Raising a Dog & Mastering Calm Assertive Energy | Cesar Millan

Cesar Millan is a world-renowned dog behavior expert. We discuss how to adjust your energy and behavior to ensure your dog is calm and happy and always follows your lead. Cesar shares specific tools for: returning home to your dog each day, structuring their walks, and eliminating aggressive behaviors and anxiety. We discuss how to determine if your dog is front, middle, or back of the pack order—a hardwired feature that determines much of their needs and personality. And we explore how human-human interactions are based on balances in energy, too. Both dog owners and non-owners will gain extremely valuable insights and tools from this episode. Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Pre-order Protocols: https://protocolsbook.com Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Cesar Millan (00:03:54) Animal Instincts & Human Energy (00:06:31) Spirit, Sending Energy, Tool: Silence, Calm & Confident (00:16:48) Sponsors: LMNT & Joovv (00:19:30) Walking Dog; Pack Order, Tool: Picking a Puppy (00:26:44) Human & Dog Hierarchy; Greeting Dog, Tool: No Look, No Touch, No Speak (00:35:11) Calm Dog, Structured Walk, Tool: Weighted Backpack (00:44:17) Sponsor: AG1 & Eight Sleep (00:46:57) Exercise, Discipline & Affection (00:50:23) Relationship to Death, Spirituality (00:55:30) Human Energy, Rescue Dogs; Sensing Stress (01:01:36) Animal Intelligence, Cats; Being a Pack Leader (01:07:27) Calm Greeting, Humanizing Animals, Safety & Security, Anxious Dogs (01:12:41) Safety & Horses, Respecting Dogs; Human Selfishness, Pack Leader (01:21:31) Sponsor: Function (01:23:15) Human Leaders; Pack Order, Prioritizing Affection (01:32:17) Picking Human Partners, Good Pack Leaders (01:44:40) Dog & Testing Boundaries, Tool: Calm & Confidence (01:52:34) Cultivating Self-Awareness & Self-Discipline, Life Values (01:58:02) Clearing Mind, Tool: Cold Plunge (02:02:22) Honoring Pet Death, Celebration, Expressing Sadness (02:12:13) Understanding Energy, Dog Training & Hard Work (02:17:25) Dog Breeds & Exercise, Fostering Dogs; Spay & Neuter, Humping (02:23:50) Petting Dogs; Barking & Destructive Behaviors, Tools: Early Walks, Challenges (02:31:31) Spirit & Instincts, Training Humans; Acknowledgements (02:35:50) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Protocols Book, Sponsors, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm not saying that to give affection. I'm just saying, give affection to patience and calmness and open mind. Right? Because when you, when your dog misbehaves, you want him to go back there. Go back to your good state of mind, right? You don't want the dog to do fight-flight avoidance. Those are the bad state of mind. The good state of mind is patience comes surrender or happy-go-lucky. Those are good state of mind.

• 0:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Cesar Millan, better known as The Dog Whisperer and the preeminent dog trainer in the world. Today's episode is truly for everyone, not just dog owners. You're going to learn a lot about human psychology and behavior, and it will help you better interact with other humans in every type of relationship. For instance, you will learn a simple tool that allows you to move through the world with a clear, calm state of mind that will allow you to interact with others more effectively, to listen and act with more clarity and intention.

• 1:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  And not incidentally, that clear, calm state of mind is also what dogs respond to best and what makes them feel safe and healthy. Today, we talk about the critical importance about understanding dog biology and psychology and the fact that they are pack animals and that we have to remove our human sense about these animals as our pets. And of course, they are our pets and they're extremely cute. They are family members, but understand the hardwired aspects of their brain and biology that allow us to be the best leaders for them. I have to warn you, a lot of what you hear today may sound counterintuitive at first. Until you understand the biology of dogs and the fact that they respond to people's energy and actions, not words. I know they can listen to commands, they can learn words and commands, but they're

• 1:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  responding to the energy and the actions associated with those commands. Only then can you be the most effective dog owner. And by effective, I mean making your dog as healthy and feeling safe as possible. I should point out that one of the reasons I'm so excited Cesar came on this podcast is that I had an amazingly positive experience with his methods. Years ago, when I got my first puppy, Costello, who was a Bulldog Mastiff, I read his book, Be the Pack Leader, and the principles within that book were critical for developing an incredible relationship with Costello, who lived 11 years. You could bring him into any environment. I would bring him to class. I would bring him into different people's homes. I could take him essentially anywhere. He loved kids, he loved people, and he was extremely well behaved, exceedingly lazy too, but exceedingly well behaved.

• 2:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I credit that to the methods that I learned from Cesar's book. So if you have a dog, or you're considering getting a dog, or you want to better understand how to regulate your energy and behavior in all types of interactions with dogs, with cats, and with other humans, today's episode will teach you those extremely valuable tools. And I'm extremely pleased to announce the newest member of the Huberman Lab Podcast team, Strummer. He's also a Bulldog Mastiff mutt. He's similar to Costello in breed, but I should say not a pure English Bulldog. So not a lot of snoring and the other stuff that go along with English Bulldogs. I love the English Bulldog breed, but when they're muddied with other breeds like this one, they breathe a lot easier, and he's just the sweetest thing.

• 3:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  So you'll be seeing and perhaps hearing more from Strummer. I am applying all of Cesar's methods to training Strummer. You can see he's a very calm, relaxed dog. He gets two walks a day and a bunch of other things you'll learn about during today's episode that will benefit you if you have or you're thinking about getting a dog. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Cesar Millan. Cesar Millan.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 3:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  Welcome. I'm a huge fan.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 3:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Your book.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Same here.

• 3:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you. Thank you. I'm honored to hear that. But I will say, your book, Be the Pack Leader, I read the hard copy to raise my first puppy. We never had a dog in my home growing up.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  To raise Costello.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  Bulldog mix, stubborn dog. We went 11 years together, he and I, and that book and your other teachings were tremendously impactful for my relationship with him.

• 4:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  But also in my work life, in my entire life. We're going to talk about some of the themes from that book and beyond today, but I just want to extend my gratitude.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 4:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's a true honor and pleasure to have you here.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  That's very kind.

• 4:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. In modern parlance, they say, you're the man. No, you're the man.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  The pack leader.

• 4:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's right. Many, many people want dogs, have dogs, have these concepts of dogs that lead them to think they're a great dog owner, but a lot of dog behavioral issues, emotional issues, we know probably reflect something in the human as well.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Not probably.

• 4:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  So certainly.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, because there is no knowledge behind instinct. It's all reaction. So you can never blame an animal for doing the wrong thing. You see it? So you can guarantee for a dog to do the right thing, right? And so how? Well, that means the human has good energy. And what's good energy? Well, if you understand the power of silence, which that gives you patience, the power of calmness, which that gives you trust. And calmness is you just learn how to breathe, right? The power of confidence, that's knowledge, right? And the power of love, when to give love? Because a lot of times, people give love at the wrong time, so you end up nurturing the wrong behavior, right? So that's what happened to my clients. And then the power of joy, that's the celebration, right? We're going to FIFA right now. We're going to World Cup.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Nobody celebrates unless they make a goal. You see what I'm saying? But they have to be patient, calm, confident, love what they're doing, and celebrate afterward. See, they follow that formula. It's the silence, it's the calm. Before, anybody's going to go to something so powerful, such as winning, right? Or being in a team, or being in a group. The energies of silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy is what makes them become a great team, because that's what connects your spirit, your instinct, your heart and your mind. And the same way, we have to connect with a dog. It's not just emotional, it's not just intellectual. You know, when people just want to train the dog. What you train is the mind. What you connect is the spirit, the instinct, and the heart. That's where you connect. And that's why I say, trust, respect, love.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  Trust the spirit, respect instinct, love with the heart, create with your mind.

• 6:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  For many people, especially in the United States, they're not familiar with feeling energy and exchanging energy with a dog.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'll give an example of when Costello, my previous Bulldog, some, probably Bulldog Mastiff, who knows what he was.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, whatever breed.

• 6:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Whatever he was, he was Costello. But I learned something very important from you. Before he's Costello, he's an animal.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  That's right. Spirit.

• 6:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Ah.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Spirit, animal, species, breed, name. See, so the last thing they are is the breed and the name. So when I rehabilitate a dog, what I'm doing is bringing back the happy spirit, bringing back the healthy instinct, and bringing back the rules, boundaries, limitations, mind. Because that's what makes them well behaved, when they understand rules, boundaries, limitations, no matter what breed they are. So it really doesn't matter if you have a pit bull, a rottweiler, a German shepherd, or I'm Mexican and you're white and African American. It really doesn't matter the race of the human. What matters is, is that person has a happy spirit, a healthy instinct, and a well-educated mind, right? So you want to be a good human, right? And you want to be part of the pack of the good humans. And those humans are good, right?

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Those are, those are the humans that help other humans, or they create well-behaved dogs because they're following in that path. You know, there is some people who are born to the family. I'm, I'm part of the pack where it's better humans, better planet. But I know a lot of people who are not part of that path. So it's that.

• 8:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, certainly, raising and living with Costello taught me a lot about how to sense people's energy. I had an amazing experience with him that I just want to share briefly, that I realized now is probably the spirit component, but it was something that I tried on the basis of what I read in your book. So I was walking him, and sometimes he didn't want to walk in a particular direction, you know? So he was always walking my side and a little bit behind me. I had that going from very early point. I practiced no look, no touch, no speak in the first, you know, minutes of contact or coming home, and we can talk about why that's important. But at one point, I decided, based on what you put in your book, to try something that seemed kind of wacky to me at the time, where I was just gonna, at some point during

• 8:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  the walk, it was a, we had a great stride, we're having a good time, he's smelling things, but we're moving on. And I decided to just send him like approval energy. Like, I'm just going to think it, and then I, and then feel it. I'm just going to send him some energy. I'm just walking, I'm just doing this. I did not change where I was looking. I did not change, as far as I know, like the tension on the leash, who knows? And he just looks right up at me.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I was like, this is incredible. After a really good day of hiking or work, he used to come to the lab with me or something. We were sitting or I was cooking or something. Every once in a while, I would just, while I'm doing something else, I would just send him like this positive energy.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  And he would look over at me. It was, it was wild.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I realized he's sensing things that are beyond my words. In fact, I don't know that he ever really listened when I said terribly much. He could really feel what I was feeling. He was probably paying attention a lot more of the time than I was aware. But I also had the experience of when he was doing something I didn't like, I could send him disapproval.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 9:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  And he would stop. It was wild. We were, you know, meters away from each other. And I could send him this energy. Now, to you, this is probably like, yes, of course, but I think for me, and I think for most people that have dogs or thinking about owning a dog, you think this is crazy, right?

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I swear on my life that I could do this in a variety of circumstances, while driving, anything, and he would react according to the, the energy that I was sending.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Out. As a neuroscientist, I could make up some story. Okay, well, we have fish have electric sensing. I could make up a story in neurology, neuroscience that would more or less hold together. But I want to know your impression of like, what is this? And, and then hopefully that will take us into a discussion more about energy exchange between all sorts of beings.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Well, you know, silence is very powerful, right?

• 10:47Speaker 00

  The, the power of prayer, my mom certainly is always connected. You know, when I crossed the border, I felt my mom, you know, I jumped the border. And so jumping the border is a life and death thing, right? And then, so you, you, you give yourself to God and then of course, you know, your mom is always thinking about you. So you feel this energy that is done by the, by the prayer or by the silence. You are what you believe. And so if you believe you can connect and you communicate this way, cause you, you're gonna be, I mean, the fact that people are not aware of energy, we can feel that a person doesn't feel good and we're not, we don't even know each other. You know, so imagine if we humans are sensitive to that, all animals never stop this way

• 11:32Speaker 00

  of being, right? The sensitivity of animals, they, they don't go into the mind, they stay within their instinct because that's how they stay safe, you know, and, and maintain the peace. And so what you did was exactly that. Don't talk. Don't talk with words, talk with energy, body language and intention, you know? How, how do you become the best dog in the world? Because that's all you think about. That's all you think about, you know? Even when you go to sleep, even when you're nobody, you're not talking about it. That's, so you create the law of attraction. You create the law of, of creation. The most difficult law is the law of maintenance, right? Cause it's easy to attract, it's easy to create. What's hardest to maintain, right? And that's why patience is so important or silence is so important, yeah?

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Cause this, this one is, is infinite. It's an infinite energy. So if you feel that, imagine how powerful you become. And then just to be right here where you are claiming your space, calm, that gives you another power, cause that gives the animals the capability to trust. And then your intention, right? What is it that you want without words? I just don't want you to pee over there. I just don't want you to go after that dog. I just want you to stop doing what you're doing. Cause think about when cats communicate with a dog.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  It's a completely different species, but can a cat control a dog? The same way you did, same silence, calm, confident. So that's, that's, that's why a cat can control a rottweiler and a pit bull, right? When people feel, oh, it's a, it's a very dangerous breed. At the moment, you think something is dangerous, you, you give your power away, right? At the moment, you bring silence, calmness, confidence, you regain your power back. And that's the first line of communication before sound. But most people focus on, I want to train my dog. I want my dog to listen to commands. No, no, no, no. You want your dog to listen to your silence, to your calmness, to what's in your mind without saying a word.

• 13:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's exactly it right there. That was the, the relationship with Costello improved in order of magnitude when I understood that, that I could talk to him all day or say whatever. It had a very little potency. Compared to how I would show up. And then it also taught me a lot, of course, about how to arrive home, how to walk into it. You know, I bring him to class. I taught a, you know, 400 person class, he would walk in. It was very interesting. Everyone, you know, dog, dogs, most professors wouldn't bring their dogs to class. And he knew it was all there. Typical Costello, you know, he would just kind of walk to the front of the classroom. He'd wait a few minutes, not look at anybody, and then he'd, he would decide, he'd just like glare at all of them.

• 14:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  He could light up a room, but I understood that I wouldn't let him be like the, too much of a celebrity or else he would start misbehaving. I had to remind him like, you know, we have a structure and an order.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  That's correct.

• 14:23Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I do think that people would benefit so much from getting in touch with this capacity that they have to sense their own energy and the energy of other people, regardless of, if they have a dog.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  Well, you know, Americans go to India to be quiet, right? And then to, to, to practice not eating, which they call fasting, right? And then to stretch.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  That's practically it. It's silence, you know, learn how to breathe and then stretch gives you a little bit, you know, agility into it. And you learn to control hunger, which in a third world country, that's what we learn, right? We learn to control hunger. We learn to be quiet. We learn to be calm. We learn, you know, whatever we know, we do really good at it. We become really good farmers, really good animal people, right? And family people, you know, God people. And, and so we have a good structure, good discipline and such a basic, simple stuff. And that's what gives us the, the apprehend of walk a dog off leash. You know, when I started walking dogs in America, I didn't know it was illegal to walk dogs off leash.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  I was walking 40, 60 dogs at a time, right? And I was doing it off leash because that's all I knew.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  You see it? And so that, that, that energy of silence, calmness, confidence is what now I, now that I understand what I did, is what led me to this event, you know, for people to see me from Inglewood to South Central. It's a Mexican guy that walks a pack of dogs from Inglewood to South Central off leash. That's when the LA Times came and, and did a piece of me, cause they didn't, they couldn't understand, you know, this concept of walking a dog off leash.

• 16:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  This dog shaman or something.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  And a dog in the land of the free, right? Cause you know, dogs in America have rights, but that doesn't mean they can walk off leash. You see, the dog has to be on a leash and humans have to learn to, to transmit that energy through the leash, because there's a lot of dogs that react on the leash. When their dog should be the most well behaved, then a dog is off the leash. You see, but the leash in the animal world is trust, respect, love. The, the leash in the animal world is that human understanding, you know, silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy. And that's pack leader, direction, protection, right? That's the only way you can say, I'm a pack leader, right? Cause you are that energy.

• 16:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.

• 17:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an Element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. Today's episode is also brought to us by JOV. JOV makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

• 18:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health. Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near infrared and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health. These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduce pain and inflammation, improve mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision. Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets JOV lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near infrared and

• 18:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the JOV whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session. And I use the JOV handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you would like to try JOV, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast. To learn more, visit JOV, spelled J O O V V dot com slash Huberman. Again, that's J O O V V dot com slash Huberman. I'm in a dilemma whether to go down the, the concepts of what is happening in third world countries, not just today, but always in terms of how people sense energy and use energy versus what we do here.

• 19:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I think I'm also keen on the fact that many people listening don't know how to walk their dog.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'll ask a very simple question first. Should the dog always be next to you or behind you? Is there ever an instance where the dog should walk out in front of you? And as I say this, we both realize many people walk with their dog in front of them. So could you tell us about the concept of where the dog is relative to?

