133: Face History so You Can Learn From It. The Horrors of Unit 731.

0:00:00 - Opening: Testimony Unit 731, by Hal Gold https://amzn.to/2N6YEQS. 0:11:24 - Unit 731, By Pete Williams https://amzn.to/2ztQMqL. 1:40:33 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:44:39 - Support. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 133 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  And this podcast will cover a horrific subject of history. And it is not for children or the faint of heart. So listener discretion is advised.

• 0:35Jocko Willink?

  I am a war criminal.

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  I served in Manchuko, that phony country created by Japan.

• 0:48Jocko Willink?

  In 1992, a group of us went to China to apologize to the family members of the people we had sent to Unit 731.

• 1:02Jocko Willink?

  One woman, now about 60, was the grandchild of one of the victims.

• 1:08Jocko Willink?

  She told us our grandfather was killed by Unit 731 in experiments.

• 1:15Jocko Willink?

  He was killed because the Kenpaitai sent him.

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  If you hadn't sent him, he would have lived. You are killers just like those doctors.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  We prostrated ourselves an apology and she kept pressing the fact home that we were partners in crime as guilty as the doctors of Unit 731.

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  And it's true.

• 1:45Jocko Willink?

  It is just as she said.

• 1:48Jocko Willink?

  Apologizing does not erase the crime.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  We were the aggressors. Most of the Japanese participants in the war were aggressors.

• 2:02Jocko Willink?

  Orders came from above, orders from the emperor.

• 2:07Jocko Willink?

  And people were killed because it couldn't be helped.

• 2:12Jocko Willink?

  According to International Convention, those who kill in combat are not criminals.

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  The 3,000 people killed by Unit 731 were all sent there by the Kenpaitai or the police.

• 2:31Jocko Willink?

  The American Navy was attacked at Pearl Harbor, and the Japanese thought it was a victorious strike. Yet, within two years, America had built up its naval strength again. America is a machine society. But bacteriological warfare does not rely on machines. So Ishii's idea was to kill the attacking Russians with disease. Once killed, troops are not rebuilt like machinery. The Japanese Army promised Chinese children money for bringing in rats, but later gave

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  them a pencil for every rat. The end purpose of all this effort was war. In war, the side who kills more people wins. Bacteria can kill on a large scale, so Ishii pressed this forward. And that is testimony from a Kentepi officer, which was kind of like a secret police that served in Japan, leading up to and during World War II.

• 4:01Jocko Willink?

  And this is a part of history that I don't really want to talk about, no one does, but of course, to ignore it, to think that if we pretend it didn't happen, that only opens up the door for it to happen again.

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  So this is the story of Unit 731, an arm of the Japanese Imperial Army, that along with some other associated units, they developed, tested, and employed chemical and biological warfare weapons.

• 4:43Jocko Willink?

  And there's two books that I reviewed and will be referring to during this podcast. One is Unit 731, by Pete Williams and David Wallace, and the other is Unit 731 Testimony, by Hal Gold.

• 5:06Jocko Willink?

  And

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  the history

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  and the acts that are accounted for in these books really show what man is capable of.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  Especially under malevolent leadership.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  And in this case, the leader that is primarily culpable for the crimes of Unit 731 is the individual referred to in that opening statement. A guy named by the name of Ishi, Shiro Ishi,

• 5:42Jocko Willink?

  who was born June 25th, 1892, the fourth son in a wealthy land-owning family. He was a smart, apparently very smart individual. He was a big, tall, kind of strapping guy. And by most accounts, he was a pretty arrogant individual as well.

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  And he went to school to become a doctor and join the army. And there he studied

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  bacteriology and serology, which is the, the study of blood and pathogens in the blood. And he was also a fiercely patriotic and nationalistic individual.

• 6:30Jocko Willink?

  And what that meant in Japan at this time was a feeling of total superiority. Both a cultural superiority and a racial superiority. Cultural and racial superiority, superiority over the rest of Asia and really over the rest of the world.

• 6:51Jocko Willink?

  And he moved up through the ranks fairly quickly and he had done some traveling and of course saw what things that happened in World War I and he saw chemical and biological warfare as a way to win wars and obviously Japan is a island nation with limited resources and so you need some advantage and he thought the advantage that Japan could get was chemical and biological warfare and in order to really maximize that advantage he believed that these

• 7:32Jocko Willink?

  weapons needed to be tested on people he believed that human experimentation was the pathway to move ahead of the rest of the world technologically in these departments and oddly enough he gained a decent amount of clout and prestige by inventing a water filtration system that could provide clean water to soldiers on the front line which was a really big deal and and the book the book testimony the unit 731 testimony goes into pretty good

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  detail about the number of people that were killed in in wars back then and how many of them would die of diseases and and malnutrition from being sick from the water having diseases and whatnot and so he developed this this filtration system that worked really well and he ended up actually taking advantage of that a little too much and he used that technology which he'd come up with to get some kickback payments from a commercial company that manufactured the filters and that kind of got him in some trouble but that troubles overcome because he had some political connections that he had gained and he got back on path and continue to gain rank and and gain stature and with that rank

• 8:58Jocko Willink?

  and that stature that he gained he convinced his leadership to allow him to begin a highly secret program where he would make

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  And test the biological and chemical weapons. And again, at this time, chemical and biological weapons were very politically sensitive. So this is in the mid 1930s, the end of World War I had had only occurred just prior to this, really, 20 years. And

• 9:36Jocko Willink?

  people remembered those, those wars, that war, and they remembered the horrors of those weapons. And, and that's why international law had forbidden these weapons.

• 9:50Jocko Willink?

  But Ishii didn't care.

• 9:53Jocko Willink?

  Ishii was there to win at any cost.

• 9:59Jocko Willink?

  And because of the view of the chemical and biological weapons at this time and the political sensitivity around them, he couldn't do what he wanted to do inside of Japan.

• 10:12Jocko Willink?

  Because these weapons are dangerous, first of all, but again, the political sensitivities around them, that was okay, because he had other plans. And he opened his first laboratory in Manchuria, an area of China that was at this time under the brutal control of Imperial Japan.

• 10:31Jocko Willink?

  And the first laboratory that he put together was outside of a city called Harbin. And interestingly, the unit maintained a level of cover.

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  Meaning their, their purpose wasn't made known to the world, that people, they advertised the unit that they put in Manchuria, that it was all about water purification. And they, and they actually did water purification there, so it was a good cover story.

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  But what was really being focused on underneath that cover was the creation of biological and chemical weapons that they could use for war.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  And as Ishii

• 11:19Jocko Willink?

  made progression, the project expanded. And now I'm going to go to the book, Unit 731 by Peter Williams and David Wallace.

• 11:35Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. In a few short years, Ishii's project had hurdled from relative obscurity to one of top-secret and national importance. It took two years to construct the establishment's 150 or so buildings, which included accommodation for thousands of people, a railway siding, an incinerator and powerhouse with tall cooling towers, an animal house, an airfield, a large administration building, an exercise yard, and a strange, forbidding, square-shaped building known as Ro Block. R-O.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese character "ro" is "square" in shape, hence the name of the building. Although Ro Block looked square from the outside, hidden from view in the center were two other buildings known as Blocks 7 and 8.

• 12:26Jocko Willink?

  Ro Block was the center of bacteria production and disease research. Block 7 and 8 had a more sinister purpose.

• 12:36Jocko Willink?

  Unit 731's bacteriological research division was divided into more than a dozen squads, each investigating the warfare possibility of a wide variety of diseases. Plague, anthrax, dysentery, typhoid, parathyroid, cholera, and many other exotic and unknown diseases were studied.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  Every conceivable facility was given to Unit 731. So I think that's important because they were getting a lot of money. This wasn't like a little rogue project that wasn't being supported. As a matter of fact, here, so too were luxuries lavished on the lifestyle of Ishii's researchers and workers. In the remote Manchurian plain at Pingfan, a whole biological township grew up. It was known as Togo Village. So around this Unit 731, there's a whole village that got created, and they were all living the good life. By the way, while Japan is not living, the rest of Japan is, you know, getting ready

• 13:38Jocko Willink?

  to go to war or at war in various parts of the world and living lean, here they're living large.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, Togo villagers had plentiful supplies of the best foods at times when people in Tokyo were starving. Ping Fan was centrally heated against the bitter sub-zero temperatures of the Manchurian winter. Naturally, it had the best sanitation, including even western style lavatories. So he took care of his people. And his people and he were getting taken care of. Building a bacterial weapon, Ishii found out, was not an easy task. He and his researchers faced a myriad of problems. What kind of microorganisms would make an effective biological warfare agent? Should it have a lethal or incapacitating effect?

• 14:29Jocko Willink?

  Could it be produced in quantity sufficient for wartime employment? Could these living organisms be kept alive through storage and shipment to their ultimate employment on the battlefield? What type of munition would be needed to deliver the agent to the target? What were the technical and military characteristics of such a weapon? So he started from ground zero, trying to figure all this out. Ishii approached the problem by looking for weapons that could be delivered from altitude by aircraft, causing massive outbreaks of epidemics. Ever since his trip to Europe, plague had fascinated Ishii, and I talked about his travel, and this is, they're talking a little bit about that here. He knew it would make a deadly weapon if it could be harnessed.

• 15:11Jocko Willink?

  It is highly infectious, with an incubation period of three to four days, sometimes up to a week. The onset is abrupt with chills, high fever, and extreme weakness. The eyes redden, the face becomes congested, and the tongue coated. Victims can become maniacally delirious, and death may be rapid, sometimes within one day. Compared with some bacterial pathogens, plague is only moderately infectious, but more virulent strains can be cultivated.

• 15:42Jocko Willink?

  Plague could create casualties, often out of all proportion to the number of bacteria disseminated. Ishii deduced therefore, that it would make an efficient weapon set about preparing the most dangerous strains. And at some point on this podcast, we'll talk about the Black Plague, which is an epidemic that was insane in Europe. But when you, when you, when you have any knowledge about the Black Plague, and you read about someone that's looking at it saying, "Hey, this looks like a good idea", you realize that this is just a sick, sadistic person. Plague had another advantage for Ishii. Its origins could be concealed.

• 16:26Jocko Willink?

  Science had not then provided a satisfactory answer to the age-old question of why, where, for how long, and how badly a plague epidemic broke out. So he, he just thought, "Yeah, this is great. We can cover it up." The plague hits our enemy and we, you know, we don't know where it came from.

• 16:47Jocko Willink?

  So they are producing this. They begin to produce this. So large was the production plant that in the heyday of Unit 731, it had the potential for creating sufficient bacteria to kill the world's population several times over.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  Now that Ishii could produce plague and other virulent bacteria in sufficient quantities for warfare, his next task was to discover how he could deliver his deadly microbes to the enemy. And obviously, I'm not reading this entire book and, and there's more detail about the process of getting to breed these bacteria.

• 17:25Jocko Willink?

  Once they figured out how to breed it, and now we gotta figure out how to deliver it. How are we gonna attack the enemy with this?

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  He tries all kinds of different things, and then finally back to the book. His eye had come to rest upon the humble flea. As in nature, so too in war, this minute insect could be relied upon as the carrier of pestilence.

• 17:49Jocko Willink?

  To yield vast quantities of fleas and feed them, enormous numbers of rats had to be caught and bred. This was the job of Unit 731's animal house, run by Ishii's elder brother, Mitsuo.

• 18:06Jocko Willink?

  There's like a, as I was reading this, there's like this whole image of, I mean, are there, you just think about the, the reputation of rats and fleas, right? Rats and fleas are just, they're the worst, right? And, and it just paints this picture. You just see rats and fleas and this is what they're breeding. Yeah. This could, this is like a horror movie. Yeah, yeah.

• 18:37Jocko Willink?

  At, back to the book. At times of peak production, members of Ishii's force were required to dress in civilian clothes and go rat catching.

• 18:49Jocko Willink?

  He found a method suitable for weapons use. Here's a description of the flea factory. The second division had four special premises for the mass breeding of fleas in which a mixed temperature, a fixed temperature of thirty degrees Celsius was maintained. Metal jars thirty centimeters high and fifty centimeters wide were used for the breeding of fleas. Rice husks were poured into the jars to keep the fleas in. After these preparations, a few fleas were put into each jar and also a white rat for them to feed on. The rat was fastened in such a way as to not hurt the fleas.

• 19:29Jocko Willink?

  It's a horror movie. But, they, so they're, they're going through this process of breeding fleas, breeding rats, using the rats to feed the fleas and raise the fleas so that they can put these fleas into containers. They're trying out all different kind of containers and how to drop them and how to spread them and as they're figuring all that out, it, they're doing other things as well and it wasn't just rats and fleas there at unit seven thirty-one. Back to the book. Hidden from the outside world at the center of unit seven thirty-one's roadblock was Ishii's secret of secrets. So carefully was its existence kept secret that many junior members of unit seven thirty-one had no knowledge that it was there at all.

• 20:15Jocko Willink?

  For prisoners to pass through the tunnel entrance was to start a journey of no return. Only two things were certain. Agony and death.

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  Three of the Ishi brothers, including Takiyo, Mitsuo, and of course, the youngest, Shiro, worked at Ping Fain. Takiyo was the prison commander. The prison's guards were second or third sons from the Ishi brothers' village, Kamo.

• 20:48Jocko Willink?

  They were called the Special Squad. Tied by bonds of peasant loyalty to their lord and master, they worshipped him. They called him "The Honorable Ishi," or sometimes in reverence, "War God Ishi." Most were uneducated, but all were unswervingly loyal. To ensure allegiance, Ishi paid them extra allowances for their terrible and dangerous duties, the sort of money sent home for which would support whole families through difficult times to come, even pay for their brothers' and sisters' educations.

• 21:22Jocko Willink?

  "No Kamo villager has ever publicly spoken, even today, about their former life in Manchuria. The village is silent. The Ishi family name is still revered for its kindness. Asked about Unit 731, older residents will apprehensively reply, "I have nothing to say because it concerns the secrets of the Honorable Shiro Ishi."

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  Ishi based his unit in remote northern Manchuria so he could experiment on human beings. There, in what was a police state, he could be given an uninterrupted supply of human guinea pigs. With the unique data gained from the human experiments, Ishi believed Japan could outstrip the rest of the world in developing this new weapon of war. No other country would have such accurate details about how epidemics spread, or how to protect against them.

• 22:17Jocko Willink?

  Only Japan would fully master the twin fields of biological warfare: offense and defense.

• 22:25Jocko Willink?

  From the earliest days, Ishii appears to have employed human guinea pigs.

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  It was performed on prisoners who were sentenced to death at Harbin Prison. Each prisoner was placed in a closely guarded cell while the experiments took place.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  After death, the bodies were burned in an electric furnace to leave no trace.

• 22:51Jocko Willink?

  By 1935, motion pictures of human experiments were customarily being shown to senior staff officers.

• 23:00Jocko Willink?

  Occupied Manchuria and Harbin in particular was an ideal location for supply of human fodder. And I should say that, so it started off, they would use prisoners that were sentenced to death. That's, that's where it started, but the supply wasn't enough and it escalated from there just to, just abnormal people.

• 23:21Jocko Willink?

