Revisited: Trevor Noah Makes My Brain Hurt

Hello from Team Simon! We’ll be back next week—January 27, 2026—with brand-new episodes of A Bit of Optimism. We’re excited to bring you new guests, conversations, and opportunities to learn. Until then, we’re diving back into the archives to revisit one of our favorite episodes from 2024, when comedian Trevor Noah joined the show… to get as serious as possible. Most Americans know Trevor as the former host of The Daily Show, a bestselling author, and a stand-up comedian. But his brand of humor isn’t just a barrel of laughs— it’s raw, witty, thought-provoking, and often makes you see the world in a whole new way. In this conversation, Simon and Trevor ditched the small talk (mostly) and went deep into the paradox of choice, the public's response to the murder of United HealthCare's CEO, and why the human experience might be defined by constraint. It will make you chuckle, think, and probably question everything all at once. This… is A Bit of Optimism. --------------------------- For more on Trevor and his work, check out: https://www.trevornoah.com/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Simon Sinek?

  This is a very deep conversation that- You said you don't like small talk. No, no, but people, but I, but I put a, when we promote the podcast, we've got a picture of Trevor Noah and we'll put a little clip and people are like, "I'm gonna listen to this one, it's gonna be so funny." We can still make jokes. I love to think, but more important, I love to think about things that make my head hurt. I like really difficult, complicated things that there's no obvious right or wrong, which means I love people who make me think about those things. And one of the best people who does this is Trevor Noah. You may know Trevor from The Daily Show and as a stand-up comedian and bestselling author. What I love him for is for his intense ability to think about things and see things that the rest of us don't see.

• 0:44Simon Sinek?

  This episode is intense and it'll definitely make you think and it'll definitely make your head hurt, in a good way. This is a bit of optimism.

• 0:55Simon Sinek?

  Trevor, always a joy to see you and sit down with you.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Always fun, my friend.

• 0:58Simon Sinek?

  I've never sat down with you ever, ever, ever and not learned something or had my perspective changed about something because of that insane mind that you have that I so-

• 1:08Speaker 01

  It's a lot of pressure on our conversations now. I feel like one day we should hang out and not talk about anything new or interesting, just so we have like a, you know, we don't want it to be a pressure-

• 1:19Simon Sinek?

  We don't like small talk.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  I actually like small talk.

• 1:22Simon Sinek?

  Do you?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know why? Because maybe like a few years ago, I read on how important small talk is and how in society, we have diminished the value of small talk, but we don't realize that small talk is what connects us as people and big talk is what separates us. So if you have the foundation of a lot of small talk, you find similarities, you exist in the same realities, but then if you only have big talk, then you, it's like large ideas. So when you go, "Man, the weather," the other person goes like, "Ah, I can't believe how beautiful it is." And you're like, "I know, right?" Or you go, "Ah, the weather, ah, it's just, ah, it's been raining, when is it gonna stop?" I know, right? In that moment, it's the craziest thing ever.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  You have literally created reality that you share and now it's easier to say, "How do you plan to vote?" It's wild.

• 2:11Simon Sinek?

  So, so it greases the skids.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 2:14Simon Sinek?

  So I actually like small talk now. You and I haven't spent a lot of time together.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19Simon Sinek?

  I think socially, outside of like seeing each other at conferences and things, we've only ever actually hung out once and it was spontaneous.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  It was.

• 2:27Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. We weren't, we had no plans. That was a crazy day.

• 2:33Simon Sinek?

  I, I, I've, I've texted with you. I've never called you in my life.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39Simon Sinek?

  You've never called me in your life.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  I'm not a big caller.

• 2:41Simon Sinek?

  No, you're not a big caller. And I don't know if, I was driving home and for whatever reason, I decided to call you.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49Simon Sinek?

  And out of the blue, I called you and I'm like, hey, what are you doing? And you said, I'm sitting here at this hotel in Los Angeles and I had just driven past that hotel, turned around and we had a cup of coffee. That's the only time we've ever hung out.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was a great hang.

• 3:02Simon Sinek?

  And yet, I feel, I feel like you're a kindred spirit. I, I love spending time with you and it's not because of small talk. It's because every time I see you, we waste no time and go deep. And if other people happen to be at the table, they'll join in. So this is going against the, the small talk thing.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:23Simon Sinek?

