501: Bullets To Burning Buildings. With Army Combat Medic Rob Black

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Frontline Army medic Rob Black recounts his time with the elite Brigade Recon Troop in Ramadi, fighting alongside Navy SEALs in one of Iraq’s most dangerous cities—and how those experiences shaped his life after war. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 501 with Kerry Helton and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Kerry. Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  Once we arrived at Camp Ramadi in June, everyone could tell we were not in the north anymore. Mortar attacks occurred daily and we were located right against the enemy-held parts of the city. I said that correctly. The enemy controlled over 75% of the city, from government buildings to hospitals and neighborhoods. However, we held the edge of the east and the west sides of town. We had a transition of authority scheduled around June 2006 from their brigade to ours. We would officially assume control of the operation and they would go home. The plan was set. On the night of the turnover of authority, our brigade would attack the city.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  We would simply push from east and west and meet in the middle, no matter how long that took. Our unit was again attached to another battalion and we were still serving conventional roles. But as a bonus, we would be in a close relationship with SEAL Team 3 Task Unit Bruiser and began planning for our small kill team operations. We were a specialized unit within our brigade. If there was something another unit couldn't do, an area they wouldn't go in, or a sniper they couldn't kill, they called us. We were embedded with the Asymmetric Warfare Group personnel, who helped us develop small kill team tactics, sensitive site exploitation procedures, and mission analysis techniques.

• 1:35Jocko Willink?

  We partnered with the Navy SEAL Team Task Unit Bruiser and built lifelong friendships with them as we fought against the enemy.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is a little excerpt from a book called Chop That Shit Up, which is by retired Command Sergeant Major Dan Pinion. And Dan was the first sergeant of the Brigade Recon Troop in Ramadi. Task Unit Bruiser, we worked alongside them a ton. And they were a small group of well-trained, well-led soldiers. And they were moved around the battlefield from hotspot to hotspot, wherever the fighting was most intense. Whoever needed support, they were sent. And because of this... This troop, the recon brigade recon troop suffered the highest casualties of any company sized

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  unit in Ramadi. And we covered some of this and we reviewed the book, chopped that shit up with Dan Pinion himself on podcast 482. But before we hit record on that, Dan had brought one of his guys down, one of his buddies and had a chance to talk briefly with Rob Black, who was Dan's combat medic in Ramadi, who did one tour, one tour in the army. And that one tour put him on the ground in Ramadi, in that, in that brigade recon troop. And he got out of the army. He's now a firefighter. He's a paramedic out here in California. And meeting Rob, I asked him if he

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  wanted to come and share his experiences in the army on a podcast. He was a young frontline medic, first tour in Iraq. And he saw intense combat on a day to day basis in the worst parts of the city against a determined enemy. And thankfully, Rob agreed to come on and talk about his experiences before, during, and after his time at war, his successes, and his struggles, and how he got through them. Rob, thanks for joining us, man. Appreciate it.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Hello. Wow. What an intro. Good lord.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  Got the day off from firefighting, huh?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  Right on, man.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Luckily on vacation this week.

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's, that's a good deal. Firefighting is a kind of cool when it comes to that, right?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  Is it like that across the whole country? I know in California, it's like you work 24 hours, then you get three days off, then you work 24 hours, then you get three, they get time off?

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Yes. So.

• 4:04Jocko Willink?

  Does everybody do it that way?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  No. So there's different like schedules and shift patterns. The department I work for, we're currently on an 11 day work period. It's about to go to a possibly 10 day work period, and it's kind of funky. So we used to do 72 hour shifts. So it used to be three days on, four days off. And with our union, our collective bargaining, it's gotten cut down significantly because like the mental health issues, that's been at the forefront.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  Wait, you do 72 hours straight?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yes. So crazy, huh?

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  So it's kind of a schedule that was, it's been around since like the 1970s. So now with like modernization, population growth, call volume. They take into account all that data and everything and they're like, okay, that's like kind of way too long.

• 4:47Jocko Willink?

  So. Yeah, cuz you don't get to necessarily sleep, right?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, depending on where you work, like I work primarily in the city of Moreno Valley. So it's, it's a pretty large city. Uh, I love it there. I've been there since 2014 and uh, was a firefighter there, paramedic there. And now I'm an engineer there. I was fortunate enough to go back there. But yeah, three days long, it, it can be rough at times. Like you really have to like truly depend on each other, especially when it's like big incident happens, just endless calls. But like, that's what's so fun about it is just it's never ending. And that's what I love about the job, like in its totality is that you never go into work and it's the same thing. Like you could have a plan, like last shift we were doing, like we had to redo the stickers on the ladders. And then you go into work and then all of a sudden the tones go off, then you're on a rolled over car on the freeway. Something like that.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  I, I love it. It's the best job in the world cuz it's never the same thing. Cuz I don't know what I'd do at a desk. It's.

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  So yeah, but the schedule patterns do change depending on department, uh, what their call volume is. And it's crazy that like 65% of the nation is volunteer firefighters too. So in California, we're paid, uh, because we live in Southern California, like obviously like a geographical paradise, right? But the Great Basin causes a lot of these like horrific winds that just drive the, the fire season crazy. Cuz it causes those Santa Anas with the wind pressure changes and we just get those volatile winds. We just happen to live in that area of the country where wildfires run crazy.

• 6:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we do.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  It, but where else would you rather live though?

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  Nowhere.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Cuz you can go to the mountains, the beach, everywhere. I love it down here.

• 6:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, California's epic. Uh, well, we'll get into some of that firefighting stuff, but let's get a little bit. I wanna, I wanna just get a little bit of background on you. So where, you grew up in California, right?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 6:42Jocko Willink?

  What was that all about?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Uh, I grew up in Buena Park, so right next to Knott's Berry Farm. That was actually like my first job.

• 6:50Jocko Willink?

  What'd you do there?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  I worked at Lucy's Lunchbox and then I worked at Edison in Soak City, like the water park during the summers and I did food service. This was my very first job. My mom took me over there, dropped me off. I did like a little interview. They're like, oh, you're hired.

• 7:06Jocko Willink?

  Were you like 16?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was 16. So it was, it was really fun. It was good for like the times. I met, I actually still talked to a couple of guys that I worked there with, but for a 16 year old, it was great. It was a lot of fun.

• 7:21Jocko Willink?

  And what'd your parents do?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  My mom's a bus driver. So she worked for OCTA for well over 30 years, I believe, like 33 years. So she like instilled in me like the work ethic. She'd get up three in the morning, go drive a route, come back, pick me up from school, always there. My dad worked for Food for Less as like a distribution. I believe he did like truck distribution and he bounced when I was eight. So one day he came in, said, I'm going to go live with Uncle Dan for a little bit. I didn't understand what that meant. I have a daughter who's seven now. So now it's starting to hit me like, holy crap. Like that was kind of like the age, like her birthday is in a couple of months. And my dad came in, said, I'm going to go live with Uncle Dan for a little bit. And I said, okay, well, I'll see you later. Cause I didn't understand what that meant as a

• 8:08Speaker 01

  child. And he left for a year, didn't call, didn't write, asked, I asked where he was on my birthday. My mom's like, I don't know, I haven't heard from him. And like, give all credit to my mom, like she kind of shielded us from all of that crap that we didn't need to know.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's legit.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Fighting that battle for like myself and my sister, like, cause I had no idea what was going on. I didn't understand like why my dad wasn't around. And little did I know like that caused, and we can get into it a little later on, like my dad leaving was like the seed that was planted that why the trauma that I went through in Iraq was like so horrific. Cause it like planted the seed of like abandonment. So like when my friends passed away in the military, like it just, it dug up all those old feelings from when I was a child and. Developing and it caused a lot of problems.

• 9:01Jocko Willink?

  But when you're eight, you're just like, oh, well, where was dad coming back tomorrow?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  I was playing Game Boy and I I knew my Uncle Dan, like just from holidays and stuff, but like, we just had this like very estranged relationship. Like I was growing up, he would, they went to, it was like a vicious court battle. I remember they wanted me and my sister to testify and my mom stopped it. She's like, absolutely not like. Uh, she was great. She protected us from everything. It like a great role model instilled the work ethic, but then he would get me and my sister every two weeks. Um, but like our just our relationship like wasn't there. Like I collected baseball cards and coins. When I was a kid, like I told you, I'm a dork, but I collected like baseball cards and he was still buying me that when I was like 14.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  I was like, Dad, I haven't, I'm not even into this anymore. It was just, he went from like being my father who was always around to like this just man that I now had to go with every two weeks. And it was just, I don't know, we kind of like grew apart.

• 10:04Jocko Willink?

  So what were you into in in like school and whatnot?

• 10:07Speaker 01

  So I was, uh, played football at halftime. I was in the band. So I went to school in La Palma, California. I went to Kennedy High School.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Uh, I was in the drum line.

• 10:18Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. But so it started in fourth grade. Uh, my mom dropped me off one day. I said, I wanted to play drums and just took off from there.

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  Did you play and did you play like rock and roll as well?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So I had a drum set. Uh, one of my best friends, Sean, he played guitar. So I'd go on like tabcrawler.com and kind of taught myself how to play guitar and bass. Was I any good? Probably not. Absolutely not. I could like fiddle around and do some power chords, but I was, I was super, super into band.

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  What kind of music did you like?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Uh, so me and my wife just went to Warped Tour this last weekend. So that, uh, that kind of like encompasses like the style of music that I really like, like Rise Against, Seosin, Pennywise. Um, we saw Amberlyn. They were incredible. Like it was great. State champs, like just pop punk. I think like a day to remember would be like my ideal band where I'm like the super hard breakdowns, like drop D guitar, like chugging breakdowns and then super poppy choruses. Like, I miss her. I love it.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  That's like the best style, but yeah, so I had a drum set, tried to start a couple of bands in high school. It's just trying to get a bunch of sixteen, seventeen year olds to like get on the same page.

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  Did you name any of the bands?

• 11:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:36Jocko Willink?

  Cause I had bands growing up and we would change our name like every couple of months.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  What'd you play?

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  I played bass, guitar and sang and, and none of those very well. In fact, for all of them, pretty bad. I could, you know, you can kind of get away with bass and probably one of the most controversial things that I've ever done

• 11:55Jocko Willink?

  online was I said that if you can play guitar, you can play bass, right? Yeah, I know. People freaked out then, but you, let me, let me, let me say this. If you can play guitar, you can play bass. I mean, you can play bass. You not be might, might not be able to play bass. Not like, you know, Geezer Butler or anything, but you can play bass. You can, you can play the bassline. You know, it's not that hard to play a, a simple bassline, which is what I did. I played a simple bassline and sang and we always, we, I always joke, we made more like band T-shirts, you know, because we'd always make T-shirts for our bands. We made more band T-shirts than we made songs, you know? I think I was just really stoked about the idea of just being in a band.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  So the big question is, did you pluck or did you use a pick?

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  Uh, both, both. Yeah. I, it was kind of, you know, it's, you, I mean, again, I just went and saw Black Sabbath. Final show ever.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 12:56Jocko Willink?

  And, um, you know, just watching Geezer Butler, who's always been, you know, Black Sabbath is my favorite band of all time. And watching Geezer Butler play, like you couldn't imagine doing what he's doing with a pick. It's just not happening, you know? He's just so freaking insane.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Be like Flea.

• 13:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, just.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  It's incredible what they do.

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  Um, but.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we never, you know.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  We're gonna have to hear some vocals.

• 13:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just basically just picture me, you know, yelling like an idiot. That's pretty much the vocals. You know, we had, so my buddy, he had the, cause we went to the studio one time. And we, we laid down a, we, we made a bunch of songs. And he, my buddy Elgin has the master, like reel to reel ta- tapes.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Like the four track?

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't know how many track. I think it might've been eight track, but it was a big reel to reel.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:50Jocko Willink?

  Thing.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Old school.

• 13:52Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, bro, we gotta get like the, we gotta get that. We gotta get the music off of it. Cause there was a couple.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  Quite frankly, there's a couple bangers on there. Couple bangers.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Couple head nodders.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  K dog, you'd be into it. Uh, there was a song that I wrote called Myself Strong, which was pretty legit. But, uh, so he brought them to like the most forensic sort of recovery place. And they're like, hey, there's, we can't, we can't get anything off these. So it's all lost. Yeah. Which is very sad.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Do you still remember the songs though? Like?

• 14:23Jocko Willink?

  I do. I can, yeah. Yeah. Between the two of us, we could probably put it, put them back together.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  So it's just you and your buddies jamming?

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, jamming.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Isn't that the best though?

• 14:32Jocko Willink?

  It is.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Like just hanging out and like bringing up like, hey, let's just do a couple of covers.

• 14:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Then it starts from there and then you try and make your own. You're like, wow, this is extremely hard.

• 14:41Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I'm the opposite. Well, so I still like, I still play like we, I have my buddy's, uh, garage. Uh, he has like a little mini studio in his garage. We call it the hole. And we still go in there and jam.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  And the funny thing is, is we, we joke, cause we don't play hardly any covers ever. And we just play thirty-three minute freaking, just crazy songs that we only play one time ever.

• 15:10Jocko Willink?

  So

• 15:10Speaker 01

  It's like the doors.

• 15:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like We're like a freaking crazy jam band.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:15Jocko Willink?

  But

• 15:15Speaker 01

  That's rad.

• 15:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's cool.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  That's a freaking huge stress reliever, too.

• 15:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Music is great.

• 15:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Just takes you into another place.

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  Do you still play drums?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  No. So like, I don't know, like, I just lost interest in it. One time, which is weird, right?

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  That is weird.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  So like, I was

• 15:31Jocko Willink?

  You need to get them back, dude.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  I know.

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  One of those digital kits that you can put on headphones?

• 15:34Speaker 01

  I know. I was, I was just talking to my wife about that. You could buy like the digital ones, do headphones, make hardly any noise.

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I was super into music and then I just kind of like lost it. I don't know.

• 15:46Jocko Willink?

  So at what point did you start thinking about joining the military?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  So I was in high school in 2003. I graduated in June of 2003. And that's when the invasion started. It was March of oh three, correct? When the invasion started? So my uncle was a paratrooper in Vietnam. He was in the one seventy third airborne. And so I was talking to him and it just came up. He's like, well, what are you gonna do? I was like, God, I don't know. Like, all my buddies are gonna go to Cypress College. Like, I think that's a good idea. He's like, I think it's your time.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh shit, like, you have a lot of problems, Uncle Jack. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if I want to be like you. Like, and he's, he's passed away now, but him and I have always had like a, we had like a very interesting relationship.

• 16:34Jocko Willink?

  Is this your, your mom's brother?

• 16:35Speaker 01

  My mom's brother. So she would see, she saw him coming home from Vietnam. And when I told her that, hey, I talked to Uncle Jack, he thinks it's a good idea for me to join. And this is when like you turn on the TV and it's like the invasion, the invaded, we are invading Iraq. Like, we've reached Baghdad, they're pulling out Saddam's, like, the, what was it, the big statue? Like, the big statue. She's like, no, go to college. I will pay whatever it costs for you to not go. And then for some reason, I was like, okay, now I'm going. I was like, I need to do this like for myself. And especially like I told some of my friends and like people in high school was like, hey, I'm thinking about joining.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  They laughed. They're like, you like, you're gonna go? I'm like, yeah, man, like, what does that mean? So it was kind of like, I don't know, it kind of like inspired me to like really want to do it. And I had an interest in medical. I knew I wanted to do something medical. I just didn't know what. Like I, I watched Saving Private Ryan and I really like connected with like Wade. Like he was the medic with the, with the Rangers that went through and he was, he always seemed like the calm, cool, collected, like took care of everyone. Like, hey, give us a fighting chance. Like, I love that scene. And so when I went around to the recruiters, uh, then I went to the Navy and they said, we can only promise you. And I'm not sure how the Navy works, but I believe it was a branch, like we could offer you like medical branch,

• 18:02Speaker 01

  but whatever is open at that time, then you'd be placed there. Like if they needed x-ray techs at the end of basic training, then you'd go do x-ray or dental or whatever. And then the army was like, no, you will be a medic. I was like, okay, perfect.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  So that was like my decision point and I made it, I made like a little, uh, on my cell phone, like a little, uh, thing like two weeks after I graduated high school, I'm going to make a decision. I'm going to either join or I'm going to sign up for college. And I made the decision, talked to my uncle one more time. Uh, he showed me all his medals and then I was kind of like, uh, this is going to sound really lame, but like my dad left and so I looked up to my uncle and he's like showing me his medals. And he was kind of like, he like impromptu father figure in a way. I guess striving for like his approval. And I was like, hey, man, like, will you go with me to the recruiter, talk to the recruiter? And he was like, I'd never seen him interact with me that way.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And I was like, holy shit. Like I think I'm getting this, this guy's approval. And I joined and then I went off to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for basic and then went to

• 19:10Jocko Willink?

  How long, how long did it take you to, once you so signed up, how long did you wait around for before you went?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  So I signed up in two weeks after high school. So probably early July and I left October ninth for basic training. Cause they had like the delayed entry program.

• 19:24Jocko Willink?

  Was your mom completely freaking out at this point?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Pissed, pissed. She's like, why are you doing like, you know, there's a war, right? And I'm like, yeah, but I'm probably not gonna go.

• 19:32Jocko Willink?

  And what'd you say you had for siblings?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Uh, one sister.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  Is she older or younger?

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Uh, older. She's, uh, her name's Mary. So she's five years older.

• 19:40Jocko Willink?

  And what was she saying?

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Uh, she didn't really.

• 19:43Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. She was kinda like, just supportive. She was very supportive.

• 19:47Jocko Willink?

  And so you go out to Fort Sill. How was boot camp? Were you, did you regret your decision or were you into it?

• 19:53Speaker 01

  That was my first time on a plane.

• 19:55Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  I did, I had like, that's, that was my life in Orange County. Like I worked at Knott's Berry Farm. Like my biggest concern was like, if the Froyo machine was broken, like I, I was like boys and Barry game, like just, it was, I mean, I was born on third base. I didn't hit a triple. Like I know that, you know what I mean? Like I, I was very, very fortunate. Like the life that,

• 20:18Speaker 01

  I had in like, in my upbringing, like I know that.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  And so that was my first time getting on a plane, ending, or geez. Going to Fort Sill and I remember it was just so flat, like, cause that's where the artillery is like, that's home of the artillery, like king of the battle. It's just flat, windy. And I do remember like, uh, the in processing, I was still like, oh, this is kinda weird. I'm not like sure what I'm doing. But the second day of like boot camp, we were like sitting down for the PT test and we all had our, like, we had these colored vests on. And I remember sitting down and you had to turn around so you couldn't watch the guy that was going.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  And you had to put your heads, your head between your knees. So you couldn't watch. So they didn't want anyone seen. And that's when I had that like thought of like, what the hell am I doing? Like, cause it is like five in the morning, like, and we're out here doing a PT test. Like I was just in band, like not that long ago, you know, like, I could get college paid for, and now like they're telling me I get a GI bill so I can go to college after, like this is kinda crappy, man. And then, uh, and then it breaks you down so much to realize that you're like nothing and you have to work as like a team to succeed because regardless of what people say group punishment works, like if you do not fall in line with what the platoon is doing, like you there,

• 21:45Speaker 01

  you're all going to pay for it and it's great. And then I went to, uh, medic school at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. That was 16 weeks.

