Stop Trying to Become Someone New: Get Past Constant Comparison and Return to What Works For You | Sam Sanders

What if the most meaningful thing you did for your mental health wasn't something new — but a return to what already brings you joy? Dan recently sat down with journalist and broadcaster Sam Sanders on the Sam Sanders Show https://www.kcrw.com/shows/the-sam-sanders-show/latest to explore exactly that idea. Sam has a concept he calls "modern scriptures": the movies, albums, and TV shows you return to again and again because they ground you, center you, and remind you what matters. Dan shares the pop culture that never fails to lift his spirits — and along the way, the two get into why beauty and art are actually central to human flourishing, why Ferris Bueller is more Buddhist than you might think, and what the research says about making resolutions stick — including the one upstream habit that makes everything else easier. The Sam Sanders Show is a co-production of KCRW and Sam Sanders Productions. Sign up for Sam's newsletter https://www.kcrw.com/culture/shows/the-sam-sanders-show for behind-the-scenes extras from every episode. Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Join Dan and Emmy Award-winning journalist Allison Gilbert at 92NY on May 17th for a live conversation about how mindfulness can deepen connection and combat loneliness, available in person and via streaming. Register here. https://www.92ny.org/event/dan-harris-with-allison-gilbert Join Dan, Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren for Meditation Party, a 3-day immersive retreat at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, NY, October 16–18, 2026. Register here. https://www.eomega.org/workshops/meditation-party#9851 To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:18Dan Harris?

  Hey, hey, how we doing? I think quite commonly, when we contemplate the various levers we could pull to upgrade our mental health to get happier, we consider things like sleep, exercise, meditation, et cetera. But there's a ton of evidence to suggest that aesthetic experiences, i.e. beauty, are also extremely powerful ways to boost your well-being. This could be nature, but also, of course, art. And not just fine art that you see in museums, I'm talking about movies, music, TV shows, the stuff that I personally love. So today, we're going to play you a conversation between me and my friend, Sam, who I'll tell you about in a second, about which pieces of art reliably produce happiness and meaning for us.

• 1:01Dan Harris?

  The friend in question is Sam Sanders, who is the host of The Sam Sanders Show. I should say that we initially recorded this conversation that you're about to hear for Sam's show back at around New Year's, but we're dropping it for you here because we think you'll like it and also because we think you might want to check out Sam's show, which I highly recommend. He's awesome, as you'll hear. Sam has a term for the pieces of art, music, TV, or film that we return to again and again. He calls them "modern scriptures." So you're going to hear us discuss our "modern scriptures." Side note, I'm recording this after several days of being alone in our house. My wife and son are overseas. I've been going back to old movies in the evening, specifically the Godfather movies

• 1:46Dan Harris?

  and also some Martin Scorsese stuff, which I know just totally reveals my age, but those are definitely modern scriptures for me, those old mafia movies and organized crime films. I can get totally sucked up into those. Anyway, Sam and I don't talk about those specifically, but I do mention many, many other modern scriptures of mine, and we hear about his. It's also a wide-ranging conversation that we get into why Instagram is reliably making me miserable and why I deleted it, what the research actually says about making resolutions stick. We recorded this close to New Year's, but this is true for anybody ever trying to form a habit. And we also talk about Sam's genuinely moving theory about why the act of return Might be the most underrated practice there is.

• 2:31Dan Harris?

  Okay, just a few quick things to say before we dive in here. This is the last day of a challenge that we're running over on the 10% with Dan Harris Meditation app. The challenge has been called Even You Can Meditate. It's been awesome. Don't worry, though, if you missed it, you can still access all of the great meditations from the challenge and much more. Head on over to danharris.com to download the app. Also, I've got two live in-person events coming up. On May 17th, I'll be at the 92nd Street Y in New York City. I'll guide a meditation and take your questions. And coming up in October, it's the annual workshop I do with 7A Silasi and Jeff Warren, meditation party, October 16th through 18th at the Omega Institute in upstate New York. I'll put links to both of these events in the show notes.

• 3:15Dan Harris?

  Okay, long intro, sorry. My conversation with Sam Sanders coming up after this. If you care about supporting independent media and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit. And not for nothing, it also helps us grow.

• 3:59Dan Harris?

  And all of these things take about 30 seconds and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission and I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show. If you care about supporting independent media and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox. Box at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening

• 4:44Dan Harris?

  or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit. And not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission. And I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show.

• 5:20Dan Harris?

  I'm thinking about deleting Instagram.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  If I watch Instagram for 45 minutes or half an hour or 15 minutes, I'm convinced that everyone else who has a smartphone is making their own original music and music videos and building their own furniture and cooking all their own food. Like it, it makes me feel grossly inadequate.

• 5:42Dan Harris?