  I can't speak how you feel, but I feel close to you because we always go deep and we find commonality in the deepness and we abandon the small talk.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  But I think it's because we are of a tribe. So I think that's where small talk is crucial for people. Small talk is not necessary for everybody, but it's crucial when you don't know whether or not you're in the same tribe. So from our get go, I was told by somebody, a mutual friend. He said, you have to meet Simon. You're gonna love Simon. You and Simon, wow, you two together. So, and I trust our mutual friends. So I was like, oh yeah. I mean, let's see if he says that we will get along, we'll get along. So it's like, I'll, I'll meet this person and I assume that you know enough about me because we're friends, that I will get along with this person. And so now when we meet, I don't now waste time. If I met you in a different way, I think I would have been a little slower to just jump in with you because I'd be like, I don't know.

• 4:15Simon Sinek?

  Small talk is, I look, I understand the purpose of it and maybe I'm sometimes socially awkward in groups and introverted. I'm not good at small talk. And I start with, like my opening is a yes or no question, which is been here before?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:29Simon Sinek?

  And then, and then my mind goes blank. Panic starts to happen.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Do it, I'm the same as you. So I genuinely love doing the things that I'm not good at. And then trying to get comfortable in the spaces that I'm uncomfortable. And so what I'll actively try and do, like my first instinct when I walk into a room is to find a corner.

• 4:48Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  That's my first instinct.

• 4:50Simon Sinek?

  Or find somebody I know or a corner. Either one of those is fine.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Corner immediately.

• 4:54Simon Sinek?

  Agreed.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  And then I, and then I enjoy the room from there.

• 4:57Simon Sinek?

  You'll find me by the buffet because I can disappear and just fill up a plate with food.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  You're just going to roost the food.

• 5:03Simon Sinek?

  I'll, I'll fill up a plate.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, okay. I thought you just go stand at the buffet.

• 5:06Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no, no. My point is it gives me something to do that doesn't look like I'm awkwardly trying to not engage.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:12Simon Sinek?

  It looks like I'm just trying to get food.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Okay, I see that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:15Simon Sinek?

  And then I can sit down and eat.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, so that's my instinct.

• 5:18Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  But I, but I realized over time, I was like, okay, I asked myself a question. I was like, all right, Trevor, why are you uncomfortable? I was like, well, I, I'm uncomfortable because I assume that people don't want to talk to me. And I assume that I'm taking up unnecessary space and I assume that these people will reject me and I assume and I assume. So based on all those assumptions, I, through a lot of therapy and I guess a little bit of introspection, I started realizing I'm making assumptions about how the world sees me before the world has told me how it sees me.

• 5:46Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  So I just take a moment to see if the opposite is true. And then what I try to do as much as possible, which is hard, and you and I do talk about this, is I don't make it about the outcome. So I don't go, if I go speak to people, they will like me. Or if I go speak to people, I'll become friends with them. I just walk in and I think to myself, all right, try your best. Just have a small talk conversation with this person. And I'll walk in and I'll go, wow, those are really cool shoes. And the person's like, oh, thank you, thank you. And then I'm like, why did you choose those shoes for this outfit? And then they'll go, ah, well, you know, it's actually funny. And you'll be shocked at people and they, and you, you get into the world and you're like, oh, this is an interesting party. You know, I'm awkward. And then they'll be like, oh, I have fun here.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  I know it, it's amazing how the world is not oftentimes what you think it is. It's just what you've told yourself it is. Because I always wonder what it's like for somebody like you. People consume so much of you, whether it's your writing, whether it's your videos, whether it's like, I wonder how many times people don't give you the opportunity. To start or have a middling conversation because they just jump straight into like a conversation with your work.

• 6:54Simon Sinek?

  Which is actually, as an introvert, it's actually been very helpful.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Oh, you like that?

• 6:58Simon Sinek?

  It's been very helpful because I'm no longer required to start conversations. And people are very nice when they, when they come up to me. But what's interesting, and you just touched upon this, which is they have assumptions about who I am, what I like, what I do, how I may live my life, because they judge me through my work. And for example, people think that I've read every book and that I read every book, right? And they talk to me with that assumption. They're like, anyway, this book, I'm sure you've read it. You know, they'll literally say that to me. And the thing that I held a lot of shame for for many years, and I never was public about it until pretty recently, is I read no books. I have seriously bad ADHD. I've started a lot of books. I finished one book, excluding having to read my own because I had to.

• 7:43Simon Sinek?

  But I've only read one book cover to cover my entire life, and that was Da Vinci Code, which is so good. But I struggle to read. And so people just assume because I'm, I write things and I talk about things, that I just voraciously consume books.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:00Simon Sinek?

