How to break bad habits (w/ Edith Zimmerman)

Edith Zimmerman is a sketchbook cartoonist and writer of the Substack newsletter, Drawing Links. In this episode, she joins Chris to talk about honesty and self-discovery. From sharing her artwork to discussing her sobriety journey to falling in love with running, Edith and Chris explore how creativity and pursuing new activities can help you overcome personal challenges. This episode is part of the How to Be a Better Human Bonus Videos series. You can find the extended video companion on the TED YouTube Channel. Watch Edith draw and go running with Chris: https://youtu.be/1jWA3mE5o9Y Edith and Chris' interview: https://youtu.be/U_tOmuja0w8 Follow Host: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en | chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/) Guest: Edith Zimmerman (Instagram: @edithzimmermans http://edithzimmermans | Website: https://www.edithzimmerman.com/) Links https://drawinglinks.substack.com/ Stop Drinking Now by Allen Carr https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Drinking-Now-Allen-Carr/dp/184837982X Subscribe to TED Instagram:@ted https://www.instagram.com/ted/?hl=en YouTube:@TED https://www.youtube.com/@TED TikTok:@tedtoks https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoks?lang=en LinkedIn:@ted-conferences https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences Website:ted.com https://ted.com Podcasts:https://www.ted.com/podcaststed.com/podcasts http://ted.com/podcasts For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Duffy?

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• 1:18Chris Duffy?

  You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I am your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show, we are talking with the New Yorker cartoonist, writer, and artist Edith Zimmerman. We're talking about honesty, vulnerability, and creativity. Edith is one of my favorite artists because her work is so funny and personal, but also imaginative and approachable. Her style is distinct but impressionistic. And what she draws is often the topics that she's wrestling with in her day to day life. So things like sobriety, or parenting, or figuring out her creative and personal ambitions. It's all very relatable stuff. And this conversation is also part of our newest video series, which means that I got to go meet Edith in person at her house in upstate New York to record this interview. And we also filmed Edith and me running together,

• 2:03Chris Duffy?

  discussing what it was like for her to stop drinking, and her drawing a hilarious caricature of my face, all of which you can see online at Ted's YouTube channel. I think the video is really a fun and cool compliment because after you listen to this episode, you can see what Edith's art and what her life look like. So listen to this, then check out that video. But first, let's get started with Edith.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Well, I drew as a kid and then I took a bunch of art classes in college. I did a lot of portraiture. I want to say hyper-realistic, but it's just like trying to be regular realistically.

• 2:37Chris Duffy?

  Okay.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Nothing special. And they were all very careful. I really liked doing portraits with pencil. And there was just a lot of erasing and erasing and just like layering and layering and careful, careful, careful. And it was good. I was pretty good at it. I did like some really good portraits by the time I graduated. I was going to be a double major with English and studio art, but I didn't because I was like, am I going to like draw for a living? Which actually is sort of like, sounds like a joke now, but I think was like totally reasonable. So then when I started drawing again more recently, I started with pen because I didn't want to go back to the like extremely careful drawing, like, "Oh, I'm going to get it wrong." It's like, "I'm going to get it wrong right out of the bat." And that's just like, that's going to be okay. And I did these like really rudimentary stick figures.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  And like my drawing is still like bad. I mean, you've seen, sometimes they come out kind of charming. Sometimes they're just like absurdly bad. And you're just like, "Oh, sorry." You're like, "You're calling someone art? Okay, all right, that's cool." Yeah, that was sort of part of it. It's like, yeah, you just sort of like commit to the bit. I just started drawing stick figures or like ball heads with like little necks and like circle eyes. And then I just kept doing it and kept doing it and like slowly it evolved. And now I feel like I have a style, but it's like, none of it was conscious. It's just sort of like the way it comes out naturally and then plus like how you keep refining it.

• 4:01Chris Duffy?

  We're going to take a quick break, but we will be back with more from Edith in just a moment. Don't go anywhere.

• 4:17Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. We're talking with Edith Zimmerman about sobriety, creativity, and what it takes to create a life where you can be honest, vulnerable, and healthy.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Edith Zimmerman. I'm a writer and artist. I live in upstate New York, and I send out a newsletter called Drawing Links.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  So one thing that I, when I think about your work, is your work is really honest. And I'm curious, have you always been good at being honest with yourself?

