What Happens When You Stop Optimizing and Start Committing with Former LA Lakers President Tim Harris

In a world of job-hopping, side hustles, and an endless LinkedIn feed, Tim Harris did something almost no one does anymore. He stayed put. Few executives spend an entire career helping build a dynasty. Tim Harris spent 35 years with the Los Angeles Lakers, rising to President of Business Operations and helping transform the franchise into a global brand. Through championship eras, iconic athletes like Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, and decades of change in professional sports, Tim's influence was felt not on the hardwood, but in the culture, leadership, and business excellence that powered one of the NBA's most storied organizations. In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why clarity of role is the most underrated tool in any leader's arsenal ➡️ The three unspoken words that silently destroy any team ➡️ What Kobe Bryant taught Tim about mindset (+ why it matters off the court) ➡️ How the Lakers built one of the most powerful brands in sports ➡️ What elite athletes do differently + how it translates directly to business ➡️ What caring, high-performing leadership actually looks like ➡️ Why giving away free tickets to strangers was a brilliant + caring business decision ➡️ The cost of short-termism + what we lose when we stop playing the long game Even a brand as iconic as the Lakers wasn't built by championships alone. Tim says its foundation was built one small, genuine human moment at a time. This… is A Bit of Optimism. + + + Chapters Chapters 00:00:00 You Have to Love Them in Order to Win 00:01:54 Why Tim Stayed 35 Years With One Company 00:04:30 From Soccer Player to Lakers President: Tim's Unlikely Journey 00:07:54 Coaching as Leadership: Don't Play on the Field 00:09:39 The Long Game vs Day Trading Success 00:11:00 The Underrated Tool of Clarity of Role 00:13:29 Kobe's Compartmentalization: Nice Guy Off Court, Competitor On Court 00:15:19 The Mental Game: What Separates Elite Athletes From Everyone Else 00:22:08 The Three Unspoken Words That Ruin Any Team 00:24:16 Meeting People Where They Are 00:36:45 Caught You Being a Laker: Empowering Employees to Create Magic 00:30:31 The Empty Seat Philosophy: Turning Sunk Costs Into Memories 00:31:35 Building Brands One Tiny Act at a Time 00:38:42 Remember That Business Is Always Human 00:42:04 The Jenga Theory: Every Interaction Either Builds or Destroys Your Brand 00:46:31 Caring Structure: What People Actually Crave at Work 00:47:26 Never Miss Your Kid's Game: The Accountability Agreement 00:50:09 Learning From Legends: Phil Jackson and the Human-First Philosophy 00:48:48 The Work Happens in the Dark: What Made Kobe and LeBron Great 00:50:56 Stop and Look at the Joy: Championship Lessons and Kobe's Legacy + + + Credits Footage: NBA Entertainment Photos: http://bit.ly/43Fb37Z (Full List) + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  When you have these kind of positions like I have with the Lakers is you're around these like amazing human beings, you're around people like Phil Jackson. And here's the one thing that great leaders, great coaches, it's human first. Phil Jackson, he cared about the human being.

• 0:16Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved.

• 0:22Simon Sinek?

  You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is, that is about as good as it gets. Most of us have had more than one job, probably even more than a few. We pivot, we hustle, we optimize. Why? Because we live in a world where loyalty to one company, quite frankly, has become a relic of the past and flexibility has become a professional necessity. But this need for constant reinvention, it can be lonely and it's definitely stressful and hard work. So what can we learn from someone who chose to stay in one job and learn to build a culture where others wanted to stay too? That's why I asked Tim Harris to come on the show.

• 1:06Simon Sinek?

  He spent 35 years with the LA Lakers, where he rose to become the president of business operations and where he oversaw one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history. He was there for Kobe, for LeBron, for championships. And in that time, he learned something that has become increasingly rare, what it takes to build something worth sticking around for. Tim proves that the most powerful brands are built through thousands of small, genuine human moments. And the leaders who get that do more than lead people, they inspire them to stay. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism.

• 1:54Simon Sinek?

  No joke, I've been looking forward to this conversation more than anybody else on the roster. And mainly because you are charming, wonderful, and tell amazing stories. And the day I met you, I was like, oh, more of this, please.

• 2:07Speaker 00

  Wow, that's so kind. That is amazing. I need to make sure I send my friendship fees over.

• 2:13Simon Sinek?

  No, it's 100% true. Let's start from the beginning, I guess. You have basically had one job in your life, right? Basically.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Basically.

• 2:21Simon Sinek?

  Which was with the LA Lakers for a long time.

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, so I guess technically I started initially at the Forum where the Lakers played. And then I trended, so I was working on the Lakers, more of an emphasis on the building. And then I moved over to the Lakers mid 90s. But essentially same company since 1990. I worked from 90 until two months ago.

• 2:44Simon Sinek?

  It's a rare thing for people to have one job for such a long, for such a long time.

• 2:49Speaker 00

  I don't think you, it's, it's super rare. I don't think you see it.

• 2:52Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  Very often.

• 2:53Simon Sinek?

  I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a bygone era.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, I mean, it's.

• 2:58Simon Sinek?

  Giving, giving your life to a company.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, it's a throwback to sort of my father, right? It's a throwback to aerospace, you know, start, move up, gold watch, move on, right?

• 3:09Simon Sinek?

  Funny you say that, you know, I talk about the gold watch and there's an entire generation who, when we say the gold watch, they have no idea what we're talking about. And I've tested it. I've said, hey, how many of you know what?

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 3:21Simon Sinek?

  So we know what the gold watches, which is you work for however many years, decades for one company, and upon your retirement, they give you a gold watch.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  That's what you got.

• 3:30Simon Sinek?

  That's what you got. That was sort of like the thing. Yeah, there's an entire generation that has no idea what the gold watch is, what the euphemism is, and the thought of giving your entire life to one company is sort of like horrendous.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Doesn't that go back my dad's time? Doesn't that go back be, you did that because then you got your pension?

• 3:48Simon Sinek?

  I'm sure there were multiple things that went into it.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:51Simon Sinek?

  Pensions obviously are part of it. I don't think all companies had pensions, but they were definitely more common back then. But I also think that it was a time before mass layoffs and before quarterly earnings and before shareholder supremacy.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:06Simon Sinek?

  Where everybody was trying to build a good company for the long term and make the best products they could. And the general business philosophies were, we'll take care of our people, our people will take care of us.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:16Simon Sinek?

  And so there was no reason. To bail on a regular basis because you were safe.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Correct, correct.

• 4:24Simon Sinek?

  I'm very curious, I actually don't know this. I know that you played soccer.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Yes, I did.

• 4:28Simon Sinek?

  And were you planning on going pro? Is that what you were thinking, what you wanted to do? Did you want to be an athlete?

• 4:33Speaker 00

  I did, and I did, and I did. And that's how it ended up. I went to UCLA, okay? And when I was coming out of UCLA, there were, there were two soccer leagues in the US. One was the North American Soccer League, was the NASL. And that was the league that had Pelé.