  And I hear people talk about it like with incredible judgment, like people who don't read or, you know, no, and then I'm like, you know?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:06Simon Sinek?

  I'm curious what misperceptions people have about you because of the persona that you, they have of you.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  I'll say this, everyone's assumption of me is based on the world that they know me from. So I've, I've realized I don't have a common assumption. So South Africans, I think, have like the best idea of who I am as Trevor. Because their understanding of me was formed through like a sort of natural relationship. I hosted TV shows in South Africa. I, I did stand up comedy. I, you know, was in interviews or what. So people had an idea of who this person is.

• 8:41Simon Sinek?

  Did you have fame in South Africa before you came here?

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I always tell people, I go like, South Africa is my country in that way. I'm, I'm lucky that I have that as my country. They have like a, like a solid idea of me. A lot of Americans knew me only as Daily Show guy. So they had this fixed assumption of me. Some still do, and I've learned this by meeting people. It always come in the form of like a backhanded-ish compliment, but which I still appreciate. You know, someone will come up to me with a firm handshake and they'll go, you know, I uh, I didn't expect to enjoy anything you said because I don't agree with a lot of your politics, but I uh, I gotta say, I, I, I really enjoyed your, your piece. It was, it was good. It was, that was really good. Thank you.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  And I'm like, oh, well, thank you very much. I'm glad you enjoy. I'm even, I'm even, I'm even impressed that as a person you are able to see beyond what you thought you didn't like about me.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  I think that's a high compliment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so there's some people who see me as like a, just like a hyper partisan political person who only exists in one world, you know? One of the craziest ones that happened to me is I was in Miami and I was in a strip club for a friend's bachelor party. And some guy in the strip club walks past me and he, he looked at me in the eye and then he's like, Donald Trump, twenty twenty-four. That's literally what he screamed at me. And then he looked and I could see he was looking at me. Yeah. Like he thought it was gonna shatter my world. Yeah. And I looked at him and I was like, and? And he said, do you hear what I said? Trump twenty twenty-four. I was like, okay.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  And he said, yeah, what do you think about that? I said, my friend, we're in a strip club right now. The last thing I'm thinking about is a presidential candidate. And I said, and you need to ask yourself what your priorities are if you're thinking about Donald Trump while you're in a strip club. I was just like, what are you doing? And I, but then I understood. I was like, all right, you've, you've distilled me to this. So I think people have. They misperceive you as being partisan. Some people think I'm only political. Some people think I'm only partisan. Some people, people think I'm only comedian. But what about your personality? But what about your personality? Like, it, it still depends, funny enough. Like I said, like the fact that people think I. Some people think I'm only argumentative. Some people think I'm only affable, but it all depends on where they've seen me. Because the other frequent one that I get is people think I'm very organized.

• 11:03Simon Sinek?

  Like, if you come to my house.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  I can see that, though.

• 11:05Simon Sinek?

  If you come to my house, my house is much like my brain, which is, it's filled with shit. I love art and I, like, if there's an empty wall.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:15Simon Sinek?

  I'm filling it. Like, there's no empty walls. There's color, there's stuff, there's piles. I'm not organized. A friend of mine used to call me a surface abuser. If, if there was a horizontal surface anywhere near me, I would fill it. And it not necessarily in an organized way, like papers, piles of papers, you know, bowls of things. So like, my dining room table, I go through these phases where it gets to the point where you can't see that I have a dining room table. And I'm like, I hate this, and I like, clean everything.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, I mean, that's common for AHD.

• 11:45Simon Sinek?

  People think I'm, people think I'm super, super organized. And I just think it's really funny, like, the impression that people have of me judged through the work.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:53Simon Sinek?

  And I wonder if you have the same experience, which is, I think that's part of the appeal that people have for my work, which is when they discover that I'm not Ivy League school educated, read everything, like, a book a day, you know, that I'm actually more normal and average. That I think that's one of the reasons I think people relate to it, which is I'm, I'm not that thing that they think that I am. And I wonder if that's the same for you.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  I, I actually think it's the other way around for me, funny enough. So I think what will happen sometimes is people have, and this is not, this is not unique to me. People have a misconception about comedians, I think a lot of people do. So a lot of people think that comedians are like non-stop goofing clown people. Do you know what I mean? They think we're just like walking around from room to room like.

• 12:42Simon Sinek?

  But in reality, it's, it's depression.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  That's what they think, yeah. It's a navigation of depression.

• 12:47Simon Sinek?