  And here's where it talks about that a little bit, back to the book. Occupied Manchuria and Harbin in particular was an ideal location for supply of human fodder. Harbin, a multi-racial city of shifting minority groups, was a nest of spies. In addition, Japan's occupation had brought forth strong resistance from both Chinese nationalists and Chinese communists, as well as indigenous Manchurians and Mongolians. There was also a large white Russian population caught in the middle between communist Russia and expansionist Japan. To maintain control in these difficult circumstances was the job of this Japanese secret service agency

• 24:03Jocko Willink?

  called the Tokomu Kikan and the Kenpita. They did so through brutal tactics of fear. Anyone who voiced opposition to the self-declared, declared a paradise of Manchuko was liable to detention. Many never returned. The Japanese Secret Service Guide to the Fundamental Rules for Interrogating War Prisoners reveals that world. So this is a document which I'm going to read a couple of parts of, of, of how you torture people. Their, their process for torturing people.

• 24:42Jocko Willink?

  Number sixty-two. Sometimes, depending on circumstances, it is advantageous to resort to torture. Torture, the infliction, number sixty-three, torture, the infliction of physical suffering must be sustained and continued in such a way that there should be no other way of relief from suffering except by giving truthful information.

• 25:05Jocko Willink?

  Torture is advantageous because of the speed with which it is possible, with relative ease, to compel persons of weak will to give truthful testimony. But there is danger that, in order to relieve himself from suffering, or in order to please the interrogator, the person interrogated will, on the contrary, distort the truth.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  In the case of persons of strong will, torture may strengthen their will to resist and leave ill-feeling against the empire after the interrogation.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  In relation to persons of weak will, torture is usually applied in those cases when the person interrogated does not speak the truth, even in the face of evidence, but there is full reason to suppose that this person will speak frankly if torture is applied.

• 25:53Jocko Willink?

  It is necessary to bear in mind that the methods of torture must be such as can easily be applied, as will sustain suffering, without rousing feelings of pity, and as will not leave either wounds or scars. So, let's think about that right there. What they're saying is that the torture has to be so easy to apply, that the person that's doing the torture won't feel sorry for him.

• 26:23Jocko Willink?

  However, in cases where it's necessary to create the apprehension of death, the harm caused to the person interrogated can be ignored, but this must be done in such a way as to not make it impossible to continue, not make it impossible to continue the interrogation. After the application of torture, it is necessary to convince the person who has undergone the torture, that the torture applied to him was quite a natural measure, or to take such measures as will induce him out of his sense of pride, sense of honor, etc., not to speak about it afterwards. So that's when you say, "Hey, look, we tortured you, and you broke, and you're weak, and you should be embarrassed about it."

• 27:02Jocko Willink?

  Number 69. "Nobody must know about this application of torture except the persons concerned with this. Under no circumstances must other prisoners know about it. It is very important to take measures to prevent shrieks from being heard."

• 27:20Jocko Willink?

  So they had their methodology. They had their standard operating procedures. "To be a spy or dissident in Manchuria was to risk death by firing squad or decapitation.

• 27:33Jocko Willink?

  But there was an alternative far worse. Death at the hands of Unit 731."

• 27:41Jocko Willink?

  "Unsuspecting and innocent people were also tricked into the clutches of Unit 731. Some were lured by the prospect of employment. Young boys, mothers and children, even pregnant women were trapped."

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  Here's a medical orderly named Ishibashi, who carried out checkups on, and there's a word here, "marutas." And you're gonna hear what "marutas." This is what they described the people that are being held, the prisoners inside of Unit 731. They called them "marutas," or "maruta," singular.

• 28:23Jocko Willink?

  And here's what the orderly had to say about it. "I started to work for Unit 731 at age of 18 in the special section which did the checkups on new prisoners.

• 28:35Jocko Willink?

  We took details of their blood type, its pulse and pressure and other things. Prisoners were all referred to as 'maruta,' which is the Japanese word for a log of wood.

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  Although when they arrived, they had cards each with their name, birthplace, reason for arrest and age. We simply gave them a number.

• 28:59Jocko Willink?

  A maruta was just a number, a piece of experimental material.

• 29:05Jocko Willink?

  They were not even regarded as human beings.

• 29:09Jocko Willink?

  Most were between 20 and 40 years old, none were over 50. They seemed to know their fate.

• 29:17Jocko Willink?

  We did terrible things."

• 29:23Jocko Willink?

  So you can see some obvious dehumanization. They don't call them people. They call them logs. They give them a number, not a name. Very standard practice for dehumanization.

• 29:38Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The prison was a vision of hell. Through the spy hole cut in the steel doors of each cell, the plight of the chained Marutas could be seen. Some had rotting limbs, bits of bone protruding through the skin, blackened by necrosis. Others were sweating in high fever, writhing in agony or moaning in pain. Those who suffered from respiratory infections coughed incessantly. Some were bloated, some emaciated, and others were blistered or had open wounds. Many of the cells were communal. An infected person would be put in

• 30:16Jocko Willink?

  with healthy Marutas to see how easily diseases spread. In desperation, Marutas would try to practice primitive preventive medicine to escape the diseases. Through these little spy holes, the most acute symptoms of the worst diseases in the world were coldly observed by 731's white-coated doctors.

• 30:44Jocko Willink?

  Marutas were used up at the rate of 2 to 3 per day.

• 30:54Jocko Willink?

  The dichotomy between the doctors' true vocation and the need to build a medically-based weapon was well and expediently expressed by an individual, probably Ishii, at the initial assembly of Unit 731. So this is a quote: "Our God-given mission as doctors is to challenge all varieties of disease-causing microorganisms, to block all roads of intrusion into the human body, to annihilate all foreign matter resident in our bodies, and to devise the most expeditious treatments possible."

• 31:29Jocko Willink?

  However, the research upon which we are now about to embark is the complete opposite of these principles and may cause us some anguish as doctors. Nevertheless, I beseech you to pursue this research based on the double medical thrill. One, a scientist to exert effort to probing for the truth in the natural science and research and into and discovery of the unknown world and two, as a military person to successfully

• 32:06Jocko Willink?

  build a powerful military weapon against the enemy. One young serologist, Dr. Akimoto, sent from the Tokyo Imperial University to Manchuria by his professor, recalled the horror of discovering the true purpose of an epidemic prevention and water supply unit. And here's what he said, "I was very shocked when I arrived and found out about the human experiments. Very few of those scientists had a sense of conscience. They were treated, they treated the prisoners like animals. The prisoners were the enemy.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  They would eventually be sentenced to death. They thought the prisoners would die an honorable death if in the process they contributed to the progress of medical science. I was very frightened although my work involved no human experiments. I wrote my resignation three or four times, but there was no way to get out. I was told that if I left, I might secretly be executed." So yeah, and I, this is covered in pretty good depth in the book. There was like a whole recruiting process to bring the best doctors and scientists from all the universities in Japan up to Manchuria to work there. So these young kids are becoming doctors thinking they're gonna go out there and save people and the exact opposite happens.

• 33:38Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Syphilis was studied. Many female Marutas died as Unit 731 endeavored to solve the venereal disease epidemics raging through the ranks of Imperial Japanese Army as its military hordes marauded around the Asian continent.

• 33:57Jocko Willink?

  On one occasion, a pregnant woman was deliberately infected with the disease and when her child was born, both were dissected.

• 34:12Jocko Willink?

  Cruel experiments were not confined to the roadblock. Five hours from Pingfan by truck lay anta proving ground. Unit 731's Education Division Chief Lieutenant Colonel Nishi took part in one experiment. Here are his comments. "An experiment in which I participated was performed in infecting 10 Chinese war prisoners with Gas Gang Green. The object of the experiment was to ascertain whether it was possible to infect people with Gas Gang Green at a temperature of 20 degrees Celsius below zero.

• 34:52Jocko Willink?

  This experiment was performed in the following way. 10 Chinese war prisoners were tied to stakes at a distance of 10 to 20 meters from a shrapnel bomb that was charged with Gas Gang Green.

• 35:05Jocko Willink?

  To prevent the men from being killed outright, their heads and backs were protected with a special metal shield and thick quilted blankets, but their legs and buttocks were left unprotected.

• 35:20Jocko Willink?

  The bomb was exploded by means of an electric switch and the shrapnel bearing Gas Gang Green germs scattered all over the spot where the experimentees were bound.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  All the experimentees were wounded in the legs or buttocks and seven days later, they died in great torment."

• 35:51Jocko Willink?

  Miraculously, some Marudas survived all infection experiments, developing remarkable immunities.

• 35:59Jocko Willink?

  But their fate was always the same. Unit 731 had many other uses for human fodder. So, they talk about this in the book, how some people would develop immunity. Some guys were just super tough, just tough. And in fact, there's one where they talk about, they finally kill this guy after experimenting. He was a 65-year-old guy, he was just tough. He survived all these different infections, all these different diseases, and they finally, when they kill him, they open him up, they dissect him, and they see that he's like, got the organs of a 25-year-old or something. But it didn't matter. Even if you were resistant to diseases, they had other experiments to do.

• 36:43Jocko Willink?

  The education chief, Nishi, had some other recollections about some of those other experiments.

• 36:51Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. "With temperatures below negative 20 degrees Celsius, people were brought out from the detachment's prison into the open.

• 36:59Jocko Willink?

  Their arms were bared and made to freeze with the help of an artificial current of air. This was done until their frozen arms, when struck with a short stick, emitted a sound resembling that which a board gives out when it is struck."

• 37:18Jocko Willink?

  A film was made on this subject, too.

• 37:26Jocko Willink?

  Here's another account of these... So, they were trying to figure out things about frostbite and what people could take, because they were going to be fighting up in the steppes of Manchuria in Russia. They thought they'd be fighting there, so they had to figure out, do experiments to figure out how to heal frostbite, once it happened, and how much cold someone could take.

• 37:50Jocko Willink?

  Here's a printer that worked there. And here's a account of what he witnessed. "Two naked men were put in an area 40 to 50 degrees below zero, and researchers filmed the whole process until they died.

• 38:07Jocko Willink?

  They suffered such agony, they were digging their nails into each other's flesh."

• 38:17Jocko Willink?

  This was military life. You couldn't say "I want to do this or that in war, however good or bad." The Japanese way is to obey a superior.

• 38:27Jocko Willink?

  It was the same as if the order came from the emperor.

• 38:32Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes there were no anesthetics. They screamed and screamed.

• 38:38Jocko Willink?

  But we didn't regard the logs as human beings.

• 38:44Jocko Willink?

  They were lumps of meat on a chopping block.

• 38:58Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese way is to obey a superior.

• 39:03Jocko Willink?

  I talk about that all the time, you got a question?

• 39:08Jocko Willink?

  You've got a question?

• 39:12Jocko Willink?

  Continuing. Detachment 731 had a sister unit. It was called the 716 Chemical Warfare Unit. Tests were carried out in a large cloud chamber the size of a telephone box. Made of thick steel, it had an agitator in the ceiling connected by large pipes to a gas-producing machine.

• 39:36Jocko Willink?

  Marudas were put in a truck, tied to a pole, and pushed inside, some naked, some in full army uniform and some in gas masks. 731 and 516 researchers watched them gasp and convulse to their deaths through the chamber's reinforced glass window.

• 39:57Jocko Willink?

  A young mother and her baby were even put to death in this chamber.

• 40:04Jocko Willink?

  She desperately tried to protect her child from the fumes by covering it with her body.

• 40:13Jocko Willink?

  She died lying on top of her child.

• 40:23Jocko Willink?

  Here's another account from a medical orderly

• 40:30Jocko Willink?

  about other experiments beyond cold and beyond chemical and beyond, beyond biological. Here we get to malnutrition. I saw malnutrition experiments. They were conducted by the project team under the technician Yoshi Mura. He was a civilian member of Unit 731. The purpose of the experiments, I believe, was to find out how long a human being could survive with just water and biscuits. Two marudas were used for this experiment. They continuously circled a prescribed course within the grounds of the unit, carrying approximately a 20 kilogram sandbag on their backs.

• 41:11Jocko Willink?

  One succumbed before the other, but they both ultimately died.

• 41:17Jocko Willink?

  The duration of the experiment was about two months.

• 41:22Jocko Willink?

  They only received army biscuits to eat and water to drink, so that they would not have been able to survive for very long.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  They weren't allowed a lot of sleep either.

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  And here's

• 41:43Jocko Willink?

  one of the major generals, Kawashima. And he talks about the fate of some of the marudas. From 500 to 600 prisoners were consigned to Detachment 731 annually. If a prisoner survived the inoculation of lethal bacteria, this did not save him from a repetition of the experiments which continued until death from the infection supervened.

• 42:11Jocko Willink?

  The infected people were given medical treatment in order to test various methods of cure. They were fed normally and after they had fully recovered,

• 42:20Jocko Willink?

  were used for the next experiment, but infected with a different kind of germ. At any rate, no one ever left this factory alive.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  Following anatomical study, the bodies of the dead were burned in the detachment's incinerator.

• 42:44Jocko Willink?

  So as I said, there's, even if you're just tough as nails, they're just gonna give you a different disease, or more disease.

• 42:58Jocko Willink?

  And

• 43:00Jocko Willink?

  all pretty horrible, and now it gets worse.

• 43:05Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Perhaps the greatest horror of Unit 731 was vivisection.

• 43:16Jocko Willink?

  Unit 731 had two teams of pathologists. One headed by Dr. Akamoto, the other by Dr. Ishikawa.

• 43:30Jocko Willink?

  Anatomical study performed by these squads was not always confined to the dead.

• 43:38Jocko Willink?

  Pathology Squad Assistant Kirum Zawa saw vivisections. "Unit 731 did work on living human bodies," he said.

• 43:53Jocko Willink?

  "To do this work, our sentiments were suppressed."

• 44:01Jocko Willink?

  So this is a whole new level. We're actually dissecting or vivisecting people that are alive.

• 44:11Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. "Some doctors are said to have come all the way from Japan just to see such a dissection. Laboratory assistants got extra pay, called the chemical weapons allowance for wielding the scalpel during this dreadful work.

• 44:26Jocko Willink?

  Blood is said often to have spurted all over the ceiling of the dissection room as certain incisions were made. Limbs of the dying Marudas would flex and jerk involuntarily as the scalpel entered particular parts of the brain. Organs would twitch vigorously after they were thrown into jars of formalin for preservation. Not only were anesthetics researched, but also bizarre surgical experiments connecting different parts of the body are reported to have been performed."

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 45:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is, this is a horror movie that's actually happening. You got sewing different parts of the body together. This is just... A horror movie, except this is not a movie.

• 45:21Jocko Willink?

  And... The...

• 45:26Jocko Willink?

  The people that are being referred to as Marudas right now are people.

• 45:34Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, "The world will probably never learn of all the grisly experiments that took place at Unit 731." Among them were pressure experiments, similar to those carried out by Dr. Raishur at Dakao Concentration Camp.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  Presumably done on behalf of the Japanese Air Force, it was an extremely painful method of killing. Individual placed in the Unit 731 pressure chamber would suffer terrible agony as their eyes first popped out of their sockets, as the eye membrane ruptured, and later as blood forced its way out through pores in the skin.

• 46:21Jocko Willink?