• 21:53Jocko Willink?

  And how was that medic school? Now that you're a paramedic, when you look back, how, how, how good was your training? Like in the SEAL teams, the medics in the SEAL teams, they get freaking awesome training, like it's outstanding. I want to say it's a, it's over a year long.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 22:09Jocko Willink?

  And they get an incredible amount. They do like, they go into, uh, uh, like emergency rooms and work on people. They get live tissue training all the time. It's crazy, the amount of training they get. How was your training?

• 22:20Speaker 01

  So, uh, the first eight weeks is national registry EMT training. So you're an EMT basic. So you actually, the first eight weeks is like the in processing of EMT school. So you're getting up to a national standard of training. The second eight weeks is military training, like military medicine, like how to just all the tips and tricks. You're basically just a trauma machine. So to correlate that on the outside was kind of hard because usually, and for the most part in the military, everyone's healthy. Like nobody has like seizure problems, heart problems, nothing like that. So when I went to paramedic school, the trauma aspect was easy

• 23:01Speaker 01

  when I was doing that portion of it. But in paramedicine, that's so like very little of like what you need to know to be a paramedic. It's very sick geriatric patients with chest pain, diabetic seizures, all these, like all the pathophysiology, like that I had to learn all the cardiology, the pharmacology, like it was, it was all new. So. I do remember meeting up with the SEAL Team medics a couple of times. We just like looked at each other's aid bags. And I believe one dude was a sniper too. He's like, I'm the medic and the sniper.

• 23:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we actually, believe it or not, had a couple of guys that were medics and snipers.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Well, I remember rapping with him like during one of the briefings, because we went to your guys', one of your briefings, we stood on the outside. I was still blown away that you guys were like on a first name basis, because I was like, I don't even know why I'm in this room. For one, because we're doing outer court on for you guys, like for you guys to go and do the work, like we're just the, we're gonna hang out on the outside while you guys go take care of that. But we were all briefing in there and you guys are just calling each other by your first name, so like, calm, cool, collected, and like, it was just so like well orchestrated. It was like the Chick-fil-A drive-through. You guys are just like so smooth, like, and operationally sounded like, holy crap, like, I don't know, I was just blown away with like how, how smooth it went, like the briefing, down to like the entire operation.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Like, hearing the SEAL Teams on the radio, there was no inflection in the voice, it was calm, cool, collected. And I remember, like, I believe we talked about it before, like, hot Falcon. Like, there were three, like, IA injured. And the radio traffic was just like, hey, we have three injured, we're gonna exfil. And it's like, dude, these, these guys are machines.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, we had a good crew. And I'm thinking about the snipers, the sniper medics that you're talking about right now.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  It was, it was one guy that I talked, I believe he's like an Asian guy.

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, so that's Johnny Kim, you know, who's

• 24:56Speaker 01

  That's like the astronaut, right? So I saw that. I saw like a news article and I'm like, dude, I'm pretty sure I met that dude.

• 25:04Jocko Willink?

  You did.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Because we were, him and I were sitting, uh, we're outside just going over like our, the breakout session after the, uh, the, uh, brief. And I was like, hey, what do you carry in that thing? And he was showing me like his aid bag and just rapping with him and he's, and I looked at his weapon, I'm like, dude, that's a gnarly weapon. He's like, yeah, I'm a sniper too. I'm like, Yeah, and I heard like now he's a freaking astronaut like.

• 25:26Jocko Willink?

  And this is after he went, he's a doctor too. He went to Harvard Medical School afterwards. So yeah, that's Johnny Kim.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  One upper, huh?

• 25:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. He's, he's, he's an awesome guy. And actually, the other, the, one of the other snipers in that platoon was also a corpsman. It was Kevin Lays, Daubers is his nickname, but he was another medic sniper, which is definitely a weird.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  It's a little bit rare. You know, it doesn't happen a lot. The fact that we, first of all, we had 13 snipers in my task unit, which was a lot of that, that's normally like, maybe you'd have

• 26:01Jocko Willink?

  five or six maybe, but we had 13. It was again, like when you have corpsmen that are snipers, two of your medics are snipers. That's just.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 26:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just random.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  It's overkill.

• 26:11Jocko Willink?

  Um, but so when you're in medic school, going rewinding a little bit back to going to medic school, what do you, so you, do you feel like you got pretty good training there?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, for sure.

• 26:21Jocko Willink?

  So you were ready to rock?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  You're basically like just a trauma machine. So one of like the final drills is you have to be able to treat four critical patients with one aid bag. And it's kind of cool. Like they, they set up like loud speakers and I have to go in, they have like flashing lights that's simulating like a battlefield. And then you have to like crawl over to like the casualties, assess them, like tourniquets, bleeding control, say like what your interventions would be, and you have to treat four critically wounded patients to pass. So I thought it was really good.

• 26:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  The, the training that I got. And then I got orders to go to Friedberg, Germany. That's where Elvis was stationed.

• 27:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  He was in the military, Ray Barrick.

• 27:04Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Freaking legit. So you show up, how's it when you show up there?

• 27:08Speaker 01

  I was good. I was actually put in the 501st Forward Support Battalion because the Brigade Reconnaissance does not have a medic assigned to them until they deploy. So I was actually in an aid station unit. Until we deployed.

• 27:24Jocko Willink?

  And did they tell you, hey, once we deploy, you're going to go into recon troop?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  No. So that was kind of a funny story. We did all this training like up until like we knew we were going because first armor division deployed in 2003 in the initial, they came back in 2004. So we were we're slated to go back in 2006. So we knew we were going in January of 06. I was in the support battalion. So all of my training was geared towards like casualty receiving.

• 27:52Jocko Willink?

  So like being in Charlie med?

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, Charlie. So I was in Charlie med. So

• 27:58Speaker 01

  in a way it worked out to my benefit because I knew all the doctors, all the PAs, I still keep in contact with some of those people.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  But I was in Charlie med and before we deployed, I did a couple of operations with Dan and for the training and when BRT requested a medic, they requested me. So I got called into my CO's office. They're like, hey, you're being reassigned. You have orders to go with BRT. And this was like right before the deployment. So I got those orders before we went on two weeks of leave before we were going to deploy. So I got the orders, did Christmas and we were deploying like two weeks after January.

• 28:36Jocko Willink?

  So, so what, how were you, how did you get caught up on like your soldiering skills?

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Uh, I didn't. So that's what, that's what was wild is I did a couple like just, I was attached as the medic to brigade reconnaissance for some like training stuff. But then when I got assigned to them, I was kind of like on the outside. I'm like, uh, what do you guys do here? Like what's a Calvary Scout? Like, so I was like way behind the learning curve. So I looked up like their job description, what they actually do. I, I'm telling you, like, I was like way behind. And little did I know that they'd be, they were on like the forefront of like, hey, we like go into like gnarly shit.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  It was a huge culture shock, not only like fitting in with all those guys because I went from being in platoons and a company like coed, so like with women. And then I got to BRT and I had, I remembered like doing PT, like one of the first times I had dirt on my pants. And I just got lit up by the XO. He's like, I don't know who the fuck you think you are. I don't, we don't do that shit around here. Like your stuff will be clean and you'll be wired tight. I'm like, okay, this is this fucking game time. Like shit needs to be wired tight. So I kind of got like a little free pass because I was a medic, but yeah, I learned, I tried to learn their job to the best of my ability. The guys were great on like training. Every time they were doing training, I'd jump in and be like, hey, like, what are you guys doing?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  And they noticed that. So like later on in the deployment, when guys were going home on leave, like they had me be a driver. And this was when we got there, we went, we landed in Talafar. And then

• 30:19Jocko Willink?

  That's where you guys kicked off deployment was in Talafar?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  That's what

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  A little background. So Talafar, uh, what was it? The third ACR had been up there with, um, with Colonel at the time, McMaster, H R McMaster, and he, they had used the the counter insurgency strategy up in Talafar and it had worked really well. And so this brigade that was up there that took their place, the 11 AD, when they got up there, there was not a lot going on in a good way because what McMaster and third ACR had done had settled out the insurgency and that then freed up that, the 11 AD to go to the other area that needed to be suppressed, which was Ramadi.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were up there for I think approximately four months and then we got the order to start con, we had packed everything up and we're going to Ramadi.

• 31:11Jocko Willink?

  Did you feel like you got like a little more up to speed while you're up there as far as your soldiering skills?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  It gave me that, that time that I needed to like learn who they are, what they did, how they operate, like this is what a Calvary Scout is, and this is what we need from you. Like, because being the medic, you're kind of like those extra hands if need be. But also like I wanted them to rely on me. Like I want, I didn't want to just be an observer. Like I wanted to be part of like the team.

• 31:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Because I wanted to help as well. So, um, it gave me that time to watch their training, go through like what they do, what they actually do, like everything, radios, mapping, all of that. Like, so it gave me that time to kind of step up and kind of learn their job in a way.

• 31:54Jocko Willink?

  And Dan Pinion, like

• 31:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, he was on the podcast, uh, what was it? A couple of months ago and, and you see Dan Penn, you know, he looks like a, I mean, he, he looks like a normal guy now, you know, I mean, he's just a normal guy. Like we, we all look like normal guys and he looks like a normal guy. Bro, back in the day, like when he was, dude, he was a freaking beast. Like he was, he was kind of like a, a, what do they call it? They call it central casting. Like he was straight out of central casting for like first platoon, first sergeant or troop first sergeant. He was just a big stud, like angry looking dude and just a beast. Um, and that's, that was your, that was your leader.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. So it, that's what I, yeah.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Very well said. I'm not even sure what to say to that. But yeah, it's like, that was our leader and, uh, it was due to, due to the leader and like, uh, not trying to, trying to jump forward too much, but like the guys I was with, like Sergeant Marco, Sergeant Gonzalez, um, Sergeant Garcia, like that whole leadership core like kept us alive. Cause I, when, when we got orders to go to Iraq, I, I got bought into that, like hearts and minds. Like we're going over there to like, you know, help people and being a medical, but oh yeah, I can get to like help the community and do like community medicine. And those guys had already deployed, like they've been there, done that. I believe Sergeant Marco, he was in one of the ACRs that like

• 33:28Speaker 01

  pushed up like guys on their second deployment. And I was kind of like naive to the whole thing. And I remember sitting there one night, we would have to pull guard duty in Biage. And that's where we were stationed was Biage, Iraq. It was like just on the outer skirts near the Syrian border. We do, uh, missions to the Syrian border to see if they were bringing arms in or anything like that. But, nothing ever happened more than like a couple mortar attacks. And I was just like dying to get in combat because you're hearing these stories of like, oh dude, when we were in the shit and this, my medic's so good. Uh, the medic that I had before did this, the medic before like did that. And I'm like, dude, I can do that too. Like, you know what I mean? Like jealous girlfriend, like dude, hey guys, like I'm right here. And, uh,

• 34:12Speaker 01

  You never, you never can totally prepare for combat. Like because instinctually, like the first time I was ever shot, I didn't even know what happened. Because I was standing on a wall, a cop grant. I was standing on a wall and a couple of shots hit like the cinder block and brick wall in front of me. And it shot up all the debris and I dropped to the ground just, and this is like, my brain is off. I have no clue what's going on. I dropped down and Sergeant Gonzalez ran over to me. He's like, where are you hit at? Cause he thought I got shot because I dropped down. And I said, what's happening? And he's like, we're getting fucking shot at.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Are you hit? And I said, I think I'm good. And he checked me and he's like, fire back. I remember I raised my rifle up. I was like, I don't see anything. He's like, just fucking fire at anything. And I just shot at a building like I chose a building. I'm like, boom, boom. And then I was like, oh shit, like I just got shot at. Like my brain just could not process what was happening.

• 35:20Jocko Willink?

  How old are you at this point?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I was, I just turned 21. Like I, I had my 21st birthday, two weeks before we deployed. So like I was home on leave for like Christmas leave and then 21 years old, like we got shipped out. So that was like a cop grant. Got shot. I was like, dude, I have no clue. And then after that, you're like, kind of good. You're like, oh shit, like that's what rounds sound like when they're being shot at you. And like, what movie is it like the crack and the whiz? Like the crack is like super close. The whiz means it's like near you and you get used to like hearing it. You're like, oh shit, that's not even close to us. That's not even near us. But like you, you never know how you're going to react or what you're going to do or even prepare to be shot at or even fire back. Like it's.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  It's it's a life altering experience.

• 36:08Jocko Willink?

  When you so when you rolled down from Tal Afar down to Ramadi, what was it like? Was it like April or May or something like that?

• 36:18Speaker 01

  I believe it was May.

• 36:19Jocko Willink?

  And and you know, like, you know, you've been mortared a few times up there, but nothing, nothing crazy. How at what point did you recognize like the seriousness of Ramadi versus the other battlefield?

• 36:31Speaker 01

  I was so naive, like we would do missions and do you remember those like white apartments in Ramadi? They call them like the Chinese apartments. So I remember we would like drive by and like get a couple of pop shots or anything like that.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  And we were getting hit by IEDs like quite quite frequently, but they were never like hurting anyone. Like it'd be like small bits of shrapnel.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  And then we got orders to keep going up and down route Gremlin, which neighbor the train station and the university. So when it got to its worst was August 4th. So that's when we were doing, I believe it was civil affairs and I'm sure Dan will correct me like if I'm wrong, but we were doing civil affairs on another town over and White Platoon was heading back in. And near the university and near the train station, White Platoon got hit. So in the book, it explains that like it's an S curve, right?

• 37:40Speaker 01

  In the road where Sergeant Story and Sergeant Best got hit. And it was also our interpreter who passed away as well and Mike Hayes, who got thrown from the vehicle. To say that the road is an S curve, it's a little more dynamic than that because it's a road that's going from a raised like hill. And the left turn is inclusive in that S turn. So when they planted that IED, it was a command detonated IED that ran into the train station. They were making a left hand turn on an S turn. So it already like the Humvee was already kind of tilted.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  And I remember we heard this like loud explosion because we were, we were pretty far away. This loud explosion.

• 38:29Jocko Willink?

  Were you, were you on base or were you in town?

• 38:32Speaker 01

  No, I was in town. So, uh, white and red police, we were both doing missions out at the same time, just in different locations. But we were all, I believe we were somewhere near the university. And then white police, we heard the calls for white platoon, like, hey, we've been hit.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  We drive over there. I grabbed all my shit. Um, we're driving. You could see the column building, like just a black column of something burning. I'm like, what the fuck is that? Like, and like I'm saying, like naivety, like you don't know what you don't know. And before it was like, oh, they got hit by an ID, like everyone will probably be okay because that's what's happened before, like patterns repeat themselves. You know what I mean?

• 39:13Speaker 01

  So we pull up, uh, we pull outside security. Um, we get out and the vehicle was on its side. I remember that I believe, uh, Doc Harret already took Hayes. I believe he was gone or, or they might've still been there. And they said, hey, Story and Best are either inside or they got thrown.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  And I remember I walked around the outside of the vehicle and there was a hole blown in the underside of the vehicle that was larger than the turret. So that hole that was blown in the vehicle reached all four tires. And I remember like looking through it. I was like, dude, I can see through that thing. And so me and, um, me and one other guy, like I grabbed my aid bag. And I remember walking through a field like near the train station because we were looking for them and I, we were calling out to their, their names like, hey, you know, Clint, like where are these guys? And we were looking at each other and, um, and then someone told me like, they're still in the vehicle.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  And I was like, no, like there's nothing left of the vehicle. What do you mean they're still in the vehicle? And it's just this like,

• 40:25Speaker 01

  this unreal.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Like thought that that they're gone. Like, what do you mean they're still in there? Like, they were just here. Like, they were just playing poker a couple nights ago. Like, those are your boys. And the interpreter was in there too.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Um, when it hit me that it was like, this is, this is like, the real deal is we would carry body bags on our vehicle. And they told me to go get the body bags. And I was like, what the, like, what the fuck? Like, I put them in there, like, so I was the driver, so I had to inventory everything. I knew where everything was on that piece of equipment. Grabbed the body bag and I think Sergeant Marsh walked over with an arm. It was the interpreter's arm, just an arm. He's like, open the bag. I unzipped it and he like dropped it in. And he's like, all right, take that over there or whatever. And I was like, dude, what, where am I? Like, what the fuck am I in right now?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  And that's when I was like, this is for fucking keeps. And you don't realize like, how much you can have disdain for other people because they just killed your friends.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Does that make sense? I'm, I would, I remember getting back to our tents. And I just broke down crying because like, I was like, what did we miss? Because we drove over that road multiple times that day. And how long has it been there? It was a command detonated IED. They had to have dug it up. They've had to disturb the road in some way. They laid wire into the train station and detonated it. How did we all miss that?

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Like, it's the guilt that you carry with like, dude, maybe I, maybe I should have saw it when I was driving because I drove by it on my left side. Getting out to the village that we were in. Like, it, it's unacceptable. And I don't know, I, I think about that and being over there every single day of my life. Like, it's, it's terrible. Like,

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, uh, we were, you know, speaking of Johnny Kim, we were, he was not only a sniper, not only a medic, but he would also do lead nav in our, in the Humvees and he'd be in like the front vehicle in the nav position and we were going across the bridge. ECP three, I think, drove across that bridge. We're going to go driving our vehicles to Cop Falcon, but we went through to meme to get there. And we're driving slowly, you know, like really trying to be careful, looking for pressure plates. And, you know, whatever, uh, what do they call it? Crush wires and stuff like that, as opposed to looking for command debt stuff. But we're looking, you know, we're driving and I'm in vehicle two, you know, cause it's normally driving vehicle two. And so I'm just sitting there and all of a sudden like the vehicle stop and.

• 43:23Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Johnny like thought he saw something and he like, guys get out with white lights to try and look around and find the, uh, we don't think it's anything. So we drive, we continue to Cop Falcon. And then like an hour later, um, the, the IED guys like find like a triple stack there. So, so we found it, stopped, looked at it, or like looked for it. And decided it wasn't anything and just drove over it like, like no factor. So, yeah, the randomness of combat is very strange. And that's a good case. You know, you're saying you guys drove by that shit all day long and that probably.

• 44:00Jocko Willink?

  You know, like you said, those guys take time, put stuff in there and they'll leave it in there for days, if not weeks, if not months, just waiting for the right time. When they can think they can get away with it. So for the earth to have been disturbed three weeks ago, you're not going to see that anymore. You know, it's like, and they did a good job. They would. You know, they would like put dust and sweep around it and, you know, put trash on it, whatever. Like you wouldn't be able to tell.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  EOD showed us one time a pressure plate that I thought was like really ingenious. Like say what you will about them, but they were pretty, pretty intelligent, like the hand saw blades. They would take two of those and just space it with cardboard and connect the, the two wires to it. So those two saw blades would never touch because of the cardboard. But you drive a Humvee tire over it, it's going to connect those two saw blades and talk about like. Efficient, cheap, and you could keep redoing it over and over and over, but just with just two saw blades, running over an IED like.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  I don't know. It was just, it was wild.