• 4:51Simon Sinek?

  Old Pelé.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  The old Pelé.

• 4:52Simon Sinek?

  But like actually old Pelé.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  Yes, right, with the Cosmos, right?

• 4:56Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  And that league was, at the time I got drafted, that league was struggling.

• 5:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  The other league that was sort of propping up soccer in the early, mid eighties was the major indoor soccer league. And the whole idea was you play this sort of, you know, version of soccer in an arena. And the idea at the time was to fill dates in an arena. And at the time in 84, it was on fire. In some cities, the MISL was outdrawing the NBA team.

• 5:32Simon Sinek?

  Wow.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  It was on fire. I got drafted in both leagues.

• 5:35Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  I got drafted in the NASL and I got drafted by, in the MISL.

• 5:39Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  And I really wanted to play in the outdoor version, but I, it wasn't long for it. And I said, okay, if I'm going to continue this, I'll just do the indoor version. And I got drafted by the team that was owned by Dr. Buss, who owned the Lakers. And played at the Forum. Okay?

• 5:57Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, I'm seeing where this is going.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Dr. Buss was a huge fan of it. And he would visit the locker room. And this is 84, 85, Showtime, the Lakers are, are on fire. And so when Dr. Buss came in the locker room, and that's a big celebrity coming to the locker room. And I remember this one time he would make his rounds and say hello. And I said, Dr. Bus, how many people did we have here tonight? And like, like he would know, I mean, he's the owner of the Lakers. He doesn't know how many the indoor soccer team drew.

• 6:31Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  I'm sure he just pulled a number out of somewhere. And I said, do we make money?

• 6:37Simon Sinek?

  You're a player.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  I'm a player. And I said, do, you know, I'm like this kid.

• 6:41Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  I said, do we make money?

• 6:42Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  And I don't remember his answer.

• 6:46Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  But he went back to his daughter, Jeannie. Hey, there's this kid on the soccer team who's got an interesting curiosity about the business. And that's how I established a relationship with the forum and the bus family. And then when Jeannie, who at the time was running, she was doing tennis and volleyball exhibitions. She was in need of a, someone who could help sell sponsorships. And her father said, what about that kid?

• 7:17Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 7:18Speaker 00

  And so that's how I started at the forum is selling tennis and volleyball sponsorships for exhibitions. And I didn't know anything, except just sort of, I had kind of a gift of gab and I could work hard. And that's how I started.

• 7:30Simon Sinek?

  I love it. And then all the way up to the president of the Lakers.

• 7:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:35Simon Sinek?

  You know, you and I met just socially, you know, we just met for lunch for no, no reason whatsoever.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 7:40Simon Sinek?

  You really have been on a leadership journey. Who modeled leadership for you? Like, where did you learn it? Where did you get it? Was it a coach? Was it a parent? Did it come at work? Like, because you, you are one of those leaders that I get to write about, you know?

• 7:54Speaker 00

  I coach, I coach my kids. I've coached in the past. Obviously I played and I, and I played for a lot of coaches. And I think that coaching is a form of leadership and, and, and I 100% bring a lot of how I coach into how I lead a team in, in the business world.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  And I I got a lot of those different principles through coaching because they translate so well from team sports to business and how you motivate employees.

• 8:28Simon Sinek?

  The the biggest one being you don't play on the field.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 8:31Simon Sinek?

  Which I think a lot of leaders forget.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  Correct. And it's it's this notion that a good coach is over there.

• 8:39Simon Sinek?

  Right, right.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  A good coach is over there, offering encouragement and and advice and suggestions. A good coach is not standing next to you, micromanaging every move. It's impossible.

• 8:53Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  There has to be a a distance and a good coach gives it his or her players authority to go with the responsibility.

• 9:03Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. The thing that I find amazing about some of the winning most coaches in history, and you look at John Wooden and others like him, that sports, which is a finite game and the goal, actually, the goal is to win, that the coaches themselves, these winning most coaches ever, were not obsessed with winning. They were obsessed with the team. They're obsessed with the esprit de corps and all of those things. And I guess in your experience in sports and in business, that's hard, right? That's hard to put aside what is the actual purpose of the end of the season. And to be like, nope, I just care about the team. Like, where does that come from in some leaders? And I don't just mean in sports, but in in business as well. Like, that ability to be like, it's okay. Focus on each other. Focus on taking care of, you know, the fundamentals. Everything will work out. Like,

• 9:49Simon Sinek?

  I struggle with that as well.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  We all do.

• 9:51Simon Sinek?

  It's really hard when the pressures are there and the goals are there and, you know, you disagree with decisions, you know?

• 9:58Speaker 00

  The ability to to every day have sort of the long view of what success looks like and not try to day trade in success.

• 10:07Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  Right? And what I just said, right then, I could have been talking about team sports or I could have been talking about business.

• 10:13Simon Sinek?

  But there's a game and there's a season. Infinite, like the infinite mindset. I mean, I wrote about the infinite game and the infinite mindset to relieve the stress of needing to play with a finite mindset when there is no finish line. But in sports, legit, there is an end of the season and you want to be ahead.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  I think so much of that, so much of it is controllable. Now, in sports. There's talent and talent is talent, right? And sometimes you're just outmatched talent wise. But so much of your ability to have success today and throughout the season is is within your control.

• 10:47Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  Right? And it's and it's the coach's job to define what that looks like. I think the best coaches and the best leaders, they they define your role. Like good teams and good businesses, the members of the team understand what my role is.

• 11:06Simon Sinek?

  That's interesting.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  They understand what my job is.

• 11:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Right? This is your job. And I I used to say all the time is like if we're a baseball team and the right fielder decides to come stand next to the pitcher, just because the right fielder wants to stand next to the pitcher, we're in trouble if the ball gets hit to right field. Right? Because that's that's the the right fielder not doing their role, not fulfilling their role.

• 11:29Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Okay. And so in order for us to be successful, then we need you and you and you and you to to do your role to help the collective. Okay, now now I get it. I understand you want to be a pitcher, right fielder. So independent of you fulfilling your role as the right fielder for us today, for us to be successful today and for the long term, let's talk separately about your desire to be a pitcher.

• 11:54Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  And how we can try and help you achieve your goal and your aim, your desire to be a pitcher, while also fulfilling your role as a right fielder.

• 12:04Simon Sinek?

  So let's translate this to business now because I'm guilty of this, which is because I'm very comfortable in chaos. I'm just like, just get it done.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:11Simon Sinek?

  And, you know, when you have a little bit of scale and a little bit of momentum, now all of a sudden you have divisions of labor and people doing multiple things and the roles aren't clear. And I think you're right, especially when people have ambition, they're like, oh, I'm going to do more of this because that's what I want to do.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 12:25Simon Sinek?

  Even though we need that, this idea that you can do both, but by having the clearly articulated roles.

