132: How to Win in Battle, Business, and Life with The 36 "Strategems." The Spirit of Wu.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:55 - The 36 Strategems. 1:13:43 - Final thoughts and take-aways 1:15:28 - Support 1:36:50 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 132 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  "The warriors are all dead.

• 0:16Jocko Willink?

  They lie on the moor field.

• 0:20Jocko Willink?

  They struggled but shall not enter.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  They went but shall not return.

• 0:32Jocko Willink?

  The plains are flat and wide.

• 0:37Jocko Willink?

  The way home is long.

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  Their swords lie beside them.

• 0:46Jocko Willink?

  Their black bows in their hand.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  Though their limbs were torn. Their hearts could not be repressed.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  They were more than brave.

• 1:05Jocko Willink?

  They were inspired with the spirit of Wu.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  Steadfast to the end, they could not be daunted.

• 1:17Jocko Willink?

  Their bodies were stricken down, but their souls have taken immortality.

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  Captains among the ghosts. Heroes among the dead."

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  And that is an excerpt from an ancient Chinese poem written by Q. Yuan. And there's not many details of his life. He was a patriotic poet that lived around 300 B.C. And the poem refers to the spirit of Wu, which I like.

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  Because Wu means martial. As in martial arts, as in things that are related to war and things that are related to fighting. Well, that's what Wu means of war. So he's talking about the spirit of war.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  And of course, China has an incredibly rich history of art and culture and thought for thousands of years.

• 2:35Jocko Willink?

  Many dynasties

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  that have carried on that rich culture.

• 2:43Jocko Willink?

  But we also, of course, know that China has a long history of war. The knowledge about war, and we've already looked at one of the fundamental books about war and strategy

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  from Sun Tzu, right, The Art of War.

• 3:00Jocko Willink?

  And today, we're going to take a look at another important document that comes from China. It's called the Thirty Six Strategisms. And this document has been around for a long time.

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  And its actual origin is debated where it came from. There's some people that say Sun Tzu wrote it, actually. There's a another military strategist named Zhu Jingyang.

• 3:29Jocko Willink?

  And some people think he wrote it, but the current prevailing view is that it's a compilation of information that was compiled by different people, different authors over the year, over the years. And the actual version that I'm using was compiled by a guy named Peter Taylor. And

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  if you remember, so Thirty Six Strategisms. That's what it's called, The Thirty Six Strategisms. And if you remember from a recent podcast that we did, stratagem doesn't mean strategy. It doesn't mean that. It's a trick. That's what it means. It's a subterfuge. It's a it's a sneaky maneuver to get what you want. That's what a stratagem is. Now, this book is divided up into six sections. The first three are for when you're winning.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  And the second three are for when you're losing. The winning stratagems are advantageous, opportunistic, and attacking. And the other, like, losing-type strategies, when you're losing, are confusion, deception, and desperation.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Some of these we've heard before. Some are a new take on an old idea, or an old take that we think is a new idea. And all of them reinforce kind of what we know. And allow us to think about these things a little bit different way, and see them from a different angle. So, here we go, the thirty-six stratagems.

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  Number one. Sneak across the ocean in broad daylight.

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  And so after they give, that's, that's the actual, that's the, that's the stratagem right there. And so you've got to give a little explanation around some of them. And Peter Taylor does it in this book, he, he lines them out. And I've actually seen, there's a, there's another copy of this same book where they all have the sort of general explanation. A lot of them have the same general explanation, almost as if it's part of the same book. But to hit that part, so it says, "Number one, sneak across the ocean in broad daylight." What does that mean? "What you often, what you see, often you do not doubt. And what is familiar becomes uninteresting and a perfect cloak for the unusual and unexpected."

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  This stratagem means that you can mask your real purpose by using the ruse or a fake target that everyone takes for granted. Tactically, this is known as the open feint. In front of everyone, you point west when your goal is actually in the east. For example, a goalkeeper, when facing a penalty shot, will often stand to one side or the other, effectively inviting the opposing player to aim towards the open space when in fact the goalkeeper reacts and moves to this exact space the moment when the shot is taken, thus saving the goal.

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  So, pretty clear.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:34Jocko Willink?

  Next one, two, besiege Wei to rescue Zhou.

• 6:40Jocko Willink?

  Besiege Wei to rescue Zhou. When the enemy is too strong to be attacked directly,

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  then attack something they hold close to them or value dearly. So this is a little bit different than just a flank, right? A flank means I'm gonna hit your weak point. This is, I'm gonna attack something that you care about.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  Take the indirect approach and find their Achilles heel. So that is the weak point. But the first, the first explanation is not just a weak point. It's, I'm gonna attack something that you are, you care about. Think about how do, how you do this in a relationship, like, well, in a business relationship or something.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Yep, and insults and...

• 7:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, there you go.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Why?

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  All kinds of things. Back to the book. The origin of this proverb is apparently from the warring states period when the state of Wei attacked Zhou and laid siege to its capital Handan. Zhou turned to Ki for help. But the Ki general Sun Bin determined it would be unwise to meet the army of Wei head on. So instead, he attacked their capital. On hearing the news, the army of Wei retreated in haste and the tired troops were then ambushed and defeated. The idea here is to avoid a head-on battle with a strong enemy and instead strike at his weakness elsewhere. So that, that part we've heard before, we know that part.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  But I like the idea of attacking something that they care about more.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:05Jocko Willink?

  I mean, that's a classic, right? That's a classic, like, classic is, oh, I can't get to you, but I'm gonna get to your kids.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, I'll, I'll kill your kids. That's always the worst, right? In all your movies that you watch?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Sure. Oh yeah. Big time.

• 8:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they always do that.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  What, so that, as far as comparing it to a flank? Like a flank is like...

• 8:27Speaker 01

  I mean comparatively speaking, what just I mean, obviously to go to the side.

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  Go to the side is.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, somewhere that's not.

• 8:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Shielded or bunk bunkered in or whatever.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Number three, kill with a borrowed knife. Attack using the strength of another in a situation where using one's own strength is not favorable. Trick an ally into attacking him or bribe an official to turn traitor in your favor, or use the enemy's own strength against him. Borrowing a knife to kill may seem rather too devious, but fundamentally it's making use of others' resources for your own gain and sometimes without your opponents knowing it.

• 9:07Jocko Willink?

  There's some underhanded stuff with this for sure. The idea here is to cause damage to your enemy by letting a third party, by getting a third party to do the deed. In fact, it can be said that your enemy's enemy is your friend, which we've heard before. Kill with a borrowed knife. That's a good one. I keep thinking about when I read these, I, I think about people interacting with other people and how someone will get someone all spun up. Like, oh, can you believe Echo did this? You shouldn't say something about that, you're right? And like, like do that way.

• 9:45Jocko Willink?

  Number four, wait at leisure while the enemy labors. It is an advantage to choose the time and place for battle. In this way, you will know when and where the battle will take place while your enemy does not. Encourage your enemy to expend his energy in futile quests while you conserve your strength. When he is exhausted and confused, you attack with energy and purpose. Check. What part of jujitsu did you not understand right there? Somebody asked me that the other day. Is it, is it a tactic to let someone get tired? A hundred percent.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like one of the foundational principles of why jujitsu is studied.

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, and if you look at the early UFC's, if you look at Hoist Gracie in the early UFC's, that, that was, I would say he used that, that tactic a majority of the time.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like what essentially jujitsu is. Like when they started it, like Helio Gracie was, you know, little guy, whatever. And that's, yeah, that's what he would say the whole time. You cook them. They call it cooking the guy. Yeah, it's part of the deal, man.

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  Cooking them. That's good. I like that. I haven't heard that one in a while. Number five, loot a burning house.

• 10:56Jocko Willink?

  When a country is beset by internal conflicts, or when disease and famine ravages the population, or when corruption and crime are rampant, then it will be unable to deal with an outside threat. This then is the best time to attack. These are devious, aren't they? When you read them, they're devious. Hey man, martial, it's the martial way. Yeah. You know what? I've seen some companies, some businesses, that do that right there. And they do it well. Yeah. When they're really, when they're really hostile, they sow the seeds of all that. All the chaos, all the ravages and all the famines and all the corruption and crime. When a company is really devious, they sow those seeds with the other company. And then, they watch them fall apart and then they go in and take them down.

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  Loot a burning house means taking personal gain from bad situations that your enemies are facing. While a house is ablaze, or during any major disturbance, there'll be enough confusion to make it easy and accessible to steal or take advantage of the situation. When your enemy is in a state of confusion and chaos, it prevents the perfect opportunity to wipe them out.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  Number six. Make a sound in the east, then strike in the west. In any battle, the element of surprise can provide an overwhelming advantage. Even when face to face with an enemy, surprise can still be employed by attacking where he least expects it. The idea here is to get the enemy to focus on his, on one location, and then attack a weakly defended spot. In boxing, feinting is a body movement or an incomplete attack used primarily to create a certain reaction from the opponent. The idea is to create an opening, or draw the opening into responding, or draw the opponent into responding, so that you may anticipate and counter with a prepared attack. In order for feints to be successful, they must make the opponent believe

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  that a punch is a real thing coming. So we've talked about that before. You can't, you can't do a weak attempt at a submission. Yep. Has it run with Andy last night? Sure.

• 13:06Jocko Willink?

  We've been having, we've been having some wars lately. And, last night, he, and it's funny. And this is, there's a whole, there's a whole thing going on. Because...

• 13:19Jocko Willink?

  Psychologically, right? If there's a timer, I'm paying attention to it.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  Right? Psychologically.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  And like, I know how much time I can survive in certain situations. So I might take a risk.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:32Jocko Willink?

  That I know, hey, if I end up in, I'll take this risk right now. There's, there's, there's a minute and 18 seconds left. I'm gonna take a risk.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:40Jocko Willink?

  The risk is gonna take me 18 seconds. If I make it, great. If, if, if the risk pays off, great. I'm gonna be in a good spot.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  If the risk doesn't pay off, well, then I've got, it's gonna take him 10 seconds to get it out. Got 50 seconds. I know how long it's gonna take to set some, the timer's gonna go. We're gonna be okay on that one.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:02Jocko Willink?

  Last night, it was close.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Close what?

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  Close. I'd played the game.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Oh, you took a risk?

• 14:07Jocko Willink?

  Took a risk.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Didn't pay off?

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  Going off. Yeah, we were going, they took the risk, didn't pay off, ended up in a bad situation.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 14:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and he was straightening out my arm.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  And, and I got out of the arm lock and he slapped a triangle on me. And I'm hard to triangle too, cause I'm just like large, right?

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  He slapped a triangle on me. If you do get the triangle on me, it's gonna be pretty deep. Now it's.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:36Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, I, it, I literally, I was thinking to myself, he's, he doesn't have time to finish this. He does not like, even like, I don't even have to defend this right now. Cause he doesn't have time to finish it. So he slapped it on there, I didn't even defend.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:48Jocko Willink?