  Sorry.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the navigation of depression.

• 12:49Simon Sinek?

  A lot of, a lot of depression.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, wha- what it is, funny enough, is, so people will, will meet me sometimes and they'll be like, ugh. Someone once said to me, they were like, ugh, you're a lot more fun on TV. And I said, yes, I'm I'm sitting in an airplane right now. We're all quiet. You think I'm just gonna be turning to all the other passengers and be like, let me tell you about the time. No, we're on an airplane.

• 13:16Simon Sinek?

  Anybody here from Cleveland? Cleveland, anyone?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:19Simon Sinek?

  This is the funny thing about show business, right? Which is they associate your character with who you are.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yes. But but it's but the thing is, it's one side of me.

• 13:26Simon Sinek?

  You're a comedian.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  It's one side of me.

• 13:28Simon Sinek?

  So they want you to be funny all the time.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Yes, it's one side of me.

• 13:30Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  And I try and explain this to people who, even if they're curious enough to ask the question. They go, hey, you're a lot more quiet than I thought. You seem a lot more introspective, or you seem... I go, yeah, because what I'm expressing is the culmination of what I've consumed, but I need to consume. So I spend most of my time quiet. I spend most of my time observing. I spend most of my time listening, actually.

• 13:49Simon Sinek?

  My experience of you, the few times we've hung out, is you're exactly the same publicly and privately. And it's one of my favorite things about you.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  In terms of my personality.

• 14:00Simon Sinek?

  When I see you on TV.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:02Simon Sinek?

  Or on a stage, I'm like, that's what he's like off the stage and off the camera.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  I I hope so.

• 14:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  I'll tell you why, though, for me. There's a thing that I experienced a very long time ago when I was first starting comedy and stand up and all of these things. Where, this was in South Africa, I bumped into some people who were comedians and they were popular. And they were really funny and they were like a nice guy image and all of it. And then I met them, even in the comedy industry, and I was like, wow, what a mean asshole. Like, what a, like, the way they treated people. But like, this person was like, it's me, you know, the good guy. And I was just like, wow, what a, oh, that sucked. And beyond the moral judgments of it, I remember thinking to myself, it must suck to have to constantly pretend to be someone and then have to act like the person you're pretending to be. That's what I would often think to myself.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  And so then what I thought was, even for like my comedy, I wanted to be able to get on stage and even tell the audience, I'm having a terrible day, but not have them go, whoa, this is not what we signed up for. But my goal was, and still is, to give you the best version of Trevor when I'm on stage. What you see of me on stage is like, that's how I'm at my best when I'm with my friends, making everyone laugh. That's how I am with like a group of people where we're thinking and going through crazy concepts and ideas. That's the best of me. So what I aim to do is sort of aim for the best of me. And then if I don't hit it, I don't hit it, but you get what I'm saying.

• 15:30Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, it's a striving.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I don't I don't exist as as one.

• 15:33Simon Sinek?

  You have an uncanny self-awareness. You notice the patterns and the absurdities in your own life. When you talk about them out loud, sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're interesting. But I think what they do is the ways in which you found to navigate life or understand yourself are also valuable to us.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 15:52Simon Sinek?

  And they're valuable to your friends because you're seeing things that the rest of us are missing. So like, what are some of the lessons that you've learned that have helped you navigate the world? That you think have have had value in the lives of of your friends or of others?

• 16:09Speaker 01

  I think the biggest thing I've learned that has given me the most reward has been consideration. I'm not always able to execute on it. As in like, I I don't always make the best decisions. I don't always make the right decisions. Sometimes I don't know at the time, or sometimes I do. But I I do know I always work from the place of consideration.

• 16:32Simon Sinek?

