Can Journalism Survive the Collapse of Trust?

When everyone else seems to be abandoning their standards, what keeps you from abandoning yours? Ryan talks with USA TODAY national correspondent Rick Jervis https://www.usatoday.com/staff/2646542001/rick-jervis/, author of The Devil Behind The Badge https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-devil-behind-the-badge-the-horrifying-twelve-days-of-the-border-patrol-serial-killer?_pos=1&_sid=a66c035e8&_ss=r, about objectivity, integrity, and how professional ethics provide stability in the middle of chaos. Listen to more of Ryan and Rick's conversation 👉 Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/this-kindles-the-soul-why-you-cant-ignore-whats-happening/id1430315931?i=1000749562129 | Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/3F6QkfWYJ4PXJZ9GOxTLvp Read Rick Jervis' piece on the immigrant families detained by ICE: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2026/01/29/immigrant-families-conditions-detention-sick-kids/88405597007/ 📚 Buy a copy of Rick Jervis’ book The Devil Behind The Badge https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-devil-behind-the-badge-the-horrifying-twelve-days-of-the-border-patrol-serial-killer?_pos=1&_sid=a66c035e8&_ss=r at The Painted Porch: https://www.thepaintedporch.com/ https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-devil-behind-the-badge-the-horrifying-twelve-days-of-the-border-patrol-serial-killer?_pos=1&_sid=a66c035e8&_ss=r Follow Rick on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/rjervis5905/: https://www.instagram.com/rjervis5905/ 🎟️ DAILY STOIC LIVE https://www.dailystoiclive.com/| Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you https://www.dailystoiclive.com/! Grab tickets here https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/ 🎙️ AD-FREE https://dailystoic.supercast.com/| Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing to The Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content: https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ ✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:14Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. It is clear to me that, that one of the problems of this moment in time is we are living through a collapse of ethics. Not the law, although the law is certainly struggling, but, but we are realizing just how much society depends, not so much on what someone is legally required to do or not do, but the standards that they hold themselves to, right? Our system of government obviously is laws and policies, but there was a number of unwritten norms and rules, things that men and women of honor would do and would never do. And our whole society depends on this idea of ethics.

• 0:58Ryan Holiday?

  What are the responsibilities of a given profession? It's something I wrestled with when I was writing Right Thing Right Now. And I talked about this in the Do Your Job chapter. Let me read this little section to you. "It says something about the world today that the phrase 'I was just doing my job' is more likely to be an excuse for disturbing behavior than to be the explanation of heroic behavior. It's a way of letting yourself off the hook when really what a job, what a duty is, is all about what it demands of you, from you. The writer Yuval Levin, despairing at the decline in so many of our precious institutions, spoke of the need for each of us to force ourselves in little moments of decision to ask the great unasked question of our time. Given my role here, how should I behave? He says, that's what people who take an institution

• 1:42Ryan Holiday?

  they're involved with seriously would ask. As a president, or a member of Congress, a teacher, or a scientist, a lawyer, or a doctor, a pastor, or a member, a parent, or a neighbor, what should I do here?" Like what he's talking about here is duty, not what's convenient, not what's easy, not what everyone else is doing, but what we are obligated to do as a result of our potential and talents, as well as the professional rules we have selected for ourselves in the world. "In business, they talk of the duty of a fiduciary, meaning that once one has taken the role of responsibility to a company, to investors, or to the customer, they can't simply do whatever is best for themselves. In a famous case in New York in 1928, Chief Judge Benjamin Cardoza ruled against a partner who had attempted to enrich themselves

• 2:26Ryan Holiday?

  at the expense of another partner. A trustee, he said, is held to something stricter than the morals of the marketplace. Not honesty alone, but the punctilio of an honor the most sensitive is then the standard of behavior. The level of conduct for fiduciaries has been kept at a higher level than that trodden by the crowd." And again, look, some of these duties, like that of a fiduciary, are codified by the law. Some are defined and enforced by a strict professional code, like that in journalism. Others, like the role of a soldier, are a combination of both. Unfortunately, most jobs and professions are not so clear, or worse, the professions have abandoned their duty. Well, that's what I want to talk about in today's episode.

• 3:11Ryan Holiday?

