Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion With JD Baker Pt.2: The Battles Have Begun

Just the beginning of the many battles. Battle of Shilo and more. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion, number two, with J D Baker and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, J D.

• 0:10JD Baker?

  Good evening, Jocko.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  Soldiers of the Army of the Mississippi, I have put you in motion to offer battle to the invaders of your country. With the resolution and discipline and valor becoming men fighting, as you are, for all worth living or dying for, you can but march to a decisive victory over the agrarian mercenaries sent to subjugate you and to despoil you of your liberties, your property, and your honor. Remember the precious stake involved. Remember the dependence of your mothers, your wives, your sisters, and your children on the result. Remember

• 0:57Jocko Willink?

  the fair, broad, abounding land and the happy homes that would be desolated by your defeat.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  The eyes and hopes of eight millions of people rest upon you. You are expected to show yourselves worthy of your lineage, worthy of the women of the South, whose noble devotion in this war has never been exceeded in any time. With such incentives to brave deeds, and with the trust that God is with us, your generals will lead you confidently to the combat assured of success.

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is General Albert Sidney Johnson, giving a speech, a speech that was given to each regiment as they approached the Battle of Shiloh, which is gonna be kind of the first really big battle in the Civil War.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  JD, how do we get there? Last episode, we, we left off after Fort Sumter. And Lincoln is thinking, and I guess it's a, it's a fair assessment to say that, that Fort Sumter was kinda like a 9/11 moment, September 11th moment for the North. Cause 1860, the army, you know, you, you talked about this the last, the last episode. Army was tiny, really. I mean, in 1860, there was 16,000 total men and officers on the roll. Only 14,000 of them were present for duty. There was five general officers total.

• 2:54Jocko Willink?

  Most, most people were, most of the soldiers were posted west of the Mississippi. There's only 16 companies east of the Mississippi. This is just, so in 1860, the military is just absolutely tiny. Well, how many people are stationed on Camp Pendleton, California?

• 3:13JD Baker?

  Thousands.

• 3:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, how about, how about, uh, any, what's, what's, what Marine Corps base did you spend the most time on?

• 3:20JD Baker?

  Uh, Lejeune.

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  How many people on Lejeune, you think?

• 3:24JD Baker?

  Oh, at least 35,000 folks.

• 3:26Jocko Willink?

  So in one base, there's twice as many people are there as there are soldiers before the war kicked off. So there, September 11th happens, which is Fort Sumter. And, and now, now the, now it's on. Now that being said, and I'd say this about September 11th too. People think, okay, well, the war is gonna kick off, but the war, what are we talking? Maybe a few months, four or five months, maybe to go down south, you know, beat back the Confederacy. We'll take everything back over. Is that what we're thinking up north?

• 4:04JD Baker?

  Oh yeah, I mean, this is, uh, yeah, probably if you're, if you're looking at it on that aspect, it's like a 90 day, like, hey, we're just gonna, it's a 90 day, like, hey, man. Uh, you know, I could imagine, you know, with, with the, the amount of, of, of sources available, like going through there. I mean, when you say like five general officers, there's probably like five general officers sharing a cubicle right now in the Pentagon in 2022. You know what I mean? Like that just always is shocking. So when you're looking at the, at the professional soldier, uh, you know, it, it does take a lot, you know, you get done with the Mexican-American war. Yeah, everything is out West because of Western expansion. So they, they've got a lot of these armies and stuff and companies that are out West.

• 4:48JD Baker?

  Uh, and you know, it's, it's a lot dealing with the Native Americans, uh, and protection, uh, for these folks that are, are moving West with Western expansion. Uh, if you're looking at the aspects of, of the size of the army and, and the comparison of, of Pearl Harbor, uh, even Abraham Lincoln is kinda looking like, I mean, he, he's wanting them to bombard Fort Sumner because now that's gonna give him northern buy-in. Like, you know what I mean?

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  So he had a little bit of that, uh, he wanted that, uh, it's not a false flag attack. He wanted it to get attacked so he could use it as some propaganda to start getting some troops massed up.

• 5:30JD Baker?

  Right. Cause you know, I kinda look at it as if, okay, you've got all these states and they decide that they're just gonna secede from the Union. So we're all, yeah. So South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, you know, Virginia, they're all gonna pop smoke. And as President of the United States, you're like, well, we're gonna stand up an army and we're gonna go down there and, and we're gonna bring them back into the Union. And people are like, well, they, they haven't, they haven't really done anything.

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, some dude in New Hampshire is like, bro, I'm not going anywhere. What are you talking about? They wanna leave? I'm up here. I got work to do.

• 6:00JD Baker?

  Yeah. You know what I mean? And they haven't really done anything. They're just talking right now. You know what I mean? So it's more like, oh, the states, they're just saying that they're not really gonna leave and, but they are, they're, they're like leaving, but No shots have been fired yet. So it's almost like the same thing before we can, you know, even when you look at the Mexican-American war, I mean, they sent Zachary Taylor down there to kind of monkey around the Rio Grande. They pop a couple of shots, they send a memo back up, which was, you know, up, up to DC, let the President of the United States, hey, man, we're under fire. Go to Congress, declare war. Boom. We're in the Mexican-American war. So somebody's got to pull the trigger here. You know what I mean? If, you know, like,

• 6:45JD Baker?

  obviously, there was problems that were known prior to September 11th, that, that there was bad people. You know what I mean? That's probably a fair thing to say that in the United States, we knew that there were individuals outside the United States that wanted to cause harm. But as the United States, we didn't just go over there and, and just, you know, raise an army and invade their country. They, they, they've just done a lot of talk. You know what I mean? And they haven't really threatened American soil yet. So as the president, you kind of got to get some buy-in. So as soon as, you know, the old man pulls the

• 7:25JD Baker?

  lanyard, you know what I mean? Dude, we just got northern buy-in. Because they're like, wait a minute. They just bombarded American soldiers at a federal fort in the harbor of Charleston, South Carolina. Yeah, we're done with this little Confederacy thing you guys think you're going to plan up, up there. So now, now we're in. So you can see that, you know, as Lincoln being the President of the United States, now when he goes to the, his, his northern folks, and he's looking for a, a raising of, of arms to come join into this fight, he's going to get a lot more buy-in. So, so that's basically what's

• 8:06JD Baker?

  happening. So, you know, Lincoln, you know what I mean? Is, yeah, Sumner is, is his, that's his 9/11.

• 8:12Jocko Willink?

  Now, he's, like you said, like a 90-day, okay, it's going to take 90 days. We're going to go down there, we're going to kick the shit out of some people. It's all going to be good. We'll come back home. So their, their primary initial raising of troops is like National Guard guys, right? Bringing guys on for like a 90-day enlistment type thing?

• 8:31JD Baker?

  Yeah. You know what I mean? Because, you know, the whole... You know what I mean? The militia that, you know, that has been in existence, hell, it's still in existence today. You know what I mean? You're going to stand at the right to bear arms. You know what I mean? Was literally like meant something back then. Meaning, yeah, okay, you got the rifle hanging over top of the fireplace and you use it during hunting season. But if there's a call to arms, you're a part of the militia. Everybody's from the same little hometown and you're going to stand up and you're going to join in with the company. And then that company's got a regiment in the States and they're going to send these folks down south to kind of quell this insurgency that's kind of taking

• 9:16JD Baker?

  place. So, yeah, I mean, 90 days max. You know what I mean? But then you got to look at like moving bodies. Yeah. Okay. How do you move them? You know, it's either by water or it's by rail, or they're going to walk. And then they got to get their stuff. And then you got to like have stuff to supply them because you're going to have to feed them. You're going to have to clothe them. So, you know, it's a lot more, you know what I mean? When you kind of look at the aspects of, hey, we're going to stand up an army. You know, even even a small army. And then you have to look at it as like, like you'd said earlier, like the dude in New Hampshire, he's like, dude, I got a job. Like, you know what I mean? I run a gym in SoCal, man. I got to be at work tomorrow. You know what

• 9:58JD Baker?

  I mean? I got like nine kids at home. Like, you know what I mean? What I'm just going to pop smoke. We're going to go down there. But but then again, you also, you got to look at on the aspect of like the nine 11 of like, I mean, you remember the recruiting offices, you know, in the United States military after nine, we were not having a recruiting problem.

• 10:17Jocko Willink?

  No. Freaking Tim Kennedy was like, he went down to the recruiting officer September 12th and like the line was around the block, you know? And that's just one example. And that's in California, right? That like it was on.

• 10:28JD Baker?

  Yeah. And you remember like all the guys that like, because you and I served in the in the same timeframe of like all the guys that that came in like, and so they missed Desert Storm. And then there's like this dry spell. You know what I mean?

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  That's me.

• 10:43JD Baker?

  Yeah, there's like these little kind of hot pocket things that are kind of happening around the world. But if you're not on a specific unit, a specific team at a specific time, you're just going to miss it. And, you know, so now you got these guys that are like, well, it doesn't look like anything's going to happen in the next four years. I'm going to get out and I'm going to go back home, you know, go to college or just get a job. And I'm kind of done with the military thing and then bam nine 11 hits and then these guys are like, dude, I want back in. You know what I mean? So now that's even a problem. And it's like, dude, I got skill sets. Okay. Well, you left as a sergeant. You know what I mean? We can't break, dude, I don't care if you bring me back as a private rifleman. You know what I mean? I just want to be on the big bird that's going to cross the pond.

• 11:25JD Baker?

  And we're going to bring the wood to these people that, that did these events in, in New York and the fields in Pennsylvania and, and to the Pentagon. So I could imagine, you know, back then, when the word got out, uh, you know what I mean? Of looking at the aspects of they just bombed, you know what I mean? A federal installation. But that's the, that's the same as if it would happen today. I mean, there would be a call to arms. The President of the United States is, no matter who the president is, like you're going to get backed by the American people. They're, they're going to back you at this event. This is, this is unjust. Um, so yeah, when we left off the last time and then you look at those, you know, the totals that are there. So, you know, they're, and, and I wouldn't

• 12:09JD Baker?

  even, I, I think that, you know, you and I, we're using the references of the National Guard, but these guys aren't even at that level. Like, these are just like novice, novice guy, you know, they, they, they just come out and it, you know, it's kind of cool to be, it's a drinking club. It's like a volunteer fire department. You know what I mean? Like, it's a cool place to hang out, but you know what I mean? We're really not going to go to war. It's just fun to go and, you know, I get away from the wife and the kids for a couple of days and you know what I mean? And, uh, so I'm going to come out. Plus you could imagine, you know, if you think this is going to be like a quickie, like you don't want to be the only guy that hung back. You know what I mean? Like when everybody's flying the flags and stuff and, and they're like, what's, what's, where's Fred?