  And then I was like, oh no. This thing is tight.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:53Jocko Willink?

  Tight. And then the bell rang.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:56Jocko Willink?

  And he laughed, cause it's not, it happens all the time.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:59Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that timer thing is like, that's a real thing. You can almost physically feel the time.

• 15:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  If it's.

• 15:04Jocko Willink?

  But here's, here's the thing is, if there's no timer, if we don't have a clock running, my game is different.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:09Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I won't take that risk. I'm super patient.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:12Jocko Willink?

  Super, just, I, I, you know, Sarge used to joke about it. Sarge would be like, oh, Jocko's gonna hang on to your arm and work that arm with not moving for like seven minutes.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:23Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna say, he's hanging out, this is all good with me. I'm over here just, I'm just, I'm just cruising. I got your arm, I'm not letting go of it. That's not happening.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna sit here.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I know that from experience.

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  You have a little bit of, you're using some strength, you're using a little bit to just maintain.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna let that happen.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:39Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna let you cook.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  You're gonna cook me a little bit.

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  But you see, you can't cook stuff in five minutes, right?

• 15:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's hard to cook something in five minutes.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. Well, yeah, that is true, generally speaking. That time, like, you know, it's a different, the difference between, you know how like some roles, you'll go against the wall or something, you know, you just, and you go against the wall. And then sometimes you're like, hey, we're by the wall, you know, all in the corner or whatever. So let's go to the middle or sometimes, you know, depending on who you roll with, what the tempo, what the mood is, you just know, wall's fair, all good, you know, wall's part of the game. So that's what the timer kinda is too, you know? Or that's what it feels like, you can almost feel it where it's like, okay, the time, when the time goes off, the time is game. This is all part of the game now, you know?

• 16:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  But if there's no time, it's kinda like it doesn't have that, so you can have a.

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  I have more fun rolling with Andy when we, when we have the timer. Because that means every three minutes, I'm taking a risk.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:33Jocko Willink?

  And I'm trying to make something happen. Or, or, or if he's in a dominant position, which he, you know, he gets in really dominant positions and he's really good at maintaining them. And he tries to get it done in that time, you know? Otherwise, he'd be cooking me for a long time, I guess.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:49Jocko Willink?

  Which would not be fun.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:50Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I could see how that could be fun.

• 16:53Jocko Willink?

  All right, next section. Strategisms for opportunistic situations. Create something from nothing. Make somebody believe there was something when there was, in fact, nothing. Or simply put, lie.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  One method of using this stratagem is to create an illusion of something's existence when in fact it does not exist. Another is to create an illusion that something does not exist when it in fact does. Pretty obvious. You know, it's a good thing to think about it, like, even if you're of the attitude that you don't wanna lie, it's good to know these stratagems that other people can use them on you.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. And the lie, I mean, that seems like a conceptual lie. Like, you know, you know, the guy who gets fired up and puts, puts on this huge display? Isn't that sort of a lie? You know?

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Like, I'm big, ferocious and crazy. And then it's kinda usually just to cover up something else.

• 17:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Or if you get like, if you're kinda injured.

• 17:51Jocko Willink?

  This moment in time.

• 17:54Jocko Willink?

  Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson just dropped in here and started having a discussion about what was a lie and what wasn't.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Well, I'm sure.

• 18:02Jocko Willink?

  That would just take this whole thing.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:04Jocko Willink?

  To another level. To a different place.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  For sure. Well, I'm sure the first thing they would do is determine what is considered a lie, like where's the.

• 18:11Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Because conceptually, it's like any, any deception, really.

• 18:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, that's true.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  So like, look, if me and you were in a, I don't know, MMA fight or something and my ankle is straight up sprained, I'm not gonna show it, you know? Like, my natural inclination is like to limp on that thing, but I'm gonna go out of my way to just show that I'm not, you know, it's no factor. Is that a lie?

• 18:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  It is, right?

• 18:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, yeah, it's deception, yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm in fact injured.

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  I bet there, I bet we're gonna get people that are like, no, a lie is technically, you know, there's probably some technical definition that puts beyond just a deception.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:49Jocko Willink?

  That's my guess.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  I think it's intentional deception.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  It's weird, because here's the deal. We know what a lie is.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:56Jocko Willink?

  We know what a lie is.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:59Jocko Willink?

  We know what it is. We know what is a lie and what isn't.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  I don't know, man, there's that gray area. I'm telling you, there's that gray area.

• 19:06Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  It's small, but yeah.

• 19:08Jocko Willink?

  All right. We will not have a discussion about that any further. Next, openly repair the gallery roads, but sneak through the passage of Chen Kang. Deceive the enemy with an obvious approach that will take a very long time while surprising him by taking a shortcut and sneaking upon him. The, you know, just classic fundamental strategy. Next, I like this one. Watch the fires burning across the river.

• 19:40Jocko Willink?

  Delay, delay entering the field of battle until all the players have become exhausted fighting amongst themselves. At that point, go in at full strength and pick up the pieces.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  When this, this is exactly, remember the, the person that just asked on the last podcast about how to stop getting interrupted? This is what we're talking about. Do that right there. Let other people like to have their conversation and fire their ammunition. And then, when they're done fighting amongst themselves and they're exhausted, go in at full strength and pick up the pieces. When a serious conflict breaks out within the enemy alliance, all you have to do is be patient and wait quietly for the chaos to build up because once this internal conflict intensifies, then self destruction will be the outcome. Besides the patient, besides being patient, make preparations for any advantage that might come out of the chaos. So, sometimes you just gotta sit across the river and watch the fires burn for a little while.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  That's interesting because that's exactly what that is.

• 20:38Jocko Willink?

  That's exactly what it is.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and because you're compelled to interrupt back, you know, and all this stuff. But, yeah, man, it's good.

• 20:46Jocko Willink?

  Just sit back and listen. Let the fires burn. Let the fires burn. Number 10. Hide a knife behind a smile. Charm and ingratiate yourself with your enemy and then, when you have gained his trust, move against him in secret. Sun Tzu's most often quoted advice was to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But here, the stratagem is far more duplicitous. In that it advises that the sole purpose of keeping your enemy close is not just to understand them and be prepared for any aggression from them, but is to deceive them with a

• 21:31Jocko Willink?

  treasonable act that would see their downfall. Hide behind a knife with a smile. So, I was having a conversation with a guy the other day. And, the question is, if you've run something up the chain of command to the absolute top, you can't bring it up anymore. And actually, this was a person in the fire services. If you've brought something, so, fire departments, if you've brought something up the chain of command to the absolute top, and you still haven't gotten what you wanted, what would you do then? They were asking me. And I was like, well, there's a lot of things you could do then, in that situation. You know, you've got, like, because the, the, the topic was basically if training should be harder, right?

• 22:15Jocko Willink?

  If people aren't training harder, and I'm bringing up the chain of command, and people say, no, it's fine, no, it's fine, no, it's fine. And you believe that this is wrong, and people should be training hard so we're more prepared to do our job, what would you do then? Jocko? And I was like, well, you know, you, well, you could, you know what you could do? You could say, okay, you know what? You don't want to listen to me? Fine, I'm going public. I'm gonna write an article in the newspaper about how our department is not prepared to handle emergencies. That's what I'm gonna do.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:45Jocko Willink?

  And then they're gonna listen.

• 22:48Jocko Willink?

  Now, let's think about that. Let's think about that outcome, right? The outcome is, there's a decent chance you get fired. You definitely aren't getting promoted. You, and, and so whether you get fired or you don't get promoted, you get stuck in this position where you have no influence. And by the way, did you get any training change? No. Now, could there, is there a possibility that the public takes note and goes, oh wow, this is wrong. And we're gonna, we're gonna have another election and we're gonna replace this fire chief or whatever. Is there a chance that could happen? There's a chance. How'd that fire chief end up in that position? He's a political guy. He knows how to make things happen. He knows how to take care of himself. And if you think he's gonna let some little article out in the newspaper get him deposed from his position, you're wrong.

• 23:33Jocko Willink?

  You're underestimating your, your enemy at this point. So, don't do that. So, I said, what if instead of doing that,

• 23:42Jocko Willink?

  you wrote, let's say, same idea, you wrote a positive article about the fire department and it made everyone look good. And the chief looked at you like you were spreading the good word. And he says, oh, you know what? I appreciate you putting out that article. That was really good. It made us look good. He might not say that part, but he's like, I liked your article. Well, you know, chief, I just wanna let people know what we're doing over here. And now you're building trust. Now you're building trust with him. And now he says, oh, you know what? Yeah, you, you know what? You should run this thing over here. Why don't you run that little thing? And you take that thing and you run it. You keep it in the box that you know he would like it in. And then he goes, hey, you know, you did a good job with that. I'm gonna get you up a little bit higher. And eventually you get to a position of influence where you actually can make the change that you wanna make.

• 24:23Jocko Willink?

  Now, again, the thing is, when I say things like this, people are always, they don't wanna hear it. Like when, when, when someone, they, they think they know me and they're like, oh, you know what? And I was saying this the other day at a different company. That everybody wants me to say, you know what you gotta do in a situation like that? You come in with a battle axe and you start swinging and you take out everyone that's in your way. That's how you win.

• 24:48Jocko Willink?

  And I wish that that was true, but it's actually not true. It's not true. You don't win. You don't win when you do that.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:55Jocko Willink?

  You have to think. You have to play the game. What you have to do is hide a knife behind a smile. Now, that's, that's very treasonous, he calls it. But if your goal, if your goal, let's take the fire department, if your goal is to actually do a better job and, and save more people's lives because you've trained more, and that's the knife that you're trying to get out in the end, is that a bad thing? No, it's actually a good thing. You're not hiding a knife behind a smile. You're hiding save lives behind a smile. That's what you're doing. This takes tactical patience.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:28Jocko Willink?

  Tactical patience. That's a word people used to throw around because they thought it sounded cool.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  It does.

• 25:34Jocko Willink?

  It does sound cool, right? It's a real thing, though. And if you don't have tactical patience to play the, to win the long war, it's a long war. Years. It can take years. This situation that, talking to this fire guy the other day, that situation could take years to, to unfold. Years. But

• 25:55Jocko Willink?

  and, and we've talked about, if you just make a stink and cause problems and run up the, run your mouth and cause all this, all this focus and bring the spotlight to the bad areas, guess what? You're not even gonna get, you're not gonna get moved up and put in a better position.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  So don't do that.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so crazy. That's like, a lot of times the advice you give is literally the exact opposite of what it feels like we should do. It's like you, you feel like, hey, I need to do this. I just need to know how. Can you tell me how? And you don't tell how. You say, hey, wait, you need to do this. No, you don't need to do that. You need to do the exact opposite of that. You're like, oh, man.

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  It's not what you think you're supposed to do.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  You jam me up, but, um, I will say through experience that your answers tend to be right 100% of the time.