  Marudas had their blood siphoned off and replaced with horse blood in plasma experiments. It was said that the number of these poor men, women, and children who became Marudas were mummified, alive in total dehydration experiments. They sweated to death under the heat of hot, dry fans. At death, their corpses weighed only one-fifth normal body weight.

• 46:46Jocko Willink?

  Others were electrocuted, boiled alive, killed in giant centrifuges, or died from prolonged exposure to X-rays.

• 46:58Jocko Willink?

  In all, some 3,000 are said to have been murdered.

• 47:03Jocko Willink?

  Some were just killed off when there was an excess of supply.

• 47:08Jocko Willink?

  They were killed like animals in an abattoir.

• 47:13Jocko Willink?

  Every bit of their bodies mercilessly used up in the name of the terrible medicine of military science.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 47:31Jocko Willink?

  as Ishii went on with these experiments, he was, he got worried about something.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  And this is what he got worried about. Back to the book, "There was a small but crucial chance that some of his weapons might not work on American or Anglo-Saxon racial groups."

• 47:52Jocko Willink?

  In 1943, researcher Utsumi was sent on trips to Inner Mongolia to study the immunities of Mongolians and other races. Another had already been sent to a place called Mukden.

• 48:05Jocko Willink?

  So Mukden's another prison camp. So, he got concerned that, as he did these experiments, that some diseases affect different races differently, and there was some chance that, "Oh, if we'd use this type of bacteria against an Anglo-Saxon or a white person, it might not work. So, we gotta, we gotta figure that one out."

• 48:27Jocko Willink?

  Well, the Japanese had captured Americans, and Brits, and Australians.

• 48:36Jocko Willink?

  So, here we're gonna hear a little bit about the prisoners in Mukden. Look, I said, is another prison camp. Back to the book, Warren W. Welchel,

• 48:46Jocko Willink?

  known more familiarly as Pappy, came from Tulsa, Oklahoma, was a master sergeant with the US 200, 200th Coast Artillery Anti-Aircraft Regiment. On April 9th, 1942, Baton fell. On May 6th, so did Corregidor. Pappy Welchel and 88,000 other Americans and Filipinos were captured. Pappy remembers, "It was the beginning of one of the most dehumanizing experiences ever perpetrated on humans."

• 49:20Jocko Willink?

  Welchel and his fellow prisoners had to endure the familiar ill-treatment the Japanese meted out to prisoners of war. A proceeding that is understandable only if viewed from the Japanese standpoint that to die in battle is honorable but to surrender is to be shamed. But is also dehumanizing because, unknown to him, he was to become a human guinea pig in Japan's experimental program as they sought to build weapons of biological warfare. Welchel was to spend three years of his life as one of the 1,485 American and British and Australian and New Zealand prisoners of war who were herded into a special prison

• 49:59Jocko Willink?

  camp in Manchuria at Mukden. And of course, they hiked there. Back to the book, the route the 1,000 American prisoners took to Mukden began with what became known as the Baton Death March. "We were subjected to beatings, killings, forced marches during the heat of the day. We were deprived of food, water, and any medical attention whatsoever." Pappy Welchel remembered. They were penned in two camps in the Philippines.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  Hundreds more died, both in the camp and from suffocation as more than 100 crammed into boxcars on the journey from one camp to another. Then in October of 1942, about 1,000 US troops had been singled out and marched to Manila, the capital of the Philippines. They went aboard the Japanese vessel Totori Maru. And here's a quote, "From the moment we went aboard that hellship, they were experimenting on us. They threw us aboard to see how much we could stand and how many of us died. They took us from the tropics to a bitterly cold climate and that took its toll on us. They gave us few crackers and little rice to eat, and I feel that it was a systematic

• 51:24Jocko Willink?

  way of beginning to test us, to find out how much the Americans and the British and Australians could endure."

• 51:32Jocko Willink?

  And that was said by Greg Rodriguez Senior, now retired from his career as a foreman in Henrietta, Oklahoma. Rodriguez was a private in 59 Coastal Attorney Corps, US Army. He survived the journey to Mookton and three years in the camp itself. Now, there's another guy named Robert Peaty, who was a senior British officer. And he was also in prison in Mookton and he kept a daily diary. Or at least he tried to keep a daily diary and he kept it in code form.

• 52:14Jocko Willink?

  But here's some, here's some of his entries into his journal. 19 April, 43. Another Japanese medical investigation started today as apparently the findings of the first did not meet with approval. 24 May, diarrhea is increasing. 25 May, waiting for medicine for diarrhea, which was not forthcoming. Men were ordered to exercise by playing baseball. 26 May, diagnosis of diarrhea consists of running the men around the parade ground. I saw some of them with bare feet. Those who do not mess their pants or drop from exhaustion are reckoned to be liars and are told to go back.

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  A protest has been made and a change is expected in both methods and personnel. 4 June, third Japanese medical investigation started. 5 June, anti-dysentery inoculation, one-half cc, including Fleischer Y. 8 June, diarrhea still steadily increasing. 13 June, second anti-dysentery shot, one cc. 6 August, there are now 208 dead.

• 53:41Jocko Willink?

  So as they're doing these experiments and they've got these dead bodies of American, Australian, British soldiers. They're still trying to utilize them when they're dead to try and learn from them.

• 53:58Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, "One morning early in 1943, Frank James was assigned to burial detail." This is of some of those bodies. "I was pretty sick myself, but I wouldn't go to the hospital because nobody that went in ever came out. I went round to the hut and there must have been, I reckon, 340 bodies stacked there. Each body had a tag attached to its toe.

• 54:23Jocko Willink?

  There were two or three men who I took to be Japanese doctors there. They were all masked 100%. All the time they were there, their faces were covered. Another fellow and I were told to lift up the bodies and put them on the autopsy tables. Then they began to cut them open. They went deep into the stomach, the bile, the small intestine, and they took what looked like pancreas and lungs.

• 54:49Jocko Willink?

  They also operated on the heads and took part of the brain."

• 54:58Jocko Willink?

  So, just a horror, a horror show.

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  For the prisoners,

• 55:08Jocko Willink?

  the end of their incarceration in Munkin was quite matter of fact. And again, this is a fast forward and it also skips ahead a little bit, talking about how, how the war ended and what that was like.

• 55:21Jocko Willink?

  "After days of rumor, Major Peet's diary records for August 16th, 1945. "Six men were brought into camp this evening. And from the fact that they were smoking more than the regulation distance from an ashtray, we knew they were not prisoners of war. After an unusually good supper, all prisoners were released from the guardhouse."

• 55:44Jocko Willink?

  And he continues on, this is on 20 August. At about 7:00 PM, a small Russian, a small party of Russian officers arrived and announced that we are now free.

• 55:58Jocko Willink?

  The Russian officer in charge said, "Here they are. Do what you like with them. Cut their throats or shoot them, it's all the same to me."

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  But this was translated diplomatically as, "He says he hands them over to you." For Major Petey and the hundreds who had survived the privations of Mukden, the victory was theirs in every sense.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  "They had no need, they decided to seek reprisals. It would have been," said the major, "beneath our dignity. It would have reduced us to their level. After all, they had to live the rest of their lives with what they'd done."

• 56:43Jocko Willink?

  So, the horror show ends and these, these soldiers that had been tortured and killed, murdered, they, they decide they're not even going to take revenge because they don't want to, they don't want to lower themselves to that level. That's amazing.

• 57:03Jocko Willink?

  But like I said, that had skipped ahead. The war still wasn't over. And here we go, back to the book. Ishii expected the final and decisive battle would take place between June and September 1945, when America attempted to land on Japan proper. Okinawa, Japan's own island bastion, fell in June. The month before, Germany had surrendered. Russia urged by Britain and America at Yalta, turned their attention to Manchuria. For forces swelled on both sides of the Soviet Manchurian border as millions of troops remained at standoff point.

• 57:40Jocko Willink?

  Tanaka's Flea Factory was expanded and given more staff. With 4,500 flea breeding machines in operation, 100 million insects could be produced every few days. Ishii planned to breed 300 kilograms, approximately 1 billion plague fleas in the run-up to war. Special training courses in flea breeding were set up at Pingfen in June, and sub-unit members ordered back afterwards to establish their own production bases. To propagate plague cultures and to feed the fleas, rats were needed in their thousands. Yamada ordered every land unit of the Quantong Army to trap rats.

• 58:28Jocko Willink?

  Karasawa's new conveyor system, and again, I'm throwing names in here that are explained with a lot more detail in the book. That's why you buy the book and read the book, so you can get the full picture. Karasawa's new conveyor system was working round the clock, producing plague, typhoid, cholera, and anthrax organisms, which were sufficient, if correctly dispersed, to infect half the planet.

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  Between midnight and 1 a.m. on the morning of August 9th, after Hiroshima had been devastated by the atomic bomb, the Soviet Army swept across the border into Manchuria and Korea with a massive force of 1.5 million men, 5,500 tanks, and 5,000 airplanes. The Quantong Army was thrown into panic. Confusion broke loose. That day, or the day after, Yamada ordered the destruction of Units 731 and 100. Again, 731, we've been talking about. 100 was another one of these parallel units that was doing the same type of stuff. A nearby Sapper unit was ordered to blow up Pingfen's main headquarters. The unit's personnel were to destroy all evidence

• 59:41Jocko Willink?

  and be evacuated to Seoul in Korea. A second bomb was yet to be dropped on Nagasaki. So here, the war is obviously turning. We drop the bomb, and they go to cover their tracks. They would completely destroy everything, destroy the buildings, destroy all the records, destroy everything.

• 1:00:01Jocko Willink?

  And when I say everything, I mean everything. Here we go back to the book at Pingfang. Marudas were the first to be destroyed.

• 1:00:09Jocko Willink?

  Members of the 516 Chemical Warfare Unit gassed the Marudas by throwing flasks of toxic chemicals into their cells. 600 local Manchurian and Chinese laborers who worked at the Yagasawa Plant Disease Farm and elsewhere at Pingfang were machine-gunned. Potassium cyanide poison was also put into the Marudas' breakfast food.

• 1:00:36Jocko Willink?

  So, they're just trying to, like I said, destroy everything and make it like it didn't happen. And as they wrap this up, the rest of Unit 731, expecting a few left behind for final clearing up, assembled on the 13th and 14th at the shunting yard. Ishii made a formal speech, extolling the memory of Unit 731 and its diligent research. As if in mockery of him, it was interrupted by the sound of a prison exploding. Members were issued vials of poison. Ishii had originally wished every branch member and all families in Togo Village to commit suicide.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  But this proposal was met the violent disagreement of Major General Kikuchi, 731's research chief. Nonetheless, some took their lives without orders from Ishii.

• 1:01:32Jocko Willink?

  So he thought they should all kill themselves. Got a little resistance there. I would have thought that Kikuchi, perhaps, would have provided more resistance

• 1:01:47Jocko Willink?

  against the behavior that they were occurring to, not just to, you just want to protect himself here at the end.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I'm not gonna question anything as long as it doesn't affect me, right? That's what that is. On August 15th, the Emperor broadcast Japan's defeat and surrender. It had never occurred to Ishii that Japan might give in.

• 1:02:10Jocko Willink?

  He had to confirm the broadcast before believing it. Such was the shock that according to one account, Ishii was seen in a listless condition, utterly crestfalling.

• 1:02:21Jocko Willink?

  That day in the late afternoon, Unit 731 train arrived at Hinz King. There, on the following night, Ishii made a final address to the, to his Ernst Wild troops. He swore them to life in the shadows for the rest of their lives. In the light of the candle held by an aide-de-camp, Ishii ordered them never to speak of their military past, never to take official positions in the future, and never again to contact each other. It is a promise that some have kept to this day.

• 1:02:56Jocko Willink?

  The pathetic end of Japan's once mighty biological warfare effort was to let loose thousands of infected rats in the neighborhood of Ping Fan. It caused a local plague epidemic which claimed many innocent lives into the summer of 1946. A unit of 100, a handful of infected horses were freed after the surrender.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, you hear that argument about the, about the dropping of the atomic bombs. And the common argument is always, it would have cost massive amounts of lives on both sides, Americans and Japanese, because the Japanese were gonna fight to the death, and the Americans were gonna kill them all. And so the best thing to do is like, okay, we dropped the atomic bombs. This just kinda makes that a closed deal in my mind. You know, you got people that are trying to, got enough, enough biological weaponry to infect half the world.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  So. And again, jumping forward in this book, get the book so that you can get the whole story. But there's a, a massive investigation that takes place to find out what's going on. There's little leaks. They, they catch wind of a little bit of it, but not a lot of it. And at one point they're interrogating Ishii, and here's Ishii. Ishii denied any involvement. "Our work was to protect soldiers," he said. "Did anyone else concern themselves with biological warfare against crop plants?" "I do not know," replied Ishii. His interrogator made no effort to pursue the matter. Thompson, a veterinarian by training, turned the questions of biological warfare against animals. "We did not do any experiments on large, large animals," said Ishii.

• 1:04:42Jocko Willink?

  "We used small animals as test animals. Besides, we had no veterinarians."

• 1:04:50Jocko Willink?

  "What field tests were made with the plague organism?" He asked. "Due to the danger of it, there were no field experiments with that organism." "There were a great many field mice in Manchuria, and it would have been dangerous to conduct field experiments with plague because the field mice would very easily carry the organisms and start an epidemic." "We conducted the experiments with plague in the laboratory," said Ishii. "What kind of experiments?" Thompson inquired. "We put rats in cages inside the room and sprayed the whole room with plague bacteria." "This was to determine how the rats became infected, whether through the eyes, nose, mouth, or through the skin." "What did you find out?" "The test results were not too favorable." "We usually got 10% infection." "By which way?"

• 1:05:33Jocko Willink?

  "That was the total," said Ishii, misunderstanding the question. "What route was most effective?" Thompson repeated. "Through the nose," said Ishii. "Also, through an open wound." So they're interrogating, he's being pretty...

• 1:05:47Jocko Willink?

  He's lying, he's covering up, but there's, there's a twist that we're gonna see unfold here. And I'll explain it a little bit, so it makes sense as it comes forth. The twist in this story is that the Cold War was about to start, the Cold War was now starting. And America, you know, these experiments that had taken place and knowledge had been gained through this, through these evil experiments. Well, America looked at the knowledge and recognized or saw that there could be knowledge that they didn't, that we didn't have, that America didn't have, and, and decided, let's try and get this knowledge.

• 1:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Now, one of the problems is, and again, this is gonna unfold, but I'll give a, a brief synopsis of it. One of the problems is, if you charge someone with war crimes and you put them on trial, well, you gotta say what they're on, what the war crimes are that they committed. And if you say that the war crimes were committed, were these experiments with chemical and biological weapons, then people are gonna know what the results of the experiments were. And that means the knowledge is gonna be out there, and the knowledge could fall into the hands of people that we were now looking to be facing in another war, which ended up being the Cold War, luckily, not a full war.

• 1:07:13Jocko Willink?