• 12:30Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 12:30Simon Sinek?

  It seems so basic and I think most companies do do it. I think most companies do a bad job of it or most company or a lot of companies don't do it. I was a late learner to this one, like having to write everything down in crystal clear terms what someone's role is. You've had the opportunity to work with some of the greats in in sports and basketball. And even if people aren't basketball fans, they've heard of LeBron James, they've heard of Kobe Bryant, they've heard of these names. What did you learn from them? Like, what did you learn from Kobe?

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh. Kobe had this incredible ability to compartmentalize. Kobe understood what what the goal was at any given point in time. And he understood the role that I Kobe need to play in order for I Kobe to be successful and for the group to be successful. And that that role can change Kobe as the person in that moment.

• 13:27Simon Sinek?

  Give me an example.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  So we have three boys. And when we were at we were at a game and our oldest Jude, he basketball player. And he was he was a young guy. And Jude's as sweet and as nice as of a human being you'd ever want to meet. I used to say to Joel, my wife, like, he needs a little more grit. Holistically, we're trying to raise you nice young men. But wish he had a little more grit. Right? And that nice young man part is going to serve him well. But when he's playing basketball, wish he had a little more grit. And so we were at the arena before a game and Kobe was standing there. We he would say hello and he asked Jude how he's doing. And Jude says, good playing da, da, da. And and I said, you know, Kobe, he needs a little more bite. And Kobe's standing next to the sideline. Kobe's standing on the court next to the sideline.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  And he said, Jude, this is how I look at it.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  When I'm on the court, asshole. And he literally stepped off of the court. Nice guy. Step back on asshole. Step back off, nice guy. He said, Jude, you can be both. You can be both because you are this. Does not mean you cannot be that.

• 14:37Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  I think professional athletes at the highest level have this amazing ability to compartmentalize. And to leave whatever is going on in here or out there, they check it at the door.

• 14:51Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. It's the thing I find amazing about professional sports, which is the talent, like there's, there's lots of great golfers. There's lots of great tennis players, but caving under the pressure.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 15:01Simon Sinek?

  And these elite athletes, sure, they've got amazing talent, but it's the mental fortitude that they don't cave under the pressure. That I find particularly astonishing, you know, bottom of the ninth, you're down by two runs, there's, you know, two outs, you know, winning run on base. And you hit a home run, like, where does that come from?

• 15:20Speaker 00

  I'm not an elite athlete. I've never been one at that level.

• 15:24Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  And but I think the elite, elite athletes, they don't, they don't focus on bottom of the ninth, I need to hit a home run.

• 15:31Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  I don't know what they focus on, but I think all they focus on is what are the fundamentals? What do I need to do in this pitch?

• 15:39Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  It's not, I'm worried about this at bat, I'm worried about this pitch.

• 15:42Simon Sinek?

  So what they're doing is they're taking the stakes off.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:44Simon Sinek?

  I read, I, I read, I, we all say, I read a thing, I probably saw it on the Instagram, but I found this very interesting. A guy who did a study about elite tennis players. What he did was he looked at, I think, the top 20 or 25 tennis players in the world. And the reality is, it's only the top 10.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 16:01Simon Sinek?

  That keep cycling through.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 16:03Simon Sinek?

  Even though the top 25 are still on the list. So how come the bottom 15, the best in the world, the 16, 17, 18 best, how come they don't cycle up to, to the finals? Right? They all have sponsors, they all got, have access to resource. They all have the best coaches, they all have the best equipment, they all have the best diets, like it's all even Steven, right? And what he learned was these, the, the, the, the top echelon.

• 16:32Simon Sinek?

  Have a love for the game that when they win a point, they go, ah, I love this game.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:39Simon Sinek?

  And when they lose a point, they go, lost that one, but you just wait for the next one. Individually, they save tiny bits of energy because they're just. There's a they're more relaxed. They're not carrying that stress. And by the time you get to the end, that has now built up and you have way more energy to play.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 16:55Simon Sinek?

  So it's, yes, it's partially mindset, but it's also the ability to just be relaxed throughout the whole game.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  In the moment.

• 17:03Simon Sinek?

  And love the game each moment.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 17:05Simon Sinek?

  And not take the loss of a point like it's the end of the world. It's a point.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  It's one point.

• 17:10Simon Sinek?

  It's a point and I'll, you just wait for the next one.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 17:13Simon Sinek?

  And that joy is what separated, he found, the, the most elite athletes from everybody else. And I wonder if it's the same in all athletics.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  I would, I think so.

• 17:22Simon Sinek?

  Basketball, there's stars and then there's kind of like everybody else.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, everything's about the details, right? It's always going to be about what are the intangibles that you're doing? That, that if you can stack those things over and over and over, how many times can you multiply behavior? Right? Can you multiply consistently? I, I was in the, I was in the gym once and at one in Austin Reeves was shooting threes. And at the other end, a G League player was shooting threes independently. And they're both making them. Swish, swish.

• 17:53Simon Sinek?

  What's, what's G League?

• 17:54Speaker 00

  G League is the, the minor league.

• 17:55Simon Sinek?

  Minor league for basketball.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  They're both consistent.

• 17:58Simon Sinek?

  So you've got a star starter Laker and a G League guy, both shooting threes.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  Both shooting threes, independent.

• 18:05Simon Sinek?

  Got it.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Both making baskets, basket, basket, basket. And I thought, what is the difference?

• 18:10Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Why is Austin Reeves, Austin Reeves?

• 18:13Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  And this, this young man is, is, is, is trying to bust through to have the opportunity to be Austin Reeves. And, and it has to be the intangibles. They're both talented. They're both making a bunch of baskets.

• 18:26Simon Sinek?

  NBA.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Correct. They're both good, but what is it that allows Austin to be Austin? I think it's, it's the totality of it. When you're talking about a great anything, it's the totality of it. They don't waste time.

• 18:39Simon Sinek?

  Cause I'm trying to now like, obviously, and now I want to get off the court and come.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:42Simon Sinek?

  Cause you ran a business.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:44Simon Sinek?

  I mean, uh, you weren't, you weren't in the locker room. You ran, you ran the business for the Lakers. I'm curious, you know, is that the same at work? Are there people who like the way they manage stress, the way they show up as a team? Like it's the slow and steady.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:59Simon Sinek?

  Do you see two extremely talented people, but for some reason one, why won't one rise to the top? And there's a frustration. That builds in because people know they're talented, then why aren't they bubbling up? Now, we're assuming good leadership.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 19:13Simon Sinek?

  Politics and stuff like that, but you know, all things being fair and equal in a, in a good environment. I guess what I'm, I'm trying to get at is somebody who's led at the highest levels and had incredible success in business. You know, what lessons can I discern as a leader on how to foster my talent, recognize my talent, see the right things? Or how can I be the talent who's, I know I'm smart and talented. I know I've got a good work ethic. Why the heck am I not getting recognized?