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Um, no. I mean, that's a tricky question. This is like, you think I'm being really honest, right? Like, there's all these much deeper pockets. I'm like, geez, are we really getting into this? So in the stuff that you've probably read, like, a lot of the comics are pulled from my journal. So it's like, I wake up in the morning, and I do this journal every day. And I do comics about like, whatever from the day before stands out to me. And then like, weeks later, I'll go back and look at it and publish some of it. Because like, for whatever reason, I just like, want to share parts of it. Like, I still not really share, but it's like this compulsion, and I just want to share it. Because sometimes I'm like, oh, I got something just right, or I did, I don't know, something just worked. But I'm, I go through and I like, reread my own journal entries. And sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, this is really good. Or I like this.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Other times, I'm like, oh my god, I can't. This is horrible. So it like, sort of informs how I make journal entries in the future.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  It's really interesting, because I think that that's a lot of what I want to talk about. Right? It's like, kind of that compulsion to share. How do you find the line where between like, something where you're like, I want this to be out there versus something that you don't want to be out there?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Well, it feels very important that it be true, which I feel, which is like, the honesty therefore is like imperative. And sometimes there's stuff that's honest, but it's like ugly. And I'm like, I'm not going to share that. Or like, it doesn't make me look good. It's like, I want it to be real and to kind of come across as the way I experienced it. And to be flattering to other people. Because like, I'm never, I like, really try not to portray anybody in a negative light. Like, I'll, I'll kind of like rant privately, but I'll never, I try not to publish anything negative about anybody.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  So I journal every day, too. I have a friend who journals every day, and then they destroy what they journal. Like, I think they used to like, literally burn the pages that they wrote. And now they journal electronically and then just delete it.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  And they just delete?

• 6:33Speaker 02

  And they're like, a huge proponent of this.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  That's not how I do it.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Because I want to preserve the things that I'm experiencing, but... I sometimes wonder like, am I journaling for me? Or am I journaling for an audience? And who is that audience? And I wonder how that's changed it for you? If you literally are doing it for an audience sometimes.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's kind of like the crux of, well, one issue for me. I mean, so I started this journal. The journaling was just regular writing. And then I was starting a second journal where I was doing just drawings. And eventually, the writing and the drawings became like journal comics that I do every day. And every so often, I was like, man, these three panels came out in a way that I like really pleased me. And so I started a private Instagram account just to like my 23 friends that I like manually signed up for it. I was like, I just want to show you guys like this moment. Because I think I was like really lonely or something, or I was going through sort of a rough, whatever. Like, I just wanted to, they were just little snippets. It would just come out just right. Anyway, so I was sharing it on Instagram. And then that kind of snowballed.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  And eventually, I, like, I was letting anyone who knew me follow me if they requested it. And then I put all those comics in a newsletter instead of on Instagram. And it got recommended places, like other people were kind of promoting it. And then it started to get like bigger and bigger. I mean, it's not like huge or anything, but it got big enough. And then I was like, I'm going to charge money for it. This will be my job. I'm going to get, like, I'll support myself with my cartoons, like, this is a dream. And I just have to live my life and then write these little charming stories about it. And, but like the money stuff didn't really work out the way I thought it was going to. Because I had this like goal I wanted to hit. And then I just like, didn't get there in the time I thought I was going to get there.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  And also, like, I had a certain amount of savings that I was using to get to this place. And then it just like wasn't, it was really disappointing. And like meanwhile, like, this is my real life. Like, I'm sharing real stories from my life, but this, like, it sort of caught up with me. The way I visualize it is like, it sounds kind of cheesy, but it's like the tide. Like, you're kind of running with the water a little bit and like. Are you being real? Or are you making stuff up to share with people? Like, are you thinking about what people are gonna think when they see this? Or are you really just sharing your private thoughts with yourself in your journal? And it helped to have some distance between the two. But eventually, with this sort of first iteration of the newsletter, I found I was sitting down. I had like kind of run out of stories, but like I knew I was supposed to post something in my newsletter because there were people who were paying for it.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  And it's like, you know, you hear people being like, "Yeah, it's okay. It can come out whenever." Like, the people who are supporting you, they like, they just want to know they're supporting you. I'm like, "Yeah, but this is a product I'm creating." Like, I told people I was gonna send it like X amount of times a week, or once a week, or whatever. Like, I just haven't sent it for two weeks. Like, this is a problem. Anyway, and I'd be sitting down, like, okay, I have to write like a charming story about my life that people are gonna love. Like, they loved the one about the dog. Like, that one was cute. Like, so don't write about how you're mad at your husband, or don't write about like, or don't da-da-da. Anyway, so it just started to like, just was difficult. And I refunded everybody. I just like kind of shut off the newsletter and I refunded everybody and just like quit, kind of. And I kept doing the journal. I just like didn't publish for two years.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  And then, I mean, I was just doing it privately for myself. And then I restarted it last fall, just because I felt like there was some distance and I wanted to do it. And I had this whole new like business idea for myself, which was that I would not ask people to pay for the newsletter. I would instead use it as an advertising device for my other realm, like my greeting cards and my art prints. Because I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna take myself seriously as an artist. People will buy my art." Like, that's what I want. I don't want them to subscribe to my stories. I want them to buy my art because I'm an artist now. So, the version of the newsletter now is, I write the journal stuff, and then two months later, I look through it and I publish stuff.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  And that has seemed like enough of a cushion that I can maintain the integrity of just journaling for myself and kind of silence the voice that's like, "Well, what's gonna be a good story for your fans?" And I find myself like writing something, and it's like kind of, I'm like, "I could never publish this." Like, what's the point of even following this thread? It's like, "Well, it's important. I have to..." I have to just get this out. I have to like just write whatever comes out.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  It seems like there's these threads of like honesty and like creativity and then also vulnerability. And like figuring out what the right level of those each is for you, especially when something is public. Cause I, I think that like, even when you're describing like, I didn't feel like this was right. So I stopped doing it entirely. I refunded everyone. That's kind of, to me, like being honest with yourself. Like, this is how I'm feeling.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  And this is not sustainable. Have there been times in your life where you were, it was harder for you to be honest with yourself?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  The first thing that comes to mind is like, I drank really heavily for a really long time. And I was, um, I knew it was too much and a problem for me, but I was like, yeah, but like,