  Explain what that means or give an example.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  When I was growing up, my mom drilled into me through her actions as well, not just through her words, that we were always to consider others, always, always, always, always, always, always. So like everywhere my mom went on like the route that she would drive to work, to church, to you name it. Every single homeless person knew her in like a wonderful way. They give her a nickname. They'd be like, oh, Mamso, which means like, like, it's like a a a nickname version of like mama, you know? I was like, hey, Mamso, yeah, how are you? Yeah, Mamso, I need shoes. Yeah, Mamso. And they like know her. They like know her. And they know her in like a human way. It's it was really interesting to me. But she would just consider.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  We would be lucky enough to eat out at like a, you know, because we didn't always when I was growing up, but sometimes we would. And she would say to me, eh, stop eating. She'd be like, you're full. She said, let's save that. This is a lot of food. We can give this to the guy on the way home. And we would do that. And I'm just a kid watching this, do you know what I mean? And she would go, there's an old man who's our neighbor. His grass, his grass is getting too long. We must, we must go help him cut the grass. And I was like, this lady is insane. We're gonna cut somebody else's grass? We're just doing this. He didn't even ask us, by the way. He didn't even seem to appreciate that we were going to do it, by the way. And I remember that this one really sticks with me prominently because she said to me, I said, why are we doing this? Like genuinely, what are we, this is just torture. And she said, by considering others, you, you are also able to consider yourself.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  And she said, if this man doesn't cut his grass, you know what's gonna happen? There's gonna be rats in his yard. And she said, and you know where the rats go? They're gonna come to our house as well. And so she said, I'm cutting his grass for him, but I'm also cutting his grass for us. And so we can live in a world where we say, we don't cut grass for other people. Or we can live in a world where we say, if I'm able to, I'll cut their grass. So that I also don't experience the rats. And so she said, so we are able, so I'm gonna cut that grass. And I was like, ah, I still don't know about this. But, and you know this, I mean, better than most people, but the modeling that a parent showed, like the things they show you, for good or bad, you learn. I was very loud and very big and, but she knows that. You know, she knows that she's even embarrassing for me when, you know, when I'm like a kid in high school. She's like, oh, your mother embarrasses you.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Even that for me, I think was, was a beautiful thing to experience as a child. Because it showed me that she at least considered how she was affecting me. Now, she didn't change it, you know? She was like, oh, you must be so ashamed. Oh, you look at your mother, I come in, I'm dirty and the car is horrible and, oh, you must be so ashamed. Oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And she wouldn't change it, but at least I knew.

• 19:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, she was aware.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so I, I think that for me has been the biggest thing.

• 19:15Simon Sinek?

  That's a nice one. The alternative is so funny. I'm just sort of playing the cutting the grass example, which is, you know, we don't help the neighbor cut the grass. The rats come and then we scream and yell and call the authorities so that he'll deal with his rat problem.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Simon Sinek?

  And the irony is, is like a little bit of generosity, a little bit of kindness to your mother's point of view.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's consideration.

• 19:33Simon Sinek?

  A little bit of consideration.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:34Simon Sinek?

  And this is a theme that comes up almost every time you and I talk, which is community.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:40Simon Sinek?

  And that's all that is. I think it's funny, when people have less in lower income neighborhoods, people sit on the front porch and raise each other's kids.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:49Simon Sinek?

  And then as soon as you have wealth.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  You move in.

• 19:51Simon Sinek?

  You move in the backyard and you sue your neighbor because their branches are hanging over your fence. It is amazing how, when you have less, community is survival.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:01Simon Sinek?

  Right, because both parents have to go to work and we can't afford childcare. But we can rely on the neighbors. Whereas when you have all the luxuries and you can afford all of the help, you don't even know the names of your neighbors because you don't need to.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:15Simon Sinek?

  If we look at the society we live in now, where we feel so closed off from everybody, because this has become the American dream, which is to go to the backyard and block everybody else off. We've become so insulated that we now are desperate for that feeling of community and belonging, and we're sort of struggling to find it and looking for anywhere to get it.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:34Simon Sinek?

  And you see it on the political left and on the on the political right, whether it's anti-Israel or anti-vax, like I'm gonna latch on to anything I can that makes me feel good about belonging to some sort of community, and you get all the feels. I feel like my life has purpose and I'm making good friends and I'm sacrificing and all these things, but for the fact that it won't last. Like, these aren't lifelong commitments to something.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Okay, so here's what I here's what I think it is. I don't think that those things are unnatural. I don't think that it's zero sum. I don't think it's gonna be one or the other.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  People always have their politics. People always gravitate towards certain issues. People always form and find different alliances and allegiances. This is the human experience, right? I think the thing that's different now is we have fewer spaces where we blend all of those worlds into something else. Does this make sense? So I think one of the things we're losing as time moves is we're losing communal, community spaces.

• 21:39Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Where.

• 21:41Simon Sinek?

  A place to come together.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Us being part of it.

• 21:44Simon Sinek?

