Jocko Underground: My Career Choice is Haunting Me

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 177.

• 0:05Jocko Willink?

  Sitting here with Echo Charles. 177 was my basic underwater demolition SEAL class, just FYI. 177.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  What was your number in the back of your head, helmet, whatever?

• 0:16Jocko Willink?

  There's no number. You have your name, Willink, but the number on my helmet is 177.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  So everyone, is that how it is now?

• 0:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  So everyone has the same number?

• 0:24Jocko Willink?

  Now, that's how it's been.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know, bro. I didn't go to BUDS.

• 0:28Jocko Willink?

  Actually, you know, you might be right. That way back in the day, in, um, at airborne school, you had like a number that was your assigned, specific number.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Like in football?

• 0:38Jocko Willink?

  In BUDS, you, for the whole time that I've known, you put your BUDS class number on your helmet. Mine was 177.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Okay, so when they talk about, like JB's talking about, you know, her and Flannard, like, doing something, cleaning the helmet over the weekend and making sure that that number is just the class number. And everyone has the same number.

• 0:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep, everyone has the same number. Mine was 177.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  177, there you go. Willink on the back.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I still got, I still got, you know, some bros from 177 that still have, and they'll like sign off a text like, "Sevens." You know what I'm saying?

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's kinda hard.

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's pretty dope.

• 1:22Jocko Willink?

  So that's pretty funny.

• 1:24Jocko Willink?

  But right on, let's get into it. Let's, let's answer some questions. Let's try to give some people some guidance, some direction, some advice. What do we got? First question?

• 1:34Speaker 01

  First question. Uh, Jocko, I served in the Army for seven years, including a deployment to the Alambar Province, 2006, 2007, uh, where the 3-509,

• 1:48Speaker 01

  wreaked havoc on Akiz, A-Q-I-Z.

• 1:51Jocko Willink?

  A-Q-I-Z, yup.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:53Jocko Willink?

  Al Qaeda in Iraq.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  I'm proud of my time in the military. However, towards the beginning of my service, I failed special forces selection. Later in my enlistment, I trained up to return to SFAS. But but then at the last minute, decided to ETS was ETS.

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  Get out.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  SFAS is special forces assessment selection.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  What does ETS like stand for?

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:20Jocko Willink?

  End of time service and tour service, something like that.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so I decided to ETS and marry my girlfriend who I'm married to today. I have a good career, solid marriage, four kids, great friends, and still get after it daily. That being said, I'm occasionally haunted by the green beret I never earned. Have you ever had something that you did not achieve that lives in your mind and distracts you? What is a good mental model to deal with this and keep it from taking me off the path?

• 2:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, first of all, thanks for your service in the through the third of the 509th, man. What a storied unit, Geronimo. And during that deployment, that 0607 deployment, working in Fallujah, working in Karma, additional work in Babel. Though you guys upheld.

• 3:10Jocko Willink?

  Be you guys completely upheld the outstanding reputation, the historical reputation that your forefathers built.

• 3:18Jocko Willink?

  And I know you guys fought hard. I know you faced IEDs, mortars, snipers, the whole nine yards. I know that you in your battalion took significant casualties.

• 3:29Jocko Willink?

  You lost some heroic soldiers. I know that your unit received the valorous unit award.

• 3:40Jocko Willink?

  I mean, the citation for that. Here's a little quote from the citation from your valorous unit award. Operating outside the wire. The paratroopers encountered many obstacles, including firefights with insurgents, improvised explosive devices, car bombs, and explosively formed projectiles. They also captured numerous suspects, extremists, and terrorists considered to be high value targets. Performing countless operations, day and night, on the ground and by air assaults throughout their deployment. Many of the paratroopers received decorations for valor achievement and combat wounds.

• 4:13Jocko Willink?

  Brother.

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  You, you may not have earned the Green Beret, but trust me, you earned your place as a warrior, as a patriot and, and as a man. You did everything that we did as SEALs.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  And I, that's like, that's like, at a minimum. Like, there's Green Berets and SEALs and Rangers that have never even seen combat. There's Green Berets, Rangers and SEALs that definitely didn't see as much as you did. And you should be damn proud of what you were able to do. And you were lucky to be able to do it. You were able to do it. And it sounds like you came home in one piece, thank God. And just be proud of that, man. And look, the Special Forces is an outstanding community and they're outstanding at their job. At their specific job. You know, this is something I explained when, like, for in a SEAL platoon, there's officers and there's enlisted guys. And

• 5:15Jocko Willink?

  the officer's job, he, look, he's in the leadership position, but his job is to, like, help oversee the briefing, help make the calls in the situation, help do risk assessments. Well, the radioman's job, he has a job too. It's help get the communications plan ready, help prep all the radios, make communications when it's time to talk to somebody. And the medic has a job. Hey, make sure you know what the CASVAC plan. Like, everyone has a job. And all those jobs are important. And no job is more important than the other job. And so, Special Forces, a Special Forces, Green Berets are outstanding at their job. It's an outstanding community. And guess what? The 3rd of the 509th is an outstanding unit. And you're outstanding at their job.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  So, you did your job in an outstanding unit, in an outstanding way, you performed outstanding.