• 11:43Speaker 01

  it's the only thing I like, so I'm not gonna like stop drinking. It's like, even though it's clearly like ruining my life, it's also the only thing I enjoy doing. So like, what am I supposed to do here? I feel like I, maybe I come across as really honest, but I think there's been times in my life where there's just like entire situations that I can't even look at. And only later can I be like, okay, eventually I was able to like be honest about them, but in the moment, they're just like way too big. And I don't even know, like maybe I'm going through one of them now and I can't. Not to be like mysterious, but it's like sometimes you just can't even look at it. But anyway, so I was like a very, I don't know, like medium problematic drinker for like kind of a long time, like for probably like seven years I knew.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  I was like, this is not good, but like I can't really handle this right now, cause I'm just like not equipped. And then like one day I was, and then I stopped drinking.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  But you've also been really public about sobriety and also like about creating a space, not just for yourself, but for other people to write about sobriety and to talk about it.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  I write now, I do illustrations for a newsletter about sobriety and I've like published stories about sobriety.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  I just think like for myself, I also don't drink. And sometimes I feel like, uh, like it's hard to claim sobriety. Not because I drink or do drugs still, but it's like because I didn't have like a dramatic rock bottom moment. Like I feel like, like I don't drink and I like myself more. And there's all sorts of reasons why I am sober now. So sometimes I think it's like weird for me to claim it, but. All of it just to say, I think a big piece for me, though, was about like honesty. You don't like the way you feel and you don't like the things that you are doing and you are doing it anyway.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  That was the clarifying moment for me. It was like, what if you just were honest? You don't have to do this. I think everyone has a different relationship to like sobriety and self-control and honesty. What was your relationship with those things?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Alcohol is very obviously ruining my life. I mean, not that dramatically, but like, it wasn't like I was having car accidents and running up debt or something. It was just like, very slowly, my life was becoming incredibly repetitive. Nothing new was really happening that was meaningful. I just like felt gross. Like, I just kept doing the same thing every day. It's like the thing that I used to do. It's like, okay, you go out, you have drinks with friends. Like, who knows you're gonna meet? Like, who knows what's gonna happen? Like, who knows what funny thing you're gonna say? It's gonna be great. It's just like, it starts out like that, and then for me, it ended like, oh, I'm just like drinking like six glasses of wine alone at home.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  How did it get from there to there? The honesty part for me, I think, just came where I was like, well, yeah, that obviously is bad. But it's like, what else am I gonna, like, this is the only thing that's fun for me. And I was kinda just like holding these two things that, I'm like, I've gotta solve this incredibly difficult puzzle. Like, nobody else before me has dealt with something so challenging. Like, and then one day, I was like, no, it's not that hard. It's not the one thing I like. I think I'm just like willing to see what life is like without it. And I had this book that I had bought six months earlier that was like, kind of gives you a new perspective on drinking. And I read that thinking it was gonna suck. Like, the same day, I decided I didn't, I was like willing to try not drinking permanently.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  What was the book?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Uh, it's called, uh, Stop Drinking Now by Alan Carr.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  It's like, it sounds crazy, cause he also, he also wrote the book about how to stop smoking, and he also wrote the book about how to like stop using cocaine. Like, and he and his whole team have this suite of books about. But really, once you, if you decide to believe them, or if you become compelled enough to believe them. The crux is the same. It's like all these things that feel so special and private and mysterious. It's like, yeah, they're addictions and they're just habits. And if you just break the addiction, addiction meaning like your body's used to it. It's a habit, it's a little cycle. If you just like unravel it and feel excited about unraveling it, like you're giving yourself something special and new instead of you're taking away something you love. It's like, no, you're giving yourself a better gift. And it's like, okay, cool.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Like, because I don't think I would have responded to feeling like, okay, now Edith, you can't have this thing that everyone else gets to have. You have to like live in like a timeout for the rest of your life. It's like, no, I'm not gonna do that.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  But now it's like I get to be in the special place and all the people who are still drinking are in the like timeout.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Uh huh. I totally understand that. I mean, I think that like one of the hardest parts for me was like, I am a comedian. I mean, at the time I was like doing a lot of stand up and I would like be in places where part of-