  So would you consider deleting it?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  No, not yet. Not until I.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Hey y'all, Sam here. So can I tell you a little secret? I mean, it's not really a secret. I just haven't talked about it too much just yet. Anywho, the secret is that I went to a silent meditation retreat last year. I know this surprises me as well because my job is literally to talk. This retreat was five days in upstate New York and I had to be totally quiet around other people who I couldn't talk to or even look directly in the eye. But to my surprise, it was great. And it got me thinking a lot about how I can bring mindfulness into my life in all kinds of ways and even bring mindfulness into this show.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  So let's say I am dedicating this episode to that intention, but we're going to do it in a roundabout way. We're not going to just sit in silence and meditate this entire episode. Me and my very special guest are going to share some pop culture recommendations that help us stay grounded and centered and happy and mindful and all those good things. I call these recommendations modern scriptures because you can return to them over and over again like scripture. Get it? To have this conversation and share some modern pop culture scriptures, I'm joined by the most mindful podcaster I know. His name is Dan Harris. Dan is a former TV news anchor for shows like Nightline and Good Morning America.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  But for many years now, Dan has become somewhat of a meditation and mindfulness expert. His very popular podcast is called 10% Happier with Dan Harris. And this show has all these really deep and interesting conversations about mental health and the science of the mind and how we can all live better lives. This show is really great, and I say that not just because I was on there once. It's a great show. Anywho, Dan Harris joins me today to share his modern scriptures. So let's get into it.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  I am going to tell you why I brought you on and my idea for the episode. But first, Dan Harris, please tell our listeners and viewers who you are and what you do.

• 8:04Dan Harris?

  Okay, the brief bio. My name is Dan Harris. I used to be a network news anchor. I was an anchorman on ABC News and a correspondent, war correspondent, in fact, for 20 years. And then I had a panic attack. This is probably the best, the thing I am best known for in my entire TV career was freaking out in front of an audience of 5 million people on Good Morning America. I had a panic attack. And that led me to meditation. And then I wrote a book about that called 10% Happier. And that book, which Barbara Walters confidently told me, "Don't quit your day job."

• 8:47Dan Harris?

  That book got sufficiently popular that I was able to quit my day job. And now I'm like a full-time, I don't know what I am, happiness expert or meditation evangelist, something in that zone.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  I like that. I like that. And you have a podcast called 10% Happier. You have an app as well.

• 9:06Dan Harris?

  I have an app. It's called 10% with Dan Harris for legal reasons right now that I won't go and get into, but eventually it will be called 10% happier.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And I've had the privilege of getting to know you through your work. I was on your show, gosh, a while back now, and I had the honor of being able to meditate with you IRL a while back, and that was just a treat.

• 9:28Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  And so, yeah.

• 9:31Dan Harris?

  I was very proud of you. I don't think you had done much meditation before you showed up for a little retreat that with me and a few other friends, and you did a great job. It was a very brave thing to do, and you did a great job.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  You say little. It was several days in silence. I don't think I told you, but you know, there were moments where we could go outside to meditate and have what y'all called walking meditations. And I was so, one day I was so discombobulated and missed talking and the sound of my own voice, I walked further than I was supposed to on the grounds, and when I got far enough to where no one could hear me, I just yelled out to the woods, "I'm talking."

• 10:14Speaker 01

  And then I came back.

• 10:16Dan Harris?

  Little act of rebellion. Nice.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  But I made it, and it felt really good. And yeah, it's, it's, I have been getting back into my meditation practice since the retreat, so I'm very grateful for it. It was fun.

• 10:28Dan Harris?

  It's all just part of my grand plan to make you part of my cult.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Done. I'm in. Yeah. What are the do's? Do we get uniforms? I'm ready.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  So I had this idea for us. I've been wanting to figure out a way to get you on this show because I'm such a fan, and I think the work that you do and the words that you speak help people who hear them. And I was like, all right, he's into mindfulness. My whole bread and butter with this show is entertainment, books, and TV, and movies, and music, and the things that we like to entertain us. And I was like, what if we could find some way to talk about both of those things? And it reminded me of a conceit that I have used in previous podcast episodes before. I like to have people share with me what I call modern scriptures. And these are things in the culture.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Books or movies or TV or whatever, music, whatever, that you return to often or frequently and they ground you in some way or make you happy or give you a good cry or whatever. This whole thing began for me when I read in 2018 a New York Times profile of Melissa McCarthy. It was written by Taffy Brodesser Akner. And I read it and by the end of it, I was in tears. It was really crazy. And then I noticed every few months, when I was having a bad day, I would go back and read this article and feel better. The entire premise of the piece is that Melissa McCarthy is a comedian and an artist that lives above the fray

• 12:10Speaker 01

  of daily life, of modern life, of the news, of headlines. And she centers and grounds herself so much in her comedic work and her work of emotion that it helps her to literally fly above it. And the scene at the open and close of the piece is Melissa McCarthy at one of those fake skydiving gyms where the air blows you up. And the metaphor is that she floats above it all. You know, it's really sweet, really beautiful. But it reminds me whenever I read it to preserve whatever special place in our hearts that resides for art and for creativity and for things that bring us purpose and meaning and that we have to have things that we love, that we hold on to, that no one else can take from us. So when I noticed that I would always revisit that article,

• 12:55Speaker 01

  that profile, I said, what are some other things that I go back to in the culture that bring me joy? And then I began to ask friends and it became a thing that I would talk about in podcasts. And so I was hoping to have you, Dan, share some modern scriptures of your own with us this episode. Talk about why you like them, what they mean to you. And maybe in the midst of all that, we will give some folks some good recommendations of things that could make them a little bit happier too. Maybe even 10% happier.

• 13:26Dan Harris?

  I love that conceit. And just to say, I don't have the data right here with me, but.

• 13:35Dan Harris?

