let them.
1:01:40 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:01:40 Speaker 02 Let them, let them, let them. Because again, you're recognizing you can't control what anyone thinks. I mean, you know, you can put on the best outfit you've ever seen and walk downstairs and your family be like, you look great. And then you walk out and your family turns to each other, she looks like shit. I can't believe she's going outside like that. You can't control what other people are going to say about it. Just let them.
1:02:03 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:02:04 Speaker 02 And then focus on operating in a way where you like yourself, where you know your intentions. And over time, just something miraculous happens. You just start to actually feel like yourself.
1:02:19 Fearne Cotton? Yeah. Oh, what a gift. That's the biggest gift.
1:02:21 Speaker 02 It's the biggest gift. And you also said it, it frees, it makes your world bigger because your world becomes very small when you give so much power to other people. I mean, just think about how sad it is that the power that you gave to other people's opinions kept you from fully enjoying and experiencing your life.
1:02:45 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:02:46 Speaker 02 I can give you another example. My daughter, who I wrote this book with, Sawyer, had, ever since she was a little girl, had dreamed of going backpacking solo through Asia. All through university, she worked. She saved money for seven years. She had the money and decided, I'm not going to go because I should really get a job after college, right? So then she works for this big cybersecurity firm for three years, full time. She's got the money. She's stalking people online that are somehow traveling and paying for it. She has the itinerary. She's been planning these things for decades. You know, people our age are like, go.
1:03:23 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it now before you have kids.
1:03:27 Speaker 02 The reason she was holding herself back from pursuing something she knew she wanted to do and had the money to do and was because a future employer might see a blip in the resume and not hire her. Do you know how sad it is to know what you want in life? And hand that much power to a person you have not met at some point in the future, who may or may not ever even think those things?
1:03:53 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:03:54 Speaker 02 And we all do it.
1:03:55 Fearne Cotton? Of course.
1:03:56 Speaker 02 And so when you said learning to say let them and recognizing when you give power to other people's opinions or moods or whatever, you are shrinking your life and the possibilities.
1:04:09 Fearne Cotton? Yeah.
1:04:10 Speaker 02 And when you constantly say let other people think what they want, do what they want, and let me live the life I want, your life is going to get better and bigger.
1:04:18 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, isn't that a joy? It's the joy of joys. Hey Mel, I would love to know where your happy place is.
1:04:26 Speaker 02 My happy place is right outside my kitchen. I live in southern Vermont and we live on this mountain.
1:04:35 Fearne Cotton? I've not been to Vermont, I'd love to go.
1:04:37 Speaker 02 It is, it's, I live in what's called the Green Mountains.
1:04:41 Fearne Cotton? I mean, I've seen on your Instagram, it's heaven.
1:04:43 Speaker 02 Here, like here in London, like we get as much rain as you guys. I feel like it comes, it hits Vermont and then we send it right across the pond to you guys. It's been raining the entire month. But it is, I literally live on this mountain in a town of a couple thousand people. And I will take a cup of coffee and step out on this covered porch off my kitchen. And I have this straight shot down the valley where you can see about 140 miles.
1:05:13 Fearne Cotton? Wow.
1:05:13 Speaker 02 And that is 1,000% my happy place. Like, I feel like I'm just in heaven.
1:05:19 Fearne Cotton? Yeah, I get that. I just dream of a porch, like it's such an American dream thing. I just want a porch more than anything.
1:05:25 Speaker 02 Well, there, everywhere in London, people have porches, it's on the front of the house.
1:05:29 Fearne Cotton? Well, it's just like a teeny few steps.
1:05:31 Speaker 02 You can put a chair there.
1:05:32 Fearne Cotton? Americans have like around the whole fucking house, like a whole thing with rocking chairs and, oh, that's the dream.
1:05:40 Speaker 02 Yes, it's pretty nice.
1:05:42 Fearne Cotton? Well, I cannot thank you enough. I have enjoyed every second of spending time with you. And I have already said let them about a million times since reading this book. So again, Thank you for motivating all of us in the right direction. Mel, you are a dream. Thank you.
1:05:59 Speaker 02 You're amazing.
1:06:00 Fearne Cotton? Thank you.
1:06:02 Fearne Cotton? Ah, bloody hell. I feel like I've had the most intense, yet amazing, free therapy session. Mel, I just love you. Everything that Mel said is still percolating. I'm just going to let it sit there, marinating, doing its thing, so I can apply let them to as many moments in my day and life as humanly possible. Mel's book, The Let Them Theory, is out now. I would love to hear about how and when you have used let them. Head to Instagram at Happy Place Official during the week and let us know. I'll be back here next week as always, but in the meantime, a huge thank you again to Mel, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you. And remember, let them.
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Previous Book Club Meets: Ambitious women and generational trauma, with Emily Henry Next How to stop saying “yes” when you mean “no”, with Natalie Lue Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated