Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion With JD Baker Pt.3: No Progress. Only Carnage.

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion number three with J D Baker and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, J D.

• 0:10JD Baker?

  Good evening, Jocko.

• 0:16Jocko Willink?

  On November 8th, 1861, a week after replacing Scott as general in chief, McClellan spelled out his war aims to his confidant Barlow. He wrote, "I am fighting to preserve the integrity of the Union and the power of the government on no other issue.

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  To gain that end, we cannot afford to mix up the Negro question. It must be incidental and subsidiary." During his Western Virginia campaign, he had assured slaveholders that their peculiar institution would be religiously respected, that he would crush with an iron hand any attempted slave uprising. Later, he would repeat that pledge to the Virginia landowner Hill Carter. Quote, "I have not come here to wage war on the defenseless, upon noncombatants, upon private property, nor upon the domestic institutions of the land," end quote.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  So that right there, well, some, some, some quotes from McClellan from a book called Landscape Turn Red by Stephen W. Sears. And, you know, we've been talking, J D, about kind of an attitude, a political attitude that was not unfamiliar in the North, and that was the idea of just kind of a status quo. Hey, we'll just keep, just kind of keep things the way we are, keep things the way they are. And, and, and this is McClellan, right? And, and that probably fuels, when we talk about McClellan, the fact that he's not exactly a go getter. He's not exactly a proactive leader.

• 2:08Jocko Willink?

  He's not going out there to make things happen. He's not default aggressive. He's more a slow roller. He's going to let things kind of play out a little bit and hope that there's not much activity and hoping kind of like let the status quo continue.

• 2:27Jocko Willink?

  But be when you have that kind of attitude. You have a a non, we have a passive attitude, especially on the battlefield. You can lose battles because of it. And right now, Union troops, his Union troops are are demoralized in the east. The first battle of Manassas, right? The Union troops got kind of crushed. The Peninsula Campaign, Union troops didn't didn't do what they needed to do. Manassas II. Once again, it's it's Hurt Locker for the Union troops.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, meanwhile, Shiloh had taken place, which was a victory for the Union. But center of gravity is the east. I mean, from a political standpoint, is that is that a safe assessment?

• 3:20JD Baker?

  Yeah, you know, everybody focuses on that that eastern theater, even though, you know, when we talked about like yesterday with the Anaconda Plan and the head of the snake is coming from the West, that would, you know, just automatically, we would assume that that's going to be kind of the focus of main effort to to get everything in. But just because of the the location, you know, we talked about, you know, you got Richmond and you got DC that is a hop, skip and a jump, you know, right up the Telegraph Road from each other and everybody's eyes, newspapers, all that kind of stuff is is focused in on that on that eastern theater of campaign. And, you know, when you talk about, you know, McClellan, you know, of what he did to Pope, you know what I mean, when they put Pope

• 4:04JD Baker?

  in for the second battle of Manassas, you know what I mean? And his relationship.

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  So let's talk through that real quick because I don't know how much we covered it before. You had Pope that kind of had been given command and given the task. They start coming, they start kind of losing the battle. And McClellan is in a position where he could provide troops to support Pope and maybe turn the tide of that was Manassas II.

• 4:35Jocko Willink?

  And McClellan doesn't do anything.

• 4:37JD Baker?

  Yeah, and you know, so as Pope's gonna come over, Pope's coming over from the West. Uh, so it's even, you know, of today, if I was gonna use it, uh, whether it's in the military, you know, with Navy and Marines, you're either East Coast or West Coast. Uh, and regardless of anybody likes to kind of look, there's a, uh, there's a difference, uh, being East Coast and West Coast. A lot of times, you know, in the military, they're like, hey, are you an East Coast guy or you a West Coast guy? Well, there's a different, I'm just a guy, you know what I mean? It's the same organization, but it's just, it's different, uh, you know what I mean? Of, of folks that of where they're stationed. So it's no different there. You got guys that are out there on the Western theater side.

• 5:19JD Baker?

  And then you've got a lot of these folks that, uh, you know, if you look at the general officers, uh, in just of a whole, and you look at the Western side versus the, the Eastern theater side of McClellan and Burnside and Franklin and a lot of these guys, a lot of them are political kind of guy, like, you know, like McClellan is definitely playing-

• 5:40Jocko Willink?

  These are the Union East-

• 5:41JD Baker?

  Yeah, Union East guys, you know, with the Army of the Potomac. You know, these guys are playing politics. They're supposed to be like a general, you know what I mean? Like, they're supposed to be like, you know, crushing this insurgency. And, and a lot of them are trying to play politics at the same time, which McClellan is, is no different. And of course, you know, he gets put in command-

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  McClellan runs for president, right?

• 6:04JD Baker?

  Oh-

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  In 64?

• 6:06JD Baker?

  Yep, 64, he's gonna run as a Democrat.

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so even, even when you hear him talking about his strategy and how he's like, hey, I'm kind of a status quo guy, you could see that, that's almost like a predictive unification idea that he has, hey, look, if I can win the presidency, we can kind of roll this thing back and we can just let slavery keep going in the South. And it's almost like he's on, he's on campaign right now.

• 6:30JD Baker?

  Yeah, because I mean, you got to look at just like they got the preliminaries. So you know, each one of these parties got to kind of pick their guy of who they're going to run and the Democrats, not the Southern Democrats, the Northern Democrats, they're going with McClellan and they're going to pick McClellan. And you know, that's so you've got a commander in chief, you've got this civil war going on. He's basically giving you everything you're asking for. You know what I mean? So the Army of the Potomac is very well equipped. They're manned, you know what I mean? Like, and he's going to give a flotillas, they're going to go down, they're going to buy off on your peninsula campaign. You're going to go down there and monkey around on the peninsula. You know, your best

• 7:13JD Baker?

  chances are going against Johnson, you know what I mean? Who's the original commander for the Confederacy at the time, but then when he goes down, Robert E. Lee enters the field and you get the Seven Pines, what we kind of talked about. Well, that was a little bit of a game changer, bringing Bobby into the mix. So now he's into the mix. Lincoln visits you down there. He's not happy with how your conduct of war, because you're not moving fast enough. I mean, you know, everybody's on a timetable. You know, I could imagine the President of the United States, you know, we talked about at the beginning of the war, hey, it's going to be 90 days and it's out. You know, well, and now we're over 90 days. I mean, we're entering into, you know, of what you read with from Stephen Sears. I

• 7:56JD Baker?

  mean, we're in 62 now. It's not 90 days anymore. This is getting a little bit drawn out. He's going to pull you back out. He's not happy with you. You know, he brings Pope in from the West and then, you know, you've got resources that are on the East Coast and you're not, you know what I mean? Kind of acting like, oh, I didn't get the memo. Like, oh, I was supposed to send folks over there to support, you know what I mean? So you're like, really, dude? Like, come on, man. And then you get put back in command and it's basically, Lincoln really doesn't have anybody else. Like, who else do I have? I mean, you spoke of Shiloh and the first day, like we talked about, you know, with Grant, I mean, he runs a yard sale down there. The Confederates definitely, you know what I mean, had the opportunity

• 8:38JD Baker?

  to crush that entire army. I mean, when even when you read out of Company H of the privates are like, why are we stopping, man? Like, you know what I mean? Let's roll these dudes.

• 8:50Jocko Willink?

  When the privates are thinking that, you know, you screwed up, man.

• 8:54JD Baker?

  Yeah. And then you got Buell comes in with the Army of Ohio and then the next day. And look at the difference of commanders. So Beauregard takes command, launches a letter prematurely claiming victory. And then here comes Buell and Grant. You got two of them and both of them are like, the only thing we know what we're going to do tomorrow morning is attack. And they're going to push them all the way back. And then they're going to lose Corinth, Mississippi, you know, along the way. So there is that, that Western is showing good progress for this overarching anaconda plan. But we're here on the East Coast and you're having a little bit of problems with your most well-equipped army of the Potomac.

• 9:37JD Baker?

  And like we had stated before, I mean, for some odd reason, he's, a lot of the troops like little Mac. They like the little Napoleon. You know what I mean? They, they, they're all happy. So when he gets put back in charge of the Army of the Potomac, boom, you know, everybody's excited again. And maybe it's just because they're getting three hots and a cot. He's taking really good care of them. I, you know, I mean, I, I don't know. But now the relationship between an army commander and the, and the President of the United States of Abraham Lincoln. I mean, it's, it's not a good relationship to have. I mean, I couldn't imagine.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  So, so when, when McClellan gets put in command, he's actually taking over. Is it correct to say he's taking over, well, his army, but then absorbing the Pope's army as well? Is that what he gets control of?

• 10:31JD Baker?