  In the 10 years of hosting my podcast and interviewing tons and tons of researchers, I've had a lot of people come into my world who've made the case that that access to beauty,

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:50Dan Harris?

  to aesthetic experiences, it's a key part of human flourishing. And the other case that I've heard made is that you can use art, specifically music is powerful in this way, to shift your mood, the way you were doing with that, with Taffy's piece on Melissa McCarthy. So there's a, there's a lot here from my perspective.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it. Well, with that, let's get into your modern scriptures and I'll share a few of my own. You sent us the list. I'm gonna just select from this list and have you start by talking to us about Ferris Bueller's Day Off. This is a film that you said that you returned to and it brings you joy. Talk about it.

• 14:38Dan Harris?

  Yeah, so I saw it when it came out, I'm revealing, I'm showing my age here, but I was, I was a, not quite a grown ass man, but like, you know, close enough when that came out. I was, I was a teenager and loved it in, in real time. I don't think I saw it again until I had a child. I have a son who's 11 and we have watched this movie probably five or six times together. So, he loves it so much, Alexander does, that he recently had a birthday, just a couple of weeks ago, and we went to one of those movie theaters where you can, where they deliver you a meal while you're in the movie theater and you can recline in the seats and he, you

• 15:23Dan Harris?

  could pick the movie. And so he and his friends watched Ferris Bueller and

• 15:28Speaker 01

  The kids are all right. Wow. I love this.

• 15:31Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes. A lot of the kids hadn't seen it, but everybody loved it. And I thought I would, this is so embarrassing, but I kind of thought like, I've seen this movie enough, I'm probably gonna work and I'll go and go out in the hallway and work while watching this movie.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  It's your child's birthday.

• 15:46Dan Harris?

  But I didn't, because of, for that exact reason, this is my child's birthday. You know, for the fifth time in, in probably two years. It is a perfect movie. It is so tight and every beat in the movie is perfect. There and not just from a writing standpoint and from the standpoint of narrative propulsion. It is a flawless frothy but flawless work of art. And I'll say notwithstanding its froth, I mean, it is light. It has an incredible message. You remember Ferris's tagline is.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  I said it before and I'll say it again. Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

• 16:28Dan Harris?

  It's a very Buddhist sentiment.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  I love this.

• 16:32Dan Harris?

  Very Buddhist.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Ferris Bueller's Day Off is Buddhist. I love this. I like how, because I watched it a lot in my youth because TBS would play it all the time. All the time and I would watch it whenever it came on. And I remember that scene towards the end. Where the really, really expensive vintage car just like crashes out of its garage. And is like destroyed. And in that moment, you like take a beat. And then I think the characters involved and kind of just like, okay, the car is gone now. The car is gone now and move on. And I don't know, I fixate on that part of it. A lot when I watched that movie. And it's like this reminder, it's like, it's never really about the car. A car is a car.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Like there are these things that we fixate on and hold on to. I guess when you look at it and when these things break and when these things fall apart. You're still okay. Your dad's not going to physically kill you. The car is gone, it's fine. I don't know. That scene for me sticks out the most.

• 17:31Dan Harris?

  Well, also Buddhist. Um, you know, one of the central tenets, as you know, having sat through a a non trivial amount of silence with me and a bunch of Buddhist teachers. You know, one of the, one of the things you see, if you stop and look at your mind. Is that things are changing all the time. And this is not my analogy, but you know, one of the most reliable ways to suffer. Is to cling too tightly in a world of unremitting, non negotiable change. And if you cling too tightly. This is the analogy, you will get rope burn.

• 18:10Dan Harris?

  And so what we see when that fancy car goes flying out of the glass enclosed garage in which it's been kept at like a museum piece. What you see is, okay, well, um.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 18:23Dan Harris?

  This is the truth and, and we have to deal with what is, what is now reality.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Thank you, Ferris Bueller.

• 18:30Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  I love it. I have a pick for a modern scripture. And I was thinking about Ferris Bueller and that made me think of another movie that I recently saw, but as soon as I saw it, I said, I'm gonna be watching this at least once a year for the next several years. There is this new musical, not quite biopic that is in theaters now, had a big marketing push around Christmas, stars Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson. It is a musical called Song Song Blue. So in this film, the two of them play average Joes who have made a Neil Diamond tribute band that gets pretty big.

• 19:15Speaker 03

  Look at that, it's like shimmering, you know?

• 19:16Speaker 04

  You know, my hair guy does clothes too.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  Awesome. You know, Neil is special and I just want everyone to get that feeling I get when I listen to America and Forever Blue Jeans.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  Sweet Caroline.

• 19:27Speaker 03

  Sweet Caroline, yeah, but I'm never gonna be the real McCoy. I mean, I don't really look like Neil, I don't even really sound like Neil. And I'm, I gotta be Neil, but I've just gotta be me too.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, you don't wanna be a Neil Diamond impersonator, you wanna be a Neil Diamond interpreter.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  I was looking for the right way to say it and you just came right out and said it.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  The commercials for it are laughable, it looks like a farce, you're like, this can't be real, who cooked up this idea? Fire all the executives. It looks so cheesy, so cheesy. But something about it draws you in and then you watch it and you realize, one, Kate Hudson deserves an Oscar. And two, you're a Neil Diamond fan, even if you don't even know it. But what I love about this movie and why I want to keep returning to it is that it is a film that, as a friend told me, feels like a movie should feel. At every step, it hits the beats that a melodrama of that sort should. At the moment you're supposed to laugh, you laugh. When it's time to cry, you cry.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  And at the end, they put a nice bow on it and you're like, yes, it feels fulfilling. Um, I watched it once, cried like a baby. And then over the course of New Year's, hanging with friends, I said, I have a great plan for us tonight. We're gonna watch this movie and cry like a baby together.