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Well, think about it, look at it this way. So people can adopt the concept quicker. Cause if you learn how to walk a dog, it would eliminate 90% of the problems. The other 10% will be rules, boundaries, limitations, right? That's it.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  So when a dog is a pup, he follows his parents, right? And then he plays, then he explore. But the first activity he learns is to follow, follow, play, explore. So play and explore becomes like a reward activities. That's the Chuck E. Cheese time, right? Right? And so the follow is the one they learn, you know, the rules, boundaries, limitations. They learn to stay focused and not get distracted. So naturally dogs, they need to learn to follow. When they go in front of you, they are in the mind of a play or explore. But at the same time, if you do this every day, the dog learned that he has to lead you to places.

• 21:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Is that stressful for the dog?

• 21:08Speaker 00

  If a dog is middle of the pack and back of the pack, yes. If a dog is front of the pack, no. You see it? And so it's very important. And also for people to have a front of the pack dog, they need a lot of knowledge. And so most dogs are perfect, uh, middles or back. The back should be the easiest one. But when people don't do the right thing with the back, he becomes fearful. The middle of the pack should be the one for the families because they're naturally happy, go lucky. But if you do too much excitement, they become hyper. You see it?

• 21:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  And this is a crossbreeds.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  It doesn't matter if it's a bulldog or a, you know.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  And every litter is front of the pack, middle of the pack, back of the pack. But it's more back of the packs being born, like followers, then it's only one per litter, a litter of the pack. So that's what they call in the, in the breeder world, a pick of the litter. See, so in a litter of German cheppers, only one, it can be a police officer. The other one is pet quality, or they call them the run of the litter. Back of the pack, sensitive, middle of the pack, happy, go lucky, is the HR of the pack, is the middle of the pack, right? And then the front of the pack is the one that gives direction, protection.

• 22:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Ideally for a family or for a typical domestic situation, I think the United States, but elsewhere. Because this is going everywhere and this, this episode will go everywhere. Middle or back of the pack?

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Middle.

• 22:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Middle.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. A family who has never raised a dog together, yeah, middle.

• 22:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  How can you assess the litter when you see them? So that you pick a middle of the pack dog?

• 22:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  If that's what's appropriate, it sounds like that's the, that's the goal.

• 22:38Speaker 00

  The front is going to be very easy to, to, to assess because he's going to be the biggest one. He's going to be the one that's moving the sisters and the brothers away from the mom, right? He's already going to practice dominance. And then the middle is, is, is the second to get to the mother. And the back of the pack, they're always wait. You see, they're more shy naturally, they're just sensitive.

• 23:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  What if you don't have access to the interaction with the mother? Having gone to pick up puppies a few times, sometimes you just see the puppies, the mom's in another room. Should you ask to watch the interaction? And if you, and if you can't, how can you assess if you're just looking at the litter?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  If you're in a situation, the breeder knows, because that's what they put ribbons, you know, colored ribbons. So they, so they know, okay, this is middles, this is our back. Even though they don't call them that way, they just call them run of the, run of the litter, you know, pet quality of front of the pack. The front of the pack is just the obvious one, right? And so when, um, just go inside, you know, where, where, where the puppies are and there's no mother and nothing, just stay quiet. And every time you present something new, you're going to see the more confident coming to, and the more happy, go lucky coming to. And the back of the pack, it doesn't get close. Anything new, it just can be a pillow. And that's the first time they experience a pillow and the front of the pack will go. And the, and the middle of the pack will go and play.

• 23:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's hardwired.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  It's, it's there. That's why you can guarantee good behavior, right? Cause now you, okay, I want a middle of the pack border collie. I want a middle of the pack go on retriever. I want a middle of the pack pit bull. You can have it. You see, cause that's going to guarantee you exactly what you want. It's going to be easier for you to tell them what to do because he was born naturally a follower. Versus if you get a front of the pack, whatever breed, Chihuahua, I don't care what it is. They're born, you know, with, with the disposition of giving direction, protection. So whoever human wants to live with them needs to have more knowledge, right? So that's me running a pack of dogs and having different animals. The animals know that I have a big energy. They don't know I have 43 acres, they just know I have a land.

• 24:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  And that you're in charge of it.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. And all the ups and downs that I went through and I have been, the wars that I go through, right? The divorces and all of that stuff. And I went through and, and, and I, and I, I find my silence, my calmness, my confidence, my love, my joy right back. They know my energy is big, right? So, so that I can have a front of the pack, but I don't have one. I have middles and back.

• 25:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Even you.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Even me. Yeah. Cause it will, it will require so much, I will need to find him a job. You see what I'm saying? Like a, like a border patrol, something like that, looking for, for, looking for the bad guys. Like that would be a job. It's just one officer and one dog. He doesn't need the pack.

• 25:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Fascinating. I'm sure like many people listening, I'm trying to figure out was Costello front of the pack? I think he was, um, he's an enormous dog. I mean, uh, even within his litter. And, um, when I went to go pick up, I had met him as a three week old puppy. He was the one butting all the other ones out, eating from their food bowls. He was.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  They claimed.

• 25:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. He didn't yelp, uh, didn't yap at all. He just ate everything, took everything, peed where he wanted to, did everything. So there was, it was a difficult thing raising him. This new one, Strummer, who's four and a half months, he's definitely middle, maybe even back of the pack, but.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  A little sensitive.

• 26:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  He was second out when he was born and they said, oh, you know, he's going to be the pick of the litter. They said it, but definitely not. You know, quickly it was clear that he kind of kept a little bit distance. He is very sensitive.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Okay, that's good.

• 26:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Much sweeter.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, sensitive.

• 26:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, much more playful. And that's the part that I have to work with because they enchant us, you know? Like I noticed with Strummer, he, he has figured out, you know, that if he gets into play mode, it lights me up. And then I have to remember to stay in my, in my place, my proper place. Because I'm trying to teach him here, this is the order of things. It's very important because I want to be able to bring him anywhere, leave him in a room alone with little kids and trust completely that he's not going to accidentally do something. For people that want to learn to sense their own energy, use their energy field.

• 26:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Should they also be asking if they are front, middle or back of pack?

• 26:54Speaker 00

  The human, yeah.

• 26:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  In the human world, this is something, it's a little bit of a sensitive topic, right? Because every guy wants to say, yeah, I'm an alpha, not a beta. Everyone thinks that way. I like to think in different circumstances, people can move up or down the, the.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  The human can.

• 27:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Hierarchy. I mean, I work with a lot of scientists and I can tell you in many environments that they don't come across as alphas. But you put them in a laboratory or a lecture environment and I mean, they own their space because that's their expertise. So it can move around. But can you explain what it is to observe oneself, really think honestly about oneself? And where one really lies in this, let's, let's call it what it is. It's a, it's a hierarchy, but that makes it sound like one is better. It just is what it is. You're either front, middle or back of pack human.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  That's their special magic, right? Being, being back of the pack means the master comes surrender. So we have to learn to, to master come surrender. That's our more sensitive state of mind, right? This, so when I'm assessing and evaluating a dog, I go into my calm surrender state. So I go in the back of the pack, right? When it's time for me to give direction and protection, I go to the front of the pack. When I achieve whatever I need to achieve, I go into the middle of the pack. You see it? So the human can, can, can, uh, can take advantage of disposition of this, of this state of mind, right? The dog, the back of the pack dog is, is gonna, is gonna tell you, listen, I'm here to master calm surrender.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  It doesn't mean I don't do happy, go lucky, but he can never do calm confident.

• 28:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  Back of pack can't do front of pack.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Never, never.

• 28:28Andrew D. Huberman?

  And are we talking humans and dogs now? If we're really transparent?

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Well, it's just to have that fine line between what the human can do, right? Versus what the dog can't, right? So it's important to understand, you know, that a dog is born with a position, right? And the human can go from whatever position he was born to different positions, right? Because it's a lot of, like you say, it's a lot of scientists, people who are very brilliant on this side. But when it comes to a dog, the dog takes over.

• 28:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, yeah, or even just at a coffee shop, you know, they're they sort of they they become a smaller version of themselves. Not because they're weak, it's just it's not their domain of expertise and they feel weak in that environment.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Correct. Or they turn on one energy more than the other one. And so a lot of these people turn on more the affection energy, right? And affection or love energy in the animal world is not a strong energy.

• 29:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, tell me more about that because I practiced on your recommendation, no look, no touch, no speak when I got home. Most difficult thing for people to do, I think, you know, they get home and the dog is like super happy to see them, tail is wagging, they're excited. And I I'm like, I'm gonna ignore my dog. This feels like abuse, right, you know? But I'd come in, do my thing, and then after some period of time, I'd be like, hey? And what I realized is every time after that, I'd come home and he was calm. He was excited to see me, but he was calm, never jumping up and touching me, never jumping up and touching anyone else. But if someone came over and they were super excited, it almost would confuse him. Like, this is not how people enter the space.

• 29:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Most people, I think, have a very hard time not greeting their dog with, men and women, squealing.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 30:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  And it makes the dogs anxious. It causes problems in the relationship.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right?

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 30:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I think most people don't realize that.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Well, that's exactly you said it, you know, I don't want to ignore my dog. And I don't want to like tell my dog that I don't love him, you know, because then the interpretation, the dog miss me. But, you know, every time you leave an animal behind walls, the animal is gonna go excited or anxious, right? So not always what you're greeting is a happy dog. Most of the time, what you're greeting is an excited, anxious dog that is confused, right? So it's very important, you know, when when people sees dogs, greet another dog, there is no excitement. There is respect, you know? And then and they wait until the the front of the pack allows them to come in. They can't just come in into their intimate space. So it's a ritual. So it's three rituals that are very important for people to master with no touch, no talk, no eye contact. One is the meeting.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Every time you meet a dog, always remind them about safe, peace, nose, eyes, ears, trust, respect first. And then is the walk, the dog right next to you, following you, quiet. And then when you feed. So those three activities are very meaningful to dogs. But it all starts with the meeting, with the greeting. So every time you reunite, you have to remind your dog that you are a source of safe and peace, of trust, respect, of nose, eyes, ears. You have to tell them that.

• 31:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  Dissect nose, eyes, ears for us, because I think most people, because we're humans, especially in the US and, you know, in Northern Europe or wherever, like.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  England.

• 31:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's speaking. Yeah, there are people who are just speaking constantly, like, hi, hi, hi, you know? This is not the best way for to communicate with a dog, who you are and what you're about and what the the trust relationship.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  Well, it creates excitement, right? It creates a dog to learn to greet people with excitement. So if you greet your dog with excitement, you are the source to other humans. So he's gonna greet all the humans excited, he's gonna jump on people. Not everybody wants a dog that doesn't belong to them to jump on them. So but because, you know, let's say you do that, your dog has learned to welcome humans excited. You see it? So when a dog is born, he borns with the nose open. Fifteen days later, they open the eyes, 21 days later, they open the ears. This is scientifically, right? This is in all the encyclopedias. So that means the dog met his parents through the nose, then the eyes, then the ears. You see it?

• 32:33Speaker 00

  But when people wants to do ears, eyes, nose, they're they want to create a human. They want the dog to understand the way you and I understand. Hey, Andrew, how you doing? But we can control that excitement, right? At least we should, some people can't, right? But so it's a different ritual for us. You know, we believe in parties, we believe in parades. For a horse to go to New York is a very excited place. It takes conditioning because no horse will ever volunteer going to New York. See, it has to be conditioned, right? Because you're bringing him to a very excited environment with his instincts, say, flight.

• 33:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Recently, there have been these problems, sorry to cut you off, I don't know if you saw a couple of the carriages in Central Park took off. Someone was killed recently. There's a whole debate going on now whether or not this is good or bad for these horses. But it's just clear, regardless of where one sits on the debate, that you can't take the instinct out of the animal. There are triggers that will send them over an edge.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  Or you have to make sure that you, you know, you you keep eye on on how is the spirit of the horse, is the instinct of of the horse healthy? You know, is the spirit happy? You know, because when they just go into the habit of working, working, working, working, even a police dog can crash. You see what I mean? Even a even a police can dog can bite a police officer because it's overworked.

• 33:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  I have a few friends from the special operations community, they work with these dogs that jump out of planes, parachute, do.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  The Belgian Malinois.

• 34:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, the Malinois. And several of those guys have told me that with those dogs, you cannot ever, ever let up your guard as the leader. In fact, a few guys who got a little soft with them, just a tiny bit, like one anecdote was they decided to invite the dog in to watch a movie with them one night when they're on deployment or maybe they were training, I don't know. And he let the dog get a little too close to him during the movie, the next day he got bit. And it's like they're constantly trying to move up, move up the hierarchy. He's like, it sucks because you you fall in love with these animals.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  But you have to constantly keep the relationship in its proper place or they'll not turn on you, but they'll try and take your position.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  They don't try. That's the thing with animals, they don't try, they just do, right? There is no knowledge behind instinct, it's all reaction. So at the moment, your energy goes down, bam!

• 34:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Amazing.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  At the moment, so they're they're keep an eye on your energy, you know? And but at the same time, you know, this kind of dogs are always in a high level of excitement. They keep them that way.

• 35:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, they're vigilant.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  They're they're keeping like like that. They don't know how to turn it off.

• 35:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  So to create a great home family dog, or even if somebody lives alone, it's no look, no touch, no speak in the first couple of minutes of contact.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, until the dog becomes peaceful and calm and open mind. So surrender means the mind is open, right? So once the mind opens up, you can teach whatever you want, such as waiting, such as being calm.

• 35:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  What if somebody has an anxious dog right now, they haven't been doing this, and the dog is pawing at them and and running around? Should the person just stay completely in that calm space, moving about and ignoring them, touching them? Or should they be physically, I mean, like, you know, get off me type thing?

• 35:44Speaker 00

  This also has to do with how how much exercise, physically exercise the dog has received, right? How long is his walk? Because most people walk 20, 30 minutes, that's not enough, and the dog end up in the house for 20, 23 and a half hours.

• 35:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  In my opinion, it's borders on abuse. It's really incredibly hard on an animal.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  This is the same people that say, I love my dog. And and my first question is, how long do you walk them?

• 36:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  What is your recommendation? I realize it varies by breed and by age.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, and by level of energy, because some are couch potatoes, low level energy, some middle and some high, right? And so it depends on the energy of the dog. So not because the dog is a back of the pack doesn't mean they don't have high level energy, okay? Because the sled dogs, there is a lot of guys that go in the back, it's only one in the front, if you notice, right? And even in the back of the pack dogs, because they create a pack from middle back, right? And that's why they stay in that mode. And and so even the back of the pack, they have to have the same level of stamina as the one in the front. So not because it's the back of the pack is couch potato, you know? So then then you have to understand the levels of energy that they're born with, low, medium, high. Yeah, so a lot of times people say, oh, bulldogs are couch potatoes now.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  You can have a bulldog that is absolutely athletic, absolutely athletic, and has that stamina to go and, you know, obviously, you have to help them with the breeding part. And because they they just go into, you know, no limits. So you have to help them, you know, cool down.

• 37:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Strummer has a lot of energy compared to Costella. So two minimum 30 minute walks per day, as much as a couple hours twice a day?

• 37:24Speaker 00

  With a backpack on, right? Obviously, the dog is a little older because, you know, the backpack adds that extra half hour. Because now the dog is carrying something.

• 37:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  So a weighted backpack?

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  And how should one assess like percentage of body weight of the dog?

• 37:36Speaker 00

  At the beginning, you can just put a backpack because psychologically, you know, they don't want to wear anything, you know? Nothing that we put on them, they want to wear it, you know, a leash, a collar, a muzzle, a boots, doesn't matter, doesn't matter. So psychologically, that drains them, right? Because they gotta get used to it. So you you walk until the dog calm surrender to it, and then you take it off. And then the mind will become very drained. Once the dog gets used to it, and then you start putting weight, you can start with five pounds. Remember, every time you add something, you challenge the mind. And the goal is simply for the mind to surrender. You see it? And then the body, the body is gonna become calm because it's wasting energy. So your job, literally every day with a dog is to empty the tank.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Empty the tank, you know, because a tired dog is never gonna give you problems, ever.

• 38:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  True.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Ever. How? He doesn't have the energy to give you problems, right? And then on top of that, you create rules, bounds, limitations such as just put food right here, but you can't touch it. So the mind has to be disciplined not to touch it. Then the mind has to learn, instead of doing this, to do this. And that requires self-discipline. If you tell the dog, don't touch it, or don't touch the human, don't touch the food, don't touch the cat, they go into a calm surrender state and they wait.