  Yep. He's going to absorb pretty much, you know, he's always asking for more numbers. Even, you know, they've got the defenses of, of DC. So they've got troops that are back there in, in DC. And he's even like trying to pull folks from anywhere that he can, that, you know, because he's, he's exaggerating the size of the Army of Northern Virginia. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is becoming like, kind of like his, his go-to of like, hey, why aren't you moving? Well, hey, I just got a report that came in that, you know, there's, there's, there's 90,000 of them out there. Well. Yeah, when you look at the roles of the Confederacy, there's, you know, if we're looking at it now, I mean, I think they're just a little over 40,000. Uh, and he's sitting at right around like 85,000.

• 11:16JD Baker?

  Uh, and then if you look at the equipment, like if you were going to do like a, like a junk on the bunk between like a, a, a private soldier with the Army of Northern Virginia and then, and then like a private from the Army of the Potomac. Like, I, you know, the, the, the guy from the Confederacy is going to show up and he's got like a gun. And that's, he doesn't even have shoes on, you know what I mean? Like the guy's got nothing, you know what I mean? Uh, they're just kind of showing up with what they got. You look at the Army of the Potomac, but they've got everything, you know what I mean? They, they get, they get the kitchen sink. Uh, with what these guys, I mean, it's the industrial north. So, you know what I mean? You could only imagine. Uh, of, of the two, and that, that's kind of, you know, Lincoln's kind of looking at this of like.

• 11:59JD Baker?

  Man, the Confederacy seems to be doing pretty well and. Like it's not, they've got the industrial north backing them with, you know, contractors and just, you know, everything that they want, they get, they're doing more. With less and you can kind of see that Lincoln's like. It's leadership.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  Now, when it comes to leadership, you got McClellan and. Yeah. First of all, I'll say this, it seems like, yeah, I'm always talking about the fact that you need to think strategic at all times, you know, you need to think long-term. It seems like McClellan is thinking so long-term that he's thinking about his presidential run. You know what I mean? Like, hey, you need to worry about winning this right, what's going on right now, which, so that's a problem. The other thing is. When, when you've got a bad leader. It's very hard to overcome unless the bad leader kind of knows maybe he's not the best leader and he's got some subordinate leadership that's good. I've saw that many times in the SEAL teams, you get a, maybe a platoon commander is not the best platoon commander, but he's got a great platoon chief.

• 13:03Jocko Willink?

  It, it, and he, and as long as he says, you know what? I'm, I'm not the best at this job, but my platoon chief's really good. Hey, chief, how do you want to do this? Hey, chief, why don't you run this? Hey, chief, I'm all ears. Then, then that platoon's gonna do great. It's gonna do great. But if you have the arrogant leader that doesn't know what he's doing, and he's got an experienced platoon chief, but the arrogant platoon leader isn't listening to his subordinate leadership, it's gonna be a disaster. So for McClellan, it's not like McClellan doesn't have some competent and capable leaders in subordinate positions, right? I mean, he's got some kinda studs underneath him.

• 13:42JD Baker?

  Yeah, you know, and, and when you look at, I mean, you know, he's got, you know, McClellan, he's a West Point grad. He was, he's a Philly guy. So he was born in Philly, you know, goes to West Point. I mean, goes, fights in the Mexican-American war. He's down there with the guys. You know, he comes back out, gets into railroad. I mean, the guy's an intelligent person, you know what I mean? He's, he's white collar America. I mean, the guy, he's, he's, he's doing well for himself. And, but yeah, when you look at the, at the difference of a, of a leader, like he doesn't like have like a council of war, you know what I mean? Like probably the only other subordinate that he even like has any kinda conversations with is like Franklin, you know what I mean?

• 14:26JD Baker?

  Some of the other ones, but if you look at the roster of who he's got on the team. Now, of course, like we know more now about like who's on his roster than the rest of, but they were all West Point guys. I mean, you know, we had talked earlier, you know, I mean, he's got Hooker that's in there, you know, he's got Mead that's in there, he's got Reynolds in there, I mean, he's got Hancock. I mean, these are some capable guys and he's not even like bringing them in to even ask them what they think.

• 14:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the old council of war. All that means is listen to the people that are on your team. Like, like listen to what they have to say, cause they might have some ideas, they might see some things that you don't see. Doesn't seem like too much to ask there, McClellan.

• 15:10JD Baker?

  Yeah, and you know, we, we kinda talked about a little bit about, you know, in the last one, we talked about Jackson. You know what I mean? And Stonewall and how he, you know, if he, he didn't, like, he did a lot of the same thing. Like he kept, he was very close hold with a lot of his plans because, you know, he had trust issues. But the difference is, is like, If you were gonna put like McClellan, McClellan is like one of these guys that you gotta run around with a flamethrower, man, setting his ass on fire to get him to do stuff. You know, when you look at a guy like Stonewall Jackson, you gotta run around with a bucket of water, man, because that dude's on fire. You know what I mean? He's just, and he's gonna win. You know what I mean? So when you're looking at the difference of

• 15:53JD Baker?

  the two folks, you know, Lincoln is trying to take a flamethrower, you know what I mean? And put some fire under McClellan's ass. And he's gonna, he's gonna, he's slow rolling because yeah, he's, yeah, he's got a long-term plan. I want to get on the Democratic ticket. You know what I mean? I want to run for President of the United States. And, you know, and we'll just play status quo. We'll just keep the Union. We'll all be here and you guys just keep doing what you're doing. And, you know, so that, that excerpt that you read out of the book Landscape Turned Red about McClellan, I mean, that's, gives you a really good insight of what this guy's mindset's like. So, you know, when you talk about like aligning with the boss to make sure, you know, you got the boss, you got all these

• 16:35JD Baker?

  folks that are up there that, you know what I mean? Like, they're, they're gonna deal with this issue of slavery in the South. And then you've got an army commander that's, he's not on board with the plan.

• 16:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's really goes back to like an extreme ownership. If you don't believe in what you're doing, then you're not gonna make the effort. You're not gonna be able to overcome the obstacles that you face. It's just not gonna happen. And here you got this guy that like literally doesn't care. You know, he's just, hey, we just want to keep the Union together. You want guys want to keep having slaves? Cool. I'm, I'm fine with that. We just want to keep the Union together and that way I can be President. So unaligned. So, September 1862, up until this point, the battles are taking place in Virginia. Lee wants to get the fight out of Virginia.

• 17:29Jocko Willink?

  Proximity wise, Maryland looking pretty good. Let's get, let's get this thing up into Maryland. Um, and, and Lee comes up with a plan, a plan on how they're gonna, they're gonna make this move to take the fight out of Virginia, up into Maryland. And he, and he writes out a pretty detailed order. Uh, kind of a famous order. It's become a very famous order. It's order 191 from General Lee. And I'm actually going to read through this thing. Cause I think it's a good example of how the, how these individuals, how these leaders are communicating to their subordinate leadership, the kind of thought process they're going through. So

• 18:11Jocko Willink?

  this is what General Lee says in order 191. One, the citizens of Frederickstown's, Frederickstown being unwilling while overrun by members of this army to open their stores in order to give them confidence and to secure to officers and men purchasing supplies for benefit of command. All officers and men of this army are strictly prohibited from visiting Frederickstown except on business, in which case they will bear evidence of this in writing from division commanders. The Provost Marshal in Frederickstown, Frederick Town will see that his guard rigidly enforces this order. So generally he's thinking hearts and minds, right? This is a, oh yeah. Hey, don't freaking go in there

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  like, like Marines on Liberty in, in Subic Bay in 1984, right? Yeah. That's not what we're looking to do. No, hearts and minds. Yes, hearts and minds. Don't go in there. So that's a good, that's a good process or a good thought process. Two, Major Taylor will proceed to Leesburg, Virginia and arrange for transportation of the sick and those unable to walk to Winchester, securing the transportation of the country for this purpose. The route between this and Cole Pupper Courthouse east of the mountains being unsafe will no longer be traveled. Those on the way to this army already across the river will move up promptly

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  and others will proceed to Winchester collectively and under command of officers, at which point being the general depot of the, this army, its movements will be known and instructions given by commanding officer regulating further movements. So those are some pretty specific orders. He's pretty clear about what he wants done as far as what, what Major Taylor's got going on.

• 20:00JD Baker?

  Yeah. And the, and the logistical aspect, you know, when you look at it of the locations of what like Winchester, Virginia and that kind of area, that's over towards the Shenandoah Valley. Uh, so when he's looking at that, a lot of folks like the, the North really doesn't figure out until later on in the war that when you look at the Shannon, that is what we consider the breadbasket of the Confederacy, meaning that that's where logistical trains are going to come out. And even still to this day, you know, when you head out of Winchester, you go down through the Shenandoah towards like, uh, you know, um, Charlottesville, Virginia kind of area that, that area is just Virginia farmland. So it becomes the breadbasket of the Confederacy and, and he's basically telling them what route.

• 20:45JD Baker?

  So, you know, there's nothing that says in there about like the telegraph road. So if you're looking at it today to kind of visualize where you're at is like Shepherdstown, West Virginia, and you can, there's a way, you know, for the Potomac River, there's certain ways. Potomac is a, that's a, that's a, that's a huge obstacle. Uh, you know what I mean? To be able to cross over. And so, yeah, he's, he's being a very specific, uh, you know, with Major Taylor and, and how folks are going to move in and around through Leesburg, Virginia that's still there. And, you know, we have to imagine, uh, of these folks moving in around that area in Virginia, people have been operating in that area prior to us even being a country. You know what I mean? Like these roads have been established and, and just to add in when

• 21:27JD Baker?

  you talk about like, he's going to go into Maryland. Remember we talked earlier, you know, Maryland's a slave state. So, you know, you win hearts and minds and you sway the state of, of Maryland, there's a possibility you could get some Southern Thymposizers and you could beef up your numbers and start recruiting out of Maryland, which there are folks from Maryland that stand up and fight for the Confederacy. Uh, so it's a split state.

• 21:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that's.

• 21:53JD Baker?

  That makes the, the hearts and minds even more important.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  Huge.

• 21:56JD Baker?

  It's a semi-permissive environment. You might get, actually end up turning.

• 21:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Uh, three, the army will resume its march tomorrow, taking the Haggertown Road. General Jackson's command will form the advance and after passing Middletown, with such portion as he may select, take the route towards Sharpsburg, cross the Potomac at the most convenient point, and by Friday morning, take possession of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, capture such of them as may be at Martinsburg, and intercept such as may attempt to escape from Harper's Ferry. So, again, what I like about that order is he's giving a lot of leeway to Jackson, right?

• 22:42Jocko Willink?

  Hey, however you see fit, whatever portion you select, he's giving a lot of leeway. The broad commander's intent is pretty clear, but he doesn't really care specifically how Jackson gets this part of it done.

• 22:52JD Baker?

  Yeah, he, he's gonna give, you know, uh, Robert E. Lee is, is, you know, he's got two corps. You know, second corps is Stonewall Jackson, you know, first corps, uh, we're talking about Longstreet. So he's gonna be one of the players that's gonna be introduced, you know, coming in today. So he's got, he fights two corps, uh, and, and he, you know, there is not a leash on Jackson. Uh, and, and he's just gonna broad, broad, yeah, I'm, I'm the same as you, the one, it's like, you know, just select, he may select, you know what I mean, and take the route towards Sharpsburg and cross the Potomac at the most convenient point.

• 23:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you compare that with the previous one where he's talking about Major Taylor, and he's like, hey, the route between this and Culpeper Courthouse, he's talking about a specific building.

• 23:35JD Baker?

  Yes.

• 23:36Jocko Willink?

  And meanwhile, he's telling Jackson, just, hey, you know, wherever you think it's cool, go ahead and get some, you know, wherever you want to cross it, sounds good. So that, that massive amount of trust that they have built up allows for some real decentralized command. And you can see Lee modulating the amount of direction he's giving based on the trust that he has and the people that he's working for. Again, this is another interesting thing about this order. Uh, number four, General Longstreet's command will pursue the same road as far as Boonesboro, where it will halt with reserve, supply, and baggage trains of the army.

• 24:10Jocko Willink?

  So there's Longstreet. We talking about Longstreet right now? What do you want? Do you want to talk about Longstreet? We're talking about him. Should we talk about him?

• 24:17JD Baker?

  Yeah, you know, James Longstreet, again, he's a West Point grad, went to West Point. He was born, he's born in Georgia, but raised in South Carolina.

• 24:30Jocko Willink?

  Hey, just spoiler alert for, for people like this guy that we're talking about now. You, you've probably heard of Jackson, Stonewall Jackson. You definitely heard of General Lee. Longstreet, you, if you, if you're familiar with the Civil War, you heard of him. But if you're not that familiar with the Civil War, you might not have heard about him. But he's going to play all kinds of pivotal roles in all kinds of situations and he's gonna, he's got some, he's a massive part of this Civil War story. So just, that's why JD's giving a little more detail on Longstreet. He's a very prominent character in this story.

• 25:04JD Baker?

  Yeah, and, you know, and Longstreet is, he's a, he's a competent commander. You know what I mean? For, for working with, with Robert E. Lee. But if you, if you're looking at, you know, of the two corps commander of however Robert E. Lee came into this, that fell into his lap, it's almost like a ying and yang. You know what I mean? Of Jackson and Longstreet. They have, you know, they have different views on things. And, and not, anyone is, is right or wrong or indifferent. They just, they go about things differently. And Lee knows this and, and uses it to the advantage. You know what I mean? Of like, okay, well, why is he sending Jackson over towards Harpers Ferry?

• 25:48JD Baker?

  And giving that leeway? Why is he keeping, you know, Longstreet close hold? The one thing about, you know, when you look at, you know, we talked a little bit about the Army of Northern Virginia, when you've got two corps. Robert E. Lee does give like a lot of latitude to both commanders because he can't keep his army together. They're like two huge sharks that are literally eating the landscape as they move. They're not like the Union that'll just go into camp and just have all the provisions just come into camp. The Confederacy can't operate that way. So he's got to keep them separate. But then close enough to where if he wants a decisive move, these guys are going to giddy up and they're going to get there quickly.

• 26:31Jocko Willink?

  Just to expand on what you just said, because this is a huge point. So we know that the, we know that the Union is industrialized and they're producing things and they can do things like run trains and logistics. So what you're saying is when the Union Army sets up camp somewhere, they can just sit there because they're going to have food and, and materiel sent to them through organized logistics trains based on really the logistics trains that are pre-existing just from the nature of life in the North. The Confederates, they don't have those pre-existing logistics trains. They don't have that focus

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  either. So what the Confederate Army does is it forages off the land and they go in with, I mean, these are 20, 30,000 people with how many horses? How many, if you got a, if you got a corps, how many people are in Jackson's Corps? I mean, just off the top? I mean, just a rough estimate.

• 27:32JD Baker?

  Yeah, he's got 15,000, 20,000 folks.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  So 15 to 20,000 people. How many horses do you think he has?

• 27:39JD Baker?

  Well, I mean, just to kind of, to give a visual of, because everybody's seen a cannon, you know what I mean? A piece of artillery. So if you look at one piece of artillery, there is six horses pulling one piece. Then behind that, you know what I mean? So each artillery piece, you've got the case on and then you've got an ammo chest. So there's another six horses and six horses. So if we do our, you know, quick math there, you know, I'm at 18 horses. Well, of course a lieutenant gets a horse. You know what I mean? So now we're at 19 horses. You know, the Army moves off of, you know what I mean? A, a horse and a mule. And, and when you look at the difference, just to elaborate

• 28:21JD Baker?

  a little bit more to kind of, you know, in the industrial North, if you're just talking about like hooves of, of animal, you know, it's going to move these armies. Uh, in the industrial North, they're like, how do you make a horse? You know, you gotta get a mommy horse and a daddy horse and they gotta really, really like each other. You know what I mean? And then, you know, a few months later, you know what I mean? You're gonna get this foal and it's gonna run around for a couple of years. The first couple of years of life, just running around trying to kill itself. You know what I mean? And then you gotta train this thing. You know what I mean? So basically, at the onset of the beginning of the Civil War, if you look at it from 61, by the time they've got like horses, if you're gonna try to make horses, because that's just what the North

• 29:04JD Baker?

  does, they just make stuff. Well, you can't make a horse. What they have on the ground at the start of the war is what they're gonna finish with. So what do they do in the United States government? They contract. They send contractors and they just scour the landscape and they're gonna buy anything on four legs. And you know what I mean? And mules, they're gonna pay any amount for a mule. You know, because it's better than a horse. You know, the difference between a horse and a mule, a mule asks you for his resume. You know what I mean? It's not just gonna just blindly follow you around. Like a mule is just smarter than a horse. In the agrarian South, if you wanna be like, if you want a horse, you gotta bring your horse. And then when you get there, the quartermaster's like, okay, yeah, hey,

• 29:46JD Baker?

  Jocko, there's you and your horse. And he gives you 50 bucks. Here's 50 bucks for your horse. You know what I mean? We just bought your horse, now go ride it around. Well, then you go into the first battle and your horse gets shot and it's dead. Next thing you know, the quartermaster shows back up, hey, Jocko, man, where's my 50 bucks?

• 30:02JD Baker?

  What do you mean? Well, I paid you 50 bucks. What'd you do with my horse? Well, it got shot and killed. Well, you better get another horse to give me my $50 back. So, you know what I mean? So in the agrarian South, at the beginning, you know what I mean? They're on the cavalry side, of course, they're better capable. You know, because you're looking at the industrial North, you're looking at a lot of immigrants that are coming in that just don't ride. So when you're looking at the difference of these two armies, it's just, it's a, it's leadership wise of how you're gonna, how you're gonna have the ability to operate is gonna be very different between the two. When you look at, going back in with

• 30:42JD Baker?

  Longstreet, Longstreet, prior to the war, again, he was a West Point grad. He ended up, he's one of, you know, a lot of folks don't know, but James Longstreet was in Ulysses S. Grant wedding.

• 30:57JD Baker?

  You know what I mean? They went to school together. I mean, they're friends. It doesn't matter. You know, when they went to school together, there wasn't like a north and a south. They were just West Point grads. And Longstreet was like, he was like one of those guys that like everybody wanted to be around. You know what I mean? He was a really likeable guy. And he ended up becoming really good. I mean, if you're in somebody's wedding, like, dude, you're tight. You know, so you got Grant that's in there. So that's another thing with, with, with Longstreet that a lot of folks don't know, but he was a very likeable guy. He's a very likeable commander. He was very competent at what he does. But this is the Army of Northern Virginia.

• 31:35JD Baker?

  And he's not a Virginian.

• 31:38JD Baker?

  You know, so, you know, but still, you know, Robert E. Lee, you got Stonewall Jackson, and Robert E. Lee called him, Longstreet, his nickname, he was his old warhorse. Like, he was just like, you know, he was very consistent, you know, and consistency is accuracy in leadership. You know what I mean? With as far as like with James Longstreet. So, you know, when you're looking at those two commanders, so Longstreet and Lee, when you're talking about this command with four, so basically, Lee's gonna, you know, he is gonna be in trace with Longstreet. Jackson is gonna run independent operations towards Harpers Ferry, and that's where you come in with, with four. But when you look at it of the two commanders, yeah, they're ying

• 32:22JD Baker?

  and yang, but the end result, they both get the job done. They're both competent commanders.

• 32:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and then, and then you as a leader, or Lee as a leader, he's got to look at, and like you said, he utilizes them, kind of plays them to their strengths, right? I'm gonna take Longstreet, who's the, you know, the more, for lack of a better word, the more squared away, hey, I got this. I, oh, you want me to set up camp? You want me to run the, what does he have? The reserve, the supply, the baggage trains? Like, that's, that's Longstreet's personality. Meanwhile, Stonewall Jackson's like, hey, you're gonna go. Go get it. And so Lee understands their personalities. And just to wrap the thought on the logistics, so, since the South doesn't have great logistics.

• 33:09Jocko Willink?

  They're and they've got all these horses and all these men, they're eat, they're foraging off the land. So if you've ever been like a hunting, a hunting elk, I go hunting elk and sometimes a herd of elk, you you'll stumble upon upon a place where a herd of elk has gone through and there's nothing there. Like every piece of grass, every leaf up until, you know, however tall they can reach is just gone, barren. And I mean, a herd of elk's maybe, you know, a hundred, a hundred elk, maybe, maybe not even that, and everything's gone on a path. So that's what I always think of when we, when you and I talk about like

• 33:49Jocko Willink?

  this, this, this army is like a locust swarm that moves through the land and eats everything. So there's, there's nothing left. And that, so, so two things are going on. You've got to keep that army moving. Like you can't just, they can't just sit there like the north can rest, basically. Hey, well, they're sending us water, they're sending us food, they're sending us, you know, firewood, the, the, the south, they're burning everything because they make fires, furniture, houses, whatever. It's just a different setup for each one of these two armies. So always keep that in mind. Now, look, there's advantages to where you can just forge, you don't need a big supply chain. But this isn't one of those situations, right? There's an advantage when you say, oh, we can just live off the

• 34:32Jocko Willink?

  land. On an expedition, that's positive. Once you're in this type of situation, though, it can turn into a negative very quickly. Going back to this order 191, number five, General McClos, with his own division and that of General R. H. Anderson, will follow General Longstreet. On reaching Middletown, will take the route to Harpers Ferry and by Friday morning possess himself of the Maryland Heights and endeavor to capture the enemy at Harpers Ferry and vicinity. Pretty straightforward. Number six, General Walker, with his division, after accomplishing the object in which he is now engaged, will cross the Potomac at

• 35:14Jocko Willink?

  Cheeks Ford, ascend it, ascend its right bank to Lovettsville, take possession of the Loudon Heights if practicable by Friday morning, keys forward on his left and the road between the end of the mountain and the Potomac on his right. He will, as far as practicable, cooperate with General McClos and Jackson and intercept the retreat of the army.

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  Pretty specific orders. Once again, he likes that word practicable.

• 35:43JD Baker?

  Yeah, that's a, that's a pretty popular. Well, I see you smiling at me across the table because I, everybody's always like, if practicable, like what does that mean? Well, I mean, it's a, it's a, it is a, you know, it's a, it's a pretty common term, but you know, it's like, if you tell me that you're letting me make my own decisions of whether or not I, I think I can.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  There's a wide, wide, wide range of practicable.

• 36:06JD Baker?

  Yes.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  There's a wide range of what's practicable. If I ask you to do something for me, if it's practicable, does that mean, you know, if I say, hey, pick me up a steak from the store, if it's practicable, you're like, okay. Well, you go in there and there's, uh, the steak is four bucks. And you're like, hey, cool. Get Jocko two steaks. You go in there and the steak's 30 bucks. You're like, that's not practicable. I didn't tell you what was practicable or not. So it's kind of your decision.

• 36:32JD Baker?

  Yeah, I'm making the call.

• 36:33Jocko Willink?

  It's up to you.

• 36:34JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  So there's some vagueness to that word.

• 36:37JD Baker?

  But then, you know, everybody always kind of like, if I know that like, okay, well Jocko really wants that steak. And if I, I bring him like a piece of, piece of fish, like he's going to be pissed. You know what I mean? So it's like, ah, maybe I better crack out that 40 bucks. Man, go ahead and get the steak because I know that's what the boss wants.

• 36:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so I guess what we end up with here is if I ask Jackson for a steak, I'm getting steak. Like he doesn't care if he has to slap around the cashier, like we're getting steak, right? Maybe if you ask someone else, perhaps, uh, General Walker, and I don't, I don't know too much about General Walker. Maybe he's the kind of guy that, you know, he's, yeah, he's going to make the call. Maybe, maybe not. I mean, if you ask McClellan for a steak, you better, you better get the, the white wine ready for, for fish, right? Cause you're not getting steak. Most likely he's not going to beg you. It doesn't seem practicable to him.

• 37:29JD Baker?

  Right.

• 37:30Jocko Willink?

  So it's a big word.

• 37:31JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Jocko Willink?

  Going to cause some issues. Uh, seven. General D H Hills division will form the rear guard of the army pursuing the road taken by the main body. The reserve artillery ordinance and supply trains, et cetera, will proceed, will precede General Hill.

• 37:49Jocko Willink?

  And number eight, General Stewart will detach a squadron of cavalry to accompany the commands of General Longstreet, Jackson, and McLaughlin, and with the main body of the cavalry will cover the route of the army, bringing up all stragglers that may be left behind. Number nine, the generals, the commands of Generals Jackson, McLaughlin, and Walker, after accomplishing the objects for which they have been detached, will join the main body of the army at Boonesboro or Hagerstown. Number 10, each regiment on the march will habitually carry its axes in the regimental ordinance wagons for use of the men at their encampments to procure wood, etc. By command, General REE.

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So we can see that's a thorough plan. I mean, we, we know what's happening. I mean, you could draw this out, if you got out your little sand table, you threw out a map on the ground, you could, you could plot out what's about to happen.

• 38:46JD Baker?

  Yeah, you know, with this here, just like we kind of did earlier, when I was showing you like the Harpers Ferry, the Loudon Heights, you know, the Maryland Heights, where Jackson's gonna be, and then when you look at like Hagerstown is in Maryland. So this is kind of like, you know, he's gonna make his way north, and as we're moving up north, we might as well just swing by, man, and do a quick little raid on Harpers Ferry and pick up a little bit of extra, you know, logistical stuff for, for the trip north. Uh, cause it's, it's not just about, you know, the foraging for food. You know, you, you got these guys that are infantry guys, so okay, let's say they're carrying 40 rounds on them. Well, that's gonna go pretty quick in a gunfight, so they're gonna need more ammo. Uh, so with that Harpers Ferry, it's an arsenal, you know what I mean?

• 39:30JD Baker?

  Lot of ammo, lot of weapons, that kind of thing. Uh, and it's also, uh, if you're looking at it of where Harpers Ferry is, if you can control that, you got the Shenandoah River, and you got the Potomac River, the confluences. I mean, if, if you command the Maryland Heights, like we were looking over top of there, like, like, wow, I mean, you, that's a commanding Loudon Heights in Virginia.