  So, that's how this, that's how this story continues to unfold. Back to the book, there's no question that Ishii as an, as an individual, and many of his associates were guilty of serious war crimes. As a lieutenant general, Ishii was on, Ishii undoubtedly possessed sufficient high military rank to be classified as a Class A war criminal. He was the top of the tree in his own field. His actions as the head of Unit 731 qualified him as a criminal on many accounts. Not only was biological warfare considered extra legal by most countries, but Ishii was also guilty of outrageous conventional war crimes. He had carried out calculated human experimentations on prisoners of war,

• 1:07:58Jocko Willink?

  a conventional war crime that had long been prescribed in the manuals of military law of every major power. He'd carried out similar research against innocent civilians, clearly a crime against humanity. Ishii had taken his biological weapon out of the research laboratory and used it in the field. He had sought autonomy and independence of action for his biological warfare forces throughout the war zones. He had done nothing to restrain the conduct of his subordinates. So this guy is as guilty as they come.

• 1:08:35Jocko Willink?

  They, there was other,

• 1:08:40Jocko Willink?

  other events that took place that were equally bad. And here we go. Some tribunals were held in China, the Philippines, and the Pacific Islands, but most, a total of 314 cases, were held at Yokohama, Japan. At these courts, a sufficient number of medical atrocity cases were heard for them to be considered as a special category. The most well-known and worst case presented by legal section at Yokohama concerned the fate of captured American flyers held by the Japanese Western Army in Kiyushu after April 1945. The appalling experiments to which they had been subjected

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  included vivisection and the substitution of seawater for their blood.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  For this gross act of barbarism on August 27, 1948, the nine Japanese involved were convicted and sentenced either to be hanged or to serve life imprisonment.

• 1:09:44Jocko Willink?

  One, Professor Ishiyama of Kiyushu University, committed suicide in prison. So.

• 1:09:55Jocko Willink?

  Clearly, they had the attitude of like, we're gonna get some of these guys that conducted experiments, and that's exactly what should have, should happen. And this was a much smaller number of people that were tortured and killed and used as human experiments than what was, used it at 731. Continuing on, Cold War tensions had been increasing throughout 1946. The desire to mete out stern justice at the Tokyo trial was increasingly subsumed if found in conflict with the interests of national security. Japan was in the front line. So too now was biological warfare.

• 1:10:39Jocko Willink?

  On August 24th, 1946, Washington cabled MacArthur, ordering him to protect intelligence, especially scientific, which might jeopardize America's national security. It read, "Under present circumstances, intelligence relating to research and development in the field of science and war material should not be disclosed to nations other than the British Commonwealth." Biological warfare intelligence seems by this time to have become too, much too sensitive to be brought into the glare of massive, of a massive international trial. Throughout 1946, both Russia and America appeared to have been reluctant to reveal their hands. In Japan, America appears to have taken some extra precautions to prevent information

• 1:11:24Jocko Willink?

  from falling into Soviet hands. So you can see how it's unfolding. One of these, again, one of the senior officers that is talked about deeply in the book, but I didn't discuss too, too much. His name was NATO. And here's a quote from NATO. "We want to cooperate, and we owe it to the general headquarters, but we have a responsibility to our friends. We took an oath never to divulge information on human experiments. We are afraid some of us will be prosecuted as war criminals. We do not know how much others will be willing to give us.

• 1:12:06Jocko Willink?

  If you can give us documentary immunity, probably we can get everything. The subordinates, not the section chiefs, know all the details. If we contact someone who is a communist, he is liable to tell the Russians."

• 1:12:23Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese were given insurances that war crimes would not be involved.

• 1:12:34Jocko Willink?

  MacArthur sent a five, again, fast forward, MacArthur sent a five-part radio message to Washington showing the extent of his knowledge. It's clear from part five, and they have the whole, the whole message in the book. It is clear from part five of the message that MacArthur favored gaining the biological warfare technical information by offering the assurances that data would not be employed at war crimes trials.

• 1:13:01Jocko Willink?

  And here's Ishii, "I will not reveal the information to the Russians."

• 1:13:10Jocko Willink?

  You can see how this is unfolding. This is like one of those horrible, when a crime gets committed and for whatever little technicality people are getting off, that's exactly what's going on and you can hear it unfolding. And I mean,

• 1:13:23Jocko Willink?

  does national security trump the, it's almost like an ego move, right? It's almost like an ego move, you're gonna make these guys pay. It's also a morality move and it's a justice. It's, I guess it's beyond ego and beyond morality, it's justice. These guys were criminals, these guys did heinous things to other human beings and they should pay. And as, as strong as that case is, it, it didn't seem to hold up to the case of national security. We want to have this information. Not that we were gonna use it, but we better have it. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It's better to have it yourself and not let your enemy have it, which is the Russians at this point. So that's where the decision's getting made.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you gotta kind of consider what's more important, like this justice?

• 1:14:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's exactly the question. And the answer's pretty clear, what the, what the answer is.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Is safety, right? The, I mean, security.

• 1:14:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's national security, national security versus justice.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can get all the justice you want, but then it's gonna create some serious problems in the future. It's kind of like, hmm, you know, is it worth it?

• 1:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  And here's Ishii talking some more. "I cannot give detailed technical data. All the records were destroyed. I never did know many details and I have forgotten what I knew. I can give you general results. I've never heard of Onta, that's another base that they used, until I returned to Pingfan in 1945. I did not visit the location. I am responsible for all that went on at Pingfan. I am willing to shoulder all responsibility. Neither my superiors or my subordinates had anything to do with issuing instructions for experiments. If you ask me specific questions, I can tell you general results. I am wholly responsible for Pingfan. I do not want to see any of my subordinates or superiors get in trouble for what occurred.

• 1:15:13Jocko Willink?

  If you will give me documentary immunity for myself, superiors, subordinates, and subordinates, I can get you all the information for you." So, he's, he's making a deal. He's making a deal, saying, "Look, I'm responsible for everything." And what he's doing is saying, "Look, I'm responsible for everything, and if you give me immunity, I'll get you all the information you want." It's actually a good move. It's a good move on his part, because he says, "I'm responsible for everything." Even if they say, "No, we don't take a deal and we're gonna hang you", he's still, he's still trying to protect as many of his people as he can, up and down the chain of command. "The advisability of complying with Ishii's bargain,

• 1:15:58Jocko Willink?

  war crimes immunity in written form in exchange for scientific data, was to occupy some of Washington's most senior minds throughout the summer of 1947," Ishii continued. "Masuda, Keneko, and NATO, whom you say you know, can give you a lot of information. I would like to be hired by the United States as a biological warfare expert. In preparation for the war with Russia, I can give you the advantage of my 20 years' research and experience. I have given a great deal of thought to tactical problems in the defense against biological warfare. I have made studies on the best agents to be employed in various regions and in cold climates.

• 1:16:38Jocko Willink?

  I can write volume about biological warfare, including the little thought of strategic and tactical employment." God, this guy, this scumbag.

• 1:16:54Jocko Willink?

  So it continues and open back to the book and an open admission about human experimentation, allegations about the the use of biological warfare, even hints about the connection between unit 731 and a member of the Japanese imperial family were all contained in the files of legal sections case 330 by the middle of 1947.

• 1:17:14Jocko Willink?

  How did this come about and why was nothing be done being done about the files contents? So this is getting shut down. That's what's happening. Now here's the sort of the more

• 1:17:25Jocko Willink?

  official opinion back to the book on balance, the subcommittee felt it was desirable to avoid a war crimes prosecution. And here's what they said, since it is believed that the USSR possesses only a small portion of this technical information. And since any war crimes trial would completely reveal such data to all nations. It is felt that such publicity must be avoided in interests of defense and the security of the United States. It is believed it is believed also that war crimes prosecution of Ishii and his associates would serve to stop the flow of much additional information of a technical and scientific nature.

• 1:18:06Jocko Willink?

  It is felt that the use of this information as a basis for war crimes evidence would be a grave detriment to Japanese cooperation with the United States occupation forces in Japan.

• 1:18:22Jocko Willink?

  So there you hear the decisions getting made and that's the way it went. And in the end, going back to the book, no member of unit 731 was called before any British or American military tribunal to account for war crimes. None of them.

• 1:18:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually, not by any British or Americans. Because the Russians, they still went after them. And they, and when they went after them, and they got some of them, they, they made America look bad. They had a big trial. And here's the, the state council, the state council's name was Smirnov. And here we go back to the book. Smirnov spelled out a message intended for the ears of an audience thousands of miles from the courtroom. These men, Ishii and the rest. Now Ishii wasn't a part of this trial, but Ishii and the rest enjoy the protection of those reactionary forces in the imperialist camp who are themselves dreaming of a time when they will be able to hurl upon mankind

• 1:19:25Jocko Willink?

  loads of TNT, atomic bombs, and lethal bacteria. The accused received the sentences as follows, and then they listed these guys, that various soldiers and civilians that served in some of these biological warfare experimentation centers. They got 25 years, 20 years, 18 years, 15 years, 12 years, 10 years, 2 years, 3 years. But, again, those sentences don't include Ishii or the other main players at Unit 731. Because they got kinda protected.

• 1:20:08Jocko Willink?

  Not even kinda, they got protected by America in exchange for their information.

• 1:20:16Jocko Willink?

  Sort of in response to everything that was going on there. On December 27th, 1941, the following story appeared in the New York Times, date lined Tokyo. "No knowledge," MacArthur says. General Macar, General Douglas MacArthur's headquarters said today "There were no known cases in which Japanese used American prisoners in germ warfare experiments." The headquarters added that the Japanese had done some experiments with animals, but that there was no evidence they had ever used human beings. As far as is known here, no Americans held prisoner by the Japanese at Mukden ever accused their captors of having used them as guinea pigs in biological warfare tests.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  So that's all not true. That's all not true.

• 1:21:03Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, to this day, Russia has allowed itself to bask in feelings of more moral superiority over America and not without some justification in respect of the way it brought its Unit 731 criminals to justice.

• 1:21:20Jocko Willink?

  So just that's the way that's the way it flushed out. Now, this, you might think that's a little disturbing. This is equally disturbing. This is just horrible. Back to the book. After the war, most of the scientists of Unit 731 prospered. Much is explained by the clear complicity on the part of the United States authorities in the war crimes of Unit 731. The detachment's civilian researchers and other associated scientists were quite free to return to academia.

• 1:21:58Jocko Willink?

  And it goes through this list, this multiple page list of, of guys that went on to work at the Research Institute for Natural Resources, chief, and another guy was chief research section at a pharmaceutical company.

• 1:22:14Jocko Willink?

  Dr. Ishikawa, once a pathologist at Unit 731, who had brought home within thousands of human pathological samples, became a professor at, at a university in 1944, a position he held throughout the 1960s and 70s. He eventually became president of the university's medical school.

• 1:22:36Jocko Willink?

  The local newspaper once planned to award him with a medal for his contribution to society, but after students who knew of his wartime record objected, the award was canceled. So these guys carried on. Another guy, professor of Shoah University, pharmacological, another professor of bacteriologically at Kyoto University.

• 1:23:03Jocko Willink?

  The list goes on, on and on. Dr. Hisato Yoshimura, who directed Unit 731's frostbite experiments, literally freezing people to death, became a faculty member at the Kyoto Prefectural Medical College in the 1950s, and later its president.

• 1:23:26Jocko Willink?

  And, like I said, that list goes on and on and on. And, of course, we still haven't heard about Ishii yet, the mastermind behind this whole thing. Here we go back to the book. Ishii inherited much of the family's property in Kamo Village. Because you remember Kamo Village is where they bring all these prison guards from their home village so that they'd get the complete loyalty from them. So he inherited much of the property's family, the family property in Kamo Village. His two elder brothers, Takeo and Mitsuo, were childless, unlike Shiro, who fathered six children. Takeo, Unit 731's special prison squad leader, eventually died of liver cancer in Kobe, the city wince's second wife had come.

• 1:24:13Jocko Willink?

  Mitsuo, who once supervised the unit's animal house, outlived his younger brother Shiro, but was unable to work after the war and lived on money gained by selling his country property. Mitsuo and Takeo and their eldest brother Torreio, who had been killed in the Russo Japanese War during Japan's Meiji Period, are buried in the Ishii Family Cemetery at Kamo. On August 17th, 1958, 13 years after the end of the war, in the back room of a stonemason shop near Tama Cemetery's Tokyo, Ishii made his first and apparently only post-war appearance

• 1:24:56Jocko Willink?

  before assembled junior members of his former unit.

• 1:25:01Jocko Willink?

  He reminisced about the early days of Unit 731 in a speech reportedly still rich in xenophobia and elitism. Ishii described how his unit was to have been the salvation of Japan.

• 1:25:17Jocko Willink?

  A country then encircled by the West scientifically impoverished yet spiritually rich. He apologized for their suffering since the end of the war, but urged his audience to remain proud of the memory of Unit 731.

• 1:25:36Jocko Willink?

  And here's a little part of his, what he said. "It was in order that we could have precious human material that the Unit 731 was set for the saving of the nation.

• 1:25:50Jocko Willink?

  National circumstances were not permitting. Unfortunately, we did not achieve our aims."

• 1:26:00Jocko Willink?

  So even after all that,

• 1:26:05Jocko Willink?

  even after all that, even looking back after 13 years after the end of the war, he's looking back and still has the same mindset. And that mentality is hard to understand and I want to shed a little bit of light on that mentality.

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  And do that through some personal accounts of what happened at Unit 731. And that's from this other book. It's called Unit 731 Testimony. And let's go to this book. And I think these make it pretty clear where this mentality comes from.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  So this account is from a captain in the Japanese Imperial Army named Kojima Takeo.

• 1:26:54Jocko Willink?

  And here we go. Perhaps there are some people here, and, and by the way, most of these accounts are from an exhibition that went around Japan, kind of explaining what happened. And people would come to this exhibition and they would capture, if someone was involved in unit 731, or someone remembered, or someone had a story about it, they would capture their account. And that's what this book has a lot of from this exhibition that they did. I think it was in the mid 1990s that they did this exhibition. So this particular person that was, showed up at this exhibition, he was a captain in the Japanese army. His name was Kojima Takeo. And here's what he said. Perhaps there are some people here at this

• 1:27:38Jocko Willink?

  unit 731 exhibition, who think that this was all there was to Japanese aggression at the time. Unit 731 was merely one segment of the dark shadow of Japan's aggression, and I would like to tell of my experience in this. And I think this is why I pulled this one specifically, because this talks about where this came from, where this mentality came from, that Ishii had to the end. We were born and raised in a society of emperorism. A person's absolute responsibility above the army and government was to the emperor.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  The emperor was a living deity. The emperor's command was supreme and controlled the entire country. We were told how we must serve the emperor, how we should behave toward our parents, how should we, we should behave toward our teachers, and how we should behave toward our siblings. We were taught that Japan is a sacred country, that the people of Japan are a superior race, that the people of China, Korea, Southeast Asia, and Russia were all inferior races, and the superior race must govern them. And by doing so, we would bring them happiness. This was the cause to which Japan must devote itself.

• 1:29:04Jocko Willink?

  He goes on again, I'm not reading the entire thing, but you have to get the book to get these entire accounts. Soon after we went into service, we were given training to get our courage up. We were ordered to watch beheadings. Chinese were made to sit by a hole in the ground and the seasoned soldiers would cut their heads off.

• 1:29:28Jocko Willink?

  Blood spurted up from the neck into the air and the bodies would roll into the holes. Then we had bayonet practice.