• 20:45Dan Harris?

  Hmm.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Um, and I just love it so. And it's one of those movies that you put on when you don't even know that you need a good cry, and you get one. And it's this reminder that like, sometimes the well that I want to return to is a reliable well. I want to play the song that takes me there. I want to watch the film that gets me there. I want to like, tap into those things that I know are going to give me this emotional catharsis that will feel good. And my newest, uh, of that ilk is Songs on Blue. It's a really good movie.

• 21:19Dan Harris?

  Okay, I'm convinced. I'm gonna see it.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:21Dan Harris?

  Uh, I had-

• 21:22Speaker 01

  But the trailers are crazy.

• 21:23Dan Harris?

  Well, so I had seen trailers and I had that reaction. I thought this looks ridiculous, but, uh, Kate Hudson, I think is an under-heralded actor.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  She can sing too. Yeah.

• 21:34Dan Harris?

  Can she really? My son and I have been watching, um, the Knives Out movies, and she's really good in the second one.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Very good. She's very good. Fun fact, she has a band outside of her film work. She just, she sings around LA. I kind of want to become her groupie now. I'm really obsessed. It's, she's really good. And there's this scene where she, uh, has this really like, tight to the camera monologue in this delectable Midwestern accent. And you just watch her do it and you're like, oh, give her the Oscar right now. Right now. Yeah, yeah.

• 22:05Dan Harris?

  So you, but I, I don't want to gloss over something you said there. For you, there's a well that you want to return to frequently of, give me a good cry, give me some catharsis.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, there's, there's, there's certain things where you go to them and you know that they'll like, release the pressure valve. This, this movie will give me a good cry. This song will give me a good, ah, this movie, this film will make me laugh. This TV show. Like, I can always like go back to The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and have a good belly laugh and just relax. Or like the, the film Rat Race, which is not a great movie, but it's a terribly bad, bad movie. Um, it's got Whoopi Goldberg and Mr. Bean and it's a caper film with a bunch of poop jokes and it's stupid. But I watch it and whenever I watch it, like the rest of the world's problems just kind of roll away. I think with Song Song Blue, it's like, I want art

• 23:03Speaker 01

  sometimes that will reliably take me out of whatever place I'm in. And usually it's either a good laugh or a good cry. Song Song Blue gives you both. They didn't pay me to say this. Uh, but yeah, you know, there's, there's some, sometimes art can be transcendent and I like that.

• 23:22Dan Harris?

  I agree. I don't know, and I, I say this as a kind of self criticism. I don't know that I'm ever looking for a cry, although I love a good one.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  In traffic, oh, that's the best.

• 23:35Dan Harris?

  I see this as, as a sign of your being more evolved than I am and, and it may be, you know, whatever version of masculinity.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Fundamentally broken.

• 23:46Dan Harris?

  No, I don't, I don't hear that as fundamentally broken at all. Um, but I will say that I, I was about to kind of criticize myself for not being somebody who cries that frequently, but as I've gotten older,

• 23:59Dan Harris?

  and you know, probably under the influence of a lot of, you know, meditation practice. The TikTok um algorithm has learned that I like to watch an emotional reunion. And I will cry at those.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Like a pet owner reunion or a people reunion?

• 24:18Dan Harris?

  Pet owner, um soldier and his or her family, soldier and his or her pet. Yes, uh best friends who haven't seen each other in a long time and the spouse arranges a reunion. Uh parents, especially when a parent sees a child, there's when a parent sees a child they haven't seen in a long time. Those videos kill me. I've watched the same videos over and over and over. Um, and they get me every time.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  All right, time for a break. When we come back, more modern pop culture scriptures with Dan Harris, host of the podcast 10% happier. Stick around.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  I want you to talk a little more about another pick that you sent to us.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Fleetwood Mac, you picked two albums from Fleetwood Mac that you return to and they make you feel good. Rumors, of course, we all agree, but you also chose, and I'm with you on this, their much maligned follow up, Tusk.

• 25:22Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Are you a Tusk defender?

• 25:25Dan Harris?

  It was maligned, I'm definitely a Tusk defender. I mean, it was maligned the way The Beatles' White Album was maligned in the time as being uh overly um maybe self indulgent, that too many songs, it could have been one record instead of a double record.

• 25:41Dan Harris?

  And sure, yeah, there's some songs on on on that record that I don't love, but there are some incredible songs on there. And now I'm really, what I'm about to say is going to expose the fallacy of the story I'm telling myself about not being sufficiently emotional. Because for me, Fleetwood Mac makes me quite emotional because I was raised. With those records.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 26:08Dan Harris?

  And it so brings me back to when my parents were healthy.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Oh, that's beautiful. Would they dance with it at home and vibe to it on a Saturday morning?

• 26:18Dan Harris?

  I don't remember my parents dancing much. Um, I danced to it.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:24Dan Harris?

  But my parent, my parents were recovering hippies. Um, well, full on hippies, really. I mean, if you ask my mom, you know, everybody of that generation, the boomers, you know, where were you when a man landed on the moon? My mom's answer, which is a legit answer, was I was at a Black Panther rally. Um, and for the avoidance of doubt, my, my mom is, is not black. Uh, so she, she was really, uh, she was very politic. Both my parents were very politically attuned in the late sixties. My dad got drafted and managed to, um, be able to serve in DC instead of having to go to Vietnam. And, and all of the music of that time, we were raised with, now that Fleetwood Mac comes in the mid seventies.

• 27:08Dan Harris?

  But they were still kind of in that mode, even though at that time they were no longer kids. But I was a kid and so those, like the opening sounds, the opening chords, I guess is the right term.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:20Dan Harris?

  Of the first song on Rumors, I think it's.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Secondhand news.

• 27:23Dan Harris?

  Secondhand news.

• 27:50Dan Harris?

  It just always gives me the full body kind of tingle and the, it brings me back. To, yeah, being a kid and my, you know, my parents, you've gone through some of this yourself. And my, my parents are still alive, but they're in a very different condition than they were when I was a kid. And I, they were kind of my alpha and omega, you know, like I really looked up to them. And now I'm more of the parent. And so that's been dizzying, head spinning for me. So the music is poignant in that way.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, and I love Fleetwood Mac for so many reasons, but I think that they speak to, and actually I did a whole episode about their song Dreams for this music podcast, one song. And my biggest takeaway with Dreams is that like, they are a band that managed to work together in spite of all of their fighting and still make good art. So Dreams was Stevie Nicks's answer to Lindsey Buckingham's You Can Go Your Own Way. They're both two different songs about the same breakup.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  And imagine two lovers who were broken up that are in a band, making songs about the breakup on their own and then saying as a band will do them together. That's what they did. And in the making of Dreams, Lindsey really kind of helped Stevie fix the song. It wasn't ready when she brought it to them and he helped. And then they sung it together and made it art. I find that so inspiring. There are other parts of them that I hear express emotionally, like on Tusk, if you listen to the song, What Makes You Think You're The One.

• 29:30Dan Harris?

  I love that song.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Lindsey Buckingham is hitting that snare with the rage of all the ancestors. And they're like, oh, they are working through a breakup on wax and they're still gonna work together.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  I just find that a really, really great north star for creativity. If we can work together and be creative together, even in spite of all of these things, maybe it can still be good art. Like, they stuck through it. That's wild to me.

• 30:18Dan Harris?

  I think, I think Lindsey Buckingham might have also been pissed about her, about Stevie's solo career taking off in ways that were eclipsing his and the band.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And like, you just hear rage in there, and they make it art. And you hear sadness in there, and they make it art. And it's like, I don't know, we, whenever we talk about Fleetwood Mac, we talk about all the breakups, all the breakups, all the breakups. And I'm like, oh, the story of Fleetwood Mac is that they stuck together through the breakups. They kept making stuff. That is remarkable to me. And yeah, Tusk is so underrated. I love Tusk.

• 30:55Dan Harris?

  Another thing about Tusk is that Lindsey Buckingham, at that time, and this is true for Paul McCartney, who at that time was a solo, while he was in Wings, but also making-

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Which I like.

• 31:09Dan Harris?

  I like Wings a lot.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Justice for Wings.

• 31:11Dan Harris?

  I've been thinking a lot about Wings, because my wife, for Christmas, gave me a book that came out in November, which is kind of an oral history of Wings. So I've been reading it and listening to a lot of their records. But Paul McCartney, in his Wings work in the late 80s, and then a little bit in the early, sorry, in the late 70s, and then a little bit in the early 80s when he was solo. Both he and Lindsey Buckingham were influenced at that time by punk music. And now their, their music clearly is not punk, but if you listen to Tusk, and if you listen to some of the songs that Wings made on their last two records, they're, they're channeling little bits of that spirit of, of punk.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Wow. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Justice for Tusk, justice for Wings.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  So my next pick is a music pick as well.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I am of the controversial opinion that Aretha Franklin's best work was her gospel work. And there is an incredible live album she did in Watts way back in the day called Amazing Grace. She recorded this album at a church with a choir, with a live audience. And there's a video documentary where you can watch the whole thing. Her father, a minister, introduces her. And her organist and choir director for the entire album is the gospel legend, James Cleveland. The entire thing is one of the most captivating performances you'll ever see in your life.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  The entire thing is one of the most captivating performances you'll ever see in your life. And there are these just little sprinkles that make it even more special. So they kind of just had a regular church service and recorded it. It was like a choir concert that they recorded and people could just come and show up. And as they pan through the audience, you see these wonderfully beautifully dressed black people. But then they get way to the back and the camera goes long and it goes to the back of the church. And there's a white guy sitting there just bobbing his head. And you're like, who is it? How did he get there? And they zoom in closer. Guess who it is? It's Mick Jagger. Mick Jagger is there soaking it all up because he knows there's no greater standard bearer

• 33:55Speaker 01

  for good music than Aretha Franklin. And it's funny, all through his career, all through the Rolling Stones' career, you can hear the ways in which they are directly influenced by black music, by gospel music. To see him in that room during this recording is really kind of beautiful. Another fun fact for me, watching this thing, this is one of the best-reviewed gospel albums of all time. And the open secret of the album and of the music itself is that James Cleveland, the choir director and organist, he was very, very gay. Very, very gay, had a lot of male lovers in the church. But as someone who grew up queer in the church, I was always wondering, is there space for me in this place? Is there space for me?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And in adulthood, I finally watched the doc of this Aretha album and saw James Cleveland right there playing the organ the whole time. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's always been space for us. Thankfully, you know, I'm allowed to live a more open life than he was allowed to live back then. But it's a wonderful reminder that, you know, queer people have been everywhere all the time and always will be. It's also just, it is Aretha at her peak. You can even watch this thing on mute, Dan. It's so gorgeous. Yeah, Aretha Franklin, amazing grace. The album and the live documentary always works for all ages, all people, all the time.

• 35:20Dan Harris?

  I feel like that's a great thing for me to watch with my son. I'm curious, are you still an active churchgoer?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Not really. I go here and there. I go when there's a funeral. I think about church a lot. I've thought about going to some more frequently, but I think I kind of just like live in church in my head. And so when I want to go back to those feelings and to those sounds, one of the things that I'll play. Is Aretha Franklin's album Amazing Grace. I tell people, and as someone who grew up playing the saxophone in the church band, with most churches, the better the music, the more harmful the doctrine. And so when I've thought about going back to church, I want one that's welcome and opening

• 36:09Speaker 01

  and affirming. And then you end up with these really well-intentioned unitarians who can barely play the acoustic guitar. And I need a little, I need the good stuff. So, anyone listening, if you can offer up a church that is wonderful and welcome and opening, but has really good gospel music too, let me know and I'll go. Let me know.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  All right, time for a break. When we come back, more modern pop culture scriptures with Dan Harris, host of the podcast 10% Happier. Stick around.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  I want to highlight another pick that you sent us for a piece of pop culture, Dan Harris, that helps you feel good and that you can go back to a lot. You recommended Parks and Rec. I like that one, too. Tell me why you like it.

• 37:07Dan Harris?

  Kind of got me through the pandemic, actually.

• 37:12Dan Harris?

  You know, it's a show, well, let me just say, I then re-watched it maybe twice with my son.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 37:19Dan Harris?

  Who loves sitcoms.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:21Dan Harris?

  So we've, we've re-watched that and 30 Rock and Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

• 37:28Dan Harris?

  But Parks and Rec is our favorite. And to me, it's really a show about love. You know, if you, if you, if you watch The Office, for example, it's, it's quite mean.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  It's a show about hate. They all hate each other.

• 37:44Dan Harris?

  Yeah, they all hate each other. But Parks and Rec really is not, it is about friendship and romantic love and romantic friendship. And you feel the warmth alongside the humor. The humor is not overly cutting.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  I agree. And it has something that I think Abbott Elementary has. It has professionals who have chosen vocations that will never make them rich, but they chose it because they believe in the mission. Leslie Knope actually believes in the power of local government. The teachers in Abbott Elementary believe in the power of public education. It is really nice to see that on screen. I've talked at length with other thinkers about culture and entertainment. A lot of TV that we watch now, everyone's rich.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  And so it's refreshing when you see people who are solidly middle-class or working-class, who have chosen a vocation because they want to help people. And I feel that in Parks and Rec all the time, and I like that. I like it a lot.

• 38:46Dan Harris?

  That's a great insight. Yeah, so it's not only about the love among the characters on screen. It's about their collective love of the community.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally. I'm gonna offer one off of that, just because I want folks to watch this show. It deserves more love.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Speaking of people on screen following a vocation because they believe in it, I have to recommend, as a modern scripture, this HBO show that did not get enough love when it was on. Went on for three seasons. I think it was an adaptation of a British show. It's called Getting On. Have you ever watched this show?

• 39:25Dan Harris?

  No.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  It's very good. It's got Alex Borstein, Niecy Nash, and Laurie Metcalf playing nurses in a geriatric unit. And it's equal parts drama and comedy. But half the show, you're just watching these really well-intentioned nurses deal with calamity every day and kind of just like live, laugh, love through it. Um, you've never seen Nisi Nash at a more understated and sublime performance.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  And you've never laughed harder, uh, watching Alex Borstein be this nurse who really means well, but is kind of a mess. It is such a good show and it's another one of those reminders that like, you know, people don't go into things like nursing to get rich and famous. They go into it because they believe in it. And so watching people believe in something and pursue it in spite of the crazy of it is really great. And they're just like, I mean, they're all, all three of them. Laurie Metcalf and Nisi Nash and Alex Borstein at the top of their game. Just iconic performances. Everyone should know this show. Everyone should know this show.

• 40:36Dan Harris?

  I'm legit taking notes as I'm listening to you. I'm gonna watch all of these. Can I watch Getting On with my son? Is it appropriate for an 11 year old, you think?

• 40:47Speaker 01

  A lot of the show deals with aging and death, often in a funny way, but you're watching these nurses deal with people who are like slowly dying. So it might welcome those kinds of conversations if, if you're open to having them with your kid. I also think there's, there's profanity, like they cuss on that show. It's definitely HBO.

• 41:05Dan Harris?

  No, profanity is not a problem in this house. Um, I try to minimize the sex, drugs and violence with him, but, uh, the, the death part is, and the, the medical stuff, I'm actually, I think that can be, just for my son, every kid's different. I used to take him with me. I used to be a hospice volunteer and I would take him with me.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  I didn't know that. What?

• 41:28Dan Harris?

  Yeah. So in fact, so there was this one patient that I was very close with, who's no longer with us, but this guy got brought to the hospice, told he had three days to live and he lived there for six years.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yo, he's the mayor of the hospice at that point. Oh my goodness.

• 41:42Dan Harris?

  Ronnie, uh, was the mayor of the hospice and I was very close with Ronnie and Alexander used to come with me and hang out with Ronnie. And then Ronnie had a goddaughter who was a year older than Alexander and they would have playdates running around the hospice. So I don't have any problem showing him. This sounds like a show he could watch.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  It's, yeah, it's a really good show. I'm very curious. You are talking a lot in this episode with me about watching TV and movies with your son?