• 19:41Speaker 00

  There's so much that goes into that. You have to give them enough grace to make mistakes, but not so much that they'll get, they'll make a, a career defining mistake. Right? You have to give them the ability to make these kind of mistakes that allow them to grow versus a mistake. That's gonna be damaging. It comes back to understanding their role. Do they understand their role? What you find in successful companies? Is employees who are in an incredible rush. And getting them to understand, slow down.

• 20:18Simon Sinek?

  But that's a generational thing too, right?

• 20:20Speaker 00

  It is a generational thing.

• 20:21Simon Sinek?

  And, and we don't need to go into all of those reasons, but you know, young people aren't wrong to keep looking for jobs because companies aren't loyal to them anymore.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Sometimes employees and young and old, they go looking for solutions when there's no problem. Because they think I need to do that. And, and it's understanding this notion between. Am I trying to encourage change or am I trying to encourage evolution?

• 20:46Simon Sinek?

  It's so hard, right? And, and again, I'm going to go back to sports. But if you just think about the greats, Michael Jordan was a profoundly different player from Kobe Bryant, from LeBron James. You know, and I watched that documentary, The Last Dance. I found it fascinating. And because Michael Jordan was not the person I thought he was.

• 21:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:07Simon Sinek?

  I thought he was this happy, smiley sweetheart of a man, because that was the brand he cultivated. And he was a fiercely competitive guy.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:16Simon Sinek?

  Who will happily take a few coins away from the security guards because he beat them gambling.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:22Simon Sinek?

  Just fierce competitor who would make up stories in his head about the other players. That they said stuff about him in the press just to be angry at them on the court.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 21:31Simon Sinek?

  And is that repeatable? Or is that like a once in a generation kind of talent?

• 21:36Speaker 00

  I'm not sure you could teach what you just said. I don't think you could say, here's your checklist of the things you need to do. And when you do these things, then you will be that.

• 21:44Simon Sinek?

  So you can't be like Mike?

• 21:48Speaker 00

  But I think you can encourage behavior that will elicit that if you have it.

• 21:54Simon Sinek?

  But I don't want to work with people like that in my company. I don't want to work with people who come in angry so that they can win.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  No, no, no, because then it becomes they're pulling against it. They're the right fielder who is trying to run and and make everyone's play. Do you know, in any endeavor, there are three unspoken words that will ruin any endeavor.

• 22:17Simon Sinek?

  Go on.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  As long as.

• 22:20Simon Sinek?

  Say more.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  I want you, Simon, I want you to fulfill this function for us on our team. If you fulfill this function, then we can be successful. Will you fulfill this function? Simon says, yeah, sure, of course. In his mind, he says, as long as I make more money than everybody else, as long as I get the credit, as long as I can be in charge. And translate that into any sporting situation. As long as are three words, the three unspoken words that can undo any endeavor.

• 23:01Simon Sinek?

  Because it's conditions. It's conditional.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  It's unspoken.

• 23:04Simon Sinek?

  It's conditional teamwork.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  Yes, and those three words, we all have a tendency to have them.

• 23:10Simon Sinek?

  Of course.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  But those three words, when you put them in your pocket and you carry them with you every day, it makes success so hard to achieve.

• 23:18Simon Sinek?

  I want to unpack this because this is good. So unfortunately, we can't hear what somebody is saying in their head. So when we say, I need to do this, they go, aye aye.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 23:27Simon Sinek?

  As long as, right? We don't know what they're saying. I know for me, as I'm listening to this, the times that I have said it, and we've all said it, the times that I've said it, instead of just getting away with it, what you're saying is check yourself. Why are you saying as long as? And if you're saying as long as you pay me more than everybody else. The question is, is am I feeling underappreciated? Um, am I feeling unworthy or unseen? Is this my ambition that I'm not meeting my own expectations?

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Right, right, right, right.

• 23:56Simon Sinek?

  And I think the, the idea of if I start saying to myself, as long as I want to inquire to myself, okay, where's that coming from? Or maybe I just hate this company and I'm just here temporarily, you know? But I want to check in with myself. That's a, that's a huge lesson right there.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Yes, it is.

• 24:12Simon Sinek?

  Because otherwise I become a conditional team player.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Okay, but yes, yes. But let's look at it. Simon is the, the team member and I'm the, the man, the leader of this team.

• 24:24Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  Because I think we have a tendency to all have as long as, okay? And it's just what we do with our as long as, right?

• 24:31Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  And how do I kind of manage that and, and, and try to make sure that I'm, I'm helpful to Simon? What I have found to useful for me and, and, and helpful, I, I think is I sit with team members and I say, hey, Simon, right now you're the, we're going to hire you, we're going to promote you. You're going to be, you are the director of ABC. Okay, you're the director of this. And this is what we expect you to do at such a, and Simon says, okay, that's great. I want to do that. And I say, okay, Simon, you're coming into this job. You've applied to be this job for the director of ABC. What's next? How does director of ABC set you up for the next thing? What's next after that?

• 25:15Speaker 00

  What is Simon looking to use director of ABC to become? Vice president of ABC? And what I do oftentimes is, is it's, it's a way of, of encouraging someone to have a little bit of self-reflection on their own journey. Okay, so if Simon says, look, I want to be the director of seat sales. And then I say, okay, that's, that's tremendous, Simon, because we think you could do that. What do you want to do next? What do you see that leading to? And Simon says, well, I want to be an astronaut. Okay, I don't know how that's going to help you, Simon. Okay, but if Simon says, look, I have huge aspirations as the director to within one year be a vice president and it's this, I need to do this.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Okay, Simon, how are we going to make that happen for you? How do, what are the things that we're going to be able to do to try to put you in a place so that you can try and achieve your goal? I think what we do is we do two things. We start pulling out the as long as we start pulling out of the pocket. And at the same time, Simon starts feeling a little bit more safe to share his ambition because as long as it's a condition, but it's an ambition.

• 26:24Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  Right, it's generally an ambition. It's not generally a negative. It's usually this is what I want for myself.

• 26:30Simon Sinek?

  Right, right, right.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  And so if Simon feels that Tim has created a safe space.

• 26:36Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  And an encouraging space.

• 26:37Simon Sinek?

  To be ambitious.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  And, and a, a, a sort of mentor type setting where Simon goes, look, he's, he's on my side here. He's going to help me.

• 26:45Simon Sinek?

  Can you do that for every person?

• 26:47Speaker 00

  It's difficult. It, it's hard to scale. What you can do is this, okay? If, if Simon is the vice president and I'm the president, I say, look, how can I help you? I'm going to encourage you to do the same.

• 26:56Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  And the, the vice president talks to the directors and the director and says the same thing. And the directors talk to the managers.

• 27:03Simon Sinek?

  Well, I think where it is scalable is each line of, of the hierarchy can take responsibility for the people in their care.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 27:10Simon Sinek?