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  Victims had their hands tied behind them around a tree and were used as bayonet targets.

• 1:29:44Jocko Willink?

  We had to watch this as part of our training. This was a shock to me and for two or three days, food would not pass through my throat.

• 1:29:54Jocko Willink?

  But two years later, I became an officer in charge of a platoon and with about 25 men under me.

• 1:30:02Jocko Willink?

  Later I became a company commander with 151 men. And that meant that if I didn't build a strong platoon and a strong company, I would fall behind. And so I too tested the courage of the soldiers under me by using Chinese prisoners.

• 1:30:21Jocko Willink?

  This was normal training in the Japanese army.

• 1:30:26Jocko Willink?

  When we were not involved in major operations,

• 1:30:32Jocko Willink?

  we would go out into our own immediate area on continuous three-day operations to see if there were any enemy around. On such occasions, we stole, tortured, and slaughtered people.

• 1:30:46Jocko Willink?

  The Chinese had a saying about us, that Japan had a three-way complete policy. Burned completely, killed completely, and pillaged completely.

• 1:30:57Jocko Willink?

  Yet when we were doing those things, we had no sense of guilt or of doing anything wrong.

• 1:31:06Jocko Willink?

  It was for the emperor.

• 1:31:10Jocko Willink?

  For the country.

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  So that's how they're raised, and that's how you can end up with someone like Ishii that goes through all that and still remains loyal, even after defeat, still remains loyal to the deposed emperor.

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  And here's an army doctor

• 1:31:37Jocko Willink?

  named Yuasa Ken. "This is not easy for me to speak about, but it is something I must confess.

• 1:31:47Jocko Willink?

  What I did was wrong.

• 1:31:51Jocko Willink?

  It is also true that it was forced on me by the government, but that does not reduce the size of my crime.

• 1:32:00Jocko Willink?

  It is something that happened a long time ago, but those who are not taught about the war are ill-educated.

• 1:32:09Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese Army went to plunder and steal materials and to kill.

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  Japan wanted iron, coal, and provisions, and the army drove into the mountains to prosecute the war.

• 1:32:25Jocko Willink?

  At the time, the Japanese used derogatory terms for the Chinese, like Chinaman and chink, and looked at them with contempt. When I was a child, we were told to despise the Chinese, despise the Koreans. It's all right to conquer them. We have become elite and should join with the Americans and British and conquer Asia. I hated war and killing, but around middle school and into college, I began to think that such ideas were unavoidable.

• 1:32:59Jocko Willink?

  People were driven into a life in which human qualities were lost.

• 1:33:06Jocko Willink?

  The soldier's outlet for frustrations was the brothel of the comfort women. Any means was resorted to in order to raise one's rank and keep up the authority of the country."

• 1:33:20Jocko Willink?

  And in the army hospital,

• 1:33:23Jocko Willink?

  we practiced vivisection.

• 1:33:26Jocko Willink?

  Living persons are good for the scalpel practice, so people were brought in.

• 1:33:33Jocko Willink?

  One day soon after I started at the assignment, the hospital head told us, "Today we will have surgery practice." I was startled. It was an order. There was no getting out of it. Normally, we dissected people who had died of such diseases as typhoid fever, dysentery, and tuberculosis. Now, we were being taken to the dissection room for a different type of exercise. Soldiers came along as observers.

• 1:34:02Jocko Willink?

  Everything started with a signal from the hospital head. One Chinese had big thighs and walked slowly and calmly. He laid down and had no sign of fear, no stress on his face. He was composed.

• 1:34:16Jocko Willink?

  Someone else used him for surgery practice. I went over and pushed the other one onto the operating table.

• 1:34:24Jocko Willink?

  I had no feeling of apology or of doing anything bad.

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  The farmer was resigned to his fate, and he lowered his head and walked forward.

• 1:34:36Jocko Willink?

  I didn't want to get my clothes dirty from him. I wanted to look sharp.

• 1:34:43Jocko Willink?

  He went down as far as the operating table but didn't want to lie down.

• 1:34:48Jocko Willink?

  A nurse, using broken Chinese, told him, "We're using ether. It won't hurt, so lie down."

• 1:34:56Jocko Willink?

  She gave me a wry smile when she said that.

• 1:35:01Jocko Willink?

  She had been working there for a long time, and when I happened to meet her again much later and asked her about it, she didn't remember. She was handling so many vivisections, it was routine.

• 1:35:15Jocko Willink?

  People who repeat evil acts do not remember them. There is no sense of wrongdoing.

• 1:35:23Jocko Willink?

  War means this also. War is not just shooting. In order for Japan to win, all the Chinese were made prisoners. Women's bellies were cut open, homes were burned. If you couldn't do this, then you weren't a loyal soldier of the emperor.

• 1:35:42Jocko Willink?

  Even if one despises an act, one must bear it.

• 1:35:49Jocko Willink?

  From there, a person becomes accustomed to it. We all received practice. It was normal to smile at this. The crimes committed during our aggressive wars are forgotten, gone from memory. At the time, they were considered right.

• 1:36:10Jocko Willink?

  So the surgery began. The man was given ether and dissected. His appendix was so small that it was like looking for a burrowing worm. I had to cut and search repeatedly. The blood flow was stopped, nerves were cut, bones were cut with a saw, and a tracheotomy was performed.

• 1:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Blood and air escaped from his body, the blood came foaming up. Practice time was two hours.

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  The man died, and his body was thrown into a hole and buried.

• 1:36:47Jocko Willink?

  That was my first crime.

• 1:36:52Jocko Willink?

  After that, it was easy.

• 1:36:57Jocko Willink?

  Eventually, I dissected fourteen Chinese.

• 1:37:03Jocko Willink?

  I also saw vivisections. Once I saw about forty doctors gathered. There was a man bound and squatting. The guard asked the doctors, "Are you ready?" And the prisoner was laid out without anesthetic. Two cuts were made down his belly. The victim made a few gasps. The dissection was a botch, and he died soon. I saw four people dissected that way.

• 1:37:33Jocko Willink?

  It is said that there are, that there were twenty million victims of the war in China. But only ten to twenty percent of these were killed in gunfire exchange. Most, non-resisting old people, women and children, were captured and slaughtered.

• 1:37:53Jocko Willink?

  Prisoners of war could not be taken to the front or allowed to escape, so they were killed in the manner of the Rape of Nanking.

• 1:38:05Jocko Willink?

  Those who were a part of it do not come forward to tell the people how it was. Why? Because the Japanese have forgotten all about it.

• 1:38:19Jocko Willink?

  Everybody's forgotten. They did things and got medals and they don't think they did anything worse than kicking a dog.

• 1:38:31Jocko Willink?

  They weren't bothered. Because they never considered it a dreadful thing to take a scalpel and cut open a living person.

• 1:38:48Jocko Willink?

  And this will be the last

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  piece of testimony that I read.

• 1:38:57Jocko Willink?

  And this was a soldier that was attached to Unit 731.

• 1:39:04Jocko Willink?

  Named Ohara Takayoshi.

• 1:39:10Jocko Willink?

  And he said, "I joined the cavalry from my home in 1939. In April of that year, I was stationed in northeast China. Then in March 1942, I was transferred to Unit 731.

• 1:39:26Jocko Willink?

  I did not know anything about that unit.

• 1:39:30Jocko Willink?

  My first duty was taking care of domesticated animals. Such as sheep, goats, horses, and cows.

• 1:39:40Jocko Willink?

  I assisted in researching the diseases that affect these animals.

• 1:39:47Jocko Willink?

  I saw tests in which maruta were tied to crosses in a large circle. As planes flew over. And dropped bacteriological bombs in the area surrounded by the crosses. Their legs were chained and their bodies tied tightly.

• 1:40:07Jocko Willink?

  We observed the tests from a distance of about 200 meters.

• 1:40:13Jocko Willink?

  I had the job of cleaning up and disinfecting after the experiments and gathering debris lying around.

• 1:40:24Jocko Willink?

  I want people who come to this exhibition to tell their children and grandchildren that there is nothing more stupid and fearful than war.

• 1:40:42Jocko Willink?

  I want people to tell their children and grandchildren that there is nothing more stupid and more fearful than war. Nothing more stupid and fearful than war.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's a good quote to end this, except for it is wrong.

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  It is wrong, because as stupid and as fearful and as reprehensible as war is, there is something worse than war.

• 1:41:26Jocko Willink?

  And that is allowing this kind of evil to exist.

• 1:41:37Jocko Willink?

  As bad as war is, and war is awful, war is hell, and I have said that over and over again, as have many others. But there are worse things than war. Things like Unit 731.

• 1:41:55Jocko Willink?

  Things like the Nazi concentration camps. Things like the rape of N. King.

• 1:42:03Jocko Willink?

  There are things that are worse than war, and there are times when war is not only justified, but it is a moral obligation.

• 1:42:15Jocko Willink?

  And I do not say that lightly.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  But when evil and when darkness and when malevolent and demonic spirits rise to power, they must be stopped.

• 1:42:39Jocko Willink?

  And the responsibility for that lies within all of us every day to do our best.

• 1:42:51Jocko Willink?

  To do our best to move the world away from the darkness and the demons that linger inside men's minds.

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  And move the world toward the light.

• 1:43:15Jocko Willink?

  And toward what is good.

• 1:43:26Jocko Willink?

  And I think that is all I have got for tonight. So Echo Charles.

• 1:43:39Jocko Willink?

  I think while I decompress a little bit, if you could talk about ways for the crew here to move towards the light. Mm hmm. I'm gonna try. I know, I know. And if you think about originally,

• 1:43:58Jocko Willink?

  when we started getting into these kind of podcasts that

• 1:44:03Jocko Willink?

  touched upon some very heavy, some very disturbing subject matter, that was, that was where the whole sort of, let's call it extended closing to the show began. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, could just, and, and I remember.

• 1:44:26Jocko Willink?

  Like, I remember like the first time I said to you like, hey, man, you just talk for a little while. I need a break over here.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Jocko Willink?

  That's how we ended up with this, this thing.

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:35Jocko Willink?

  But then, the interesting thing, people would say, hey, thanks for doing that.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:39Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're not the only one that needs to decompress after you hear this freaking crap.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:43Jocko Willink?

  After you hear about this just heinous evil.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:47Jocko Willink?

  That really happened.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:50Jocko Willink?

  We need a little break. We need a little Echo Charles here.

• 1:44:55Jocko Willink?

  To, you know.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's rough where you, you know, you go from vivisection, you know, and then what if you were like, hey, alright, that's all I got for tonight.

• 1:45:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, can't leave you like that.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, then you kind of, alright, you turn it off, you go into, I don't know, work, or whatever, whenever you listen to it, go to bed.

• 1:45:16Jocko Willink?

  No, that's, that came out with, um, with 121, 122, and 123 with Louis Pollard, and with Chesty Pollard, Louis Pollard, and then Jake Schick. I wasn't gonna do, I could, I, I, I, I said to myself, I can't do 121 and 122, and just leave 122 out there in the world by itself. I needed Jake Schick, my brother, to come on and like, show that you can get through that.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:40Jocko Willink?

  You know? And so this is kind of the same thing, you know, I just can't like walk off.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, mic drop, and then boom, yeah, hey, you guys deal with it now.

• 1:45:51Jocko Willink?

  No, we're gonna deal with it together, that's what, we're gonna have Echo Charles help us deal with that.

• 1:45:55Speaker 01

  It'll all come back, little bit, little bit.

• 1:45:57Jocko Willink?

  Little bit, try to.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  You kind of can't forget, I mean, it's, you're not gonna forget that, you know, and it was just like, you can't forget Machetes, and you can't forget the Great Panem King, all these other things, so you're gonna remember, but.

• 1:46:08Jocko Willink?

  Can't forget the Mila massacre.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:09Jocko Willink?

  The harsh, I mean, just, it's, it's, it's crazy.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. But yeah, man, oh, far be it from our intention to leave you with bad feelings that last.

• 1:46:27Jocko Willink?

  We want, I've said this before, right? We want you to remember, but not dwell.

• 1:46:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Right? I think that's important.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:46:36Jocko Willink?

  You know, you're dealing with loss. I mean, I talk about that a lot when you're dealing with loss.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:40Jocko Willink?

  You always want to remember the people you've lost, but you can't dwell on it.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:46Jocko Willink?

  And you always want to remember the rape and nan king. You always want to remember machete season. You always want to remember unit 731. You always want to remember man's search for meaning. You always want to remember me lie massacre. You want to remember those things. Cause they're real and they happen and they can happen again if we let them.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:04Jocko Willink?

  We can't dwell on them.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:06Jocko Willink?

  Cause there's, there's, cause you know what? We won. Good won and good will win.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm thinking.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. You know how, okay, there is this movie called something about a centipede. A human centipede, maybe? You ever heard of that?

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  Literally no possible way I've seen this movie.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Bro, yeah, you're right. I, I, I've never seen it. I've never seen it. I've seen the, the, the, you know.

• 1:47:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, is it just like completely like psycho sick disturbing?

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, some weirdo scientist guy. So. You know, I can't help but kind of think, it's when you said, this isn't a movie. This is, this really happened. And that's really the hard part when you really start to think about that. Like, just like how we're sitting here right now.

• 1:47:50Jocko Willink?

  What's really, what's really hard is, you know, you, you picture the mother in a gas chamber with her baby. And you, you can't just picture a mother. You can't just picture a child. You have to like picture a mother and a child that you know. You need to put that in, you need to picture someone that you, cause you can't, you can't make that connection by, be saying a mother and a child. That, that doesn't, that doesn't bring it together for you. You actually have to picture someone you know. And their kid being for, that's what you need to picture, being forced. Cause that's what those people were. They were people.

• 1:48:29Jocko Willink?

  They were people were alive and they had hopes and dreams and all those things. And they got put into a gas chamber to see how long they could last without a gas mask. That's what you have to picture.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it, it makes the point for sure. Well, oh, here's a moral question.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  Okay, you know how like some of these um doctors and uh scientists, they went on to be prosperous?

• 1:48:54Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  You know af- you know, after the the deal? And they obviously, I mean, apparently, some of them did some really good work where they're getting like awards and whatnot.

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Speaking of this, I was thinking about this. Cause another really dark book that we covered on here was Ordinary Men. Which Ordinary Men talked about the the police, the Nazi police that went from being normal guys that were middle-aged, hadn't been indoctrinated in the Nazi way of life.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:22Jocko Willink?

  As children, they got kinda like swept along with the rest of the Germans. And they ended up committing these heinous acts and and murdering thousands and thousands of of Jews. But what's interesting about that, so in that story, it's normal guys going evil. In this story, these evil guys that did evil things, they come out the other side and kinda like go normal. And then they, it's just.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  So did they, didn't they get kinda, they got forced into it though, right? Remember? They were like, hey, hey, you gotta do this or you die.

• 1:49:55Jocko Willink?

  They did get, well, not really. If you remember in in Ordinary Men, their commander, actually in the beginning, is like, hey, if you wanna, if you don't wanna do this, go home.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Right, no, no, I mean, the the Japanese guys from seventy-one, remember?