• 38:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, the first thing that I taught Strummer was to suppress action, just as a general theme. He learned it right away. At eight weeks, it took about a day, maybe even half a day, because I had learned the hard way with Costello, it was much more stubborn. I could set food down.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 39:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  As an eight-week-old puppy, because we went through the training process, he's not touching it until he looks at me. I can walk around the room, I can do whatever I want, he's tracking. And then when I say, okay, then he's gonna eat. I will just mention, there's a inhibition from the forebrain down to the brain regions that control impulses. And that's what we call top-down inhibition, which is nerd neuroscience speak for what you're describing practically. And I feel like it carries over to other circumstances more easily. But I can put food in front of him now and leave the room. I don't do this for extended periods, but I come back, he's not gonna touch it.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 39:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then he starts to eat. Now, it's a little bit more difficult with things that, like trying to teach him to not be mouthy on, so I have a rule, no, no skin in dog's mouth. It's just like, it's all or none. Make it simple. Because when, it's really cute when they're a puppy, their teeth are a little sharp, and then you can kind of, but I just have a, it's a thick, black line.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 40:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  And my girlfriend knows this too. Like, she's like, no, but he wants to play. It's like, no skin goes in his mouth. Then he, because that's a simple rule.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 40:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  And if he does, happens to, you know, go for skin, I'll do the little yelp thing. He understands right away. So if people hear this, they're gonna be like, this is terrible, right? You're putting food in front of him, and he wants to eat, and you're not letting him. But could you elaborate why this is so important to the dog's happiness and well-being? Because I believe it is, and I could see that in Costello, I see it in Strummer, there's a trust, there's a calmness, there's an availability to go more places.

• 40:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  But many people, they just, like, he's hungry, she's hungry, they missed me, you know? They didn't know what they were doing.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Or they feel guilty, because they didn't walk the dog. Guilt plays a big role in raising dogs.

• 40:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, then let's stay on the walk for a moment. What is so critical about the structured walk? I've been doing two hours a day or so of structured walk since he was little. And people say, that's too much for a puppy? I feel like he's been great with two, one-hour walks.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  It's because they forget instincts, right? They forget instinct, that a dog is instinctually, is going to follow his parents to find food and water, right? Yes, they do it after two months of age, because otherwise they will stay within the den, right? But from, from two to four, they follow, you know? They follow, and somebody's always taking care. You can see it in the African wild dogs, there is always somebody that supervises the litter. But they allow them to follow, right? And then they, they, they go to a certain stance, because they're growing. But as soon as a dog gets into six, eight months of age, that guy wants to walk more than 30 minutes, guaranteed. He doesn't want to stay in one place too long.

• 41:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  So all these people with their dogs home all day, or some people will say, well, the dog has the yard, running around the yard. It's not the same, right? Being able to run around a yard.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  With the yard, it becomes like the zoo, right? It's an animal in the zoo with a yard. But that's not natural. That's just practical for the human, right? And the human feels like, okay, I have a backyard, that's where the dog does exercise. But the dog is going in circles. So exercise for a bird is going for a fish. You know, a bird have to fly, a fish have to swim, and a dog has to walk. It's just the nature of each species, right? So the walk is the most important activity in my eyes, right? Look at the homeless people with their dogs, why they can walk a dog off-leash.

• 42:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  You were the first person I ever heard say that homeless people are the best dog owners.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  And the humans who are blind, the human who are blind, dog is right next to them. Homeless people, dog in the back, right? So what are they doing right? Well, the dog is following them, right? They're in a follower state. And so the dog, the dog that lives with the blind is not allowed to get distracted, because his purpose is to guide the blind. And the dog that lives with the homeless, he's not allowed to go in front. Consciously or unconsciously, the dog stays in the back. Nine out of 10 homeless people have a pit bull, and the dog is well-behaved, off-leash.

• 43:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  I see a lot of them in my neighborhood. This is Los Angeles. It's incredible.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Incredible, right? But in Mexico, every single dog in a thorough country, every single dog is off-leash. So that's, in America, the American dream for a lot of people is to have a dog walk off-leash. Because people pay a trainer to train their dog to be off-leash, with this is the nature of a dog. You see, it doesn't make any sense, you know, once you hear it. You just have to help them by practicing the ritual of no touch, no talk, no eye contact. Let the dog be calm, surrender in front of you. Make sure during the walk, he's also in the same state of mind. And before you feed him, do this for at least three weeks, right? So you get into this habit, right? That when you greet, when you walk, and when you feed. So then this dog is gonna have this beautiful silence, calm

• 43:59Speaker 00

  surrender. And this is the dog you bring into dog parks or dog beaches. And then your job is to make sure that you, the dog that your dog is gonna play with has the same energy as your dog. You have to be selective, just like with kids, right?

• 44:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  I don't bring my dog to dog parks. I used to...

• 44:16Speaker 00

  You don't need to.

• 44:17Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 44:59Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 45:41Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 46:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns, and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages. It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep. If you'd like to try 8Sleep, go to 8sleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5. 8Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's 8sleep.com/huberman to save up to $350. I've followed your recommendation with Costello and also with Strummer, exercise, discipline, and then affection.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  And affection, body in my heart.

• 47:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  And for many people, you know, they're gonna hear that. I mean, it's reflexive for you now, of course, this is your domain, but they're gonna be like, this, but they don't want to walk first thing in the morning. I want to cuddle with my dog first thing in the morning. I mean, my household now, I had to be really clear, like, if we don't follow this, we're damaging the opportunities for Strummer, we're actually hurting his psychological well-being.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  And the only hard part with him is he doesn't necessarily like to wake up early, but sometimes have to walk him early, so it takes a little bit of extra encouragement. The day always starts with a walk, then discipline training, and then food, and then some affection.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  But it's not hours of like cuddling on the couch, right? It's like, you know, I mean, I love him, I would love to pick him up and treat him like a little baby.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  Much more often than I do.

• 47:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I just see the incredible results that come from this exercise, discipline, and then affection.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  Well, just living a natural life is love, because, right, we want them to live as natural as possible. And, and so that's love. And in my eyes, like, exercise, discipline. Discipline is not punishment, because that's a word, and in the animal, the dog people, when they hear the word discipline on the dog, they put it as punishment.

• 48:19Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, they're thinking of a teacher hitting them.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, you're punishing the dog. And no, you're just making sure the dog follows the rules, bounds, limitations, the dog follows a structure, you know, and that's what we call discipline, right? And that's how we achieve becoming well-behaved, or achieving success, because we have to be disciplined, right? And so a lot of times, what I, what I end up helping people is understanding the word, so the block doesn't block, the word doesn't block them from doing the right thing, right? Which is your job as a, as a pet parent, because now is the title, pet parent, right? Is direction, protection, then love. Yeah, but most dog people want to do affection, affection, affection. And when it should be exercise, discipline, affection, body, mind, heart.

• 49:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think the, the walking part is so key, obviously, and I, I'll just say it. You tell me if you agree or disagree, if you want, but I think most people are just lazy. They don't want to walk. And if they walk, they don't want to do it without talking on their phone or looking at their phone. And the dog can sense if your energy is on the walk or the energy is someplace else.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  Or you're connected, you're disconnected. But you're in a flex leash with a harness on and you're in the phone, which is the worst.

• 49:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And so, and so it's, it's, it's the moment where you are connected to Mother Nature and through the dog. Right? And people now, you know, they see God is dog backwards. All right, so you're connected to spirit and you're connected to earth. But you can't be connected to technology. And the phone is the same thing is the phone is for connection, communication, relationship. So does the dog. Connection, communication, relationship to God, to earth, to you. And so then you create that triangle and then the dog is inside that bubble. You know, oh, this human is really respecting God. This human is really respecting earth. This really, this human is really respecting the moment. So you create this vibe, right? And the dog is in a follower state, so he's going to imitate the energy that you're in. Right?

• 50:18Speaker 00

  And, and so what is prayer? An imitation of everybody doing the same energy.

• 50:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  So fascinating that your relationship to dogs has opened up this understanding of human behavior. But not just how we behave, but how we relate to the, the entire world, like the energetics. This keeps coming up in our discussion. I feel I have other practical questions, but I want to touch on something that you mentioned before we started recording, which is that in a third world country, people are aware of death very early on. And so the connection to the spiritual comes first and all the rest follows. The complete inversion of somebody like me, who was born in Northern California. It's like Silicon Valley and call it that then.

• 51:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you learn everything through the, the logical structures and, you know, science and,

• 51:10Speaker 00

  Science.

• 51:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  And my dad's a scientist and, but, and even if one loves poetry and music and things like that, which I do, the order is through the, the sort of like bricks on the ground first. And, but there's no concept of death, actually, until your grandparent dies or an animal dies or something. Tell me about this relationship to death and how it structures the, the psyche and the energy of people in third world countries. Because it, it's a direct outgrowth of everything we're talking about. Because I think it's going to be extremely useful to people in, regardless of where they live in the world.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  I think that's the first step, you know, to learn not to be afraid of death. Right? That's the first step because that's in, in America, they don't want nothing to die. But it's, it's just what it is, right? For life and death. So it's just, that's when in the Mexican culture, we have the Dia de los Muertos, the day of the death. So we learn to, to be okay with it. We learn to accept it because, you know, in Mexico, uh, or a third world country, death is everywhere. You can see it everywhere, you know? I'm from the north of Mexico, Sinaloa, and you see people with the chop heads and hang up. And, you know, you go to school and people are dead. So what do you, what do you end up doing in that, in this moment?

• 52:25Speaker 00

  You're, well, you end up believing that God will protect you. That's your spirituality. Right? And just like what, I don't want a person to break into my house. You get a dog, right? And so that the mother nature to protect you. So for us, when, when we grew up that way, seeing death everywhere, we learned to surrender to this higher power. Right? And we are what you believe, you know? So it's, it's, it's really good, you know? And, and, and our experience to, to be able to surrender to death. But at the same time, we also surrender that somebody is going to give us direction, protection, love. The same thing is the pack leader, right? And we just surrender to that. Right? And as well, we surrender to earth, giving us food and taking care of earth.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Cause it's a, it's a, it's a combination of spirituality and instincts in a third world country.

• 53:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  So it's almost like people in third world countries place, sort of, they see the reality of death.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Early and they place themselves in a, a sort of hierarchy. They look upward, oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes these are religious people, right?

• 53:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  My father's from Argentina, is a Catholic country and is a.

• 53:34Speaker 00

  Latinos for, for, by design, we, we are taught to spirit first. And then second is Mother Nature. Right? Yeah, it's number, you know, now that's the, it's like an order. And then you have to go to work. Right? So job is number three. And then you have to love the family and then love is at the, at the end. Right? But it's God first, earth second, which, and then it's family or work.

• 54:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, here in the United States, it's, we're raised very differently.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  Yes, self first.

• 54:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  And it's also this idea that stuff is the portal to happiness. Having Lay's phone, having access to all the apps.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Shoes, a lot of shoes.

• 54:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Shoes, bags.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  I grew up with one pair of shoes.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  You know, one pair of shoes. And, and so we grew up with very, well, nothing. But then, so what, how do we stay happy? Right? How do we stay happy? So it becomes like a belief system, right? And so that belief system, it, it has helped a lot of people that I know there to stay happy. It's just a happy people with nothing, which is the key, right? You first have to be, learn to be happy, healthy, loving, smart with nothing. Then when you have something and then you're already happy, healthy, loving, smart. Right? It just adds into your accomplishments. But animals don't understand money, fame, power. Animals understand natural, simple, profound. So that's the part that I grew up in.

• 55:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Natural, simple, profound.

• 55:01Speaker 00

  Natural is your instinct, simple is to love, profound is your spirit. Natural, simple, profound. So even if you're not smart, right? You can still be natural, simple, profound and have an amazing relationship with animals. Incredible. Right? Even if you're not, you don't know how to read, you don't know how to, right? You, you don't know where Europe is. But you can still have an amazing relationship with God and with Mother Nature and with your family. Right? And therefore, if you're good to those three, you're good to you.

• 55:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  I used to joke, because I'd bring Costello to my lab with me. A lab of about 15 people, I'd walk in with him and, and he'd go around and he, he liked walking into the lab. He'd see all the students and people working. He used to bring his toy around each of them, sitting at their desk or trying to get them to play. You know, he was part of the lab and, and people really, I like to think they loved him. They told me anyway that. But I used to look at him sometimes and I think, he doesn't care that I'm the professor. He doesn't care. That's the best part about this relationship. He doesn't care. He doesn't care, even if we go home at night. Sometimes I would sleep in the lab back then. Doesn't care. He just wants us to be together. He wants his walks. He likes to pee on things. And I just realized he just kind of wants to be around the joy of family, a laboratory.

• 56:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  He just wants to be part of this. And it really helped me to just remove that, the, the concept that he even knew what roles were or jobs were. It's just this place we went. I think dogs are a wonderful way to look at the world differently. And realize both how different we are as a species, but also all these things that we've created. Like these are just human creations.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 56:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they're important. Jobs are important, obviously. But, but to not project that onto him, but also is very useful to not project that onto people in the world. I'm not going to point at any specific colleagues, but I knew people who were very, who are very prominent in their field. And the way they go into the world is almost like disappointed because people weren't feeding them the adoration that they felt they deserved. But no one cares, right? Cause they're in their own experience. And I just mentioned this because, yeah, in your book and, and these teachings of that, that we've been talking about today, they, they taught me a lot about the human energetics. We're not dogs, so we can't just transfer that in.

• 57:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  But it taught me that like, most of the time when we think we're operating from a place of like knowledge and roles and all this stuff, there's something that's been constructed by humans, like a uniform to show this person's in charge. They have all the stuff that reveals their accomplishments, the degrees on the wall. You take that stuff away and it's a very different kind of interaction. Like who's this person? Like what are they about? Like what moves them forward or back? Are they a good person or a bad person? Are they scared? And it, I think it's very helpful if people learn to tap into this a little bit.

• 57:51Speaker 00

  You know, when I go to people's home, the human tells you the story and the dog tells you the truth. Just by you looking at them. That's it. The dog immediately tells, this is the energy we feel. This is the philosophy we practice and this is the actions we do immediately. The dog always, he's the most honest member of your house. They don't know how to lie. See it? They don't know, they don't know how to, to, to do what we humans do. They don't, just, just, just don't, right? So it's, I listen to the human because I, I need to understand, okay, where is this human stuck? Right? And then through that conversation, I go, okay, what about it? If we think of, no, think of spirit, think about silence. You like silence? Okay, silence is part of the spiritual world. And what about calmness? Calmness, I think I'm calm.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  Okay, let's breathe. And then I, I changed the, the instinctual world just by, just breathing, right? And then I started giving the information so the intellectual world is more simple. It's more clear with the nose, eyes, ears, rules by limitation. I'm just giving this simple information, right? So your mind knows how to execute. Right? And then, when do I love? Hold on, just, just wait, wait. And, and then when the dog goes, now, that's when you love. Cause I want to teach people to love silence, to love calmness, to love an open mind. Cause people have learned to love an excited dog, an anxious dog, a, a dog that, that was a victim, right?

• 59:16Speaker 00

  So if you rescue a dog and then the dog was in a bad situation, that person goes and rescue a dog because he feels bad. And then that same person start telling everybody in the family what happened to that dog. So now the whole entire family feels bad for the dog. So when they describe the dog, they describe the past. So they learn to love the past because they feel sorry for this dog. So the dog now is fearful, controlling the house, you know, has, and doesn't listen to the humans. At the moment, I grab the same dog and I bring him to the ranch and I give him silence, calmness and be part of the pack. That dog changes. They live in the moment. So really what happened to the past to a dog a month ago, a year ago, is irrelevant. It's irrelevant. What's relevant is how do you treat him now? Right?

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  And the only thing they need to, to become good is, is safe, peace environment. A trust, respect human with exercise, discipline or, or exercise, mental stimulation activities. Then the love comes at the end. Safe, peace, love. Trust, respect, love. Exercise, discipline, affection. See, love is number three, is a reward. Right? It's a reward. How do you stay happy? Well, and then you are grateful. How do you stay healthy? You learn how to breathe and do exercise. How do you stay smart? Well, you learn, you achieve, and you give it away. Or you learn to turn your mind off. And then, so when do I practice love? Well, practice love once you master your spirit, your instinct, and your mind. Then love that thing about you, right?

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  Love those three things about you. Your silence, your faith, your calmness, your trust to you, and then your confidence, your mind. Love that.

• 1:00:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  Can dogs smell stress?

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, feel stress, smell. But remember, it's the feeling of the energy that you have inside you, electricity, right? You're not functioning normal. Then that same energy is gonna create a chemistry, right? Then you're gonna sweat, and I mean, it's just gonna go into the nose, eyes, ears. But first, without the nose, eyes, ears, just the animal in them is gonna sense. When an earthquake is about to come, they sense it way before it trembles. You see it? So that energy of Mother Nature is shifting at a such a low level of sensitivity, then we see, then we hear things.