• 12:52JD Baker?

  Yeah. Where's Fred? You know, and, and he's trying, it's, it's kind of like, uh, you know, one of my favorite movies is Old Yeller. Uh, I don't know if you ever, you ever saw the movie, but, uh, you know, Old Yeller, when that one dude decides that he's going to hang back to kind of take care of the, the women folk and the, and the farm. Everybody's kind of looking at that guy like, really dude? And even the women are looking at him like, dude, we're good. You can go. But he doesn't want to go. You know what I mean? So he's going to make it seem like he's, he needs to stay back.

• 13:26Jocko Willink?

  Man, nothing will ever beat the freaking World War I in England where if a guy was like a military aged male and he wasn't and he wasn't in a freaking uniform, the the women would give him a white flower. That was like the coward.

• 13:41JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 13:42Jocko Willink?

  Free. That's how you peer pressure your countrymen into going and getting it on. That's a World War I, right? This is where you know, like, your chances of survival are minimal if you're gonna go over the lot, over the top over there. But that's, you know, you don't even necessarily need that. The peer pressure's gonna come.

• 14:02JD Baker?

  Well, it's like, I mean, you even, when you read the the letter that was read prior to the Battle of Shiloh, I said, that's exactly World War I. I mean, when you go back through and you read, you know, what he's calling out of the the the women, you know what I mean, of of who you're defending and and who you're standing up for. I mean, he's, he's calling them out, like, you know, why you're here and who you represent. That speech that that's written out prior to that is is that's a, that's a pretty good one.

• 14:34Jocko Willink?

  So, so the North kind of is putting it together, and they're probably of the mind that, you know, we're gonna kind of get this done pretty quick. One of the first larger battles, the first Battle of Manassas, which is in Manassas, Virginia, the the Union calls us the Battle of Bull Run. The the Union thinks this is gonna be a pretty easy victory for them rolling down there. It doesn't work out that way.

• 15:05JD Baker?

  No, yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's, you know, the Manassas is like a a hop, skip, and a jump just south of DC. I mean, you cross over the Potomac, you come down, the Manassas Battlefield Park, beautiful part of Virginia that's in there. That same guy that we kind of talked about before with Beauregard and Anderson down there. So now Beauregard is up in Virginia.

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  So Beauregard was the guy that was commanding the the Confederate troops at Fort Sumter during that initial attack. So now this guy Beauregard, who had just attacked his professor.

• 15:45Jocko Willink?

  His professor at West Point, now he's up at Manassas and who's he fighting against up there?

• 15:52JD Baker?

  God McDowell.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  Who's one of his classmates.

• 15:55JD Baker?

  Yeah, they're classmates together. You know what I mean? That would be like me going against some of my classmates of 2005. You know what I mean? It's just unimaginable. Now you've got these two folks and, and a lot of the folks back then, you know, in some of the readings, when you look at the, at the battle of, of it taking place, you know, but being novice, so you've got this voluntary force of a bunch of folks that are kind of coming in and it's not, it's not the professional military that we kind of have of today. You know what I mean? So now you've got like a slim picket of officers. Well, a lot of the officers that resigned their commission after the Mexican-American war now are all trying to get back in.

• 16:40JD Baker?

  So, you know, so before the battle on both sides of the fence, they're, you know, of course, you know, you're a West Point grad, you know, coming in, that, that's going to weigh heavy on selection of officers. And then you kind of look at them of like, okay, well, what did the guy do in the Mexican-American war? Okay, he was a young officer. So now you're kind of like taking like a, a young Marine lieutenant or lieutenant JG in the Navy, now we're going to make him a general. Okay. So the last time you were in charge of like 30 people, now we're going to put you in charge of like a couple of thousand people to the upwards of, you know, you've got divisions,

• 17:22JD Baker?

  you've got brigades, you've got, you know, a regiment, you know, a regiment is set out to be somewhere around like a thousand, you know what I mean? If you've got a thousand folks that are in there and then you've got brigades, you've got the division, and then you've got corps, and then you've got like an army, you know what I mean? So when you're looking at like an army, yeah, I mean, it could be 60,000 people. Well, when you look at some of these guys, they haven't been in charge for 60,000 people. I mean, you know what I mean? So, you know, like you said before, like this is a company that is growing. At an extreme rate and they're coming from all over both the north and the south. I mean, you've got folks, just like we had said earlier, that have they've never left their state

• 18:04JD Baker?

  before. So you've got folks coming as far as, you know what I mean, from Mississippi and Alabama that are heading up into Virginia. You got folks from Connecticut, you got Maine, you got Wisconsin. I mean, you got Ohio and these folks are trying to make their way into the Capitol. And then you've got a lot of these guys that are coming in there looking for positions. And a lot of them are immediately coming in and of course, they want to be a general officer. Like, why not just, you know, if you're gonna go, go big. You know what I mean? What do you, okay, you were a lieutenant JD, now you want to be a general? Yep, that's right, man. Make me a general. And it's also because of, you know, if you're

• 18:45JD Baker?

  thinking that the war is going to be short, now you've got a guy that you had spoke on the last one, when you talked about Sherman down at LSU. You know, well, Sherman's down there, well, Sherman's got a different vision of this 90 day war kind of thing. I mean, even Winfield Scott, you know what I mean, thought that it would take, you know, what was it like over 60,000 people, you know what I mean, to be able to stand up? I mean, that's a lot of people to come in and he thought it was going to take a couple of

• 19:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like five times bigger than than what they had in 1860.

• 19:17JD Baker?

  Yeah. I mean, so he's going to increase size by at least five times and he thinks it's going to even take a couple of years. So this is, you know, your senior member, I mean, if you're looking at it of like folks with military experience in the United States at that time, like Winfield Scott's the guy. You know what I mean? Zachary Taylor, him, they were both down the Mexican-American war, but you know, Winfield Scott's the guy. He stayed a professional soldier, very well respected in the administration. But then when you look at the folks that are that are going to come in for this first battle, they even talked of like, you know, like local folks from DC, like getting in their carriages and stuff and like following the army down because they want to go spectate.

• 20:01Jocko Willink?

  Let's go watch.

• 20:01JD Baker?

  Yeah, like this is the state fair. Like, you know what I mean? We're going to go watch. And it's just gonna be, the unions gonna get routed. And then they're gonna get pushed back into DC. And that's not gonna look well, you know, for the president or for the union. And because you're looking at recruiting aspects of it, I mean, how's it looking on the Confederacy side? Because they're gonna move the capital of the Confederacy out of Montgomery and they're gonna move it into Richmond, Virginia. And when you move it up into Richmond, Virginia, I mean, the distance between, you know, I live like smack dab, Spotsylvania, Virginia, Fredericksburg is like literally in the middle

• 20:44JD Baker?

  between DC and Richmond. So now you've got these two capitals that are literally, you know what I mean? A hop, skip and a jump from each other. And the battle is gonna take place just north of Fredericksburg. So it's gonna be like in between the Rappahannock River and where the Potomac River is, like right up in there of that Okaquan Fairfaxy kinda area. So that's the area we're talking about.

• 21:14JD Baker?

  And the, the Union is gonna get defeated in the first battle of Manassas or Bull Run of how you're looking at it.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  So the Union kinda realizes like, okay, we're gonna need more people.

• 21:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay. And what's interesting, we talked about this a little bit on the last one. You got Baltimore, who is, you know, obviously in Maryland, which was, which is a slave state, was a slave state before they joined the Union or stay with the Union. But as the Union is trying to ship people down to fight, Baltimore is like trying to stop it from happening.

• 21:57JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah, I mean, like rioting, they're gonna come and, you know, so they got you. So here you are, you know, you're, you're riding on a, on a rail car, you're all excited, you're coming from Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, you name it. And then you get down to Baltimore and like those people aren't happy out there that we're coming through. Through Balt, so they're trying to stop the progress. You know what I mean? Talk about bringing friction in, you know, you've, you're learning that you've got to get people, and a lot of people, and you got to start standing up armies that are going to have to deal with this, this insurgency that's taking over in the Confederacy. And so these people are coming in. So yeah, the folks in Baltimore, like Maryland, it

• 22:41JD Baker?

  is a slave state and it's a split state. You got to look at it as the people in Baltimore are looking like their livelihoods are going to be affected. Like if this gets abolished, like we're going to have to start making another plan because now we got to like, what are we going to like start paying people? You know what I mean? Like, what do you mean? I can't have slavery. I can't just work them. I can't own these. I mean, so this is a huge shift to a lot of folks in the United States. I mean, not to, not that it's even close to comparison, but like, you know, you and I were both working at the same time and we were, you know, getting ready for Gettysburg and we have a pandemic hit and we got to go

• 23:20JD Baker?

  like online. I mean, that was a huge shift in America. I mean, it was a new way of thinking. So this is something that that's a huge way that's being pushed by the Union and Baltimore's is giving resistance. So now they're going to have to start moving some of the troops through at night. I mean, now it's got to be timed. And, you know, I always kind of look back at it as, okay, so here you are, you know, you, you think you're working in, it's, it's like when, when George Washington decided that, hey, we're going to stand up a Continental Army, we're going to go against, you know, like the Crown and England, but you still have loyalists that are in and amongst you, living next door to you. You

• 24:04JD Baker?

  know what I mean? So now you've got these folks that, you know, you're in Maryland, you're in Pennsylvania. Well, you've got Southern sympathizers that are living amongst you. So anything they can do to disrupt that machine as well.

• 24:19JD Baker?