  I was talking to my friend, the journalist Rick Jervis. He's a correspondent for USA Today. He was the USA Today's Baghdad Bureau Chief from 2005 to 2007, covered the trial of Saddam Hussein. He participated in almost two dozen military embeds. So for years, he's been researching and investigating and reporting on some highly sensitive and politically divisive topics. And, and he came by the painted porch. I wanted to talk about what he thought of ethics in journalism. And, and look, journalism is filled with human beings who make mistakes all the time. I wrote a whole book critical of journalism. So I'm not sort of acting like these people are saints or that they always live up to their standards. But, but there are standards. And the point even that we are disappointed in the journalism profession has a lot to do with our understanding

• 3:56Ryan Holiday?

  of what those standards are and how high they are. So I talked to Rick about this. We had a larger discussion about immigration, which I'll link to in the show notes, because that was another episode. Obviously, I talk about this more at length in Right Thing Right Now. I have a whole chapter on being your own referee, which is related to this. But when the Stoics talk about justice, this is what they mean. Who are you? What standards do you hold yourself to? How do you fight to be the person, as Marx really said, that philosophy wants you to be? But also, how do you fight to be the person that your profession wants you to be? Doctor, lawyer, scientist, teacher, politician, neighbor, citizen, mother, father, whatever it is? If you've never heard of Rick's work, he has an amazing book of narrative nonfiction called The Devil Behind the Badge,

• 4:41Ryan Holiday?

  which is this great book about a serial murderer in Laredo. Turns out to be a US Border Patrol agent, carry at the painted porch. You can follow him on Instagram, rjervis5905. And I do hope this episode inspires you to take a look at some of the rules you're living by. If we want to stay true to our virtues, we gotta back them up with action. We gotta do our job. Talk soon.

• 5:04Ryan Holiday?

  Given everything that's happening in the world, how do you see your role as a reporter? Like, what do you see your job is?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  You know, trying to shed light on as much of this stuff as possible, trying to do it as dispassionately as possible, trying to retain readers' trust and sort of credibility, trying to show all sides to it. But really, also putting faces on some of these issues. You know, we wrote a story recently where we went down to sort of Laredo to interview some of the families who were, who were like previously detained, who had been released, and try to get their stories about what's it like being a sort of detained family and all of this. I think all we can do is just keep, keep putting, you know, faces to these stories and try to tell the stories of people who have been victimized in all of this.

• 5:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like when you're sort of depressed about what's happening in the world, or you feel powerless about what's happening in the world. I do think there's something both consoling and then also kind of like powerful about like doing your job, whatever that job is. Like, how do I, how do I go do my little piece of this to the best of my ability? You can't control everything, but I can control whether I'm sort of using my, my skills for good.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  And it feels overwhelming at times, to be honest. You know, there's so much, there's, there's so much out there, so much going on. It changes week to week, you know? Like, we think we gotta be on what, what's happening this week and next week, something brand new pops up. But I think that's what we try to do is just focus on our jobs and just try to focus on telling these stories as, as, as kind of plainly as we can.

• 6:51Ryan Holiday?

  I think some people want to see journalism be more sort of, not engaged, but want to see it take more of an advocacy role. And there's something, there's something interesting there because it's like if one side or one group of powers, one, one group of people is acting with impunity or sort of breaking the rules or violating the norms, there's this temptation to like, well, I gotta fight back that way. Do you find, either with the reporters you work with or even in your own, you gotta go, no, no, no. What are the basic principles of my profession? What are the, what are the sort of my standards and ethics? And, and in a way, those become even more important because the general lawlessness elsewhere,

• 7:34Ryan Holiday?

  you've kind of got to, I can't get sucked into that.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  I think there's a place for advocacy journalism. You know, I love the, the sort of opinion pages of like different, of different newspapers. And I love reading columnists and their takes on things. I think it's important. I think that they fill this sort of contextual gap that, that sometimes needs to be filled. But me, like sort of myself and other reporters that I know, I think we, we basically tend to fall back on trying to stay as, as objective as possible.

• 8:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  I think it's important. I think the number one reason is because you have to retain reader confidence. And, and if a reader, even a reader who may actually agree with your stance, like if they start reading you, like interjecting some of your own opinions to some of your coverage, they, they might not follow you as much and they might not have as much confidence in what you write. But I also think it just makes a better story. I think it's a better story. Like if you show these different competing sides, I think it's a better story. Like if you find somebody that, that doesn't fit the mold of what you think he or she is. I just think it's better, it's better storytelling. Like if you could sit back and take yourself out of it

• 8:49Speaker 01

  and just show who these people are and, and what's actually happening.

• 8:54Ryan Holiday?