• 1:01:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Humans are so obsessed with "dog" quote-unquote "intelligence" that looks like our intelligence. Like, if I see another video of like, how many words a dog can learn, or, you know, dogs doing tricks or walking on their hind legs, none of that impresses me. I also like cephalopods, octopuses. I have a couple of them, actually, and I'm fascinated by them. And people think they're extremely intelligent, and they... Maybe, but I'm interested in their intelligence. You can find a video of a guy who taught an octopus to play a piano. But if you look at the training process, it was just shaping, right? Reward this and reward that. That video, I'll go on record saying, totally unimpressive to me. It tells you far more about the trainer's willingness

• 1:02:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  to painstakingly shape an animal than it does about octopuses at all. I mean, I'm not saying an ant or a plant could have learned to play the piano. But what he did could be done with a horse, if it just had big keys. So there's nothing interesting about this. But humans, we seem obsessed with transferring our... Let's keep it to first world, because that seems aligned here. Our first-world understanding of what intelligence and knowledge is and skill is, and putting that onto other species. And it's crazy. It's crazy. It doesn't reveal anything except our own shortsightedness and stubbornness about being unwilling to think about these other ways of communication and moving through the world.

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  Well, it's that self-oriented first versus pack-oriented. You know, what is what the pack needs versus what is what you want, right? So that is more like where, when the human just wants a baby, for example, and they get a dog. Humanizing a dog, is it good for the dog? No, right? It's not good. It's good for the human, you know? It's good for the human fantasy and fulfillment, emotional fulfillment, or whatever thing they have in their mind. But is it good for the dog to be a human? Why would he wants to be a human? Why did I try to do the same thing with a cat? Because what they say is, "He's a cat." So you can't humanize a cat. You see what I'm saying? So the cat sends the human to hell, right?

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, because the cat only comes whenever he wants to come. So you can't influence anybody who doesn't want to be with you, right? The dog, you have to teach him to live without you, right? He has to learn to keep you distant, because he's a pack-oriented. So you can influence a dog much quicker than you influence a cat, right? You can't influence anybody who doesn't want to follow you.

• 1:04:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  How do you feel about cats?

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  I love cats. I love all animals, you know? I was gonna invite you to the ranch, because we have all the species, and we can assess and evaluate your dog better, right, with the chickens and the dogs and the different species, so we can see the prey drive, you know? And you are going to be able to see, do you have a dog with prey drive, and how do we block it, right? Or you have a dog with play drive, and you just leave it open?

• 1:04:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, I'd love to bring Strummer out there.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a good place, because your dog gets to interact not just with dogs, but with other species that trigger that prey drive. Very, very important. Because what makes your dog social is that he learns to accept others. See, I don't want a dog that has a protective drive, or... I'm not interested in that, right? I just want a dog that accepts everybody. Yeah, and that's a dog that is going to give you zero lawsuits, zero liability, right? Because he accepts everybody.

• 1:05:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, yeah, I know people in California in particular whose dogs charged other people lawsuits, like, even if they didn't bite. It's... That's a whole thing.

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  And it can be a last app, so. It can be a dog that was not meant for protection. But because it doesn't have rules, boundaries, limitations, it doesn't walk, and, you know, every day the dog is bored, confused, or frustrated. And then he releases that, because he's a predator. Dog by nature is a predator. They're gonna move forward to release energy. You see it? So, but you want them to move forward with the right state of mind, right? Or when you tell the dog to move forward, right? That's just discipline. But people don't have that kind of understanding, and the dog end up doing whatever they want. So the dog end up, you know, putting people in a lawsuit, which another place where the dog doesn't know, you get in zoo about it, you know?

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  So he's not gonna, "Oh, my God, we're gonna lose money," you know? The dog is not gonna understand that concept.

• 1:05:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, we, as humans, we project so much onto other species, other people. And in the backdrop of everything we're talking about, I'm hoping that people are seeing the ways in which they can show up in circumstances with more calmness.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:06:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Especially if it's not reflexive. You know, before every episode, I pray. I do. I ask for certain things. I try and open up certain things so that I realize not all of this is under our control. That's my belief, and I try and invite certain things in. So it's not reflexive. I do it as a, you call it a discipline. I'm happy to do it, but I think people assume that you're either calm or you're an anxious person. People assume that their dog is either calm or anxious. This is a terrible misconception. I think we can become calmer regardless of where we are in our natural levels of anxiety.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  But animals do not, will never choose anxiety or be, or live an anxious life, right? We're the only species that follow unstable leaders, right? So to be the pack leader in the animal world, you have to be the most patient, the most calm, the most confident, the most loving, the more joyful. Everything has to be at 100%. Then you can be a pack leader, right? And your job is to resolve problems, right? That's practically it. So the least thing you can do is to bring problems. Anxiety, fear, insecurities, all of that stuff is something that you bring back home. You don't want that.

• 1:07:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  So before people hit the door coming home, they should do a check-in with self?

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  They should do a little prayer, too. "God, just let me be silent, calm, confident, love, and joy to my dog." That's it. "I wanna practice no touch, no eye contact, and just help my dog to calm down, and then I'm gonna give him affection." I'm not saying not to give affection. I'm just saying, give affection to patience and calmness and open mind, right? Because when your dog misbehave, you want him to go back there. Go back to your good state of mind, right? You don't want the dog to do fight-flight avoidance. Those are the bad state of mind. The good state of mind is patience, calm, surrender, or happy-go-lucky. Those are good state of mind.

• 1:08:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think here I'm projecting a lot and assuming a lot, but I think a lot of people, deep down, I think they probably like that their dog is so quote-unquote "happy to see them" at the end of the day.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  Excited, excited.

• 1:08:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because I think many people feel devoid of real love and connection, and the idea that they're "fur baby." I really don't like this term. They're not babies. Yes, they have fur. But like, I think, out of respect for animals, we have to remember that they're animals first. When I first heard you say, like, they're, you know, they're spirit, animal.

• 1:08:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:08:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, species, and then breed, and then...

• 1:08:44Speaker 00

  The name.

• 1:08:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  The name. It was so helpful for me. Because I don't want to get into it here, because it's not directly relevant. But in science, I've worked with humans, worked with animals, and, you know, I stopped working with animals, because it was really hard on my soul.

• 1:08:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  I understand biomedical research. I understand, which is a whole other discussion. But even just the way that people would start to talk about animals, like, we work on them, not with them. And this is a complicated issue we could get into sometime. But I started to realize, like, we start using words to either dehumanize or humanize animals. And both are terrible.

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  Well, both.

• 1:09:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  So when I heard you give this description of, you know, spirit, animal, et cetera, I was like, he's saying, "Don't humanize these animals, because it makes them feel unsafe."

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, or confused.

• 1:09:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or confused, yeah. And years later, I realized, again, with all due respect to biomedical research and the need to make discoveries, I do think there's too much animal research that's unnecessary, these kinds of things. Some is essential, but, et cetera. But I realized there, we're dehumanizing animals. And I thought, "Oh, my goodness." Because I had this incredible contradiction in my mind. It was a real soul dilemma. Like, I love Costello. I, it was like he was a family member. And I was willing to do all this work on myself and with him. But in my profession, I was observing things where I thought, "This is not okay." And I stopped. I'm gonna work with humans.

• 1:10:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Even saying, "I work on humans," you hear scientists say, "This is terrible, terrible." And I think words matter to humans, because they shape how we behave.

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:10:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  And so I'm noticing a theme throughout today, where you have words and simple ways for people to remember. No look, no touch, no speak, right? Exercise, discipline, then affection, et cetera. That's telling people, people stuff in people language. But the level that you're really interested in and you're trying to convey is the animal experience and then the spiritual experience. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you here, but this is the structure that I hear emerging. I think will be very useful to people, because we're going high level, low level, all the time. So if people could start to think about themselves in this way, and think about their animals.

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 1:11:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  I think a lot of people are gonna say, "Oh, no. I come home and I want to be loved by my fur babies, and I want them to, and I miss you, and I want to do FaceTime with you," and like, you know, and... I think people genuinely, however, want their animal to feel safe. They want their animal to feel secure.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  Number one.

• 1:11:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  And when I think about real love, it's about safety and security first. So for someone that has, like, the other day, I was in the hospital visiting a friend and the woman behind the counter, we were talking. She said, she said, I have two Frenchies. I said, well, you work long shifts. She goes, yeah, they're home alone. I come home, they're pooping and peeing. I feel so guilty.

• 1:11:48Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:11:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  And my first thought was, you shouldn't own those dogs, but she's in love with the dogs. I thought, well, okay, so I passed along a little bit of what I learned. She's at, and she just said flat out, I can't do it. I can't do it. There's no way I could come home and they're going crazy and I'm, and excited to see me that I couldn't just pick them up and just hold them. But it's making them anxious.

• 1:12:08Speaker 00

  She's nurturing.

• 1:12:09Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  The same nurse that is helping humans to be healthy, she's helping her dogs to be unhealthy. It's so contrary, that was exactly what you were going through, you know? Working with humans versus working on humans, right? So she's helping other species, right? But the species that she's in love with, she is not. But that's because the story she is, is accepting in her head. She's agreeing with that, right? There's, I have so much guilt that I can't stop it, right? Cause that's what she's trying to do to numb her guilt.

• 1:12:41Andrew D. Huberman?

  When I was growing up, most people didn't have dogs in our neighborhood. Suburban neighborhood, um, there were few dogs. Now everyone's got a dog. It's like having a phone. Everyone's got a dog. This doesn't seem like a good thing.

• 1:12:56Speaker 00

  It's a great thing for me, cause I get, I love to teach people, you know, uh, about energy, philosophy and actions. I want people to have a trust, respect, love. The most incredible relationship with a dog is, you know, that's a, a dog really makes you a good human if you do things right. And then once you practice that, you can just give it to other humans. Cause it makes it tangible. Is energy really work? Yeah. What about if I have a good philosophy? That that really works? Yeah, it works. What about if my actions are good? If that really works? Yeah. Now you combine the three and watch what your dog does, right? And then you go and do the same thing with other humans. Right? So you create this beautiful, uh, trust, respect, love with humans or connection, communication, relationship. You go and create safe, peace and love environments. Horse people are really good about safety, right?

• 1:13:40Speaker 00

  So, so the priority in the horse world is not love. The priority is saved. So, uh, so a horse person is gonna teach a child, don't scream, no touch, no talk, no eye contact, right? So the kid will learn that with a horse, you have to be quiet, calm and wait until the horse, uh, give you the signal. And the same person will go and teach the kid with dogs, ask if you can pet them. Right? But because in the horse world, safety is number one. How do you keep a horse calm? And you wait. And then the horse come, what, what, how do they walk a horse? The wa, the horse is right by, next to the human, never in front.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  Right? So people can, people, you can see a little kid walking a horse. You see it? And the horse is behind the kid, not in front of the kid. But first is the meeting. And then the third thing is feeding the horse. If the horse is too excited, don't put the hay yet. Wait until the horse comes down, then the hay goes down. The meeting, the walk and the feeding.

• 1:14:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  Incredible. And they're big, so we have this natural respect for them that people don't necessarily have for a dog. But a dog obviously can bite, you know?

• 1:14:52Speaker 00

  But why not have that respect for someone that we say, you know, man, a dog is man's best friend? Yeah. The dog has the best titles of all the animals in the, on earth, right? The dog. But when it comes to the actions, we don't honor the dog because we want the dog to be a human. We don't respect the dog because we want the dog to be a human. When you honor and respect somebody, you honor who they are. You respect who they are. You learn about how they are and that's what you love. See it? You love who they are. You don't love what you think. You love who they are.

• 1:15:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you don't try and project that there's somebody else. I think some people, I'm making assumptions here, but some people will hear some of what we're talking about today and they'll say, oh, well, that's how I should become the pack leader. With people, I should never let anyone walk through a door before me or something like, but the point you're trying to make is that human to human is different than animal to human. You don't just transfer the same thing. Some things transfer, but other things don't.

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've worked with non-human primates before.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:15:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's interesting, a lot of people will go to the zoo. I'm not a big fan of, you know, putting large carnivores and primates in zoos. I'm not, I wanna be clear, I don't, you know, I, I have issues with that. But people will smile at the monkey or they'll go like, you know, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee. For a macaque monkey, baring teeth is aggression. So a friend of mine, she's an animal behaviorist and she said, oh no, if you, if you want to do an affiliative behavior with, with a monkey, you lip smack, which sounds kinda cute and funny. And people go, oh, but you, you could tell somebody that a hundred times and they'll still go, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee. Like, it's like we want to project our own understanding of what we think is going on.

• 1:16:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  And even in the presence of knowledge, your dog is going to feel more safe and secure and happy if you come in, no look, no touch, no speak.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's something about the human brain where we just wanna project, no, but I want my experience. And it's an incredibly selfish thing. It was really the realization for me, it's very selfish of me to come home and want a certain kind of interaction with my pet, Costello. But to put the interaction in the terms that work for me. As, and I said, you know, this is the first time I owned a dog. Everyone in my life for the longest time, they're like, you're never, I was talking about it since I was a kid. You're never gonna get a dog. I waited until I had the finances, till I had a home. I waited, I'm very proud of the fact that I waited. I desperately wanted an animal for so long, since I was a little kid. I had fish and things like that, but I wanted a dog. I knew at the time when I got him, that it was the right time.

• 1:17:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I had to be very careful because I wanted it to go so well that I found myself projecting, what if he doesn't attack? Would it, would it, and there was all this and stuff. And then I read your book and I realized, if I want this to go really well, I have to get out of my understanding of what I need on my terms and start thinking about what he needs and I need in his language.

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:17:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  And it was like this light bulb went off. I'm just, you know, this is really a statement of gratitude that hopefully will be informative for people. Because we, the human brain just is like, no, I wanna be loved and so I'm gonna do this thing that's actually harming the thing that I, I say is my fur baby.

• 1:18:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like, no one would ever hurt their fur babies, but they're, they're doing it.

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  By projecting human stuff. Anyway, I'm telling you what you already know, but I think it's just something I really wanna underscore because people hear affection last, like, this is just a, you know, guys being like, I'm alpha. No. It's the complete opposite of, it, it's about respecting the animal.

• 1:18:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, it's about safe, peace, trust, respect. Once you have those two pillars, then you bring the love. Cause that's what you wanna love. You wanna love the trust and respect. Not because you love people, you trust them. Not because you love people, you respect them. So love, love is his own energy, his own, you know, identity. But you want to love trust, you want to love respect. That's what you want to love. You want to love a place that you feel safe and peace. That's what you want to love. That's the land part, right? And then the relation, trust, respect. Then, you know, the way you experience the world, body, mind, heart, right? So at least those three things, just do it that way, you know, just put love at the end. It won't hurt you. It will only make you wiser, right? It will only make you more patient, more, more, more, more, more calm.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  And, and you will see the outcome. The reason why I said no touch, no talk, no eye contact is because if you want to touch a, a back of the pack dog, he's gonna run away. If you give eye contact to a front of the pack dog, it's exactly what the monkey is, is, it means, it means fight. When you're looking at somebody, I wanna touch him, right? And then when you, uh, talk to a, to a middle of the pack, you're gonna get him very excited. So if you practice no touch, no talk, no eye contact to any position of the pack, what you're going to allow is no eyes, ears to come to you. You see it? So you're gonna create a law of attraction. The dog is gonna come to your smell. And then he's gonna assess and evaluate, can I trust? Can I respect? Do I feel safe? Are you a peaceful human? That's what you want them to know about you.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  That you can be trusted, that you can be respected, that you feel, that you can be a safe source, a peaceful source. Then, once the dog, okay, yeah, you have that. Then the dog is gonna sit right next to you, it's gonna do this, or he's just gonna relax. As soon as he gives you that, that's when you give love. So it's nothing wrong if you wait a little bit, right? There's nothing wrong. You just, you're just following the steps. You are the one who's being disciplined. You see it? To be a good leader, you have to be a good follower. So you have to understand the power of calm surrender. You have to understand the power of patience. If you don't understand that, you're gonna be a terrible leader. So I'm not telling people be a pack leader just because you, you're the dog owner. No, no, no. I'm telling you what it requires to be a pack leader.

• 1:20:46Speaker 00

  The highest level of patience, the highest level of calmness, highest level of confidence. And then knowing when to give love and know when to celebrate. Love, joy is a celebration energy. This one is direction protection. We, what do we want for, of our pack leaders, like politicians? We want to, we want to have an, an America that feels safe peace. We want to have a Mexico that feels safe peace. We wanna have Argentina that feels safe peace. We wanna have a Colombia that feels safe peace. We wanna have a Venezuela that feels safe peace. Otherwise, we can't feel the love. We wanna have somebody that we trust and respect so we can love them. Right? That's what we want, is, is our instinct to want this. It's our spirit to, to want this.

• 1:21:31Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 1:22:16Andrew D. Huberman?