• 45:02Jocko Willink?

  So we fast forward a little bit. Tell, tell me a little bit about what the Brigade Recon Troop was doing. And I'll start by saying this. It was almost the exact same thing that my SEALs were doing, which is going out, setting up Overwatch positions in areas where the enemy was expected to be. The enemy had been, we thought the enemy might be traversing through, there was gonna be other operations that were taking place where Overwatch was needed. You know, we were, and oftentimes we worked together mutually supporting each other. But what was, that kind of just talk like what a day to day getting spun up for an operation, briefing the operation, going out and doing it. What was it like for you?

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Um, so we would always, depending on what we were getting, a lot of times we'd get route clearance. Once a month, we got to do, uh, going to uh, Biop, like the Baghdad International Airport to pick up the recruits for the Iraqi Army or the Police Force. And then we would do, uh, we would convoy them out there and then come back. We were stoked because we got to get Burger King and Cinnabon and on Biop had everything, man. They had that little bazaar where you could buy all the new movies and everything. Yeah, for like five bucks, talk them down to like four. Like, man, give me three of them and I'll give you 10 bucks.

• 46:22Jocko Willink?

  Cinnabon.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, so how good was it? And it was like cheap McDonald's, like where's this going from? But we were just stoked to get out of there. Um, the, but like, then we started doing like the small kill team stuff. And, and it was, we did it before, but like I said, like nothing ever really happened. And it was a, it was a huge learning curve, like for me as well, like what do I do on these things? Cause I'd always be in the back, like, uh, while guys would like breach doors. Going in, taking over, uh, the buildings and more than likely we were taking over two at a time. Because, uh, for a small kill team, you want two positions. It, if, uh, so one can watch the other one. That way it's a little bit easier.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  So we get the brief, uh, let it be known, like enemy contact is either. Imminent, highly likely, I always worried about like moon illumination because no joke over there like, like you can see everything if the moon is bright because there's no pollution, no smog, no nothing. It's just the hum of everyone's personal generators outside. So the illumination played a big factor in everything.

• 47:32Jocko Willink?

  The other thing that was interesting about you guys was you might be supporting any battalion that was there. You know, you guys support the Marines sometimes, which was three eight and then one six. You guys supported the one three five, the one three seven. And, you know, Colonel McFarland, he was putting you guys, you know, wherever there was friction, wherever there was things going on, he'd do the same thing with us. And, you know, sometimes we would work together. Sometimes there was multiple things to support. And it's weird, you know, on, on August 2nd, you know, I had Colonel Dean, who was a commander of the one three five on the podcast. And, you know, on August 2nd, that's what, that's when Mark

• 48:12Jocko Willink?

  Lee was killed and Ryan Jobe was badly wounded. And I had, I had forgotten that on that day, where we were conducting that operation with the one three seven in downtown Baghdad, I had a whole nother element of SEALs that were with the one three five at the university, doing a big massive clearance at the university. And it just, you know, like, it was a pretty mellow operation in relatively, relative to what operations could be like, and definitely relative to what was happening in downtown with the one three seven. But I had forgotten, like, oh yeah, we were there and had a whole support element, had in, had SEAL intel guys

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  out there, like, doing interrogations and whatnot. And so, you know, depending on what was going on in the city, my SEALs were getting moved around and we were moving around to support what was happening. And then you guys were doing literally the exact same thing. And if it was a big enough operation, they'd throw, you know, we'd, we'd both have elements out there, in various overwatch positions. I might have two or three, you might have one, two or three, and we'd be mutually supporting ourselves and then mutually supporting each other.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  How crazy is that? That like, all that happened, what, 19 years ago? And now we're sitting here. And we didn't even know it, being in the same room together. It's wild. It's wild how things work out. And I don't know, I truly do believe that like, things happen for a reason. But there really was like no rhyme or reason. It was like whatever job needed to get done, they'd call us, whether it was route clearance, support. I hated supporting the engineers.

• 49:47Jocko Willink?

  You guys were doing route clearance. What were you doing?

• 49:49Speaker 01

  We'd get attached to the engineers and they would go out with like the Buffalos and just

• 49:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you'd you'd be in the Humvees behind them?

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Literally looking for mines.

• 49:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know, that was sketch.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Like, I would rather walk through downtown Ramadi without an IBA.

• 50:02Jocko Willink?

  A hundred percent.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  But then drive anywhere. I'll walk. I don't care. I don't want to drive this thing. Like, it's terrifying. Because like, they couldn't shoot anyway. Like, they'd shoot at you and it was always like just pop shots or whatever. But driving was the most terrifying. I always thought like route clearance, like this is this is it. Like, this is where we're we're gonna get hit.

• 50:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, my first time going in Buffalo, which was the IED vehicles. And I was just catching a ride from one side of Ramadi to the other, but they're still gonna do their job. And it's really weird because you know, when you're when you're out on patrol, whether you're in a Humvee or whether you're on foot, you are actively like patrolling, right? You're checking your field of fire, you're scanning, you're thinking you're gonna get blown up, you're looking at the ground.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  If I was if I was a dude, where would I be hiding?

• 50:49Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. You're going through all that stuff. And so here I am in a Buffalo, and I'm literally just a passenger.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  You're trapped.

• 50:55Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, they're they're high up. They got big ass windows.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  That thing tilts over. Like, what are you guys doing?

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  And and it's air conditioned. So I'm sitting in this thing for the first time and I was like, it was really kind. I felt like the way like a sightseeing person must feel when they go on like a

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Like you're on a train.

• 51:17Jocko Willink?

  Double decker bus through London and you're just looking around. That's what it felt like.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  You know, and of course, the whole time, you you can still get blown up.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 51:24Jocko Willink?

  And those guys, you know, the heroics of those route clearance guys day after day.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Multiple times a day.

• 51:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and they would get hit with an IED. Which meant the IED was now cleared and they would continue on the mission.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Nuts.

• 51:41Jocko Willink?

  It was freaking nuts. So what you're talking about when you guys would, when you guys would do route clearance, all you're doing is getting in your Humvees and following the freaking buffalo.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're driving a coffin. Like, we're just waiting. Cause we were just providing support for them. Like if some shit happened, we'd break off and go, go attack the element that attacked them. So that way they could finish their mission. I don't know how those dudes, like big props to the engineers and all those guys that did route clearance every day. Like God bless you.

• 52:11Jocko Willink?

  God bless those guys, man.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Man, and like talk about a scary job, but I don't know. I tell people that all the time. I'd rather walk naked through Ramadi than drive. Like any day. Cause it was terrifying.

• 52:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, yeah, but I'm thinking for you guys, that's just one of the rotating missions that you did was, oh, by the way, you're gonna go do route.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was never like a set. We'd get like durations of like set schedules. Like we had to go to Cop Grant for two weeks. It seemed to be like shorter durations of missions or, hey, uh, come up here. We're going to go do a small kill team. We're gonna support this element, this element. Like it was always like kind of random, which I kind of dug because it was never the same thing over and over, which kind of like, maybe that's why I like firefighting. Cause it's never the same thing over and over.

• 52:54Jocko Willink?

  And, and you came to my base one time for a briefing. That must've been crazy because also I was really strict with uniforms with my guys. When they left my compound, but if they were in my compound, I didn't care. Like you want to wear flip flops and a, you know, surf shorts and a t-shirt, whatever. Just when you go out and you interact with the conventional forces, like you will be in a squared away uniform. Well, in a squared away uniform as a SEAL can put on, which is not that squared away. But you come down there and you, were you like, damn, this is seems pretty laid back. What was your impression?

• 53:27Speaker 01

  I was shocked. Like I was telling you earlier, like first name bases, like that does not happen in the regular army. Like you address everyone, no matter how close you are. Like by rank and air, like, I don't know. It was just, I was blown away. But like just operationally, but I believe like to survive, you need to be that close knit. Cause during combat, it comes down to like, it's not right or wrong. It's like the dude to your left and your right. Like you're not fighting, you're not fighting for any political agenda. If you're on the right side of history, you know, like you're fighting to get home. Like it gets to a point where you're like, dude, if I, if I don't like Sergeant Gonzalez would always say like, fight like you're already dead because we are going to die here. Like if you don't perform.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And the worst thing, the worst action is inaction. Like especially when you're taking fire, if, if anything happens, just not being able to decide what to do. And I learned that early on, like from the leadership and the mentorship of them, but like seeing how you guys operated, it was obviously intimidating. Like you tell anyone like, hey, we're going to go to the SEAL base. And of course we're all like, you guys better have your shit like washed, clean. Like they're going to be looking at us because like, we're going to be doing outer court on security for, for these guys. Like, so they need to be able to rely on us. It's intimidating. And I believe our sniper, David Cantor, I believe he caught on one of the small kill teams, like shot a dude that was like approaching your position with a couple of grenades and you guys gave him a coin.

• 54:53Jocko Willink?

  Hell yeah.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was, I don't know, gnarly.

• 54:58Jocko Willink?

  Um, you know, you, you lost guys, those, the story in best, uh, August 4th. And then not even a couple of weeks later, you guys had, uh, Sergeant Quick get killed.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  It was the 19th of August. So we were, uh, with story and best, like we were, we were in the city. We were already out with quick. We got woken up and were told, or we were in the, we were in our tents and, uh, we got brought in and we were told that like, uh, quick got hit. White platoons in some shit like, and we need to do the QRF, like quick reaction force. Like that's our dudes. Like everyone just ran out as quick as they could and got in our Humvees and just waited and we were idle because they already exfil them, uh, back to the camp. And then that's when we were told like story didn't make it. There were a couple of other guys that were wounded,

• 55:52Speaker 01

  but what was really weird about that, that operation was it, it flip flopped like red, white, red, white. So we did that same mission the day before.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  And Sergeant Quick, like he and I had like a very interesting like relationship. So when we were in Kuwait, one time I left the quarters without my cover. And I was with one of like, I was with one of my buddies because you always had to travel in pairs. And he's like, hey, where's your fucking cover? And I think I was just going to take a piss or something like it was like super short. Going to go right there and come right back. And I told him, I was like, I forgot it. There's no excuse, Sergeant. And he's like, I fucking like that answer. And I said, it's not going to happen again. So like ever since then, like him and I had like a pretty cool relationship. We would joke around a lot and it was funny when, when I was going out on the mission first. And he's like, hey, Black, don't let anything happen to yourself. I don't know what I do, or I don't know what I do with myself if anything happened to you.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Something to that extent, I'm paraphrasing. Um, so when I saw him the next day and I said, hey, don't let anything happen. I don't know what I do with myself without you. Just joking and fucking that was the last words I ever said to that man. So like we got word that like he passed away. Um, and I think I was a newly promoted corporal. And in the army, it's kind of the lateral E4 position. Like if you show that you're showing signs of like leadership, they can laterally promote you. And I was like a newly promoted corporal and there, and I promise there's a point to this story. So after Sergeant Quick passed away, um, they called all NCOs to the talk.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  And this was Dan, like Dan pulled us up there. And, um, I'm not sure if he mentioned it or anything, but he had, uh, he called all of us into his room. And in the talk, it was like the radio room, he had his own room and he called us all in there. Shut the door and do you remember they issued us those stupid side plates? Like, and they were like, hey, this is like this new thing. And, uh, I was like, dude, I already got birthing hips. Like I can't wear side plates. I can't be whiter than I already am. And so I remember wearing the side plates. He called us in there and, uh, under his bed, he pulled it out and threw it in the center of the room. And it was Sergeant Quick's IBA. So that's, that's the correct term for it, right? The IBA?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Trying to remember, um.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  And it was after he'd been hit with grenades. So like you could imagine like him placing that in the center of the room.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  And he said, his blood is on all of your hands. He's like, what's missing? And one guy, I don't even know who it was, he's like, his side plates.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  He's like, would he have lived with his side plates? And uh, probably not. He's like, but you guys need to check each other to make sure you guys are wearing your shit. This is the last time I'm ever gonna say it and that the image is just like burned into my brain of like he just died and you're throwing his gear on the ground. And it's taken years to like try and realize like, and to try and understand why he did something so like, like shock value, I guess. But it instilled that like this is fucking life or death. Like you guys need to fucking check each other.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  If you get laxadaisical on the protective equipment that we wear, it will fucking kill you. And it worked. Like, man, that was like so fucking brutal and horrific. Like, I don't know. It was just, that was tough. So I remember I was, I was like brand new to this NCO thing. Like, why am I in here? Seeing that I was like, fuck man, like it's fucking brutal.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Those side sappy plates.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Remember they actually brought a truckload of them down to Cop Falcon. So we're at Cop Falcon and they brought a truckload of them down to Cop Falcon and started handing them out to guys.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  I was like, what the fuck is this? Like, we're already heavy enough. Like, it's already hard enough to move. It's already hard enough to get around. I remember they gave us, there was like a prototype for, it was a fan. It was like this cylindrical device that you could put on the back of your IBA. And when it will blow air, it was just a fan that will blow air up your plate. They're like, hey, you're gonna try this out. Like whose uncle is making money off of this thing? Like right now, selling this contract to the government?

• 1:00:40Jocko Willink?

  And then I'd see like, uh, like some gunner on a one third, on a one, one, three or, and dude, they would have every piece of body armor that you could put on the collar thing. Remember the shoulder?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, the shoulder pads.

• 1:00:53Jocko Willink?

  The cut, like the groin protector.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  So like the gunners would have to wear all that stuff. Like it, like if you were driving, you had to like the side plates were a bitch. Like trying to drive with those things, especially like the radio in the way. And all right, this is a freaking pain in the ass. It was so much gear and it was so freaking fucking hot as hell, heavy.

• 1:01:15Jocko Willink?

  And your op tempo talk, you know, you're talking about red going out, white going out. Who were you? Which one were you in?

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  I was red.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  And then how often are you going out?

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Uh, depending on the mission. So sometimes we'd go out together or something. And then if it was a mission like route clearance, then we'd like switch off. Or if it was like a small kill team, like just for instance, like that small kill team, uh, we went first, white went second, or however it played out. It was all depending on like what the, what the leader's intent was for that mission and what the operation needed.

• 1:01:44Jocko Willink?

  And then you were always on QRF.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, if they were out, then we were always on QRF.

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Standing by to go.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Standing by to go. One minute you had to be ready to go. Engines on, ready to take orders. So all we, you, we were just in our tents all day, especially if our own dudes were out, like we were, some guys would just hang out at the Humvees, like when our dudes were out and just play cards, bullshit.

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  It's, you know, I, when I was a kid, I never pictured a war to be like, it's, it's 50 feet away. You know what I mean? Like it's, we're here, we're on a base, we're playing cards or we're eating chow or whatever. But in three minutes, you can be like in a complete and utter gunfight.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Shit show.

• 1:02:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Just getting shot where you don't even know where it's coming from. You're like, where the fuck is that? Like, where are we getting shot at from? It's just wild because it and they'd always fire a couple of shots then run. So like by the time where you even could like look to see where it was coming from. Like, oh, fuck, they're gone. Like, very rarely was it like they're gonna shoot and stay there because they know that we're gonna freaking annihilate them. Like their guns aren't zeroed or especially like I remember a Bradley one time locked onto a window and just driving like 50 miles an hour, just its barrel followed and just destroyed that window how fast it could go and how ferocious it was like it was gnarly.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Bradleys are freaking legit.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Crazy, crazy fast.

• 1:03:13Jocko Willink?

  So in in the book,

• 1:03:16Jocko Willink?

  you know, Dan talks about David Dietrich and he was kind of like a kid that was sort of struggling to to make it and he he finally gets to go out on an operation. This is December 29th. He finally gets to go out and you know, Dan's sort of like is saying, hey, you know, fix your headgear. I forget if his headgear is I pro or something and and Dietrich like gives him a big hug. And it's like, hey, this is the best day of my life or something along those lines. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but you know, the kid was totally fired up because he wanted to be a soldier. He wanted to go to combat. He had worked his ass off. You guys had been training him and trying to get him up to speed. And finally, he's up to speed. He goes out and

• 1:04:01Jocko Willink?

  he ends up getting killed. It would now, were you the medic? You were the medic on that operation?

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:07Jocko Willink?