  And then you've got, you know, folks that, okay, who's going to run these armies? And as they come in, and of course, they're all kind of jockeying for, for general officers. The, the one that I'll, I'll bring up just because I think is, is super cool is, uh, you know, when you talked about Sherman. So Sherman comes in because he's a, he's a West Pointer. He fought in the Mexican-American war and everybody's going in straight for general. They want that. And Sherman comes out and they're like, hey, dude, what'd you, what'd you get? He's like, yeah, I'm a Colonel. They're like, dude, man, you could have like easily gotten general. He goes, I'll earn general. Check. You know what I mean? Sherman's a different, you know, of course, then everybody, you know,

• 25:03JD Baker?

  they're going to call him crazy, of course, because he's, he's not fitting the mold as everybody else. You know, he's making those kinds of statements down at, at modern day LSU. He's speaking truth. I mean, he's, he's has a vision and sees what takes place. So Sherman's a different kind of guy.

• 25:21Jocko Willink?

  He's got an elevated view of, an elevated view of what's going on for sure.

• 25:26JD Baker?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  Um, so as these, you know, as these troops are now kind of moving into position throughout from the north towards the south, uh, you know, you got, you, you got skirmishes happening. You got, you know, people running into Union troops. You got resistance, uh, kind of like chance contacts going on. Cavalry will be getting into engagements, you know, as they're out doing scout. They'll get some resistance. And then you get to the Battle of Seven Pines. This is May, May 31st to June 1st, 1862. Uh, General McClellan. Called little, he's popular, Little Mac. Why does everybody like General McClellan?

• 26:12JD Baker?

  Uh, well, you know, McClellan, uh, calling him Little Mac. So he, he gets, uh, he gets, uh, you know, general officer, and he's going to be the, uh, the, the commander of the Army of the Potomac. Uh, you know, when you look at the Army of the Potomac, uh, it's right there in Virginia, the Potomac River. Um, if you look at like different armies or different organizations, the Army of the Potomac is the 100% manned. They get the best gear and equipment. You know what I mean? They're, they're, they're like varsity. They're, they're getting all this stuff. You know what I mean? The guys that are standing up armies out west, they're JV. You know what I mean? They're, you know, they're not getting the attention because

• 26:55JD Baker?

  he's right there with the capital. I mean, he's right there, uh, with the president. He's got Winfield Scott. He's, I mean, he is, he's in the mix. And, you know, when you look at, at Little Mac, the, the interesting thing about McClellan, when he becomes the Army Commander, uh, of the Potomac, of course, he's got to come up with a plan. Uh, and, and McClellan, one, if you kind of look at it, McClellan was a status quo guy. He was one of those guys that kind of believed of, hey dude, just let them do what they've been doing. Like, you know what I mean? Which-

• 27:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's an interesting, you know, even we were talking about people in Baltimore. Status quo was a thing. Like, there's not too many people in America right now. You say, hey, are you conservative or are you liberal? There's not too many people say, hey, I kind of like, it's okay the way it is. You know, the conservatives are saying, we gotta bring it back to this. Liberals are saying, we gotta change that. A legitimate kind of political viewpoint at this time period was like, hey, let's just keep it what we got. Just hold what you got. Just status quo. And so you get these people that are status quo and, and Little Mac being one of them. Hey, real quick, Army of the Potomac, this is just a, a naming convention that, that we need to cover right now because

• 28:09Jocko Willink?

  it can get confusing. The, the Union armies are named after rivers. That's the, that's what, that's their naming convention. So you're going to hear a bunch of these different armies and sometimes it can get confusing because you've got rivers in America that are called things like the Mississippi and called things like the Tennessee River. So it can get real confusing real quick. What are the, what are Confederate, um, armies named after?

• 28:33JD Baker?

  Like the, you know, the Army of Northern Virginia, the Army of Mississippi, meaning like of, not the-

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  So it's gonna get a little confusing if you don't pay attention to that, but just remember that the the northern armies are named after rivers. So Army of the Potomac, um, so General McClellan, he's, he's, I cut you off when you were saying that he's kind of a status quo guy. Not looking to be super dynamic.

• 29:02JD Baker?

  No, uh, not at all. Uh, you know, and, and I, I think with, with him, he's got, uh, he's got political views. I mean, he ends up running for president in 64. You know what I mean? A lot of these guys, uh, you know, the, uh, I, I guess I should use the term whiffm. Uh, you know what I mean? If you make me a general officer, a whiffm is, is what's in it for me after, uh, the thing. So a lot of these guys are coming with a, a little bit of an agenda of like, okay, yeah, hey, if I join up, one, uh, you know, it's, it's this, it's this civil war that takes place. I'm a general officer. If I serve with distinction, you know what I mean? I, I might gain something out of it. Uh, you know, in the end, uh, and

• 29:44JD Baker?

  I, I would say that that plays a bigger part on the Union side than it does on the Confederate side. Like the Confederate generals that are down there, they just want to be left alone and let us run our own. We, we're done with this United States thing with the Union. We're creating our own country and we just want you guys to just leave us alone and let us just keep doing what we're doing, kind of a thing. So there's like, there's, you know, I mean, when Jefferson Davis is unanimously picked to be the president of the Confederacy, it's not like they didn't even have it. Like there's no election. Like, you know, does Robert E. Lee's like, man, I think that, you know, if I have served with distinction, I'll be president of the Confederacy. Like there's nobody kind of jockeying, uh, to, to

• 30:26JD Baker?

  get rid of Davis. They, they just wanna, hey, man, we're just, you know, we're gonna form these states, uh, in the Confederacy, uh, with Davis and we're gonna keep running how we're running. We don't need this big federal government thing kind of telling us how we're, how we're gonna run and how our states are gonna be ran. We're all gonna be a coalition of states and, and we're gonna run it the way we see fit. So when McClellan gets these aspects, you know, and if you look at the, at the map, like I said, again, like back during the, the Civil War, uh, anytime we kind of look at, at a general officer, uh, there's a lot of folks, there's statements that are made that, uh, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.

• 31:10JD Baker?

  Especially at that level, because you logistically have to move 120,000 people and all their stuff. So, you know, back then, you're either gonna walk them, you're gonna put them on a train, or you're gonna put them on a boat. And we already talked about, you know, so you got the distance that's coming in. So after the first Battle of Manassas, you've got this McClellan, you know, Taggert, McDowell's out, you know what I mean? And he's gonna take this formed army of the Potomac, and he's got to, he's got to brief his plan to the boss. So he's gonna do, he's gonna do a peninsula campaign, which that's where

• 31:49JD Baker?

  we get to the, the Seven Pines down there. So the peninsula, you know, Norfolk, because you either got two choices. You either get on the Telegraph Road, which is a modern day Route One that runs from DC. Of course, now we got 95. So it's basically like if you put it in today's terms, we're gonna hop on 95, and in two hours, we're gonna be in Richmond. So we can either go over by land, or we can just swoop in and around, put everybody on a boats. We can float them down the Potomac, out into the bay, and come right, I mean Norfolk, you know, phenomenal naval base, and then just come right up the peninsula. So the distance, and then you gotta look at like, okay, logistically, how am I gonna support these folks? You know what I mean? Well, logistically, yeah, I

• 32:33JD Baker?

  mean, we've got a navy, you can just logistically support by, by water. You know what I mean? It's easily supported, logistically. If you look at it on the other aspects, the river ways, when you get down like to the Rappahannock River, if we talk about like Fredericksburg, if you blow the rail line, which the rail line are blown in Fredericksburg, you know what I mean? Now you're gonna have to offload everything. It's logistically gonna be a lot harder moving that much stuff. I mean, if you look at us even today in the military, I mean, we move a lot by naval. I mean, we can move cities worth of stuff. So he's gonna make this decision, he's gonna go down, and he's gonna fight the peninsula campaign.

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  This is McClellan.

• 33:15JD Baker?

  McClellan.

• 33:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Says, alright, I'm gonna go fight this peninsula campaign.

• 33:20JD Baker?

  Put all the guys, bunch of guys, put them on boats. We're gonna float down. We're gonna hop off. We're gonna fight this peninsula campaign and it's a short A to B distance, right up, cross over the Chickahominy and bam, man, we're up the James and we are in Richmond. We'll overthrow the Capitol. Easy peasy. War's over, man. You know what I mean? We just took the Capitol. Uh, well, you know, there's a problem. The Confederates don't want to give it up that easy. Uh, so, you know, they get down there and then they get into what, the distinctive battle of the seven pines. Um, that is also when, you know, so Lee, uh, at that time, at the beginning of the war, Lee is a advisor. He's a military

• 34:03JD Baker?

  advisor to Jefferson Davis. He's not a combatant commander at the time. Uh, due to attrition, uh, general officer, another Johnson goes down. Uh, his number two guy XO is Gustavus W. Smith, which of course, everybody remembers old Gustavus. Uh, he was in command for about 24 hours because, you know, as soon as Davis is like, hey dude, what are you gonna do? He's like, oh, I'm gonna need more resources. Yeah. We don't have any more resources. That's not a plan. You know what I mean? Bobby, you're in. Uh, and Robert E. Lee steps on the field, uh, to take command of the Army of Northern Virginia. Uh, he had already established a relationship with, with Jackson, Stonewall Jackson. Uh, and he's gonna, Stonewall Jackson, you know, so he's got this threat coming in on peninsula. So of course, he's

• 34:47JD Baker?

  gonna take this guy. And when you have a nickname like Stonewall, you know what I mean? That's like, that's like a pretty good one to get. Uh, you know what I mean? So they're gonna send Jackson and Robert E. Lee's gonna send him up into the valley. So he's gonna do, there's the valley campaign that kinda goes on. Well, you know, Lincoln's number one worry is like DC, protecting Baltimore DC. I mean, it's, it's huge protection of DC. Well, you get Jackson up there running around, you know what I mean? Nothing safe. Nothing safe with Jackson. Uh, and he's proven it because he's sending other armies out there to try to, you know, Banks and some of these guys are trying to intercept Jackson and he's just, Jackson's foot mobility of infantry is just unmatched in the valley.

• 35:34JD Baker?