• 39:50Jocko Willink?

  So, so Harpers Ferry is sort of sitting on a peninsula. In between the Shenandoah and the, and, and the

• 39:59JD Baker?

  Potomac.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  Potomac River. And it's where those two rivers converge and then turn into just the Potomac, which takes you to the ocean.

• 40:08JD Baker?

  Yep, yep, straight past DC, straight out to the

• 40:11Jocko Willink?

  So this is a very prominent point and would be great, like you said, to grab a hold of. We hear a lot about Harper's Ferry.

• 40:19JD Baker?

  Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, like we said, I mean, the activity that's there coming off the Potomac. Uh, you know what I mean? There's a, a sea and there's a tow path. You know what I mean? Where they have, uh, basically, you know, when you look at a lot of the old towns and a lot of the old rivers and that kind of thing of like, well, how do we move? You know, produce like upstream. So they're going to canal. You know what I mean? A lot of these riverways and they're going to use locks. So if you're like a little mini Panama canal, you know what I mean? Or all along these rivers, the way they can flood them and then flat boats. And then they've got like, uh, you know, harnesses with, with mules or horses or kids. Uh, and they're going to pull these up the tow path.

• 41:03JD Baker?

  Uh, and that's kind of like the way how they're kind of making their living there. So yeah. This here of, of where Harper's Ferry, Virginia is at that time, uh, has been in existence forever. Uh, and it's, if you control the Loudon Heights and the Maryland Heights, you control those two rivers. And it also, if, if Robert E. Lee controls that and looking at anybody coming up from the Loudon Heights or up through Maryland. It's also securing his logistical lines of crossing over the Potomac and now into that western part of Maryland. Uh, so, you know, he's going to send the folks down there and, uh, and just kind of pick that up along the way.

• 41:47JD Baker?

  And then he's going to, you know, they're just going to hang out in Hagerstown, Maryland. And then once Jackson's done, then they'll just make their way right back up there, link up in Hagerstown, and then we're going to start pushing north. So that's the whole plan. And I'm with you. I mean, I think it's very, very well thought out plan of where, yeah. We could get a map out, we could look at this on here and we could explain of what everybody's part is in this special order 191.

• 42:12Jocko Willink?

  So you got, when you, when you think about the part and what each person's part is, well, we got to explain each person, what, you know, the, the Jackson, McClaw, Walker, all these various people gotta get their orders. So how they getting their orders? Well, uh, General Lee writes these orders down in, in a clear manner and then they, some, you know, probably some private that knows how to write copies them. And then they, they bundle them up and send them with couriers out to deliver everyone, hey, here's the orders. This is what we're doing. That's how they're distributing. There's no, there's no email. There's no, not sending a PowerPoint brief. That's how you're doing it. It's a written copy of these orders.

• 42:52Jocko Willink?

  And so these couriers go out and low and behold, one of these couriers drops his plan. What happens with that?

• 43:04JD Baker?

  Yeah. Uh, to kind of give the, the visual to the folks, listen, when you look at a, at a, like a, at a tent where the commander is going to be. So you got the commander and then they got the flag, you know what I mean? For that commander. So that, that's how people can identify like, you know, Jocko would have a flag and I'm riding around, I'm looking for Jocko and up there, there's Jocko's flag. I can go there. Now that doesn't mean Jocko is in there. Like he might be out doing like Jocko stuff. They're not just sitting in the tent waiting. Uh, some are, uh, you know, they don't leave their, what we call commander's intents, uh, not commander intent. Uh, but you know, so you got these, you got these, an old man, not really, you know, an older guy.

• 43:45JD Baker?

  That's not really, you know, he can't hike and stuff like that, but he's sitting in there at a table, kind of like what we're at. And he's got a stopwatch. You know what I mean? He's got a timepiece that's there and he's logging in these messages of when they're received. And if there's messages going out, so he's recording all of this for the commander. So that when Jocko comes back to his command post, you can go there, straight to the table and put up, yep, this came in, this went out and go through your messages and what time they were received. So that you can prioritize which ones need to go out. You know what I mean? How long has this been sitting there? And then you've got like a bunch of teenagers with ponies sitting right outside. And these guys are the couriers. So if you could imagine, you know what I mean? Like, and we know how teenage boys are. We both have one.

• 44:31JD Baker?

  And you got these teenage boys on a pony. And they're like, hey, take this one. You're going to Jocko. Hey, I need you to take this one to Echo. This one's going over here. And they just give it and these teenagers on ponies. They're out and they're off looking for that commander. And like, as you said, this, this one commander, you know, I mean, if, is they, they take the special order 191 and it's actually rolled up with three cigars in the middle of special order 191. And, you know, the teenager just gets it. You know, he's not old enough to smoke yet. You know what I mean? He gets it, puts it in his little satchel and, and off in the way he goes.

• 45:15JD Baker?

  Well, as he's going, you know, it's, it's the, it's the typical teenager. He, he left his satchel bag is not secure. Uh, and as they're, you know, riding along, out falls special order 191 with three cigars wrapped around it.

• 45:35Jocko Willink?

  So a union guy picks it up. What's he excited about?

• 45:38JD Baker?

  Well, one, it's an enlisted union guy. You know what I mean? Cause it's just like, you know, they're out there walking along. If you're hiking, you're kind of looking at stuff and you're like, oh shit, man, look at that. You know what I mean? They see this thing wrapped laying on the ground. He picks it up and he's like, dude, three cigars. You know what I mean? And like takes the, the, whatever the paper is wrapped, throws it off to the side. Dude, I got three cigars. I mean, it's pretty bad. Like tobacco is like a big deal, especially for northern folks. Cause where's all the tobacco? It's in Virginia. You know what I mean? So for these guys up north, they're not getting tobacco anymore. So this, this dude's stoked. Well, then one of the other guys is like, yeah, what's on that paper there? Huh? Well, this is interesting. I think we need to like

• 46:20Jocko Willink?

  We better push this up the chain.

• 46:22JD Baker?

  Push this up the chain. So let's just act like there was like one cigar. And we keep the two, send up the, and so that special order 191, it makes its way to the commander, General McClellan.

• 46:36Jocko Willink?

  So McClellan gets the entire battle plan from General Lee, line by line. He knows what's gonna happen. And he, speaking of stoked, he gets pretty stoked at this. I'm gonna pull a little excerpt here from the book, Lincoln's Lieutenants. Here's what, here's what this book says about it. "The lost order," that's order 191, "as it came to be known, "was an intelligence coup unrivaled in the war. That McClellan fully realized what fortune had awarded him is evident "in the exuberant telegram he sent at noon that day to the president." Quote, "I think Lee has made a gross mistake if the plans of the rebels remain unchanged.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  "I have all the plans of the rebels and will catch them up in their own trap if my men are equal to the emergency." He closed with a pledge, "We'll send you trophies."

• 47:36Jocko Willink?

  So McClellan thinks he's got this, he's, he thinks he's good to go.

• 47:41Jocko Willink?

  But McClellan's a weird guy, man.

• 47:45JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 47:45Jocko Willink?

  He's a weird guy. And it seems, am I interpreting this right from what I understand of the story? It sounds like he's a guy that he doesn't tell his subordinates that he knows what the enemy is gonna do, almost as if he wants everyone to think that he's just a brilliant commander. It's like if you, you know, had the opposing teams, you know, in football, you had their playbook. And so you started setting, you didn't tell your team, you didn't say, hey, I have their playbook, that's why we're gonna do this. Instead you just say, hey, over here, you know, set up on this side. And when they call this, do this. And now you look, I mean, you look like a brilliant tactician and strategist because

• 48:28Jocko Willink?

  because they just think you're smart. Was he trying to pull that off? I mean, was that, was that what happened?

• 48:33JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, from the, from the readings that I get, that's exactly, you know, he gets this order and he's reading it over. And it's, it's almost like, you know, like I, I think in the book, he talks about like, he, he alludes to like Franklin, like a little bit, doesn't tell him he's got the order, but just kind of like giving him a little, you know, a little, uh, you know what I mean? Teasing him a bit about like, you know what I mean? Hey, I, I, this is going to be good, man. Like I, I've got a plan for this and, and it's all going to be me. I mean, it's like, like you said, like we're, we're strolling through the locker room and we find the other team's playbook and I'm the head coach and you know, like the, the water boy brings me this book of like, hey, coach, like, look what I found. You know what I mean? And it's Bobby Boucher and he gives me the book and

• 49:17JD Baker?

  he's not really, you know, smart of a guy. And then I'm the head coach and I don't tell my offensive, defensive coordinator that dude, I got the whole game plan. But, and then you're looking at me because I'm like, I'm, I start to call play. You're like, hey, Jocko, I'm, I'm going to call the plays on this one. You know what I mean? Like, well, you're like, what do you mean you call? I'm offensive coordinator. You always look, you know what, man? I've got a good feeling about this. You know what I mean? Let's, let's, let's do the old number four. You know what I mean? And you're like, and then it like, it, the old number four, just like, bam. Oh, it's just crushing them. And you're all looking at me like, JD, man, is like on his game today. But, you know what I mean? But like, why wouldn't I sit down and check? Who cares if the team doesn't know? But my

• 50:00JD Baker?

  offensive, my subordinate commanders, like my offensive coordinator, my defensive coordinator, special teams, like, why am I not calling in all my assistant coaches and be like, dude, look what I got? You know, because they could then read it and interpret it as well. Uh, but so, yeah, I mean, that's, McClellan wants to make it look like he's just a frickin' genius. And it's just going to elevate his ego even more.