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• 1:22:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code HUBERMAN for a $50 credit towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman. These days, most leaders of countries seem to get there by projecting the most confidence that nothing can faze them. That seems to be the competition on both sides of the political eye. It's like, who is more certain of the statement they're making? This is like, and this is like, just seems to be the thing we select for, not the traits you're describing. Got my theories as to why that's so, but I think we can all look around and see how that's going.

• 1:23:37Speaker 00

  We can learn a lot from animals, right? I think all leaders should show us, you know, themselves with a pack of dogs so we can assess and evaluate their energy well. Because they say the philosophy we want to hear, right? They always talk great about the intellectual part people want to hear, but then the energy and then the actions, that's what we end up seeing at the end, right? Look at Mexico, right? We always, oh, a woman president, Mexico is going to be well taken care. Same, no safe, no peace, no trust, no respect. It's the same, it's a continuation of the same philosophy, but they're all saying great things. You see what I mean? I don't like the dogs. I say, you know, listen, I'm going to bring you back your silence, your calmness, your

• 1:24:22Speaker 00

  surrender. That's my contribution to you because your humans made you fight-flight avoidance. And boom, I don't say nothing to the dog, I just feel it and I do it. I skip the saying, because they don't care about what I say, they care about what I feel and what I do. The human cares about what you say. So you can just brain-watch the human all you want, lie to the human, and the human will vote. We're the only species that follow unstable leaders. There is no species that will vote for somebody that has unstable energy to begin with. They can care less what they're saying.

• 1:24:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  I watched that series on Netflix, Chimp Empire. It's fascinating, you know, it's very hierarchical, you know, troops and the alpha occasionally will feel like he's losing some control over his troop. And he'll go on these displays where he starts breaking trees and beating his chest, and they look a lot more like humans, humans look a lot more like them. But I saw an interview with Jane Goodall. You've probably seen this, where they said, you know, what is your favorite thing about them? And she says, no, dogs are my favorite species. You can really trust them. The chimps are way too much like us, they lie, they cheat, they... I mean, if you watch Chimp Empire, brace yourself for, you know, when they decide

• 1:25:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  they're going to ostracize a member of their group. They make them suffer an extended punishment. It's brutal. And that's the primate brain. Sadly, humans were supposed to move beyond that, that's our role. I'm making the assumption that some people either have a dog or they're thinking about getting one.

• 1:26:02Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:26:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Preparing oneself for every interaction sounds like the thing to do until it becomes reflexive. It also, it's a lot of work. Like you describe a brief prayer at the door, setting intention, I think that's awesome.

• 1:26:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, good habits.

• 1:26:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Waking up in the morning. I will say hello to Strummer. I take care of myself first, move about. If he has to use the bathroom or something, I'd let him out right away, but he waits, and then he gets up, and then we do our thing. But the temptation to walk over there and just, he's, you know, he's sleepy, he's a bulldog, he's calm, and just grow, like, because I love him. My heart fills when I, you know, walk in the room with him. I think this is the thing that a lot of people are challenged with, but they're like... So for me, temporarily breaking down my notion of cuteness was very important. He doesn't understand cute.

• 1:26:56Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:26:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  He has no concept of cute. He only understands what he understands. I'm the one projecting, like, oh, but he's like, I want to cuddle him and I want to play with him. I confess this is easier for me to do now that I've done it with one dog before, it's much harder for my girlfriend to do. She's like, she gets pulled in. We joke, you caved to love, we joke, you know? It's like we caved to our own feelings of love, but it can damage the safety and the general pack order. And then people think, oh, pack order sounds like not love. Could you elaborate a little bit on why it's so important to stay in the frame of, we're really asking humans to think more like dogs, but to behave in a way that is somewhere in between?

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  80% of my clients are women, 80%. When I go to, you know, their home, because I like to assess and evaluate the dynamics inside the house, the dog is in the front, wife is number two, kids are number three, husband is in the back, back of the pack.

• 1:27:55Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is in the United States.

• 1:27:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, the United States, yeah, yeah, yeah, the United States. So, why did dogs in the front? She puts them there. Why? Because she only practice affection. And why the husband is in the back? Because she practice rules, boundaries, limitations with him. You see it? So look, so she is capable to practice leadership, but she practices with the wrong member in the house. The dog needs the leadership, right? Because why did they call me? Because now the dog doesn't, the kids can walk him, you know, the friends, kids can come to the house. The dog steals food, right? Or the dog barks at the neighbors, right?

• 1:28:39Speaker 00

  They don't have the ideal life that they chose, or they thought they were going to have by having this labradoodle. It should be the easiest one, right? Because those two breeds are practically, you know, the epitome of like most Dussel breed.

• 1:28:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  I know. I tell the labradoodle people, like, try raising a bulldog mastiff, right? From eight weeks on, like, you'll learn a lot about yourself.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  It's a different strength, right? So this breed should be easier, because it's designed to be easier. But because they only practice affection first, only affection, the dog end up going in front of the pack. So this is what happens when people wants to practice affection first, or when they prioritize affection to the dog, but to the rest of the pack, it's very clear for me that she practiced rules, boundaries, limitations to the husband. He has to do whatever she said, but the dog doesn't do whatever she says. You see? So that we have to change, you know? We have to help people to understand, it's not that love is bad, it's just why are you

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  giving love to?

• 1:29:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm so happy you're raising this. I think some people will say, well, she has to treat the husband basically like a child because he's playing video games. I'm making the assumption here that we don't know what the dynamics are between the husband and the wife. And I have a lot of married couple friends where it seems very balanced, I don't know what happens when I'm not there, obviously, but I know some where, yes, indeed, like there's some infantilization of the male, but he does that to himself too. He's behaving like a kid. Or I also have seen very balanced, and I've seen where it's a bit more of kind of the structure I grew up in, at least for the early part of my life. Maybe it's because my father's from South America, but until my parents split, it was like, my dad was the dad, and then it was my mom, and then, you know, and then there was the kids, and sadly, we didn't have a dog.

• 1:30:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  But things are very different nowadays, right? And so I'm trying to... Remove any assumptions that the dynamic between the husband and wife are that way solely because of one or the other. It's it's there's an agreement there.

• 1:30:50Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:30:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  There's always an agreement.

• 1:30:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, the agreement is that he surrender. Yeah, that's the agreement. At one point, you don't want fight, flight, avoid, and so the guy end up surrendering. But the dog didn't. The dog took over.

• 1:31:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  And you also don't want so domineering that she's in fight, flight, surrender.

• 1:31:06Speaker 00

  Correct. We don't want that.

• 1:31:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  That exists too, and that's bad also.

• 1:31:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, my relationship now with a woman is is I have a good instinctual relationship. Right, because my masculine energy is the the one who gives direction, protection. When before I used to follow this concept of happy wife, happy life. And is is how can I make her happy? She has to make herself happy. So I end up surrendering to everything she wanted. And and so this concept of, you know, happy wife, happy life, didn't work for me. Right, but and so I just went back and to okay, I'm just gonna be calm, confident and attract a woman that wants to be calm, surrender to this area, which is the instinctual area.

• 1:31:53Speaker 00

  Spiritually, we're the same, emotionally, we're the same, financially, you know, we're the same. But instinctually, that's the part that I I I couldn't I couldn't just not be masculine, right, or calm, confident. I just couldn't. I just couldn't. And that that's it works beautiful now.

• 1:32:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, it sounds like you you've hit the bullseye.

• 1:32:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  There. Actually, I've since we're talking about human relationships. I have a friend, he has a very happy, very successful marriage in the real sense that you walk into their home. Like they have some, they have a couple of kids. One of them has some special needs, but that they're managing that well. The home is very balanced. They seem very, very happy. And he was giving advice to some other guys. And he said, you know, among the the women that would be like partners, good partners for you. Yeah, you have to make a decision about how much you want somebody who's gonna give you instructions versus leave you alone versus wants, you know, some direction.

• 1:33:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's a very edgy thing to say, you know, at the time. Now, you can have these kinds of conversations.

• 1:33:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, finally.

• 1:33:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, and it and it was very interesting. There were three other guys at the table, none of whom are married, including me. And we each had different answers to that question. One said, yeah, I want somebody that I can like really be in like kind of wants to be led.

• 1:33:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:33:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Not subservient, you know, obviously, respect and kindness, but but the other one. He said, I want someone who's like really gonna like keep me in line. I was like, I was very shocked. I was like, this is incredible. But he was being he was being honest. He wants someone who's basically gonna like keep him out of his childlike nature.

• 1:33:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:33:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  When the childlike nature wasn't gonna help.

• 1:33:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:33:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Keep the structure of the home. I think it's a very important thing, this notion of we don't have good words for this to keep us off of the barbed wire. Like we hear dominance, hierarchy, and it sounds like control. It sounds like subservience. It gets into notions of like all sorts of things. But this is a fundamental aspect of the human spirit.

• 1:34:04Speaker 00

  That's the instinctual part. Like I said, we can both love God at the same level. We can love, love at the same level, and we can all develop our intelligence at the same level. But when it comes to instincts, that's the only area in my life that I know that I my calm confidence is going to lead my pack. Right, because that's what I do with dogs. That's practically it. I walk a pack of dogs, so they all gotta go into a calm surrender state. And so in my house, I wanted the same thing because I want her to feel safe peace. I want her to trust, respect. I wanted her to love that about me. But I have to be that man that has a high level of patience, high level of calmness, high level of confidence, high level of love. I need to earn that position.

• 1:34:49Speaker 00

  I don't just want it. I earned it. But I need to have a woman that understands, you know, that that's what I'm looking for. Right, yeah, instinctually, not in the mind, not in the heart, so it's temporary. No, no, no, this is permanently. You know, your instincts, and I will provide safe peace. I will be a peaceful man, a safe man to be with, a trustworthy man, a respectful man, a loving man. Right, smart man. I will always work on having good energy and only follow good philosophy and only doing good actions because I want that position.

• 1:35:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Did you take some time before your current relationship after your divorce to sort of feel into this and and think about how you were gonna be that? Or is this something that you decided to evolve in the?

• 1:35:40Speaker 00

  I realized that I was picking the I was picking the wrong woman. Right, I was I was I I couldn't understand why I can pick a dog and and make him the perfect dog. I can pick a perfect dog for you, like I can go pick. I couldn't pick up the perfect woman for me. I just want the one for me. Right, what I think is perfect for me. And so I I had a trouble because I had the wrong philosophy inside my head. You know, what a man should to do or what a man, woman should do. It was the wrong philosophy, period. Right, once I changed the philosophy, and then I went, okay, I just I need to find a woman with this spirit, with this instinct, with this heart and with this mind. So I was more like clear, right? Okay, now now I know what I'm looking for.

• 1:36:24Speaker 00

  Right, and she's a pack leader, but not in the house. She's a pack leader. She has three restaurants, she has a lot of money, right? But she earned it. She did it on her own. Right? And and that was that was it. She came, said, I just want to give you my calm surrender. I said, that's all I want from a woman, you know, to have a beautiful relationship.

• 1:36:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  So she knew that she wanted to be in the role that she currently is.

• 1:36:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Also, like there was a knowledge of self going into it.

• 1:36:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, because when she, you know, she's doing her business, she has to be a pack leader. They get tired of being pack leaders. Right, they just just get tired of like, I don't wanna, you know, give direction and protection 24/7, even at home. So at home, she just wanted somebody to give her safe peace, trust, respect, calm surrender. That's she needed to connect to her instincts. Right, it was important because, you know, she connects to to God, so she's calm, surrender to God. Right, so she's calm, surrender to the business. She's but she needed to be calm, surrender to a man. But it has to be the right man. So I was the right man at that time, right? Because I I earned the position. You know, I didn't just my chism was you're not earning the position. You're just a man and da, da, da. No, no, no.

• 1:37:39Speaker 00

  When you're a good pack leader, you earn the position. You know who you are. You value who you are, and that's the and that's what you love, self-knowledge, self-value, self-love. So I did my my rehabilitation for me. Because, you know, even though my grandparents and my and my father taught me well about animals, they didn't tell me well about women. They said, you make money and you get whatever you want. That was it.

• 1:38:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, that's incomplete.

• 1:38:04Speaker 00

  It's like, how do I assess and evaluate is that's the right woman? How do I how do I do? How do I make sure I do good connection, communication, relationship? Everything I teach with a dog, how do I? How can I achieve it with my same species? Right, but I didn't receive information. Right, I just I was just given a project. And I accomplished it. I became money, fame, power, and I just went and grabbed whatever was available.

• 1:38:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, I can certainly say my I'll just be direct.

• 1:38:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, please.

• 1:38:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Why tapped it? I mean, I think my parents split because of a a power struggle about roles and power. And my father's from a Latin country, my mother's not, but irrespective of that.

• 1:38:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  It didn't matter. I used to think that was the reason, but it was now fortunately, they both remarried. They've been remarried for a very long time, very happily to their new partner. And my sister and I always say like, they're like with their perfect fit.

• 1:38:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  It just like works.

• 1:39:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:39:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because of exactly what you're describing, these these dynamics.

• 1:39:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, I think I didn't say, but I saw online at some point, someone said, you know, the way you destroy a country is to get the men and women to hate each other. And we see that a lot now. I like to think maybe things are improving a little bit, but so much of what we see because of Anger at leaders, frustration with, you know, social dynamics and belief about what people can and can't become. All of this stuff has led to this place of a ton of distrust, but that power structure is all messed up.

• 1:39:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, they fight flight avoid each other, right? But they say they love each other.

• 1:39:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they still, because there's an instinct there, they still desire each other, right? I mean, men and women are still seeking to be together, but you hear the, you know, all the guys are like kids and you hear the, all the women are, you know, they want something that they, you know, can't be achieved in this common thing and, you know, and you.

• 1:39:57Speaker 00

  Confusion.

• 1:39:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, a lot of confusion. And of course, I know some very happy couples that where they've worked it out. But the roles in those couples seem very, it's like they're being themselves and it just works.

• 1:40:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:10Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:10Speaker 00

  I just don't want to think about it. I just want to feel it, right? I just want my spirit, my instinct and my heart. And I know what I gotta do anyway. I'm 56, I know what I gotta do. But I just don't want to have a fight flight avoidance at home. Right? I just don't want to have that ever, ever, ever, ever. Right? So it's, it's very clear to me, you know, that, uh, that what I were looking for is exactly what everybody looks for in a relationship. Human dog. Safe, peace, love, trust, respect, love. Body, mind, heart, exercise, discipline, affection. Follow, play, explore. Everybody wants the same thing. They just do it with a different species. I want to be able to do it with a different species and my own species.

• 1:40:53Speaker 00

  You know, and, and, and, and I'm, I'm the happiest I ever been.

• 1:40:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, you, you breathe and exude happiness. I have to say it's, it's real. It's tangible.

• 1:41:04Speaker 00

  It's amazing because I was already happy with, with my goal in life, right? My dream was to become the best dog trainer in the world. And I became the dog whisperer. So I train humans, I don't train dogs, right? So, so this dream was bigger than what I thought. But then I could have a good relationship with a woman, which was fascinating to me at that time. Why I have fight flight avoidance? Why I don't have calm, surrender, happy-go-lucky, calm, confident? Why I don't? I'm not saying my woman is not calm, confident towards me. If I'm wrong, and then, yeah, she can, you know, give direction protection. But if I'm not, there's no need. Right? So that, that makes me a very consistent man with my, with my role. That's it. I keep my peace, I keep my, my, my patience, my calmness, my confidence,

• 1:41:49Speaker 00

  my love much every single day of my life. I, I don't miss one day, even if I don't feel good. You see it? I internally, I'm a hundred.

• 1:41:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  Because with people, it only takes once to be on the receiving end of, um, an outburst to just, there's always that little asterix going forward. I share with you the, um, the deep desire, and fortunately I have it now, to not have fight or flight at home.

• 1:42:19Speaker 00

  Or from a dog either.

• 1:42:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Or from a dog either. That always scary exactly. So I'm guessing that the home you grew up in had a fair amount of fight or flight. Otherwise, maybe that would be.

• 1:42:28Speaker 00

  It was very machismo, you know? My parents still married. But that's all, you know, it was, it was this way or that's it, you know? So it was definitely a more like sadness, right? Because my mom was not allowed to do her own self, you know? And, and so that's obviously not healthy for, for the dream of, of a woman, right? So she has to, you know, have, just be a mom and stay at home. And it was, uh, it was hard for her, you know? Yeah, but that's, that's all I saw, you know? Yeah, when, when my dad will, um, discipline, will discipline with anger. And when my mom would discipline, would discipline with guilt.