  It's just, it's amazing what Jackson's doing out there. The amount of movement with Jackson and he's winning. So the morale of underneath Stonewall Jackson is very high because everybody wants to play for a winning team. I mean, Jackson's becoming very popular. And he's, and you know, just a little back history, a little bit, you know, so Jackson, he was a, he was a professor. He taught at the Virginia Military Institute prior to the war. And as an instructor, like, you know, today, like, you know, you got kids, I got kids, they go to college and stuff. They got that ratemypprofessor.com stuff, you know, and the kids can like take a course and JD's the course and then they can, they

• 36:18JD Baker?

  can go on and tell JD, oh, he sucked. I didn't like him. He was this bad. If they had ratemypprofessor.com at VMI, Jackson would have been the most hated professor at VMI.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  And why is that?

• 36:30JD Baker?

  He just, he just wasn't very well liked. He was, I mean, nothing, nothing wrong with it. He was Presbyterian, extremely religious. You know, he, he very strict. And I think because of some of his upbringing, he, he didn't, he kept a lot of information close hold. He didn't trust a lot of other people. And, you know, needless to say, that could be from a lot of the peer, kind of peer leadership, you know what I mean? He was, if he's not one of the guys that is not partaking in the, you know, the barbecues on the weekend,

• 37:13JD Baker?

  you know what I mean? Sundays, he's devoted to church, family, that kind of stuff. So, you know, he's one of those guys that just doesn't fit in with the, the cool club kids, you know what I mean? That are doing stupid stuff. But when Stonewall shows up, he's going to go to work. And when he goes to work, he's, you know, you're gonna, if you're working for Stonewall Jackson, you know, you're gonna get up in the morning, you're gonna get on the road, you're gonna face to the right, you're gonna hike anywhere between 20 to 25 miles, there's gonna be a gunfight at the end. And he's gonna bring the wood, and he's gonna win. And then you're gonna hike back out. I mean, there's a, that valley campaign of the movements that that guy's doing and around the valley, you know what I mean? Like, we had talked, you know, kind of before the terrain of, you know, looking at some of the hills and

• 37:58JD Baker?

  the Shenandoah Valley area. It's, and these guys are like no shoes, you know what I mean? Like, they're doing some serious movements. And they got their home on their back, and they're moving it around, and they're winning. And so Lee is gonna send Jackson up in the valley because he's, he knows that if Jackson goes up, and then the word's gonna get out to Abraham Lincoln, he's gonna be like, whoa, okay, Stonewall's in the valley, is he, is he coming up the valley? And is he gonna make a threat towards Washington DC? So if I'm the commander in chief, and you're, you're asking for more resources down there,

• 38:42JD Baker?

  because one thing McClellan was like really good at, was exaggerating the numbers. Like, that dude, you know what I mean? There would be, you know, Robert E. Lee would have 55,000 folks, oh, he's got 110. I mean, he's gonna, he's gonna exploit the numbers just insane.

• 39:01Jocko Willink?

  So he's telling small lies, or in some cases, probably big lies, in order to get more resources?

• 39:07JD Baker?

  Yeah. Yeah, if he-

• 39:10Jocko Willink?

  This is McClellan.

• 39:11JD Baker?

  Yeah, this is McClellan.

• 39:12Jocko Willink?

  So McClellan's, you know, gets word from his cavalry, his scouts, that there's, whatever, 50,000 people. He's gonna tell his boss, there's 100,000 anti-fighters.

• 39:24JD Baker?

  And this isn't, and this, he, this is-

• 39:26Jocko Willink?

  This is his pattern.

• 39:27JD Baker?

  This is his pattern. You know what I mean? Because then that's gonna delay anything that he's gonna gonna have to do. Like, I mean, you know, the president, you know, Winfield Scott, these guys are like, dude, when are you, when are you gonna attack? Well, I mean, he's just like, slow rolling, you know, the commander in chief, because he keeps, he's got that guy Pinkerton, you know, private kinda, you know, intel guy. And of course, you know, if you hire me, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you what you want to hear. Oh, there's a shitload up there. Oh, yeah. I mean, we thought it was 50,000. I heard this guy's coming from here, and this guy's coming from up there. So they're gonna inflate the numbers to try to get more

• 40:11JD Baker?

  resources. And you could see it, even in the writings and in the books of his communications with his wife. McClellan is a little Napoleon. He thinks very highly of himself. And when you look at it of McClellan, and why do the troops like him? Because he's keeping them alive, because they're not doing anything. You know, and McClellan is not one, as a commander, to put his personal self at risk. You know what I mean? Like, he's not gonna put himself out there, and that's a pattern. You know what I mean? He's gonna stay in the rear,

• 40:55JD Baker?

  he's not gonna go out, you know what I mean? He's not gonna, you know, so he's not seen, you know, during battle that takes place out there. And so now he's gonna go up against, and the problem is, is everybody goes to West Point, and everybody kinda knows everybody, and everybody was kinda down in the Mexican-American war. So everybody kinda knows the character of each one of these individuals. And then now you're gonna bring in this guy, Bobby Lee. And Robert E. Lee, you know, at the beginning, everybody's kind of thinking like, man, it's, it's Robert E. Lee. Well, I mean, he had nicknames too, you know, I mean, down in cell block with the privates and stuff sitting around, you know, they got this whole thing of like this digging in. Like, what's this, what's this digging in stuff? Like, what's

• 41:40JD Baker?

  this fortifications? What is it? That's not manly. That's not how we fight.

• 41:45Jocko Willink?

  This is so Robert E. Lee is oftentimes pushing, set up defensive positions, get out your shovels, dig in, we're gonna hold what we got right now, which is in the view of the troops, the frontline troops cowardly.

• 42:01JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, they call him the king of spades.

• 42:04Jocko Willink?

  As in spade shovel.

• 42:06JD Baker?

  Yeah, like spade, the shovel, not like a cool spade.

• 42:09Jocko Willink?

  Didn't they call him Granny too?

• 42:10JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah, Granny Lee. Because, you know, which, you know, we've talked about this before when, you know, just you and I up at, up at Gettysburg, you know, I mean, Lee's in his 50s. Well, of course, yeah, when I was a kid at eight years old, the first time I went to, you know, VMI and I'm seeing Robert E. Lee, I'm like, man, that dude was old. Now I sit across the table from you, I'm like, that dude's in the prime of his life, man. But to the young soldiers, you know what I mean? He's this old man. So they were calling him Granny Lee. He's not the, the Robert E. Lee that everybody's kind of thinks about, you know, towards, you know, after the war and what he is, he's not as

• 42:50JD Baker?

  prominent. I would probably put Stonewall Jackson coming in early in the war and all the way up to 63 is probably becoming the most, he is the most popular general in the Confederacy, Stonewall. I mean, just because he's, he's making the paper, he's making his name and, but they're going to bring in Robert E. Lee. And Robert E. Lee.

• 43:14JD Baker?

  You know, is going to, he's going to defeat and push back the army of the Potomac to where now he's going to put a dilemma on McClellan. So McClellan is going to have to make a decision of like, man, we're not going to be able to take Richmond. So do I just bring in the boats and put everybody back and go on back up to the, you know, up the, up the Potomac and, and, and regroup and, and kind of go with this again. And you could only imagine like the amount of resources and the amount of information that he's pushing up to DC that, you know, the President of the United States and these guys up in DC are not happy with what they're kind of getting

• 43:59JD Baker?

  down there on the peninsula campaign. But, you know, relieving a general officer pulling from his command is going to be, I mean, that's a difficult decision because these guys are very well connected politically as well. So as they, they pull back off the peninsula, we end up getting, you know, the, the second battle of Bull Run, Battle of Manassas. And, and they're going to bring in other commanders that, that are going to come in. And at the, at the second battle, McClellan's going to slow roll. And he's getting orders to, to release folks up there to, to, to take part in the battle. And, and he's going to slow

• 44:44JD Baker?

  roll the other commanders, almost kind of like sending a message of like-

• 44:49Jocko Willink?

  So he doesn't provide support-

• 44:52JD Baker?

  No.

• 44:52Jocko Willink?

  -with his team to the other team that's in a pitched battle?

• 44:57JD Baker?

  Right.

• 44:57Jocko Willink?

  He decides, no, I'm not going to send you any support. Or, um, oh yeah, okay, I'll, I'll get it started. They'll be there tomorrow or whatever. He slow rolls the execution and they end up getting beat again.

• 45:09JD Baker?

  Yep. They end up getting beat again. And then, you know, now they're going to put Lincoln into a predicament to where they're going to put him back in command. They're going to combine those armies there and bring them all underneath McClellan. There's a lot of, a lot of turmoil that's going on amongst the officers. You know, the book that, that we have laying there on the table, the one of Lincoln's lieutenants. It's a, a great read into the insights of the, the officers, the general officers in the Army of the Potomac. And what Lincoln is having to deal with, with some of these guys that just don't want. Yeah, drama, like literally it's the housewives of the Army of the Potomac, like literally, like, you know what I mean?

• 45:52JD Baker?

  Like they could have a, a whole episode of this stuff just going on of just the, the drama that's going on in, in and around the general officers and.

• 46:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, there's, when, uh, when I'm trying to help companies hire people, you know, one of the things I advise them to do, if it's possible for them to do it is, put them in this, put them in the situation that they're going to be working in. So, so can you hire them as a contractor for 90 days and you figure out what they're like? Even when people say, who's going to make it through SEAL training? Well, you, the, the only way to figure out who's going to make it through SEAL training is by putting them in some kind of similar situation. You know, some kind of similar situation that is very similar to SEAL training and then you might have an indication. So that's kind of what we got going on here. It's not like these, many of these senior officers, they haven't gone through the, the, the ranks.

• 46:43Jocko Willink?

  And like you said, they haven't led a platoon and then led a company and then been a battalion XO and then been a battalion commander. And then gone up through the chain to where they, they've proven themselves. So you're throwing these guys into positions where it's like, hey, they might not be good at this job. And they don't have any time to learn it. So you're going to kind of get what you get and there's going to be drama.

• 47:08JD Baker?

