Book Club Meets: “I was burnt out!” Live a slower life, with Emma Gannon

Sometimes the braver thing isn’t trying to keep going. Writer Emma Gannon hit real burnout, admitted she was overwhelmed, and embarked upon a year of doing... nothing. A Year of Nothing was our Happy Place Book Club pick for February. In it, Emma charts stepping away from the noise and rediscovering joy in life’s simplest pleasures, from dog borrowing and dopamine dressing to relearning how to swim and embracing a child-free life. In this chat with Fearne, she explains how to stop being so mean to yourself, and how to rebuild your identity when you feel you’ve lost it. Often, she says, it’s not about ‘finding yourself’... it’s about unlearning all the stuff everyone else has heaped on top of you! Emma wants to be strong and do big things with her life, but appreciates she had to stop in order to grow. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Emma’s first Happy Place chat https://pod.fo/e/11b2f1 Book Club Meets: Maggie O’Farrell https://pod.fo/e/388539 Book Club Meets: Nussaibah Younis https://pod.fo/e/37108f Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and welcome to Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton. Today, A Year of Nothing by Emma Gannon.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  We're so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for because I don't know about you, but I've had times where I've been like crying on the floor, just absolutely just falling apart. And then I will get up and go make a sandwich. You carry on. So I think if anyone's worried about completely falling apart and not putting themselves back together, like you will put yourself back together. And actually saying you're not okay was a huge one for me. I remember like ringing my parents and just being like, I'm really unwell and I'm taking time off work. But it was like admitting defeat or failure to me was really hard.

• 1:10Fearne Cotton?

  So A Year of Nothing was our Happy Place Book Club pick for February. Emma Gannon is a writer who found herself massively burnt out. So A Year of Nothing follows her quiet rebellion against the cult of doing and striving and pushing all the time. This book charts Emma stepping away from the noise and rediscovering joy in life's simplest pleasures, from dog borrowing and dopamine dressing to relearning how to swim and embracing a child-free life. As ever, we've all been chatting about this book on Instagram. Our handle is at Happy Place Book Club. Come and join us, book nerds. Sarah said she read this in two evenings. Love, love, loved it. So did I. I couldn't put it down. I read it in like two sittings.

• 1:54Fearne Cotton?

  As someone who's signed off with burnout, it was as if it was narrating my life. It resonated so much. I took so much from it, kindness and a slower and more gentle approach to life. Sarah, I mean, Emma will be thrilled to hear you say that. That's exactly why she's written this book. It's changed Shelley's attitude too. She says she now doesn't feel guilty or worried that something's wrong with her when she's lost her zest for life if she just wants to get home and hunker down in her PJs with a book in the dark evenings. I mean, that is literally me every damn day. And I love this from Julie. I've read this exquisite book and I love it, especially how interactive it is, challenging the reader to reflect for

• 2:35Fearne Cotton?

  themselves on their lives. Carry this gem in your bag. It guides you to be at peace with yourself. Too right. I think that's bang on Julie and you're going to get so much out of this chat too. I mean, I certainly did. Loads in here about losing your sense of identity, how to stop being mean to yourself. My God, we need that one. And why crying in the woods in your wallowing phase is the absolute best.

• 3:02Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 3:35Speaker 04

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• 4:15Speaker 04

  exclusive offer. That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 4:26Speaker 05

  Help I sexted my boss is the podcast where manners. Meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson. I'm Jordan North. And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life. William's the arbiter of etiquette. And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang. So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexted My Boss. Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday. On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Just search sexted. Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 4:59Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

• 5:22Fearne Cotton?

  As I just said off mic, I'm over the moon that not only we get to hang out and chat, but also that we get to talk about this bloody great bloody book.

• 5:31Fearne Cotton?

  It's so brilliant. A Year of Nothing. As soon as I heard the title, I was like, well, I need to read that immediately before I even knew.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  I feel like it's soothing even reading those words, right?

• 5:39Fearne Cotton?

  Even looking at the cover. But it is soothing. You're so right. Reading that, A Year of Nothing, how many of us are craving that? And obviously, for many people, it's sort of an absurd idea that we could step out of life. I mean, it's probably more possible to have a break than we believe. I think sometimes we feel so wedded till we have to do every social commitment, every single thing that's in our diary. And actually, well, as you proved, out of sheer necessity, you can make the space. Your year of nothing wasn't like, oh, I'm going to take a gap year, guys. This was a brutal low that you hit. Sort of out of nowhere, really. Or do you think now retrospectively, you can see that it was, you were on track to have this big burnout?

• 6:24Speaker 02

  I think if, yeah, if I look back, there are definitely warning signs and I can sort of tell now in other people. It's like a weird one where I'm like, I can just spot, you know, the telltale signs, but.

• 6:34Fearne Cotton?