• 16:27Speaker 01

  When did you stop drinking?

• 16:29Speaker 02

  I don't have like a clear date. Like it's been at least seven years, maybe more, but I'm like, it might be 10. I was often in these places where like some or often actually all of the pay was like drink tickets.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  So they're like, come to do a show and like as a result, you could take like five shots. And I was like, well, I don't want that. But I would just like end up where it was like four nights a week. And but I think the one of the hardest parts was figuring out like, what do I do?

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Because it's just like a very socially accepted thing. It's like, I have a drink in my hand, we're drinking together. Now it's like, do I drink soda every night? Like, that was like a really hard part for me.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  But I think it is true, at least it's true for me. I wonder if it's true for you, is that there actually was like quite a bit of like creativity and like art into like, what does my life look like without alcohol? As opposed to just being like, I do the same thing everyone else does.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  And I think also that could like really speak to people. Because a lot of times people are like, wow, I want to stop drinking, drinking's awesome. But framed in that way, it's like, oh yeah, I just like started doing what everyone else did. Until it was just like the only thing I did.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  But it also felt very much like it was my choice. I was on like this private romantic experience with this destructive boyfriend and like, oh my God. But it was really just like the same thing everyone else does. Yeah, life post-drinking is like, yeah, you have a lot more time. Like, what are you gonna do with it? And what am I gonna do with it? And what do I like to do? I mean, I've written about this a lot, so sometimes when I find myself like on my talking points, I feel like really obnoxious. So I've written about this and drawn about it many times. But like literally after I quit drinking, maybe even the next day or that same afternoon or something, or the week, I Googled like, "What do people do besides drink?"

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Kind of as a joke to myself, like, "The fuck is happening?" Because it wasn't, it was sort of like a humorless time. Where it's like, okay, like phase two. And there's no answers, right? Like, there's no answers. But actually, there like was a very boring answer that for me ended up being very real, which was like, there's like top 10 lists, like, "Go to a cafe," like, "Go to a museum." I'm like, "Am I really reading this right now?" And one was like, "Rediscover activities you enjoyed as a child." I'm like, "Yeah, right, of course." It's like, that's like for real. And I read about people who were like, "Yeah, I stopped drinking, then I like got back into basketball," or whatever, you know? Like, people, it's like, we liked it. Like, when we're kids, we don't drink. You know, and we find a way to enjoy the world.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  I think people also have this idea a lot of times that like, drugs or alcohol are the key to creativity or being interesting.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  I think there's lots and lots of examples of people like making their best work, or making work at all.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  When I was in my, I don't know, I was like 26 or something. This guy, friend of my boyfriend at the time, I was like spouting off at the bar, and he was like, "Man, Edith, like, some people are really annoying when they're drunk. Like, you actually are more creative when you're drunk." And I was like, I knew it. But it certainly did not stay that way. I don't even think it was true at the time. And like, that's why it's tricky. Like, it starts out kind of fun. You have like one or two positive experiences such that like, you can no longer really be honest with yourself later on when you're like, "Am I having that many positive experiences now? Or am I just like repeating the same thing that worked like eight years ago, once or twice?"

• 19:48Speaker 02

  There is a level of truth for me where I'm like, "Now, at 11:00 PM, or certainly at 1:00 AM, I am asleep."