• 1:43:13Speaker 00

  You know, and, and that was it. But it worked a little bit. Then I come to America and there's, ah, it's, it's a completely different way of looking at things, right? You can work on your energy, you can work on your philosophy, you can work on your actions. And then you can become just as good as you are with a dog. Because I have an incredible relationship with dogs, right? And an incredible relationship with God because he definitely allowed me to become what I dream about, right? And I came and did it in a different country. I have to learn a different language, right? And then I went all over the world. That was God, right? Me following the spirit and, and the instinct. Now I can tell you how I did it. But in the beginning, when I jumped the border, it was all spiritual and it was all instinctual.

• 1:43:58Speaker 00

  It was all passion. It was not the mind doing it. It was just my spirit and my instinct and my heart, just following this dream, right? And adapting. I have to learn this, I have to this. But then at the same time, I saw a lot of great things in America. You know, like you can be you. Oh, yeah, you can be you. That's great. This is a good philosophy, the Stoics. That's a great philosophy, right?

• 1:44:22Speaker 00

  And then your actions, okay? Just walk, shoulders up, head high, breathe, walk. And that's practically body language, you know? Also exudes what you're thinking and what you're feeling. And because I'm with dogs all day, I just keep that energy 24/7.

• 1:44:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's beautiful. The, um, as a practical tangent, the, the thing about just shoulders back and walk, I think it's funny to see when people try this. They're like, like, I'm gonna be the pack leader. That doesn't work. And I'll tell you, it really doesn't work with a bulldog mastiff.

• 1:44:57Speaker 00

  No, can't fake.

• 1:44:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  If you get frustrated with them, they feel it and they pull back. It's wild. They just can feel it. Like if you're frustrated, let's go. It's like, no, I'll sometimes give a little bit of a stern. I have one little command that I occasionally use. I keep its potency. But if Costello, or in this case Strummer, is really being stubborn just for stubborn sake, I'll do tch, and that's it.

• 1:45:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:45:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  That's all it takes. But if I do that more than three times on a walk, it loses its potency.

• 1:45:27Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:45:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's just my way of saying like, no. It's just a no.

• 1:45:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  But I don't say no. And if I were.

• 1:45:33Speaker 00

  You feel it.

• 1:45:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah. And if I were to tch, tch, tch. And I'm realizing as I say this, that little tch is probably more of a reminder to myself.

• 1:45:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  As much as it's a reminder to him.

• 1:45:42Speaker 00

  It happened to both.

• 1:45:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I'm just kind of trying to create this thing like, no, we're go, I lead this walk, you need this walk, I need this walk. We're doing this walk. And he just.

• 1:45:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  He goes. Now, it's a little bit tougher when my girlfriend walks him. He tests her more. So can we talk about that when a dog is in a very respectful one person, obeys the boundaries, but then to other people, they're acting out? How should that be remedied? If the three of us walk together, for instance, he'll do whatever she, she wants. With me, he does whatever I decide.

• 1:46:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  Okay? But sometimes with her, she'll say, he was great. Nah, he was really difficult. How does one facilitate that?

• 1:46:19Speaker 00

  I think the first thing women have to realize is how much they are in their emotions and how much they think about things, right? So, uh, uh, you know, the fact that we go into the silence and the calmness and just we follow through is, is, that's the spirit, the instinct and the mind. And that's what, that's what's walking the dog. But in my experience, women go into the emotional, uh,

• 1:46:46Speaker 00

  vibration and then they say, Costello, vamos, grrrrr. And they begin to have an intellectual conversation. So the dog knows that that human is only using half of who they are, which is the heart and the mind, right? And so it's very important for women to remember that spirit is a powerful thing. And so how are I gonna practice silence? And it's instinct is a powerful thing. How I'm gonna practice instinct, breath? You're calm inside, right? And you just want to go from point A to point B. Very simple, very practical. You're not negotiating, you're not looking at anything else, you're not distracted. You're just going, you know, for the task. And then the dog just follows that silence, the calmness and the confidence.

• 1:47:31Speaker 00

  It's when the human doesn't use that vibration that a dog has an option to get distracted, to do other things, to go away from the routine or from the structure, from whatever you want, you want to do. But at the same time, the same woman can ride a horse. And in order to ride a horse, she have to be quiet, calm, confident.

• 1:47:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, yeah. I might, my first girlfriend was a, she had horses at home.

• 1:47:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  They had a stable below their, their home. They actually weren't that wealthy, but her dad actually had like a, not even a junior high school education. He came over from Greece, he became a taxi driver. And he was gonna give his daughters this life. And they had this horse. And it was incredible to see her, because she's a very, very quiet person, actually, very artistic.

• 1:48:13Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:48:14Andrew D. Huberman?

  And, but with her horse, and he was a wild one. He was gelded late. And so it was a whole thing. And, but her in the presence of that horse, like she just understood. Because he was dangerous. He was actually a dangerous animal. And a totally different side of her came out. And that's the first time I realized, I was like, I was, I mean, I was a teenager, right? But I was like, oh, like she has this immense power. That's not like the kind of power that we think about. Of course, women have power and, you know, all this. But it was a completely different landscape. And I was like, whoa. I mean, first of all, I can't do that.

• 1:48:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:48:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  I had to learn to be around him.

• 1:48:49Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:48:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  But just the, the level of calm and confidence to clean a horse, like, you know, a horse can kill you.

• 1:48:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right? But if you walk around going, oh my gosh, this horse can kill me, it does not go well.

• 1:49:02Speaker 00

  But exactly, you know? So what we have to remember is, is the human part before the gender, right? So just go back to your human. Can a man and a woman ride a horse? Yeah. Why? Because they're using the same energy and the same philosophy and the same actions. So I said, because it's a man or a woman? No, no, it's because they're using the same energy. So it's a human thing, right? Not a gender thing, right? So I invite, you know, my, my, uh, female clients to, don't forget, you also have this calm, confident inside of you that your dog needs, right? Craves, especially in Europe, because most of the time people call me, because the dog is in a fight state, right? So most of my cases are aggression. And so in your case, you have no choice. You have to lead the pack.

• 1:49:48Speaker 00

  And the only way you can lead the pack is with calm confidence. You love the pack with love and joy. So you already know how to do that, right? You have to get, you have to tap into what people call masculine energy, right? That's so, can, can, can a woman ride a horse? Yes, she has to be in this energy to do it. You see it? She has to. So she, they just have to learn to recognize, okay, I'm not changing me, I'm just using everything about me, right? It's like a man, can a man use the feminine side? Yes, you can, of course, you have it, right? It's your love, joy. And your masculinity, your calm, confident. Silence is for everybody. It's your patience, right? So silence is before calm, confidence or love, joy.

• 1:50:31Speaker 00

  And this is what they call feminine and this is what they call masculine, right? So it's, however you want to call it, just be the whole human. Use your spirit, use your instinct, use your heart, use your mind. Trust, respect, love, and then do whatever your mind wants to do. It has nothing to do with women or a man. But if we divide and we see each other's different, or say, no, it's because I'm a woman, I have to be emotional. Yes, you can be emotional at the right time, just like a man can be emotional at the right time. Nobody's saying not to be loving. What we're saying is how to use this energy for good, where you reward good behavior on humans and good behavior on dogs with the energy of love, right?

• 1:51:16Speaker 00

  If the energy of love can change bad, it will be no bad men in the world, right? Because moms normally give you love, but love doesn't change the bad energy. It's the calm confidence that changed the bad energy.

• 1:51:31Andrew D. Huberman?

  The idea that, you know, society is broken, humans are broken. I mean, there are a lot of problems in the world right now.

• 1:51:38Speaker 00

  Purposely, by the way.

• 1:51:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  Tell me more.

• 1:51:40Speaker 00

  If we get the wrong information, we're gonna be no connection, communication, relationships. So how can we become powerful, right? Because when we unite, and then we become powerful, the pack unites. But if the pack is separated, the pack fights, flight, and avoid each other, right? So purposely, we get the wrong information. That's why my goal is to give people the right information. If you have low money, middle class, rich, it really doesn't matter. We should all know the same thing about dogs. We should all know the same thing about God. We should all know the same thing about earth, all of us. It has nothing to do with what position in the pack you are economically speaking. See it? So what is that world looks like?

• 1:52:20Speaker 00

  Well, that world looks like, like all humans around the world, regardless of the economical position, they're all gonna have an amazing relationship with dogs. How? Because they all have the same information. That's it.

• 1:52:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love that. I mean, I feel like we're drifting further and further away from ourselves as a species. And what I'm hearing is that, looking at our interactions with this other species, dogs, and looking at our, practicing our ability to get outside ourselves and tap into other aspects of ourselves, like the need for calm confidence when we just wanna be loving. That's really about wanting to be loved.

• 1:52:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, the person coming home is not, it's not that the dog needs their love. They can hear, oh, you know, actually, the dog needs calm confidence. But I translate it as, no, that this person just feels so tired at the end of the day. What they need is something that just adores them.

• 1:53:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, and the whole process of raising Costello was one of reading your book. Really, this is, this is why you're here. I mean, because I saw and experienced so much value from your teaching. And then realizing that if I really wanna get what I want.

• 1:53:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  It means building the relationship means not doing this thing in the moment. I'm thinking about the whole relationship, safety first, is that right? And so it's this kind of counterintuitive thing of needing to go against self in the moment to create the sort of picture where you get so much more and everybody wins.

• 1:53:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  There is a version of everybody, including the dog's wins.

• 1:53:53Speaker 00

  Everybody wins.

• 1:53:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  But it requires a level of self-discipline, awareness, calmness, breathing, that I think many people, and certainly in that time, I felt like just so much constant pressure to do, do, do. So there's a certain amount of slowing down and self-awareness that's required for everything that you're describing. What is your practice for that on a daily basis? I mean, you're a master now, right? You're a virtuoso at this. But for the, I would say, there's unskilled, skilled, master, and virtuosity. You're up here.

• 1:54:22Speaker 00

  Back of the pack, middle of the pack.

• 1:54:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  But so for somebody who's trying to move from unskilled to skilled in the domain of like slowing down, thinking about what the priority in this interaction is, getting all that working while life is happening in real time. Lots happening, and I was coming through the phone, and this and that, schedules. How do you recommend, young or old, that people start to cultivate this awareness and this?

• 1:54:46Speaker 00

  I think the quicker we become aware what is life about, right? Because we're all gonna die. And so what is life about? And life is about life, right? Life is to be happy, to be healthy, to be loving, and to be smart. That's life. And then it's time, how you structure, how you manage time, right? And then it's memories, that's all you take. Once you realize those three things, I think you're gonna be able to focus and experience life

• 1:55:14Speaker 00

  the way animals do, right? Because they're very grateful of life, they've structured time very wisely. And then by the time they die, they only take good memories, right? Because that's all you take, good memories. And so the quicker we surrender to that concept, the quicker we are going to focus on what's valuable, right? And what, and things that we can definitely practice, that this, this concept of love, right? And so that to me is be grateful of life every day, be thankful of life every day. You know, learn with your mind to learn, to achieve, give it away. It's very important to be at service and make other humans, you know, or animals, you know, achieve what you just achieved.

• 1:55:59Speaker 00

  And of course, you know, the energy of love, to love those three things about it, right? Your spirit, your instinct, and your mind. Learn to love that about you, because that's who you are. So who Caesar Milan? Caesar Milan is a spirit, he's an instinct, he's a heart, and he's a mind, right? So and then, oh, man, I value that so much. And that, once I value that, it's easy to love what you value. You see it? It's easy to love what you value. And so once you realize this, this natural, simple, profound self, you wanna give it away. I give it away to dogs. And because I do that, I get to rehabilitate dogs that people unconsciously have confused. See it? Because dogs in America, you know, dogs in the whole country are skinny, but they don't have psychological problems.

• 1:56:43Speaker 00

  Dogs in America are chunky, and I get to have a TV show. So dogs in America should be the happiest, healthiest, loving, smartest dog on earth. Because that, dogs in America have rights.

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  You understand that concept? But why would a guy from Mexico comes to America and National Geographic gives him a TV show? Because America created fight-flight avoidance unconsciously. Even though America loves dogs more than any other country I've ever seen in my life. Dogs have birthday parties in America, dogs have Christmas presents in America, dogs get merry in America.

• 1:57:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Dogs get merry?

• 1:57:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:25Speaker 00

  That's, you know, taking the humanization to another level. But that's, that's just shows you, you know, the creativity of human. But not because the dog has all this money, fame, and power, the dog is happy. My goal is for people to understand that, you know, happiness and health and having a good heart and having a good creative mind, it shouldn't take too much, right? It's just, it's just about being grateful, right? It's just about being thankful. It's about loving those two things. And then make sure that your mind learn, achieve, gives it away, or learn to turn it off. So don't use your mind to think bad things.

• 1:58:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's your process for turning off your mind? This is a very common challenge for people.

• 1:58:09Speaker 00

  I think the easiest way for people to experience, because they have to see it, right? You can tell people, da, da, da, da. But if they don't see it inside, they're never gonna see, understand what you mean. So what I help people with is I put them in the cold plunge, right? And once they go through the fight-flight avoidance, they wanna see, and they get to the calm surrender, what are you thinking? I'm thinking nothing. That's exactly what, what a clear mind looks like, right? So through that cold plunge experience, the human gets to understand breath, patience, you know, confidence, and not to think anything. Because you're doing this with your spirit and your instinct and your heart. This is, your mind just have to wait for the three minutes. That's it, without anticipation.

• 1:58:54Speaker 00

  So there's just nothing there, right? And then, of course, the cold doesn't let you think, right? But the only thing you can do is breathe and wait. And so then, once they see it, okay, that is the meaning of not having nothing in your mind, right? So I make them experience it, versus if I just tell them, they can't picture it.

• 1:59:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  As somebody who's a real believer, as you probably know, in deliberate cold exposure, I mean, I think it's, it's, people, it's zero cost. I mean, you use a cold shower, you know, it saves on the water bill. So this isn't like having to run out and buy something. What it tells me, because of the cold plunge. Immediately reliably releases adrenaline.

• 1:59:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:59:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Which then wakes up the brain as well.

• 1:59:37Speaker 00

  That's your instinct.

• 1:59:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Shuts down the forebrain, the very fascinating that you're saying this because the forebrain is strategy, et cetera. But in the first 20 or 30 seconds of deliberate cold exposure, the prefrontal cortex, which controls all the top down inhibition of impulse is, it's not shut off, but it is greatly diminished. You can't strategize well, you're just thinking out, you know? So you're saying people need to get past the point where they're trying to suppress impulse, but they need to experience adrenaline.

• 2:00:10Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 2:00:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  Got it.

• 2:00:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:00:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then they get to peace.

• 2:00:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yep. And that's the energy to bring to your interaction with your dog.

• 2:00:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:00:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  And ideally to your spouse and your kids too.

• 2:00:22Speaker 00

  Everywhere, everywhere. So a human after a cold plunge brings that energy everywhere. You don't have to talk. Everybody knows your energy feels really good. All because you went to mother nature, right? That was mother nature, cold, right? It's water, cold, that's mother nature, right? So imagine you bring that energy to your, to meeting a dog, to walking with a dog, to feeding a dog. That's it. That's all I want people to experience because everybody wants, ah, they want to do that, right? Or they want to do, I'm not aware of how I feel, I just want to give affection. You see it? So that, so that, that is good for the human, not necessarily good for everybody else. Because that human's spreading that energy.

• 2:01:03Speaker 00

  So my goal is for people to spread, you know, silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy. Because that's exactly how you feel after a cold plunge. Exactly in three minutes. You get into that state. You have to learn to love, you know, the, the process of, I'm going to fight flight avoidance, but I'm not going to listen to that part of me. I'm going to listen to my calm surrender. I'm going to listen to my calm confidence. And then once I finish, I'm going to listen to my happy galaki. And that's all you want. That's it. Those three states of minds are super powerful.

• 2:01:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, I've thought a lot about deliberate cold exposure, adrenaline, norepinephrine, you get this long arc of dopamine that lasts hours and hours and hours afterwards. And then my critics will say, well, it's just dopamine in the body, not in the brain. Actually, new findings show it's dopamine in your brain and body. Long arc, very few things produce this thing of long lasting dopamine. Drugs will spike and drop.

• 2:01:58Speaker 00

  Right. Well, a good relationship with a dog is long lasting dopamine. You know, a well balanced dog is a long lasting, whatever you want, you know? I hope you want the four worlds, your spirit, your instinct, your heart and your mind, all of them by walking. Just walk with the dog for a long period of time, then you do your play explorer. That's the best medicine any human can, can get.

• 2:02:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's the, the amount of peace that I still get from my relationship with Costello. I mean, he's passed now, but he's still.

• 2:02:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, everywhere.

• 2:02:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  Believe in his spirit is, I mean, I would.

• 2:02:33Speaker 00

  Spirit never dies.

• 2:02:34Andrew D. Huberman?

  It makes me well up, you know, not out of sadness. It's like I can feel the, the love of the relationship.