• 26:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, people, a lot of times you don't want to hear, and when I was younger, I didn't want to hear me either.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yes, that part is true. For sure.

• 26:49Jocko Willink?

  When, when I was younger, it's like, oh, you know, screw that guy.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, what am I gonna do? Cultivate a relationship with this, this guy?

• 26:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's weak.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 26:58Jocko Willink?

  He's unsat. You know, there's a, there's a military term, unsat. And I used, that used to be my, that used to be, that used to be as bad as, that was the worst adjective I could use.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:08Jocko Willink?

  I'd be like, that guy's unsat.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  Or you know, whatever, a piece of gear. People are like, oh, how's that gear? Unsat.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:16Jocko Willink?

  Cause you'd get marked like on an inspection, unsat, which meant unsatisfactory.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 27:21Jocko Willink?

  I need to bring that back.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, man, it's been a while. But yeah, German cake nuts used to always say that.

• 27:26Jocko Willink?

  Sat or unsat, cause you could have sat too. You'd be like, that was, if you were to say to me like, oh, how was that dinner last night? Sat. Meaning, it was, it was, you know.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  It was good. It was fine.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  They never said that. They never said sat. They always said unsat.

• 27:39Jocko Willink?

  You, you have to put sat and unsat cut it together for sat to make any sense whatsoever.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Naturally.

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  Check. Alright, number 11. Preserve the plum tree. Or sorry, sacrifice the plum tree to preserve the peach tree. There are circumstances in which you must sacrifice short, short-term objectives in order to gain the desired long-term goal. This is the scapegoat stratagem whereby someone else suffers the consequences and so the rest do not. Pretty, pretty straightforward, that one. I think some of these stratagems that are straightforward, what's good about hearing them is that you recognize them.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:22Jocko Willink?

  Cause it might seem obvious, but then you, when you're doing it, you do, you're like, well, I don't know, we could, and you say, oh wait, you know what we're actually doing? We're, we're sacrificing the plum tree to spare the peach tree. That's what we're gonna do right now. Once you commit to that, or you understand it fully, then you can execute it with more authority.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially in the, in the wild too, cause like if you have that, that framework to stick to, you know, like, oh, this is what we're gonna do kinda thing. And all these other variables happen, on actually, you know, unplanned stuff, but you're, you have that to stick to. It makes it way more clear.

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  That's the commander's intent. The commander's intent is very clear, and so we know what we're gonna do. That's what's gonna happen. Number 12. Take the opportunity to pilfer a goat.

• 29:02Jocko Willink?

  Uh, while carrying out your plans, you need to be flexible enough to take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself, however small, and avail yourself of any profit, however slight. That's a good one. I think it's, I think it's important to keep in mind though, that you don't wanna get pulled off track, right? You wanna keep focused on your mission, and all of a sudden you can be running around gathering up goats while your real target escapes.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:27Jocko Willink?

  So, let's not get too crazy with that one. But again, let's keep it in mind.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:33Jocko Willink?

  Next section, stratagems for attacking situations.

• 29:41Jocko Willink?

  Number thirteen, stomp the grass to scare the snake. Do something unaimed but spectacular to provoke a response of the enemy thereby giving away his plans or position, or just taunt him. Do something unusual, strange, and unexpected as this will arouse the enemy's suspicion and disrupt his thinking. This is recon by fire. Just fire some rounds and maybe the enemy shoots back at you, now you know where they are. Next, borrow a corpse to resurrect the soul.

• 30:17Jocko Willink?

  Take an institution, a method, or even an ideology that has been forgotten or discarded, and appropriate it for your own purpose. Revive something from the past by giving it a new purpose, or bring to life old ideas, customs, or traditions, and reinterpret them for your, to fit your purposes. Here's, here's an example, is like Hitler. He brought back, he would bring back like old Viking symbols. And root that, root the Viking tradition, like, hey, you're a Viking, we're Vikings.

• 31:01Jocko Willink?

  And they have like little symbols, that's, that's exactly what it is. And use that, so then people have a deeper connection.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:09Jocko Willink?

  With, with this thing.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Makes sense.

• 31:14Jocko Willink?

  Next, fifteen, entice the tiger to leave its mountain lair.

• 31:21Jocko Willink?

  Never directly attack an opponent whose advantage is derived from its position. Instead, lure him away from his position, thus separating him from his source of strength. The stratagem is based on the idea that the tiger is powerful only when it's in its natural environment, but if removed from that environment, it becomes weaker and more vulnerable. I don't know if a tiger's weak in a not a good environment, I think a tiger could still kill me pretty quickly even in a city street.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Maybe in the water, he couldn't.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  No, that's not true.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, compared to a person.

• 31:53Jocko Willink?

  No, in Sri Lanka, the tigers would swim, like, they would swim and pull fish, get, get in the boats and pull fishermen to their death. Yeah, how's that for a nightmare?

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Dang, that's rough.

• 32:07Jocko Willink?

  That's again, pretty clear. You know what this isn't jujitsu? You get someone to play that not their game.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you got a good guard call on the pole garden view.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Or really, why jujitsu is founded yet again? It's you take a guy who's, you know, what's the traditional method of fighting? I'm gonna stand up and throw punches and kicks at him.

• 32:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  So jujitsu is like, oh, you take him out of the punching and kicking situation.

• 32:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  To the ground, no punches, no kicks, ineffective. Boom, that's the jujitsu.

• 32:34Jocko Willink?

  Yep. You're not in your special place anymore.

• 32:38Jocko Willink?

  This is, this is an interesting one, number 16. In order to capture, one must let, one must let loose. Cornered prey will often mount a final desperate attack. To prevent this, you let the enemy believe he still has a chance for freedom. His will to fight thus dampened by his desire to escape. When in the end, the freedom is proven a falsehood and the enemy's morale will be defeated and he will surrender without a fight. So we've, we've heard that one. That's the golden bridge. We just heard it from Frederick the Great. I think we also heard it from Vigetius. They're saying, give the people a little out. They see that, they see that chance to escape. They, I remember, I think it was Vigetius was saying that they would just leave their weapons because they want to get away so bad.

• 33:22Jocko Willink?

  They just leave their weapons and then you're just waiting for them. Slaughter. If an enemy has no way to retreat, then desperation will increase their bravery and ferocity of their fight. So you always offer them room for retreat and in such a retreat, their, their morale will be low.

• 33:41Jocko Willink?

  Next, tossing out a brick to get a jade gem. Bait someone by making him believe he gained something or just make him react to it and obtain something valuable from him in return.

• 33:57Jocko Willink?

  Pretty straightforward. The real meaning is to attempt, is to tempt through the offering of something useless in order to gain something valuable. It is a tactic that utilizes baiting the enemy. The point of this tactic is to throw out bait that does not seem like bait. On the other hand, it's important to have a keen sense of judgment to ensure you do not take the enemy's bait in return. The ability to look past the immediate gain and see the long-term cost is a valuable skill. So i- if you're in a leadership situation,

• 34:29Jocko Willink?

  sometimes you hold the line, you appear to hold the line on something. And then you then you let you let it go.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  You're like, like you you wanna do something a certain way and I'm like, well, Echo, I don't it's something I don't care about. But I hold the line, I'm just gonna give you a nice victory at the end of it. I already know that, but.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yes, I feel like.

• 34:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, you feel like, oh, yeah, see, I was right.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:51Jocko Willink?

  You're happy.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  I made it happen.

• 34:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I made it happen. I was able to convince Jocko that this was the right thing to do. I didn't care. I'm not gonna tell you that. I was like, no, you know what? Yeah, so it seems like a good design for that T-shirt.

• 35:04Jocko Willink?

  Let's go with it.

• 35:07Jocko Willink?

  Next, defeat the enemy by capturing their chief. If the enemy's army is strong, but it's but is allied to the commander only by money, superstition, or threats, then take aim at the leader. If the commander falls, the rest of the army will disperse or come over to your side. If, however, they are allied to the leader through loyalty, then beware, the army can continue to fight on after his death out of vengeance.

• 35:37Jocko Willink?

  That one's straightforward, but that is something that's very important to recognize is is what kind of loyalty? The people that you're going against, what kind of loyalty do they have? I work with businesses all the time. There's businesses that establish a massively loyal employee base. And the people are there way, they are loyal. They're not there for the money. The money is like part of it, but they're there because they wanna be there. Those companies and somebody somebody comes in and starts trying to mess with those companies, it's a bloodbath.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  It is a bloodbath.

• 36:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay, now that's the now we're getting into stratagems when you are losing. So, things change a little bit. Now we're on the losing side. Number one is stratagem. Strategems for confused situations. This is a good one. Remove the firewood from under the pot. If something must be destroyed, destroy the source. The strength of the fire determines whether the water will boil, and the strength of the fire comes from the burning wood. It may not be wise to confront the boiling water directly, but by taking the wood from under the cooking pot, the boiling water will soon be cool. In other words, do not confront your opponent's strong points, but instead remove the source of his strength. Yeah, that's, I, I, I don't know that I necessarily agree with the last part there.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  That not attacking the strong points. I think it's, you, I would say, watch out for the volatile points. And you, you don't attack the things that can do you damage, like boiling water. You attack something that's a little bit detached, and you go after the source.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  What he's talking about is like, um, what do they call it? It's, it's a problem-solving method, if I'm not mistaken. It's two, there's direct and there's systemic.

• 37:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, for sure. Yes, you are correct.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like you, yeah, attack the, the source, you know, of these problems. It's like, you know, the, like your, your plant at home, right? You got a tree growing in the yard. The leaves are, they're turning brown. You know, it's not even fall, the leaves turning brown.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  You know what? Paint those leaves green.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  That's the worst, yeah, exactly.

• 37:41Jocko Willink?

  That's attacking the boiling water.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  That's a direct, yeah, that's a direct problem-solving approach. Or, or I always say water the leaves. Don't water the leaves. You don't water the leaves. You water the roots. And then, over time, that's a systemic approach. That's the one.

• 37:56Jocko Willink?

  Like how you roll. Deep.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 37:59Jocko Willink?

  Next. This, number 20. Disturb the water and catch a fish. Create confusion and use this confusion to further your own goals. Originally, it means to stir the water, the sentiments, in order to cloud the ver, the vision of the fish and therefore catch the fish. Here it means to create confusion so that the enemy does not know what is real and what is not. A confused enemy is more vulnerable to any attack. I was, I was rolling with Taylor the other day.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 38:29Jocko Willink?

  And we were doing, we were standing up, you know, we were getting after it. And Taylor's, for those of you that don't know, Taylor's a beast. He's, he's like barely human. He's a beast. And he wrestled and he does jiu-jitsu and he's just a sick grappler and fighter. By the way, no one will fight him, which, which really makes me mad. He's like, he will fight anyone and no one will fight him. He just keeps destroying people. No one wants to fight him. Cause you get nothing out of it. Cause he's not, he isn't, his record is, I think he's three and O right now. So you, if you beat a three and O fighter, that means nothing. If you lose to a three and O fighter, that's not good for you. So no one smart is gonna take a fight with him. I'm probably not helping by saying this right now. Anybody that's hearing this is like, okay, well, that's one person I'm not gonna fight.