  That might be like what? What would you say? Because I'm thinking, fuck, you're probably looking at me thinking, woman, take a year off.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  And like you just said, by the way, you know, a year of nothing, it wasn't quite that straightforward. Like I still did things, but it was more like a year of. Not caring as much, or like a year of not feeling as intensely as I did about work, a year of just doing less, you know, let's just take it with a pinch of salt. But I would say the warning signs are things like really resenting things, like people around you or your life. Apathy, like just not really caring as much.

• 7:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Not having the passion that you used to, like, I didn't read many books during my year of nothing. I couldn't really concentrate. I didn't really love things as much. I didn't have that, like, bouncing, not that I used to bounce out of bed, but, you know, really dragging myself out of bed was another one. Like not washing my hair as often, you know, little, maybe little things like that, like not taking care of myself as much. But also I write about in the book, like, wearing like really mad clothes. I was like really kind of having an identity crisis because a lot of this is feeling like I don't know who I am anymore.

• 7:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  It was a year of not, yeah, not having a personality is how I felt, honestly, a year of like being gloop.

• 7:53Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  But I think honestly, if you're feeling like that, I just wanna say to people, there's no shame in it. I'm like weirdly proud of my year of nothing because I listened to the call of,

• 8:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  you know, feeling really burnt out and overwhelmed.

• 8:10Fearne Cotton?

  And also you were courageous enough, and it might not have felt like it at the time, but to properly let yourself fall apart. Because I can look back at, you know, I certainly had a moment where I totally unraveled. But equally over the years, I've had moments where I've not let myself fall apart, like, nope, you will not fall apart. You will keep your shit together and you will push through, even though you feel like dropping to your knees and howling at the moon or crying your eyes out. Sometimes the braver thing isn't to trek on, it's to actually let yourself go. Oh, I am, I'm done. I'm absolutely done.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. It's so true. And also, like, we're so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. Because I don't know about you, but I've had times where I've been like crying on the floor, just absolutely just falling apart. And then I will get up and go make a sandwich. Like, you carry on, because that's what we do as humans. So I think if anyone's worried about completely falling apart and not putting themselves back together, like, you will put yourself back together. And actually saying you're not okay was a huge one for me. I remember like ringing my parents and just being like, I'm really unwell and I'm taking time off work. And it was, and my parents are lovely, but it was like, admitting defeat or failure to me was really hard.

• 9:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I get it. Because we're, there's so much pressure that we're meant to be on all the time, without any sort of seasons or without any moment where we just retreat a little bit. And I'm always, I remember when Dawn French came on the podcast a long, it might have been the first episode. I think it, I think it was probably the first or second episode ever, about eight years ago. And I can't remember if this was on mic or off mic, but she said something that really stuck with me. And it was along the lines of, you know, she was living in Cornwall at the time, she might still be there. And she was pondering whether she had retreated from life or was actually, you know, being choosy and, and doing what she needed to do.

• 10:11Fearne Cotton?

  And I was like, God, I, I don't know the difference in my own, in the context of my life. Those moments where I do need rest, I really need to be a bit of a hermit versus when I've gone, I can't cope, I don't want to look over there, I don't want to deal with humans, I want to hide. I find that very difficult to differentiate.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a really big one. And look, none of this is easy. But I, my theory is it all comes down to love and self-respect. So it's like, for me, it's like, say I'm really tired and I love myself, then the loving thing to do is either cancel everything in your diary and put a film on and get under the banquet. Or it could be, actually, do you know what? I haven't moved my body for ages. And the loving thing to do is go for a walk. Or like, the loving thing to do is like, do some weights because I care about being a strong person. It's gonna be a different answer to everyone, but. I just come from that now because you can't go wrong with that.

• 11:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Ever.

• 11:15Fearne Cotton?

  It's such a great point to start there because when we look at the messaging that's thrown our way, whether it's Instagram or podcast, YouTube, whatever, a lot of the time, and I actually wrote about this in my new book, there's this rhetoric that it's like, exercise will make you feel better. And it's like, well, some of the time it does. And then actually, there's some times and some people like me who need to be told, you're doing too much. You need to have days where you're resting your body. Your body is fatigued. Like, let your body rest. So, yes, it's great to go for a walk, go for a run, swim, whatever it might be. But actually, there's days where you do, you need to come from a place of, I love myself. What do I need today? And it's going to be different every day.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's a huge one because, you know, I, I don't think anyone has the advice for, you know, eat this and do this. I can't stand the whole, like, what I eat in a day and all that stuff. I'm just like, if, if that day, you just know that your body needs to be nourished, then you're just going to intuitively.

• 12:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Be like, I probably need some vegetables today. Or I need like a pizza and a beer.

• 12:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Because I'm really craving that. And I just, I don't know, I just think we're so hard on ourselves.

• 12:24Fearne Cotton?

  We're so hard on ourselves.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  And I think that's really what broke me, honestly, is I look back at how I used to be. And I was so mean to myself and I, I really have got a handle on that now because it's just, I don't know, you, you're going to crack at some point. So I don't think we're meant to function in that way.