• 19:57Speaker 02

  And I used to not be asleep at those times. And part of that is just age, but part of it is like, when you are like drinking, you go out and you like stay out past when you would want to stay out necessarily, or like, things just keep happening and accelerating. Because I think like, that's just true. It's like, I, I went to, I started going to sleep a lot earlier, and I woke up earlier, and I had more time where I felt good and could like, be clear minded.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  That was like, probably the most dramatic change for me.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  I too. I'm asleep at nine.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, absolutely.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  I don't do any, like, my life is very boring. Like, we're, like, I'm being interviewed, right? Like, that's cool, good job. I'm, I'm sure, surely doing something right, but like, there's things that are missing. Like, it's like you go too much in one direction, you got to course correct. There's no perfect way to live. You just kind of have to do what you do.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  I completely agree.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And like, the constraints of my current life are more interesting to me than the constraints of my life when I stopped drinking.

• 20:53Chris Duffy?

  We're gonna take a quick break right now, but we will be back with more in just a moment.

• 21:07Chris Duffy?

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• 23:59Speaker 02

  And we are back. A lot of your artwork, especially the stuff that really resonates with people, it's kind of about things that I think people would say are like normal. Can you tell me a little bit about how you think about that? Because I think those constraints have ended up being like creative fuel for you in a lot of ways.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of it's just like not conscious. Like, I wake up and I go sit down in my office and I take out my pen. It's like 4:35 in the morning. And it's like my special time to myself because the children are sleeping, hopefully. And it's dark outside and it's very quiet and I've got my coffee. And I just write about whatever comes to mind from the day before. And like, it usually starts out kind of awkward. I'm like, well, what? Like, oh, like, good dinner we had last night or whatever. And then, and then just like a thread will sort of present itself. And I find that I want to draw about like, oh yeah. And then my daughter picked this flower. And then like the flower reminded me of this lamp. And I just sort of write like, I don't know.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  It's kind of like what I want to create or what my hand wants to draw or what I feel like draw. And a lot of times, like what you see is very little, very, very small percentage of what I actually do. It's like pretty, pretty dull, most of it, like truly dull.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  You make art about like everyday stuff and you take it from your journal. Has making art about the everyday made you appreciate mundane objects or mundane experiences more?

• 25:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Okay, tell me.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Let's say, let's say there's like a comic about how I drove the kids to the supermarket. And we like had this funny experience at the supermarket. I'm not like, I can't wait to go to the supermarket because what a, what a good time we had there. It just stays mundane. Like, I haven't tapped into any like secret of the universe or anything. Because I didn't, I was mostly a writer for like the first like 10 years of my career. But I did a lot of art in college and I liked drawing like little mundane things like, and sort of doing portraits of like a spray bottle. But it was just college, no big deal. But I still like doing that stuff. Just like pouring a lot of attention and detail into like a screenshot of a YouTube video or something.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  It's like relishing attention on unexpected destinations or things, I think, is like beautiful. But it's sort of, I don't know, there was some quote, I don't even know what it is, but it was like something about like the purpose of life is to spend attention at the times when you don't have to.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Well, I think that, I've been thinking a lot recently about how a lot of going through the world is, it's just easy to not notice things, to be like totally numb and on autopilot. And it's easy to do that, period. And I think that actually like there is something really important about being where you are. I mean, this is, this is like, I came up with Buddhism, but just now, did you notice that? I'm gonna quote Ram Dass in like the worst way, but I do think that part of your art is about like being where you are.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  I would say that it's about being where I am for like an hour and a half every morning. Cause I'm never where I'm at when I'm with the girls, like. So I draw a comic about being in the supermarket, but like when I'm at the supermarket, I'm like, how do we get out of here? Like, um, why are they being so annoying? Um, maybe I'll take a selfie with them so we look cute, but like, we gotta, gotta, like, and then the next morning, like, we went to this, like, we went to the supermarket, I'm gonna draw, like, it's like I'm looking back at these moments. I don't know, it's hard to describe, but it does feel like I can't be in the moment all the time, it's just not, I can't, I'm not doing that right now, that's not my life. But there is this time that I've harnessed that's important to me, where I feel like quiet and, I mean, flow state, something like that, it's like something akin to that,