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  Uh, my point in this was we were, we were doing takedowns or we had gotten to a point where we were doing takedowns. And he must've thrown eighty-seven fakes at me in like three seconds. Where I was, I had no idea what was happening.

• 39:34Jocko Willink?

  So he definitely disturbed the water and caught the fish.

• 39:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that used to happen with Sarge too. Sarge, who's an awesome wrestler and, and jiu-jitsu. And if, if he hadn't been doing much wrestling, he would, he would, I could read that he's gonna come. Cause he's just got a sick blast double, like Sarge's blast double is just sick. And, and he just comes in full power and it's just hard to stop. But if he hasn't been wrestling, he real, he knows he can just, he just goes into like, okay, I'm gonna hit a blast double. Like I'm tired of playing around and so he gets that look on his face and I could read it cause I know him for twenty-five years. And he get the blast double look on his face. And I remember one time, you know, I, I must've sprawled on him like two or three times in, in a day and.

• 40:25Jocko Willink?

  And it was it was kind of, I could see he was a little bit surprised that he wasn't, that he didn't take me down. And I was like, so I told him, I said, hey, you know, when you haven't wrestled for a while, you don't set it up, you just do it. And then we wrestled again, and he set up again. Just forty seven little touches in my face, come pull my arm, this here, push me there, drag this, slap here, boom, and all of a sudden. Here comes the blast double, which I didn't know was coming. So that makes a big difference.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:55Jocko Willink?

  Get them waters blurred up.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 41:03Jocko Willink?

  Slough off the cicada's golden shell.

• 41:10Jocko Willink?

  Cicada is like a cricket, like a grasshopper.

• 41:15Jocko Willink?

  This stratagem is mainly used to escape from an enemy of superior force. Mask yourself by either leaving your flamboyant traits behind, thus going incognito, or just masquerade yourself and create an illusion to fit your goals and distract others. So, the grasshoppers and crickets at some point in their, what's it called, a life cycle?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Lifespan, life cycle, sure.

• 41:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they they, basically their skin, whatever it is, their shell.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:42Jocko Willink?

  They have to, they get rid of it, they molt.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of bugs.

• 41:47Jocko Willink?

  They get rid of it, yeah. Well, you can do that too.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:51Jocko Willink?

  You can leave some stuff behind and make people think that's still going on, but really you're escaping.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Jocko Willink?

  When a cricket has grown to a certain stage, it sheds its outer shell and leaves the empty shell behind. This empty shell is often mistaken for a real cricket.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of like on Total Recall, remember Total Recall, the movie Arnold Schwarzenegger?

• 42:09Jocko Willink?

  I do remember that, but I don't fully remember it.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he comes in as that woman.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yes, okay, oh dang, yeah, there's that part too, yeah, the lady, yeah, two weeks, right? Then it malfunctions, and then he throws the head and it's an explosion. I was thinking more like the hologram, they always, they had this hologram thing. Where it's like, oh, you know, it's him, but it's just the hologram, meanwhile, he's, I think, escaping or something like this.

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  I went and saw, when I was in college, I had to go see a Shakespeare play, which was cool, I'm down with that. I would bring my Shakespeare book to the play, so I had my notes when I was there. And it was funny because after the play was over.

• 42:52Jocko Willink?

  They went, they like brought out the cast and was, you know, kind of introducing them with some details about their career. And the woman that played that woman, that head came apart and Arnold Schwarzenegger was inside her.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:07Jocko Willink?

  She was in the Shakespeare play. And here she was just getting offstage from crushing some Shakespeare. And I think it was Richard the third. And the highlight that they pointed out of her whole career was that she was like the woman in the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie whose head came apart in Total Recall. That was actually, and then, then it was in, in the pamphlet that they give you when you go to the play.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:38Jocko Willink?

  It was telling this guy did this and this guy was, has been in this, this guy was in the royal this and, you know, and then it's got her. And it says, she played the woman in Total Recall.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, but here's the thing about that, like on paper, literally on paper, that doesn't, that sounds like all this little thing. But bro, that was a huge part of the movie. Let's face it. Two weeks. How long are you gonna be on Mars? Two weeks. And it's like, whatever. Do you have any vegetables or something like that? And she goes, two weeks.

• 44:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Oh dang, the thing starts malfunctioning, boom, boom, they identify him. Yeah, man, it's a big part of the movie.

• 44:10Jocko Willink?

  Bigger than Shakespeare.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Arguably, yeah.

• 44:13Jocko Willink?

  No, not arguably. All right. This is, one is a little bit of a contradiction. Listen to this one. Number 22. Shut the door to catch the thief. To capture the enemy, you must plan prudently if you want to succeed. Do not rush into action before you move in for the kill. First, cut off your enemy's escape routes and cut off any routes through which outside help can reach them. So that is the opposite of having a golden bridge, having an escape route that your people can get out of. So you gotta, if you gotta, no. Does that mean that they're both invalid? No, actually, to me, it means they're both valid.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  But you need to recognize because, for instance, let's say you're in a situation where you surround the enemy, and all of a sudden, they start fighting really hard. Cause you're like, yeah, I'm gonna follow 22. I'm gonna, I'm gonna surround everyone, I'm gonna keep them locked in there. You do that, and they start fighting really hard, and you're losing a lot of guys. Then you know, hey, open up a little spot for them to escape.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:08Jocko Willink?

  And let them run away, and we'll be waiting for them over here.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:11Jocko Willink?

  So, just because things are opposites do not, does not mean they negate each other.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's one of those deals where, you know, it's circumstantial, right? Like in jujitsu, it's like, oh yeah, does this scenario, you know, going against this guy, does this, um, should I use strength and power, and should I hustle a lot? Will that strategy work with this guy? Or is it like, okay, I should play more passive or something like that?

• 45:38Jocko Willink?

  No, no, that's true, and actually, to get even more tactical in jujitsu, you could, you could, let's say you mount someone, and they start just getting crazy, cause they don't want to, they're getting completely nuts, and you're trying to choke them, trying to choke them, cause you've got everything, and they're getting nuts, and you can't do it. If you open a little spot for them where they think they can sneak out, but you're waiting for them there with the arm lock.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:01Jocko Willink?

  Get the W.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, yeah, that is really how it kinda works, where, yeah, when you get mount, you wanna hold position, I mean, as far as traditional jujitsu, for lack of a better term, you get mount, you wanna hold the position, right? You don't wanna lose position, you can get flipped over. But if you can hold them out, good, but if he's big, strong, he starts, you know, that last desperation attempt, boom, you gotta kinda let him, hopefully, he turns over. Really, that's usually what they do if they don't have experience. And then, boom, you, so you essentially give up the mount, but...

• 46:33Jocko Willink?

  But you can even, like, if you talk about a big, strong guy, that's, you're more experienced. Even just... You could prevent them from pushing you up and away, right? You could lock that door down where there's no escape. Or you could let them do it a little bit. You give them that little thing and then boom. Yeah. Arm lock. Just whatever's better for the that situation. Sure. Next. Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor. It is known that nations that border each other become enemies while nations separated by distance. Next, number 23. Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor. It is known that nations that border each other become enemies while nations separated by distance and obstacles make better allies.

• 47:19Jocko Willink?

  When you are the strongest in one field, your greatest threat is from the second strongest in your field, not the strongest from another field.

• 47:31Jocko Willink?

  That's a, that's a good thing to think about. That's a good thing to think about.

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  When you're the strongest in one field, your greatest threat is from the second strongest in your field. That makes sense. See that in business all the time, right? The, the, the, the, the company that makes pizzas isn't worried about the company that makes cars. Yeah, that's true. Right? They're worried about the other companies that make pizzas. Yep. Next, 24.

• 48:04Jocko Willink?

  Obtain safe passage to conquer the state of Gyo.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  Gyo is a state.

• 48:14Jocko Willink?

  Borrow the resources of an ally to attack a common enemy. Once the enemy is defeated, use those resources to turn on the ally that lent you them in the first place. That's underhanded situation right there. It's underhanded situation right there. Isn't it? Yeah, it's bad. Yeah. Be careful with that one. Seems like. But you can see, now it's something you gotta watch out for. Well, if that's your enemy to begin with, I'm assuming. Yeah, if it's your enemy to begin with, but if, how much of your enemy is gonna help you? And now they help you and then you just turn and stab them in the back. Be careful with that one. I think that's the definition of backstabbing. Yeah.

• 48:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that might be the, that is the actual definition. All right, next one. Strategisms for deception situations.

• 49:09Jocko Willink?

  Number 25. Replace the beams with rotten timbers. Disrupt the enemy's formations, interfere with their methods of operations, change the rules which they are used to following and go contrary to their standard training. That's all really good stuff. In this way, you remove the supporting pillar, the common link that makes a group of men an effective fighting force. This goes back to what you just said. I mean, it's clearly go away from what they're used to, right? That's what we do. That's what jujitsu is supposed to be. Everyone's gonna, like you said, they're gonna stand and try and punch you. We're not gonna do that. We're gonna take them down to the ground. Next. 26. Point at the mulberry tree

• 49:53Jocko Willink?

  while cursing the locust tree. To discipline, control, or warn others whose status, position, or status or position excludes them from direct conversation or confrontation, use analogy and innuendo.

• 50:11Jocko Willink?

  When names are not used directly, those accused cannot retaliate without revealing their complicity. All that's sneaky. You know, that's like when you're in the meeting. And there's the person up the chain of command, they haven't been showing up on time and you start saying, you know, we got people, you know, Bill hasn't been on time and you're really talking about them. I have to use this sometimes.

• 50:36Jocko Willink?

  Have to use this sometimes because we go work with companies. And the company, let's say, let's say the CEO brings us into the company. Sometimes we figure out that the CEO is the one that's the root of the problem.

• 50:49Jocko Willink?

  And one of the reasons that they're the root of the problem is because they don't think they need to change anything. And so they bring us in to change everyone else.

• 50:59Jocko Willink?

  Guess who needs change? The big man. The big man, the reason that they don't want to change is because they got the ego that prevents them from listening. So to go in and directly confront them on what they need to change is not going to be effective. So to go in and give, I've given, I've given a whole presentation. I did this one time where I gave a whole presentation. Maybe I've done it more times, but there's one time that I specifically remember. I gave a whole presentation.