• 2:02:39Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 2:02:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  You know, I had to ask and, and on my list, and I'm going to ask, is this the right time? I believe, um, so as Costello got to 11 years old, it's pretty old for a bulldog.

• 2:02:52Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 2:02:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  He had a, some sort of spinal stroke. He couldn't walk, he was falling over. I was like distraught, how can I get this fixed? And at some point I realized, you know, when people say like, they'll let you know.

• 2:03:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:03:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  I had a feeling and then a thought, and it went something like this. I made a contract with him to take care of him.

• 2:03:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:03:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  And in the contract of being a really good dog owner, but like mostly in the contract of the relationship, I owed him a, a peaceful exit. Hated going to the vet, so I got someone to come to the house and do this thing. Most people, they hate the concept of death, especially in family members or a dog. And I think it would have been useful to me to understand the day I got him, that someday this is going to end.

• 2:03:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:03:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I think like this thing about honoring death as a real thing is so important because that last two weeks was a real struggle between me and myself, my desire to just keep it going. And I realized I was being selfish. It was about me. And of course I, I gave him the best passage I could. And people in my life who knew me and knew my relationship to him, they said, I, I actually can't believe you did it. I'm surprised you were able to. But the moment I realized like this is the final line in being, in the contract of being a really good dog owner, I was like, oh, of course I have to do this.

• 2:04:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  So no one likes this topic, but given where you're from, what is your relationship to the concept of death as it relates to, to dogs? And the question is very specific here. Do people say they know, they'll let you know?

• 2:04:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  The question I want to know is, is it okay to show your dog sadness? Or does it make the dog that's dying more anxious?

• 2:04:41Speaker 00

  With my kids, because I have two kids and, you know, obviously we have a pack of dogs. They have experienced dogs passing. We always make a celebration. I always bring them to their favorite place. So I definitely bring more the energy of happiness. And I, I ask my kids, if you're going to cry or whatever, just do it away from them. Otherwise you hold them, right? So I don't, I want them to go back. That's why it's so good to think, to believe in God, because they're going back to the source. So they're way better with him than they were, you know, here. I did my homework right too also. So I feel really good that I gave the best life for that particular dog, right? And so when it's time to go, they tell you, yeah, they, they tell you, they can, you know, as many, many signs.

• 2:05:25Speaker 00

  But at the same time, as, you know, when it's the day, is everybody happy? Everybody's happy, we're going to, we're going to dance, we're going to celebrate, we're going to, you know, it's a ritual. You can make a sad ritual or you can make a happy ritual. You see, it's time for him to depart, it's time to go. So when I die, I want everybody to be happy. Okay, I don't want no sadness. I, listen, my life is beyond what I thought, right? So I, I give that same life to a dog, same. It's, I'm a very dedicated human. Seven days a week, uh, even if I don't feel good, it doesn't matter. I go and walk that pack. I'm very committed, right? It's all about honor, it's all about respect. It's, that's my way of showing my heart.

• 2:06:10Speaker 00

  And in my mind, I don't have one day that I, I did wrong by them. So when it's time for them to go, it's time for them to go, but we're going to make happy about it. Because they're going back to God. That's how I see it. And you know, as you, as you, as you're talking about, the spirit never dies. You know, spirit never dies. And it's an opening for me to help another soul and another soul. Because that's why, that's why I'm here, right? I'm here on earth to, my time can be used wisely to keep helping. And that's what I find, you know, my inspiration, motivation. That's it.

• 2:06:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Beautiful, not what I expected, and I'm so pleasantly surprised. I, uh, it challenges me to even say it because he's still so new. But when Strummer dies.

• 2:06:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  The last 24 hours of his life will be a celebration.

• 2:06:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:56Andrew D. Huberman?

  With him.

• 2:06:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, celebration.

• 2:06:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  All right.

• 2:06:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  All right.

• 2:06:59Speaker 00

  It's happy spirit, you know, sing, laugh, dance, you know, uh, just happiness. Because they, once you start going like this, they don't, they, they get worried, you know? And then the spirit lingers. You don't want it, you just want it to go, you know, and for them to give you direction, protection. This, you know, I have a big pack on heaven.

• 2:07:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  You definitely have a big pack waiting for you.

• 2:07:23Speaker 00

  When I go home, you know, I was going to have the, you know, how many dogs have I saved my life? So he is, yeah, I'm going home.

• 2:07:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it.

• 2:07:33Speaker 00

  You know, earth is a beautiful home, but it's temporary.

• 2:07:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, well, I believe this too.

• 2:07:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's temporary.

• 2:07:39Andrew D. Huberman?

  I've talked a bit about my faith, now's not the time, but I'm, you know, my audience knows, I'm very, very much in, in agreement that, you know, this is, this is an amazing phase of us.

• 2:07:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  But it's not the only phase. And so if people are feeling sad, like, you know, the number of people I know who turn to their dog for emotional support.

• 2:07:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:07:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Around a loss of a loved one or a breakup or loss of a judge, the world, whatever.

• 2:08:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:08:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  What is your stance on that?

• 2:08:07Speaker 00

  It's bad because they're passing that energy. The dog doesn't know what happened. But I mean, obviously, they're gonna help you absorb the energy, but after you did that, just take him to the beach so you can let go to the energy. Same thing when you bring a dog to a hospital, right? And the therapy dogs, they go to hospitals, you know, kids with cancer, da, da, da, da, da. Depressed people, blah, blah, blah. That dog absorbs that energy. Okay, just like you will and absorb people's energy. Your job is to go and let it go. So every time you give bad energy, uh, uh, you know, help people or help dogs to get rid of that energy that is not healthy for them. Yeah, utilize it, you know, is available. But again, you can also go and take a cold plunge before you hug the dog.

• 2:08:50Speaker 00

  And that way you kill that energy, you know, kill bad energy, just kill it. And only give good energy to your family. Give good energy to your home. It's discipline. It's easier to just to go and throw that negative energy that you just grabbed. It's easier, but then you spread the whole thing everywhere.

• 2:09:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, man, I saw in so many laboratories where the, the boss, you know, brilliant scientists, I think of one in particular, and they would do this like what I would call trickle down anxiety. They'd be stressed and they'd walk through the lab stressing out. Graduate school is already hard.

• 2:09:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  Especially in the, if I may, in the sciences.

• 2:09:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:24Andrew D. Huberman?

  Very, very hard, very competitive. Postdoc is even more uncertain. Like you don't, you don't get a degree at the end. You're investing five years of your life. You know, and to walk around, the boss, walking around like making people anxious.

• 2:09:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:37Andrew D. Huberman?

  Terrible. The other thing that was terrible was walking around making people feel overly confident. People would do that too. So everything you're saying, it's like you could see it in these very hierarchical human relationships. But I think with dogs, we, we're so, I'm just gonna say it. I feel like we are so selfish. As a species, like that these animals are here for us and just for us to give me love when I get home, to console me when I'm sad, to give me all the things I want.

• 2:10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:04Andrew D. Huberman?

  That I would be blind to the, the basic needs of that animal. It's, it really is. It's as selfish, in my opinion, as saying, oh, these are animals that we work on, that just serve our purposes to advance our careers or scientific understanding. And again, there's a place for that, but we have to be incredibly nuanced about where that's appropriate and where it's inappropriate. It's just a selfishness.

• 2:10:26Speaker 00

  The selfish part and the unselfish part. So what I'm saying is don't forget, you know, to be at service before somebody is at service to you. Right? So the spirit instinct is love to be at service. And then the, the, the love and, and the mind loves to be served.

• 2:10:43Speaker 00

  So this is your selfish part of it, and this is your unselfish part of it. You see it? So you're here to serve God and you're here to serve earth. All right, so you don't forget that, right? To be at service, because they skip it. So once you, once you go directly to the heart and the mind, this is what I want. I want my dog to love me, da, da, da. Okay, fine, you just skip spirit and instinct. Right? Because the spirit will never bring bad energy to the heart. And instinct will never bring bad energy to the mind. You see? So, so if you remember that you are four things, and, and this is what you want to give to your dog, to yourself, to your house, to your family,

• 2:11:24Speaker 00

  and then you're gonna be focusing on, on, on making sure that you snap out of it, whatever, like you do on yourself, to snap out of it, right? And then, and then you go bring, you know, patience, calmness, confidence, love. Then you go hug the dog. So you also have to learn to snap yourself out of it from whatever energy you went and attracted. It's like stepping on poop. You gotta remove your, your shoe before you walk into the house. Otherwise you bring that scent. So energy is the same way. It's like poop on your feet. Bad energy is the same. You're gonna spread all over the house.

• 2:11:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Absolutely.

• 2:11:59Speaker 00

  Your plants are gonna die, you know, your dogs are gonna be like, okay, this energy is, is not good. So we, right? And then your family will, will get it. So you're entering, you're gonna enter into this dark energy.

• 2:12:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  These days on social media, there's so much, I'm realizing about the low level stuff, like you should never hug a dog. You should hug a dog. You should never pick up your dog off the ground.

• 2:12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:26Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's okay to pick up. Your dog should never be in your bed.

• 2:12:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:29Andrew D. Huberman?

  Your dog should be in your bed. You see all these contradictions. You see the same thing in the health space.

• 2:12:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Like you should cold plunge, you shouldn't cold plunge, you should sauna, you should like, it, it, and it comes down to a basic fact, which is that it's not about the practice. It's the, it's the principle behind it, the spirit behind it, the energy behind it. So I was tempted to ask you like, is it bad to pick up the dog? Actually, Strummer loves being held. Costello hated it.

• 2:12:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  Strummer, he's hap, he's basically happiest just being carried around. But I know you don't, I don't carry around too much, but it's funny, he just drapes.

• 2:13:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:13:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  He's so happy that way. He wishes he could go through the world that way, frankly. It's not about carry or no carry.

• 2:13:07Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:13:07Andrew D. Huberman?

  It's about what is your energy? Why are you doing this? Is it for you? Is it for them? What's, okay.

• 2:13:14Speaker 00

  And if the dog feels, because you know, you can ask a groomer or a vet, they have to carry that dog, but they can't carry a five flight avoidance.

• 2:13:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 2:13:23Speaker 00

  They can only carry a happy-go-lucky one or a calm-sur surrendered one. Those are, so it's nothing wrong hugging a dog. It's nothing wrong putting a dog on the bed. It's nothing wrong. It's, it's what state of mind the dog was in when you did this is more important. Right? Because what about if a dog is in a, is in a flight state and you wanna carry him? He's gonna feel trapped, and then the dog is gonna bite, or he's gonna pee, or he's gonna scream. Right? So you could have prevented that just by not focusing on what you wanted to do. Is, is the dog that you want to do that in a calm-sur surrendered state? Right? Can the dogs stay on the bed? There's nothing wrong, you know, sharing your house with the dog. It's, think about invading versus inviting. Okay, so when the dog goes on his own, he's invite, invading.

• 2:14:08Speaker 00

  When the dog is waiting, then you tell him to come over and you tell him where to go. That's being invited. So that mind is gonna be calm-sur surrendered. The other one is gonna get territorial. You know how many times I have rehabilitated dogs who claim people's bed? Where the husband can't come near.

• 2:14:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 2:14:26Speaker 00

  The bed because the wife and the dog were already there. I, I done a rehabilitation where the husband slipped in the living room for three years because she wanted the dogs to stay in the bed. And when every time the, the guy came into the, into the bedroom,

• 2:14:43Speaker 00

  the dogs will after him.

• 2:14:44Andrew D. Huberman?

  I'm sure everyone is thinking, what did he do wrong? This is, you know, we're living in this time now where there's this projection of like, well, he must have done something wrong. I don't, I can also imagine the situation you just described where no one did anything wrong except give the dog too much power.

• 2:14:59Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 2:14:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  That there's actually, let's assume there's no problem between the couple.

• 2:15:02Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 2:15:02Andrew D. Huberman?

  She would like the husband in the bed, perhaps, but, but the dog is somehow picking up on something.

• 2:15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, no, she said it clearly to me, I just don't want him on the bed.

• 2:15:12Andrew D. Huberman?

  The husband? Okay, so there, the dog is basically taking advantage of the old one's lot.

• 2:15:17Speaker 00

  Well, listen, let's say you guys wanna spend 20 minutes on the bed, let me show you how to do it. And so that's what I, I thought the dog's just to wait.

• 2:15:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 2:15:25Speaker 00

  Right? But she needed to make sure that, uh, she agrees with agreement, commitment, follow through. Nothing can happen without agreement. So she needs to be in a hundred percent agreement, otherwise the dog will not do it.

• 2:15:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  They really can sense.

• 2:15:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  Any kind of small fraction of.

• 2:15:42Speaker 00

  Your energy goes down, they're gonna take over. Your energy goes up, they're gonna move away. Right? Your energy have to be bigger for you to create the follow. If your energy goes down, you follow them.

• 2:15:54Speaker 00

  Simple as that. Simple as that. You just, you just have to remember energy, right? And then if you want to lead, this is the animals. You can lead humans lying to them all day long, but with animals you can't. You have to bring the perfect energy, the right energy, and energy that belongs to all of us, right? Your patient energy, your calm energy, your confident energy, your love energy. We all have that inside of us, right? God gave us all the same thing. That's up to you. Do you go from the back of the pack to the front of the pack? That's up to you, right? But you have patience, calmness, confidence, love, joy, because that's how you're going to deal with life.

• 2:16:34Speaker 00

  Right? So with animals, it's a perfect way to maintain this, you know, within yourself. Right? It's like a gym, going to the gym every day, right? But it's just the gym, it's mother nature, the beach, the streets, whatever. You're just walking around with dogs in a natural, simple, profound way. And that's it. And then you go to work. So imagine if people develop this beautiful habit. Okay, I'm gonna do what Caesar says, you know, silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy for 30, 40 minutes. And then I'm going to feel the silence, the calmness, then I go to work.

• 2:17:09Speaker 00

  Right? And when I come back, not touching, not touching my contacts, and then my dog back. And then I can do the greeting. Then I go for another walk, right? And then you can do the play and explore.

• 2:17:20Speaker 00

  No bad behavior would happen in your house with that simple formula.

• 2:17:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it. I hope that people will start to think about their dog and getting a dog as more of a gym as opposed to, I'm a, we're gonna get a fur baby. I have a friend, uh, have to be very careful here. This is truly not about my household, but I have a friend, she's married, they're going through some struggles. They have two kids and she told me the other day, they never had a dog. She's gonna get two husky puppies. And I said, do me a favor, just get one.

• 2:17:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:54Andrew D. Huberman?

  In six months, if you, but they want each other, this and that. And the kids are young, there's no way. And I, and I know the struggles that they're having and it's, they're, they're both overworked, they're under-resourced. So this is, uh, and they love each other very much, but this is like a really hard situation.

• 2:18:08Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:18:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  And I'm thinking to myself, I wanna be supportive. And I said, do not get a puppy now. And if you do, do not get two puppies. This is like insanity. Like you, like you wanna, like it could break your family. Or, and she said, but I promised the kids.

• 2:18:23Speaker 00

  It'll break your heart because you have to get rid of the dogs.

• 2:18:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  So this, she said, my, it was a story, it's very interesting. She said, when I was growing up, my parents would make these promises and they wouldn't do it. And I told, and it broke my heart and I told my kids they could each get one. And I said, I said, well, you have no idea the kind of heartbreak that they're going to experience when you have to give them both back. Yeah. Because one is biting the kid or one is, you know, like, and she was like, oh, I wouldn't want that. And I was thinking to myself, and you're already under-resourced.

• 2:18:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  I share this because I'm realizing throughout today's conversation, our concept of dogs and what they owe us is completely backwards. She's a very good person.

• 2:18:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:59Andrew D. Huberman?

  I won't state her profession for states of, but she's in a, a, a profession of intense service all day long. And has, I've known her for more than two decades. But the concept is these puppies are gonna come here and rescue us.

• 2:19:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:19:13Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is like fulfill or fulfill.

• 2:19:15Speaker 00

  The dream that I had.

• 2:19:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:17Speaker 00

  Right? Uh, with prior to, you know, with my parents.

• 2:19:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  More love, just more love can't be bad. More love can't be bad.

• 2:19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they're huskies, right?

• 2:19:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  And they're.

• 2:19:25Speaker 00

  So this is a breed that love to migrate longer than any other breed in the world. Right? So walking is one thing, migration is another.

• 2:19:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is why I got a bulldog.

• 2:19:34Speaker 00

  You see.

• 2:19:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is why I got a bulldog breed. I actually didn't get a purebred bulldog because I, they have issues.

• 2:19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, they have issues.

• 2:19:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  But yeah, a dog that needs to migrate, how much walking do they need per day?

• 2:19:44Speaker 00

  Hours and especially a pack. So the bigger the pack, the longer the walk.