  I gave this talk this weekend in, in San Diego and I was quoting this passage from, from James Stockdale. And he's talking about how, you know, integrity can seem hard, integrity can seem expensive, it can seem sort of inadequate. But he was like, it's actually there for you. Like, like a sense of right and wrong, or these are the rules of my profession, or these are, this is like, this is how we do things, is actually really important when, like when you're drowning, not literally, but like when, when everything is kind of spinning really fast and a lot's happening and people are doing awful things. Like, it's actually then that you need those rules because like you get yourself into trouble if anything goes, right? Because now you're tempted to maybe...

• 9:40Ryan Holiday?

  Cut this corner, do this, that like expediency is bad for, for you and them.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 9:45Ryan Holiday?

  And that like, it's kind of in these moments that like, hey, like, you know, doctors have these basic things, right? Or lawyers, these are their basic thing. Like, because let's say you go to the lawyer, it's like, hey, everyone's entitled to an attorney, right? That's really helpful because like, you might have this visceral reaction of like, I don't want to work for that person. But you know, no, the basic of my, the basis of my profession is this. That kind of helps you settle down and follow something other than your immediate emotions in the moment. I just wonder if you relate to that.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  There is something comforting to fall back on what I know on these kind of predetermined, you know, rules and steps that I take in trying to report out a story.

• 10:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  And sticking to that. There, there is something with, with all the chaos happening around you. Like there's chaos swirling everywhere. And I, I feel like I could just step back and be like, okay, I know what to do here. I want to interview this person. I want to get all sides to, to like the story and trying to find like the ICE agent that may be out there, you know, struggling with, with, um, with sort of some of this stuff, or, you know.

• 10:58Ryan Holiday?

  Is what they told me. Now I gotta go check that back. Even if I want it to be true, I have to go see if it's true.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Correct. And there's something comforting about that. Like, it's, it's kind of like stability within all of this chaos is, is knowing that, you know, I've been in the business 25 years now. So I, I kind of had these set rules and things that I do that I know how to do. And there's something comforting about just going after it and trying to do it, you know, as dispassionately and best as I can.

• 11:27Ryan Holiday?

  Passionate is a word, I think, uh, in a society that is built around passion. Dispassionate feels like a bad thing, but you almost need the dispassion if you're really passionate about what you do.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  That's right. That's absolutely right, you know? And it's not always easy, you know? Like reporters have opinions, they have, they, they basically see things and they have feelings and thoughts and like emotions, just like anybody else. But I think it's really important. I, I think it's increasingly important to have that. I worked in Baghdad for, for over two years. I was, I was like the Baghdad bureau chief for like USA Today. And one of the stories that I did when I was out there is that I interviewed a, a like insurgent, a Sunni insurgent. And I got him through a translator that I knew and we set up this like meeting with us. And this is a guy who was placing roadside bombs like on the side of the highway, blowing up US troops, you know? It's somebody that I'm very much against ideologically, you know,

• 12:25Speaker 01

  on every level. Like I was totally against them, but I was fascinated by what made him tick.

• 12:31Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  And that's the part that, that really drove me. I'm like, yes, of course, I'm, I'm, I'm 110% against everything this guy does, but I really want to learn why he does it, right?

• 12:41Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  And so that's the same thing that I bring here, right? And so like, I'm, I'm, I'm passionate about learning all sides of this story. And if I could overlook like my own prejudices for interviewing a Sunni insurgent in Baghdad, I think I could overlook everything which is happening here. So.

• 12:57Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, you were talking about chaos. One of the sort of chaos is or stressors that would be operating on you right now is that like your profession is under attack, right? There, attack in the, the sense the public trusts it increasingly less, but also, I mean, reporters are getting arrested. There's, uh, that Washington Post reporter whose house was searched. There's that increasing like sort of open antagonism, like whether we're talking press briefings or, you know, tweets from administration officials. That is new. It's like they're sort of saying the quiet part out loud in a way that they weren't.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 13:34Ryan Holiday?

  How do you feel about that?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  I mean, it doesn't feel great, you know? You definitely feel like you're under attack kind of constantly. I've gotten really snippy emails from, from sort of White House officials who don't agree with, with things that I've written. But I've also gotten a lot of feedback from people who read my stories, who, who thank me for it. Um, people that I, I, I, I meet later who said that was really insightful and brought a lot of insight and knowledge to them. So I think this is a crazy time and crazy things are happening, but I think, you know, really good journalism now is needed more like today than it has been in, in like a long time. So.