  What do you? What do you remember about it?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Um, just for like a little context of that, we were supposed to go home in December. Because we were, it was a 12 month order. So we got there in January. They were trying to get us home by Christmas. Like that was the rumor. Like the rumor mill was always like, hey, they're trying to get us home by Christmas. Third ID should be here. So they should relieve us if not like first thing in January. And I forget exactly when I want to say it was around like Thanksgiving. And credit to our officers because like they they always said like, we're never going to hide anything from you guys. And as soon as they knew, they told us they're like, hey, we're extended for up to three months. I remember calling my mom. I'm like, hey, uh, and she thought I was in an aid station anyway.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Like she had no clue what I was doing. Um, and I remember calling her. I'm like, hey, uh, they're keeping us here. Cause it was like, uh, John McCain wanted the 20,000 troop boost in 2007. So we had to stay. So this is like, now we've been through all this combat, like we've lost friends. Guys have like literally lost body parts. Like we were just so like tattered. I believe one out of every three of us got a Purple Heart. Like we were just like trying to get by. And then in November, it's like, hey, we're not going home. It's like shit. Okay. So every mission after that, you're like, we should be fucking home by now. Like this is bullshit. Like, why are we going on

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  these missions? And so-

• 1:05:39Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, you know, when I had, uh, General McFarlane on here, I forget the exact numbers, but from like the time you were extended, the 11 AD lost like another 30 soldiers. You know, it wasn't like, oh, we're extended. We have to stay longer. It's like, no, we're extended. We have to stay longer and we're going to continue to have to fight every single day against a determined enemy.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Oh, wait. The weather cooled off. They wanted to kill us. It wasn't a hundred and fuck outside to where they like were miserable too. Like when it cools down, like they want to get us like, and they'll wait. They waited for us and, and on December 29th, it was, we went to cop firecracker to support the Marines. Uh, we pulled up into their AO and, uh, we got this small kill team mission to where we would take over two buildings. Um, we infilled at night, uh, as we always did, infilled at night. Um, and then, uh, did our operation throughout the night, got everything set up. And, uh, I remember- I was laying down and then all of a sudden I I heard over the radio like we heard the shot.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  So everyone's up and we're like, oh, fuck. And you kind of like sit there because it was just a single shot. And it's like, okay, like, when's it gonna start? Like, like, you know, just all hell breaking loose. I remember I sat up and I'm like, okay, like, let's wait and see like how this plays out, listen to radio traffic and then go from there. I sat up and I forget who was on the radio. They're like, hey, we need fucking black over here. And I'm like, this is bad. So the way it worked is we had two, we had the two houses. But you had to go outside of the house and turn a corner to get to the other one. So I was in house, let's say A, and Dietrich was shot in house B.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Well, we would go downstairs and every time we infill that night, we'd take those like big ass zip ties that they'd give us to like use as handcuffs if we took any prisoners or anything. We just zip tied the door like completely shut. And at this time, like, we're still not hearing anything. Nothing's going on. But they were saying that like, one of, one of the guys is hit and we didn't know who it was. It's, um. So I remember like cutting, like, I think it was Sergeant Gonzalez or Sergeant Beal was like cutting the zip ties off the door. I'm like, fucking hurry up. Like, oh, my gosh, like, get those things off. Like, we need to get to our dude. And we knew it was a right and a right. So we needed to get out. I was in the middle. So like, you get in the middle, like, so we can watch, like, because you're not, like, you're the medic.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Like, we need to get you over there. So I got in the middle. Sergeant Gonzalez led. Uh, we made a right, made a right. We're pounding on the door like, hey, fucking let us in. And you could hear them cutting their zip ties on their door inside. And it was just this like masonry building, like this concrete. Like a concrete building that had a stairway up and then up again. So it made like a 90 degree turn. When we got to the second floor landing.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  The one of our guys there, Bago, was just holding a Israeli dressing on his head. And I'll never forget like the look he gave me. Because like just the whites of his eyes were like, dude, what the fuck? So I remember I, I dropped down. I took my shit off, dropped my bag.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  The first thing I said is like, where did you get shot from? And they said that window over there and there's a window is probably 10 feet away. I said, get someone on the fucking window. Like, because they're either gonna throw grenades in because they already know we're in here. Or like, at least get someone over there to look like, so we don't take more casualties.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  I dropped down. I took the Israeli bandage from Baca, I said, I got it. And I like, I pulled it back and it was like, if, if you had to describe it, it was just like a human brain. It looked like someone mixed like Jell-O and like chicken fat and just like the amount of heat that was leaving his body was like insane because a lot of heat leaves through your head. So like, I peel it back and it's just like steaming, like you just took the pot off of like boiling water. And I put the, the dressing bag on his head. I grabbed his hand because he was, he was still shaking.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  And I said, hey, Dietrich, if you can hear me, squeeze my hand. Because he was still breathing and like, he didn't give a response. I said, buddy, if you can, if you can hear me squeeze my hand, please, like, we're gonna get you out of here. So, place the dressing back on, wrap it up. He's still like losing heat.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  I threw a collar around his neck and I just remember I was like, hey, someone give me the litter. Someone threw a litter on him. Then he started to do, when you have like severe brain damage, your body starts to get in to what they call like decortebic kit and disserbit posturing. So I'd only read about it in books like from like the military training. And he started like posturing. So I was like, oh shit, like this is bad. We get him on the litter and as we're carrying him down the stairs, that like aggressive turn from upstairs, like on the landing, we couldn't get all of us to carry him at the same time. So I was like, fucking give him to me.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  So I grabbed him and I just started carrying him down the stairs. And I said, let's put him back on the litter when we get outside.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Carry him downstairs. There's just like green matter like all over me. Just shit everywhere. We put him back on the litter. It's like, hey, I need four guys to tell me carry him. And this is when like,

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Dan was at the end of the road, probably like a quarter mile away. Like we were in the middle of freaking nowhere. I get down, he's posturing. Now he's posturing in. He's like shaking. I'm like, fuck, he's fucking like this is, this is horrific.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  I, I said, Dietrich, like, you're good, dude. Like, like, you're good. Like, we're, we're, we're already outside. Like, we're gonna get you out of here, man.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  And fucking then like grenades started popping off and it was just the fucking machine gun fire. I didn't know where the fuck it was coming from. Like, my only concern was like him. So I covered him.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  And I'm just like blocking him because I didn't know where shit was coming from. They were like, hey, fucking pop smoke. Like, when I tell you like our leadership over there was fucking top notch. Like, they, they took care of us. Like they were the most brutal, like warfighters that you could ever imagine that could make decisions under pressure for the greater good of the platoon and, and us. They knew to pop smoke. They had communications with getting him out of there. And they like laid down suppressing fire. Like it was just so perfectly coordinated that we were able to like pick him up.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Pick him up. We ran him out of there. And got him, got him off to the aid station, but it was a

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Then we had to like run back to cop firecracker and that like we're still in the middle of fucking city. It's like, dude, what the fuck? Like, we know they're out here. They, we know they're watching us. The streets are empty. Like, you know, some shit's gonna go down when all the kids leave. Like, when the kids are playing outside, it's like, oh, dude, nothing's gonna happen now. When all the kids leave the street, you're like, oh, fuck. Like, what's gonna happen? Like, when people start emptying the street. But Lieutenant O'Hare asked me, he's like, do you think he'll be okay? And I said, well, he's never gonna be Dietrich again. And they called us, they called us into a meeting. It was in like, one of the top stories of cop firecracker. And they, they let us know

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  that he passed away. And I was like, fuck, man. Like, I, I just started crying. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. Like, I felt like I failed him. Like, I, like, why, why didn't I save him? Like, that was my job. Like, that was all I was over there to do was like, to save lives. And then to compound off of that, it was story best. Like, why didn't I see that IED?

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Like, why did I say to quick? Like, I don't know what I'd do with myself if something happened to you. Like, that, like, what, like, this is fucking hell. Why am I here? Like, what am I doing? And you just wanna like, quit and give up? Because they just keep coming for you fucking day after day. And then not but like, three days later, route clearance mission. You're like, like, I am gonna fucking die over here. And all I was, I remember telling myself, like, thank God, like, I don't have kids. Or like, thank God, I don't have a fucking wife. Like, my mom will be sad. But like, dude, like, this is, this is the fucking end.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  It was brutal and nothing ever prepares you for that. Like, how do you prepare for that? It's like, watch your friends pass away. It's fucked up.

• 1:15:09Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you take leave? Whatever the, the, when you go home for two weeks, did you do that at some point during that deployment?

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:15:17Jocko Willink?

  When was it?

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  I went in July. So,

• 1:15:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  Um, we'd still, we were in Ramadi and that's when we were just getting like peppered by the IEDs like every once in a while. And my first day back, um, I want to say it was like July 24th. So we were doing, we were over by the university once again, and this is like kind of taking it back. So now we're back in July. We were driving by the university and I was the tail vehicle. And all of a sudden, like, the vehicle in front of me just blows up. And I couldn't like, I didn't hear anything. And it was the vehicle directly in front of me, just and like, I have never in my life experienced or seen just kinetic raw energy

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  blow a solid Humvee just into pieces, just obliterated it.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  And you know how like the Humvee window, like the windshields are flat? I remember I'm tall, so I had to like bend over and I looked up and I'm just watching like shrapnel fly in the air. And it hits me, I'm like, oh, fuck, our dudes, like, our dudes are inside. This is my first day back off of leave. So like, I just did, uh, hung out with my grandma, my uncle, my uncle's asking for stories. Hey, man, what kind of shit are you getting in over there? Like, fuck, yeah, like, he's all into it. And Sergeant Marco told me, he's like, you stay right fucking there. Do not get out because they were planning the secondary IEDs. So we thought it was a, like, the primary, waiting for the secondary. Uh, there were four people in that vehicle at that time. So Sergeant Gonzalez,

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  he gets out of the vehicle, he's on fire, like, he's jumping on the ground, like, rolling around. There was another guy, his name was Robertson or Robinson. Um, he was a replacement. And another dude, he was in, uh, the backseat. He got out and he was like trying to kick himself away from the Humvee because now it's cooking off. No movement from the driver door and the gunner was thrown.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  So Sergeant Marco gets out it and we're still like right by the university. So I'm like, holy shit, like we're in a horrible spot like they can see us from everywhere. Um, and my gunner Nina, I was like, dude, I'm getting out like I'm going and Nina's like, if you get out, I'll shoot you. And so I'm just sitting there holding my aid bag like just ready to go. And it felt like eternity. I'm like, dude, just like, let me go. Finally, he turns around. He's like, come up. Um, and Strickland wasn't getting out of the vehicle. So we like, we opened or I opened the door. It's just like shit's popping off. It's on

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  fire. Um, Strickland would always drive with his arm up on the radio. So I opened the door. He's kind of like hunched over. And I remember I, I just grabbed him like by the, the handle on his back, pulled him out like he was weightless, like just so much fucking adrenaline that I had. And I was pulling him off like out of the Humvee. And I looked down, I'll never forget like I was dragging him. And I looked down and his arm is hanging on by like just the skin like, and I was dragging it in the dirt. So I had to like pick him up onto my chest. And like I said, like weightless, picked it up, patched him up.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Robertson, uh, his foot was like blown open, had a gnarly head wound, patched him up, went over to Gonzalez. I'm like, where are you fucking hit? He's like, my legs, my legs, my legs. He kept saying his legs. And I couldn't find anything. Um, and we got everyone out of there in like 13 minutes. Like it was super, super fast. But that was like my introduction back from leave. And that was, and like word was thrown the gunner. I believe he broke his pelvis or his legs, like he was just thrown super far. But those were like,

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  I don't know, that was, it was gnarly.

• 1:19:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, the reason I ask is we, well, first of all, in the SEAL teams and in the Marine Corps, we do shorter deployments than you guys. We do like six or seven month deployments. You guys are doing freaking 12, 14, 15, 16 month deployments. And so you guys get leave in the middle of it. Which I, I honestly don't know, like, that seems like it'd be really psychologically hard to do. Go home and just be everything normal for two weeks. And then especially like you're going to go back and you know what you're getting into.

• 1:20:06Jocko Willink?

  That seems like it'd be really hard to do.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  There, there were stories of guys that just didn't come back. They're like, yeah, like they left there because you'd go to Kuwait and like check in all your stuff. And fly home and they just never would come back. Just stories. I never personally witnessed it, but I, I could see how that would happen. But I know for me, it would be the guilt. Like I wouldn't want, like I wouldn't want another medic unless it was like Doc Herod there with my guys. Cause I was like, if anyone's working on him, it's going to be me. And that's what, that's what I took at least like some pride in. Like if my guys are going like, I'm going to, and I hope I did a good job and goodbye them. Um, looking back, you can always like, pick apart everything. Like maybe if I would have done this, maybe if I would have done that, but you just,

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  you end up in this cycle of like self-loathing that is not good. It's not healthy and it just, it's toxic and it's like, I just became a fucking miserable person. Like just, because like survival's guilt, survivor's guilt for one is, was like a huge thing. Like fuck, I wish I would have died because some of those guys had wives and kids. Like, I'm like, and part of you is like, I wish I would have died. And like, huh, fuck, I could probably, I could probably do that now. I could probably still kill myself. And it's, I, I know it's like taboo to like talk about it, but it, it's the reality of everything. Cause you, the brain is a very, very

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  scary device and the way that it's wired, that if you tell yourself something enough times, like you'll actually start to think it's true. And over time, I wouldn't talk about things that were actually like going on in my head and like thoughts that I would have. And it just compounded on top of itself, on top of like my job, like horrific shit that I'd see at work that would bring up like old memories like this. Still to this day, the smell of a burning vehicle, I have to like, take a second and be like, okay, I'm not there. Like I'm not in Iraq because that smell was the first time. Like in Iraq was the first time I smelled a burning vehicle and my brain associates that with my dead friends. So luckily, like over time, I've told myself like, all right, if I smell it, like it's not,

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  I'm not there, I'm safe, I'm fine.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  But it can just be a roller coaster of, of like pain and anguish and, and I became a pretty terrible person to like, not only like myself, but to be around, but I just wouldn't talk about it. And I wish, I wish back then, like looking back, hindsight's always 2020. I wish I would have like gotten the help that I needed. I wish I would have been honest. Cause I was going to the therapist, but I was never like 100% transparent. Like I would never go to, I wouldn't show up to the therapist and be like, hey, I watch videos online of Humvees getting blown up and wishing that I was in the Humvee. Like, because I was scared of them saying like, you need to get locked up in treatment.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  And then I would never tell them like, hey, I, I fascinate with like killing myself. It was always like, I'm good. And they would say like, how are you doing? Like, no, I'm good. Doing good. Uh, the antidepressants are working. Like they fucking weren't. They were not working, like they were making it worse.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  And it,

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  and it got to the point like, I would just go years with just saying I was okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. I fucking wasn't okay. Like I wish. I wish I would have like reached out to my friends and been like, hey, man, like, are you going through this too? Like, I'm like, super infatuated with like, ending my life. And I would never tell anyone that, but I also like, got off on it because it was my secret. Like, I just held on to it. Like, it was a sense of power. But in reality, I was just, I was losing it, like, every day. Like, through therapy, they, they explained that, like, your neurons can get rewired. And when you go through something like so traumatic, like, like what happened in Iraq, it's not necessarily the events that happened

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  in Iraq. It's when your brain was developing, the seed was planted. So, when I lost my friends there, like, your brain associates that with, like, possibly my dad leaving. So, I went to therapy. I ended up having to go to 30 days in Utah.

• 1:24:35Jocko Willink?

  And, and you're now in the mindset of like, accepting that, hmm, you're gonna die?

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Like, I, I thought, I thought I was dying over there, for sure.

• 1:24:46Jocko Willink?

  And then, so how is, you know, you're powering through, you're going in the field every day, or every other day at a minimum, you're on QRF, you're sitting in overwatch positions, you're doing route clearance. And every time you go out, it's like, the, the gut-wrenching, like, oh, yeah, this, you know, probably coming today.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  You hit a point where you're so numb, you're like, fuck it. Like, it's not like, if I'm gonna die, it's how. Like, and I hope it's glorious. Like, you get, it's twisted. And then you look at, you don't even look at, as horrible as it sounds, like, the population there, you don't even look at it as like, humans, you look at them, it's like a threat. It, it's terrible. Like, the way that you would like, view another human being, like, it was totally different, like, the, just the, the parallels that happened, like, from getting there, being like, yeah, hearts and minds, like, I'm a medic, I can actually help people, community medicine, to like, I, I need to, like, either kill everyone, just to make it back home, or I need to find a way out of here.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Like just the two extreme parallels that I never thought I'd get into like my brain wasn't, I don't think equipped to like deal with that. I ju- I didn't realize what I was getting myself into.

• 1:25:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, I've, I was having a conversation with a Marine that was in Ramadi with us and, and uh, he had a hard time coming home and I was like, bro, it's not normal. It's not normal for a person to like risk their life every single day and watch their friends and their troops and people that rely on and people that they're responsible for to die.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Jocko Willink?

  Repeatedly, like that's not, hey, I get it. You know, everyone experiences death. You know, if you're a hunter, you go out, you killed, you know, you go out, you kill an elk, you kill a deer. If you're a farmer, you, you know, or a rancher, you kill a cattle. If you're a normal person, you know, your parents get old and they die. You, you know, occasionally someone you know, gets sick in a tor- terrible situation and they die, but like to just be surrounded. Like when I was a kid, I had, I had a friend that died. I think he had some kind of a heart problem. And this was maybe in fourth or fifth grade. And you know, it was like shocking, but that was one kid and you're a little kid and I don't even think you're really old enough to process it yet. But when you're in combat in Ramadi and it's like, oh, oh, another person just died today.

• 1:27:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, let's go to another memorial service. Oh, another, oh, now it's one of my friends out. Oh, it's another memorial service.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Every other.

• 1:27:12Jocko Willink?

  Over and over and over and over again. That shit's not normal. And so for people to,

• 1:27:21Jocko Willink?

  for people to get tripped up and be like, oh, well, number one, I'm gonna die. And if I don't die, then there's something wrong with me because I should be dying. And there's no way I'm gonna make it home anyways. And by the way, these people that are, that are trying to kill us, fuck all them.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  Hate them.

• 1:27:35Jocko Willink?

  Yep, hate them. And you know, people talk about like, oh, you know, um, you know, like the Vietnam vets will go back to Vietnam and people are like, oh, John, do you ever want to go back to like Iraq? And I'm like, no, no. Well, what about when you're older? I am older. I don't want to go back. Like, it's not happening. I don't want to go there. I want to see it.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:53Jocko Willink?

  Um, so as you're, what happened mentally, like as you started getting short as all of a sudden it's like, oh, you, you think you might actually be going home?

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. To insult the injury, I was stop lost twice. Cause my ETS date was in October, cause I had signed up October of 2003. I signed a three year contract. So I was supposed to go home October of oh six. Like that was my ETS date. Our deployment started in January. So I was stop lost until the duration of like the end of the deployment and the night out process. We got extended. I got stopped lost again. They're like, hey, you're extended out another time. I'm like, God, like I'm going to get caught up, man. Like this is terrible. And, uh, so I was at the point like, man, I just need to get the fuck out of here. Like I just need to get home. Like you, I didn't have a plan. I had no clue what I was going to do. I just needed to get the fuck out of Ramadi.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Like that, that was my plan. And finally it came down, like we got the orders, like we're packing up all our shit. We're giving all the Humvees to the Iraqi army. So like, and kind of, and you get like insulted. You're like, fuck dude, I worked on that thing for a fucking year. Like that's my baby. Like that thing kept me alive for a year and now we're just going to hand it off and they're going to shit all over it.

• 1:29:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think it ain't going to run for two more weeks.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, with all the, with all the gear in it and everything. So we turned it in and then I remember like, starting to pack up the Conexes to go home to get through customs and I'm like, fuck man.

• 1:29:24Jocko Willink?

  At what point did you stop running operations? And how much more time did you have to pack?

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Uh, I believe we stopped running operations and I'm sure Dan could answer it. Like we got home on Valentine's Day in oh six. So I want to say like mid February. So we probably stopped running operations about two weeks before that, two to three weeks before that.

• 1:29:43Jocko Willink?

  So at that point you kind of knew, you kind of like thought you made it.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  It was the anticipation. It was like, hey, we're, it looks like we might be going home. Then we started to see like, the rumor mill is, is terrible. We, we started to see like the third ID, uh, Conexes showing up. So we're like, oh, fuck. Like it's happening. Like we're going to get the fuck out of here. And then we had our last mission. They said that was it. Start packing up your shit. And I was so fucking, I was like, I cannot wait to get the fuck out of the army. This is not for me. Like this is like, and maybe if I didn't deploy, my wife has asked me like, do you think you would have stayed in the military? And I told her if it wasn't for combat, maybe because it was such, it was a cool career. Like you, you're told what to do, when to do, how to do it. Like everything is very structured.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  You know, like what's going on, but I didn't realize like the combat just like, I can't do this again. And I

• 1:30:38Jocko Willink?

  And just so you know, that was not a normal tour, like at all.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Realizing that now I'm like, holy shit. Like that was, man, that was fucking brutal. Like the just brutality of man, like just, I don't know, like

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  it's hard to, to not think about it and like associate it.

• 1:30:56Jocko Willink?