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  There's definitely some guys getting forced into it.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you, here, so here's the moral question, it's like, okay, of cour- you know, these guys committed crimes regardless of of, you know, the the surrounding circumstances, they committed these crimes, it's factual. And then they kinda get away and then they get into normal society and they and they don't get punished. Right? Perceived, like, no justice, right?

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  No justice.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  But, so here's the moral question, so duh, is it, did they make up uh even a little bit for their crime by doing good in the future?

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Even though they didn't get punished, like, did they make up for it? Or is it more of a crime because they got to do good stuff? They got to get awards and they got to be prosperous in the universe. Yeah, and they shouldn't have.

• 1:50:55Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? If you look at it from the perspective of like, hey, let's look at them hol- so there's there's two ways I'm gonna I'm gonna stage this for you. Look at it holistically from like, okay, here's this person. Let's look at it from my, from Jaco's perspective. Here's this person, they did these horrible things, but now they've kind of got back on track and they've put their life together and and that's that's a positive thing and they've, even if you can't make up for that whole crime, at least you're chipping away at some of the horrible things you did and replacing them with something good. And and you can see where people come to the conclusion that like, well, okay, I can kind of see how that makes sense. That's one way of looking at it.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  For others too, by the way, not just in this, I mean, it's easy to be like, hey, he got to do all this stuff, but if they're doing good work scientifically and for, you know, medical schools and stuff like this is obviously, they're teaching people, they're probably, you know, making breakthroughs and and, you know, discoveries in the field and stuff that's gonna help people in general, you know?

• 1:51:53Jocko Willink?

  Now, here's the other way I'm gonna frame it for you. Is from the eyes of that mother who's in that gas chamber, who's watching that switch get turned and she knows it's gonna kill her and her child. And there's no, there's no redemption. Zero.

• 1:52:14Jocko Willink?

  Check. Good job trying to lighten up the mood over here, bro.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro, you will. Hey, man, you know? All right, well, hey.

• 1:52:23Jocko Willink?

  Let's talk some support.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Some support. We can support ourselves.

• 1:52:26Jocko Willink?

  We're dwelling, we're dwelling, we're breaking our, we're breaking our, our own code here. We're dwelling.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  The code. Yes. All right, well, let's talk about Origin. I feel like we should talk about Origin. And the first thing about Origin that I will talk about is the geese, the flagship product. Geese, all made in America, by the way, rash guards as well. This is for jujitsu, by the way, specifically, but not limited to. So, well, the geese are kind of limited to, unless you wanna make a dragon weave suit, like, you're the one who recommended this, by the way.

• 1:52:59Jocko Willink?

  You could do judo in a, in a...

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I guess technically you could do karate too, if you want. Technically, I mean, but they're made for jujitsu. The rash guards made for jujitsu. But you can use them for like cycling and body boarding and whatnot.

• 1:53:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  Anything that you wanna protect yourself from rashes. Not ep- not germ rashes, like rash rashes. Actually, it does have antimicrobial stuff in it too.

• 1:53:25Jocko Willink?

  It's true.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  So it is kinda protected from that. Anyway, originmaine.com, that's where you can get this stuff, all made in America. And also joggers.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  Coming from the connoisseur of comfort himself, that's me.

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  People are starting to comment about that.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  You're now becoming known.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:45Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you could parlay that into like a whole thing.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a whole thing.

• 1:53:49Jocko Willink?

  A whole thing.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:50Jocko Willink?

  You could just have your own thing going on.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  Nah, nah.

• 1:53:52Jocko Willink?

  Testing things for comfort levels.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll establish a standard of comfort. It'll be called the Connoisseur of Comfort Scale. See what I'm saying?

• 1:54:00Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  You know how like in temperature, there's like Kelvin?

• 1:54:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  Celsius Fahrenheit?

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  I'll be that for comfort.

• 1:54:06Jocko Willink?

  The ECHO Scale.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:08Jocko Willink?

  ECHO Scale of Comfort. What would the highest level of comfort be? Would it just be one to 10?

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  It would, no, it'd be, uh, OJ. OJ would be the highest.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  What's that mean?

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Ranking, OJ. Origin Joggers.

• 1:54:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, dang, look at that.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  Bro, I'm over here, I'm like, I'm getting, Pete, for some reason, he's the kind of guy I like to just call. You know how you, like, you'll text someone, you know?

• 1:54:31Jocko Willink?

  Not really.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Hey, I wanna, you don't really, but nowadays, we like to text people.

• 1:54:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna bother them, I'm not gonna, you know, but I don't know, for some reason, I like to call Pete. So I'll call him and I'll be like, hey, when's the shorts coming out? Not for so, ooh, we can, you know, because I wanna wear them, you know, that kinda stuff. Anyway, so I'm about to call him and be like, hey, we need more colors of joggers or whatever. But here's the thing, Dewey, I need more colors. So I can't just be running Pete around his factory, making new colors just for me personally. Or maybe I can, I don't know. But it would help, but yeah, they're real good joggers, uh, t-shirts and hoodies and whatnot, good stuff.

• 1:55:10Jocko Willink?

  Made in America.

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  Made in America.

• 1:55:12Jocko Willink?

  Made in America.

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:13Jocko Willink?

  Which is good, on a whole bunch of different levels. Also, we got a bunch of supplements, we got joint warfare, we got krill oil, we got discipline, which is...

• 1:55:26Jocko Willink?

  Good to drink before you get after it mentally or physically. And also, we got milk.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, but back to joint warfare. Okay, so let me get, I know you you're wondering how my arm is doing. I know, I know, man. I'll let you know. So I went to Oregon, the Oregon coast last week, one week. Forgot the joint warfare. I just had surgery on my bicep about six, yeah, six weeks ago. And, you know.

• 1:55:58Jocko Willink?

  I would have FedExed you some, bro.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  I know, I know. But, uh, yeah, and thank you, but you know, I didn't.

• 1:56:03Jocko Willink?

  How long did it take before you noticed it? Cause I'm I'm guessing the moral of the story is this didn't work out.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so and here's the thing, my surgeon is good. He was good. He did a good job on my arm. Reattached my bicep tendon to my bone, drilled a hole in the bone. Boom, stick it through, sew it up, gush, gush, gush, all done.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  So I take joint warfare, the thing feels good, like I'm way ahead of schedule, you know, surprisingly, because I had it done on my other arm nine years ago, blah, blah, blah. So it's all good. I'm moving around, doing like pushups, doing stuff that no way I could I could have done with with my other arm last time. So I go to Oregon coast, forget the joint warfare. I attribute it to the joint warfare, how how far ahead I am. So I forget the joint warfare. I'm in the Oregon coast, I would say about two days. And here's the thing, it didn't start like hurting or going backwards or nothing like that, but it was just this weird stiffness. That sort of just like I couldn't straighten it out right away when I wake up, you know, I can't like, you know, I kind of got to work it out. And it slowly just started to just stiffen up a little more. And here's the thing, I was way less active on it too.

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  Where, because when I do like pushups and stuff where I'm using my elbow a lot, um, it'd be kind of stiff that night, you know, then the next day you loosen up and then it's stronger. You know, it's just one of those things like muscles, but it's my joint.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  So I wasn't doing that that much activity and it was just general stiffness. Yeah, bro. I was like, well, it, I don't want to say it felt inflamed, but it felt like, you know. You know how like you sprain your thumb or something like that and it's like swollen and it's like just jammed up? You can use it, but anyway, it kind of felt like that.

• 1:57:38Jocko Willink?

  Functional but not optimal.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  Functional but not optimal. And then I come back, two days back on the joint warfare, boom, back in the game. Full on back in the game.

• 1:57:49Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty cool, isn't it?

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  It's for a hell of a thing, man. Good stuff. Kandorit and curcumin, good for your brain too, by the way.

• 1:57:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Just like discipline.

• 1:57:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Also Molk, as you were saying, what up with Molk?

• 1:58:01Jocko Willink?

  Well, first of all, Molk's awesome. Second of all, what is Molk? It's Molk. Everyone knows that now. I think that's pretty much gonna be the new thing. And we have peanut butter, chocolate will be coming out. I want to say within a week. I want to say within a week.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  You're all like, we have peanut butter and Chuck. We have peanut butter and chocolate coming in about a week, maybe.

• 1:58:26Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, it's not even a maybe.

• 1:58:28Speaker 01

  Oh, straight up. One week, counting down the days. Okay, that's good. So Molk, protein, how many, how much, how many grams of protein in Molk, do you know?

• 1:58:35Jocko Willink?

  Twenty-two per scoop.

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  So, and I heard this, I recently read, actually I didn't read it, I saw it on a video, YouTube video. I know that sounds like a YouTube video, but I think this one had credibility. So.

• 1:58:47Jocko Willink?

  Based on what?

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  You know, so you need, not need, but a good amount of protein is.

• 1:58:54Jocko Willink?

  One gram per?

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  They thought it was like one point five, you were trying to build muscle and all this stuff.

• 1:58:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's changed.

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  It's about, yeah, it's way less.

• 1:59:00Jocko Willink?

  According to this YouTube video.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  According to this, it's like point seven or something like this.

• 1:59:05Jocko Willink?

  That's for who?

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:59:07Jocko Willink?

  I need more than that. I'm gonna tell you right now.

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  Well, there you go, Molk. Get it. And it tastes good, real good, by the way.

• 1:59:13Jocko Willink?

  It's dessert.

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, anyway.

• 1:59:16Jocko Willink?

  Is Molk classified as a dessert? That's the question.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  To me, currently it is.

• 1:59:19Jocko Willink?

  It's currently, that's how I classify it too.

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  It would have to be proven out.

• 1:59:23Jocko Willink?

  I literally eat my dinner and then I'm all excited to have Molk.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  It is a dessert.

• 1:59:30Jocko Willink?

  And what I went on a trip and I haven't figured out how to travel with milk yet, which is a real bummer. But you know, it's it's scoop. You can't bring six scoops and I'm real light traveler. Yeah. And so now when I go somewhere and I get whatever, I'll get a good meal. I'll get a legit meal, but I want a dessert.

• 1:59:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:47Jocko Willink?

  I want milk.

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  This is how you do it. You put it in a Ziploc bag.

• 1:59:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, puff.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Not in your, not in your carry on, by the way.

• 1:59:56Jocko Willink?

  Then you gotta bring a shaker.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:59Jocko Willink?

  Right? There's just multiple problems that I have. I've got to figure it out. I'll figure out a system.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  Figure it out.

• 2:00:03Jocko Willink?

  One thing I can say is too is when I, when I have always, if I drank protein shakes in the past, I would have to use a big shaker. Um, and put a lot, put probably 16 ounces of milk.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right.

• 2:00:18Jocko Willink?

  Whatever. One thing that's good about milk and because that's the only way you feel satisfied with milk, you can use one of the small little shakers. So this is a possibility. See, I'm creating ideas right now. I can bring one of the small shakers, bring a little bit of milk in it and then just hit it up. It will be good.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause you don't need a big giant shaker because you don't need to drink that much milk to feel like.

• 2:00:36Speaker 01

  Like, like you got enough dessert.

• 2:00:39Jocko Willink?

  Like you got enough dessert. Yeah.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  Anyway, back to the deal. Uh, immersion camp?

• 2:00:46Jocko Willink?

  Yep. When is that? It's coming.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  August 26th.

• 2:00:48Jocko Willink?

  August 26th through September 2nd. This is weird, but we might, it looks like we might actually sell out. Like at a certain point.

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  How do you sell out of the camp?

• 2:00:59Jocko Willink?

  They didn't think we'd be, but we, so if you want to come, get registered because we're probably going to end up. Cause you can, we, we have, we, we already bought more mats, double the mats that we had to muster.

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 2:01:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a lot of mats, but still.

• 2:01:14Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 2:01:14Jocko Willink?

  I mean, there's still a limit. So if you want to come to that, come, uh, I'll be there. Echo will be there. Dave Burke will be there. Leif Babin will be there. JP's on the fence. Dean Lister. Dean Listy will be there.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah. And that's good. Where, you know, when you learn stuff at the, I mean, there's, there, you know, there's there, you're going to learn specific things from specific people and all that stuff, but. Don't look at it like this thing where you're gonna go and you're just gonna learn what they have to teach you. You know, they're gonna teach you Spider Guard or something like this.

• 2:01:50Jocko Willink?

  There's like fifteen or twenty black belts there.

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Yes. So on top of that.

• 2:01:55Jocko Willink?

  If you made it your goal, if you went and you went and you said, went to each one of those fifteen black belts and said, "Show me your move, your best move."

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:03Jocko Willink?

  If you did that and you walked away, that would be, that would be solid.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:08Jocko Willink?

  And but you, you couldn't, this isn't a, this isn't a, "Hey, show me your move and you spend three minutes." No, I'm talking if you, if you spent like an hour, maybe even hour and a half going over, "What's your best move?" Like, I bet I could teach certain moves for an hour and a half.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:28Jocko Willink?

  And just show every little detail. If you came to the immersion camp and that's what you did, you'd be rocking out of there.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  It'd be solid. It'd be, it'd be rough if everyone did that because, you know.

• 2:02:38Jocko Willink?

  No, it'd be hard. Yeah. I don't think you could, I don't think you could logistically do it.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  But I will say this, that on top of what all the instructors there, and not to mention just other experienced people, what they have to offer and teach you, you can come and be like, "Hey, my rear naked choke needs work."

• 2:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, oh yeah.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  "This is how I do it. Hey, Jocko, come here. This is how I do it." This is all day, by the way, you have this opportunity. This is how I do it and show.

• 2:03:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's, that's one thing that you could do because you can't just literally train the entire time, but you can get shown moves and you can work moves.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:15Jocko Willink?

  You can't just train because you'll die.

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  Well, yes, you'll, you'll die for sure, but if, but the point is there though, where you can come, and you can come to immersion camp, right? And it's good, again, to learn from, from everything that everyone has to teach, but you can go in with specific like questions with your game where you're still like, "Oh, how am I gonna get better?" Of course, my Jesus is gonna get better in general. That's good, of course.

• 2:03:39Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  But if it's like, "Wait, will my mount escape?"

• 2:03:43Jocko Willink?

  If you, if you want your mount escape to get better and that's what you focus on and you can ask, actually, well, I'll give you this advice. If you have trouble being mounted and escaping the mount, a good person to ask about that is actually Echo Charles. You have a very good mount escape.

• 2:03:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. Very teachable too.

• 2:03:59Jocko Willink?

  That's one of your best moves is the mount escape. I will say that right now, authoritatively.

• 2:04:05Speaker 01

  Right on.

• 2:04:05Jocko Willink?

  Got a good mount escape.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Thanks, bro. Also, shifting gears. So yeah, anyway, immersion camp, August 26th to September 2nd.

• 2:04:15Jocko Willink?

  Originmain.com for all that crap that we just talked about.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, Originmain.com, exactly right. Maine like the state, M-A-I-N-E.

• 2:04:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:23Speaker 01

  Originmain.com. Also, if you want to get these cool shirts that say, "Discipline equals freedom", Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco Store. So go to Jacostore.com. Anyway, that's where you can get the shirts that say, "Discipline equals freedom, get after it." Anyway, if you want to represent with Jaco gear, it's more the philosophy. It's not Jaco gear. It doesn't really have your face on it or nothing. Oh, wait, yes, it does have your face on it. And it says, "Good, one of them." Maybe two, one, two. I don't know. Anyway, go there, Jacostore.com. If you like something, get something. You want to represent in your town?