• 50:25Jocko Willink?

  So he starts doing what you said. He's like, hey, we're going to do the old number four. And, and by the way, McClellan up to this point, as we know, is like a, is like a habitual slow roller. He's, he's default passive, right? He's, and, and now all of a sudden, he starts moving troops aggressively. He starts making, making movements. And

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  Lee starts to execute the plan, but McClellan noted, but sorry, Lee notices that McClellan is doing things, making moves that are out of character. I think Lee uses the words like, "These are out of," McClellan's doing things that are out of character, which is really absolutely incredible to have that much perception of what's happening on the battlefield that your opposing general, you realize that he's doing things that are out of character. That's a pretty, that's pretty impressive to be able to sense that.

• 51:24JD Baker?

  Yeah, I would, and I think that's what makes the Civil War so much more intriguing is because like all these guys, you know, they fought together. I mean, so it would almost be as if like, you know what I mean? If we took like you and Leif, you know what I mean? And you would be like, "Man, Leif's a little bit out of character." You know his character like so well that you're like, "He knows something."

• 51:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, like Leif is staying in position. Something's weird.

• 51:54JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Jocko Willink?

  Because normally Leif is trying to go, right? So I'm like, "Oh, there's something going on. He's got some kind of a trap set." Yeah. So these guys know each other to the point where they're, where they're suspect when you're doing something that's not expected. And so Lee senses that and changes up his plan.

• 52:12JD Baker?

  Yeah. So, you know, because you got to get up and over like the prominent terrain feature for folks that have ever been in that region of Western Maryland. You got to get over what's called South Mountain. I mean, it's a large mountain range running in of South Mountain. Not if you're like a West Coast guy, of course, you know, it's like a hill up there, but South Mountain in Maryland, it's pretty prominent. And there's only a couple of places, you know, roads back then where you can kind of cross over. So you got to get up and over South Mountain. And again, his execution, he's not like, I mean, I just, it amazes me that he's got this

• 52:53JD Baker?

  plan, but because he keeps it close hold. So as he's sitting there and, you know, study long, study wrong, you know what I mean? Kind of an attitude. So he's get this plan and at first he gets like super excited. But then, you know what I mean, he starts thinking about it like, this is kinda odd. Why would cigars rolled up, dropped conveniently in the road, picked up by a union guy? I think they might have planted this. You know what I mean? So now he's second guessing himself of the, you know, initially, I'm stoked. Then it starts coming into, I think they planted this here.

• 53:37JD Baker?

  So, you know what I mean, now, so that's causing him again. So instead of like being like bam, I'm on it. Now he starts second guessing his own, this own order, 191, is it legit? Like, is this legit? Did they put this down here to lure me in? And so he's second guessing it. So now he's gonna slow roll. And because of his actions, it's giving time for Robert E. Lee to be able to start sending messages, because, you know, I mean, we read the one order, 191, like Jackson and these guys are gone. They're over at the Loudon Heights, they're up the Maryland Heights, they're hitting Harpers Ferry.

• 54:16JD Baker?

  You know, if you look at Hagerstown, I mean, even of Sharpsburg, Maryland, it's over 14 miles away. Now, I know like a lot is like, you know, today, 2022, 14 miles is not a lot. You know what I mean? You know, carrying all your stuff on your back, you know what I mean? And moving 14 miles, and you're gonna try to get like 15,000 people to move, you know, 15 miles? That's a lot. Especially as you're already moving down and you're taking control. Because the beginning of the order, Jackson and them are taking Harpers Ferry. You know what I mean? They're becoming successful. You know what I mean? So they surrender Harpers Ferry, Jackson's got it. And then the next thing you know, like Robert E. Lee is sensing of like,

• 54:59JD Baker?

  dude, little Mac is like, he's out of character. Something's up. And he immediately sends a note to Jackson. Like, hey dude, you know what I mean? Finish up what you got going on down there, man. I need you to, you need to make your way up here to Shepherdstown. Because now Robert E. Lee is, he's got Longstreet, he's got one of his corps. But just like, we kinda talked a little bit earlier, you know what I mean? He needs to get his armies together. I mean, I think, what were the numbers on here? It's like 85,000 versus 40,000. So if you split the 40,000 in half, you're kinda sitting up there with 20,000. Those aren't good odds. You know what I mean? And you're doing an away game. You know what I mean? You're in Maryland. You know what I mean? This is an away game. You

• 55:40JD Baker?

  know what I mean? You don't have the support that you would be, and you've got the Potomac River and your back's up against it. And that's not an easy river to be able to get across if you're gonna try to move 20,000 people, you know what I mean? And you're just gonna ford the river with all that stuff. You know what I mean? Because you don't want to just leave your stuff. So there's a lot of decision making. So Robert E. Lee's gonna sense this, which I think is just incredible. But, and then he's gonna send a note down to, down to Jackson. And so they do secure Harpers Ferry. But because of McClellan's lack of sense of urgency to get stuff done, he's gonna squander like any hopes of getting,

• 56:23JD Baker?

  I mean, if, if he could have got Longstreet without Jackson being there, you know, like if you look at that order, Jackson isn't at the Maryland Heights. He's in Virginia. You know what I mean? So for him to be able, if now you've got him segregated to where you can hit Longstreet all by himself with your entire army.

• 56:43Jocko Willink?

  So it's 80 against 20.

• 56:45JD Baker?

  Yeah. I mean, you're gonna roll him like a wet napkin. And you're gonna push him and you could destroy that corps. You know what I mean?

• 56:53Jocko Willink?

  And then you got.

• 56:54JD Baker?

  Then you got Jackson.

• 56:55Jocko Willink?

  Also a single corps against your entire army.

• 56:57JD Baker?

  Yeah. And then you could cross over into Virginia and you could get Jackson is on a peninsula. He's got some of his guys are over on the Maryland Heights. You know what I mean? So now you could pursue one corps of Jackson. I mean, just, you know, but again, McClellan, you know, the exaggeration of the numbers, how many people are actually out there, false reporting to Lincoln and, and Stanton, Secretary of War and these guys. I mean, like, he just literally just doesn't take action. So he's got this great piece of intelligence that's given to him, and he doesn't use it. This is crazy.

• 57:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it's, it is crazy. So what you end up with for the battle scene here is you end up with Longstreet and Jacks because Jackson does make it up. Now they're they're they sort of form their whole line, the whole army is arrayed at an angle online northeast of Sharpsburg. So you've got 45,000 of them. And then McClellan, because he didn't take action because he kind of stayed put, they end up aligned with their 85,000 troops. McClellan is east of the Antietam River in the Pry House, whereas the troops are west of the Antietam River for the most part. Is that correct?

• 58:22JD Baker?

  The Confederates, yeah, Confederates are on the west side with Longstreet.

• 58:28Jocko Willink?

  But aren't, aren't a lot of the Union troops on the west side of the of the creek of Antietam Creek?

• 58:34JD Baker?

  Not yet. They're, they're gonna make the approach coming from east to west. So first they got to get up and over South Mountain and then they're going to come down into the valley of where like you're coming into Sharpsburg. So if you could imagine that you got Antietam Creek, which then spills into the Potomac River. And it's a, I mean, I don't like Antietam Creek, I mean, it's, it's probably 20 feet wide, maybe, you know, three feet deep, you know what I mean? Some spots deeper than others. I mean, it's not, but it's still a, it's a natural obstacle to kind of, to kind of get through. And so first, you know, they got to get up and over South Mountain. And of course, Robert E. Lee, there's going to be the battle up there of try to get through these passes to get over. And, and Robert

• 59:19JD Baker?

  E. Lee is just, he just needs to slow them down. He needs to give time for Jackson. He needs to get his army back up there. So Jackson, just like you had said, just, just a little bit northeast of Sharpsburg, there's a little church that the church still stands this day. It's up there at Sharpsburg at Antietam at the battlefield that's there. It's the Dunkard Church. It's a little one story white church that sets off the road. I mean, Antietam Battlefield is a beautiful, beautiful setting, farmland, cornfields, just a beautiful part of America. And

• 59:58JD Baker?