• 27:49Speaker 01

  where I'm thinking about these moments, they're like kind of arising, and I'm observing them again in a way that I, a lot of it's just, I don't know what I'm doing really, but like something without too much thought or intention, it's just like, that's what I like to do, or it feels good to have this moment to just like let things from yesterday bubble back up to the surface and take a few minutes, a half an hour, just like lavishing some attention on like, oh yeah, my daughter picked a flower for me, I'm gonna draw that today, or oh, that like thing broke in the car, it was funny to look at, I'm gonna like draw my memory of it.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  I feel you being like, who am I to say this stuff? Like, I don't have this all figured out.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  I just wanna say. Yeah, I'm trying to figure this stuff out. And like, it's much more helpful to talk to someone who is figuring it out than someone who's like, "By the way, and that's how I've written 17 books this year, and you can see me, I'm the entire New York Times Bestseller list, there's just me." So, I just wanna say that, cuz I think that like, that actually is really important. But you don't have to have it all figured out. So you have something to offer.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  I hope so. I mean, I feel that way when I'm feeling optimistic. I mean, a lot of it's also like, my husband makes this life possible for me. Like, I was doing this before we met, and then he like financially supports us. So this question of like, "Oh my god, is my newsletter gonna make enough money to support myself?" Was like, "Well, I can just move in with my husband, like, we're fine, and we're gonna have a baby, we're gonna move upstate, like, we can afford this, I can spend the day," kind of how I want, in part because he's doing this. And I'm not like, it's funny, it's like, I think I'm doing, I'm doing work I like, I'm glad if it resonates with people, I'm not like famous or anything, I'm not wealthy, I'm not making a lot of money off any of this, so like, there's a little absurdity to this, but um, that's cool.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  But, I think that like, these are all the same questions that I genuinely am wrestling with every day right now. How do you like, make time to make art when there's so much else going on in life? Like, how can someone do that? What are three things that someone can do that like, can create some space and allow them the actual time to do that?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Well, staying up later, waking up early. I have time now, in the middle of the day, because we have childcare. Um, but it doesn't work, so like, I do more like administrative stuff during the day, but like, it's essential to me to work early in the morning before anything enters my mind. Um, I know some people, it's like that at night. But, yeah, early morning hours. Well, I have to say it cuz it's just blocking my mind if I don't say it. But it's like, if you don't wanna make it, then don't, you don't have to, it's like... I think a lot of people who are artists, they just do it because they feel compelled to. So people who are like, "I just don't have time to make art." I'm like, "You certainly do." You can find time if it needs to come out of you.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  I actually think that's so important. I wrestle with like, I want to be an artist. Like, I want to do that. But it takes so much control, like so much self-control and so much self-discipline to like, do it. I think a lot about how, you can't just say you're a doctor. But like, if I don't do comedy, then I'm not a comedian. If I don't write, then I'm not a writer. That is the only thing that makes you that. And it takes so much to like, actually do it, when there's so many other things in life. I think that's like an element of discipline and self-control that I really am wrestling with right now.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I've just had like, sort of a different experience.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Which is why I hesitate to be prescriptive about any of it. Which is like, these narratives that I thought were true ended up not being true for me. Like, for instance, about drinking. I thought that like, everywhere you turn for the rest of your life is gonna be like this pang of temptation and, oh god. It's like, hasn't been like that for me at all. And also like, oh, that it's gonna be the hardest thing. It's just like, for some reason, that one day was just like, okay, I'm done. Who knows what the future holds, right? But like, so that was bizarrely easy. And then, it's difficult because sometimes my younger daughter wakes up during this time, but like, it's easy for me. I don't, I don't set an alarm. But if compulsion, like feeling compelled to make stuff

• 32:01Speaker 01

  right now is the criteria, it's like... So yeah, it's sort of the opposite. It's like, it's not hard for me to carve this time out. It's also habitual, too. It's like, I carved it out when it was very easy for me. Because it's like, la la la, I can just wake up and go to the coffee shop. I spend as much time as I want here. And so that became like, the thing I did. And now, it's like, well, I can't take this away from me. This is the cornerstone of my entire life, so like...

• 32:26Speaker 02

  But I wonder if it also has to do with something about like a... Where you're willing to put yourself on the list versus other people. You know what I mean? Because for me, like making, like writing or telling jokes or performing live, like those are times where I feel like the most myself. And so whenever I make the time to do them, I'm like, what a reminder. But it's really easy for me to not make the time. Especially when you have like to care for family and it's not just about you anymore. When you get to a phase where it's like you're caring for your parents or you're caring for kids. I mean, you were hitting on this with the narratives, like it's easy to fall into narratives about ourselves and our creativity and who we are and what life will be like, even if they don't necessarily match up with reality.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think with, when you're responsible for other people, it's hard to carve out large chunks of uninterrupted time. And I think when people say like, I just don't have the time to do blah, blah, blah, like they're not lying.

• 33:19Chris Duffy?