  Yeah, they're learning it on the fly, you know, running around and then, you know, because even though you've got so like these West Point guys, well, you still got to have like regimental commanders and stuff. And you're still standing these folks up there, all coming from the same hometowns, you know what I mean? So they're all joining together, the joining of arms. And then kind of at the beginning, it's kind of like, you know, if, if we're here in, in, uh, you know, in, in San Diego County and everybody's like, yeah, hey, we got a thousand folks that we, well, who, who should be the Colonel? Well, let's take a vote, man. You know what I mean? I, I, you know, I, I think Echo should be the, the Colonel. Okay. He's the Colonel. Now, what, what military background, you know what I mean? Like, you know, you're just a good guy. And, and of course, people are just wanting to do the right thing. But, you

• 47:53JD Baker?

  know, at that level, yeah, that's a huge jump. You know what I mean? Of, of, of being in charge of that many folks. So, yeah, they're, they're trying to figure it out on the fly. And then, of course, people have favorites. You know what I mean? So you got, you try to look out for your favorites of who the guys are.

• 48:15Jocko Willink?

  This is the legit good old boy network on both sides, right?

• 48:18JD Baker?

  Yeah. So, I mean, it, it is very difficult, but, you know, so they, they push them off the, the Battle of Seven Pines. There's also, you know, other events that are, that are taking place out West. You know what I mean? So, the Battle of P Ridge out in Arkansas up in the Ozarks takes place in the early parts of March of 1862. And it's out the trans, kind of the trans Mississippi kind of area that's out there. And, you know, if you look at it in the Midwest with that expansion kind of thing, you know what I mean? St. Louis, I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a prominent city at the time to be able to have control

• 49:02JD Baker?

  over that. And then, you know, it's the, the playing in of that, the trans Mississippi, the Battle of P Ridge, some of us can refer to it as the, the Gettysburg of the West. You know, where you have General Curtis, he's running with the Union and he got Van Dorn out at the Battle of P Ridge. Within sight of, of the battle that takes place out there, after this battle, there's, it basically eliminates that entire region of the United States throughout the, the Civil War and keeps in control of the Union within sight of that region. One of the most interesting things about the Battle of, of P Ridge that

• 49:47JD Baker?

  took place out there is the Confederacy were able to go over to the Indian Territory in Oklahoma, and they stood up a couple of regiments of Cherokee to come fight.

• 50:01JD Baker?

  For the Confederacy, which a lot of folks don't know, you know what I mean? I couldn't imagine the recruiting spin that was going on over there. Obviously, they're probably still a little bit upset with the whole Indian removal thing and the Trail of Tears that got them out there. So they convinced and stand up a couple of these regiments of Native Americans to come fight for the Confederacy. And it's not really recorded or thought, but I wonder if they were like, yeah, hey dude, you guys come fight with us, man? We'll give you North Georgia back. You know what I mean? We'll move you back in.

• 50:37JD Baker?

  The problem is, after the Battle of P Ridge, they end up finding this, like, a small detachment of Union soldiers that are killed and scalped. And they kind of have to go to the Cherokee like, hey dude, that's great. You guys are coming out. Plus, they didn't really conform to the whole, like, instant obedience to order, like, the whole military thing. You know what I mean? They kind of fight different, like, you know what I mean? We kind of do what we want to do. And what do you mean, there's no scalping? You know what I mean? So they sent them back, you know? But there was actually Native Americans that fought for the Confederacy against the United States of America. But when they, you know, the whole scalping thing kind of started taking place.

• 51:21JD Baker?

  And there was no more Confederate, really, threat in that trans-Mississippi area after the Battle of P Ridge, held in by General Curtis. And then that secured St. Louis, which was a, that was a huge key victory. Like, if you're looking at strategy, strategically, that Battle of P Ridge was huge for the Union.

• 51:48Jocko Willink?

  So, so, thinking of strategy, talk to us about the Anaconda Plan. This is Winfield Scotts, who's the Northern Commander of the armies. What's his plan, overall, on how to beat the Confederate States?

• 52:09JD Baker?

  Yeah, so Winfield Scott's going to come up with, it gets tagged, the Anaconda Plan. And, you know, you look at the Anaconda, you know, earlier we talked about, like, being in Panama and seeing an anaconda, waterborne snake, it's constrictor, like, something I don't want to be caught in the water with, you know what I mean? Especially that large of a snake. So, you know, you've got this insurgency, if you call it, you know, insurgency of these Confederate states that are kind of down there. So he's gonna have to kind of like throw a line around it. So, you know, he's gonna anchor the tail of the anaconda snake in Washington DC and then the snake's gonna run down the Potomac River. It's gonna go into the Chesapeake Bay.

• 52:51JD Baker?

  It's gonna run down and around Florida. It's gonna come up the Gulf Coast and then into the Mississippi River. And that's the head of the snake is coming from west to east. So they're gonna, you know, they're gonna cut off resources to the Confederacy with a naval blockade. And they're gonna control the riverways with these armies. They're gonna start sending armies with a western theater campaign. You know, so you've got the Army of the Ohio, the Army of the James, or the Ohio, the Cumberland, the Army of the Tennessee, the Army of the Gulf, you know what I mean? The Army of the Mississippi

• 53:33JD Baker?

  that are gonna be, and then you've got the Army of the Potomac that's gonna deal with this eastern kind of theater aspect. But when you look at the anaconda plan, with the head of the snake coming from the west, that's the focus of main effort. Like, they've gotta secure the west before they can start the constrictor of the snake to the Confederacy. So, you know, for the metaphor, metaphors matter because they're memorable. So when you actually look at it on a strategic aspect of the anaconda plan, if you can't even read or write, you can look at the cartoon. This is what we're doing. Yeah. Hey, this is what we're doing. Okay, I got it. You know, first thing we gotta

• 54:15JD Baker?

  do is, we gotta control the waterways. And they're doing a pretty good job of it. So as you have some, you know, you got the trans Mississippi with the Battle of P Ridge, that's kind of secure. We don't really know what we're doing over here on the east coast with the army of the Potomac kind of thing. We got a lot of drama going on. And then you're going to start sending these armies of the west down, you know, to start controlling these waterways of the Cumberland River, the Tennessee River, the Mississippi River. So you're going to put these armies into motion. So you've got the army of the Tennessee, you've got the army of the Ohio. They're going to start

• 54:56JD Baker?

  making their way to start being the head of that snake. And that's what's going to get us into this first like big battle that you kind of talked about, like Shiloh is going to be the, it's going to be the first big show. It's kind of like, you know, we've been looking at a little, not, I hate to downgrade it of kind of like it's preseason.

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  The other battles up to now are preseason a little bit?

• 55:21JD Baker?

  Yeah, now we're going to get, I mean, this is, this is going to be a big show. I mean, this is going to be the Battle of Shiloh out in the west. This is going to be a first of what they call, I mean, even the book that you kind of read from, you know, called in hell before night. And the other attributes of seeing the elephant. This is going to be a baptism of fire that nobody has seen. Like, we haven't seen it at this scale of what's going to take place in Shiloh.

• 55:50Jocko Willink?

  And so it's Shiloh, but Shiloh is not really the decisive terrain here. The decisive terrain is south of the town of Shiloh. It's a, it's a city, and city is probably a strong word because I've been to Corinth, Mississippi. Corinth, Mississippi is a little town, a relatively small town. And, but it's got, it's got multiple railways coming in, passing through it. So it's a strategic, it's a strategic town. And the Confederates want to protect it. Because like you said, we got these big western armies moving west, moving southwest to try and get, get control of the Mississippi.

• 56:34Jocko Willink?

  And or end of the Tennessee River as well. So the Confederates know this. They know that the north is heading south. So what is what do what do the Confederates do? They move north. They push north above Corinth, Mississippi to stop the Union forces before they get to Corinth. And they move, they get to a place called Shiloh.

• 57:00Jocko Willink?

  Shiloh, Tennessee is just like a little, is it even a town? What do you call it? Is it a town? I guess Shiloh?

• 57:07JD Baker?

  I don't even know if it would get the term town. Uh, like you said,

• 57:12Jocko Willink?

  It's an area.

• 57:13JD Baker?

  It's it's a, there's a church. So there's this little Shiloh church.

• 57:19Jocko Willink?

  And then there's a, there's a landing area called Pittsburgh Landing, which is on the Tennessee River. And as Grant and his army pushed down, this is where they decide they're going to, uh, they're gonna, they're gonna pull in. They're gonna pull in because again, they're looking at this, this metropolitan area, not so much Corinth, but but it's a strategic area, like I said. So you got, that's General Grant. And then you got another, another northern general, General Buell, who's leading the army of the, the Ohio. And what they're trying to do, they're both trying to get there. They're both trying to get to Corinth, Mississippi. They're both pushing

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  south. Grant gets there first. Um, on the other side, who you got? You got Johnson and Beauregard? Beauregard's mobile, huh? That guy's getting all over the place, huh?

• 58:16JD Baker?

  Well, yeah. And, you know, when you, Beauregard, uh, after, you know, at the beginning, yeah, he's, he's there at the beginning, but then, you know, it's, you start to notice that anybody that's sent to the Western theater is like what we call like the, the land of the misfit toys. You know what I mean? Like,

• 58:36Jocko Willink?

  It's like get stationed in, in Siberia if you're,

• 58:40JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 58:41Jocko Willink?

  If you're in the Russian army.

• 58:42JD Baker?

  Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, so a lot of, if, if you're gonna shit can somebody, you send them west. Now, like, when you look at, like, the guys, like, you know, we talk, like, you talk about Grant. You know what I mean? Grant, you know, of coming up, you know, when you look at it of like, man, what was Ulysses S. Grant doing in 1860? The guy was a complete, pretty much, he was having a hard time in life at that point. You know what I mean? He had fought, West Point guy, fought in the Mexican-American War, got sent out to California, you know what I mean? There's folks talking about, you know, a drinking problem that Grant has. Of course,

• 59:22JD Baker?

  you know, Grant had lost a son. You know, so a lot of the times when, you know, I've never lost a child, but I'm pretty sure it's gonna have a pretty big effect on me. And how I'm gonna handle that, I really don't know. So, you know, you got this guy, Ulysses S. Grant, that's showing promise, but he's selling firewood on the streets of St. Louis before the war breaks out to try to support his family. Because he's just, he's not really good in the civilian world, like, being a business guy, he's just not, he's struggling. You know what I mean? Which, there's tons of people, man, that struggle.