• 12:43Fearne Cotton?

  No. I mean, I, I still have a little demon on my shoulder a lot of the time. He'll be going, you're fucking stupid or everyone hates you. Or, you know, that can, in, in certain situations, that can be quite loud still. What, did you do anything specifically to get to a point where you can now, most of the time, act from a place of self-love and compassion?

• 13:03Speaker 02

  It's weird because I think because of my burnout, which kind of manifests as like big panic attacks and. Without sounding really dramatic, I felt like if I didn't get a handle on it, I wouldn't survive.

• 13:17Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Like, because my body was just in this weird fight or flight, where it was like, if I didn't go home and be a hermit for a while, if I didn't say no to the weird events I don't wanna go to, if I didn't cut out that friend that was horrible to me, then I'm so sensitive and it's almost like I've tried to not be embarrassed about how sensitive I am. I actually think it's like a really good thing as well. It allows me to write novels and be good at doing tarot cards and all that stuff.

• 13:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  But um, I honestly felt like it was survival to grow. Cause I think we're here to grow. And if we're not growing, you're like the little stunted flower in the garden that's like gonna kinda wither away. And I was like, actually, I think I wanna like do big things with my life and I wanna be strong and I wanna, I wanna be like, I know we always talk about, you know, like the older woman in our seventies wearing like big necklaces.

• 14:05Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Like, I wanna be that person that likes myself and is like a really lovely presence to be around. Like, I want a good nervous system.

• 14:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  That's why a year of nothing. I was like, if the world at the moment is like killing our souls, capitalism is driving everyone insane. You know, look, look around us. What's the opposite of that? The opposite of that is not rushing around as much.

• 14:28Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, without a doubt. I mean, there's so much I need to pick up on from what you've just said. First of all, let's dive into the whole sensitive person thing, cause I very much, I, I think constantly shouldn't be in this industry, cause you, it's hard to be a sensitive person in this industry, in many industries. I don't have that experience. All I know is this. And this can be quite brutal in your shoes, in my shoes, where people have got outside commentary constantly about what you're doing well, what you're not, what you said, what you shouldn't have said, you know, it can be really personal. And I'm maybe like missing a layer of armour that I should have to deal with it. And probably once a month, I think, fuck it, I'm gonna quit, I'm gonna go and open a cat sanctuary and probably be much happier. And maybe that is in my future.

• 15:12Fearne Cotton?

  But it's, it's often tricky. What do you do to ensure that you can live in a big way? Have big dreams, do the things you wanna do, express yourself um honestly and openly, whilst not losing that sensitive side. Cause you're right, I think it's a really good thing. Why would we want to harden ourselves? I don't want a thicker skin or to like. Have to like push through things and toughen up. Sometimes we can use our resilience to get through things. But other times, I think it's really detrimental to to push through when we're not that sort of person.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I totally agree. And actually, even when you said armour, I was like, oh, I don't know if it is about armour, actually, is it? Sometimes it's about taking the armour off and being like, you know, I don't know, it's with my year of nothing. What was so empowering about it is I knew, I knew like the smallest amount of budget of money I needed. Because I wasn't working as much, so I like, my overheads were lessened. So, you know, I didn't do as much, I didn't go out for dinner as much, whatever, but I knew like what I need. And I knew, I just had like the basics covered, like I knew how to kind of get through a day. And I knew that I had like five really close friends on WhatsApp, whatever. It wasn't really about, I knew I didn't need like lots and lots of things to keep me going.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  And I think that gave me that resilience to be like, no one can really hurt me. Cause I know how to live my own life. I don't, I don't need as much validation, I suppose. Like, I validated myself in private for like months and months to be like, I'm good. But I think, I don't know, in answer to your question, it's like, I think honestly, if you're in this job, like, you have a lot to give. And I see that in you, like, you're just a mirror, aren't you? Like, if people love you, it's because they probably love themselves. If they love your clothes, probably because they would like to wear those clothes. If they don't like you, I would say maybe something's going on with them. Like, I can really see the separation now of like, someone else's thoughts are just nothing to do with you at all.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  And you know, the whole kind of like Gwyneth Paltrow thing of like, she always talks about how she's like a trigger for people. I think it's like, people are triggered by people with big light and big energy.

• 17:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 17:29Fearne Cotton?

  I get it. I love, I love the simplicity of it, like people who give other people shit. I say this to my kids all the time. It's like, I need to take heed of it myself, you know, if they're talking about discrepancy at school or someone said something about someone, that is always my go to. It's like, people that say mean things, they're just, they're not happy or there's something in them that feels slightly unnerved.

• 17:52Fearne Cotton?