  Church.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but even not church, because I'm saying church is like also an extension of it, in my opinion. I think what it is, is it's a space where people are allowed to be and are expected to be regardless of how they think, or regardless of what they choose, because the choice has sort of been made for them. Okay? So. I often think to myself, one of the greatest gifts and curses a person can get is the ability to leave their hometown.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Because you leave your hometown, and now you choose to go live somewhere else. When you've chosen to go live somewhere else, you're now going to encounter other people who've also chosen to go, but they didn't choose to live next to you, and you didn't choose to live next to them. And so now you go, I hate my neighbor. I wish they would move. I hate my neighbor. I need to move. I hate this neighborhood. I need to get out. I hate this neighborhood. I wish they would change it. But you exist in a state of constantly wishing for the thing or the people around you to change, because you believe it's possible.

• 22:41Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  But there's very few people who have that same expression about like where they're from from.

• 22:47Simon Sinek?

  Oh, that's such a great insight.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Do you understand?

• 22:49Simon Sinek?

  Home is home.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  You just go like, this is what it is. So you go, where are you from? Ah, I'm from a little town in the middle of wherever. And I go like, you go like, oh yeah, Jimbo. Yeah, man, Jimbo's like this and he's like that. And actually, oh, Mary, I don't like Mary, because she's always saying these things to my mom.

• 23:05Simon Sinek?

  You don't wish for them to move, you don't wish to.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  You don't even, you don't hear people, you don't hear people say that. Ah, I wish Mary would move. Move where?

• 23:12Simon Sinek?

  Oh.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Move where?

• 23:13Simon Sinek?

  This is such a great insight.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Like, move where?

• 23:16Simon Sinek?

  Which is the blessing and curse of, of basically what an urban center is.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, because.

• 23:20Simon Sinek?

  Which is there's too much choice.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Yes, and the main thing is, you have been told there is a choice of community. And I think what it does is, it fundamentally undermines our belief or our ability to understand that you can coexist with people you don't agree with.

• 23:36Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Because now you cannot exist with them.

• 23:39Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  So I, I say this to my friends all the time, and I think you know this about me away from mics and cameras. I encourage friends to bring up the things that they don't agree about. Because your friends you trust, your friends you love, your friends are a community that you know want the best for you.

• 23:55Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  So I think it's important to have discussions where you don't agree, because then you can always fall back on the things that you do agree on.

• 24:00Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Right? You can have what I call like healthy fights. And so I'm still friends with my friends who are pro-Israel.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Some people don't like that about me. They go like, how could you? Then I go like, yes, but also, how could I not? Then I'm also friends with my friends who are pro Palestine. And then my pro-Israel friends are like, how could you? Then I go like, I understand why you say that, but I go, how could I not? Because I fundamentally believe genuinely, whether it's at the level of leadership, whether it's at the level of you and your life. If you cannot find a way to exist despite the things you're disagreeing on, and because there'll be many of them, and some are like the most extreme and some aren't. So please, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying, I'm not talking about kumbaya. I'm just saying there are many things where you sort of have to accept. And so when I was growing up in South Africa, and we were living at my grandmother's house in Soeweto,

• 24:51Speaker 01

  black people couldn't leave Soeweto. It wasn't like a thing. This is the southwestern township. This is where you've been put by the apartheid government. You cannot leave it. So what do you do? You live. You know your neighbor always plays music loud on a Saturday morning when they're cleaning their stoop. Oh, man. You just know this. Maybe you complain once or twice, but you like know this. You know every Friday night, there's gonna be a bunch of guys who drive cars that have loud exhausts. They're gonna do this every Friday. They get paid, they get drunk, they do this. Ah! And the weirdest thing happened. You knew that you didn't like it, but you also accepted the reality that you were in. And I found it was like, in a weird way, more tolerable. You know what I mean? People even tolerated each other and then found a connection with each other.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  You could even tell shit to that person. You're like, ah, here you come with your, you know, ah, man, on Fri- I don't look forward to seeing you. Guy will be like, ah, Baba, don't talk about my car like that. Why you? You're just like, yeah, man, you guys with your cars, or you with your radio, or you with your... And I don't know how to explain it, but there's something necessary, in fact, in my opinion, in being able to say to somebody, these edges of yours, they don't work with mine. But I also have to learn that other people have edges.

• 26:05Simon Sinek?

  So now it raises the question, how do we create that community?

• 26:08Speaker 01

  I don't know that we can anymore, to be honest.

• 26:10Simon Sinek?

  The thing that you had in common is there's a shared enemy. Right, which is apartheid South Africa.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  No, but I I take it away. I don't even think people thought that, to be honest with you.

• 26:20Simon Sinek?