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  Also, rash guards on there. Hoodies on there.

• 2:05:07Jocko Willink?

  T-shirts, rash guards, truckers hats. You like the flex fit.

• 2:05:11Speaker 01

  Flex fit, I like them.

• 2:05:12Jocko Willink?

  You don't even wear hats, which is weird because you're bald.

• 2:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, my head got to get a tan. But actually, I went in phases not to go too deep.

• 2:05:21Jocko Willink?

  You said you were going to get me much more of these truckers hats, and you did not.

• 2:05:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, wait, which one? Discipline equals freedom?

• 2:05:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, or Defqor.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Defqor, yeah. They're on the way. They're being embroidered right now.

• 2:05:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:05:32Speaker 01

  Actually, I added like a bonus color of the...

• 2:05:37Jocko Willink?

  I don't support bonus colors.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  A bonus color? No, but it's like a khaki, like a brown, like a tan. It's pretty dope.

• 2:05:44Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles going tactical.

• 2:05:47Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 2:05:48Speaker 01

  Anyway, Jacostore.com, a lot of good stuff. Jiu-Jitsu stuff on there, women's stuff on there. Hats and beanies, whatnot. Some posters on there, too, by the way.

• 2:05:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, posters. No, I didn't. You told me about it today.

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, because a lot of people, and I mean for real, a lot of people, like a lot, a lot of people.

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Is that like seven? What are the posters of?

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Discipline equals freedom and the good poster. Those are the ones that people would hit me up often, very often. Be like, hey, my gym, I want a poster. I want a poster for my room. I want a poster for my office. You know, 24 by 36 posters. There's two posters on there. I'll make other, other ones, but yeah. Got some posters on there. Boom, represent in your gym, in your office, in your home. I got one in my home first thing when you walk in. It's interesting.

• 2:06:28Jocko Willink?

  A poster of our podcast?

• 2:06:30Speaker 01

  The good poster.

• 2:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so your face is kind of sort of there, you know, representing in my house. Thanks, Jaco, by the way. Also, good way to support the podcast is to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and Google Play, Stitcher, wherever you listen to, to podcasts. Interesting, oh, there's so many of them out there now.

• 2:06:49Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of podcasts.

• 2:06:51Speaker 01

  Nope, platforms, sorry. Yeah, there's a lot of podcasts for sure.

• 2:06:54Jocko Willink?

  And there's a lot of podcast platforms.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:06:56Jocko Willink?

  It's the new media.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  It's the new media.

• 2:06:58Jocko Willink?

  It's the new media.

• 2:06:58Speaker 01

  It's voice, as they say.

• 2:06:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it is voice. It is voice. Uh, also, in addition to this podcast, which is called the Jocko Podcast, there's also the Warrior Kid Podcast, which is for kids, but I promise you can get a lot out of it as an adult, too. Cool thing I've been doing on that. I've done it twice. I'm gonna do it more, but... So it's questions for Uncle Jake is the basic premises, premise of it. But now I have stories from Uncle Jake. And the stories from Uncle Jake are actually from Uncle Jake's childhood. And they kind of teach a lesson to people.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:38Jocko Willink?

  So that's number, podcast number 14 and 15 are the first two that I've started doing stories from Uncle Jake. So I think people will like those.

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're a little bit of... Yeah, they're good. Some, so there's kind of like character development sprinkled in there with the lesson. To me, the lesson, well, I don't know, maybe this is intentional, but the lesson is the primary thing.

• 2:08:02Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  And it's, it's deep same, very, uh, consistent with the whole Uncle Jake way, simple lessons.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  The idea is I'm explaining how Uncle Jake got his values

• 2:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:18Jocko Willink?

  from experiences that he went through as a child.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:21Jocko Willink?

  And their, their stories are five minutes, eight minutes, something like that. They're, they're, they're pretty short stories, but they're cool. And they're enjoyable. So Warrior Kid Podcast, you can check that one out. It's...

• 2:08:36Jocko Willink?

  It's good. And if kids, if your kids have questions for Uncle Jake, just hit me up on Twitter.

• 2:08:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:41Jocko Willink?

  Send them to Twitter and I'll capture them.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Yep. Good one. Also YouTube, subscribe to the YouTube channel. We do have a YouTube channel if you're interested in the video version of this podcast.

• 2:08:53Jocko Willink?

  Or if you want to see Echo's editing skills.

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:08:57Jocko Willink?

  Some people say you went over the top.

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  Sure, I'll go over the top sometimes.

• 2:09:01Jocko Willink?

  You, there's a video called Warpath. It's, it's probably the most controversial video from my perspective because it was originally made with Christmas music, which I don't like Christmas music. And Echo made it with Christmas music and he put a lot of time and effort into it.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  On Christmas, by the way.

• 2:09:14Jocko Willink?

  So if we want to talk leadership here, like from my perspective, I knew you've been working really hard on this thing and then you showed it to me and then the Christmas music kicked in, which I didn't like, didn't match. But you know, I just had to be like, hey, man, it's great. I really appreciate it. You know, it's a great video. So I lied to you. Is that a lie?

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  You didn't say great. Uh, no, you did not lie.

• 2:09:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  You said, and I quote, "Interesting choice of music for this one." That's what you said.

• 2:09:43Jocko Willink?

  Now, I also will say that I don't a hundred percent trust myself. Like I think to myself, well, Echo really liked Christmas music, so he put it in there. So that's fine. If that, maybe some other people will like it too. And that's, I'm not here to like dictate what people like and don't like. I'm just here to tell you what I like and don't like.

• 2:10:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:10:01Jocko Willink?

  But then you, but then you redid the video with, with more appropriate music.

• 2:10:06Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:10:07Jocko Willink?

  Which is good.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:10:08Jocko Willink?

  But, but then some people said, "You, you got crazy. You went too far with it." You went too far. You had too much stuff exploding. You got too much stuff going on.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  There's the same amount of explosions and crackling.

• 2:10:20Jocko Willink?

  What I'm saying, I never really paid too much attention to what people said because I couldn't even get past the music.

• 2:10:24Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 2:10:24Jocko Willink?

  Once I got past the music and I checked the YouTube comments.

• 2:10:29Jocko Willink?

  Which I know, right?

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know.

• 2:10:31Jocko Willink?

  I went there and people, some people, the majority of people, said, amazing, right? The major, some people just threw it out there. Hey, take it easy, bro.

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:43Jocko Willink?

  You can't make, you can't, you, you crossed the line, right?

• 2:10:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:10:46Jocko Willink?

  You went over the line. I, I think you were around the line.

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:51Jocko Willink?

  I think you might have, you know.

• 2:10:53Speaker 01

  Stepped the toe over.

• 2:10:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a little bit. But, but, we have to find out where the line is, right?

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  And I think you did a good job of pressing up against line without just getting too.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  Well, let me, uh, let me tell you the philosophy and tell me if this is a good way to approach it. So, a lot of those videos, okay, so, consider the first one we did. Good, right?

• 2:11:14Jocko Willink?

  Is that the first one you did?

• 2:11:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:16Jocko Willink?

  Good job out of the gate.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  I think I might have told the, the, the story, like, there's a story behind it. But we were recording podcast, it was like number three or five. One of the first initial ones. And I was like, oh, my camera was sitting over there, behind, kind of behind over in the, in the corner.

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  And if you notice on good when it shows you, you can see like, it's behind like a monitor and so you can see this stuff. I just went and pressed, I kind of moved the camera a little bit. And I just pressed record before you said that, that part. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna record this just in case I'll make, I'll make a video out of it or something. You're like, okay, whatever. And if you look at, I watched it the other day, where like Joe Rogan guys were talking about it. So I was like, oh, let me watch it, you know? And I remember thinking, and you're like reading, and when you're looking up, like, you're looking at me. And I remember you, you, uh, saying this stuff to me. And I'm like, fuck, this is crazy as crap. I'm glad I'm recording it, right? But that wasn't made, it wasn't like, okay, we're gonna do this, we're gonna record this, and we're gonna do that. You know, it was just like, oh, I'm gonna try to make a fun video out of it.

• 2:12:19Speaker 01

  And then just put some random, like, graphics on there that I was just having fun doing. So these videos you do, they're kind of done out of just fun, you know? And every, and every once in a while, hey, man, you have too much fun. You grab some sound effects, you make the walls crumble, you do kind of stuff, you know? You have some fun with it. I mean, there's no, I guess there is kind of, they're thematic, I guess, right? There's some theme to it, like Warpath.

• 2:12:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's kind of, for me, it's like, it's, it's pretty awesome to watch.

• 2:12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just.

• 2:12:50Jocko Willink?

  And I could see where you're like, you, I can see where you start going down the path of like, just more is better.

• 2:12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's really what happens and I'll catch myself doing it and it'll take a long ass and I'm like, "Bro, this is not even necessary." And in fact, and some people, they will bring up this point, which is a good point, where I put stuff crumbling, right, for, okay, Warpath, or take Warpath, for example. I put the walls crumbling and Jocko and Dean rolling and when they clash, like, the walls come shattering down, it's all these special effects, which is like, cool, when you look at, but all the special effects, the sound effects and like, all this stuff, it's like, is it kinda getting in the way of the message? Because the message is like, you're saying something specific, you know? So it's kinda getting in the way, you know?

• 2:13:34Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  So I gotta watch out for that.

• 2:13:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:37Speaker 01

  And I think that's a good point, when people say that, I'm like, "Dang, that's true." And, because you don't know, when you're in the mix, you're like, "Oh, that effect was so cool."

• 2:13:42Jocko Willink?

  Most people were stoked.

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess, but I, yeah, I've gotta watch it.

• 2:13:46Jocko Willink?

  I'm stoked. Hey, there's also a Warrior Kid YouTube channel. Okay, so the reason that we separated the Warrior Kid and the Warrior Kid and the Jocko Podcast channel, channel, blah, blah, blah, is because we know that there's things on this podcast and on the, therefore, on the YouTube channel, Jocko Podcast, there's stuff that's inappropriate for children to listen to or watch.

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:09Jocko Willink?

  And so, this is a way to separate them. So there's also a Warrior Kid YouTube channel that your kid can sit there and watch and, hopefully, I'm not guaranteeing, because I don't know how the algorithms work that pop up the next video selections, but hopefully, your kid can watch the Warrior Kid videos without getting hooked into the Unit 731 testimony about vivisection. So, watch out for that.

• 2:14:33Speaker 01

  Yep. True story. And that one's in color, too, by the way.

• 2:14:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:38Speaker 01

  I see Jocko in color. Uncle Jake, as it were. Well, yeah. Also, a good way to support yourself is to get some new gear. If your workouts are boring, get some new gear from Onnit, by the way. Onnit.com slash Jocko. Good place to go. Good information, too, about starting your kettlebell workout. Browse- And I just thought of this kid yesterday, I was in the pool with my daughter and my wife was saying, you know, you know how like, okay, so you might seem like BJ Penn do this where he'll go on the bottom of the ocean and he'll carry a rock. Yeah, yeah, that's how. So I'm like, hey, you could grab one of those kettlebells.

• 2:15:15Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  And, and my daughter, she's five. So she's like, I was like, yeah, go grab the little, it's like, it's like, it's like a pixie. You know, or I don't know. I don't know what it is, but it's like one of those legend bells. It's a small one that that I got for her. So she grabs it and she goes in the pool. She's like, I'm gonna, I say, yeah, walk to the other side. And it's like deep. It's, she goes kind of into the deep section. So she goes and she's carrying it. She's doing the whole BJ Penn with the little kettlebell. She's five, by the way. Under the water and we're watching it. We're like, oh, that's cute. But she starts to sort of run out of air. And she don't want to drop the kettlebell because it's like gonna slam on the bottom of the pool. And I don't know, maybe she just, she's five. She didn't think of that, you know, kind of thing. So I see her trying to like swim with it, like trying to get to the top and it's kind of deep. And I was like, oh, I started to get worried.

• 2:16:00Speaker 01

  And then she started a little bit more urgency. So I had to jump in, grab her.

• 2:16:04Jocko Willink?

  Echo with the save.

• 2:16:05Speaker 01

  Saved. But she did. Right when I got to her, she put it up on the little, there's a little ledge on the other side of the pool there. She managed to do it just, but just barely. So I went in there.

• 2:16:14Jocko Willink?

  When my middle daughter was probably eight, eight years old. And we had a party at the beach for her birthday or whatever.

• 2:16:27Jocko Willink?

  And so I was dealing with, as long as I could, I was dealing with the games and the whatever. And finally, I'm like, you know what? That's it. We're going, we're going to get some. So we formed the party up into two teams and we're going to compete against each other in obstacle courses and sprints and all this other stuff. And this particular location has a river, gentle flowing tidal river that comes out. And anyways. One of the contests I had was, okay, you sw- we gotta swim across and there's big rocks and stuff and I go, you gotta swim across the river and come back and whoever brings back the biggest rock is the winner. Hmm. So, my middle daughter is to- tough. She's tough and she's strong. She's a wrestler and gymnastics and all that crap.

• 2:17:12Jocko Willink?

  Or not crap, but all that stuff, you know, like she's just, just, um, she's a beast and she's mentally like, um, I don't wanna use the term psycho, but like she's real determined about stuff sometimes. So anyways, this is when she's a little kid, you know? And so, go, go across the river and whoever brings back the biggest rock wins. So she goes, so they all go across and kids are grabbing rocks that are size of, let's say, let's say a softball. Hmm. You know, maybe a softball. What's in between the size of a softball and a soccer ball?

• 2:17:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh.

• 2:17:52Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. Some, so something, okay, loaf of bread, like, like maybe a small loaf of bread. That's the max, right? Yeah. That any of these kids are grabbing. My daughter grabs something that's like the size of a, like a legit watermelon. Like a big, giant, giant, giant rock. A two-hand. Oh, two-hand. Rock. Rock, giant rock, like four or five loaves of bread, just a big, big giant rock. And I'm watching her and I'm thinking, well, she's just gonna sink to the bottom and she'll have to let it go and she'll have to go back and get a smaller one, maybe she can still do okay. So she's come and the river has weird contours on the bottom, you know, you're, you're, you can walk a little while and then it just drops super deep. Right, right. And you just gotta make it. Yeah.

• 2:18:33Jocko Willink?

  So, I'm watching her and she's, she's, it's hard for her to even carry it. And, and she carries, she gets to that deep section, just drops down, goes under.

• 2:18:45Jocko Willink?

  And I'm waiting for her to pop up, but she doesn't pop up. And I'm waiting for her to pop up and she doesn't pop up. And I'm waiting for her to pop up and she doesn't pop up. And then I see like an air bubble come up. And I'm like, oh dang. Yeah. But the air bubble has progressed. So now I'm watching the air bubbles like progress.

• 2:19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:02Jocko Willink?

  They're coming closer to the other side. And and then it starts to come up. And sure enough, out she comes like a like a beast. She's holding the rock and she comes up out of the water. Ah.

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  Power to it.

• 2:19:17Jocko Willink?

  Powered through that and brings the rock up, drops it at my feet. And I'm like, victory is yours.