  It's a weird, it's a weird, it's a weird dynamic for the SEAL teams. So when we were wrapping up deployment and we're turning it over with the guys from SEAL Team Five and I guess one different, very different dynamic. I suppose there's going to be some people in the army that you would know the people that are coming to replace you. You might know a few of them, but, but like in the SEAL teams, we know these guys, like they're, they're like our friends. And it was, you know, when I had Elliot and Joe, who were, you know, we were talking about Warfare, the movie, those are the two guys that were wounded on that operation. But just knowing these guys and knowing that what they're getting into and there's no way you can convey it to them. Like,

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  I literally told them, I was the task unit commander. I literally told them, I'm like, you guys are going to take casualties. And, you know, just talking to them, they're like, yeah, we were like, okay, you know, kind of almost didn't believe me. And, and I can see that. You know, and you're like, you got it. Like everything you can do, like pay attention to everything, everything matters. Like, and so when you're leaving these guys, it's like the most horrible feeling because

• 1:32:09Jocko Willink?

  It's almost like you know, and you know that they don't quite know yet. And it's, it's like, it just feels terrible. It'd be like, you know, if, if you're watching something bad happen and your kids are there and you're like, all right, I'm just gonna leave now. And there's nothing you can do to help them.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  And, and that's what it felt, it felt like, like we didn't want to leave. And then you also know, like, well, you can't stay. Um, it ain't happening. And there was a horrible feeling leaving those guys.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Cause you can only express it so much like, hey, cause there was like that, um, that phase, the transition phase where like, hey, this is, this is what we did. This is what worked for us. Pay attention to this radio frequencies, that like, you're trying to pass along information, but there's no, there's no way to prepare you for what, what was outside of those fucking wires in Ramadi.

• 1:33:00Jocko Willink?

  God, um, so you get on the bird and you're heading home.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  How's that?

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  I went from being Sergeant Black in Ramadi, Iraq in February, to Rob Black out of the military in April. So it was about a six week transition. Cause we got, we got back out processed. And then I was back home with my mom. Like it was, it was just like culture shock. Like there wasn't really a huge like transition period. And I remember just everything pissed me off.

• 1:33:38Jocko Willink?

  Did you have a plan?

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  No, not really. I knew that I wanted to go to school and I knew that I wanted to do something. And I had that EMT card from going to medic school. I was like, shit, I'll get a job on an ambulance. So I got hired at care ambulance, which was, uh, an ambulance service out in Orange in LA county. And I worked there for several years. And I worked with some guy. He's like, hey man, like, why don't you go to paramedic school? I was like, shit, that's actually pretty good idea. And then in paramedic school, guys are like, hey man, like, why don't you try the fire service? Oh, that kind of sounds kind of cool. And it just kind of happened. Like I was never that kid that like grew up like playing with fire trucks or anything. It just, and it ended up being like that, but my background was always like medical. So I got like into the dorky stuff, like the paramedicine stuff, which

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  I still love to this day. I, I helped teach at the community college when I can on days off, like, it, it's a lot of fun. Um, but it was a, it was a rough transition because I felt. I always walked around with like a chip on my shoulder like um like everyone owed me something or like people should respect me and I just remember someone told me one time like nobody owes you fucking anything like and it's true like say what you want like the world does not owe you shit and I don't care who you are, what you've been through, like the world does not owe you anything and nobody is gonna tip toe around you. And that was a hard life lesson for me to learn because I was like, yeah, I've been through combat, like I've been in the shit.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  Now that it's over, I can be like Billy Badass, you know what I mean? Like talk about it in the past tense when like several months ago, I was like, God, I just want to get out of here alive like, you know what I mean? Like it's it's just, it's wild like and it even seems like a fairy tale sometimes like talking about it. Just like how how everything like transpired and how everything like worked out. It's just, it's kind of hard to believe sometimes because even like when guys like I'll work with some guys, I'm like, you were in the army? Yeah, I was. Like, you're fucking weird. I'm like, yeah, I know, man.

• 1:35:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And again, it's not like you were just in the army. I mean, you were a freaking, you know, you awarded the combat medical badge. Like that means you were working on people in the shit under fire. That's what that means. And so what what's like, you know, you're talking about these feelings that you're having when you get home. You know, it's what we it's what we call PTSD, right? This is what we call it.

• 1:36:10Jocko Willink?

  You're working as a medic. What does your life look like and what does PTS do into your PTSD do into your brain? While you're, how old are you now? You're 24 years old, working as an EMT? You're 25 years old, working as an EMT?

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  I was 22 because I was 21. I was 21 during the deployment. I literally got out of the military in April and I got hired by Karen June. So within a matter of like five months, I went from, like I said, Sergeant Black to Rob Black. Driving an ambulance around LA and Orange County.

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  And you're rolling up on car accidents, rolling up on uh morbidly obese people that are freaking covered in their own shit.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Oh, every day.

• 1:36:47Jocko Willink?

  Just like, yeah. Heinous shit.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  Those are my favorite. I'm just kidding. The same people that call over and over and over again. Yeah, the EMS system is, it's wild and little did I know that that was compounding what it, what had already happened to me. Cause like, like I said, you're just reliving it in a different aspect.

• 1:37:06Jocko Willink?

  Over and over again.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Over and over and over again. And uh like I said, I would, I wish I would have gotten help because it came to a breaking point. Like eventually, like after I met my wife, I was drinking a lot. There'd be times where I would drink like every day constantly. And then there'd be times where I just wouldn't drink. And my mind would just like go crazy. But.

• 1:37:29Jocko Willink?

  What is your mind going crazy? What is that? Describe that to me.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  Trying to process like all this information. Like I had so many thoughts going on that I could never get anything organized. Like I would always get like hyper fixated on one thing. I'd get distracted and be like, okay, I need to do this. And, and I used alcohol to kind of like calm myself down. Cause that was all I knew. And you, you don't know what you don't know. And I was like, oh, a beer will just help me like, you know, calm down. And then I'd get excessive with it. And just like, like most veterans, you struggle with like some substance of use stuff and I'd abuse it and um just drink a lot until I'd blackout because that was the only thing that would help me sleep at night. Like I would

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  wake up, I would wake up during the day and I would beg for nighttime. I'd be like, man, I just can't wait to take my Benadryl so I can fucking just not be awake anymore. Cause I, I hated myself. Like I just did not, I, I would wake up, look at myself in the mirror and be like, I fucking hate you. Like who are you? Like it was just miserable because I just could not. I could not like organize my thoughts. I was just all over the place. I was miserable. I was toxic to other people. Like I would, I would talk down to other people. I thought that I was better than other people, like just things that were so unhealthy when I was the problem.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  It's like, this is a me problem, not a anyone else problem. And it was, it wasn't until like,

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  I ended up meeting my wife. Tale is old, this time we met on Tinder. True romance.

• 1:39:11Jocko Willink?

  Is Tinder like the pure hookup one? Carrie, you gotta tell me.

• 1:39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  That's like pure, like you're just going there kind of hookup?

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  Though, it maybe, it was, it was kind of the only game in town for a little while. And then you add all these other little services crop up and then Tinder became kind of the hookup one.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I talked to the young guys at work. There's all kinds of shit out there now. It's like fish in a barrel, man. Like all the young firemen, they're like, ah, it's, you live vicariously through them. It's wild. I couldn't even imagine like the dating scene nowadays.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  But we met, she's a horse girl. So if you ever love the rough touch of a woman, like date a horse girl. She was actually trailering down. She's competing in, in Del Mar. This week, so she's trailing.

• 1:39:56Jocko Willink?

  In what, Equestrian?

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So she does like hunter jumper, like so she jumps the fence. She's actually like super talented. She qualified for freaking Nationals.

• 1:40:02Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  In Las Vegas. She's a stud, man. Like if you saw.

• 1:40:07Jocko Willink?

  So how'd you manage to freaking pull that off, dude? You're drinking and freaking being depressed and acting crazy?

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  I know. Like what a disaster. She likes fix me ups. So that's, yeah.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  She loves hot messes. So and to top off, she's a freaking lawyer too. She's an attorney. Like full blown doctorate attorney. Like if you, I know I'm fighting out of my weight class. Like you'll see a picture of me and her and you'd be like, what, what is she doing with him? Like, what's wrong with her?

• 1:40:39Jocko Willink?

  So when you meet her, how old were you when you meet her?

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  I was. Uh, it was 10 years ago.

• 1:40:46Jocko Willink?

  So I'll be right now.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  Thirty. Uh, so I'm 40 now. I age like milk.

• 1:40:50Jocko Willink?

  So you're 30 years old.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I look terrible.

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Thirty years old, you're and at when you meet her, you still drinking, you're still feeling like.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but she was drinking too. Like we were a fireman and an attorney living in an apartment together with nothing to do. And, uh, we're just partying like, hey, where's, where's the next party at? Like, uh, going to San Pedro, hitting like the fish markets, just drinking all day. And then, uh, she calls me. It's actually a funny story. She sends me a text message of a positive pregnancy test. And I was driving on the eight freeway to get my physical for work. And I wrote back and if, if you know, like our dynamic of like our relationship, like she jokes a lot too. Like she would fit in very well with like police, fire, military, like that kind of like culture. And I wrote back, ha, ha, fuck you.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  And then like, I didn't hear anything and I'm on my way to the physical and she calls me. She's like, this is not a fucking joke. I'm pregnant.

• 1:41:45Jocko Willink?

  This is not a drill.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  I'm like, and I was like, there's, there's no way like, what are you talking about? You're pregnant. And I had to pull over and I puked on the side of the road. I went to my physical, my blood pressure was like 190 over something like, and the, the poor girl like in taking me like checking me in. She said, are you okay? Like you do not like look. Okay. I said, I know this is weird. I just found out that my girlfriend is pregnant and, uh, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. Like wild. So that, that was like the start of our, our relationship. And we have been together ever since.

• 1:42:24Jocko Willink?

  So when did you get married?

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  We got married in tw- when she was pregnant, when she got pregnant.

• 1:42:30Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then at what point, so you're a firefighter. Now you're married. It's, I think, uh, or you know, whatever you're married, you've got a kid on the way.

• 1:42:42Jocko Willink?

  It seems like you're going in a pretty good like from the outside, you're a firefighter. She's a lawyer. She's an equestrian master. You got a kid on the way. You're now married. Like you're kind of like if you on, if you paint that picture for a human being in Southern California, you're set for life. Like you're, you're, you're in the top, you know, one percent of life winners.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  Right. You would think, right?

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  That's what it looks like from the outside, but what's going on in the inside?

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  And that's what, that's where like the whole factor of like just struggling with like the PTSD kicks in. And it was the weirdest thing like, um, we get married. We have our daughter. I'm not drinking as much like I'll have some drinks like when the baby goes to bed, whatever. But then like the dark thoughts start creeping in like, I'm like, fuck man, like, why do I deserve this life? It's all about framing, right? So like what you're talking about, like damn, you have like the perfect life on paper. I'm like, yeah, but why do I deserve this? Isn't that terrible? Like, isn't that a terrible like view to have of the world? Like, why am I here now? And we made the decision, we're like, well, I mean, you know, she needs a, she needs someone to play with.

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  So we had another kid. We had, um, as a second daughter. So it all came to a head like, and it was never anything that was like lying in the sand. Like you're fucking up, like you're, you're doing this. It was all tiny little things like, hey, we don't do that anymore. Cause I'd leave for my shift. I'd come home and, um, it would always be like, oh no, like she doesn't eat that anymore. Okay. Well, it's been three days. Like I'm trying to catch up. I was always trying to play catch up. Like I was, like I was this part-time dad that was just filling in for a couple of days just to leave again. And she was at home working full-time as an attorney, taking care of two kids. Like she's just eating it in the face. Like just, she's doing everything like rock star.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  And then I come in and just screw everything up, but it's all up here in my head that I'm screwing it up. When in all actuality, I was just, I was present like, and I was there. Um, but I would get in my own head and be like, man, I'm such a failure. Like, I don't deserve this life. Like, like you said on paper, like, I have a wife, a house, a family. Like, we got the dogs, we got the horses, like, everything is great. But inside, I just, I lost it. And so it, it came down to like, one day. Like, I would get like, super infatuated with like, killing myself, like, just to be.

• 1:45:16Jocko Willink?

  And, and you guys had, um, there's, I, I remember Dan talked about this, and he's got in his book, but, uh, uh, Diaz and Rogers, you had two guys that were in that troupe with you guys in Ramadi.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  And they both killed themselves.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:32Jocko Willink?

  Diaz was in two thousand and eighteen, and Rogers was in, uh, twenty twenty one. Did you hear about Diaz at this time?

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  And when it happened, yeah.

• 1:45:42Jocko Willink?

  And did that, like, seem like, oh, there you go, like, this, this is, this is a possible.

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  And that's what I'm saying, is like, is like, you're, you're a product of your environment, and like, you surround yourself with it. Like, you hear, you hear the things like, oh, twenty two a day, like, guys are killing themselves all the time. And you feel like that's like your only, like, recourse or your only answer. And like, the self-loathing builds up, you get in your own head. Um, I was going to therapy, but not being honest, I'm on these antidepressants that are making me feel like, not only tired all the time, but they're making me have like, these lucid dreams that are like.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  Can these therapists, just, sorry for, can, can these therapists, like, do, do they not? Are they not able to be like, ask a couple of questions where you get trapped some way, where you kind of have to admit to it?

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wish.

• 1:46:28Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  Because like.

• 1:46:29Jocko Willink?

  You're just like, how you doing today? I'm fine.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I was not fucking fine. And I wasn't honest. Um, and feel free to interrupt me, it's like, it's literally your show. Like, that's what, that's what it says, you know what I mean?

• 1:46:44Speaker 01

  Um, but it, it was the strangest thing. Like we went to the Orange County Fair in 2019 and it was around this time, like July of 2019. And all I did was like, I pulled one of the girls out of the car seat and I put her in the wrong side. Like, cause they have like their designated sides. And I'm like, oh crap, I did that wrong. And then all day I just got in my own head like, shit, man, like I can't do anything right. Like, why can I not do anything right? And we had like the picture perfect day at the OC fair, like just had a great time. Uh, good family day stuff, pictures from it. Like it was incredible. And then all of a sudden, like something in my brain fucking switched and,

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  and I know that like my daughters will hear this one day, but like, I remember looking at them at the rear view mirror and,

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  and I said, the answer is like, everyone would be so much happier if I was gone. Like, because then there wouldn't be these problems of me like choosing the wrong seed or like, you know, I, I got them like the wrong bottle or I got them the wrong food. All these things that just seem so like miniscule, like in the totality that is life, but like, in my own head, I was like totally screwing everything up. I still remember looking at them like in the car seats. Cause we have like the backwards facing mirrors and like looking at them and be like, damn, they're going to be so happy when I'm gone. And then I got this like, this period of like elation, because I finally had the answer. I was like, oh, I'm going to fucking kill myself. And I was, even my wife was like, God, you've been in such a good mood lately. Like you're so like delightful to be around.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  And I'm like, yeah, because you don't know what's coming. Like I'm going to fucking off myself. And, and my wife knows everything. I've been very, very open about everything. And if anyone's listening to this and like you're having these thoughts too, like reach out, please, because I promise you it gets better. Like it is your own brain and it's not that there's something wrong with you. It's just your brain trying to understand what happened and make sense of what you're going through and how to get past it. It's just simply an understanding thing and you can be taught. And walk through delicately through clinician work and be guided through this and there is

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  hope and you do matter and do not, please do not kill yourself.

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  So what, what made you, okay, did you come up with a plan? Were you like, okay, tomorrow night?

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was, I had a, I have a 1911 in my room and like, uh, we would get the girls down for bed. Like my wife would be in bed. She'd go to bed early because she would always have to wake up super early for work. She's like you wakes up at like four o'clock in the morning and just hits it. And like, there would be nights where I'd like go in there and I would like check the closet and I'd just like hold, hold the pistol and she'd be like asleep in the bed and just feeling the weight of it was like empowering. And then I'd like hold the clip in another hand. I'm like, yeah, I'm about to fucking rock this through my brain.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Like it was, it was dark, but then when you're, when you're in that state, it sounded like a good idea. Like it sounded like, hey, do you want to come on the Jocko podcast? Like, hey, yeah, that sounds cool and healthy. Like it made sense to me. Like my brain was wired. Like this is the answer and this is going to fix everything. And this is how I'm going to get out of this situation. Like it sounded like, like you and me talking right now. Like it sounded like totally normal and healthy. Like it is terrifying. Like one thing about the human brain is it can get rewired and just become a nightmare. And then I would get on my phone and watch videos of like, uh, dude's getting blown up in Iraq again. I was taking myself back there, like watching those

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  old sniper videos of like the Musa Dean, like all, like all the stuff that I'm sure you've seen, like from the other side, like, and just got like, like I said, like infatuated with it and it was terrifying. So it finally came to a head.

• 1:50:43Speaker 01

  And I ended up needing treatment.

• 1:50:46Jocko Willink?

  How did you like, what was the, the, the turning point where you said, you know what? Instead of me freaking killing myself, I'm gonna, who'd you talk to? Did you talk to your wife or what'd you do?

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  No, I took, I took a bunch of gabapentin. I took a bunch of Zoloft.

• 1:51:04Jocko Willink?

  What's gabapentin?

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  It's used for several different things. My doctor prescribed it for like anxiety. So I took a bunch of it to like numb myself. I drank a ton of vodka and I was gonna, I was gonna do it then, but I got so like, so jacked up, I couldn't go through with it.

• 1:51:23Jocko Willink?

  And then you.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  So I ended up getting transported to the hospital.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  And then in there, that's when my wife said like, you, you need help.

• 1:51:34Jocko Willink?

  Got it. So thankfully you got to freaking, you got, you blacked out, you passed out. And then your wife, you need to go to the hospital. She takes you to the hospital and she's like, yo, you need some freaking help.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Oh, I went in an ambulance, like.

• 1:51:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh shit.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  It was like the real deal.

• 1:51:52Jocko Willink?

  So, so what is it? So what is the process now? What, so what happened after that? So I think you say you went to Utah for treatment?

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I ended up going to Utah for.

• 1:52:03Jocko Willink?

  Why Utah? Like you're in California. Why is there some special program out there or something?

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there was, it's a place called Deer Hollow. So I will say one thing, like the, the fire service in a hole is kind of made like the whole mental thing, mental health thing, like kind of not taboo anymore. Like we're, we're openly talking about it. And my department specifically, like it, kudos to them. And I'm not trying to like blow rainbows up their skirt or anything, but like the notifications were made that like, I had this incident and.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  They said, okay, send him to wherever he needs to get help and we'll deal with everything later. Like they put me off on leave. Um, the proper notifications were made and um, I got uh, connected to this place in Utah that could help me.

• 1:52:53Jocko Willink?

  Is there something specific about that place?

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  They, they help. Yeah, they help veterans fire EMS. Like I got up there and they had like patches from all over the country, like with police, fire, EMS, like it just helps a bunch of like that community. And I got there, I'm like, what am I doing here? Like, I'm gonna lose my family. I remember getting on the plane, like, what have I done? I've just screwed up my life. Like, how am I ever gonna be able to like, face my wife again, face my kids again? Like, it, lots of shame and shame is just like something that's extremely toxic. It's out there in the ether, like, uh, it was very, very like embarrassing.

• 1:53:31Jocko Willink?

  Did your wife know about like the suicidal thoughts? Or did she just think you were just an alcoholic, you were being an idiot?