• 14:15Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. Do you feel like, uh, that is the role of journalism, which is to put a face to what's happening or to shine a light on what's happening in a way that like, that wouldn't happen otherwise? Is that the idea for you? Like, is that what you feel like you're?

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically. Yeah. You want to shine a light on what's happening and let, you know, readers, politicians, uh, leaders figure out what to do with that information and like how to use that information. But really just putting it out there because people need to know, you know, people need to know that they're going in without warrants and busting into people's houses. They need to know that they're shipping immigrants two or three states away.

• 14:55Ryan Holiday?

  Two or three countries away.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Sometimes, you know, to sort of avoid court orders that, that are basically telling them to sort of release these immigrants. I think if you don't write about that, people don't know. So you have to shine a light and let other people figure out what to do with that information.

• 15:10Ryan Holiday?

  One of the things about like doing your job, I don't mean your job, I just mean where you go like, hey, look, this is my role in this larger ecosystem is that there, you have to have a certain amount of humility in the sense that like, it would be wonderful if we lived in a world where like you write a story about a detention center that's overcrowded and there's abuses and, and then like the public just rises up in outrage and it immediately goes away. But that's not the world we live in. How do you deal with the acceptance that like you can only carry the ball so far?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a tough part of the job, you know? That's a tough part, you know, sometimes, and I had these, I had these conversations with other journalists, with, with other writers, that you could write like the most damning story about something that's happening and doesn't seem to move the, the actual needle much at all. And that's a frustrating part. Like you would love to see it lead to mass demonstrations and changes in policy, but sometimes it does.

• 16:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  You know, sometimes it does. So.

• 16:09Ryan Holiday?

  Work could play a small part in, I think we all want the movie version of whatever, like, it's like, you're the lawyer who takes the case which, you know, breaks up the trust. So, you know, you, you write the expose which leads to the, the politician resigning, or you have the invention which cures cancer. And it's like, actually, no, you're probably going to be an academic who toils away for their entire career, making a tiny contribution, which is picked up by someone else who makes a tiny contribution, who a hundred years from now, we finally make a 20% difference in cancer mortality. You're not the decisive blow. Almost certainly you are not the decisive blow.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  And like you have to go into it not expecting that. Like you have to go into, I'm sure there's like a Marcus Aurelius quote on this.

• 16:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  But you have to go into it not expecting or not wanting it to, to spark massive change.

• 17:04Ryan Holiday?

  Or it'll break your heart, right? Because it won't happen.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Right. You have to go into it just the, the sort of story is the sort of end to itself. And you just, just have to write the story, focus on that, make it as, as like good as possible, and then see what happens.

• 17:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. No, I mean, that's the, the stoics talk about that a lot is the idea is like, and I think this is true even, it's like you write a great book. It's like lots of people could read it. Very few people could read, like you don't control so much of it. So you have to take the majority of the satisfaction and the pride and have to understand your contribution was to do this part that was up to you and not have the expectation or be sitting around in anticipation of a certain outcome because it might or might not happen. And, and honestly, a better way to measure a life and a career is over, hey, you know, you covered this issue for 20 years and that moved the freighter a tiny bit, not this person

• 18:01Ryan Holiday?

  broke the Watergate story and American history was never the same or whatever.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  I'm somewhat comforted that, um, 50, 100 years from now, when people might go back to, to this era and like study it, that I had left this kind of paper trail.

• 18:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  That people could, could actually read, oh, this is what was happening now. This is what was happening. I think it's important. At, at least it's comforting to, to know that you're a part of the historic record on all of this stuff happening.

• 18:27Ryan Holiday?

  That's interesting thing to think about is like, is anyone who's gone back and done research, you go to the library and you look at the microfilm or, you know, you, you can, you can look at old articles. It's like, this was somebody's life. Like they thought this was a super important story. And like, you're the only one that's looked at in 40 years or a hundred years. But like, no, this person was like, sorry, I can't come to dinner tonight. I'm working on this big story. And it's like, it was like totally forgotten, but actually, it's not totally forgotten because here you all are all these years later and it might make up one sentence in a book. But like, that's, there's probably a metaphor there for just like a human life. Like we're just all these like little building blocks in this

• 19:07Ryan Holiday?

  larger thing that we call humanity or society. And you want to be in there because you wrote a good story, not you're in there because you did something bad and someone's writing about you. Like, are you a positive contribution in that way or a negative contribution in that way? That's, that's all the individual can do.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's comforting.

• 19:26Ryan Holiday?

  It's comforting and humbling at the same time. I think that's the, the tension of it.