  So I can't ask everybody on the entire team, tell me what your ambition is. I don't even work with everybody every day.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  Correct, it's impossible to scale.

• 27:16Simon Sinek?

  But, but you, but you can be scaled down, down to the, and somebody can say, they have to be safe enough to say, I don't know.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 27:24Simon Sinek?

  Like, I like my job, I like it here, but I don't know.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 27:27Simon Sinek?

  That's allowed too.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  I'm trying to learn, I'm trying to foster instinct.

• 27:29Simon Sinek?

  The LA Lakers are a remarkable organization, not just because of their success on the court, but their success off the court.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 27:34Simon Sinek?

  I think you did a lot of things to change and revolutionize that place and help make the franchise and the brand what it has become.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 27:44Simon Sinek?

  There are many things about your leadership style. I only know a few of the stories and I'm going to try and get more out of you because, because I learn from you every time I get to sit down with you. You told me one story. First of all, you don't sit courtside.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  No.

• 27:55Simon Sinek?

  You could, but you don't. You have your seats. They're above where the players come out. They're still good seats.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:01Simon Sinek?

  But they're back.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:03Simon Sinek?

  And those are your seats.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:04Simon Sinek?

  And you, you give all the better seats to, to, to others. And you told me a story of how now and then, especially when you've got a couple of extra courtside seats that are unused, you will go up into the rafters, specifically into the rafters. You'll look for a parent child.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:20Simon Sinek?

  Who, they got last minute tickets, or this is what they can afford, whatever the, the dynamic is. You're looking for that parent child experience and you tap them on the shoulder and you say, come with me. And before they know it, they're sitting on the courtside of an L.A. Lakers game. What was the first time you did that and what was the motivation?

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Probably the first time I did it was when we were at the new arena. And we had moved downtown from the Forum, so we were at Staples Center. And we had some extras and I just got, I had some time and I thought, I'm just gonna do this.

• 28:52Simon Sinek?

  I mean, you didn't call up your celebrity friends?

• 28:54Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 28:56Simon Sinek?

  Cause you know, sports teams like to have celebrities on the sides.

• 28:58Speaker 00

  Yes, and, and we, the Lakers have plenty. The sport of basketball is just the vehicle. That's the vehicle. This is the, the, the, the sports industry is a business of, of memories. Like, I don't know all the stories of the folks that I have helped for, over the years from time to time, but I think, you know, what, what if? Whatever else is going on in their life, this is the biggest thing for them. And all of a sudden, they get moved down to the floor from way, way, way up high because that was either the only thing they could afford or the only thing they could find. And all of a sudden, on this evening that the parent is, is trying to make special, it becomes life-changing.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  All because they got to move to a seat.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  How that completely changes the dynamic.

• 29:51Simon Sinek?

  So let me, let me put on my cold business hat.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:53Simon Sinek?

  The cynical hat that I know other people are thinking.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 29:56Simon Sinek?

  Right. Which is, you're giving away $10,000 worth of seats. Love that you're giving away memories.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:02Simon Sinek?

  Love that you're making sports about memories, but the long-term value of the ticket holders who spent, who bought the cheapest tickets in the stadium, in the arena, I don't have a lot of long-term value in those. They're probably not going to become season ticket holders.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:16Simon Sinek?

  The likelihood of them being able to afford front row tickets within a short period of time is low. That's a bad investment.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  Correct. If, if, and I, the financial person would say, why on earth are you doing this?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Okay, so it's, the game's at 7:30, it's 7 o'clock.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  Okay, it's 6:45. I've got two tickets in my pocket. Let's pretend they're $2,500 apiece. There's no one standing in line at the box office who's gonna buy, who's gonna spend $2,500 apiece.

• 30:49Simon Sinek?

  Correct.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  Right? So you're gonna, you're gonna eat those tickets.

• 30:52Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Right? The money is gonna be.

• 30:54Simon Sinek?

  The money's lost already.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  The money's lost already. So what can you do with that money? Right? Or what can you do with that opportunity? And the way I choose to, I've always chosen to believe this is this, is in the profit and loss statement, yes, that $5,000, $2,500 is gone. That opportunity is gone because the game's gonna be played and that opportunity is lost.

• 31:16Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  But we move those two people down.

• 31:19Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  They become evangelical.

• 31:22Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  And they tell two people and they go home and they tell and they tell and they tell.

• 31:26Simon Sinek?

  The Lakers is the greatest organization on the planet.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  And it scales, right? I believe that successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  It's not, there are giant movements, but supported by tiny little acts that just continue to grow the brand. Okay? And when you grow a brand, when a successful company becomes a successful brand, then they are worth more money.

• 31:54Simon Sinek?

  Okay, I'm gonna play.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  You with me?

• 31:55Simon Sinek?

  I'm gonna play this back.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  All right.

• 31:56Simon Sinek?

  Okay, so the, the argument is that if you're willing, it's kind of like exercise. If you're willing to just keep doing the little bits, it will build up. And if you just trust that you create evangelicals who will. You know, a rich person who gets to sit in good seats will tell a couple of friends, because, you know, I got to sit on, you know, I got to sit near the court. Where somebody who, the chances of them sitting by the court in their entire life is close to zero.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:21Simon Sinek?

  They will tell everyone.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:22Simon Sinek?

  And the goodwill that comes from how great this organization is even when the team loses.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 32:28Simon Sinek?

  How I love the Lakers. Ripples and ripples and ripples.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  I believe that.

• 32:33Simon Sinek?

  And the cost was actually zero because the money was sunk anyway.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Gone anyway.

• 32:38Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. If you've got, you know, a few thousand dollars worth of empty seats, you could eat it and just leave them empty. That is an option. Or you could take the risk to do one of these little acts. And you can't just do one. That's the problem.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  No, it's not. You cannot be a one off.

• 32:55Simon Sinek?

  You have to do it now and then.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:57Simon Sinek?

  And it has to have some consistency. And at some point, the brand starts to have more power and all of a sudden you're selling more merchandise and nobody can really point to exactly what it was because the team did fine last year, but for some reason, we're seeing merch doing really well.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 33:11Simon Sinek?

  And it wasn't directly tied to some championship. That these things, you know, this is where I think economists and, and sort of the internet of things and hypermetrics, which is not everything is easy to measure, but everything has an impact. And you're experimenting. You're not just, you're doing that and many other things.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  That's what it has to be. It has to be other.

• 33:29Simon Sinek?

  You're not taking a bet.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  No.

• 33:31Simon Sinek?

  Giving away tickets is the thing.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  When you explain your why.

• 33:34Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  To the organization.

• 33:36Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  The organization has to have the, the comfort and the, the feel the safety to do their own acts of kindness because now you get them to metastasize, right?

• 33:48Simon Sinek?

  Can I tell you a ripple that you created that you don't even know you created that is exactly this theory? The first time I met you, we sat down for lunch.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 33:57Simon Sinek?