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:00:03JD Baker?

  And, but at least he's like, he's selling firewood and stuff. So when the war breaks out, he's like, I'm back in. You know what I mean? So, let's head out and let's see if I can, of course, but now you got your reputation. You know what I mean? So, what's interesting is, is like, you know, when we talked about Grant, you know, then we talked about Sherman. You know, we talked about Sherman earlier. You know, he's crazy, Grant's a drunk. You know, but the two of them kind of stick together. And it's like, you know, I mean, this dude ends up on a $50 bill. He's the President of the United States. He becomes the chief of all the army. I mean, I hate to be a spoiler alert of like, Grant, but from a dude selling firewood on the streets to, of what he rose to, you know, perseverance comes to mind. Like,

• 1:00:48JD Baker?

  if people might talk shit about him, he's gonna show up, he's gonna come to work. So but he's got a lot of struggles to deal with like he's never been in charge of like this many people. So you know, Grant's gonna make his way down and he's having some success. He's working with with the naval Captain Foot and they're actually working together Army and Navy, which is, you know, kind of odd. You know, you can bring in naval ships and bombard, you know, I mean, which is pretty cool naval gunfire, if you will, brings them in and Grant's the ground force, but he's using them as transportation. So, you know, between like Grant and Foot, I think they're working really well together. But then, you know, you talked about with with Buell.

• 1:01:33JD Baker?

  So he's got he's another Army commander. So they're both they're like peers. So neither one of them work with each other. And you know how it kind of works with peers. Sometimes like you go to your peer for some support and he's like, dude, I don't work for you. You know what I mean? Like, I gotta get shit from the boss. Tell me what to do. So yeah, he is trailing Grant. But they're, you know, everybody's focused on the on the on the same mission. I mean, when you look at the overall arching strategy of Abraham Lincoln, it was preserve the Union. So that's his message to everybody. The only thing we're gonna do is is preserve the Union. So these guys, they're out moving, you know, they're they're learning along the way. You got Ulysses S. Grant. So they got, you know, and you've been to Corinth, I've been to Corinth.

• 1:02:17JD Baker?

  You know, I think you probably had to do the same thing. You got to fly into Memphis and drive a couple hours over because there's just no easy way to get to Corinth. But when you look at like the supply depots of railways and waterways, and you're trying to supply these armies of thousands of people, and you look at the Western theater of the, you know, the Tennessee River, the Cumberland River, the Ohio and the Mississippi, where you kind of look at it as like, where are you going to store this stuff? So if you're going to bring it in by boat, so you got you got Nashville, that's a big hub. You know, you got Memphis, that's a big hub. And then you've got like, you know, where you go north.

• 1:03:01JD Baker?

  The south, so you know, current is like right at the very top of Mississippi, just right below that southeastern Tennessee kinda area, and it's just not an easy place to get to. So if you're gonna come in and you're gonna strategically, one, you gotta get all your people there. So Grant's gonna put them on a boat, they're gonna float down the Tennessee River, and then you gotta look for a landing. Well, and of course, you don't wanna land too close, cuz you wanna get everybody off the boat before, you know, any of the Confederates come, cuz if you're just sitting on the boat, uh, that's gonna make it pretty easy for the Confederacy. Uh, so they're gonna pick Pittsburgh Landing, and even still to this day, like you said, I mean, there's nothing in Little Church. That's it.

• 1:03:45JD Baker?

  I mean, like, I mean, I'm even trying to think, and like, modern day today, like, there, there's nothing. I mean, there's a Hagie's Catfish Hotel, like, down, down the road a bit, uh, and that's about it. Great catfish, uh, but other than that, there's just nothing there. So he's gonna bring his folks in, and they're gonna, they're gonna offload right there at Pittsburgh Landing, and, and that landing, I mean, even if you and I, like, looking at it today, it's like, man, that's a, you know, insert and extract is usually the worst places to get hit. Uh, so, you know, coming in, so it's like one of those landings down river, and then it's like, you know, the cliffs over where I'm staying. So it's like getting dropped off there, and then I've got this little straight up ahead.

• 1:04:27JD Baker?

  So I'm already, there, there's high ground above Pittsburgh Landing. Uh, you know what I mean? So getting folks off and then getting them up on the landing and then establishing a foothold is, is his first priority. And, uh, and nothing against, let's just ask Grant, like, again, man, this is, uh, this is right at the beginning, uh, but Grant's gonna kinda go up there and there's not gonna be a lot of order and discipline going on. It's kind of like, hey, guys, get off the boat. You know what I mean? They go up there and they they set up camp. You know what I mean? Because this is their their first rodeo.

• 1:05:04JD Baker?

  I mean, they're having fun on the way down, riding on the boat ride. You know what I mean? They're coming in. They're like, oh, man, this is going to be an easy day. You know what I mean? So I think that their their expectations just like really aren't there. You know what I mean? So they're all going to get. Of course, they don't know either. I mean, look at the last war they fought in. It was the Mexican-American War, and we saw how that went. You know what I mean? It was we were pretty, other than, you know, like the Battle of San Pascal that took place out here with with Carney and Pico, kind of put the wood to him. And, you know, if it wasn't for, you know, that little guy, Kit Carson, that got him out of it when he stalked from out there all the way into the bay to link up with the Navy to get relief, to come out to get him.

• 1:05:49JD Baker?

  So these guys are getting off the boat, and there's not really a lot of order and discipline. So it's kind of like, if I was going to describe it like what it looked like, it looked like a very unorganized yard save.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  So that's what they do. They're they're there. Now, meanwhile, on the other side, you got you got General Johnson, and he's, you know, this is the guy that we kicked off this. This is the speech. You know, this guy is engaged, right? And he tells his troops, you know, before the battle, tonight, tonight, we will water our horses in the Tennessee River.

• 1:06:27JD Baker?

  Love it.

• 1:06:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So this guy is ready to get it on. And, well, and they meet. And a great book and a great account of this is Company H. By Sam R. Watkins. This guy is a Confederate soldier. And he's got a great first person account to to kind of explain what's going on, what this looks like this first day. So here we go.

• 1:06:58Jocko Willink?

  This was the first big battle in which our regiment had ever been engaged. I do not pretend to tell of what command distinguished itself. Of heroes, of blood and wounds, of shrieks and groans, of brilliant charges, of cannon captured, etc. I was but a private soldier. And if I happened to look to see if I could find anything out. Eyes right, guide center was the order. Close up, guide right, halt, forward, right oblique, left oblique, halt, forward, guide center, eyes right. Dress up promptly in the rear, steady, double quick, charge bayonets, fire at will. Is about all that a private soldier ever knows about.

• 1:07:44Jocko Willink?

  And when I read that for the first time. That's just like horrifying, right? You're in this massive battle and you're just hearing orders. And we, you know, when you and I've marched, well, when I marched in, in, in Navy boot camp and when you marched in Marine Corps. And you learn how to guide right. And you're kind of out of the corner of your eye, you're looking at the guy to the right of you to make sure you're staying even with them. You can't, it's, it's hard to take that mentality and then you take it into like a combat situation where there's. You know, right ball coming at you, guys getting their legs blown off. Horrifying. And that's what this guy's dealing with. He says, uh, he can see the smoke rise in the flash of battle of the enemy's guns. And he can hear the whistle of the mini and cannonballs.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  But he has got to load and shoot as hard as he can tear and ram cartridge. Or we'll soon find out like the Irishman who had been shooting blank cartridges. When a ball happened to strike him and he hollowed out. Faith, pat and be jabbers. Them fellows are shooting bullets.

• 1:08:49Jocko Willink?

  But I nevertheless remember many things that came under my observation in this battle. I remember a man by the name of Smith stepping deliberately out of the ranks and shooting his finger off to keep out of the fight. So you guys, he's documenting some cowardice, a guy shooting off his own finger so he doesn't have to fight. Of another poor fellow who was accidentally shot and killed by the discharge of another person's gun. And of others suddenly taken sick with colic. As we, I'm gonna fast forward a little bit, as we advanced on the edge of battlefield, we saw a big fat Colonel of the 23rd Tennessee Regiment badly wounded, whose name if I remember correctly was Matt Martin. He said to us, "Give 'em goss, boys. That's right, my brave first Tennessee.

• 1:09:34Jocko Willink?

  Give 'em hail, Columbia." We halted but a moment, and I said, "Colonel, where are you wounded?" He answered in a deep bass voice, "My son, I am wounded in the arm, in the leg, in the head, in the body, and in another place which I have a delicacy in mentioning." That is what the old gallant Colonel said. About noon, a courier dashed up and ordered us to go forward and support General Bragg's center. We had to pass over the ground where troops had been fighting all day. I had heard and read of battlefields, seen pictures of battlefields, of horses and men,

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  of cannon and wagons, all jumbled together, while the ground was strewn with dead and dying and wounded. But I must confess that I never realized the pomp and circumstance of the thing called glorious war. Until I saw this. Men were lying in every conceivable position, the dead lying with their eyes wide open, the wounded begging piteously for help, and some waving their hats and shouting for us to go forward. It all seemed to me a dream. I seemed to be in some sort of haze, when "siz, siz, siz," the mini-balls from the Yankee Line began to whistle around our ears, and I thought of the Irishman when he said, "Sure enough, those fellows are shooting bullets."

• 1:11:02Jocko Willink?

  Down we would drop first one fellow and then another either killed or wounded.

• 1:11:08Jocko Willink?

  When we were ordered to charge bayonets, I had been feeling mean all morning. As if I had stolen a sheep, but when the order to charge was given, I got happy. I felt happier than a fellow does when he professes religion at a big Methodist camp meeting. I shouted. It was fun then. Everybody looked happy. We were crowding them. One more charge, their lines waver and break. They retreat in wild confusion. We were jubilant. We were triumphant. Officers could not curb the men to keep them in line. Discharge after discharge was poured into the retreating line. The federal dead and wounded covered the ground.

• 1:11:49Jocko Willink?