  But I guess in the moment, it can be quite hard. And I'm so fascinated by what you just said there about privately, you validated yourself. And I think that is so powerful because from my deep dive into the subject of likability, which I've sort of spent the last year thinking about for this book I've been writing. And there's so many things in your book where I was like, oh, my God, this is exactly what I'm thinking and feeling. We often, I believe, look for that outside validation because we're not sure if we're like getting life right. Or if in this very binary sense, we're a good person or a bad person. And we all hope we're a good person, but actually we're so much more, more than that. We're so much more complex than that in a brilliant way.

• 18:37Fearne Cotton?

  We, we all, most of us, and I'm sure most people listening to this, are good people with, you know, good intentions. But of course, we do clumsy things. We do stupid things sometimes. We're going to upset other people. That is part of the human experience. It's not as black and white as being you're a good person or you're a bad person. With exceptions of some people currently in the world that are very obvious, but for the most part, everybody's giving it their best shot. But that doesn't mean that we're not fallible or gonna massively mess up. So I think it's eradicating that.

• 19:15Fearne Cotton?

  Seems very helpful, but I wonder what, what has helped you privately validate yourself and not need the world to tell you, you're doing all right. You're good. You're a good person.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  I think we actually spoke about some of this when I came on Happy Place like four years ago. Do you remember I was talking about how I got confused with what I liked? And my taste. And I was talking about the algorithms and how I was like, what do I like?

• 19:37Fearne Cotton?

  Because everyone's telling you, you should like this.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Everyone's telling me what music to listen to, what's cool, what's popular, what to wear. You know, we're in like a trend led society. And it was so much fun going back to like childhood me. And I had a lot of therapy during my year of nothing. And there was so much in like the I F S therapy where it's like you go back to the parts of you that you've neglected. And I think that when you grow up into being an adult, you, there is still the little you inside you at all times. And if you neglect that one, then you just become very sad. Like I remember like looking at photos of myself during that time. I'm just so sad. And I feel like there's like. You know, I know you love the woo woo, but I think that underneath it, there's like a soul

• 20:22Speaker 02

  version of us that is like, you know, you've got a lovely car and you've got a lovely house. And, you know, you're wearing a lovely dress, but like, there's a, there's a layer that doesn't care about material items and just wants to just be free. And I think freedom was a big thing for me as well to discover is, um, what is freedom? I mean, freedom is, I don't need the things I think I need, including validation from other people.

• 20:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Cause no one else knows, you know, I, I actually had a much shinier job before now. I just sit at home writing my books now, whereas before I was doing loads of stuff like out there. And I'm happier now.

• 21:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  And that's confusing because I actually had like a better life on paper before.

• 21:07Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I mean, I totally relate to that. I, I think people still go to me, oh, I haven't seen you on TV for years and years. Like that was the pinnacle of my life existence. And it's like, yeah, I was much more visible then, sure. And I did, you know, exciting TV jobs all around the place. But it doesn't feel safe to me anymore. And actually I certainly don't need that in my life. If, if something came along and felt right, I'm, I'm, I'm maybe would consider it. But I'm much happier doing things on my terms, probably slightly more sort of quietly and calmly and feeling like I'm sort of getting something out of it. And also I think the space to just be myself, and I think that's what all of us hope we can do, isn't it?

• 21:49Fearne Cotton?

  Turn up to work or in our friendship circle purely as ourselves. And like you said earlier, you weren't quite sure who you were during that year. And that, I think, you know, even when we had Anton Deck on the podcast the other day, Deck said, yeah, I don't, I don't think I'm quite sure who I am, which was a huge shock to me. I thought you, but you must know, you're, you're so definitely you on TV. But I think so many of us in private are going, who the hell am I? What, what do I want to do? Who do I, who do I want to hang out with? What do I like? You know, we're so confused because we're so bombarded constantly with outside information. Have you landed on, and this might be a bit of an obscure question,

• 22:33Fearne Cotton?

  but have you landed on maybe a description or a line of who you believe you are? Is that even possible?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, I'm lucky enough to have like an office in my house and it's got a massive armchair in it. It's got loads of books and it's got like posters on the wall and little trinkets. And I was like looking around it the other day and I was like, this is the bedroom I had when I was like 12 years old. Like it's just, how can I not just be who I've always been? And I don't think it's about figuring out who you are. I think it's like unlearning

• 23:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  all of the crap to be like, oh no, I knew who I was at like three years old. And like, you know, if we're gonna get really deep, I kind of believe that like we we're all like the energy we bring essentially.

• 23:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  And it's getting back to like the purest energy. You know, when someone walks into a room and you're like, you haven't seen them, but you can feel them.

• 23:27Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  It's like, we all have like our own distinct energy that we bring. And if that energy is depleted, that's when I think we need to like start the healing process because

• 23:38Speaker 02

  it's not actually, I don't think in our nature to be kind of wallowing or sad. Like, we need those moments, we do, but I think we're meant to kind of come out of them at some point.