  No, I don't think it's conscious. I don't think we think, ah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm saying even, that's what I'm saying. Let's take the word enemy away. What we shared is we didn't have a choice, Simon. This is, so that's why I'm saying, take enemy away.

• 26:29Simon Sinek?

  Okay, okay, okay. Stated a different way.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:32Simon Sinek?

  Yes. What you shared is you didn't have a choice.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  We shared this non-choice.

• 26:36Simon Sinek?

  And so, and so when given no choice, you have to make it work.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  If a plane crashes and everyone survives and everyone's on this island together. We cannot now say, how did you vote in the midterms?

• 26:49Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Hey, man, it doesn't matter right now.

• 26:52Simon Sinek?

  We have to make it work.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  I need you to get those coconuts. I need you to help us build a raft.

• 26:56Simon Sinek?

  So what is it about our current society that we don't feel we have to make it work? Because it's not like you can just sort of execute half the country and be like, oh, finally, they're gone, you know? Short of half the country moving to one part and the other half moving to another part.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:11Simon Sinek?

  Like, what is it about the current society that we don't feel like we have to cooperate?

• 27:18Speaker 01

  That's what I mean, is the gift and the curse. We got the choice. It's impossible to go back from choice. And it's one of the great dilemmas.

• 27:23Simon Sinek?

  You can't ignore the apartheid government. You can't ignore.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  No, no, no, but remember.

• 27:28Simon Sinek?

  There was a confining.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So, so water.

• 27:31Simon Sinek?

  Uh, uh, uh, power.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Water is a, the ocean is a confining factor. We are the people of this land. And then someone builds a ship and it's like, well, now do you want to be the people of this land? Because you can go somewhere else. And then what happens? Someone goes like, I'm gonna go to this America place because I don't like how the English are treating me.

• 27:47Simon Sinek?

  So what's that wetter neighborhood like now that people can leave and travel? Are they as tolerant as they used to be?

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Now, what's interesting is, I would argue, and because I don't spend as much time there anymore since my grandmother passed. I don't think that it's the same, but I still think a lot of it is the same. Because now the thing that's forced people is class and income.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  So still, many people are forced.

• 28:14Simon Sinek?

  So the confining force has changed.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  That's why I said, forget the force.

• 28:17Simon Sinek?

  I understand, but there's still a confining force.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 28:20Simon Sinek?

  It went from government policy to a

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, socioeconomic.

• 28:23Simon Sinek?

  To socioeconomic.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so now, people cannot, the people who cannot afford to move out of Soweto, still live in Soweto, and the people who have left have left. And just from my little anecdotal experiment and my anecdotal experiences, they're lonelier, they are sadder, they feel more isolated, they feel less purpose, they're caught up in like a drive that never ends, but they've just got, and it's amazing to see, they have more than every generation that came before them.

• 28:50Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  And wow, Simon, they are like, ah, ah, ooh, and it's amazing to see, and I think, this is the thing that's tough, is like, you can't undo getting something, right? I grew up religious, and what I loved about the Bible is, whether you think it's real or not, the stories are fantastic, they truly are. Once you have eaten the apple in the Garden of Eden, you cannot unsee that you are naked. And that's like, almost what God like tells Adam and Eve, he's like, oh, you guys messed up, man. Before this, you didn't know you needed clothes.

• 29:21Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  And now you will spend every day thinking, I am naked. And he's like, that's why I didn't want you to eat the apple, but you guys ate the apple. This is the paradox of choice.

• 29:30Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. The temptation is to conclude that it's money. The temptation is to say, but once you have wealth.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:39Simon Sinek?

  But I think that it's more like the absence of struggle. In the cases, there's some sort of hardship that, in all of your,

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Let me think about this.

• 29:48Simon Sinek?

  Your plane crash example, Soweto example.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  So.

• 29:51Simon Sinek?

  It's like, as hardship is relieved, and choice is a relief of hardship, then for some reason, our ability to cooperate and put up with each other seems to go down.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  So I will agree with one part of it, I still come back to, I don't even think it's hardship. I think it's just the constraining factor. Here's why I say this. Let's say, there is an island of mega-rich people, and they go hang out together, and they're on this mega-rich island, and they do whatever they want to do. Right? It's the mega-rich, they're having a great time.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  If they are confined or constrained in some way, they will find the same thing and they do find it temporarily. So if you you've maybe been to them, I've visited them on occasion. But you know, you get these places where people go to these like golf resorts and it's like, wow, what is this place? And in that place, I have found people have a different level of community, a different level of enjoyment, a different level of, you know, it's like people buzzing around on golf carts and people meeting, and there's only the four restaurants. And all you can do is choose from one of the four. And so you just rotate, I will do the Spanish place on Monday and then, we always love doing the Italian place on Wednesdays and.