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  To, you know, the fifteen people, the senior executive leadership of a company. The entire presentation was directed at one person, the CEO. And I was going, it was about ego, it was about, you know, keeping that in check and how you don't know everything and how you gotta let your, listen to your subordinates and all those things, he wasn't doing any of those things.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:48Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Isn't there like a basic tactic that I think people do all the time instead of, you know, like I'm the boss and I'm holding a company meeting or whatever? And, and you know, let's say there's one guy who always shows up late to work, I don't know. And in the meeting he'll be like, hey guys, we, we gotta show up on time, it's very important, but just the very, the use of the word we, rather than pointing at one guy, you know? We gotta show up on time, we gotta do this, it's kinda like, the person who it, who he's talking about kinda like, he feels.

• 52:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a good way to start. There's some people that even, they're not part of that we. And so sometimes you have to escalate that into you.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that defeats the purpose of that.

• 52:30Jocko Willink?

  It does defeat the purpose of that, yeah. You can, if you, if this strategy doesn't work, you might have to escalate into something a little bit more direct.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  You know, break out the battle axe.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:39Jocko Willink?

  That's always the last option, just to make sure, everyone wants to break out the battle axe, that's what everybody wants to do.

• 52:45Jocko Willink?

  Next, twenty-seven. Fain madness, but keep your balance. Hide behind the mask of a fool, a drunk, or a madman, to create confusion about your intentions and motivations. Lure your opponent into underestimating your ability, until overconfident, he drops his guard. Then you may attack.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Is that like the movie White Men Can't Jump, you ever see that? So he did it, Woody.

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, he made it like he couldn't play ball?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, like he was just this dork, what do you call it, chump, whatever, that's what they'd call him. Chump, like he's super dorky, he goes and everyone else is just so cool and boom, flashy and all the stuff, he comes in, he's a, he's super nerdy. And, you know, boom, of course they pick him, you know, kinda thing, and then.

• 53:35Jocko Willink?

  Would he beat them with flashiness or would he beat them with with traditional? Let's call it just who's your style hard work and?

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, no, he had legitimate skill. He was like this. So yeah, he'd come in, he'd be super dorky and then um. At first he tricked them. So he came in the introduction to him. He was like acting all dorky. And then the guys Wesley Snipes and them, they're all playing basketball and they're, you know, getting into little arguments, whatever. One guy gets hurt or his bunion, I don't know, something. And they're like, hey, we need another guy. And then the guy's like, you know, let's, you know, get him or whatever. So they're like, ha, ha, ha, you know, yeah, you got him, whatever. They play. He ends up to be pretty good. Doesn't show a lot, but he's like pretty solid. And then they're like, hey, you guys lucked out. You had this, you know, dorky guy. You guys kind of lucked out. And he's like, oh, yeah, you know, maybe you did luck out.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Or maybe I'm just better than you. But they're already convinced he's this dorky guy and they're like, I'm better than you. He's like, all right, well, it's bad kind of thing. They're already convinced.

• 54:36Jocko Willink?

  Pool shark is this scenario?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Same exact thing.

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty obvious one. And I think I think. One thing that again to take away from this is if you know these things. You're less likely to be. Suckered in by them.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:55Jocko Willink?

  That's that's the most important thing.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, you say the pool shark thing. I saw a guy who really clumsily tried to do that. He'd come, I worked in a nightclub, we had a pool table in there and. This guy came in and he like acts like he's like, he comes in just a normal guy. He comes in with his own cue, by the way. His own pool stick.

• 55:16Jocko Willink?

  Which is an indicator.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, like total giveaway and.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  And he comes in and then immediately when like he kind of enters the little scene, you know, the little area where the pool. He acts like he's just kind of drunk and just real oblivious, you know, he just total just switches to a different guy. And here's the thing, we, you can't let drunk people walk around in the bar. So you know, when waitresses or other or the manager would come by, they'd be like, hey, is that that guy's too drunk? Like, why are you kind of like, keep an eye on him? And I'm like, but he's not drunk. He's like acting drunk. So I go talk to him just to sort of make sure and he's just like all normal talking to me. But yeah, he tried. No one, I mean, it wasn't like-

• 55:57Jocko Willink?

  No one would get money from, he, he wouldn't get money from anyone?

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing. No, because it was like a nightclub. It wasn't a competitive pool hall. No one cared. No one's gonna take his, no one's even gonna bet. They're like, bro, we're just cruising. Like, why are you, you know, wanting to bet? Kind of thing. I'm not saying that happened, but I'm saying that's the attitude.

• 56:14Jocko Willink?

  In this day and age, you'd have to be pretty dumb to fall for this in a pool hall scenario. I'll beat this guy. You gotta really think you can beat him, right? Otherwise, you'd just be dumb.

• 56:26Jocko Willink?

  Alright, next. Remove the ladder when the enemy has ascended to the roof. This is another one that kind of is a little bit contradictory. With baits and deceptions, lure your enemy into treacherous, treacherous terrain. Then cut off his lines of communication and avenue of escape. To save himself, he must fight both your own forces and the elements of nature. Okay, I see what makes it a little bit different. It's the elements of nature part. Cause otherwise, we're just doing something that we talked about wasn't good, which is, don't give him any escape. Then they're gonna fight really hard. But if you put him in a situation where they gotta fight both the elements of nature and you, that makes sense.

• 57:04Jocko Willink?

  Twenty-nine. Deck the tree with false blossoms. Tying silk blossoms on a dead tree gives the illusion that the tree is healthy. Through the use of artifice and disguise, make something of no value appear valuable, of no threat appear dangerous, of no use appear useful. Pretty straightforward.

• 57:29Jocko Willink?

  You know who does a lot of that? Stilts. When you roll with stilts? He like baits. He, he puts his arms, he's super flexible.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:39Jocko Willink?

  And he'll put his arm way over there and it'll be all obvious. I've, I've tried to tell him, stilts, when you hear this, if you backed off your-

• 57:49Jocko Willink?

  Your exposure a little bit, it'd be more believable.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:53Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Doesn't smell real.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't smell real. He's like, he like taps the ground with his arm when he sticks it all out there like, and he bends it enough, so it's almost in a perfect chimera. Like, all he gotta do is go for this, but he's so flexible. If you go for it, he's gonna off bounce, he's gonna put his hooks in.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  Cause he's six foot something, like six foot six.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  You ever think-

• 58:11Jocko Willink?

  And super flexible.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  You ever think with him, I don't know if this is the case or not, but you ever think, cause I think this every once in a while, where he's overdoing it because he's trying, you know, it's like a, like a charade.

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  You're right. He, that might be part of it.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know?

• 58:26Jocko Willink?

  He's overdoing that so much that you don't do it, cause, and actually, actually, you're right. We've had that conversation. He's told me before that sometimes he would stick something out, cause he knew I had it so good, that if you just try to make it look so obvious, I wouldn't go for it.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yes, he was right.

• 58:40Jocko Willink?

  He was actually correct. There's a lot of times when I see him do something, I'm suspect with everything he does.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:45Jocko Willink?

  Everything he does, I'm suspect.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:47Jocko Willink?

  Any-

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Me too, hundred percent.

• 58:48Jocko Willink?

  Like, you think you're gonna pass guard, he's gonna, he's got some little scam going.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:51Jocko Willink?

  He's trying to trick you.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:52Jocko Willink?

  So, be careful.

• 58:56Jocko Willink?

  Number thirty.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Some scam.

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  Scam.

• 59:01Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna stab you in the back. Make the host and the guest exchange roles. Usurp leadership in a situation where you are normally subordinate. Infiltrate your target. Initially, pretend to be a guest to be accepted, but develop from inside and become the owner later. I like that. Well, that's the same thing, same I already talked about with the fire department scenario.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  Cause that method is a lot better than the method of battle axe, cause you won't even make it through the front door if you're holding an axe, right? They're not gonna let you in there.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, the more I kinda listen to you, kind of, is the more, the, the battle axe approach, really, most of the time, all that does is like, create another war.

• 59:47Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Like, you just basically took one war and made another war in there. Now you got two major wars, by the way.

• 59:53Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  That seems to be the result.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  You know, just to give everyone a little bit of relief.

• 1:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Where the battle axe is appropriate, a hundred percent appropriate, is with yourself in your own life. You know what I mean? That's the difference.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  That doesn't give anybody relief.

• 1:00:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it does, because you can use that. You want to use it.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Not on yourself.

• 1:00:13Jocko Willink?

  You want to use it, but you gotta use it on yourself.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Not on yourself.

• 1:00:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're saying people don't want to use it on yourself?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  People want to use it on others.

• 1:00:18Jocko Willink?

  You should want to use it on yourself. How are you gonna fix yourself? You fix it.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Alright, well, listen, I mean, well.

• 1:00:23Jocko Willink?

  You got that weakness.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  I know, bro, but see, that's the exact thing I'm talking about with you, so.

• 1:00:29Jocko Willink?

  Because the strange thing is that the other methodology doesn't work with yourself. If you're like negotiating with yourself, like, you know what? I'm not really that weak.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  I'm gonna play the long game with myself.

• 1:00:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know what? I think just one donut, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, really, it's just one donut. Don't do that. Battle axe.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, so that yet again goes along with your whole thing where, bruh, I don't want to hear that. When I say I want to bring out the battle axe, right, Jaco? Right?

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  You want it to be for everyone else, not for you.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  The guy that got causing the problems for me.

• 1:01:01Jocko Willink?

  But that's not the way it works. You only can use the battle axe on yourself.

• 1:01:06Jocko Willink?

  That's where you use it. And when you do that, what you do is you do solve the problem. It's the actual, so it's interesting. There's a dichotomy here. I tell people with, with everyone else, don't use the battle axe. That's where they want to use the battle axe. They don't want to use the battle axe on themselves. That's where I tell them to use the battle axe.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Jocko Willink?

  It's a strange world.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  So unfair.

• 1:01:28Jocko Willink?

  If you can figure that right there out, life gets a lot easier.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, it gets harder at first, but it ends up easier.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's so one thousand million percent, can something be a thousand million percent true?

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  Not really, actually.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  But if it could, this would be one of those things. Right, because and it's yet again, one of your things where it's like, hey, Jaco, I'm, I'm trying to do this. I need to do this. Tell me the best way to do it. And your, and your answer isn't, okay, this is how you do this better. It's, hey, you don't want to do that. You want to do this. Oh. By the way, that's the exact opposite of what you think you need to do. That's your whole thing. Same exact thing with your battle axe analogy. You're like, I'm like, hey, I need to take a battle axe to my boss, man. He just doesn't get it. All this stuff. And you're like, oh, yeah. Oh, no, you don't. You actually have to take the battle axe to yourself. That's your whole thing.

• 1:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it is.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  Because, because if you take the battle axe to your boss, you're gonna get.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, create another war.

• 1:02:18Jocko Willink?

  If you take it to yourself and you cut off the, the hostility, you, you smash.

• 1:02:25Jocko Willink?