  And you handed me a duffel bag.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:00Simon Sinek?

  Filled, filled with Lakers stuff.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:03Simon Sinek?

  More than I or my family could, could consume.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:06Simon Sinek?

  Right? T shirts and sweatshirts and what's not. My friends and family took what they wanted. You know, they picked at it like a, like vultures. I took what I wanted and I still have tons of stuff. And so I have that bag with stuff in it in my trunk. I'll go to a restaurant and the valet will come and bring my car to me.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:27Simon Sinek?

  And I'll be like, come with me. I'll pop the trunk open. I'll open the bag and say, take what you want. He'll hold up a. Eighty dollar jacket is like, can I have this? I'm like, you can have that. Right? And I like drive away and I see him with his Lakers jacket on, right? And so now, simply because you gave me a bunch of stuff that I didn't throw away. And I continue to give away to people who want it, not just randos, like people who like, do you want something from the Lakers? Oh, my God, I love the Lakers, right? And so now, these ripples of goodwill from the Lakers continue to spread. And I say, oh, the Lakers gave it to me, I'm gonna give it to you.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  It's a great feeling. Have I ever, have I, have I ever told you about caught you being a Laker?

• 35:07Simon Sinek?

  No.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  I never told you about God being a Laker? So, pre pandemic, I had this thought for a while. It must be so frustrating if you're a Laker employee and you go to a barbecue, because if you go to a barbecue and you're a Laker employee and somebody says, what do you do? And you say, I work for the Lakers. First question generally is, well, how do you get free tickets? Like, not every employee is just like, yeah, I got, I got tickets everywhere. And I, I thought in a moment, they're like,

• 35:33Simon Sinek?

  Like you're a king.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  I feel, I work for the Lakers. No, I don't really. And so, we created this program that I'd wanted, and it was called Caught You Being a Laker. And what it was, is we gave every employee these two cards that were built out and they look like, you know, the size of an ATM card, but they're made of cards. And it said Caught You Being a Laker and stuff, and it had some details on the back. And every employee got two. And every card was worth, was good for two free tickets. And the goal was, if you're out in the city and you see someone shooting baskets wearing a Laker shirt, if you see someone at the mall and they're wearing a Laker hat, you can walk up and you can say, you know, hi.

• 36:14Simon Sinek?

  I caught you being a Laker.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  I work for the Lakers and I wanna tell you, I just caught you being a Laker and I wanna send you to a game.

• 36:21Simon Sinek?

  That's brilliant.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Okay? And, and the idea is, it's, it's evangelical. And the best part, the magic part of it is, you don't promote it.

• 36:31Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  You don't, you don't turn around and turn the camera on yourself.

• 36:35Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  You let it just happen.

• 36:36Simon Sinek?

  It's not a PR stunt.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  No, no, because that's not what it is. It's not a PR stunt.

• 36:40Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Right?

• 36:41Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  And the first weekend we did it, the following Monday, there's a knock on my door and Steve, who works in the mailroom, came in.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  And he's crying. And I said, Steve, what's wrong? He said, Tim, I did it this weekend. I went out and I saw a father and a son shooting hoops and the kid had a jersey on. And I went up and I told him, I've caught you being a Laker and I want to give you this. And I said, Steve, that's so amazing. Tell me what hap- like, I want to know what happened. He said, Timmy, the little boy started crying. And the dad started crying because we can never get to a game and we can't ever find tickets. And Steve says, so then I start crying. Steve said, Tim, th- thank you for letting us do this because I felt so proud to be able to go out in the community and do this for someone.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  It can't just be the Tim of the world going up and handing out two tickets. This is Steve, the mailroom guy going around in the community. So now, the only rule was you had to share your story.

• 37:43Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  And if you could get a picture.

• 37:45Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  That was it. And then you could get more. Steve and others, they became addicted to this.

• 37:50Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  They're out on the weekend trying to find people. Because it was, it was, it was a rush for them.

• 37:54Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. I think what sports has that a lot of companies don't, which is an advantage to you, and it's a warning or a shot across the bow for regular companies, which is your customer, and I'm not to demean the, the fan, but your customer, the person who pays, who buys, is right there.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:13Simon Sinek?

  They're screaming and they're yelling. And you have that very close contact with them. You can easily identify your customer.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:21Simon Sinek?

  Out in the market.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:22Simon Sinek?

  You know, a lot of companies can't see their customers. They don't have daily access to their customers. Their customers don't fill arenas multiple times a week. And we forget that the customers are people. We forget that they have families and emotions and ambitions. And they become just dollars and cents and returns on investments.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:41Simon Sinek?

  And that's how we treat them. That's how they feel treated. I'll give you a really funny, uh, example. I was flying home from Toronto and the customs is on the Toronto side. And so you have to get to the airport really early because sometimes the customs line is insanely long.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:56Simon Sinek?

  Right? And so I got through really quickly, which never happens. Which means I was actually early enough to make the, uh, the earlier flight. So I went up to the Air Canada counter. I was flying Air Canada. And I said, hey, I managed to get through really early. Do you have seats on the earlier flight? She goes, we do. I'm like, great. Can I get on the earlier flight, please? Go to the same airport?

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 39:17Simon Sinek?

  She goes, that'll be $600. I'm like, No, no, no, I'm just, I'm just gonna get on the earlier flight. You know, I've done this a million times. Every airline lets you take empty seats.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 39:27Simon Sinek?

  She goes, it's $600. I said, look, I'm not gonna pay the $600, clearly, right? So I'm either gonna just wait here, or you'll let me on the plane. And she goes, well, then you're gonna have to wait. I said, I said, I just have to ask. What you're telling me is you would rather send an empty seat back to New York, rather than make a customer happy and be able to get home an hour earlier.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 39:47Simon Sinek?

  Right? I'm just, I just, I'm just checking in with you, right? She goes, sir, this is a business, right? That's literally what she said to my face.

• 39:56Simon Sinek?

  Now, I don't fault her for it.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  No.

• 39:58Simon Sinek?

  Because her leaders and her leaders' leaders and her leaders' leaders are telling them, you treat that human being like a line item on a spreadsheet, because this is a business. One of the reasons I love spending time with you and one of the things that I learned from you, and it's a huge reminder, and that's what I've, I sort of, why I wanted you to come on here.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:16Simon Sinek?

  Which is, it's to remind us that business is always human.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:23Simon Sinek?

  Even if you're in a B to B space, a human being will make a purchase, will be the client.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:30Simon Sinek?

  That at some point, you cannot avoid the human being.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 40:35Simon Sinek?

  And the more you understand that people are messy and people are, have insecurities and ambitions and desires and dreams, and if every now and then, if you can find ways, whether it's caught you being a Laker, or bringing people down from the upper deck, down to the front, and many of the other things that you did, what you are reminding yourselves is to show up every day for the human beings who like to buy your product.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  The Lakers are a gigantic international brand.