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's that's actually pretty powerful because, bro, when you're, I mean, unless she was like, depends on her mindset. So her, she was probably like, I'm not gonna let this rock defeat me. I'm gonna bring it to the other side and that's kind of the mindset. I'm not gonna drop it for that reason. I think my daughter was like, I can't drop this thing.

• 2:19:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  So I'm stuck with it, you know, kind of thing. That's what, you know, so she started, you could tell she was a little bit going into panic mode. Yeah, yeah. So it's a whole different scenario technically, but that's pretty savage though. Do you think that I should, because she's probably, she's scared. She even said like later, like, oh, that was like scary and all this stuff. I should probably make her do it again, huh?

• 2:20:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:05Speaker 01

  Like, not make her like do it, but like maybe jump in with her.

• 2:20:09Jocko Willink?

  My daughter, my youngest daughter just did a big cliff jump yesterday and long swim in the ocean, open, open ocean waters. You know, you gotta get them. And she was, I was, I thought she was gonna be panicky.

• 2:20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Because it's a big drop and it's ocean and whatever and it's a wave action.

• 2:20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:25Jocko Willink?

  But she was, I said, are you good? And she said, yeah.

• 2:20:27Speaker 01

  Do you think you'd do it too?

• 2:20:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that, I mean, unless you got traumatized by it or something like this.

• 2:20:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:34Speaker 01

  Where, bro, my. It's weird, come from Hawaii, you jump off everything.

• 2:20:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  In the water.

• 2:20:39Jocko Willink?

  That's right.

• 2:20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you see, you know about that. So we have this ledge, you know, that, you know, you saw it. And it's not that high, but for a one year old, it's pretty high.

• 2:20:50Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty good.

• 2:20:50Speaker 01

  But my boy and my daughter, when she was one, two, they just jump off. We'd catch them, they can't swim yet, you know. And my son, he jumped off a few times and was all good, but then one time he went to walk and there was this little, just a slight little dip. And you know, when you're one, you know, you're new to walk, he slipped, he tripped and he fell in. I caught him, but he full on like hit his side on the edge of the thing and he's, and he's crying. He's one and just, just over one, maybe like thirteen, fourteen. Made him do it again. He didn't want to do it though, but so I didn't like push him again. I just kept like, hey, do it. I got you. I got you. And he'd be like, eh, you know, crying or whatever. And then, you know, my daughter would do it. I would do it. Then he finally like reluctantly did it and we cheered for him and now he's all good.

• 2:21:35Jocko Willink?

  Good to go.

• 2:21:35Speaker 01

  He like forces himself. He makes me catch him now. Geez, he's like almost two. Anyway, but yeah, the, the point is you make him do it again, right?

• 2:21:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but you're very accurate in saying, don't traumatize him.

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:47Jocko Willink?

  Don't be like, you going right now, kid. You hawk him off. Now it's just getting worse. You're not, you're not, you, you know, it's like the, hey, do it. You, you should do it. Oh, you want to take a little break? That's okay. But you know, you should definitely do this. It's, it, you've already done it before.

• 2:21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:59Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to traumatize him worse.

• 2:22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:22:02Jocko Willink?

  That's not going to work out good.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially with the waterman, because it's like, it's one minute, it's all fun and games. And literally your mind can flip to like, I'm about to die.

• 2:22:12Jocko Willink?

  I used to say this, so in the nineties in the SEAL teams, when there was no war going on and whatever, you'd go out and you do training. There was times I, I would always tell guys, when you're working in the water, it's a real world mission. Like, we didn't know what a real world mission, I'd never been on one, but you, the, the fact of the matter is, when you're working with the water, it's a real world mission. Because if you screw something up, you can easily die.

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:37Jocko Willink?

  Easily, if you're not careful. One up, one down, just going to throw that out there. If you're doing any kind of this training. Any training in the water, one person stays up on the surface, the other person, you know, and be a lifeguard. You don't do simultaneous training in the water. So just throwing that out. There's a little safety note for everyone.

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:22:53Jocko Willink?

  One up, one down. That's the rule.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  Yes, and especially if you're carrying the kettlebells from Onnit or otherwise, at the bottom of the pool, the bottom of the ocean, the bottom of a reservoir, bottom of any body of water.

• 2:23:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:23:08Speaker 01

  One up, one down.

• 2:23:09Jocko Willink?

  One up, one down is the rule.

• 2:23:11Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, so that's how we utilize the Pixie. I think it's called Pixie. It's one of the Legend Bells. Anyway, if, I guess that doesn't really have much to do with what Onnit offers, but it just, I just thought of that because it just happened. Nonetheless, hey, it was represented in the story. Boom.

• 2:23:27Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 2:23:27Speaker 01

  Good. Anyway, if you want cool fitness stuff, Onnit.com slash Jaco. A lot of good information on there. Some socks on there. I mentioned the socks. Like, it's like this big deal, and here's the thing, it is. Onnit Socks. I was at TSA the other day. I had to stunt on them with my Onnit socks.

• 2:23:43Jocko Willink?

  You got issues.

• 2:23:44Speaker 01

  You know, they're looking, they're like, those are dope socks. Anyway, Onnit.com slash Jaco is a good spot.

• 2:23:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Psychological Warfare is an album that you can get where I talk about stuff of overcoming when you have little moments of weakness. And I'm gonna make another one.

• 2:23:58Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:23:58Jocko Willink?

  Make another one. Got it. I'm plotting on it.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:24:01Jocko Willink?

  It looks like it's gonna be called All Your Excuses Are Lies.

• 2:24:04Speaker 01

  Yes. Good, good title.

• 2:24:06Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you get that iTunes, Google Play, wherever MP3s are sold.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Amazon.

• 2:24:14Jocko Willink?

  And also Jaco White Tea. People have now seen that we have cans of Jaco White Tea. Where do you get them? You get them on Amazon if you want them. It tastes awesome. You can get the dry tea on there too, which you add water to, and then you brew it, and then if either one, you're gonna get an 8,000 pound deadlift. So that's cool. Do that. Got some books. Way the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. Two books.

• 2:24:41Jocko Willink?

  Which one do you like better?

• 2:24:43Speaker 01

  Do I like better? Uh, I can't say because the first one, the OG, the original one from Wimpy to Warrior will always have. That's the one that establishes establishes the ethos in my house anyway. But yeah, no, I can't say I think they're both outstanding, but it's good how you evolve the issues. You know, like it's like boom, basic.

• 2:25:06Jocko Willink?

  Think about how many people are like, oh, you're gonna write more? Well, yeah, well, what are you gonna write about? Think about all the issues you have as a human being and then think about all the issues you had as a kid.

• 2:25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:14Jocko Willink?

  Like, we're gonna cover all those.

• 2:25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like ten books, right?

• 2:25:16Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake's got some help for you.

• 2:25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:18Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, Way of the Warrior kid books. They, the one thing that's cool is people, as a parent, you're like, man, how do I get my kid to? Even something as stupid as cleaning your room, right? How do you get your kid to clean your room? Haven't read this book? I got pictures. I got, I just got a picture on Twitter the other day. Kid's got a vacuum cleaner and the dad's pumped, right? The dad's pumped, he's like, ew, look at this. That's a real thing.

• 2:25:42Speaker 01

  Even as, um, like, okay, so kids can read the book, of course, but I read it to my daughter, who was four at the time. Four, yeah. So I'm reading it and it's answering a bunch of questions I have. So it's like, hey, you know, my kid, you know, my daughter's like, okay.

• 2:25:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you mean parenting questions?

• 2:25:59Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, right? So, and it's just little stuff, little stuff, sometimes you won't even really think of. So like, okay, for example, and I said, I mentioned this one before, but this is a huge deal that I still use it. Like, it's on the front of my mind every single time. So you know how like you'll have a kid and they'll be like real good at something just kind of right away? Maybe your kid's more athletic or something, maybe they're bigger or taller, whatever. So they kind of win real quick, you know? So when they run into a situation where they're in an activity that actually requires practice, like a cartwheel or something like this. And so my daughter, she's big, she's an athletic little girl. Way bigger. She's like, you know, and so she has this friend, same age. She's like a week either older or younger. I forget.

• 2:26:40Speaker 01

  But they're the same age and she can do a cartwheel and just fly through cartwheels, one handed cartwheels, all this stuff. This other girl can. She's way smaller, you know, way whatever. So my daughter, she doesn't like that. Not the fact that the girl can, but just she can't, you know, so she tries to do it and it's like.

• 2:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Which sort of leads to that she can. It kind of starts.

• 2:26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's a whole thing. So it's, it's very upsetting. So Uncle Jake said something in the first one. That this will always stick with me. When she complains to me about it, she can't do a cartwheel and how Malia can do a cartwheel, but I can't and all this stuff. I say, and I quote, Uncle Jake, how do you expect to be good at something when you've never practiced?

• 2:27:20Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 2:27:21Speaker 01

  Just like the times table. Are you gonna be good at times table when you've never studied, you know? And it makes sense.

• 2:27:25Jocko Willink?

  You're not born knowing how to do a cartwheel.

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  You're not born knowing how to do a cartwheel. Just like how, you know, our other neighbor can play the guitar. You know how much practice, you know, kind of thing. And it's crazy because just that simple line right there, she was four and she understands, you know, she's like practicing, practicing. Anyway, that's how, that's how that book is, man.

• 2:27:43Jocko Willink?

  Warrior Kid books, there's two of them. Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. You can get those. You can also get Discipline Equals Freedom, the field manual. Field manual. How to Get After It. Simple as that. The audio version of that is not on Audible. It's on iTunes, Amazon Music, all of that stuff. Also Extreme Ownership. Extreme Ownership is on Audible. And I just looked, it was number two on Apple Audible Books, whatever that's called. Apple iBooks or something. Number two, right now. The book's been out for almost three years.

• 2:28:17Speaker 01

  What is Apple iBooks?

• 2:28:18Jocko Willink?

  It's where you can get books for your i.

• 2:28:20Speaker 01

  Audio books?

• 2:28:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, audio books. Yeah, sorry.

• 2:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no worries. Oh, speaking of books, by the way, i- if you want to get this one.

• 2:28:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Unit 731, Testimony.

• 2:28:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm putting it on the website.

• 2:28:31Jocko Willink?

  And Unit 731, just that. Oh, and the subtitle is Japan's Secret Biological Warfare.

• 2:28:38Jocko Willink?

  In World War II.

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, dark book, but see really see strongly, I feel strongly that that's like one you kind of want to the whole thing. It's crazy, but yeah, anyway, I'm gonna put them on our website, jocko podcast.

• 2:28:53Jocko Willink?

  You know, someone just hit me up on Twitter that he's like, hey, we, we had a long road trip for 4th of July. My wife, me and my kids aged, you know, 13, whatever, listened to 121, 122 and 123.

• 2:29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:10Jocko Willink?

  That's real significant. Uh, you know, I don't, I don't know if I want to say it, family time, but like, that's a real.

• 2:29:21Jocko Willink?

  The compared to the other things that you could be doing in the car.

• 2:29:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:29:24Jocko Willink?

  That's a real good thing to do in your car. Introduce your kids to a bit of history, a bit of human nature, a bit of the darkness of the world, a bit of overcoming that darkness. That's pretty cool. These are the kind of books, well, so that's that. But yeah, these books, you're, you're saying these are the kind of books you kind of want to have. It's, I think it's important to.

• 2:29:45Jocko Willink?

  I think it's important to know what's going on and know what has happened in the world, as I said.

• 2:29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:49Jocko Willink?

  You want to check that out.

• 2:29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, but yeah, I'll put it on the, on the website. That's the point. I'm have a, uh, or we have it on the page. Books from the episodes, all by episodes. So this one's from obviously 133.

• 2:30:02Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And, and, and also you've got on the website, cause Extreme Ownership, which I talked about is the first book I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. And we wrote another book, which is called The Dichotomy of Leadership. That's also on the website, right?

• 2:30:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:30:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, yeah, so that's, that's coming out September 25th. If you want to get that on the first edition.

• 2:30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:30:25Jocko Willink?

  You can go for the third edition. No one cares though.

• 2:30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:30:27Jocko Willink?

  What's the difference between third and, third edition and seventh edition? Nothing. It's the same. What's the difference between first edition and second edition? Well, it's, you are in the game.

• 2:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's kind of like the difference. If you take, if you run a race. Or if you're recognized, not recognized, but let's say you run a race. You. First, okay, first place guy, second place guy, third place guy, you all get medals. What is, what is the medal made out of? We'll just say metal, for lack of a better term. What's the difference between the medal?

• 2:30:58Jocko Willink?

  Gold?

• 2:30:59Speaker 01

  No, nothing. Only the color. Psychological.

• 2:31:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:31:03Speaker 01

  It's all made of the same stuff. Bad analogy.

• 2:31:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't even follow it, but that's cool.

• 2:31:08Speaker 01

  First edition, that's the point.

• 2:31:09Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're talking about here. And also, if you want to bring myself, Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke, we got Mike Sorelli, we got Flynn Cochran now on the team. If you need help with leadership in your organization, whatever kind of organization it is, you can hit us up. Echelon Front is the name of the company. We solve problems through leadership. Echelonfront.com. Get some. We have one more muster in 2018. It is in San Francisco. It's October 17th and 18th.

• 2:31:49Jocko Willink?

  It's going to sell out. I was, I just got an update from Jamie today. The Ops Director at Echelon Front. And she was saying that we're going to sell out a lot sooner than we thought. So if you want to come up there, extremeownership.com, the muster.

• 2:32:06Jocko Willink?

  I got a video to post about that, too. I haven't posted it yet, but yeah, that's that. Also, on top of the muster, we have the Roll Call, which is for police, military, law enforcement, firefighters, first responders. It's for people in uniform. That's happening September 21st in Dallas, Texas. It's only one day, so you don't have to miss too much work. It's a lower price point. So you can afford it, or you can get your organization to pay for it a little easier. Come on down to that. It's a great program. I just finished putting together the agenda yesterday. And so come on down.

• 2:32:45Jocko Willink?

  Until then, if you want to kick it with us, just a little bit more virtually, until we are together live, which we will be, we'll be together live at the muster in San Francisco, or at the Roll Call in Dallas, Texas, or at the immersion camp in Maine. We'll see you at one of those. But until then, if you do want to kick it with us, we will be on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on Facebook.

• 2:33:13Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and of course to all the military personnel that are listening.

• 2:33:23Jocko Willink?

  You provide the freedom that allows us to do what we do every day. You also hold the line against the evil that we talked about today. So, thank you to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, border patrol, other first responders. You actually provide the safety that allows us to do what we do every day. So, thanks to you and to the families that support all those that serve. Thank you. For supporting those families that serve and to everyone else that's listening. Thank you for listening. Thanks for supporting. I know it was a rough listen.

• 2:34:05Jocko Willink?

  I know it is. It's rough for me to read. It's rough for me to talk about, but it's also a reality and if you don't face reality, you can't fix it. If you don't face your past, you can't learn from it. So, what you have to do is you have to face them. You have to face what scares you. You have to face what bothers you. You have to face your weaknesses and face your fears and face your own darkness. Face them, own them, and overcome them all by stepping up

• 2:34:40Jocko Willink?

  and getting after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.