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• 34:31Chris Duffy?

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• 35:10Speaker 02

  You wrote this really beautiful article about running and how sobriety and this physical activity of going for runs and jogging had kind of had an interesting relationship. Can you just tell us a little bit about that?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Also, I just want to say, I feel like, I'm starting to feel just like an imposter, where it's like, oh, you journal and you run instead of drink? It's like, yeah, you and like 50% of the population. But, yes.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Well, what's the imposter part of that?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Well, it's like, yeah, there's nothing special about what I do. So like, why would anyone want to talk to me about it?

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Oh, well, I think the answer, I can answer that one, which is, you don't have to. I do. I think you're special. But, I know, that's, that literally sounds like a Mr. Rogers episode. I think you're special, Edith. But I do, but I mean, really, I think like, the fact that it works for a lot of people is why I'm interested in it.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  It's sort of like what you were talking about earlier, about like, when you make choices with your life that are not just like going with the flow. I mean, I don't think anybody thinks of themselves as going with the flow and just sort of doing whatever. Everyone thinks they're making decisions all the time, which they are, and like... I'm going with the flow with like 90% of my life or something. But like every so often, I feel like, oh, you know what? I want to like take a step back and redirect this. Or like, maybe I've only done that three times in my life and the rest of it is just going with the flow. But designing your life, once you suddenly have more time, or once you make a little choice where you're like, I'm actually not going to do this thing.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  I think it's really important and because for me, like the thing, it was not difficult to stop drinking, but what was difficult was finding stuff to do with the time that emerged. Like I knit, I watched ASMR videos, I watched TV, I read thrillers. Because it was like, it was like kind of real with myself. I was like, what do I actually like to do? And like a lot of it, I didn't really know, but I was like, well, I know I like doing these kind of, reading these like trashy books and watching TV and knitting. I want, I don't want it to sound like I've made real choices with myself. I think a lot of times when good things have happened,

• 37:27Speaker 01

  it's when I'm being realistic about my motivations. Yeah, like now my creativity is better too. But it's like, you gotta be real. And also like I wanted to like stick it to some people who thought I would probably never be able to. So you're like a harness like spite a little bit too. And anyway, so like you just work with yourself and like your real impulses.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  I totally get it. Of course. And I think like the idea that everything has to be like in this neat tidy little package where it like makes sense all at once. And like, I'm doing it for pure reasons is a big reason why a lot of people never make changes.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  This also, you were asking about running.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, how did running play into all this?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Well, running was, it sort of makes sense in retrospect, but I stopped drinking like nine years ago and then I started running six years ago. And that seems very close, but really there's three years, which you know, is a lot. So like that, there was a lot of energy that was just there. So eventually through a very lucky chain of events, like. Started running, like COVID was involved. I had to find this other exercise class that was like pretty good. I did that for like two years and then COVID closed the exercise studio. And I was like, well, I'll do anything but run because I know I hate running because the running is like the worst thing. I'd like tried it a couple of times. It was like completely the wrong fit for me to the point where I was like, well, I'm sure that I'd be

• 38:43Speaker 01

  good at some kind of exercise, but it's certainly not running because like my body's not right. Like the way it moves is just like physically deeply wrong. Like it just absolutely never, never gonna happen. And then, yeah, it's much lower stakes. Sort of like, well, let's just do, let's just, I'm gonna walk. I'll walk around the park during COVID and join this Strava group, which is an app for running another exercise logging. So you can, it's basically like a social media for exercise. So if you, if you do a run or a walk, you can show it to all your friends on Strava and they'll be like, oh, good job, you did a run. So that was like positive feedback. And then, yeah, I just sort of like started running, punctuated the running, walking, running, walking.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And then, then eventually you can just like kind of keep running. I also had this idea that you're supposed to breathe through your nose. Yeah, where it's like, oh, if you don't breathe through your nose, you're like an animal. You have to breathe through your mouth. You must stop immediately, like you're gonna die or something like that's just such terrible form. And then my friend was like, no, that's not true. And I was like, oh, really? She's like, yeah, everybody breathes through their mouth when they run. I was like, are you serious? Yeah, it's true. So, yeah, so I just breathe through my mouth like everybody else who runs.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  I'm breathing through every ear.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  I'm like a pretty good runner now and I have to breathe through my mouth all the time.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  What, other than where you're breathing, what are you thinking about while you run?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Nothing special. I ruminate like in a fight with my husband. I'll think about how wrong he is and how right I am. I don't know. It's like, when you're a runner, you want to convince other people to run, but I know that nobody wants that.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Like, and it's never worked. Like everyone's been trying for a long time, but like nobody cares. No one's like, I'm not a runner and I hate running, but I'm just gonna like pay attention to some of these essays that these like proud people want to share, but so. So I'm always like trying to reach myself if I could have been encouraged to run earlier, but like it was, it would never have happened, so.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  People always tell me that when they run, they like get to a place where like their mind clears and they're in this euphoric state. And when I am running, I'm only thinking about when will I be able to stop running? That's like, when I run, I'm like, just get to the sign and then you can stop. And then I get to the sign and go, okay, just go to the tree. But like, it is just like a constant hostage negotiation in my head.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  How often do you run?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Very rarely.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, I think with running, I got to a point where I could maintain a trot sort of indefinitely.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  That felt like I had started like a new phase of life. Cause when people say like, oh, I just went for like a half hour run. I'm like, what do you mean?