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. She, she just thought I had a fucking problem.

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. And so now when you get up there, you check into this place, like what, you know, this process, and I think you said it was education and rewiring of the brain, but like, how do they do that? What does that sound like? What are they talking about? What does your day sound, look like?

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  So initially it was, uh, you'd wake up, do breakfast and you're all living together. And everyone has like different stories. So you'd wake up, you'd do your counseling sessions, your therapy sessions, and it was, have you heard of EMDR?

• 1:54:10Jocko Willink?

  Is that the flashing red lights or is it the magnets?

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Uh, I believe what it's a, I forget exactly what it stands for, but it's like a kind of like hypnotizing therapy where they wave your fingers in front of your face and it's for like rapid eye movement and it's supposed to like help you recall, like events. And so up there.

• 1:54:29Jocko Willink?

  I guess it was neither. I said flashing red lights or magnets. I've, I've had a bunch of friends go to all different kinds of treatments. So I thought EMDR was one of those.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it, and it sounds like a bunch of like, my wife calls it hocus pocus. Um, she, she.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  She's like, if it works for you, that's great. But like, that's like, not for me. But they dug up a lot of stuff like from my childhood that affected me that that was like the problem. So like, the Iraq stuff was just like insult to injury. It was like re re breaking an arm. So it was like, you need help from like your childhood memories. So then it went from like, like Iraq was like, not even what they were focused on whatsoever. But living in the community, they're watching everything about you and and how you operate.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  And they were like, yeah, your your childhood was screwed up. Like you have serious abandonment issues. And like, that's why you joke so much. That's why you try and make everyone laugh because you're scared that everyone's gonna leave you. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, it it's crazy what they did in that environment, but you're constantly around counselors for 24 seven, 365, one on one counseling, talking to other other members there. But it also gives you the time to like decompress and be like, what am I doing? They they invited my wife up there. So she had my mother in law and father in law watch the kids. She flew up to Utah. And I didn't know that they were planning this. I was like, yeah, me and my wife were fighting like, obviously.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  We went up there and we did like a skit. And it was like, okay, like, let's pretend like you two are in like a lover's quarrel. And like, it started with a skit and it ended up with like,

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  me telling, I forget like how it transpired. And she's like, well, what the hell? Like, why can't you just deal with your problems? I said, what the fuck do you want me to say? Do you want me to tell you that like, for the past several years, I've wanted to blow my fucking brains out? Like, is that what you want from me? Like, and it turned into like this scenario to her, like, leaving and crying. And we sat outside on like the lawn. I'm like, look, I'm fuck, I am so fucking sorry that I'm like this. Like, you don't deserve this. Like you, as a person, do not deserve this. Like, you don't deserve to be put through this. Like, we have children together. You deserve to be happy and I'm not pulling my weight as a partner. Like, I feel terrible because I'm just, I'm not pulling my weight for you.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  She, I don't know why she stuck through with me, but she did say, she's like, if you continue your shit, like if you don't get help and you're not honest with therapists, like you will, like, we're gonna be gone. Like, I'm not gonna have you around our kids. Because I was, it was just so fucking bad. But like that, that thirty days up in Utah kinda like helped me decompress, constantly being around the therapists. That's when like the cat was out of the bag. I'm like, okay, I'm fucking suicidal. Like, they're like, okay, well, like, what makes you think about that? So like what you were speaking about earlier, like, why don't therapists like trap you? Well, now the secret was out. Like, this guy gets on these like ragers where he just drinks until he's so numb that

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  he doesn't think about his problems. And then he wants to kill himself. So they already knew the path I was going down. So like my guard was down. Like, they already knew how to attack me. And they just broke it down like piece by piece by piece over the thirty days. And my wife came up, it was, it was horrible. Like, just watching her go through that, like, and knowing that she stuck with me. Like, I don't, I could never, I could never repay her for that. Like, being the mother of my kids and then going through that bullshit? And like, just me being a mess? Why? Just because I have like fucking daddy issues from

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  when I was a kid? That got like perpetuated by like shit that happened in Iraq? And then I was feeling all sorry for myself? And like, none of the shit that happened to me, if I would have been an adult about it and actually took it head on and said, I have these problems, this is a me problem, and I need to fix it, I would have never gotten to this point. But I also think if I never got to this point, I wouldn't have the life that I have. Like, now we had our son, our marriage is great, she's riding horses, like, I do not drink anymore. I take my medicine as prescribed. I'm honest with my, my doctors. Like, hey, yeah, I'm having some fucking down days. Like, okay, well, like, now it-

• 1:59:13Speaker 01

  It's kind of funny because like now they're like, well, are you thinking about, you know? And I'm like, no, I'm not like, like they're trying to defuse a bomb. Like we were, we went to go see that warfare movie. My wife is like, are you sure? Yeah, I'm ready because I can handle things. I just handle everything upfront now.

• 1:59:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. A long time ago, I had it from my friend Peter A T on the podcast and he was a ER doctor in Baltimore. In like when Baltimore was just like the worst area. And one thing that he said was that when families would like have someone get shot, right? If the family, if the family was like a, a, a little bit of a solid family, losing someone from their family would make them tighter. But if the family was like, had little fractures in it, then having someone in the family get killed would make the family like explode. And I thought that was a very close correlation to like, kind of what you're saying, which is

• 2:00:17Jocko Willink?

  people that you're in the military, you're going through something or you're a firefighter, you're a police officer, or you're just going through life. And you have something in your past that's like a little crack, right? Like a little crack you had with your dad leaving and you don't know what the hell is going on. You're eight years old. You have a little crack and when you get put into the fire of, of combat, it's like all of a sudden that crack just opens up, right? And gets worse. And then it sounds like you not like just trying to pretend that the crack's not there and just act like it's not there and just kind of turn your head to it. It just gets worse and worse and worse as opposed to going, oh, there's a freaking crack here. Yeah, I see it. It's getting worse. I need to get it together. I need to put some cement in there. I need to freaking fill it in

• 2:01:02Jocko Willink?

  and, and, and make it solid again. And I think that's a, a huge piece of it. And just the way you're saying this stuff, like being able to reframe the way you look at things, like, isn't it crazy?

• 2:01:17Jocko Willink?

  To think the way you're, the way your thought process was, hey, I've got a beautiful wife and two kids and a great job and I don't deserve this.

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:30Jocko Willink?

  Because my friends that didn't come home, they should be here instead of me. As opposed to, hey, I've got a great job, a great wife, I got two kids, now three kids. I'm doing my best to earn the fact that I got to come home and I hope my guys are proud of me. Like that, those are two just totally opposing frames that you can put on the world that you're in. And do you think that, I guess this is my question. How do you grab control of that way, that, that, that frame that you're going to put on things? Does somebody external have to help you with that? Like, how, how do you make that happen?

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  I think the factor for me was, um, like the external factor, like I had that event happen. I wish from the beginning, I would have, because I always felt like it would have been like an impediment on my wife and the kids. Like, hey, I need to go get treatment. And she would have said, what, you need to leave for 30 days? Why do you get a 30 day vacation? And it, it was just, I always, I didn't want to ask for anything. Like, I don't like being in the way of anything. I don't like being a problem for anyone. Like, one of my biggest, like, flaws is I hate asking for help. I even noticed that, like, in my day, like, even in my job, like, if there's something like dirty hose or something that I need help with, or like getting paid out, I hate inconveniencing people. And that's a me problem.

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  Because normally people would want to help, like, hey, man, like, can you help me go? Like, it'll go a lot faster if you help me, like, come clean this hose or whatever. And, uh, I just didn't want to be an inconvenience. I didn't want to get in anyone's way. And I think, like, what you're saying, framing perspective, it, it's 100% that. Because it's not that I don't deserve the life that, that I have. I do deserve it. It's just, it's been a bumpy road to get here, man. And it's, I wish I was honest with myself before, but I don't know if I would be here unless that happened. And I know that's very, like, contradictory and, like, all over the place, but, but it's true. It, it took me having a mental breakdown, wanting to end my own life.

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  To get down to the foundation to like rebuild the home. You know what I mean? And it and it's true, like families that are that are like tight knit, like now with me and my wife, it's like, okay, well, we can handle, you know, whatever, like the kids are getting home, sent home for sick from school. It's like, okay, like, cool. We can deal with that. It's actually like made us stronger, but it's just the open and honest portion of it.

• 2:04:07Jocko Willink?

  You you talked about kind of like having bad days. First of all, what is a bad day? And second of all, what's your, what's your immediate action drill? Like, what's your contingency plan? When something like that happens?

• 2:04:19Speaker 01

  So like normally, like a bad day to me would be like, I just get overstimulated, especially with like three kids at home. Like just shit everywhere. Thing is, things are just thrown all over the place. Something's broken like I just get overstimulated and out of nowhere, I'll just get these like bouts of depression. To where I'm just sad for no reason, right? And it happened to me like several weeks ago. My wife's like, well, what's wrong? I'm like, I don't know. I'm just fucking sad. Like I just, I don't feel good. And it just comes out of nowhere. It comes in waves, but and it's more like the hocus pocus, like I found meditating when I heard about like meditation and like listening to like certain sounds.

• 2:04:59Speaker 01

  At first I was like, ah, this is kind of like lame. And then I was guided through it by someone who actually does meditation and does like the therapy for meditation. And on Amazon Music, they actually have like America, Native American flutes. So that's like what I throw on. If you search Native American flutes, I turn that on, I do meditation, I start doing grounding, like, okay, I'm laying in, usually I go in my room. I'm laying in my bed. I can feel my blanket. I can feel my pillow. I know walls are around me. I know I'm safe. Why am I having these thoughts? And are they true? The biggest thing is like, are they true? So when things would happen like with the kids, be like, man, I'm fucking worthless. Like, am I truly worthless?

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  And it's all about framing. It's like, no, I'm not truly worthless because I have a lot to offer, a lot to give. And you just start like breaking down those statements in your head like I'm worthless. I'm a piece of shit like I don't deserve to live. And you just kind of like take those head on and be like, all right, well, no, I, I'm not worthless because I do have a lot to give. I, I have a purpose. I do deserve to be here. I've worked hard to be here. And then you just kind of like live in the moment and I try and clear my brain from everything and just think about nothing. And the for, for me personally, everyone's going to be different. The grounding and the listening to like the Native American flutes or like the yoga music has helped a ton.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  But just trying to prove that everything that I think is wrong, because as soon as you start poking holes in the dam, like eventually it'll open back up.

• 2:06:37Jocko Willink?

  And just FYI, man, like I, I have four kids, but in my military career, I had three and then had four, the fourth one towards the end. But like, bro, you just got to deal with like,

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:06:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, there's just, oh, there's applesauce all over the, you know, computer keyboard. Awesome. Uh, there's, you know, uh, a shitty diaper that's on my pillow. Uh, good to go. Like, like it's just, that's just the way it is.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  No, it's, it's just wild. And I would get so worked up for the longest time, like trying to have a clean house. It's not going to happen. Like you're just, you're raking sand.

• 2:07:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  There's just shit every, it's a, it's chaos. And I'm trying to embrace it because everyone says like, dude, you're going to miss it. Once it's gone, like the little feet running down the hallway, like the like you will miss those days and you're going to miss having the house like just a disaster. So I try and like embrace it, like when I feel myself getting like worked up or like super sad. I just sit there and like, sit around everyone and be like, look, like this is chaos, but, but we're in it right now.

• 2:07:43Jocko Willink?

  The, the other thing is, is like, when you say, um, you know, you get sad, right? Or I guess you're using the word depressed.

• 2:07:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:55Jocko Willink?

  For me, it took me a little while to like recognize and, and start telling people.

• 2:08:02Jocko Willink?

  That that's fine. Like, you know, um, oh, you know, you lost some of your friends in combat and you get sad about it sometimes. Well, yeah, of course you do. Like, that's totally normal and totally fine. And, you know, it it might be something that you see or something that reminds you or something that, you know, good or bad, something good happens and you start thinking, well, why do I, why do I get this? Like, and that's, it's just like, that's okay. That's just normal. It's part of being a human being, you know? I think that is a, I think that's one thing where people can get a little bit sidetracked is they think, wow, you know, I, I was in combat

• 2:08:44Jocko Willink?

  10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago. Why am I sad right now that this happened to this guy?

• 2:08:52Jocko Willink?

  There must be something wrong with me. It's like, no, actually, there's nothing wrong with you. There's not. Actually, you're just sad because you lost your friend and it sucks. And you're thinking about him and that's the way life is.

• 2:09:04Speaker 01

  And so it's a good thing. Yeah. You're remembering them like, hey, man, at least they're being thought about. And you could carry on their memory too. Like, it doesn't have to, like, sometimes you just wake up, you're sad, like you were saying, and it's fine. You're a human being. Sometimes there isn't always necessarily a reason, like you just subconsciously, like, like I've said, like, sometimes I just get down and that's fine. But like, definitely I'm more self-aware than I used to be because that depression would turn into self-loathing, like, because I'd be like, oh, I'm sad. I'm such a pile of shit that I can't even be happy. Like, see, and then it would just spiral. It's, I'm telling you, man, like, I was like, it was bad because I would just believe everything in my head that I told myself.

• 2:09:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I like that. I like that little question you ask yourself. Uh, is it true? That seems like a, it's like, like a little, a little, seems like it's not that big of a deal, but actually, if you start pulling the thread on that, is it true?

• 2:09:59Speaker 01

  Start unwinding the ball of yarn.

• 2:10:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, actually, that's not true. I'm not a piece of shit.

• 2:10:04Speaker 01

  Thank you, therapy.

• 2:10:07Speaker 01

  They taught me that like is what you're saying true?

• 2:10:11Speaker 01

  I don't know. They're like, no, it's not. So every time you have a thought, like, is it true? Like, am I really worthless? No, you're not. It's not true. You just have to make sure that anything that is in your head, like, it's not reality. And you still go see a therapist on a regular basis? How often? Right now, it's like once every three months because everything's like kind of under control. Like that whole event happened in August of 19. So like now I've gotten, I'm very open about everything. Like I said, I'm an open book. Like if anyone needs to like reach out, like hit me up on Instagram or whatever, like I'll, I'll put my like Instagram ID, whatever. If I'm an open book, man, like I think this stuff is very important.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  We need to crush the taboo of like, like mental health is weakness because it definitely isn't. Because I'm not kidding. Like when I came out and I went back to work and that was another thing was like going back to work. I'm like, how am I going to be around these firemen? After they know that I've just had like a mental breakdown and I had to go to happy camp for 30 days. Like how, how am I even going to show my face? But I'm not kidding. Like, say what you want about like going over, going and getting therapy. I've had more people come up to me and like, hey, man, when did you know it was time? Cause I'm having these thoughts too. And that's what's important is that we start the conversation around it. You know what I mean?

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  Like, hey, man, like I'm sad. Fuck, man, I get sad too. You get like common humanity between two people, especially two people that have like the same, the same life experiences. Like you and I were both in Ramadi. It's like, hey, it's okay that we both get fucking sad. It's normal. Like what we went through was hell. When you feel like you have someone else that has also been. Through that with you, it builds a community and for veterans, fire, police, EMS, like it's okay. Like it's okay to have some bad days, some down days to have like terrible thoughts. Cause what we do is, is you see the worst of the worst. And I just hope we break

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  that stigma of like going and getting help like eventually. And I, and I truly believe that we're getting there, seeing like the younger generation of like firefighters and paramedics. It seems like they're more open to it. And hopefully we will get there. And, and I will say like, my department was incredible. Like when I went through my stuff and it's only gotten better. It, we're more self-aware. They're more open to it. There's more programs out there. They're very, instead of reactive proactive, which is good. And that it seems to be the case with departments all around the nation. And we hope it keeps going that way.

• 2:12:56Jocko Willink?

  So firefighting, you say you work 72 hours on?

• 2:13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:01Jocko Willink?

  And, and then four days off, something along those lines?

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  It depends on if you have vacation or we'll have like a drop week. So it'll only be 48 days on.

• 2:13:10Jocko Willink?

  So 72 hours on, straight, and then you only get four days off? Like that's a lot of work in one month. Do you do that? That's the schedule all the time? There's no time where it's more than four days?

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  And it rotates. Oh, well, there's like when the fires pop off, like there's a thing called the staffing pattern, which you'll get stuck on duty for, for resources. The only thing that'll get you home is, is if you have what's called like annual vacation, like we call it AAV. So you'll get sent home if you have vacation, but other than that, it's just a hold all. But there, there it's like when all the fires were popping off and they need resources.

• 2:13:46Jocko Willink?

  Do you get overtime?

• 2:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:48Jocko Willink?

  So you work 40 hours straight and then the whatever the other 32 hours you're getting overtime? Pay?

• 2:13:55Speaker 01

  The-

• 2:13:55Jocko Willink?

  Or no?

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

  Our pay is all combined together. So it's all calculated together. And it's all like through our bargaining unit and like through the union. So our, we have planned overtime. So anything past that is time and a half. So the money's good, but like we're, we're starting to see like the generation that, that wants to go home. They want to like have families and get time off.

• 2:14:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  So it's good. And like I said, our department, it's hopefully going in the right direction with like dropping another day and going to forty eight on and then ninety six off or whatever the, the pattern will be, whatever it, whatever it turns out to be, it's, it's a move in the right direction because they've noticed that, that it's hard on the firefighters. And I know everyone's like, oh yeah, poor firefighters, but like it's.

• 2:14:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't know. Three days all the time, over and over again. That's, that seems like a lot to me.

• 2:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it can be, but it's a lot of fun. I love it.

• 2:14:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:50Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 2:14:51Jocko Willink?

  Now, how do you like compartmentalize, uh, what you're doing at work? You're seeing people that are, you know, ODing, getting hit by cars, uh, suffering all these medical problems. Plus fires and the whole nine yards. Do you have some kind of a protocol for like, uh, separating what you're doing at work and not dragging that home with you?

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  Um, usually on my first day home, I'll like go sleep. Usually if I'm tired, it like, it gets worse. It can like perpetuate things. So my wife has noticed it like, hey, go take a nap. Like you're tired. You need to go sleep. And like I said, I'm just more open about how I'm feeling. Like I'll say like, hey, like I feel like really angry right now. Like I just feel like amped up. She'll tell me like, go for a run, go out, go do something like, I'm just, I'm more open with like how I'm feeling. When I was before, I felt like it was a problem.

• 2:15:44Jocko Willink?

  Do you get a chance to PT when you're doing seventy two hours on?

• 2:15:47Speaker 01

  So one hour every day is dedicated to PT. So we'll like go to the gym. We have a gym at the stations. We, uh, some guys will go like play basketball, just have fun with it.

• 2:15:57Jocko Willink?

  What, but if you get a call, obviously.

• 2:15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, then you gotta go. And obviously like mission dependent. Like if there's a big fire that breaks out.

• 2:16:04Jocko Willink?

  And then how much sleep do you get usually, generally speaking, on a seventy two hour, uh, whatever cycle? How much sleep do you think you get?

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  There's some shifts where like it's super quiet at night, like where we're not getting that many calls. And then there's just some shifts where it's like. Pound town.