• 23:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  And so that's been an interesting one. But God, we're we're gonna go through times where we don't know who we are all the time. I'm trying to normalize this, honestly, because people are like, how do I not burn out? And I'm like, no, I don't think it's about that. I think it's about it being okay if you do.

• 24:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, completely. And also, like you say, to have that wondering moment of who the hell am I? Because I think every time you go through that, and I've certainly been through it about a zillion times, you have the opportunity to reinvent yourself if you want. And I'm not talking about like a Madonna-esque, I'm wearing a kimono kind of way now and I've dyed my hair black. But like, you get to go, well, how do I want to do life? And it might be a bit different to how I did it before. And other people might go, sorry, what, you all of a sudden make teapots or all of a sudden you wanna, you know, quit your job? Like, yeah, shock people around you and do what feels good to you. I think sometimes we're so worried about outside opinion.

• 24:41Fearne Cotton?

  When you were in this big low, was the apathy so much so that you actually didn't care what people around you thought? Or or or what their worries were?

• 24:53Speaker 02

  That's it. That's it. And I actually think that from people I've spoken to, especially women who go through the menopause, I I didn't go through that, but it was a similar thing of. I care so much about my own survival in this moment that I do not care if I upset you. And that was so freeing. Like, you know, I think there's that book, like The Courage to be Disliked. I haven't read it, but I like the title. I need to read that. And just this idea of the minute you don't actually care if you've upset someone is kind of, I mean, that was just life changing for me. I don't want to go around upsetting people, obviously. But if someone is disappointed that I can't do that thing for them, then I'm okay with that. I'm not doing it. No.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  And so discovering boundaries, oh my God, it's like I think I feel like a wizard. Like, the fact that I can just not do something. Yeah. It's like, because for so long, I was so shackled by that.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 26:23Speaker 04

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an

• 27:03Speaker 04

  exclusive offer. That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 27:14Speaker 06

  For investors at the highest level of sophistication, those with strong advisory support, the natural outcome is two distinct portfolios, one public, one private. Each plays a different role in the overall strategy. Uncover new investment opportunities for you at creativeplanning.com/new.

• 27:30Speaker 07

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  And you guys know, we don't do Halloween by halves. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Then we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dilemmas. Listen to our Halloween specials, search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 28:07Fearne Cotton?

  And what do you think was driving that? Because for me, it was always this weird sort of inherent sense of duty that I had to do everything for everyone. I thought, I'm, I'm so fortunate, I've got a great job that I love. I should just do everything that is asked of me, which is absurd. Because then you're skating on such thin ice that you actually end up doing everything fucking badly. What was driving your need to do all the things?

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Oh my God. I mean, probably like ancient stuff in my body that I wouldn't even know where to start. I mean, the stuff we carry, especially as women, ancestral, probably.

• 28:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  You know, who knows? I could be carrying my great, great grandmother's guilt about something.

• 28:51Fearne Cotton?

  I think we are.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, and I've had some really interesting kind of sessions around that stuff. And I think for me, I just was like, do you know what? I, I don't know if I want to spend like all my time digging into this stuff. I was like, I just want to let it go. I don't know if it's as simple as that, but I just kind of thought, what if I just kind of woke up every day and decided, like as if it's just this choice we get to make, that today I can just make the rules. And what's so interesting is how people react to you when you start setting boundaries. At first they don't like it and then they just start really respecting you. So it's, it is, it's a good thing.

• 29:30Fearne Cotton?

  It is. And I think, so I remember reading, or maybe it was Brené Brown on a podcast saying, as soon as you start setting boundaries, you're going to piss people off. And that's terrifying for everybody, you know, you don't want to upset people. You know, maybe there's a few people that get a kick out of it. I do not, I do not like causing a fuss or a scene, it stresses me out massively. But I think, like you say. You can get out of bed and think, I'm gonna set the rules today. And you can, and you're wondering there if it is that simple that you can just say, I'm gonna let it go. I think it is because then you just have to put it into practice. So you're not gonna nail it first time, maybe, but then you try again the next day or the next week. Like, are you gonna say no again?

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Exactly. Also, I mean, your question is so, such a good one because I think that is like an underlying fear that drives all of us.

• 30:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Surely. And I think, you know, we live, we do live in a world of like cancel culture and things like that. And I was thinking, okay, what, what would my biggest fear be then? If I just turn around and say, I don't wanna do that or upset someone. Okay, what if everyone hates me? Like, what if that is actually true? Then I've actually lived through my biggest fear, which is a year of nothing. Which is basically how like a cancelled person would live for a year.

• 30:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Cause I was just at home, honestly, like minding my own business, having a lovely time. But it was just, it was this weird thing of like, oh, I've overcome a fear of mine actually as well that was not being able to work. That was a really big fear of mine. Like, what if I can't be this all singing, all dancing person at all times? Well, I've lived through it and I'm here wearing my rainbow trousers, nothing bad happened.

• 31:01Fearne Cotton?