  The Pry House, which you're talking about, ends up becoming McClellan's headquarters, is on the east side of Antietam Creek. And it's, it's like one of the nicest houses in the area. You know what I mean? Like, when you roll up to the Pry House, you're kind of like, well, no shit, McClellan came here. You know what I mean? Like, he's not going to go to the double wide down the road. He's taking the Pry House. And that's where he's going to set up shop. Uh, and at, at this time, you know, you got Longstreet and, and Lee are, are over there, you know, over by the Dunker Church. Uh, and you, if you could imagine these, uh, you know, Maryland rolling hills of farmland with little pockets of, of wooded area, uh, you know, so, you know, through there,

• 1:00:42JD Baker?

  you'll hear through the books of like the east woods, the north woods, the cornfield, the sunken road. Uh, it's just like little pockets of farms that are out there, uh, right outside of Sharpsburg. And, uh, and so he sends the note and Jackson, you know, being Jackson, as soon as he gets that, that note from Lee of like, hey dude, hey diddle diddle, get your ass up here. So Jackson immediately turns over command to a subordinate to finish up operations going on there at Harper's Ferry. And Jackson gets on Little Sorrel, it's his horse, it's his favorite horse. He's got a couple of horses, but Little Sorrel's like his favorite one. Uh, just, you know, Little Sorrel used to be fully stuffed in the basement of VMI. Like, you'd go there and pet Little Sorrel.

• 1:01:24Jocko Willink?

  Where is it now?

• 1:01:25JD Baker?

  I, I don't know if they got rid of Little Sorrel. Uh, like, when I was a kid, you could pet the horse, but now, the last time I saw Little Sorrel, he was behind Plexiglas. Cause you could imagine all the kids petting it. It kind of looked like a, like one of those, uh, like those bald cats. But it was like a big bald cat. So he gets on Little Sorrel and makes his way up to, uh, up to Sharpsburg. And when, just to kind of, you know, give the idea of Stonewall Jackson and the Army of Northern Virginia. So you got all these privates that are with, you know, First Corps, and they worked for Longstreet. Great guy. But these privates that are out there on this, you know, this, this formidable line of

• 1:02:07JD Baker?

  defensive posture that you were kind of talking about, some of the privates like look down and over and they see this dude coming up on a horse and one of the private, they're like, dude, it's Jackson. And they're, and, and so they turn and they yell down the line, hey, man, everything's good. Jackson's here. Well, it's just Jackson. He doesn't have any infantry with him, but just the morale of not even his own corps is lifted just because Jackson's there. I mean, that's, that's the kind of, if you're looking at like a, a leader in an organization, you know, you probably, you know, through your time, you know, just like with me in the Marine Corps, there's always like that one dude that shows up and like

• 1:02:51JD Baker?

  everybody just kind of gets excited because, you know, you know, he's here. Yeah. That's what Jackson brings to, and of course, as soon as they get there, you know, it's, it's Lee and Longstreet and they're, they're gonna, they're gonna have a discussion. How's this gonna roll? Because if you look at Antietam Creek, you know what I mean? Antietam Creek, there's, there's three bridges. You know what I mean? Cause like I said, I mean, it's not, it's not a big creek, but you're gonna have to use bridging. You're gonna have to find a ford. Like again, we're talking about moving artillery, logistics, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Infantry weighed right across it. But when they run out of ammo, you know what I mean? They're gonna need a logistical train. So, you know, you, you got, so you've

• 1:03:35JD Baker?

  got the, the lower bridge, a middle bridge and an upper bridge. And it's going from, you know, the lower bridge is down closer towards the Potomac River, you know, towards the south. The middle bridge is just right down from the Pray House. It's an easy straight across. It's the, it's the shortest distance between the two armies is the middle bridge. And then you've got an upper bridge that's gonna have to take you up and around. It's a little bit farther of a movement to get around, but you're gonna end up coming out on the north end of the battlefield. You're gonna be at the north moving south. So that's kind of what McClellan is, is the predicament that he's in is, okay, well, which bridge

• 1:04:18JD Baker?

  am I gonna use? And then what's my battle? How am I gonna, you know, fight this battle? And again, it's all McClellan. And once he makes camp at the Pray House, he stays at the Pray House.

• 1:04:31Jocko Willink?

  And if the Pry House was in some, you know, dominant terrain feature on top of a hill or something with a great view of the battlefield, that might be a good thing. But, but that's not the scenario, right? Pry House is like limited visibility?

• 1:04:44JD Baker?

  Yeah, cuz you know, you, uh, if you look at the battlefield as a whole, and it's not a large battlefield, I mean, like, a lot of people are thinking like this battlefield is just, is huge. Uh, you know, like when we go to Gettysburg, I mean, you know, in the morning when I, I mean, I take folks around, we could almost run the whole battlefield. It's seven miles around the whole thing. Antietam is a little bit smaller than, than even at Gettysburg, if you're putting it into perspective. Uh, and he can maybe see one-third of the battlefield.

• 1:05:19JD Baker?

  From the Pry House.

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  Jackson's troops, do tracks, when do Jackson's troops get up there?

• 1:05:26Jocko Willink?

  Do they get up there?

• 1:05:27JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:27Jocko Willink?

  So they get up there?

• 1:05:28JD Baker?

  Yep, they get up there.

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  And now they're aligned, and now the, you got these two armies on opposite sides of the creek, three bridges, and we're about to go to battle. Um, gonna go to Elijah Hunt Rhodes' book, All for the Union, once again, what he says about this. "We passed through the town and formed in line just beyond. Here I was placed in charge of a plantation with a guard. One of the ladies became insane from fear and excitement. We remained here two days, then went on to Brownsville where our regiment was sent into the mountains after some rebel cavalry, but we did not find them. The mountainside was steep, and we found the climbing hard work.

• 1:06:12Jocko Willink?

  The next morning, the 17th, we saw the Battle of Antietam fought almost at our feet. We could see the long lines of battle, both Union and Rebel, and hear the roar as it came from the field. The battle, the Rebel trains of wagons were moving all day toward the river. At dark, we marched down the mountain and started for the battlefield where we arrived and went into camp. The next morning, we were put in the front lines."

• 1:06:42Jocko Willink?

  I have never in my soldier life seen such a sight. The dead and wounded covered the ground. In one spot, a rebel officer and 20 men lay near a wreck of a battery.

• 1:06:57Jocko Willink?

  It is said Battery A, First Rhode Island Artillery did this work. The rebel sharpshooters and skirmishers were still at work and the bullets whizzed by merrily. At noon, the rebels asked and received permission to bury their dead. And the firing ceased for a while, but commenced again in the afternoon. The second Rhode Island was ordered forward and we charged up a hill and driving the enemy away took possession. Here we lay all night with the bullets flying over us most of the time.

• 1:07:29Jocko Willink?

  The next morning, the enemy shelled our regiment, but it was their last shots. For as we moved forward, they retired and we entered Sharpsburg. The town is all battered to pieces and is not worth much.

• 1:07:49Jocko Willink?

  So. Is that the first time we've read from, from All for the Union? I think it is. Uh, yeah. Elijah Hunt Rhodes is a guy started off as a private in his regiment and ended up the commander of his regiment. And just incredible book. You gotta get it. You know, it's, it's so great to have first person accounts of these things. So All for the Union by Elijah Hunt Rhodes, The Civil War Diary and Letters of Elijah Hunt Rhodes. Uh, you can see that this, this type of combat, you know, when you get entire, entire groups just wiped out by cannon fire. This is a nightmare.

• 1:08:29Jocko Willink?

  The Middle Bridge. So what is, what is? What is it that he decides to do? What is it that McClellan decides to do? He's got, he ends up not using the middle bridge?

• 1:08:39JD Baker?