• 2:16:20Jocko Willink?

  So it's a little bit of luck of the draw, like Friday, Saturday.

• 2:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like there's times where like Tuesday, it'll be like a Tuesday, I'll be like, what is happening? Like there's, there is no rhyme or reason. And like I said, I work in the city of Moreno Valley, like that place is always busy and I love it. So it's, it's just luck of the draw. Cause you could go work at a busy house and run like, I remember why my wife came out and she rode out with us on the engine and we didn't run a call till four o'clock. And she was like, I thought this place was busy and I'm like, it is like typically, but of course she's there. We don't run any calls, but typically you just, you get really good at naps. It's like being in the military, I could sleep anywhere, like at Warped Tour, I slept next to a fence.

• 2:17:04Speaker 01

  I slept on a tree, like you get really good at taking naps, so.

• 2:17:09Jocko Willink?

  And what advice do you have for kids that want to go and be firefighters? What's a good, what's a good stepping stones? How should they make that happen?

• 2:17:16Speaker 01

  Right now is a great time. Um, because just like everywhere, like in the workforce, they're just having a hard time like finding people.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  You could look at like your local fire departments, the explorer program is great. If you're between the ages of 14 and they say 21. If you're above the age of 18, try and get into like a reserve program. But looking at your local community college, seeing if they offer any fire science classes, go to your local fire department. Be like, hey man, I'm interested in being a firefighter. Like I said, hit me up on Instagram, I'll send you the websites, uh, whatever information you guys need. But now is a great time to try and get a job as a fireman. Cause, cause we've hit this like precipice of like the seasoned firefighter is kind of like a dying breed, like there, there used to be this culture of like guys would work as a fireman,

• 2:18:09Speaker 01

  like just a straight fireman for years and years and years. And it was always respected and now it's, the population has grown so much. And the departments are getting so big that guys are promoting a little faster. So we're having this like, in the interim, we're just having like a lot of movement and a lot of structure. And it's good because we're growing, but right now it's kind of like a dying breed, like I've, uh, So my department, I worked on an engine for several years and then I got to, you know, like the big ladder truck with like the driver in the front and like the driver in the back. I finally made it to like the driver in the back. Well, my fireman, Sean Towser, uh, he,

• 2:18:49Speaker 01

  he's like, if you took a computer and you built a fireman, like that was my partner. And then I'm this goofball paramedic that like comes along and be like, hey, I'm on the fire truck now. And it was, it was like being in Iraq, man, like trying to learn the scouts jobs and like trying to follow along. I, I never realized how bad I wasn't my job until you're with someone that is like a master of the craft. And then I was with guys like Dallas Smith, uh, Matt Bryant, he's a big jujitsu guy too. So, uh, my captain that I worked with, he's a blue belt. He's kind of a big deal. Heck yeah. Loves, loves your show too. So he's gonna love the shout out. Um,

• 2:19:32Jocko Willink?

  And you were what firefighter of the year?

• 2:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:35Jocko Willink?

  And how'd you, how'd you manage to get firefighter?

• 2:19:37Speaker 01

  Twenty, twenty two. Uh, they ran out of people. So they, they ran out of people to vote for. Um, definitely wasn't based on looks. That's for sure. Uh, yeah. Um, I, I like to be organized. So I like to come up with like trainings and, and things that I kind of put myself out there. I'm on like a training cadre with like the new hire firefighters. And I think your peers just slowly noticed that kind of thing and they took a vote and luckily I won it.

• 2:20:07Jocko Willink?

  And then you're also teaching at a community college? And you're teaching what firefighting?

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  Paramedics. So I help teach, I'm an adjunct faculty and then I help teach, uh, new paramedics and EMTs wherever I can feel. I don't do that as often as I would like, uh, but I go in there whenever I can. I love it because it like rejuvenates me to back when I went to paramedic school and how much I loved it. Like that was probably one of the best years of my life being And seeing those kids and like how excited they are and like all the questions that they have. They're like, well, what happens when you do this? And you're like, like, it's cool. Like it like it's it's fun. And just seeing like the new generation like coming up. I will say like the younger generation, they're so technologically advanced and so smart and quick with recall.

• 2:20:55Speaker 01

  Like you could sit these students down and be like, tell me everything you know about magnesium. Tell me everything you know about calcium chloride. Bam bam bam. They're like smoking them like out of the water. But if you sit them down in front of a Vietnam veteran and they have to do this, like talk to like total collapse. They don't have the interpersonal skills because to no fault of their own, they grew up with cell phones and texting. They don't, they don't have the element of human connection that like our generation had. You can, you can see that. Oh, 100% there. They blow us out of the water with smarts, but it's the hard part is applying like what they know in the book.

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  And being so analytical into real life, like or knowing when like someone's gaming you, like if someone's trying to like pull one over on you. Just like the street smarts of it, like, you know what I mean? If someone's being a smart ass and like not answering your questions, like that's where I see students like struggle. So we'll take paramedic students and it's like, dude, like you have the knowledge. It's just applying it. But I love, I love teaching because it reminds me of when I was like that too. Like learning like, oh, man, I can't wait to get out there. That excitement and that drive. Because like if we could just harness like the younger generation of like paramedics and firefighters, because they're excited.

• 2:22:18Speaker 01

  They just need direction and it's, it's just helping them and guiding that enthusiasm. And especially with like the fire department, we've, I hope we implement like a search culture. And what I mean by that is victim rescue first, like a victim rescue first mentality. So over the years, like especially with like the, the economy and like how people are having trouble finding employees. Like the fire department is no stranger to that as well. Like we're like collateral. Like we're having trouble finding people too. And like I said, like the dying breed is still the dying breed of like strong career firemen. So we're getting like these newer guys.

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  And in the fire department, we've kind of taken like a defensive posture like to where we're quick to pull the trigger on like, all right, let's just go defensive. Like, let's not like really risk a lot. But so by implementing a search culture, just aggressive search tactics when we pull up first on scene to a structure fire, like that should be our first thought. And that's what I'm trying to like, push to this younger generation. And I love it because it's out there. They just need the guidance and like the backing from like, they need like the support from it and understanding it.

• 2:23:37Jocko Willink?

  So when you show up to a fire and your first instinct in your should be like, we need to make sure there's no one in there.

• 2:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's just make sure. Like, don't be so quick to pull the trigger like, ah, let's just go defensive. Like, hey, let's get in there and do an aggressive freaking search. Like, let's do victim search right now.

• 2:23:55Jocko Willink?

  And some of that judgment's based on what the structure is, right? It's nighttime and it's in an industrial area. You're like, yeah, there's probably no one in there. But you like, no, we gotta search it anyways.

• 2:24:05Speaker 01

  It's all knowledge, skills, ability. Like, if you've been there, done that before, you know the layout of the land, like, hey, this is in my first due, like, I know this building super well. The the homeless population usually hangs out like back here. Let's go search. Like, let's get this search mentality back. So the younger generation loves it. We just need to guide them in that direction. And that's what I hope for. Like, I get excited about it, man. Because I love it. Like, that's the best job in the world was being on a truck company and like getting off and doing a search, like a nice, like, not nice, but like, a good aggressive search and just having an aggressive fire culture, even with paramedicine, like, let's be aggressive with it. Like, let's make a difference with these patients. Like, it is the worst day of their life. That's why they called 911. Let's give them the treatment that

• 2:24:50Speaker 01

  they deserve. Let's give them the medicine. Like, let's be aggressive as a culture. So it's just hoping to instill that because you, I hope to leave the fire service better than I found it. And I've luckily, I found out that I love teaching as well. Do I have all the answers? Absolutely not. But I'm pretty good at finding them out. And like no, by no means am I like a martyr or am I speaking on behalf of like all fire departments or anyone at all. This is just my personal opinion and what I see and what I hope for. So I hope no one's like, hey, man, what's this guy talking about? It's, this is just what I see and that's my hopes and purely just my personal opinion.

• 2:25:30Jocko Willink?

  No, it's awesome.

• 2:25:31Speaker 01

  I want to be aggressive.

• 2:25:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's I got friends in the fire department and I've worked with fire departments all over the country, really. And my company, Echelon Front, goes and works with fire departments and love seeing that attitude of like, we're gonna fight the fires, we're gonna make things happen. And that's, that's badass. And it's

• 2:25:51Speaker 01

  Break doors down, get a good interior attack going, get horizontal ventilation going. Like, let's rock this thing. Let's put this thing out. Like, let's not just let it burn to the ground. Like, let's get in there, guys. Talk on the radio, coordinate this thing and put it to bed.

• 2:26:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And they did, the firefighters, the San Diego firefighters saved my gym, you know, the building. I mean, it got damaged, a lot of damage, but they were, they fought that fire. I mean, they went inside, they had guys on the roof, they had to do, what'd you call it? Vertical?

• 2:26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like horizontal ventilation. That's when they're on the roof.

• 2:26:23Jocko Willink?

  They cut big holes in the roof to get the heat out of there so that the firefighters could get close inside. Like, they did, they did a full debrief with me, walked me through the whole thing, how they fought it.

• 2:26:31Speaker 01

  You're turning me on.

• 2:26:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was pretty freaking legit.

• 2:26:35Speaker 01

  Just some roof ops.

• 2:26:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, dude, they would have, they, it's all repaired now, but I mean, there was, they were up there with the chainsaw, sawing big holes through it all. And they were in communications because the guys that were in the fire, they couldn't get close enough because it was too hot. So they'd have called those guys, like, more holes, get more of the heat out of there. And they were able to save the building.

• 2:26:54Speaker 01

  Heck, yeah. Yeah, a coordinated attack. Like, so that's what we're talking about. Get holes in the roof, get lines in, coordinated attack, get it over with.

• 2:27:02Jocko Willink?

  You could see when they took me in for the debrief, you could see where they had, where they were running their fingers along the wall. Like, there was a big mirrors in the locker room. And you could see there's soot all over there. You could see where they were following the wall. Because there was, they couldn't see shit in there because it was too smoking.

• 2:27:16Speaker 01

  Oh, heck no. So that, that's what's scary is like going into them, like, your visibility's like, super low. So you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. I love it, man.

• 2:27:25Jocko Willink?

  I did.

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  That's great to hear.

• 2:27:26Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't do it, but they have like the uh some kind of, I don't know what they'd call it, but it's like a maze.

• 2:27:32Speaker 01

  Oh, confidence box.

• 2:27:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:34Speaker 01

  So yeah, where you get they get.

• 2:27:35Jocko Willink?

  Crawling through there and there's smoke in there.

• 2:27:37Speaker 01

  Trapped on purpose. Like we do it. We'll like tie stuff around like their breather, like their bottle, like to get them trapped. Cause it's all about, it's all about like what we've been talking about. Like I'm okay. Like I'm okay. I just need to like back up, pull it off my bottle and like get through this.

• 2:27:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Have you ever seen one of those things, Kerry? Negative. It looks like, uh, you know, like a little rat maze, but it goes up and down and like little tiny holes you gotta get through and they fill it with smoke. You could see it's not, it's not a, not, not one for a claustrophobic dude. Like it's.

• 2:28:11Speaker 01

  It's fun. I'm a big dude, but I love stuff like that. It's fun. And like they'll, they'll have like a slide on it. They'll put objects like we have barrels that will push over. It's cool. It's, it's just meant to show you like that you are safe in your gear to get that confidence that when you are putting out your gym, like you are safe, like trust your equipment.

• 2:28:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:32Speaker 01

  It's badass, man. Like I, I have a lot of hope for like the future of like the fire department, fire EMS, like it's a great culture. It, right now is a great time to get started in it. So if anyone's aspiring, please like reach out. Uh, I'll give you whatever I have.

• 2:28:49Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Right on. Awesome. Does that get us up to speed? That's where we're at. What's your, uh, what's your, uh, Instagram you were talking about?

• 2:28:58Speaker 01

  Uh, my Instagram is, uh, A R E O H B E eight four.

• 2:29:06Jocko Willink?

  What the hell does that mean?

• 2:29:07Speaker 01

  Oh wait, it's 1984. So it's my name phonetically. A R E is R, O H is O, B E is B. So it's like.

• 2:29:15Jocko Willink?

  1984?

• 2:29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, 1984. What do you mean? What is that? You have a guy on here named Echo Charles.

• 2:29:20Jocko Willink?

  That's true, but that's his actual name.

• 2:29:22Speaker 01

  No, I know, but what kind of name is that? Yeah, it's 1984. So.

• 2:29:25Jocko Willink?

  A R E.

• 2:29:27Speaker 01

  OH BE 1984 or just search Rob Black on Facebook. I don't know everything. I'll never claim to know everything, but I can help whoever.

• 2:29:37Jocko Willink?

  So we got the before we before we wrap up, we got the one one AD Ramadi reunion taking place in January of 2026. Everybody that was there and spouses and Gold Star families are all invited to come. There's been, you know, guys from uh every basically every unit we're we're been in contact. We're having meetings, uh getting it all set up. General McFarland's, you know, he's

• 2:30:05Speaker 01

  That's a big deal.

• 2:30:06Jocko Willink?

  He's still he's still in charge.

• 2:30:08Speaker 01

  Yo, honey.

• 2:30:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And and just awesome. And it's been very cool to reconnect with a bunch of those. And that's how I got in touch with Dan Pinion. Like there's I got a few more guys from Ramadi lined up to come on the podcast, but yeah, if anybody's listening to this that was in Ramadi, please look up. It's a ready first reunion. And look it up. It's there's a Facebook. There's a website. Trying to get people to register right now. There's an Instagram. It'd be awesome to see you all down there to to see everyone again. It's been wild, you know, because there's there's like going. We have these uh what are the Zoom calls, right? With all the dudes and you know, some of them were like enlisted guys, but some of them are the commanders, you know, and everybody in between.

• 2:30:52Jocko Willink?

  And it's wild to sit down and you haven't seen these guys in almost 20 years because it's a 20 year reunion. You haven't seen these guys in 20 years, but you it's just like I have the instant feeling that we're in a brigade.

• 2:31:04Speaker 01

  Meeting. Yeah, it's like nothing's changed.

• 2:31:07Jocko Willink?

  There you are. Yes, sir. Roger that. Oh, we'll walk on that. Who's taking lead on that? Yeah, it's just like boom.

• 2:31:11Speaker 01

  Isn't it funny how the leadership is still the leadership? Like even 20 years later, like the the role players are still doing the role playing. I had no idea like like what we were saying, like going into Ramadi, like I didn't even know what a cop was. Like, what do you mean? We're building combat outputs. Like, what the heck does that mean?

• 2:31:28Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I cannot believe that was your your welcome to the army. You're gonna, oh, train up to be in an aid station. Oh, no, actually, no, you're gonna be the Brigade Recon Troop. What does that mean? Oh, it means you're gonna be going out.

• 2:31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:41Jocko Willink?

  And going in Overwatch, because it's just nuts, man.

• 2:31:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:45Jocko Willink?

  And, and seeing what you've done and seeing you, look, what the struggles you've gone through. I think a lot of guys have been through that. Um, and it'll be, it'll be awesome to sit down and meet and greet with a bunch of people that we haven't seen in 20 years.

• 2:31:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:31:58Jocko Willink?

  I know you said you haven't logged in for your vacation time yet.

• 2:32:02Speaker 01

  We did in October.

• 2:32:03Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, let's go.

• 2:32:05Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 2:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Somebody give this guy some time off up there.

• 2:32:08Speaker 01

  No, I'll get it.

• 2:32:10Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be freaking legit. Um, so people can find you. There's your, your Instagram, A R E O H B E nineteen eighty-four.

• 2:32:20Jocko Willink?

  Carrie, you got any questions?

• 2:32:22Speaker 02

  I did have one question. So, um, Sayason, White, White Album, Anthony Green. What are, what are your opinions on that album?

• 2:32:30Speaker 01

  I just, uh, saw Anthony Green at, uh, When We Were Young. It's still got it.

• 2:32:35Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 2:32:36Speaker 01

  He's in a new band. I, I forget what it's called. We saw them, they opened up for Taking Back Sunday and the Used. We went to that, like, uh, concert on the Friday night.

• 2:32:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:45Speaker 01

  But-

• 2:32:45Speaker 02

  Circa Survive, maybe?

• 2:32:47Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, so that was his side project.

• 2:32:49Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:32:50Speaker 01

  Circa, man, you're taking it back.

• 2:32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  So I love, like, the song Seven Years, Bury Your Head, uh, They Perched on Stilts. Oh, man. Love it.

• 2:33:00Speaker 02

  We, we actually caught a, uh, me and a buddy of mine caught a Circa Survive show.

• 2:33:04Speaker 01

  No way.

• 2:33:05Speaker 02

  In, in LA, uh, a few years back, and it was awesome, man. Anthony Green still got it for sure.

• 2:33:10Speaker 01

  Good energy, like, he, he puts on a good, like, he's just an energetic dude, like, and his stage presence is really good.

• 2:33:16Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Uh, what's the playlist looking like now? Like, what, what do you got going on?

• 2:33:21Speaker 01

  For me?

• 2:33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:22Speaker 01

  It's the same garbage I've been listening to. So, like, I'm so stuck in the, like, if I try and get into new bands, I'm like, ah, I'm just gonna go back to what I love, like, the Rufio, it's still Yellow Card, Blink One Eighty, like, all the-

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 2:33:34Speaker 01

  Typical bands that I, I still love.

• 2:33:36Speaker 02

  Nice. I got caught up in, uh, you know, post-hardcore, two thousand three to like, two thousand nine.

• 2:33:43Speaker 01

  That's what's-

• 2:33:44Speaker 02

  Hardcore, and that's just, yeah. Uh, you, you mentioned a day to remember too, freaking stellar.

• 2:33:49Speaker 01

  All-time low.

• 2:33:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:50Speaker 01

  And me and my wife saw Avril Lavigne last year.

• 2:33:53Speaker 02

  That's awesome. Yeah, I, I did definitely a little bit of the Used too.

• 2:33:57Speaker 01

  Oh, we saw them live with, uh, Taking Back Sunday. Holy smokes. Incredible. Like, one of the best shows I've ever seen. My like, it sounded like the album. Like, it was, you know, when you see bands and sometimes it's like disappointing. Like, man, that kind of sucks. It sounded like the album. They were incredible.

• 2:34:14Speaker 02

  Right on. Yeah, I, I went hard. I went harder, the harder route, but definitely those guys were in the mix.

• 2:34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:19Speaker 02

  Uh, in, on the chill days, throwing on some ASN or, yeah, anything.

• 2:34:23Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry.

• 2:34:24Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 2:34:25Speaker 01

  Big dick over here. My bad. Geez, sorry.

• 2:34:29Jocko Willink?

  Sorry, I'm a little hard.

• 2:34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry. I like real music guy. I'm putting up two twenty-five for sets, bro. My bad.

• 2:34:37Speaker 02

  Repping it out.

• 2:34:38Speaker 01

  Have you guys had a carb since the Bush administration? Like, Jesus Christ, weren't you guys eating elk over here? God damn.

• 2:34:44Jocko Willink?

  Elk and milk.