  So phenomenal.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Like, it's sort of exposure therapy, I guess.

• 31:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's so good. Cause I think many of us have that, like, what, what if I stopped? What if I stopped doing all this stuff that I believe I have to do? Or even if you let yourself off the hook with, I, I definitely have the tendency to be a bit of a perfectionist with things that I'm doing. Or I give myself a hard time if I haven't been the best that I could be that day or the best on that particular job. Or, or even like, you know, last night, I was thinking to myself, you're not really an expert in anything. You, you know, you're not really excelling at anything here. Like, you need to excel in maybe just one thing and be that person who's known for, you do that one thing really well. And I was like, Who, who gives a shit? Who cares? Like, why?

• 31:48Fearne Cotton?

  Like, I, I sort of have become, over the years, obsessed with, say, like, sports personalities, where they've become exceptional at that one thing, like, running 100 metres in the quickest time, or relay, or whatever it might be. And they've fine tuned that one part of their brain and body to do that one thing, and it's amazing. But I don't know, do I need to do that? Obviously not in the running world, but do I need to, to reach my full potential? I, I don't know how worth, I think we, we, again, we sort of chucked that theory a lot, like, reach your full potential, push your own boundaries. And it's like, have we stopped to ask why?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Hmm. I mean, none of that appeals to me. As in, you know, people who climb Everest, I'm like, hats off to you.

• 32:34Fearne Cotton?

  But like.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  You're not gonna find me.

• 32:37Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not interested.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  I'm gonna be napping. I just, I'm, that's never, I mean, and I love that, that you have that. And of course, because look at everything that you've achieved. Like, you're not gonna, you, you've obviously got that ambition to do things really well, because you do do them really well. But I, I mean, I wrote the book about being a multi hyphenate. Like, I love a bit of dabbling and trying new things and reinventing yourself. And, and also, a lot of this, I think, is like, following your gut instincts and following that inner compass of what do I want to do? Which, we should mention, like, when you left Radio One and you started your own podcast, you were like pioneering a whole industry before people had joined.

• 33:18Fearne Cotton?

  I did not feel like it.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  But you did something really scary and built your own media empire. And I'm sure people were making you feel like you were doing the wrong thing.

• 33:26Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  And I think that's, but that's what's really hard is, when, during my year of nothing, I thought, oh, my God, I'm broken and this is really bad. But actually, when you're following your instincts, you're probably on to something and doing the right thing.

• 33:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, I so agree, I so agree. Like, I'm so attracted to people that I know are one hundred percent working from an authentic place of this is who I am and this is what I wanna do. And it could be so niche or like one thing over here, but I'm so attracted to people who work in that way. Because you know it's real. It's and in this world and, you know, we don't know what the hell's real, what's not, but I think we have a sense of it like, oh, this person really gives a shit about this thing. And I think that's what I'm trying to get back to constantly with anything in my work or personal life is am I doing this out of fear or because I feel like I'm not enough? Or do I just actually really give a shit about it? And that

• 34:24Fearne Cotton?

  that feels so much less stressful, actually, because it there's more fluidity to it, like you, you move with that energy rather than must keep going and pushing through this sort of like hustle culture I cannot bear.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  It's so hard. And I think, you know, any industry has its own things, but there's always this benchmark of like, are you number one? And I, you know, I don't, I'm not from the TV world, but I'm sure it's really in that world as well, the rankings and the ratings and how good are you? And honestly, during my year of nothing, I was like, I am not gonna rank or rate or give myself stars, like a review. I'm, can I just like opt out of like this staple of approval that we need for everything, everything's liked or commented on. I was not perceived, no one could like or comment. I was just with myself and

• 35:20Speaker 02

  I really recommend it for anyone out there. I'm not saying do a year, but even just a weekend, even just anything where like you don't have eyeballs on you.

• 35:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, let yourself the hook. Do you know what? I had a day recently that was a sort of a shock to me almost because I've been I, I, I have always been really hard on myself and pushed myself, but I'm definitely going through this really interesting period, probably over the last 12 months of. Like growth and big, big change. And, and I had this one day where I'd been out. And I was, I drank quite a lot and I was really hungover the next day. And normally that could be a bit of a switch for me to self-loathe and think, right, you better get up and like clean the kitchen and like make things look nice. So just you're less of a mess. And actually I wallowed that day. I felt terrible. I didn't shower. I wore a tracksuit. I, I watched TV all day. I literally did nothing. I ate loads of junk.

• 36:12Fearne Cotton?

  And I really needed it. And I, I didn't have that voice in my head going, you are disgusting. You, I bet other people who are doing well don't have days like this. I just thought, I'm actually loving every minute of this and it's exactly what I need. And I, I have never had that feeling before. It was completely new to me and I was like, oh, I'm onto something. There's change of foot. Like this is, it's not like I've done anything differently. I'm just, the voice isn't there.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's really huge.