• 6:13Jocko Willink?

  So you know, you you asked something like, is there anything, what was it? I don't know if it was regret or anything I didn't achieve, dude, of course, we all look back and wish we did more. Right? Always.

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  You know, always you always wish back, wish you could go back and do more. And I I've said before. In similar situations to the topic that you're bringing up is like, you know, when I would have felt like I did enough when I was dead on the battlefield? You know what I mean? Like you only did enough if I would only feel like I did enough if I was dead. You know what I'm saying? And that's a I'm I'm being facetious, but that's the feeling, right?

• 6:58Jocko Willink?

  So do I wish I could have done more? Absolutely.

• 7:03Jocko Willink?

  But I did what I could. And you did what the nation needed you to do. You went above and beyond what the nation needed you to do. So be proud. Keep living an awesome life as a husband, as a dad, and as an upstanding member of society. Who earned? This freedom who fought for this freedom. And paid for this freedom. Through selfless service. That's what you've done. Be proud of that. It's awesome. The fact that you weren't a Green Beret. I mean, Hackworth wasn't a Green Beret. Chesty Puller wasn't a Green Beret. Louis Puller wasn't a Green like doesn't. It's it's no factor. It's no factor at all, man.

• 7:49Jocko Willink?

  You done good. Be proud. That's what I got.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's. I understand this, but and so I used to play football. I know this.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  And I in a lot of ways, playing football on a football team is like a good analogy for this kind of stuff. Like anytime you have a group of people trying to like achieve something because everyone on the football, like each position has a very specific job. And it's for a specific reason and those positions are based on people's specific like capabilities and attributes, right? So you get receivers on the outside, they're usually fast and can catch and all this stuff, right? And down the line. So here's the thing that we can kind of run into. Let's, okay, so you know what, you know, football, right? So you know what a lineman is, right? You know, offensive lineman is, okay, so you compare an O line, right? We'll say a guard or a tackle.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  We'll say a guard, actually a tackle, right? Oh, tackle. And then you compare that to a wide receiver or a quarterback.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Joe Montana, right? Quarterback, like these famous guys getting throwing touchdown passes, receivers making touchdowns, three touchdowns in a game, everybody holding them, you know, making the game winning catch or the throw, right? Meanwhile, the tackle is doing such an important job. Literally like the tackles in the line, if they don't do a good job, you don't win. You don't score, you don't, the game, like you cannot win.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Um, of course, that goes for everyone down the line, right? But from the outside, the tackle's job is not glorious. It's not like, it doesn't get the cool limelight and the cool like freaking glitter and all that stuff. Similar to like the Navy SEALs, it went in, I got all this whatever. And you always say, just like how you say, like, hey, you had a job to do and you did your job. You know, even like, I don't know, the logistics guy or something, right? He did his job. Or it's kind of, it's the same deal, bro. Like the logistics guys, if they don't do a good job, you jam up the whole system and we cannot win. Facts. But sometimes when we don't get the glory, you know, I'm an O tackle. I ran like a seven second freaking forty, forty yard dash. And, you know, I didn't make the receiver, you know,

• 10:01Speaker 01

  like the position, the depth chart. And they put me at tackle. But I was like one of the best tackles ever. Like freaking never missed a block, blah, blah, blah, right? But I had these dreams of being a wide receiver. I've never caught a touchdown in my whole life. I feel regretful. See how crazy that sounds? So it's kind of the same thing. Yep. But that limelight kind of gets in your eyes a little bit, you know? Yeah, I don't even think I'm knocking up.

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm not gonna pin the, hey, I wanted the limelight on this guy. He probably just feels like he could have offered more and plus he, he didn't make it when he did go. You know what I'm saying? What did he say? He failed. He failed special forces selection. So like,

• 10:41Jocko Willink?

  it's one of those things you always want, which can't have type scenario. So he's got some of that going on.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And limelight, I know. And that myth came off a little bit inaccurate, you know, like not congruent or whatever, but it's, it's an analogy though, because let's say it's special forces, like freaking suck special for that's some cool stuff to the public eye. Yeah. That's limelight. That's the limelight I'm talking about. I'm not talking about like, he deserves more medals than you because he was more important and he's got, you know, it's like, it's slightly different than that. I'm saying from a perspect, just it's more of an idea from a very specific perspective is what it is.

• 11:17Jocko Willink?

  But I think for him, he just, I think a little bit of this is just you want what you that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jacood underground.com and subscribe and we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors and we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's jacood underground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.