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I'm betting there are a bunch of listeners who would love to know any insights you've gained by watching stuff with your kid and thinking about it and thinking about how he consumes it. You know, I remember watching stuff with my mom when I was a kid, or my dad. With my dad, he was gonna fall asleep and my mom was just gonna like watch to make sure that we weren't seeing sex. So, "Cover your eyes, cover your eyes, cover your eyes." It seems as if, or it sounds like, you have an interesting relationship with your kid around watching stuff together. What does it look and feel like for y'all? I'm very curious.

• 42:49Dan Harris?

  I mean, I definitely try to be a little vigilant on the sex stuff. The drugs part can lead to good conversations, actually. We have done very well with sitcoms. So, I mentioned Dirty Rock and we watched The Office and Brooklyn Nine-Nine and he loves Abbott Elementary. So, we've had a good luck with that. He loves series of movies. So, we watched the Now You See Me series. We watched the Ocean's Ocean's Eleven series. We watched Knives Out. We just started Avatar last night.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Godspeed.

• 43:28Dan Harris?

  So, yeah, that's gonna be, we only got through the first one. It's a tough slog. I suspect we have a tough slog ahead of us.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  My fun fact about Avatar is that I've fallen asleep at every viewing. I have not made it through a full Avatar in my lifetime and I've tried to watch them all. God bless those blue people, but yeah.

• 43:47Dan Harris?

  We'll see if I can, but that actually, you know, Avatar, the first one, which we watched last night, was a good, he was worried about some of the blue people, the Navi, I think. They have battle cries that he was worried it was cultural appropriation or racist for them to do, which then led to a whole conversation about, this is an analogy for indigenous people all over the world. So, you never know, like in any show, an opportunity can arise organically. My son hates to be lectured to or taught anything by me. But if it comes up in the course of a piece of pop culture, then he is open to it for

• 44:32Dan Harris?

  about 15 seconds.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  All right, that's something. Yeah, yeah. I find with kids, it's like, because I have kids in my life. A lot of times, the conversation that needs to be had will happen in a better way if they think the conversation was their idea.

• 44:45Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  So like, if you can wait for them to raise the question first, before you say, "Let's talk about this," it'll go better.

• 44:51Dan Harris?

  A hundred percent.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  I am very relieved to know that the kids are concerned with questions of appropriation. The kids are all right, as I said earlier. The kids are all right. I love that.

• 45:04Dan Harris?

  Well, what's interesting about this generation, my son's generation, which is Gen Alpha, there's a bit of reaction to the perceived political correctness of Gen Z and millennials. But that doesn't mean they're insensitive to this stuff. They just, they want to have the conversations with a little less stridency.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, less absolutism.

• 45:27Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  I'm assuming that they have rejected, quote-unquote, "cancel culture," which was never as dominant as we thought it was. But yeah, I think what I'm hearing is that, you know, the young folks are just kind of like, "Well, we can talk it out. Could be good."

• 45:42Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes. It's like, they want all of the respect and inclusion, my sense is, based on my son and his friends. They want the respect and the inclusion, and they want it to be okay for boys to cry and have therapists and all of that. I think they don't want as much of the soapbox as they perceive their elders to have.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree. Also, no one should stand on a soapbox. They're not meant for standing. Think about it. It's a soapbox. It's not for people to stand on. But I do want to ask you kind of an unrelated question to close our conversation. I was talking with a friend over the break, and they're like, "What's up in your new year? Do you have any interviews that you're looking forward to?" And I was like, yeah, you know, my first interview of the new year is gonna be with Dan Harris. I admire him so much. I think he's great. It's gonna be a great chat. And my friend who knows your work said, oh, that's great. You're gonna do a New Year's resolution episode with Dan Harris? And I said, ah, no, no, no, no, no, no.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna do that, cuz I've kinda given up on New Year's resolutions writ large. But I'm wondering, Dan Harris, someone who thinks a lot about spirituality and mindfulness and being a centered and whole human being. We are in January, this season of New Year's resolutions. A lot of folks are at the gym, or trying to not drink alcohol right now, or whatever. Do you have some central grounding principle around New Year's resolutions? And the New Year's resolution industrial complex, as I've come to see.

• 47:25Dan Harris?

  Historically, I've not been a big resolutions person. That being said, there is quite a bit of research to suggest that there's real power in what's known as the fresh start effect. So birthdays, even Mondays, or the start of a new month, but definitely the start of a new year can give people fuel to make change. It is also true nonetheless that by February, the vast majority of us will have bailed on our resolutions. And so that raises the question, like, what can you do to make these things actually stick? And there's, there are a few little guidelines. One is to have very specific resolutions. So instead of, I'm gonna get fit, I'm gonna go to the gym three times a week. It's much better.

• 48:09Dan Harris?

  Another is to start very, very small, sometimes absurdly small. There's a lot of evidence to show that. So for example, if your, your goal is to exercise or to run, starting by simply putting your sneakers by the door can be very powerful. If, if, if meditation is on your list, I often tell people, start with one minute. One minute really counts. Two other things to recommend in terms of helping you do this. Doing it with other people can be incredibly Powerful, a lot of evidence there that so-called social support helps people get over the hump. Because other people give you enthusiasm and accountability.

• 48:50Dan Harris?