  Yeah, he's gonna, uh, yeah, to give it, you know, a broad brush for folks when, you know, if you're looking at the battle, we, we explained that the three bridges, he's got the Antietam Creek. Uh, so, and, you know, when you look back at even, uh, with McClellan of how he fought at the peninsula, you know, we talk piecemealing, you know what I mean? Not, you know, congregation. So you're going up against and, and, uh, you know, we already talked about the, the numbers, uh, you know, he definitely has a superior advantage, uh, of numbers over the Army of Northern Virginia. Uh, and he's still going to keep some of his guys back in reserve. So, you know, for the overarching schemes, he's got, uh, he's got Hooker and Mansfield. Uh, you know what I

• 1:09:21JD Baker?

  mean? Both of them, uh, Hooker actually does really well, uh, at, at this battle of Antietam. Mansfield, you know, spoiler alert, he gets killed. Uh, but there, he's going to send those two folks up to the upper bridge. They're gonna, they're gonna leave and they're gonna go all the way out and around. And it's not, uh, too far. It might be like maybe, I mean, I've walked it numerous times. Uh, it's, you know, it's, it's less than seven miles. You know what I mean? But you're gonna go out through the countryside. Uh, so, and the, and the, uh, the ability of the Confederate to have eyes on you, they're not gonna have eyes on you. Like you are far enough away to where you've got landmass and terrain cover to, to hide your movement, uh, coming

• 1:10:05JD Baker?

  around. So he's gonna send Hooker and Mansfield out and around. They're gonna end up over in the, the North Woods, uh, area, uh, of the battle. So they're gonna be on the north end of the battlefield, coming from north down to south. Uh, if you're looking at, at how they're gonna see the Confederacy, uh, on the extreme left of the Confederacy lines is gonna be Jackson, and then on the right. Cause when Jackson gets there, he just ties in to Longstreet's left flank. And, and they're gonna run across an expansion of, like I, I told you, I mean, these are, these are cornfields. These are, it's a farmland. Uh, and- When you, I mean, it's from the Dunker Church, you know, just being there is just unimaginable

• 1:10:48JD Baker?

  because they're going to come out of the wood line and then you're in like, you're in like cornfields, but it's those rolling hills to where, you know what I mean? Like, nobody's shooting at you, not necessarily yet, but when, when you're in range, you're behind folks that are again, you know what I mean? At, at a, at an advantage to where you're moving, they're not stationary and you got, you're coming in for movers and they are going to lay the wood to Hooker and Mansfield as they, they're making their approach towards Dunker Church. At the lower bridge, McClellan thinks that, okay, I'm going to send these folks around.

• 1:11:31JD Baker?

  They're going to hit them from the north, pushing north to south, but I want to be able to not allow the Army of Northern Virginia to escape. So I'm going to take Burnside, you know what I mean? Another one of his commanders and he's going to send Burnside down to the lower bridge. And from the lower bridge from Dunker Church, like if we were standing there, you can't see where the lower bridge is, but the lower bridge down there of what is now named Burnside Bridge, which is probably not a good thing to get that bridge named after you because of what Burnside did at that bridge. The terrain that's there, it's almost as if you could, you come across from the south

• 1:12:14JD Baker?

  heading north and you, you drop down into where you're onto the creek and then the bluffs just go straight up over top of, so it, it's going to be difficult to gain access to, to that bridge of the lower bridge. And of course, the Confederates have to have eyes on those bridges. So basically, Robert E. Lee, when you're looking at like the lower bridge to keep eyes on, because he can't just not have anybody down there. He's going to use it as more like, kind of like an economy of force. He knows that the focus of main effort, we got to deal with this threat coming from the north. We got to deal with Hooker, we got to deal with Mansfield, but because of the terrain... Advantage of the Confederate side, they can use an economy of force that's up there and

• 1:12:58JD Baker?

  just with marksmen and rifles and they're like, are these guys really going to try to come across this bridge?

• 1:13:04Jocko Willink?

  So the Burnside Bridge, just to, just to reiterate, you got this bridge coming across and it basically, as soon as you get across the bridge to the western side where the Confederates are, there's a steep incline.

• 1:13:19JD Baker?

  Oh, it's steep.

• 1:13:20Jocko Willink?

  And so now you're going up against the terrain, you've got channelized area coming across the bridge and then when you get across, you're not safe because now you've got to get uphill and you've got plunging fire from Confederate marksmen and Confederate riflemen. So that's what, that's what Burnside is up against. So how does that play out?

• 1:13:43JD Baker?

  Yeah, so, you know, to try to visualize, so there's like, there's a little ridge line that's just over where Burnside kind of sits and they're in cover. And then when you drop down off of this hill to start heading to the bridge, like it's, it's like a, it's almost like if I was going to, you're running across the football field before you even get to the bridge. Flat, open, no trees. There is still to this day, there's one tree that is, it's called, it's a witness tree that's right there next to, so it's called a witness tree because it was there during the battle. It was photographed at the battle and now it's, it was a sapling, now it's a, it's a large massive tree. So there's not any cover to get to this bridge.

• 1:14:28JD Baker?

  So you've got these folks that are just like, literally you're, you're coming down from cover and you're completely exposed and it's like running across the football field. It's that flat, a football field, just to, and like you were talking about, so it's going to channelize them to come to this bridge. So the Confederates are up at the high ground, you know what I mean? And, and they're watching, so you're within range as soon as you drop down onto that football field. And then these guys are just gonna start laying the wood because they know where you're going. So it's not like they gotta worry about you zigging and zagging and are they gonna run that way? They're all running for the bridge. So these guys are just focusing and you know, when you look at like, uh, like a lot of the folks, like even though the weapon

• 1:15:13JD Baker?

  system, you know, somebody got, they have rifled muskets at this time. Uh, and even the guys with some of the smooth board, when you look at the, the ability of the marksmen, uh, especially in the army of Northern Virginia back there, like back then, like everybody in the south had a gun. And as soon as you were raised as a kid, you used that gun because they all hunt. Well, you know, so it wasn't like nowadays, your dad didn't give you like, hey, here's a box of 20. You know what I mean? Go out there and, you know, get us a deer. Like you get one round and are we gonna eat tonight? You know what I mean? And, you know, so there's a different, the ability of the marksmen back then are, in my opinion, they're

• 1:15:53JD Baker?

  better than what we are today. Uh, just because that's, it's a way of life, uh, for the, for the Confederacy and the Union has some really good shooters as well. You know, the famed Burdan sharp shooters, huge. You know, you got boys from Maine, uh, you know what I mean? New Hampshire area up there. Like these guys, they can bring the wood. Everybody thinks, oh, it's a bunch of New Yorkers from the city. You know what I mean? No, it's not. You know what I mean? Wisconsin, yeah, those are farm boys. They know how to shoot. Uh, so you know, but if you've got that kind of advantage of where you're in a stable, prone position and you got guys running and you know exactly where they're gonna come to,

• 1:16:34JD Baker?

  to that bridge. And, and the problem of, of, you know, it's, it's like Burnside is looking through life through a straw. You know what I mean? Like when you talk about detach, like he doesn't, he doesn't detach. Because like literally like maybe less than a half of a mile from that bridge, there's another Ford. Like you don't have to use the bridge, brother. There's a Ford right down from the bridge. But he's looking through life through a straw and he just keeps sending folks to the bridge. And if you could imagine, yeah. After a while, is Burnside gonna get folks to the bridge and take them up? Of course he is, because it's just a matter of mass of numbers.

• 1:17:19JD Baker?

  But the loss of life that they're gonna take to gain that bridge and the amount of time. You know what I mean? And that's all the economy force is because Robert E. Lee's got to deal with Hooker and Mansfield at the north. That's the big threat. And then he's gonna have some folks down there at the lower bridge and use them as an economy of force. Once he's dealing with Mansfield and Hooker, then he can detach and send folks down there to support the lower bridge. So that's basically what Robert E. Lee's doing. And he's been able to hold his own. And again, like this wasn't his plan. Like, he's still a little baffled of like, what are we doing in Sharpsburg?

• 1:18:03JD Baker?

  And why are we at battle? Because he didn't know that the other coach found his playbook. You know what I mean? He just knows that this isn't working out well. And whatever McClellan is up to, man, I just need to, I need to get us out of this predicament. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:19Jocko Willink?

  General Lee always liked to pick where he fought.

• 1:18:22JD Baker?

  Always.

• 1:18:23Jocko Willink?

  And he didn't do that here.

• 1:18:24JD Baker?

  No.

• 1:18:28Jocko Willink?

  Eventually, the Confederate forces start to backpedal, right?

• 1:18:35JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:18:36Jocko Willink?

  Which you would think that would translate to a victory. Like, hey, we got them to backpedal. That's a victory. But because of this persistent effort, I mean, for instance, for Burnside trying to get across that bridge, the amount of life that they lost, it's like you couldn't even raise your hand and say, we won, because it's a disaster.

• 1:19:03JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:06Jocko Willink?

  And this ends up the bloodiest single day in American history. From the Union forces, 2,100 killed, 9,550 wounded, 750 missing or captured. And from the Confederates, 1,550 killed.

• 1:19:30Jocko Willink?

  7,750 wounded, 1,020 captured, missing. Those, I mean, that is shocking. Those are shocking numbers. And all of that is for what is pretty much considered a draw. No progress was made in the war.

• 1:19:54Jocko Willink?

  No progress, just carnage.

• 1:19:59Jocko Willink?

  And that carnage would continue. And we will continue on the next Civil War excursion. So, thanks for listening. If you want to support, go to jocko store.com, jocko fuel.com, origin usa.com, echelonfront.com, and theomna.com.

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is JD and Jocko, out.