• 40:59Simon Sinek?

  Yep.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  That has a gigantic international fan base.

• 41:03Simon Sinek?

  Yep.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  1%, 1% of the fan base ever gets to actually go to a game live.

• 41:10Simon Sinek?

  It's too, it's too, right?

• 41:11Speaker 00

  You have to remember that, get out of the arena. You cannot treat this like some sort of monolith, right? You have to get out and remember that what you're doing impacts people who are watching you.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  But you don't know they're watching you, but you have to know, you have to accept that they're watching you and every single

• 41:32Simon Sinek?

  And it's not just ratings.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  No, and it's every single interaction that you have has to be genuine because, okay, it's Jenga.

• 41:41Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  It's Jenga, right? Okay, so you have your organization, you have your brand and you're the person at the airline. That right then for you, okay, the whatever airline, ABC airline.

• 41:53Simon Sinek?

  By the way, I'm now telling stories about Air Canada on air. I mean, that's what happens.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 42:00Simon Sinek?

  I mean, it cuts both ways.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  Because it's Jenga.

• 42:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  Okay, Air Canada's Jenga.

• 42:04Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Lost a

• 42:06Simon Sinek?

  Lost a brick.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Lost a brick.

• 42:07Simon Sinek?

  You can only lose so many bricks.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  The next day, they did the same thing to somebody else. Air Canada's Jenga lost another brick. You don't know.

• 42:15Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  When the last brick gets pulled.

• 42:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  So you can't play with that. It's fragile.

• 42:22Simon Sinek?

  And companies confuse good times for being intelligent.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:25Simon Sinek?

  If the Lakers are winning and you're selling a lot of tickets and you're selling a lot of merch, that doesn't mean the company is functioning. That means the team is winning.

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Yes, that means the basketball players are playing really well.

• 42:35Simon Sinek?

  But you're building a big business to survive when you're winning and when you're not winning.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Yes, and the thing is you can't run, in my opinion, you cannot run a basketball team or a sports organization like a utility.

• 42:47Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Right? You need us, utility, therefore we're going to treat you however we feel like treating you.

• 42:54Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  Because we are a business airline.

• 42:56Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  No, you cannot do that because then, then everywhere they're pulling away the Jenga and then one day it falls and it's far harder to build it back up than it is to keep it up.

• 43:09Simon Sinek?

  How did you learn this? I mean, with all the pressures you have to lead a, as you said, a global powerhouse of a brand. The pressures on you, I have to believe, were unbelievable. And the financial ambitions and the pressures on you from the organization were huge as well. I mean, that's your job is to grow the enterprise.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  The leader I am now is not always the leader I was. It's an evolutionary thing, right? You evolved to what it is. Like, leading is not a tangible thing, right? It's not something you can hold on to. You don't get a license. You don't get a, here's your leadership passport. And now you're good as a leader for five years until it's time to renew it. And then we'll let you know.

• 43:48Simon Sinek?

  Oh, my God, I wish that were the case.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  And so you don't.

• 43:51Simon Sinek?

  Such a good idea.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  You don't get that. At some point, I found a calmness in, in how I approach it. And I, 100%, and I learned this.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  You know, gosh, my wife, Shol, always, always reminds me with coaching. You know, like, I'd be coaching a kid's team and I, you know, they're not doing this. And this, this kid's not trying and this. And she would say, but, you know, just meet them where they are. Like, I know they're not being the athlete you want them to be. Meet them where they are. And I, I took that and applied that to the workplace. Like, I want to meet each person where they are. But I don't want to just meet each employee where they are. I want to meet each business partner where they are. I want to meet each ticket holder where they are, right? Because everyone has a different viewpoint. There's a French author from years and years ago, Anais Nin.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  And she would say, we don't see things as they are. We see them as we are. And that's so true. And so every single interaction is, is different. And taking from Shol, I had to learn, meet them, meet every single person where they are.

• 45:02Simon Sinek?

  So reconcile that with accountability.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 45:05Simon Sinek?

  Because a cynic listening to Meet Them Where They Are might hear that as, nobody's held accountable.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  100% no, 100% no. That is the.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  The unspoken agreement that we're gonna have, there's going to be, look, I'm going to, I am going to treat you like a human being, okay? I am not going to treat you like a disposable, changeable employee, okay? But you have to do your part too. What are you doing to help us as you are trying to help you? There has to absolutely be an accounting. It can't just be chaos.

• 45:41Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  You know, there has to be.

• 45:42Simon Sinek?

  I've made this mistake.

• 45:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, there has to be order.

• 45:44Simon Sinek?

  I ran a hippie commune. That's what my business was like.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  It has to be orderly.

• 45:48Simon Sinek?

  I tried so hard to be nice to everybody that we couldn't meet deadlines. There was no accountability and it just didn't work. I over indexed on meet people where they are, you know? And what I realized was that I thought I was actually doing people a service. And what I realized is it actually was bad for the people who worked there because nobody had any sense of accomplishment. Nobody had a sense of, we did this. Nobody had a sense of difficulty in like getting through something. And so when we started to add accountability to the mix, still meeting people where they're but adding accountability, the quality of the team went up, the quality of the work went up, the morale went up and we could actually meet deadlines and get work done. So it's, and what I've learned is like, people want to accomplish and they want to do good.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Do you know what people crave? Crave? People crave caring structure.

• 46:35Simon Sinek?

  Caring structure, that's such a nice way of putting it.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  They do.

• 46:38Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  They do, they do. People want, they want boundaries.

• 46:43Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  Look at every child who's gone, who's gone off, you know, sort of.

• 46:48Simon Sinek?

  Boundaryless.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  And, and you look at that and, and they're like, well, they have no boundaries. Kids will push them, they'll fight against it, but they crave them. They need them. There's safety in it, there's comfort in it. Employees are the same thing. And accountability, yes, sometimes you have to hug them with arms wrapped in barbed wire. Right? But you're still hugging them.

• 47:12Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  And they know it, right? They know it because.

• 47:16Simon Sinek?

  Well, you're, you're talking about having difficult conversations.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I tell anybody who worked for me in, in, in the Lakers. You're a young parent, you're, you're a young person, you're, you're whatever. If I ever find out.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  That you missed one of your kids' games, a play, a recital, something that your mom or dad were doing? Because you were at work?

• 47:41Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  We're gonna have a problem.

• 47:43Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Because when all is said and done, whatever took place that one day at work is not going to be as important as these things, because these things have an expiration date.

• 47:53Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  However, that's the accountability part. And if you can, this goes back to, to understanding roles, setting expectations.

• 48:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Giving people grace, understanding that I'm gonna see you as a human being and see you where you want to go and how you want to be and what you want to do as a person. And I'm gonna encourage you and help you get there.

• 48:13Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  When you have that, this two-way street, okay? They, they want to protect that relationship.

• 48:19Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  And so they're not going to abuse it.

• 48:21Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  So accountability tends to take care of itself because they want to protect that environment because it doesn't happen very often.