  And then finally, and I think this is probably the most important, I think of what I'm about to tell you about as a as kind of the Uber or or upstream habit out of which all other habits can sustainably flow and it's self compassion. It's the ability to speak to yourself the way you would talk to a good friend. And the research is is very clear that if you can just learn to talk to yourself in a kinder way, you're more likely to reach your goals, whether it's resolutions or or whatever it is you're trying to do. I will finally just say that I'm not, even though I'm not a huge resolution person. I'm thinking about deleting Instagram.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Don't you kind of have to do that?

• 49:33Dan Harris?

  Well, I

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Someone do that for you?

• 49:36Dan Harris?

  Well, so that's been my story. I kind of have to do that. I need to, you know, I'm a creator or influencer or whatever the hell I am. And so I need to have a presence on social media.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:48Dan Harris?

  But I do have people on my team who are doing most of the work. And I have just noticed that the most reliable way to make myself unhappy is to open Instagram. And I'm not trying to run down Instagram in particular, but for me, it's just, it's so

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I get it.

• 50:08Dan Harris?

  ruthlessly effective at making me unhappy.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Same.

• 50:12Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  And I think it's because it like it immediately invites comparison.

• 50:16Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  You're comparing yourself to your friends and their stories. You're comparing yourself to the randos who come up on your for you page and in your scroll. And I'll find sometimes because I, my algorithm now gives me people who are making music and making art and making comedy. If I watch Instagram for 45 minutes or half an hour or 15 minutes, I'm convinced that everyone else who has a smartphone is making their own original music and music videos and building their own furniture and cooking all their own food. Like it, it makes me feel grossly inadequate. And I have to remind myself, no, like everyone's performing for that app and you should just put it down. But yeah, comparison immediately arises as soon as I open up Instagram, immediately.

• 51:03Dan Harris?

  So would you consider deleting it?

• 51:05Speaker 01

  No, not yet. Not until I I need to, okay, listen, KCRW, if you're gonna pay somebody to do my social, I'll quit Instagram. But until then, I gotta make some of this stuff myself. Someone else cuts the videos, I'll say that, but yeah, the updates and stuff come from me. But one day, one day, I would love to, and I've been trying to just build in activities in my day where a phone isn't involved. So two things I've done recently that have been really helpful. I put my phone in the trunk whenever I'm driving.

• 51:35Dan Harris?

  That's awesome.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  So before I start the car, the phone is not with me. It's with me, but like in the back of the car. So I'm not on Instagram at a red light, or I'm not stuck in traffic scrolling. It's separate. And that makes driving now a lot more meditative for me, which is great.

• 51:50Dan Harris?

  And safer.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  And safer, that's true. Yeah, yeah. And then two, I, um, I try to build in other activities where the phone is just not there. So every time I walk the dog, the phone's at home. When I walk the dog, it's me and Wesley Snipes the pit bull, and that's it. So that's been helpful.

• 52:09Dan Harris?

  Wesley Snipes the pit bull.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:11Dan Harris?

  I love pit bulls. Pit bulls are awesome.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Get one or two or three, they're the best, they're the best.

• 52:16Dan Harris?

  I have friend, two close friends of mine each have a pit bull. Beautiful, amazing dog.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're the sweetest, yes, yes. Uh, and then my last thought on resolutions, you know, I was thinking about this practice of modern scripture that I've been doing now for years. And I was thinking about it a lot in the context of the new year. And I had to like tell myself that a lot of what I do when I talk with folks about their ideas of modern scriptures, I'm doing something that has become for me, an everyday resolution that we have to remind ourselves is a resolution. The act of returning to things that bring us joy, to bring, to things that bring us solace, and to things that bring us peace, is a really big and powerful thing.

• 53:03Dan Harris?

  Yep.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  And finding those things and giving ourselves permission to return to them as needed. Can be revolutionary. And so I have to remind myself at the start of a new year, when everyone is resolving to become a new person, or to do new things, or to go into different directions, sometimes the act of return can be just as fulfilling. We already have things in our life that bring us joy, that bring us solace, that bring us peace. We already have people in our lives that help us and nurture us and love us. Returning to them, and to those ideas, and to those scriptures, or whatever they are, just doing that, it might not feel revolutionary, but it is edifying. And I have to remind myself, just, just return is enough sometimes.

• 53:49Dan Harris?

  It is literally revolutionary, because you are turning in place to remember and look back at a thing you know is good for you. And so, and that's the theme of this conceit, that, that is the conceit that you've come up with for this episode, which I love. It's brilliant. I appreciate you.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  I love it. Listen, we have resolved to return. Thank you for this chat, Dan Harris.

• 54:10Dan Harris?

  My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me to do it. Any chance to hang out with you, I will take it.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Likewise, likewise. Listeners, thank you so much for listening today. If you like what you've heard, tell your friends about us in real life. Help us spread the good word of this show. Also, if you want, leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and subscribe to this show there as well. This show was a co-production between Sam Sanders Productions and KCRW. We are distributed nationally by PRX. Our showrunner is Tyler Green. Our senior producer is Bennett Purser. Andrea Bautista is our producer and social media editor. Phil Richards is our technical director. Beau Delmore is our video lead. Luis Peña is our switcher and video editor. Ramel Ocon Tura is our graphic designer.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Alicia Baetoupe composed our theme music. And together, Arnie Seiple and I executive produce this show. If you like what you've heard today, you can find more of my interviews on your favorite podcast app, on YouTube for the visuals, and also at kcrw.com/samsanders. All right, y'all, till next time, be good to yourselves.

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