  When, in the very midst of our victory, here comes an order to halt. What? Halt after today's victory? Sidney Johnson killed, General Gladden killed, and a host of generals and other brave men killed, and the whole Yankee army in full retreat? These four letters, H A L T. Oh, how harsh they did break upon our ears. The victory was complete, but the word halt turned victory into defeat.

• 1:12:26Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 1:12:29Jocko Willink?

  it's mayhem out there. And, uh, and like you said, you know, this is seeing the elephant. These guys are seeing this hardcore combat for the first time.

• 1:12:42Jocko Willink?

  And as you can hear in that description from Watkins, uh, you know, the, the, the Confederates dominate day one. They dominate. They push and they get the upper hand. Um, they, they pushed Grant all the way back to Pittsburgh Landing. I mean, they, they pushed him back. Uh, he mentions, Sam Watkins mentions that General Johnson's dead. So he'd been wounded.

• 1:13:15Jocko Willink?

  Hitting the, hitting the femoral artery and bleeds out.

• 1:13:21Jocko Willink?

  And Beauregard, after this first day, so the first day, the, you know, the, the Union forces had pushed in from the, the Tennessee, but now they get pushed all the way back. And Beauregard thinks they won. And actually sends the message out to Jefferson, Jefferson Davis, sends a message to Jefferson Davis saying, hey, we, we just won a big battle here.

• 1:13:49JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, he's, he's like, you know, it's, it's basically going into halftime, and he's claiming victory. You know, when, one, I, I love the Company H Sam White, because it's a, it's a first account from a soldier. That's just a rifleman. You know what I mean? And in his perspective, and when he talks about, you know, like later on, we'll talk about Braxton Bragg. And, I mean, that, that guy is, he's a character within himself. It's amazing. He got a base named after him. But, you know, they didn't call JD to ask about naming of bases. But, you know, when you look at it, of Bragg, I mean, he's talking about, you know, those numerous assaults of what he came into behind. So, you know,

• 1:14:34JD Baker?

  Braxton Bragg, there was this, there's a section of the battle that's called the Hornets Nest down there. And, and it's like, it's, you know, if, if you could imagine, like, Pittsburgh Landing's been there, you know, it's, it's all farm country. I mean, you've been in that region before that's down there. So when, when folks are coming in, there's like these old, like, farming roads and, and the farm fields. So if you could imagine, just over time, you've got, you know, the, the wagons have been running these same little two-track rails, and they start to get like sunken down a little bit. So it just gives you just a little bit of that micro terrain defilade. And that's where

• 1:15:16JD Baker?

  You know, Prentice and his guys, he's gonna put his division that's there and I mean Braxton Bragg's just gonna, he's gonna knock against that, that surface numerous times throughout the battle.

• 1:15:28Jocko Willink?

  Just frontal assault.

• 1:15:29JD Baker?

  Just frontal. I mean, just, yeah, okay, just, okay, you, you hit it, you hit a, you know, you hit a surface, why not try to find a gap? Like, where's the gap in the road? And he's gonna numerous times, he's gonna send them up there. And, and they, of course, you know, you, you beat your head that many times against the wall, you just keep throwing resources. So that's what kinda Sam is seeing, just the, the carnage that's taking place. Like I said, I mean, nobody had seen this kinda, this kinda carnage on a battlefield. And this is day one. And yeah, and the Confederates are, are gonna push them back, but at a cost. Like, they're, they're gonna take a huge cost for this. And again, you know, Johnson,

• 1:16:13JD Baker?

  when you look at Albert Sidney, there's a lot of folks, like when you go down there to Shiloh, they're like, well, JD, I mean, a commander should never put himself at that kind of risk, that close. You know, but there's a point in time to where the commander's gotta get out of the tent. And the troops, he, he needs to be seen. And he's gonna put himself at risk. And yeah, I mean, he's gonna take a shot. And, and in the saddle, it's not gonna un-horse him. He's basically just gonna, and he, but he never leaves the field, which kinda says something about Johnson.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:16:44JD Baker?

  You know what I mean? Of, of getting injured. I mean, you got other folks that are looking to just, you know, get a scratch and, and they're out.

• 1:16:50Jocko Willink?

  Shoot their finger off, yeah.

• 1:16:52JD Baker?

  Yeah, shooting the finger off, that kinda stuff. So Johnson knows that his place in battle, one, if you could imagine with, you know, you've got these novice folks that are out there, this is their first battle. And then they're gonna overrun the Union. And, you know, and like I said earlier, like, you know, Grant's kinda running a yard sale up there. So these dudes are brewing up ramen, you know what I mean? They're cooking up some hard tack, they got a little bit of fat. And then these guys are gonna overrun them, and, and they're probably hungry. And they're seeing all this free gear. You know what I mean? Like, gear adrift is a gift. You know what I mean? Like, if your name ain't on it, I'm taking it.

• 1:17:29Jocko Willink?

  These, so the Confederate troops push through, overrun much of what the Union's got set up. And there's just... Looting about to go down.

• 1:17:39JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're looting. You know what I mean? It's like, man, that's a better rifle than the one I got. Taking that one. You know, so, so they're kind of looting and, and, and Johnson and them are actually trying to stop the looting because it's distracting from the battle. Like, okay, look, man, we got it, dude. Like, they got a lot of cool stuff, but let's keep like, let's keep pushing them. And Johnson actually, you know, it's recorded, you know, they talk about Johnson. He, he ends up taking a tin cup because he doesn't, you know, these guys are, they're just a bunch of privates, man. They really don't know what they're doing. You know, they're just out there following orders, man. And they're putting them into this, this first big battle. And he takes a cup as if like, he's gonna, he's gonna loot along with them. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:24JD Baker?

  And he raises that cup and then he rides the line with that cup and, and he's tinking the tops of their bayonets, kind of inspiring them of he's out there with them on the battle. And he ends up, you know, taking a shot and then bleeding out. And it's not one of his staff officers, kind of like, it's like me looking across the unit. It's like, Chaka, man, you're looking kind of pale about right now. And, you know, you're bleeding out. They pull him down into, into a little ravine, get him out of sight of everybody and pull him off the saddle. And, you know, he's, he's done training. He dies right there on the field. So then now you've got, you know, P T Beauregard.

• 1:19:04JD Baker?

  Basically, the second in command is now, and it's kind of almost as if like, you know, when you look at it in the readings, when Beauregard kind of finds out that Johnson's dead, you'd seem to have a little bit more remorse of, like, I mean, Johnson's a good commander. You know what I mean? But, you know, P T Beauregard, like you said, I mean, and Sam Watkins calls it out of like, why, what's this halt? Like, why aren't we just crushing this army? Why are we not keep pushing forth? Because you just lost the commander. And when no one's there giving a command, people just stop because they don't know, you know what I mean?

• 1:19:45JD Baker?

  Even though like it, it kind of boggles me a little bit because if you tell me like, if you're like, hey JD, we're going to water our horses on the Tennessee River. Then even if I don't hear from you for the entire rest of the day.

• 1:19:59Jocko Willink?

  You know what to do.

• 1:20:00JD Baker?

  I know exactly what to do.

• 1:20:01Jocko Willink?

  Tennessee River.

• 1:20:02JD Baker?

  Yeah, I'll be there watering my horse, man. You know what I mean? You get there and be like, hey Jocko, what up?

• 1:20:07Jocko Willink?

  It's the ultimate commander's intent, intent.

• 1:20:09JD Baker?

  Yeah, I got, I got it. You don't have to tell me anything else. I just know I need to get to the Tennessee River and anything in between me and the Tennessee River, I need to kill. Period. And I got my horse, I'm at the Tennessee River. We're there. Because you know, they also, you know, they, they're worried about, you know, this guy of like, okay, you know, cause just like gathering and tell, okay, where's Buell? Cause there's another army out there. I mean, that's a, that's a huge factor to anybody, you know, whether it's Johnson, whether it's Beauregard, you know, you've got another army out there moving around like that. That's a, that's another force you have to contend with.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that, that's like you're on the football field and there's another team that's going to come and get on the field against you.

• 1:20:52JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:52Jocko Willink?

  You want to finish off the guys that are there.

• 1:20:55JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  They don't do that.

• 1:20:57JD Baker?

  No.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  That's where this halt comes in. And these guys kind of just, they, they stop, they halt, they hold up.

• 1:21:05Jocko Willink?

  And, and while this is happening, uh, I mean, the, first of all, the, the union brings in these gunboats for the night and starts shelling, which is apparently ineffective, other than the fact it's just mayhem and noise and you know, some, I'm sure some casualties, you're not sleeping very well and you're getting shelled, even if it's inaccurate. Uh, you got Nathan Bedford Forrest.

• 1:21:35Jocko Willink?

  Nathan Bedford Forrest, this guy, he's out doing reconnaissance. And, and he actually discovers Buell, that he finds out that Buell's coming.

• 1:21:48JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:50Jocko Willink?

  And starts trying to tell everybody, Buell's coming, here comes his other army. Hey, boss, Buell's coming, the whole other army's coming our way, this isn't good. No one listens to him.

• 1:22:02JD Baker?

  Yeah, and remember, you know, last night when we were kind of chit and chatting about, about Forrest, remember like he put on Union uniforms? And, and got like in close in reconnaissance. So he's got eyes on Buell coming in and, and he's reporting it up his chain. Now, you know, Nathan is not a, not a West Point grad, you know, so he's not in the club. Uh, you know what I mean? He's not very well educated.

• 1:22:27Jocko Willink?

  Well, all right, you got, we gotta talk about, about Nathan Forrest. Tell us a little bit about this guy, cause he's a character.

• 1:22:34JD Baker?

  He, he is, uh, well, you know, I like, I'd like to explain to a lot of folks, like, nobody really knew who Nathan Bedford Forrest was until Tom Hanks came out with the movie Forrest Gump. And right at the beginning of the movie, you know what I mean? You got, you know, Tom Hanks and he's talking about his great, great, great, great grandfather that, you know what I mean? Fought in the Civil War and was a general officer and then he rode around with sheets on and stuff like that. And everybody was kind of like sitting there with their iPad and they were like, hmm, let me Google search that real quick. Wow, this guy, uh, he's got a little bit of a backstory to him. Uh, so Nathan, he was Tennessee guy, uh, not educated, uh, formally.