  The hostility that you have towards your boss, if you use the battle axe on that hostility and you start treating him with respect and trying to build a relationship, guess what? You're gonna win. If you use the battle axe on him, he's gonna break out a bigger battle axe. And guess what? He has one, cuz he's the boss. He's got a much bigger battle axe.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Yes, he does. And technically, isn't that the whole watering the roots thing? You know?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  The systemic problem solving. Start with yourself, you know?

• 1:02:51Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's definitely part of it.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, kinda.

• 1:02:54Jocko Willink?

  That's part of it.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Fit it in there.

• 1:02:57Jocko Willink?

  Next. Strategisms for desperate situations. Number thirty-one. The beauty trap.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  Send your enemy beautiful women to cause discord within his camp. This stratagem can work on three levels. First, the ruler becomes so enamored with the beauty that he neglects his duties and allows his vigilance to wane. Second, other males at court will begin to display aggressive behavior that inflames minor differences, hindering cooperation and destroying morale. Third, other females at court, motivated by jealousy and envy, begin to plot intrigues, further exacerbating the situation. This is also known as the honey trap.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Honey trap.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  They do that on Rambo, First Blood, Part Two. He had that, remember that cohort?

• 1:03:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, man.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  He had a girl, a Vietnamese girl, if I'm not mistaken, and he meets her. Her name's Ko. Yep. So they go, and they gotta take down, you know, they gotta save the Pdovis. And the girl disguises herself as, I think, a Vietnamese prostitute, if I'm not mistaken, on a moped.

• 1:04:09Jocko Willink?

  Honey trap.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they're like, oh, neglecting their duties, all this stuff. Boom, they come in. But to add to the whole scenario, she's like actual warrior, though. So it's like double layered.

• 1:04:21Jocko Willink?

  Next thing you know, she's getting after it.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Getting, totally getting after it.

• 1:04:25Jocko Willink?

  Check. Number thirty-two.

• 1:04:28Jocko Willink?

  The Empty Fort Strategy. When the enemy has superior numbers and your situation is such that you expect to be overrun at any moment, then drop all pretense of military preparedness and act calmly so that the enemy will think you're setting an ambush. This stratagem is to be used sparingly and only after one has first developed a reputation for military prowess. This also depends on having a clever opponent who, in perceiving the trap, may overthink his reaction.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  That one takes guts, but I guess the, the, it not only takes guts, but you might not have any other choice, right? Like your, your chances, like, okay, we're just gonna act like this is no big deal.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:10Jocko Willink?

  Just gonna act like this is no big deal. Who was telling me a story about that? Maybe it was you, or maybe it was Jade. About being in Australia? Were you telling me about that? Was that Jade?

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Possibly. What was the story?

• 1:05:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, like...

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I was telling you, going into the alley.

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  I was telling you about Jade's story.

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, yeah. Was that on the podcast that you did that?

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  But, the point is Jade had a choice. Act like, okay, so he sees a situation could be hostile, and his choice was like, okay, I don't really have a choice here. I can either act scared, in which case I'm gonna become a victim. That's, that's, or I can act nonchalant, and there's a possibility I don't become a victim because they see that I'm like, whatever.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:57Jocko Willink?

  And so that's what he did, and guess what? The guy was like, "G'day, mate, how you doing?"

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Luckily, he's in Australia. Next. Thirty-three. Let the enemy's own spy sow discord in the enemy camp. Undermine your enemy's ability to fight by secretly causing discord between him and his friends, allies, advisors, families, commanders, soldiers, and population. While he is preoccupied in settling internal disputes, his ability to attack or defend is compromised.

• 1:06:31Jocko Willink?

  For some reason I have the word "truth" written here.

• 1:06:35Jocko Willink?

  And I think the reason, oh, I, this is what I have that, this is why I have that there. I was thinking to myself, "How do you do this?"

• 1:06:42Jocko Willink?

  And the, one of the best ways to sow discord amongst people is to tell them the truth about what's happening. How so? Well, you've got some enemy camp. And you start, you start saying, "Hey, look."

• 1:06:57Jocko Willink?

  Start saying, "Look how, look how the boss is living."

• 1:07:01Jocko Willink?

  I got it. Let's just pay attention to how the boss is living. I'm just telling you the truth. The truth is, the boss is eating crab legs every night. Yep. You guess what you're eating? Chicken patties. I know, bro. So, I was on the ship, I think it was the, I think it was the USS Cleveland. And there was an underground newspaper on the ship, but there was basically leakers that were telling the troops, the sailors on the ship, what they were eating in the wardroom where the officers were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that word started getting around. We eat chicken patties. Try eating chicken patties for 48 days straight. You know what? Hey, that's a lot of chicken patties. You're not, you're not gonna, you're not gonna want any more chicken patties. No. But then you get word that they're eating crab legs. That was the big one.

• 1:07:43Jocko Willink?

  I don't even like crab legs, but everyone else seemed to like crab legs. They were mad when they found out that's what the wardroom was. So, what they did was, just the, just telling the truth caused discord. Just telling the truth. Yeah, makes sense. Now, of course, you can weave in some lies, right? But just, what I'm saying is, oftentimes, the truth is the most powerful weapon Yeah. to cause discord. Now, I'll always tell you that truth is the most powerful weapon.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  Definitely. Truth is the most powerful weapon that you have. Like, just in general? Just in general. Yeah. Just in general. The truth is the most powerful weapon you have for yourself. You can be truthful with yourself, if you can be truthful with people around you. Now... Does, does this mean you tell the truth every single time? No, because you, sometimes the chicken is dry and you just need to keep that to yourself, right? That's a legit one. We talked about that before.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  But, truth, truth is definitely the most powerful tool that you have. And even when it comes to creating discord, the best, let me put it to you this way, let me just, I don't want to go through this whole tangent, but the best, if you're gonna create discord, it's more powerful to create discord using the truth than it is trying to create discord using lies. Because the lie can be unwound and figured out. The truth, when they go, well, no, that's not true. And then you go, oh wait, that is true? That's a problem. That's a real problem. Thirty-four. Inflict injury on oneself to win the enemy's trust. Pretending to be injured has two possible applications. In the first, the enemy is lulled into relaxing his guard since he no longer considers you an immediate threat.

• 1:09:21Jocko Willink?

  The second is a way of ingratiating yourself to your enemy by pretending the energy, the injury was caused by a mutual enemy.

• 1:09:32Jocko Willink?

  Build that little bit of trust. Remember when I talked about, remember when I talked about when you, if you come to me and you're emotional, you're all mad about something and I have to, to tamper down the emotion, but I can't, I have to show you some of the same emotion. I reflect it, but I diminish it a little bit. That's a way of building trust between us, right? Well, it's the same thing if I'm like, oh, look, you come and look what they did to me. And I go, look what they did to me too.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's the same thing. They wounded me too. Look at this.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:03Jocko Willink?

  I'm also mad at them. We're a team now.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I do that with my daughter, by the way.

• 1:10:08Jocko Willink?

  What's that?

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  When she, she had a hangnail. This is last night even. Hangnail. And she didn't know what a hangnail is. I think it's her first hangnail. She's five.

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  Sad. It's sad because you got all those hangnails, hangnails coming your way.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, a very rich hangnail future for her. Uh, so I'm like, yeah, I see just little things. Yeah, that used to happen to me when I was little too. So it's kind of like, oh, we both kind of have that same scenario. Same thing, bruh.

• 1:10:34Jocko Willink?

  Dude, mutual hangnail hatred, you know, let's bring the team together, unite against hangnails.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, it's real, it's real.

• 1:10:43Jocko Willink?

  Hey man, I'm a hundred percent on board. Hangnails are real. I didn't know you had hangnails, man. I have them too.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Jocko Willink?

  We're tight.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  A little bit of bond.

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  Thirty-five, chain stratagems. In important matters, one should use several stratagems applied simultaneously after another as in a chain of stratagems. Keep different plans operating in an overall scheme. However, in this manner, if any one stratagem fails, then the chain breaks and the whole scheme fails. Now, I completely agree with the first part of this, which is yeah, you should train these things together. Which is obviously what we do in jiu-jitsu. You use one move and that's setting up another move, which is setting up another move in the defense. That one sets up another move. But I don't agree with the fact that if one of them breaks, they all, the whole thing falls apart. That, that shouldn't be necessarily true. You should set up your stratagems, your stratagems that

• 1:11:36Jocko Willink?

  you expect that some of them are not, are gonna fail a little bit and that's okay, because that's why you got the backup ones, right?

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, seems like it.

• 1:11:42Jocko Willink?

  Am I wrong?

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  I don't think you're wrong, no.

• 1:11:46Jocko Willink?

  And chaining things together, that's, you have to do that. You have to hit from multiple angles and you have to have, that's, that's the Uda loop, right? That's like, hey, I'm gonna do this and then you're gonna react and I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be there and with the next one, there with the next one and there with the next one. Having a heads up on things makes such a big difference. In other words,

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  just so much of winning in jiu-jitsu is that I know what you're gonna do before you do it. So much of winning in combat is I know what you're gonna do before you do it. Setting these things up properly, chaining them together, so that the enemy doesn't know, the opponent doesn't know the next thing in the chain, but you do.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think he

• 1:12:26Jocko Willink?

  That's powerful.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I agree. The It seems like he's looking at it like the, the, the chain of stratagems is like a totem pole. Where it should be like a tree or like a web or something.

• 1:12:38Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Where you can kind of go and this can break off and it can come back. But yeah, his one is like, like a straight up, like an actual chain, you know?

• 1:12:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  One link breaks, it's like a old chain. But.

• 1:12:49Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:12:51Jocko Willink?

  Last one, number thirty six.

• 1:12:55Jocko Willink?

  If all else fails, retreat.

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  Important one. If it becomes obvious that your current course of action will lead to defeat, then retreat and regroup. When your side is losing, there are only three choices remaining: surrender, compromise, or escape. Surrender is complete defeat.

• 1:13:23Jocko Willink?

  We don't want that. Compromise is half defeat. Might be an okay outcome.

• 1:13:32Jocko Willink?

  Especially when compared to the alternative, which is just surrender, which is total defeat. But escape is not defeat.

• 1:13:42Jocko Willink?

  As long as you are not defeated, you will still have a chance.

• 1:13:51Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's a fitting end to this. And again, this is something that people get wrapped around all the time. They don't want to give up. They don't want to give up. They don't want to give up. In skydiving,

• 1:14:05Jocko Willink?

  you have a malfunction. If you have a malfunction, you, you try and fix it for a little while. At two thousand feet, I think it is, was what I learned in the military

• 1:14:18Jocko Willink?

  free fall. At two thousand feet, you make the decision, I'm not going to get that parachute open. I'm going to cut that one away and I'm going to bring out my secondary. But guys would, you know, in the parachute world, and right now the parachutes are getting so good that it's, it's a lot more rare, but guys would get target fixation on trying to fix the bad parachute that was up there. And they'd look at it and look at it and try and fix it and try and fix it and try and fix it and try and fix it. And then they, they did hit. So

• 1:14:48Jocko Willink?

  sometimes you gotta retreat. It's okay.