• 2:19:48Andrew D. Huberman?

  I know. They, they both work such crazy hours.

• 2:19:51Speaker 00

  Also let her know, hey, begin with fostering. So that way they get to know themselves as a family. Is everybody in agreement? Does everybody understand what the rules, boundaries, limitations are? Does everybody understand what the responsibilities are? Can, can we all see our good habits and our bad habits? You know, do we all follow through? So with a foster dog, you're not adopting it. You're just temporary keeping him in the house. So the dog gets, you know, a, a home and, and a family. It doesn't necessarily have to stay in the house, but the human gets to learn about themselves before they enter into the purchase or the adoption. Right? So to have two puppies, huskies, you gotta have to purchase them. Right?

• 2:20:33Speaker 00

  And so she's gonna go into make a purchase and then eventually you realize we were not ready as a family. In my mind, I was ready, but in the whole pack, we're not ready. Right? And, and the puppyhood is, is from birth to eight months. So in a matter of six months, you have a dog that is this big, who's an adolescent now. Right? Now you gotta think about spay and neuter. Cause if you don't, then you deal with the, the, uh, you know, the hormones. And then they can start fighting with each other.

• 2:21:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  What's your take on spay and neuter?

• 2:21:07Speaker 00

  Well, in America it's necessary because dogs are not gonna mate. And so, uh, and they spend a lot of time indoor.

• 2:21:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  So I neutered Costello.

• 2:21:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:21:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Uh, I put him on testosterone therapy his final two years.

• 2:21:25Andrew D. Huberman?

  Vets that I knew said, we would love to be able to do that more, but there are reasons we don't. With, uh, Strummer, I thought, keep him intact.

• 2:21:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:21:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Then people say, oh, but then they're gonna mate with all the dogs in the neighborhood. You can also give a dog a vasectomy. This is very easy procedure. It's funny, we don't do that. I learned that in Australia, it's illegal to not neuter your dog. In Scandinavia, it's illegal to neuter your dog.

• 2:21:48Speaker 00

  Yes, right.

• 2:21:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  What in the world is best?

• 2:21:50Speaker 00

  Well, it depends on the, on the, on the place, right? Cause in America, without a doubt, uh, since the dogs don't go out as often, they're, they're relied on the human. Dogs in a tougher country, they're not neutered. But they're not looking for trouble. They're not, you know, they're, they mate when the female gets in heat. Otherwise they're busy looking for food and water. So, you know, as long as you use your energy for, uh, to, for survival purposes, you're not gonna develop frustration. So, so what happens, you know, when a dog is intact and they don't get to walk enough and they don't get to be challenged enough. And then it all goes into the rouse. And they're, the whole day, uh, they're excited. And if people go, oh, baby, the thing comes out.

• 2:22:33Speaker 00

  Right? And then, and then the dog gets excited. How many, I don't know if you've ever seen it, but I've seen it a lot. Dogs humping their owners or those humping, uh, uh, furniture in the house.

• 2:22:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, Costello tried to hunt me once.

• 2:22:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:22:46Andrew D. Huberman?

  It never happened again. I just made it, I just made it very clear that was not okay. And I, I used isolation. I just put him back in the thing. I left, came back.

• 2:22:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:22:57Andrew D. Huberman?

  I sent him the message mentally, energetically, that's never happening again. It was very stern.

• 2:23:04Speaker 00

  Well, it has to be clear. They want, so that happens and they want, but a lot of times people go,

• 2:23:11Speaker 00

  oh, no, no, no. They're, so they more celebrate that. Right? And so they end up in a celebration and, and it end up funny, uh, but the dog end up becoming more and more aroused about the humans. So now he's mounting, which as you know, is, is a sexual and his dominance, you know, behavior towards the human. So, in America, definitely a dog needs to, uh, be neutered more, more often. Plus we have an overpopulation. You know, millions of dogs die every year, uh, because there's an overpopulation problem. And that's taxpayer money who pays for, for the killing of dogs. So it's important that we regulate that through, that's the only way you can regulate that.

• 2:23:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  I see these crazy things on Instagram. Someone says, when you pet your dog, it should be slow. No, when you pet your dog, you should, I'm guessing, doesn't matter, it's the energy behind it.

• 2:24:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:01Andrew D. Huberman?

  I mean, you obviously don't wanna push against the fur, but somebody was saying, you know, all, all people are like petting their dog too fast. They don't like that. Is this just people making stuff up?

• 2:24:10Speaker 00

  Look, if a dog is doing agility and a dog is like excited because he's doing agility, pet him hard, pet him fast. Cause you want him like that. But if you want the dog to be in a restaurant, pet himself. So it's depending what you want the mind to feel. You see what I mean? You don't want to pet fast in a restaurant, you know, and slow and agility. So it's, it's, it's, it's not the action, it's what are you petting?

• 2:24:35Andrew D. Huberman?

  Makes total sense. Makes total sense. I mean, a, a soft, slow, calm, you know, calm.

• 2:24:39Speaker 00

  Restaurant means calm. Agility means go for it. Yeah, go for it, right? It's like what FIFA is doing right now. All the, you know, everybody's excited. Nobody's like, you see this?

• 2:24:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  With, um, barking, uh, I learned from your book, like if Costello, or when he was a puppy, he, he could let it out.

• 2:24:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:00Andrew D. Huberman?

  And the temptation is to say, no, but why would you shout back to a dog that's vocalizing? So I would just walk away. And then when he was quiet, I'd come back.

• 2:25:11Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 2:25:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  And then pretty soon he realized, nobody wants to be around a barking dog. And somehow he knew instinctually that if there was a threat or someone, you know, he sensed a threat, a bark, he only would bark once. He had this, I mean, he had this like, I mean, man, his, he was a beautiful specimen, I have to say. He was just so beautiful. But his barks were like a bass drum. But it was one. And then we just, but he would never just sit there and bark. I think a lot of people, their dog barks and they talk to their dog. So presumably,

• 2:25:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:25:43Andrew D. Huberman?

  The dog is barking because that's what gets them some sort of feedback attention.

• 2:25:47Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. Or, or the dog is also his only way to drain energy. Right? Like when my dog obsessively bark, how often do you walk? Uh, once a week, twice a week or whatever. So, so the barking becomes a way of draining energy. Or like destroying your house, you know, uh, destructive behavior. Why would a dog destroy where he sleep? Well, because he doesn't do much with his body and his mind. So he has to drain that energy. And that's what we call destructive behavior. But people don't understand that we are not, we're in a way practicing destructive behavior by not doing what we're supposed to be doing, which is walking a dog every single day. At the moment they wake up in the morning, they stretch. The second thing they wanna do is walk.

• 2:26:27Andrew D. Huberman?

  Should you wait for your dog to get up? What if you have to go to work? Should you force your dog to wake up and walk?

• 2:26:32Speaker 00

  I certainly would. They're, they're daytime animals. So the biology is definitely, uh, as soon as the sun comes out, they, they should go. You know, they should go.

• 2:26:40Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is what we do with Strummer, even though bulldog, I mean, they'll sleep till 10 AM, but, um, we've, we have to work. So we take them out.

• 2:26:49Speaker 00

  Take care of it. It's easier. It's actually better, right? Cause it's like, I gotta, but then you drain the energy quicker. Yeah. It's way better. Cause you want them to stay waiting for you in a resting state. So it's five body motions the animals do. They stretch as soon as they wake up, right? Walk, run, rest, sleep. So a lot of times when you don't walk the dog or run the dog and you want the dog to wait for you, he can't go into a resting state. You see it? So it's very important that we follow the, the five body motions. Cause every single animal, as soon as they wake up, they stretch. The bird flies, right? And the, the dog walks and, and, and the rest of the animals, the, the water animals, they swim. Right?

• 2:27:28Speaker 00

  So there is a, um, a, a formula that they have. So we want them to wait for us. We have to leave them in a resting state. And they just, that's the meaning of waiting state. That's it. But, but they can't wait or rest if the body and the mind has not been drained. And I, another, another reason why the walk is so important. Cause the walk is, is the only activity from play and explore that gives them calm surrender. Play and explore gives them an excited energy.

• 2:27:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Do you recommend walking them on the same path, novel path, um, giving them new?

• 2:28:03Speaker 00

  In the beginning, yes. Then the, the, the same path is important. They create, you know, trust to the environment. But once they, they, they know it very well, you have to change it. Yeah. And, and you don't have to change like even going on a different direction. You can just come outside and put food in the floor and tempt the dog to want to smell and correct him. So that creates a challenge. You see it? So you learn to ignore food in the floor. And you see it? So you start creating your own universal studios. So your whole house or your whole environment becomes your own dog psychology center. Where you're challenging your dog, you know, to, uh, to not get bored. Cause they learn a pattern really fast. And once they learn it, there is no growth. So then, then the mind gets also frustrated, bored or confused because there's no growth.

• 2:28:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  I love it. I trained Strummer to run on the treadmill.

• 2:28:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:52Andrew D. Huberman?

  For little rewards here and there, intermittent reinforcement. And he loves it. He runs now, he jumps on, he gets on that thing.

• 2:28:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Uh, it never occurred to me to do this, but I realized that we're in California, it doesn't rain too often. But even when it rains, I want to have something where I can

• 2:29:06Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 2:29:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Get his energy out. If it, there's fires again, I don't want to be outside. Anyway, um, so glad to hear that the treadmill is, is okay.

• 2:29:13Speaker 00

  You know, the first treadmill I saw, remember the show, The Jetsons?

• 2:29:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:17Speaker 00

  With Astro?

• 2:29:17Andrew D. Huberman?

  Jetson?

• 2:29:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:29:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:19Speaker 00

  That was the first dog I ever seen on a treadmill and I was a kid. Then I come to America and I see a whole bunch of treadmills, you know, and in people's garage. And I say, did you ever put your dog on a treadmill? I said, no, can you put a dog on a treadmill? I learned that by watching The Jetsons.

• 2:29:33Andrew D. Huberman?

  Oh, very cool.

• 2:29:34Speaker 00

  Then I came and practiced it in America because people just had the treadmill, but they were not using it.

• 2:29:38Andrew D. Huberman?

  Wow.

• 2:29:39Speaker 00

  You know, so that's when I started putting dogs on a treadmill, bah, bah, bah. And people were just fascinated, but I said, listen, this is not for you to stay lazy.

• 2:29:47Andrew D. Huberman?

  Right.

• 2:29:47Speaker 00

  This is just for emergencies.

• 2:29:49Andrew D. Huberman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:29:50Speaker 00

  Okay. And for you to challenge the mind and, and, and, you know, and that's it. But it's not, it's not so you don't walk.

• 2:29:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, I do a walk with him, then bring him back. And then if he still has a lot of energy and I have to go, I get him going fast on an incline.

• 2:30:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:30:05Andrew D. Huberman?

  Get him right to his threshold and then play with it a little bit.

• 2:30:08Speaker 00

  That's correct.

• 2:30:08Andrew D. Huberman?

  Done. Like we, I've been trying to share this thing with him, like we, this is our thing. And now he, he loves the treadmill. He, we dying to get on the treadmill.

• 2:30:16Speaker 00

  So people become more like personal trainers, they would challenge the dogs a lot more like a personal trainer.

• 2:30:20Andrew D. Huberman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:30:21Speaker 00

  You see it? So they will be able to, you know, challenge the mind and challenge the body, challenge the mind, challenge the body. It's a personal trainer, right? And but, but people don't do it, you know, they don't do this other, uh, titles, right? I just want to be a dog lover or the mom of this dog or the father of this dog. Yeah, you can also be a coach. You can also be a religious coach. You know what I mean? Or a, a spiritual coach, uh, intellectual coach. I mean, don't forget that it's four worlds. It's not just the emotional world and that's the only one you want to practice because that's the easiest one.

• 2:30:53Andrew D. Huberman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:30:54Speaker 00

  Right? To love a dog is so easy, you know, to challenge him, you know, spiritually and instinctually and intellectually. That's, it requires creativity.

• 2:31:03Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, that's a great relationship.

• 2:31:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's awesome, really. It's good for you.

• 2:31:06Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:07Speaker 00

  Because if a dog is doing great, that means you did great. So it's a reflection of you, right? The dog is a reflection of you, your energy, your philosophy, your actions. So every time you work out with a dog, you're working out with yourself. It's just in a natural, simple, profound way. That's it, you know, which is about trust, respect, love, safe, peace, love, body, mind, heart. Just simple stuff, right? And that creates the off-leash. That, that is, you know, the ultimate we, we should all accomplish. And you shouldn't pay for it, right? I'm not trying to get my, you know, colleagues, the dog trainers, uh, not to get jobs. But it's, it's, uh, it's kind of silly that you hire somebody to teach your dog off-leash.

• 2:31:49Speaker 00

  You earned that. That's something we have to earn. It's good for us to earn, you know, that, that trust, that respect, that love. It's good. It's, it's a good exercise. It's a good workout. That means you use your spirit, your instinct, your heart and your mind every single day of life. That's why that dog behaves that way. You see it? They keep you on track just to live a natural, simple, profound life. And when you're having a hard time in life, that's where you want to go. To your natural, simple, profound, you know, never let this one go. So to have a good relationship with a dog is automatically let you have a good relationship with God. They're together. We're the only one that separates them. We're the only one that separates everything to create chaos.

• 2:32:30Andrew D. Huberman?

  We make a lot of things up. What I'm hearing today over and over is that if you obey the spirit, you obey the instincts. Ours and these animals, dogs in this case. And you put that first, then all the other stuff about pet, not pet, pet, not the pet. Like all the other stuff falls into place, but it's a moment to moment thing. It's a daily thing. There isn't a, well, I love my dog. It loves me. That, that's a, that's a story that's partially true, but there's actually, if I editorialize a little bit, there's, there's actually a fair amount of abuse of the animal in that situation. It's very self-serving. There's abuse of the animal.

• 2:33:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:11Andrew D. Huberman?

  But when we align all those things and we start from spirit.

• 2:33:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:15Andrew D. Huberman?

  It all kind of falls into place.

• 2:33:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:18Andrew D. Huberman?

  But we have to be vigilant and we have to basically train ourselves.

• 2:33:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:22Andrew D. Huberman?

  This is all about training ourselves.

• 2:33:23Speaker 00

  That's why I train humans, rehabilitate dogs. That's, that's my job. I train humans, rehabilitate dogs. You don't have to have a dog to talk to me. Because, you know, uh, learning how to be with a dog is learning how to be in life, period.

• 2:33:36Andrew D. Huberman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:33:36Speaker 00

  Right? It's good for you to be a pack member, a good pack member at home. You need to know what is your position and just be contribute to the family, right? And bring good energy, good philosophy, good action, even if you're in the back of the pack or the middle of the pack or the front of the pack. It's not only the front of the pack, it has to have good energy. It's because he's in that position, he has to be the fittest, right? Fittest not only physically, but spiritually, instinctually, emotionally and mentally. You know, with the body to, to take care of all those four energies, right? So otherwise it doesn't matter what position, uh, you are in the pack. Bring good energy, good philosophy, good actions, right? And one way that you can achieve this every single day is having a great relationship with a dog.

• 2:34:21Speaker 00

  It just makes you a good human.

• 2:34:25Speaker 00

  Everybody wins that way. It's not about training the dog. It's about training the human to be a good human, right? And then that human is going to have good everything because that's, that's what his energy and philosophy and actions are all about. So imagine if the world is led by good humans.

• 2:34:42Andrew D. Huberman?

  Yeah, that's a beautiful image.

• 2:34:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:34:45Andrew D. Huberman?

  Well, Caesar, I, I'm immensely grateful for you coming here today.

• 2:34:50Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:34:51Andrew D. Huberman?

  You are incredibly knowledgeable, incredibly wise. Your, your energy is tangible from the moment somebody meets you. It's a real thing. I can say that, uh, having experienced it in the room. I'm sure people listening are hearing it and feeling it as well. You also have a, an incredible relationship to the, the spiritual of animals and humans and, and a real, what I hear as a wish for humanity and for animals. And, uh, your relationship to the things that are timeless.

• 2:35:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35:21Andrew D. Huberman?

  The past, the present, what happens next, it's, it's really, uh, incredible. I said it before, I'll say it again, three different ways for the multi-generational purpose of it. You're the man, you're also incredibly wise and you're a virtuoso of bringing together information in practical ways that people can not just learn how to take care of their dog and themselves better, but as you pointed out, be a better human. So you're a special one. Thank you so much.

• 2:35:48Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:35:50Andrew D. Huberman?

  Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Caesar Milan. To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note caption. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments.

• 2:36:32Andrew D. Huberman?

  For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

• 2:37:16Andrew D. Huberman?

  So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost.

• 2:37:58Andrew D. Huberman?

  You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Caesar Milan. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

• 2:38:24Speaker 02

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