• 1:23:17JD Baker?

  Um, but at the beginning of the war, when they're, when they're calling to arms, uh, Nathan Bedford, I mean, he's, he's first one out, like, yep, but I'm, I'm coming in, I'm in, coach.

• 1:23:26Jocko Willink?

  He's not educated, but he's wealthy, right?

• 1:23:28JD Baker?

  Oh, he's wealthy, he's a, he's a millionaire in 1860.

• 1:23:31Jocko Willink?

  From the slave trade.

• 1:23:32JD Baker?

  From slave trade.

• 1:23:36Jocko Willink?

  And he shows up, no real military experience.

• 1:23:39JD Baker?

  None.

• 1:23:39Jocko Willink?

  But he's ready, he's ready to go.

• 1:23:42JD Baker?

  He, he's a private. He just wants to sign up and just to make me a rifleman. Uh, I, I just want to go kill Yankees, uh, because yeah, this is going to go against my way of life. And of course the folks that are there, like Nathan is well known. You know what I mean? That kind of guy banging that kind of money back then and, and he's, you know, of what he's doing uh, with inside the, the slave trade and, and, uh, uh, you know, he's, he's, he's a very known individual. So of course, you know, the folks are in there and they're like, hey, man, that's Nathan out there. Now, of course, like nobody like, you know, because Nathan doesn't come from prominent family. You know what I mean? Like dirt poor. Like the guy's just doesn't come from, uh, from a prominent family.

• 1:24:27JD Baker?

  So even though he's got money, you know what I mean? It's new money. You know what I mean? He's not like old money south. You know what I mean? It's like been around for like a long, we all, you know, we, it's Virginia, like where I live. We still got old money, Virginia. Uh, so he's not old money. He's new money, but they're just like, hey, man, you, you can't be a private. So they're like, well, the dude's got a whole bunch of money. We don't have a lot of money. We're starting up. So why don't you like stand up a cavalry regiment? And how about spend your money and outfit all of them? And Nathan's like, okay, I'm down with that. Make me a colonel. Yep, I, I'll take this on. So, uh, Nathan, he's, he, he, he doesn't have the military background.

• 1:25:10JD Baker?

  So he doesn't know that, like what he's supposed to be doing. So like all he knows is, is like his job on cavalry, I, I do reconnaissance. But he's a little different than other cavalry guys because he likes to fight. Uh, and he's got no qualms about leading charges. He's not the guy that's going to be found out because again, he doesn't know. So while everybody else is halting and they're looting the camps, you know, getting out the bacon, breaking out the banjos. Nathan Bedford's running reconnaissance effort and his son's with him. Uh, you know what I mean? And they're going to put on union uniforms. They're going to get close in reconnaissance and they're going to see Buell coming in. And he's going to report these up to higher and, and nobody's listening to them.

• 1:25:52JD Baker?

  Uh, you know, that other guy I talked about, uh, that was at the, at the hornets nest. With the union that was giving Braxton Bragg a lot of that resistance was was Prentice. And and Prentice, he was commanding the sixth division of the Army of Tennessee, working for Grant. There that first day, Prentice gets captured. So he's a prisoner of war and he's actually in in the camp, in the tents, you know, because, you know, back then, of course, they're going to segregate. You know what I mean? Enlisted guys, you're going to a certain prisoner of war camp. And the officers, you get to hang out in the tent with us because we all went to West Point together. We'll catch up. Totally different, you know, aspect to being a prisoner of war. When you look at officer versus the enlisted side.

• 1:26:37JD Baker?

  So Prentice is literally in the tent and even telling the officers that, hey, dude, Buell is on his way, like he's he's coming like now. And they're like, dude, you're full of shit, basically. Like, you know what I mean? Like, no, he's not. We've got reports, he's over in like Decatur, Alabama area. And he goes, look, dude, whatever reports you're getting is wrong. You're going to see tomorrow. So not only are they getting like told from their own reconnaissance efforts, they're getting told from a prisoner of war that they just fought against all day. And he's telling them and they're still not taking any of this into regard. And that night, like you said, so they're going to pull up two naval gunboats. And they're going to start lobbing naval gunfire throughout the night.

• 1:27:21JD Baker?

  And Buell is going to show up at Pittsburgh landing. And of course, he's seeing that mayhem. I mean, you got these guys that are that are from Grant. And I mean, they're literally running for their lives. I mean, they got folks that are hanging on to, remember, I told you about the embankment. So it would be like us going out there, you know what I mean? Like right across on the cliffs. And like, I am so scared for my life that I just ran through San Diego. And I'm just hanging on to the sides of the cliff just to get away from this, man. I mean, it's complete and utter fear for their lives of what they've seen that day on the first day of battle. So then you got this other army commander, Buell shows up. Well, you know how those guys are like, what are you guys doing?

• 1:28:06Jocko Willink?

  What'd you screw up?

• 1:28:08JD Baker?

  Yeah. And and then, of course, you know, anytime you got a bad day, it just starts torrential downpour. So right around like 2200 at night, man, it's just, you know, pissing out of a boot. I mean, it's just not a good day. It's raining on Grant's parade. And, and who comes over, you know, Tecumseh Sherman is there with Grant and, and you know, Grant doesn't go get on a boat. He doesn't even get in a tent. I mean, it's like, it's like literally like right above Pittsburgh landing. Like there's these just large oaks that are still sitting there. And every time I'm standing there, I could always imagine just Grant sitting

• 1:28:50JD Baker?

  there, just underneath cover. He's in his wool coat and it's just right in. He's just thinking about his days of vets. And, you know, Tecumseh Sherman comes over and it's just not a good day. And he looks at Sherman and he's like, we'll whoop them tomorrow, comp.

• 1:29:08JD Baker?

  Yeah. So even though Grant, you know, ran a yard sale, he did that. He, he, he's owning it. And the only good thing about when Buell shows up with, with his army, even though they're peers, they both have the same mindset. They're attacking in the morning. Like we're going offensive against this Confederacy. So, you know, that shows that that gives you a little glimpse into this guy. They call Ulysses S. Grant, that I mean, he just got routed. They took all of his stuff. So I couldn't imagine the morale of the private soldier at that time. Like, you know what I mean? Like anytime like you're a bit like you're without your gear and, and it's cold,

• 1:29:50JD Baker?

  wet and miserable and you don't have your stuff. Like JD's just not a happy camper anymore.

• 1:30:00Jocko Willink?

  So that, that's what happens. I mean, the next day Buell and Grant, even though they're both independent commanders of their own troops, they both go on the attack and they're able to push, they're able to push the Confederates all the way back to, to Corinth. Now this character Nathan Bedford Forrest, he gets assigned to hold rear guard. And a little excerpt here from the book, which I actually read from already too. It's called, it's called Shiloh in Hell Before Night. And there's a section in here worth reading. So,

• 1:30:42Jocko Willink?

  The Confederates are retreating. Nathan Bedford Forrest and his troops are holding rear guard, you know, just trying to keep the pressure off the troops, the Confederates, as they retreat. And this is going to the book. As the federal skirmishers began picking their path through the fallen timbers and became somewhat disorganized and momentarily preoccupied, Forrest seemed to sense it was time to act. Shouting to his men, "Charge!" He led the way as the cavalry thundered toward Sherman's men. Some of the Union skirmishers panicked and fled. Others were blasted by shotguns and pistols as the rebel horsemen rode down, rode them down.

• 1:31:24Jocko Willink?

  The fury of the charge also turned back the 4th Illinois cavalry and Forrest, seemingly carried away by exhilaration of combat, was waving his sword and shouting, "Charge! Charge!" As he kept after them. His men, seeing the strong front of the oncoming brigade, were not following, however, and Forrest was galloping alone directly into the ranks of the main federal force. He should have been killed. Federal infantry swarmed all about him, trying to shoot him or drag him from his horse. The horse was kicking and rearing. Forrest was slashing right and left. Even when a soldier managed to place his gun up against Forrest's hip and pull the

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  trigger, the blast lifting the commander high in his saddle and the bullet lodging against his spine, the action did not unhorse him or stop him. Turning his horse around and clearing a path with his saber, Forrest plowed back in the direction from which he came. As he was emerging from the mass of blue infantry, he reached down, grabbed an enemy soldier by the collar, swung the man onto the horse, and used him as a shield as he galloped away. Once out of range of the Union fire, Forrest flung the man to the ground and rode up to the ridge to the point where his command was waiting in amazement.

• 1:32:47Jocko Willink?

  Sherman too was amazed, as well as disgusted. But that was neither the first nor the last time that that devil Forrest, as Sherman came to call him, cheated death, though perhaps never more spectacularly than at the fallen timbers.

• 1:33:09Jocko Willink?

  So that's what this guy, Nathan Bedford Forrest, he earned a hell of a reputation that day. Now, before we get too excited about the heroics of Nathan Bedford Forrest, we also have to note that this is the guy that founded and started and was the first grand wizard of the KKK. And so when Forrest Gump talks about his great, great, great, great grandfather and talks about him riding around in sheets after he fought in the Civil War, that's what he's talking about. But with that, they were, the Confederates retreated, they were defeated.

• 1:33:50Jocko Willink?

  This is the battle that, you know, like, like you were saying, this, this was sort of now, now we're in the big leagues. At the end of the battle, killed, wounded and missing totaled 24,000 between both sides. And there's a book about the Battle of Shiloh. It's called Seeing the Elephant. And it's written by a guy named Joseph Allen, or two guys, Joseph Allen Frank and George A. Reeves. And they have a footnote about this expression, seeing the elephant, which I think I've mentioned already. And they say in this footnote, seeing the elephant was a euphemism for experiencing combat, the earliest source of which can be traced to the third century B.C.

• 1:34:34Jocko Willink?

  when Alexander the Great's soldiers defected, defeated King Porus's elephant born troops in the Indus Valley. Seeing the elephant. Well, the war had taken a turn at this point, and it was about to get worse. With that, we will continue this journey on the next Civil War excursion. And if you want to support this podcast, go to jocko store.com, jocko fuel.com, originusa.com, echelonfront.com, and theomna.com.

• 1:35:17Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is J D and Jocko. Out.