• 1:14:55Jocko Willink?

  It's okay. Surrender is complete defeat. Compromise is half defeat. But escape is not defeat. And as long as you are not defeated, you still have a chance. So retreating is smart sometimes. It's okay. And I think that's a good lesson. It's okay to retreat, but never, never surrender. And that's that book. Which definitely some good lessons in there. Learned some new ones, reinforced some other ones. Hoping that everyone out there listening learned something from that too. And if you did, and you want to give the podcast some

• 1:15:40Jocko Willink?

  support, Chiboja. Then here's how you can do it.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  And support yourself, by the way.

• 1:15:47Jocko Willink?

  Actually, could be the more important thing.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  I think so. Yes.

• 1:15:51Jocko Willink?

  I think it's the more important thing.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Because yeah, like on the plane, right? You know, the oxygen mask?

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  Oxygen's coming down. That's right.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  You can't just start putting the mask on your kid.

• 1:16:01Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  What if you suffocate? Can't help nobody. So you gotta support yourself.

• 1:16:05Jocko Willink?

  Help yourself first. You can't support what we're doing here. If you're not on the path, right?

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  That's the primary thing. That's what we're talking about.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  So, to begin, a good way. Let's start with Origin. Fitting name for the way to begin the support get it. Origin. Layers. In the industry, we call those layers. Anyway, Origin. This is what Origin is. It is a American-made company that delivers American-made products. Starting with gis, jujitsu gis. For jujitsu, not just generic gis with a name on it.

• 1:16:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not that.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:16:47Jocko Willink?

  Not generic.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, that's something.

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  These aren't the kind of gees where you'd be like, hey, you know what? I think I'm going to go down to the market right now.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna put on my gi. You know, maybe if you're doing that, you maybe don't need an origin gi. You get whatever gi if you go down to the market.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00Jocko Willink?

  But if you're doing jujitsu with your gi.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Jocko Willink?

  We recommend you go with the the origin gi.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Jocko Willink?

  Which is made in America. Which is awesome.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  The cotton is grown.

• 1:17:11Jocko Willink?

  Yes, grown here. American hands. People are working. People are working in Maine. We're bringing that back. So, yeah, get those. And rash guards as well.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:22Jocko Willink?

  Woven, woven material here.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, they kind of got everything. They got, um, you know, regular clothes as well. Joggers, sweat suits, whatnot.

• 1:17:32Jocko Willink?

  I was having a discussion, which I'm not gonna go into. But I will go into this part of the discussion. I was in discussion with someone that was like,

• 1:17:39Jocko Willink?

  basically telling me like, well, you know, th- th- this business, this business is hard. What we do is hard in this business. They were trying to tell me that what they were doing in this business was hard. I was like, hey, it's not that hard. What you're doing, and trust me, what they're doing is not that hard. Trust me, there's some businesses, I I work with a lot of different businesses, some complex businesses out there in the world. Really complex. The business particular that I was talking to, that I was having this discussion with, that was telling me how hard their business was, which, what does that sound like to you? When someone's like, oh, you know, it's really hard. That's an excuse. Of cour- hey, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it, right?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Jocko Willink?

  So you got, you know, it's really hard. This business is really hard. I was like, you wanna talk about hard? I'm like, try getting an ancient loom up and running.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Jocko Willink?

  And weaving material that hasn't been done in forty years here in America. Weaving, there's eight million little threads going in this thing. Try sorting that out.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Yo.

• 1:18:39Jocko Willink?

  Don't tell me your business is hard.

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that seems hard.

• 1:18:42Jocko Willink?

  That's hard. But it's being done right here in America.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:46Jocko Willink?

  At Origin.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, really good stuff on there. Also, supplements.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Jaco Supplements. Okay, joint warfare, krill oil, and discipline, and milk. So, consider these four, they all kind of play into each other. Joint warfare, obviously, warfare against degeneration of joints. Not against your joints, it's for the joints. It's your joints waging war on degeneration. Anyway.

• 1:19:13Jocko Willink?

  Good point.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  However you want to spin it, nonetheless, it's for your joints, krill oil, same thing, omega 3s. Really good for general health as well. If you like protein supplements, milk. See what I did there? I didn't call it protein powder.

• 1:19:25Jocko Willink?

  That's good.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Jocko Willink?

  That's good. It's very understated, too, which I'm down with, you can understate it.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Jocko Willink?

  Because the bottom line is if you like delicious things in the world, you're gonna like milk.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, milk is peanut, or not peanut butter, it's gonna be peanut butter chocolate.

• 1:19:43Jocko Willink?

  Peanut butter.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:44Jocko Willink?

  Those are inbound.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, someone sent me a picture, tweet, I think it's on Twitter. One hand, chocolate milk jug, other hand, milk. He said, "I'm gonna take it for the team, do the experiment." Remember? I said, "Mix the milk with chocolate milk, see what up." Might be too chocolatey, might be.

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  What was the deal?

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  I don't know, he just said he was gonna do it.

• 1:20:04Jocko Willink?

  He didn't give the verdict?

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Not yet.

• 1:20:06Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of jacked up.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  He just indicated he was commencing with the experiment.

• 1:20:10Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of jacked up. We will have milk at the emergent camp. Jiu-Jitsu Emergent Camp, August 26th through September 2nd, up in Maine, on Echo Lake, Layers. So, come up and hang out with me, with Leif, with Echo, with Dave Burke. Still not 100% on JP. But yeah, we're gonna be up there, in Maine, doing jiu-jitsu.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  And hanging out.

• 1:20:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and Dean Lister.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:35Jocko Willink?

  No big deal, Dean Lister.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  And Andy's going, too?

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  It looks like Andy's going.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Andy Burke.

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Andy Burke's gonna be going, so we'll be all just training and getting after it.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  And hanging out. Here's the thing, it doesn't sound as dope when we're hanging out, but here's the thing, it is ultimately.

• 1:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, cuz you can only, you can only do jujitsu. How many hours a day can you do jujitsu?

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Well, you know, depends on who you are, obviously.

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  Call it eight?

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  We'll call it eight.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  So eight and eight, so eight hours, then you sleep for eight hours.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:02Jocko Willink?

  What does that leave you?

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Eight more.

• 1:21:04Jocko Willink?

  Eight more hours, you gotta fill those eight hours.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Eight hours of hanging out, man.

• 1:21:06Jocko Willink?

  Eight hours of hanging out. Eight hours of cru- can we be cruising? Is that a cruising scenario?

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  Big time, yeah. I'll be cruising, big time, if I'm not doing the jujitsu. Actually, so I'll be halfway in jujitsu, halfway out.

• 1:21:16Jocko Willink?

  You got the injury.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Limited jujitsu.

• 1:21:18Jocko Willink?

  Limited.

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  Not too limited, but we'll, we'll just say limited. Anyway, yes. Yes, August 26th to September 2nd, is it?

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Cool. Also, good way to support is, go to jocko store dot com. That's right, Jocko is a store. It's called Jocko Store. Anyway, it's where you can get t-shirts, rash guards, hoodies, hats, you know, all these stuff, uh, products, we'll say, that we put out. Discipline equals freedom shirts.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  What's the new one? What did I put on there that's new? Oh.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  Is there a new discipline equals freedom shirt? Is that up yet?

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:21:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  It's not up yet.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  It will be up in a couple of weeks?

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  It'll be up in a couple, maybe even one week, so it could be up technically by the time.

• 1:22:04Jocko Willink?

  So it's up.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  This hits the waves. It's up. Alright, cool.

• 1:22:07Jocko Willink?

  The new shirt is up.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, discipline equals freedom, new one. Uh, but yeah, if you wanna represent, go there, jocko store dot com.

• 1:22:13Jocko Willink?

  Use the word represent. I like that.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  There it is, boom. I think it's, the new one is, uh, take the high ground, or the high ground will take you.

• 1:22:25Jocko Willink?

  That's a fact.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Something like that. Unless, if you, um, actually we have an email list, right, and don't really talk about this, offer it. They didn't want it to be an annoying thing, you know how sometimes you go to a website, it'll pop up in your face and you can't like move forward.

• 1:22:39Jocko Willink?

  Sign up, sign up, sign up, sign up.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so, you know, I try not to do that.

• 1:22:43Jocko Willink?

  Cuz people wanna, they actually use the word, they wanna capture.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Capture, yeah.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Capture your email.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, technically, yeah, I don't wanna capture.

• 1:22:51Jocko Willink?

  We're so out of the game, actually, when you think about it. Or it's not in the game.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Well, I considered it. Like you, you just said, like how, I mean, even your tone indicated how you feel when a pop up with a form, you know, comes in. It's kind of like when you, um, like, let's say you go on a first date with someone and they give you like a contract or something. It's kind of like, hey, sign this before we can take any steps forward with what we already planned, we were doing, by the way. Anyway, yes, I know. We do have an email, like you can sign, put your email and sign up for the email list. If you want, and it's there, it's accessible, but I think it's on the bottom. If I'm obviously on the other website on the side. Anyway, it's there. It will not be a pop up in here.

• 1:23:31Jocko Willink?

  Ever.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  And for ever, no, ever, ever, ever. And furthermore, if you sign up for that, you won't get the daily. Oh, you know, this and that, and this and that, and this every day. Cause let's face it, Kay, I signed up for, I think it was Bud K, it's called. It's like knives and stuff. They're just cool knives. So I signed up for that one and every single day, man, I'm getting the thing. I'm like, cool. The first day I'm like, cool, that's cool. Second day I'm like, cool, that's kind of the same thing as you sent me yesterday, whatever. Daily, man, daily. So that feeling I got, I don't want other people to have that feeling about Jaco's store. So anyway, you can sign up for the email list if you want.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  And what I will send you every four months, if ever, I'll send you an email that says like, okay, if there's a new shirt that everyone was requi, you know how like, uh, take the high road or the high road will take you. Like people, so many people were emailing me saying, hey, we should do this one, do this should do. So it's kind of that, you know, it's like everyone's input. Okay, new shirt, boom, I'll email everybody. Okay, this is a new shirt. It's like that kind of stuff and it's very rare.

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  I don't want it to be.

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  You've gotten the input through it before too. I remember one time you asked for colors.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  Right, right, yes. So yeah, that kind of stuff. It won't be annoying stuff like, hey, three things that you don't care about, click, you know, I won't do that stuff ever, ever, ever.

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, that's what's going on. Jaco's store.com, if you want to represent, get some stuff, get some stuff. Good way to support.

• 1:25:03Jocko Willink?

  Also subscribe to the podcast, this podcast, iTunes, wherever, Google Play, Stitcher, leave reviews and all that stuff. And also if you didn't know, we got the Warrior Kid podcast, which. Yeah, you you might not think that you would listen to it, but if you got kids, definitely, they'll dig it and good podcast to listen to. Lately, I've been lately, I've been telling stories from Uncle Jake from when Uncle Jake was a kid. Uncle Jake is sharing stories of his childhood that have little lessons in them.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Big lesson.