• 2:34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, just fucking beefy. God, make me insecure.

• 2:34:51Jocko Willink?

  Shag.

• 2:34:52Speaker 02

  What else, Kerry? That was it. Yeah.

• 2:34:54Jocko Willink?

  Nothing else? No, no, no freaking deep Ramadi questions? I always wondered, like, for you guys, for like, you sitting here, because you, because you've been hanging around for so long and just, you know, sitting here with someone that was seeing, like, my guys from the outside, and what did we look like? I'm always curious, like, what, you know, what was that? You kind of gave us, you know, some of that today, like, rolling in.

• 2:35:16Speaker 01

  Organized.

• 2:35:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's always, it's always cool to, like, get another piece of the picture, as somebody on the outside looking in, where we hear from the task unit bruiser guys, right? And then we hear from the leadership, General McFarland, you know, and some of the other key leaders. Uh, and then we, we hear from some of the Marines and the Army guys that were on the ground. It's just all these different perspectives that paint this picture of what it was like in the Battle of Ramadi. One of the things that you brought up today that I, I thought was super cool, Rob, was what it was like to go

• 2:35:49Speaker 02

  meet with and plan with the SEALs. You know, we know what it's like from the bruiser side, I feel like, as a listener. Um, you, you've described how

• 2:35:58Jocko Willink?

  You presented that to the bruiser guys where it's like, hey, we're going to be squared away. Uh, we're, we're going to be in uniforms. We're going to have haircuts. Uh, every, everything's going to be super squared away. And but to see it from the army perspective too, where it's like, oh shit, we gotta wash our, our stuff and make sure we're.

• 2:36:15Speaker 01

  Well, you're going into a, into the seals talk like you're being, one, you're being invited in. So you're like, oh shit, like I hope we don't screw this up. And then you need to instill that like, can we trust these turds? Like if we show up and we look like a bag of ass, they're going to be like, these are the guys watching our outer court on.

• 2:36:36Jocko Willink?

  Well, what's funny is that's exactly the same thoughts we had. Like, you know, we were like, we need to show these guys that we're squared away.

• 2:36:41Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:36:41Jocko Willink?

  And, and the other thing is, is like, we looked at you guys the whole time. We looked at all the conventional units like, oh, cool. We're going to go do an op. It's going to take us an hour. Maybe we'll do an overwatch. It's going to take us 24, maybe 48 hours, maybe 72 hours will be out there. And then we'll go back and we'll, we have air conditioned spaces and we got, you know, my guys had the video game freaking thing set up and we got decent chow. And it's like, oh yeah, when we're back, you guys are going to go back out again, and then you're going to back out again, and then you're going to go back out again. And so we knew that you guys were just getting after it every single day. And that's why we had so much respect for you guys. And that's why we did everything we could to, to support you guys as much as we possibly could.

• 2:37:26Jocko Willink?

  Um, I know I got some, some more battalion commanders coming on in the near future. And it was the same thing, like for us, you know, for us being in a seal platoon. Like we, we got 30, 40 seals. You know what I mean? When we're doing a big operation, it's 30, 40 seals. When we're going to battalion op orders where there's 700 freaking dudes going in. Iraqi army, US army, 30 or 40 or 50 armor pieces going in, bro. It's like you're in a movie. Like I was in heaven. I was like, this is freaking epic.

• 2:38:01Speaker 01

  Well, that's why you guys, you guys live for that. Like that's why you guys join the seals.

• 2:38:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:38:09Jocko Willink?

  And I talked about this with General McFarlane, but everybody feels the same way. It's like the interservice rivalry that you hear about is like, just was not there. You know, it's like, what do you guys need? How can we help? We're here to support and, and that's the way it had to be.

• 2:38:23Speaker 01

  That is true. Like the humility amongst like the, the co-ops, like how everything was working out. Like at least, and I was, I was very like, Dan's going to give you the, the perspective from like the leadership and like how he was running his platoons. I was just, the only thing I needed to worry about was like, did I have rounds in my rifle? And did I have a couple IVs and some Band-Aids? So it just like filling in those gaps and like giving the different perspective. Like, I hope I provided that.

• 2:38:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure, for sure. And we've had, we've had a few of the frontline dudes here, you know, just frontline soldiers that were out there getting after it, getting after it, and then getting after it some more. That's what you guys were doing. It was freaking, it was, uh, we watched in awe as you guys, as you guys did your thing. Um, so anything else, Kerry? No, sir. Freaking epic. Rob, any, any final thoughts, brother?

• 2:39:17Speaker 01

  I, I just hope if, if anyone is listening, um, do not give up. It does get better. I know it sounds very like you've heard it before.

• 2:39:28Speaker 01

  During like my darkest times, I did rely on a lot of my friends that I've had like lifelong friendships with, and they were all there for me. I could never repay them for what they did for me and my wife, my, my kids. Like, there is hope. Do not give up. You aren't a worthless piece of shit. Like it, it's okay to be depressed. It's okay to be, have good days, have bad days, and it happens. And it's going to keep happening over and over again. Like it, it's a lifelong journey with this like mental health crap. And we can all get through it together like as a community, military, fire, police, EMS, like we, if we all band together, like there's nothing that we can't do. God, that sounds super like lame, right?

• 2:40:10Jocko Willink?

  It also sounds super true.

• 2:40:13Speaker 01

  No, it truly is, but it sounds like very gimmicky.

• 2:40:15Jocko Willink?

  You know, we just talked about being on the battlefield and how it's like, hey, whatever you need, we're there, we'll support each other. And this is the same exact thing you're talking about.

• 2:40:22Speaker 01

  It truly is. And, and my Instagram's out there. I'll give you guys like my information if you want to put it up. Like if any, if anyone has any questions about like the fire department, EMS, getting into it, if I can help in any way, shape or form, like at least guide you in the direction. Cause I, I never have all the answers, but, but I will try and find all of them. I have a lot of resources too, like a lot of friends that, that could help me out as well.

• 2:40:45Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome, man. Well, great, great final words, man. Don't ever give up, man.

• 2:40:50Speaker 01

  Never.

• 2:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for joining us. Thanks for sharing your experiences. It's just awesome, awesome to see you. Thanks for your service in Ramadi. As I said, man, it was an honor to watch you guys. It was an honor to serve alongside you guys and, and know that we were mutually supporting each other on the battlefield and we can still mutually support each other now.

• 2:41:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:41:10Jocko Willink?

  So we'll never forget you guys. We'll never forget the heroes that you guys lost.

• 2:41:16Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for your service in the fire department as well. I know it's a hell of a job and thanks for continuing to lead and serve to this day, brother. Thank you.

• 2:41:25Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you for having me on and thank you for this opportunity. I, I truly appreciate it.

• 2:41:29Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 2:41:30Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:41:32Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Rob Black has left the building. Freaking awesome to see him. It's gonna be awesome to see all of you that served in Ramadi with us down in Texas in January.

• 2:41:49Jocko Willink?

  Come to the reunion, the Ramadi reunion. It's, it's gonna be epic.

• 2:41:55Jocko Willink?

  Seeing everybody, they got music planned, they got events planned. I think there's some kind of golf activity going down. So if you can, you know, try and make it happen. It's gonna be, it's gonna be really cool. It's been very cool to see all the, a bunch of the people on these Zoom calls that we're doing. So if you can make it down, look, look, look at the, you know, Rob, great guy, you know, clearly had some struggles, had some stuff to get through. And, and like he said, don't give up. And like he also said, you know, we support each other on the battlefield. Let's keep supporting each other. You know, let's keep supporting each other. So if you were there with us, if you're Gold Star

• 2:42:35Jocko Willink?

  family, please come down to Texas for the Ready First Ramadi reunion. We look forward to seeing you there. And that's what we're doing. Also, I know that Kerry, you've been, you've been struggling a little bit lately. Not so much with mental health, but more trying to hit your, hit your protein activities, right? Is that what, is that what we're doing?

• 2:42:58Speaker 02

  Well, struggling in a good way, I would say. It's not like a, a bad struggle, you know? We're just trying to hit goals and, and you know, sometimes that's challenging.

• 2:43:06Jocko Willink?

  Because Rob was talking about the beef in the room, right? Rob was talking about that. So what are you trying to, what are you trying to hit protein wise?

• 2:43:15Speaker 02

  So 200 grams, you know, trying to hit 200 grams a day. And would I, a while back, I,

• 2:43:22Jocko Willink?

  So what are you going with? One gram per pound of body, lean body weight or ideal weight or some, something like that?

• 2:43:27Speaker 02

  Roughly.

• 2:43:28Jocko Willink?

  That's what you're doing?

• 2:43:29Speaker 02

  Roughly, but 200 grams, I started tracking it again, a little while back. I go through these phases, right? Where I'm, I'm like, super dialed into my tracking and then life happens, right? We get busy. So started tracking again, I, I noticed that my protein was way down. I was, you know, getting like 120, 125 grams, just because I'm only eating two meals, right? I'm skipping breakfast. I'm doing like a big lunch, big dinner type thing.

• 2:43:51Jocko Willink?

  How many grams are you getting? 125?

• 2:43:53Speaker 02

  Well, it was like, it was roughly 125 because it was two portions of meat a day, right? And

• 2:43:58Jocko Willink?

  And one of those portions wasn't a four pound steak?

• 2:44:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:01Jocko Willink?

  Four pound piece of ribeye?

• 2:44:02Speaker 02

  And that was before, and you throw like a protein shake on top of that, right? So that gets you to like 130, 130 grams. It's like, we gotta get those numbers up.

• 2:44:10Jocko Willink?

  It was a rookie numbers.

• 2:44:12Speaker 02

  Rookie numbers, gotta get those numbers up.

• 2:44:14Jocko Willink?

  So how many moles a day does it take to get your numbers?

• 2:44:17Speaker 02

  So I'm kind of fortunate, right? Because I'm at the Jocko Fuel media offices and we kind of got the goods, right? So I can get it.

• 2:44:26Jocko Willink?

  That stash, boy.

• 2:44:27Speaker 02

  So we get that.

• 2:44:28Jocko Willink?

  You know what I texted the other day? Are you in the office?

• 2:44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:30Jocko Willink?

  You know what I needed?

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:44:32Jocko Willink?

  I needed Jocko Fuel. I was low. I was low on iced tea lemonade.

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  She's gonna.

• 2:44:37Jocko Willink?

  And I was gonna be like, bro, I'm gonna swing by there and grab something, something.

• 2:44:40Speaker 02

  That stash.

• 2:44:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I ordered it. By the way, if you order Jocko Fuel right now, like I just ordered, I ordered four cases of iced tea lemonade to go.

• 2:44:49Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 2:44:49Jocko Willink?

  And it's here. It's like here in three days, something like that. So we, we got you covered. So do you, are you making those kind of super power shakes too? Like protein shakes with, do you put three scoops in?

• 2:45:04Speaker 02

  I've, I've triple scooped and so it's RTD usually in the morning or, you know, early afternoon. And then in the evenings before the meal, I'll, I'll hit another like shake blender style and double scoop for sure. Sometimes you get, you get crazy, get that third one in. But that helps with consistency too. You get that like milkshake.

• 2:45:24Jocko Willink?

  What flavor are you going?

• 2:45:25Speaker 02

  Chocolate all day.

• 2:45:26Jocko Willink?

  All day.

• 2:45:26Speaker 02

  I, I've been, I've been heavy on the chocolate train. Yeah.

• 2:45:30Jocko Willink?

  I got some, have you tried the Pro Series yet?

• 2:45:34Speaker 02

  I've tried the pre-workout and I gave, I gave Ashley at Jocko Fuel like a four paragraph feedback.

• 2:45:43Jocko Willink?

  Cause you were so hyped.

• 2:45:45Speaker 02

  I was so hyped, man. It is insane.

• 2:45:47Jocko Willink?

  The, the protein is, it's, it's really, really delicious. So we got, we had a Pro Series coming out. Anyways, all the stuff that we're talking about, you need some fuel, you need Jocko Fuel, you need energy, you need hydration, you need protein, you need cold protection, immunity protection. We got you covered. Go to JacoFuel.com and check that out. Also you can check out OriginUSA.com. I know. So I sacrificed my Chelsea boots, which Echo is upset about, apparently. I never would picture Echo. First of all, it's, it's hard to even picture Echo wearing any types of shoes at all. If he is, he's wearing those, whatever those Converse like elastic chalk.

• 2:46:29Speaker 02

  No laces.

• 2:46:32Jocko Willink?

  That's what he sports or slippers, you know, flip flops as we call them.

• 2:46:37Jocko Willink?

  But I, in front of him, I gave you the Chelsea boots.

• 2:46:39Speaker 02

  I watched it.

• 2:46:40Jocko Willink?

  He's holding a grudge.

• 2:46:42Speaker 02

  I watched it on his face, like as you passed me the boots, like his expression dropped. He was, he was upset.

• 2:46:49Jocko Willink?

  But they're working out for you?

• 2:46:50Speaker 02

  Oh dude, yeah. So we had a little, we had a little date night scenario the other day and yeah, I, I had to shoot you a picture afterwards because those are so clutch when, and I'm not, I'm not a super fashionable guy, you know, but, uh, you know, little button up, whatever, short sleeve button up, some jeans and I throw on, I throw on those Chelsea boots, man, and it is, uh, it is game over compliments from G money, um, on those. So yeah, big, big fan. Those Chelsea boots are insanely comfortable.

• 2:47:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they are, they are comfortable. I did try them on before I gave them away. Uh, they're just not really my, you know, to say I have some style of some kind is kind of a weird thing to even say, but they're not something I would be wearing, right? So I'm not going to just have them sitting there in my closet. I wear the, the Mokto's kind of, that's what I wear right now.

• 2:47:40Speaker 02

  Uniform.

• 2:47:41Jocko Willink?

  And then obviously Origin jeans all day. You know, they have, I got the first, well, my wife got a pair of the test pair of female Origin jeans. So those are common and they're like, my wife was freaking pumped. She was like, dude, these are great. These fit perfect and blah, blah, blah, blah. So we got some, we got some ladies jeans on the way. I think we're going to run like three or 4,000 pairs, something like that. So we'll let you all know, but the thing is the stuff's made in America, of course, a hundred percent. So you don't have to have something that's embedded with a communist, communist, uh, threads.

• 2:48:18Speaker 02

  Communism free?

• 2:48:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's communism free, a hundred percent. So there you go, originusa.com. Hey, speaking of, uh, fashion, you're wearing a Jocko store shirt, the sugar coated lies shirt. What, what is that? Uh, Krispy Kreme or something?

• 2:48:33Speaker 02

  This is.

• 2:48:34Jocko Willink?

  The gank?

• 2:48:34Speaker 02

  This is a rip of, of the Krispy Kreme, uh, logo, but this is actually a shirt locker shirt. Um, so this is one of the kind of cool designs that you will see in your shirt locker subscription. And of course, this, this one especially every time I wear it, people are like, where do I get that? You know, I gotta, gotta. Let them know.

• 2:48:56Jocko Willink?

  Let them know, Sherlock. Check out choco store.com if you need anything to wear. We got you covered there. Books, I've written a bunch of books, but also, once again, Daniel Pinion, Command Sergeant Major retired. He wrote this book called Chop That Shit Up, which is the best title. And when you get the story behind that title, you'll, you'll know what it's all about. But check out this book. You heard some of, some of it today with Rob Black also covered it on the podcast, but check out the book, man. Great book from a great guy. And then Echelon Front, you know, so we talked about some of the things that we experienced in Ramadi today. And, you know, there was a lot of lessons learned, a lot of lessons learned from a

• 2:49:38Jocko Willink?

  leadership perspective. And we took those lessons and we eventually started teaching these lessons learned to, well, originally, we taught them to SEALs. And then, once I retired, we started teaching them to civilian companies and teams and whatever. So they caught, they caught on because they're effective. They're proved in combat and they'll work no matter what leadership endeavor you're into. They will help you. So echelonfront.com, we got leadership consulting, we got events that we do, we do keynote speeches, we do, we, we will help you in your leadership journey and it'll improve every aspect of your life. And then also, embedded in Echelon Front,

• 2:50:21Jocko Willink?

  we have extremeownership.com, which is an online leadership school. And so many people, so much good feedback on it. So leadership is everything. Leadership is everything that you're doing. If you're interacting with other human beings, you're leading. So check out echelonfront.com, check out extremeownership.com and we got you covered. Also, if you want to help service members, you know, we, we lost Mark Lee in Ramadi on August 2nd. And

• 2:50:54Jocko Willink?

  Mark's mom, she turned that into the most positive thing you could imagine, which is her charity, America's Mighty Warriors. Incredible organization, helps out so many veterans. If you want to help or you want to support, you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, check out HeroesAndHorses.org. Again, you can hear the struggles that Rob went through. It's tough. Tough when guys come home. And HeroesAndHorses.org takes guys, takes veterans, takes them up into the mountains. I think it's a 41-day vision quest. You get a horse, and then you break the horse, or whatever. I don't, I think they call it breaking. Maybe they have a nicer word for it now, because it's different. They do it in a different

• 2:51:37Jocko Willink?

  way. It's like you, you build a relationship with the horse, and the horse starts to trust you. And then you can ride the horse, and then you ride the horse in the backcountry for 41 days of Montana. It's freaking awesome. Great impact on people. So check out HeroesAndHorses.org. And then Jimmy Ma has got an organization, Beyond the Brotherhood. Again, it's BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. It's taking guys that gotta get out of the SEAL teams, that need to move on to the next chapter of their life. So you can, you can check that out as well. If you want to connect with us, so here's Rob Black. He made a lot of real generous offers, you know, for people that want to reach out to him, whether you need some help, you know, with your mental

• 2:52:17Jocko Willink?

  health, need some help getting into the fire department, becoming a paramedic, EMT, whatever. He's obviously a super generous guy. And he's on Instagram, and he's @A R E O H B E 1984. And if you want to connect with us, you can check out Jaco.com. And on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink. Kerry's at Kerry Hilton. Just be careful, don't waste a bunch of time on there, it'll wreck your life. Once again, thanks to Rob Black for joining us. Grateful for your service as a firefighter and as a soldier.

• 2:52:55Jocko Willink?

  It was a hell of a fight there in Ramadi. The fact that you were 21 years old and you and your crew just stood tall and took the fight to the took the fight to the enemy. It was an honor to serve with all of you. Thanks all of our military personnel out there around the globe right now with a reverent salute to the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines of the Ready First Brigade Combat Team for the blood, sweat, and sacrifice in that God forsaken city. Thank you for what you did over there, and I hope to see all of you at the reunion in Texas, January 2026, 20 years. I'll see you there. And finally, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters,

• 2:53:39Jocko Willink?

  paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all of you first responders out there every day, just like Rob Black, in some cases with Rob Black. Thanks for keeping us safe here at home. And for everyone else out there, just remember what Rob closed out with. Don't give up. Don't give up. There's gonna be some high points, there's gonna be some low points. They're gonna come, they're gonna go. But don't, no matter what, don't give up. That's all I got. Until next time, this is Kerry and Jocko out.