• 48:28Simon Sinek?

  So good. I'm not letting you leave here without telling some, as you can tell, I'm not a basketball fan. Like, I can name like three players from the Lakers. I apologize. I know Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but that was a long time.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 48:38Simon Sinek?

  That was a very long time ago, probably before you were there. But like Kobe and LeBron, like, I can't let you live here without telling some of your favorite stories of them, things that you've learned from them.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  The thing, both of them, different eras, right?

• 48:50Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  I mean, LeBron was coming in, was Kobe was sort of starting to transition out. And both incredibly prepared. You know what athletes do, great athletes? They do their work in the dark. They do their work when no one knows. That's where the great ones get great. Like, you see them, right? And they're great, but the, you talk about sort of the difference between Austin Reeves and the G League guy. The great ones do their work when no one's looking and no one is seeing it. That's what separates them. And those two guys, that's what they do. Kobe was ridiculous. I, I heard this story about Kobe. He retires. It's his last game.

• 49:35Speaker 00

  Okay, he has this incredible last game, you know? It, it's just an insane capping of a monumental career. And he lived in Newport Beach. And he left and got home about 2:00.

• 49:51Simon Sinek?

  Wow.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  He was in the gym at 4:30.

• 49:54Simon Sinek?

  Wow.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  The next day.

• 49:57Speaker 00

  Because it doesn't turn off.

• 49:59Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, for better or for worse.

• 50:01Speaker 00

  That's just, that's just who he is.

• 50:04Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Right? When you have these kind of positions like I have, where I had with the Lakers is you're around these like amazing human beings, you're around people like Phil Jackson. Here's the one thing that, you know, great leaders, great coaches, it's human first. It's always human first. They care about the human. Read about Phil Jackson, he cared about the human being.

• 50:28Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  You have to love them in order to win.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  You don't need to win in order to be loved.

• 50:34Simon Sinek?

  You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is,

• 50:41Simon Sinek?

  that is about as good as it gets.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  That's.

• 50:43Simon Sinek?

  You have to love them in order to win. You do not have to win in order to be loved. I love that.

• 50:49Simon Sinek?

  A couple of last questions for you.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  Yes, sir.

• 50:50Simon Sinek?

  You've played a key role in ushering in one of the most dominant teams in the NBA. When you look back, what memories stand out that make the Lakers the Lakers?

• 50:59Speaker 00

  The winning is like the easy one is winning. Right? It's the easy is the joy of the winning. You know, the championships are amazing. Right when you win a championship and you're standing on the court and it's chaos. I used to say to employees, stop.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Like stop. And I know it's chaos. But let it be chaos for 30 seconds and just look around and take it in.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  And I don't mean look around from a macro level. Like stop on people's faces and look at the joy that they're experiencing. Because that's what you're going to take with you. You're not going to take that you had to run and get 30 hats over to the players. The hats will get there. Stop and take a moment.

• 51:51Simon Sinek?

  Be present.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  And be present and look. And that's the joy of how a fanbase can surround itself on a team. The place where I saw it was born in tragedy. And that's when we lost Kobe. And you saw the impact of what an individual, not, not a player who had scored a bunch of points.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  But what an individual can have on organization and how that can bring people together. That's when you saw this team is special. This organization is special. This organization impacts.

• 52:33Simon Sinek?

  What an amazing, amazing, amazing journey.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Unbelievable. The stories that I've, you know, I've been able to experience and places I've seen and the people I've met and the, just the people I've watched grow up.

• 52:51Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 00

  In the arena.

• 52:53Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  Right? Incredible.

• 52:55Simon Sinek?

  You're so good. I wish more leaders were like you. I do.

• 53:01Speaker 00

  Really?

• 53:01Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, I do. I think you're, I think you're a dying breed. Whether it's because you spent your life at one company or it's how you were raised as a leader. Your type used to be more common and they're becoming less common.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Because

• 53:17Speaker 00

  I think pressure.

• 53:18Simon Sinek?

  Maybe it's your personality or maybe, maybe it's not your personality. Maybe it's that we have created work environments that disincentivize and disallow leaders like you and, and, and the, the kind of leaders that I get to write about and celebrate, you know, from showing up and it's not how business should be.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Have we lost all patience?

• 53:39Simon Sinek?

  Say more? What do you mean by that?

• 53:41Speaker 00

  Well, we look more like we're day trading than investing. Have we lost patience?

• 53:45Simon Sinek?

  Oh yeah, we don't invest. We gamble. Investing is like I hold on to it.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 53:49Simon Sinek?

  And I'm in, like I invest in education. I invest in my children's future.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:53Simon Sinek?

  I invest in the stock market. What we do is predominantly gambling.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 53:57Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  I struggle with this and, and I'm, I've not been in these situations as it's over on the sporting side, but you know, this whole notion that coaches are hired to be fired. Okay.

• 54:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 54:08Speaker 00

  And I think there's a point in time when you hire a coach in any sport. And you have the press conference and you're so excited and there's so much optimism and this coach, there is a reason that that coach is standing at the podium. That you're so filled with optimism that this coach is going to be the one who does whatever. And you've had meetings and interviews prior to that where you've, you, you've presumably laid out, these are the things we want to do and this is where we need to go to. And the coach has told you what kids are going to get there and that you've arrived at the, okay, this is the person who can do this.

• 54:43Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  And then after a year, things don't work out, or two years, things don't work out, or three years, at some point, you fire him, fire this coach. Three years ago, this was the person who was going to take you to the promised land.

• 54:56Simon Sinek?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  What changed?

• 54:58Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  That now we're firing this coach?

• 55:00Simon Sinek?

  And Unceremoniously and reasonably quickly.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  And were there conversations that said, look, when we interviewed you, you said you were going to do these things, and you're not doing them, why?

• 55:12Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  Or the coach says, look, three years ago, when you interviewed me, you said you were going to do these things to support, and you didn't do these.

• 55:20Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  Why? If a year in, you're saying, hey, coach, a year ago, you said you were going to do these three things, and you're not doing them. Why? Well, I, for whatever reason, or, okay, well, let's get back to that. Like, why don't we manage our coaches? And why don't we manage our leaders? Why don't we manage the heads of companies? Right? Why do we blame the person and not the problem? Why don't we work with them like we work with employees? Like, why do we just?

• 55:48Simon Sinek?

  Because I think unless there's a wholesale change in the incentive structures, there's no incentive to be.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  So, well, oftentimes, coaches are fired because it's, it's the, the way that the, the GM is saving their, they're like buying more time themselves and what have you.

• 56:06Simon Sinek?

  I mean, that's about right. You and I could talk about this forever.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:11Simon Sinek?

  All I know is I'm glad you exist.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  I so appreciate this.

• 56:20Simon Sinek?

  As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to A Bit of Optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. And if you want more cool stuff, or just to find out what I'm up to, visit simonsinek.com. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.