• 41:19Speaker 02

  That's how I feel.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  And then very quickly, actually, I was able to get to that point, like within a few weeks, um, just like trotting. I was like, oh, I get it now. Like you can just kind of keep going. And I was like, oh, I'm like a, it was a good feeling. So like, those are some of the good feelings. And then you get to a point where you're not thinking about running. You're just kind of thinking about whatever. And it can kind of hurt, but that's just part of it. You're sort of thinking about something else.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  So you talked about how after you stopped drinking, you like quite literally Googled like, what do people do other than drink? And like, you know, three years later, you started running, you know, you used to mostly be a writer. Then you started publishing your, your artwork as well. So there's been this process of like self-discovery of asking yourself like, what is it that I do? And how do I spend my time?

• 42:05Speaker 02

  How has that process been an ongoing process? And how has it been something where like you've found things and then you want them to stick and be pillars?

• 42:14Speaker 01

  I just do what I like to do.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  I think that's a great answer. I think that is the answer. I mean, cause my question is kind of like, how, how often do you figure out what you like to do? And how often do you just stick?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  It feel like what I'm trying to say and what you're maybe trying to ask, which is maybe not true at all, is like, yeah, how do you find what you like to do? And how do you take a moment to be like, do I even like what I'm doing right now? And like, how do I change it? I think a lot of it is just luck, like looking back on my own circumstances. That's why it feels difficult for me to recommend things to people. Cause like, A lot of it has just been chance and luck and being fortunate that the things I like to do are pretty easy. Like, oh yeah, I still like to draw. Like, I loved to draw as a kid. It's like, I still really like to draw. And I like to write. It's like, I do my little writing, and I do my little drawing, and I do my little writing, and somehow it's just like really fun. It hasn't run out. And I didn't know that I liked running. That was totally new. Like, I thought I had no sports stuff. If you want to find stuff

• 43:09Speaker 01

  that you might like to do, sometimes it's useful to think about things that you know that you hate doing. Because like, for me, I'm like, well, I hate, I hate running, and like, I hate bicycling. It's like, maybe someday I'll get into biking.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Something that I, I think about a lot with this is like, I know that I'm so different than the person I was five years ago, and certainly than the person I was 10 years ago or 15 years ago. But I sometimes forget that like, the person who I will be in five years is really different than who I am now. Like, I think like, surely, this is me now.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, okay, I've finally gotten to the place where I coast until it's, until it's over.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Now I'm me.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  And the answer, but the answer is dull. It's like, just keep testing. Everything you think you know about yourself is probably not true. It's like, well, great. Like, what does that even mean? Like, I don't know. Realistically, I don't know. I think it's just like being open to new experiences and retrying things. Because sometimes like the situation is just totally different, or you're totally different.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Edith, thank you so much for being on the show. This was an absolute pleasure to talk to you.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 44:17Chris Duffy?

  That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Edith Zimmerman. Her newsletter is called Drawing Links, and you can find more from her, including her Etsy store, where you can buy cards and prints and all kinds of other cool art stuff, at edithzimmerman.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, Humor Me, about how to laugh more every day, is available for preorder right now. You can find more about my book and all of my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who are cartoonishly wonderful. On the TED side, we've drawn together Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tenzica Sun Manivong, and Tonya Lei and Joseph DeBryan. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas,

• 45:01Chris Duffy?

  who believe in honesty and truth-telling. And on the PRX side, we've got artists of audio, Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please, share this episode with a person who you think is cartoonishly wonderful, someone who you would like to see drawn into a cartoon, or just a person you think would enjoy this. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks for listening.

• 45:31Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at nrdc.org/human, and your gift will be matched five times.

• 46:17Chris Duffy?

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