• 36:42Fearne Cotton?

  Huge.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Cause I think a lot of people who have read the book are like, wow, you let yourself like really, cause I had like a week doing that. I mean, more than. And it was almost like people going, oh, you let yourself do that. And I was like, yeah.

• 36:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  That was, and, and I guess, you know, back to what I was saying earlier about there maybe being a time limit on that, you know, cause I think, you know, the whole like bed rotting thing. It's like, I think instinctively though, we know, okay, I'm gonna get up now.

• 37:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  But you, oh my God, I love to have a wallow.

• 37:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  And I love to put on sad music.

• 37:16Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, me too.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  I love to go on a really melancholy walk.

• 37:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, me too.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  I just.

• 37:20Fearne Cotton?

  Crying in the woods.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Oh, so good.

• 37:22Fearne Cotton?

  Fucking love it.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's not like toxic positivity vibes. It's like, however you're feeling, feel it.

• 37:28Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. And I think that's the key to it. Whether you're in a wallowing phase, wintering, which I love that book as well by Catherine May, like whatever that phases or mood you're in, if you really land in it, it will naturally move on. I think it was also Rhonda Byrne who wrote The Secret. When I interviewed her years ago, she said something like that to me. Like if you're feeling sad or panicked or whatever, don't resist it. Dive deeply into it and then it will go.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:55Fearne Cotton?

  And unless you allow yourself to properly feel it, you're in it. Or like the catchphrase of like, You can't heal it till you feel it or whatever, but it is so, so true. And actually during your year of nothing, like you say, it wasn't a year of absolute nothing. There were beautiful things that came from it and discovery from that place of joy. And one of them was swimming.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 38:17Fearne Cotton?

  Tell us about swimming and what it gave you.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  I learnt so much about myself during that year.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel like physiologically I needed to be in cold water, which I think a lot of women relate to. In which I was sort of very hot and bothered and I just needed to like plunge into cold water. And just like, I could see that like the fizzing water just coming off me because it was just. Yeah, I needed to just like wash it all away and get the cobwebs away. And so that was nice and I just, it was such a kind of lovely moment with like myself where I would just take myself off to the unheated Lido. Absolutely freezing, but just, you know, have the pool to myself because no one else is doing, you know, that icy cold, um, wintery swimming. Like I was that, that winter. And it was like, no one is going to get anything from me. No one's going to hear from me. I'm not going to like take a photo of this.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  It was just so private, kind of back to the private thing. And to validate that and be like, that was a really good day. Even though I'm not hearing from anyone that it was a good day.

• 39:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and you're not being like, Judge, are you doing good swimming? How long did you stay in the cold water? It's like, how long I want to stay in it.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:27Fearne Cotton?

  For sure. Yeah, love that.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:29Fearne Cotton?

  What else emerged for you during the year that you've, you've really kept and that you want to continue with?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  I write a little bit about dopamine dressing in the book because there was one morning where I was on the turn and it was like, okay, now you have a bit more energy. And I put on these really loud dungarees and just went for a walk. And this is the funny thing, I think when you're very unwell, the very, very simple things in life seem like the biggest epiphany. I mean, I went and like bought myself some flowers one day and just like put them in a vase. And I was like, oh, the world is colourful and nice and we can do things for ourselves that improve the day. And now, honestly, before my year of nothing, I was like, I had no tools. I was just like at the twenty something navigating the world.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  And I think the more tools you have, like if I'm feeling a bit weird now, I'll be like, right, have I done these five things? Okay. And if I'm still feeling awful after those five things, do you know what? You just need to go to sleep or like just, I don't know, sit in the garden in silence. It's, it's, um, yeah, it's like a formula now of knowing yourself, I think.

• 40:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And it'll be different for everyone. And that's again, I think why, you know, I, I sometimes feel uncomfortable that happy place is in the wellness camp and bits of that are great. And there's lots of things from that wellness pole that have really helped me and got me out of a horrible mess. But equally, I don't like it when things are prescribed to us, like with one person, your five things will be different to my five things.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 40:58Fearne Cotton?

  And the only way we'll find out is by trying things.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 41:02Fearne Cotton?

  Gotta test it.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And that's why, yeah, there's no formulas. And we all go through massive change. I think if I was going to call it a different, it'd be like a year of change.

• 41:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  You know, we all, because in a few years' time, we'll both be sat together completely different again. And be talking about that hard time we went through.

• 41:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, totally.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  And I think it's like zooming out, isn't it? And being very objective in a way, like I'll now look at myself and go, oh, you, you know, you look good now. Didn't look very good three years ago when you were going through that, you know, it's like, I can really see how I am from the outside now. And I think it's because I do like my morning pages, very in touch with how I'm feeling through journaling.

• 41:43Fearne Cotton?

  Julia Cameron do the.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 41:45Fearne Cotton?

  Ford of the book.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  I love her so much.

• 41:48Fearne Cotton?