• 1:25:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, even big lessons and but but they're not their stories.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:25:45Jocko Willink?

  And that's been kind of the direction. The last couple podcasts have had a a story from Uncle Jake, story from Uncle Jake that we can all learn from. So that is the Warrior Kid Podcast. I answer some questions from Warrior Kids and then they're short too. They're like 20 minutes because kids should not be sitting around listening to a four hour podcast. We only do that because we got to like work to do, commute, all that stuff.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:12Jocko Willink?

  Yard work.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good. It's kind of good for the parent, actually really good for the parents and teachers, by the way.

• 1:26:17Jocko Willink?

  No, I've gotten great feedback from parents and teachers. Absolutely.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Because it's like these, I mean, a lot of their questions, the Q and A kids questions, you know, they send in and you answer them eloquently, I might add.

• 1:26:29Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake's pretty eloquent.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like to think so for sure. But, you know, in real life, these kids ask their parents these questions or the teacher, you know, and sometimes, you know, maybe the teacher on the spot, maybe it's busy or maybe they don't know or something like that. So like, you know, I see it. I know that I do it for myself. When I listen to it, I'm like, okay, boom, because I've heard that question before and these answers a little bit better than mine, you know?

• 1:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Check. Also, the YouTube channel. We got a YouTube channel. It's called Jocko Podcast and that's where Echo puts the videos and the video excerpts and enhanced video excerpts. So you can check that out too, which is cool. And yeah, do that.

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  It's good. A good way to support for sure. Subscribe to, you already said iTunes and stuff, Google Play. Yeah, so that's a good way to support. Seemingly an easy, obvious thing, but it is a good way to support legitimately.

• 1:27:29Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  Also.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  Onit.com slash Jaco by the way, okay. What is on it? We all know what on it is, but if you don't know, it's where you can get the best fitness gear. It's where you get all mine.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Just, I was gonna get a bag.

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, like the sandbag things?

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  I got one.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:54Jocko Willink?

  They're good, they're good.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, like so, you, it was, I forget it was.

• 1:27:58Jocko Willink?

  They're good for the big functional strike.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you know how, um.

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  You know what I gotta figure out though? Remember that bag that they had up in Maine? The 200 pound bag? I gotta figure out what the deal is with that so I can rehearse.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Actually, it's pretty simple.

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  If you gotta make a game time adjustment to do it, you're gonna be like, okay, this is hard.

• 1:28:20Jocko Willink?

  Do you have to press it?

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:28:22Jocko Willink?

  Just clean it?

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, put it over your shoulder, you have to shoulder it.

• 1:28:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  So, the thing is, and, tell me if this is cheating. Okay, so, to lay out the scenario, there's a 200 pound bag of gravel.

• 1:28:34Jocko Willink?

  So, that's what it is?

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, 200 pounds, which is heavy.

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  No handles?

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  No handles, it's a sack of gravel. Not a canvas like made out of the ghee either, it's like.

• 1:28:45Jocko Willink?

  Nylon.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's real flowy. 200 pounds, you'd say dead weight, it's extra dead weight. Anyway. So, and you gotta just put it on your shoulder, that's it. Pick it off, pick it up off the ground, put it on your shoulder. So, tell me if this is cheating. So, I did it in AA, and succeeded. But, I tried, not the first time. I tried it once and I was like, whoa, and you know, it falls down. I'm like, man. But, uh, Mike, one of the guys there, he said, hey, when you lift it up first, you gotta keep the weight on the forward part, because you know, when you lift it up, it kinda divides the bag kinda into, because it flows, you know, the gravel kinda flows to the, to the ends or whatever.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  You gotta divide it up, but when you divide it up, you gotta keep more of the weight, more on the, on the, on the front part. Not on the, the part closer to you, because it'll just flow down and it just doesn't work. His, his explanation way more short than that, but um, so is that cheating? So it's like, alright, I did it and then I, I.

• 1:29:44Jocko Willink?

  And then it was easy?

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  No, it's not easy.

• 1:29:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so it's hard.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard. Like if you practice or something, it'll be easy.

• 1:29:50Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  I mean, you're strong enough to do it for sure, um.

• 1:29:54Jocko Willink?

  But the technique, there's some technique.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  To get it up there, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard. But nonetheless, um, the, my point was with the bag is, you know how, okay, you know, you lift a bunch of weights and this guy or me or whatever, we can bench a lot, squat a lot, but then, you know, when you're doing like yard work and you gotta, I don't know, shovel a bunch of dirt in a wheelbarrow and you're picking it up and you're trying to lift it up this little hill and you're like.

• 1:30:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's like when you roll with guys that work construction, they have, they have legit strength that comes to the other side.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So I'm like, man, I'll buy one of these bags and just sort of like have it part of the workout. You know, do some hills or something with it, you know?

• 1:30:34Jocko Willink?

  Do it.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  I don't know, but anyway, on it.com slash there, there's a lot of cool stuff on there. Dances and kettlebells and whatnot.

• 1:30:41Jocko Willink?

  All kinds of good stuff. Uh, psychological warfare album. You can get on iTunes, Google Play, MP3. We're working on the second one. If you got something you want to, me to address psychologically, let me know now. And uh, I'll start putting together a little list. And we'll get it into your brain psychologically.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:31:02Jocko Willink?

  And speaking of which, speaking of psychological, how's this for psychological right here? Hold on, here we go. It's this.

• 1:31:12Jocko Willink?

  You know what that is? That right there? That's Jocka White Tea in a can. You can get it, you can get it at Amazon right now. It's available in Canada too. And it tastes delicious, which is fine. You want things that taste good, that's good. It's good for you. Replace the crap that you drink. The energy drinks that you drink, get rid of them.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  Get this instead. You will absolutely feel better. You'll be more healthy and bonus. You'll be able to deadlift hundred percent guaranteed eight thousand pounds. So that right there is good enough. While you're on Amazon as well, you can get some books. We got the way of the warrior kid books.

• 1:31:52Jocko Willink?

  Just check them out. Just check them out. That's my statement. Check them out. Warrior Kid books. Feedback's unbelievable. Kids getting after it. Once they read those books. The Discipline Equals Freedom field manual. How to get after it. It's a manual on how to get after it.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and kind of stay after it.

• 1:32:11Jocko Willink?

  And stay after it, yes. Cause if you get after it for a couple hours and then that's all the getting after it you're doing.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Jocko Willink?

  That's not gonna help you. If you crack that book open though, you'll see. Just crack it open. If you want to listen to it, you can get it as an album with tracks. iTunes, Google Play, all that. It's not on Audible. Extreme Ownership's the other book. Been out for a while. It's still, people still buying it. And it's about leadership. It's about combat leadership and how to

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  use combat leadership principles in your business, in your life, and obviously in combat as well. And then on top of that, Leif and I have a new book that we are, I keep saying that we just finished it. I think it was Tim Ferriss I heard say like, oh, he was writing a book and he was, yeah, I'm done with my book. And one of his friends that was a writer was like, okay, cool. You're 50% there. And that's the truth. When you get done writing it, you're 50% there. Cause there's a ton of work that you still have to do. I finished a round of edits yesterday. And what's cool is, reading the book, I'm super stoked on the book and people are gonna get a lot out of it. It's called The Dichotomy of Leadership. It comes out September 25th. My publisher, who listens to this podcast, who hears me say these things, doesn't get it.

• 1:33:29Jocko Willink?

  They're not gonna order enough books. They're like, well, you know, you never know and we don't want to take too much risk. Order the book now, so that you get a book when it comes out. First edition. You don't want second edition, third edition. That's lifetime evidence that you weren't in the game. Don't let it happen. And then when you meet me and you're like, hey, can you sign your, sign my book? And I was like, cool, yeah, I'll sign your second edition book. Sadness. The first edition, I'll be like, ayy, we go back. We go back.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  So like the second edition, you'll just sort of sign your name and then with a line or something, but the first edition, you'll sign your name.

• 1:34:07Jocko Willink?

  Glad you were in the game and you were to support that whole one and we're here, we're together. Oh, second edition, how you doing? Poser. Are you a poser if you get the second edition? Maybe. Well, anyways, all kidding aside, that's coming out September 25th. If you want to get that dichotomy of leadership, how to balance all those little things you gotta balance as a leader. That's what you gotta do. Speaking of leadership, if you need leadership, training inside your organization, Echelon Front, echelonfront.com, we solve problems through leadership. It's me, it's Leif, JP, Dave. Got Mike Sorelli on board. Got Flynn Cochran on board. We're expanding, we're growing.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  We're getting after it. And we got the muster. The muster's coming up in October, San Francisco, 17th and 18th. All the other musters have sold out. I think we're dropping a video. Probably already, the video will be dropped.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's already.

• 1:35:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know, but it hasn't been circulated.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:12Jocko Willink?

  So we're gonna circulate little, what do you call that? Advertisement video?

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, technically.

• 1:35:19Jocko Willink?

  Informational video?

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Informational.

• 1:35:21Jocko Willink?

  Informational?

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  It's more kinda like, as if to say, is, I'll put it as accurately as possible. It's to say, hey, look, the countdown for this thing, because we all knew it was coming. It's number six. There's number five before that. Hey, we knew it was coming. Hey, the countdown to this event is official. It's official. We're counting the days down right now.

• 1:35:40Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  It's months, but.

• 1:35:41Jocko Willink?

  San Francisco, October 17th and 18th. All the other ones have sold out. If you want to come, better get registered, extremeownership.com. And also, we got the the Roll Call, September 21st in Dallas, Texas. That is for uniform personnel, police, firefighters, law enforcement, military, Border Patrol, paramedics, first responders, all them. We put that together so that we you can get out there one day, real quick. Leadership seminar for you all. So, same thing, registered, extremeownership.com, come and get some.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to continue this conversation with us virtually until you see us live at the muster, or you see us live at the roll call, or you see us live in August

• 1:36:36Jocko Willink?

  at the immersion camp up in Maine, then during the time where you're waiting to see us live, guess what? We can still kind of carry on this conversation virtually via the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram, and the Facebook. Echo's at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And speaking of those in the military, for those of you in the military that hold the line against evil, and also to those that are in police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, border patrol, first responders, thanks to all of you for being ready to respond anytime, anyplace. Thanks to your families as well for supporting you while you support

• 1:37:21Jocko Willink?

  us. And everyone else out there, thanks for listening, thanks for supporting, thanks for fighting, fighting to be smarter and stronger and faster and better. Thanks for putting forth the effort every second of every day. And thanks for remembering what the ancient spirit of Wu taught us. As long as you are not defeated, you still have a chance. So keep getting up and keep getting after it. Until next time, this is Echo and Jaco out.