  She's amazing.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Been pen pals for a few years and yeah, it's been very validating, this book. I've also like self-published it outside of kind of the traditional means. So, yeah, it's like kind of my indie a- author era as well.

• 42:03Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so here for it. Also, my brain's jumping all about the gaff, but you mentioned I F S therapy. We did an episode for anyone listening who's interested with Gabby Bernstein. Last summer, I'm gonna just wildly stab at that date. Um, all about I F S, because she wrote a book about it. And I'd never heard of it before and it is fascinating. So for anyone listening who thinks, what is it? How could it help me? That's a really good episode as a bit of an introduction to it. Um, Emma Gannon, where would you say your happy place is?

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Oh, um, I would say the armchair that I referenced in my office. It's just this big, comfortable, stripy chair and I just will read my books in there. Cause that's the other thing I used to do as a kid, read all the time. And I just love having a whole day reading now. It feels really rebellious.

• 42:54Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  To just turn my phone off and read all day.

• 42:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  I know you're the same.

• 42:58Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, sadly, it is rebellious and it shouldn't be. It's like the loveliest thing to do for yourself is just to shut everyone out and do something you love.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:07Fearne Cotton?

  We're also making a happy place playlist with songs that make you feel happy. What would you put on that playlist?

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Oh God, how many do you want?

• 43:16Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, as many as you want. Sam Claflin gave us two. You can, it can be one, it could be ten.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Um, okay. What about the new Harry Styles song?

• 43:25Fearne Cotton?

  I've not heard it.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  It's so good.

• 43:27Fearne Cotton?

  Is it?

• 43:28Speaker 02

  It's very like, I'm in a tent at Glastonbury.

• 43:30Fearne Cotton?

  Love.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  He's very cool, isn't he?

• 43:32Fearne Cotton?

  He's so cool.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Um, I also wanna fit Lily Atlin on there. The new album, like the, the classics on the new album, but also I was re-listening to her old albums. Do you remember that song, Now You're a Window Shopper? Oh, you have to listen to it. It's so good.

• 43:47Fearne Cotton?

  We'll put it on there.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Put it on.

• 43:49Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really fun.

• 43:50Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, amazing. Emma, I think what you're doing is fantastic. I loved this book so much. I've taken so much from it and I know that everyone who's in the Happy Place Book Club will feel exactly the same. So thank you for writing it.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 44:04Fearne Cotton?

  And good luck with it.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 44:05Fearne Cotton?

  Thanks, Emma. I bloody love chatting to Emma. I loved it so much. I love everything about Emma. She's just one of those people that radiates good vibes. And have I ever needed to read a book more? No. I still push myself and push myself, even when I'm on my knees, I'm very, very bad at giving myself rest, or even the opportunity just to slow the hell down. So this book will remain nearby because I need to reread sections of it quite literally constantly. By the way, there's going to be a link to the episode where Emma came on the show quite a few years ago now, actually, in the show notes, if you want to listen back to that one. Right, come on then. What are we reading in March? Well, if you don't very

• 44:48Fearne Cotton?

  well mind, we're going to read my new book, Likeable. I really hope that that's okay, but I do feel very passionately about this subject matter. My new book is called Likeable because I spent years and years trying to be the most likeable person, very much at the cost of many things, at times my mental health, my physical health, my stress levels, and actually, how much I showed up just as myself. And I think I've realised in my 40s that I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to be people pleasing constantly so everyone likes me, but then I go home and feel shit about myself. That seems to

• 45:28Fearne Cotton?

  be a topsy-turvy way of living. So in this book, I very much tackle these themes head on. I first came up with the idea when I was in therapy because I was yabbering on, kind of people pleasing my therapist, and she said to me, she kind of stopped me in my tracks and went, Fern, how important is it that I like you? And my response was to cry. I just wept and I was like, why am I crying at the questioning from my therapist? This is just a bizarre reaction to be having. And it's, I realised in that moment, it's because I realised I deeply cared if she liked me or not. And I deeply cared if everybody

• 46:11Fearne Cotton?

  on the planet liked me or not, which is absurd. So writing this book helped me tackle all of that. And I've truly Tackled it head on and I don't feel anywhere near like that anymore. And I really hope that you can read the book and feel alleviated from that pressure to people please too. I really, really do. There's lots of memoiry bits in there, maybe some tips, I'd be as bold to say. It's out on the 12th of March and I would just love it if you would come along and join the chat on Instagram. It's happy place book club and you can tell me what you think, whether I like it or not. Until next time, a massive thank you again to Emma, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you bookworms are the best.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab

• 48:33Speaker 04

  and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer. That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 48:47Speaker 05

  Help, I sexted my boss is the podcast where manners... Meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson. I'm Jordan North. And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life. William's the arbiter of etiquette. And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang. So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help, I Sexted My Boss. Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday. On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Just search Sexted. Be warned, it's a bit rude.