• 31:15Simon Sinek?

  I'll have the eggs again.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. Because all of a sudden you're constrained. So there's this weird thing that happens. I even think about it for my life as I go, the great curse is gonna be the choice. The great curse is gonna be knowing that you can choose. So how do you create artificial constraint for yourself to help yourself? Because I don't think it's about hardship at all. I think you can have a good time together. But if you cannot change the people or the situation, it changes your ability to appreciate or get along with the change or the situation.

• 31:45Simon Sinek?

  So there's a story about a shoe salesman in Los Angeles in the nineteen fifty's. I can't remember his name. But he was a very successful entrepreneur who owned a whole bunch of women's shoe stores.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:55Simon Sinek?

  A journalist asked him, what's your secret? And he said, two, not three. And they're like, what do you mean? He goes, if a woman comes into my store, I'll bring her a pair of shoes. She'll try them on. And she'll say, could I see that pair, please? And I'll bring her a second pair of shoes. And she said, could I also see that pair, please? And she and he'll say, which one would you like me to take away?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 32:17Simon Sinek?

  Because what he found is when they had a choice of three, they bought none. And when they had a choice of two, they bought one.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Ah, I love that.

• 32:25Simon Sinek?

  Right? Two, not three. Too much choice is overwhelming.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I need to apply that to my life. You see, that's brilliant. I love it when people find the nexus of what of how you're supposed to do it. Because I understood it as a concept, but that's a it's a nice way to think about it for anything, really.

• 32:39Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, and so what I've started doing in my life is I've added constraint, right? And I didn't even realize it until we're talking right now, which is like I've got all these options on the table. Pick, I mean, it doesn't matter what it is.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, I know what you mean.

• 32:52Simon Sinek?

  And what I'll start doing is I'll start pairing them off. I'll be like, okay, between these two, okay, get rid of that one. Okay, between these two, okay, get rid of that one, between these two, and the choices become really easy. And then I get to the final two, I'm like, oh, it's obvious, it's that one. Whereas I'm looking at six, or five, or four, or three. And I'm like, ah, but this one gives me this and that one, and I'm playing them off and doing sort of, you know, pros and cons.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that.

• 33:15Simon Sinek?

  But it's it's you know, the trick of the flipping the coin?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:18Simon Sinek?

  You know, I don't know, should I do this or that? And you like flip a coin.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you accept fate's decision.

• 33:22Simon Sinek?

  Well, the question is, do you want to flip again? It's whether you're satisfied with the coin flip or not. And it works every time when people are stuck between a choice. And you force them to flip a coin, you say the coin decides. And if they're happy with what the coin decides, they go with it. And if they're unhappy, then obviously go with the other one.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yes, because I think to that point, because we are so terrified of making the wrong choice. And rightly so, by the way. If you're living your life well, you don't want to make the wrong choice.

• 33:46Simon Sinek?

  No.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  That's why, you know, when you book something, you go sort by price. Because you're like, okay, I'll make it a price choice, because the world has told me that price is the most important. But if they added other ones, I mean, like Google flights does this.

• 33:57Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  They'll go, oh, here's duration, and you're like, oh, well, time is more important to me than the price.

• 34:01Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  And another one will be like, sort by best value. And you're like, okay, I'll go for value. What is the price relative to what it normally costs, etc. But they at least give you something to give you like a clear distinction.

• 34:11Simon Sinek?

  And you only look at the first few, because that's whatever your hierarchy is. This idea of constraint is really important. So the question is, is like, how do we add constraint at a social level, at a societal level?

• 34:22Simon Sinek?

  In order to help people better find community or at least get along. And maybe that's not possible.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  I think I think it happens naturally, whether we like it or not. It's the unnatural, natural order of things.

• 34:33Simon Sinek?

  But it seems not to be happening right now.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, because exactly your last two words. Right now. We love everything right now in life. Everything is right now. Right? People think this, and I don't agree. I think it's always goes to where are you zooming in and where are you zooming out? Like genuinely, where are you zooming in? And when are you zooming out? Right? Because I think of like. Man, everything, whether it's markets or whether it's countries or whether it's the world or whether it's. Yeah, it's it's terrible, but it's the best it's ever been, but it's it depends on and I will never minimize someone's experience because it's the moment that you're in. The moment that you're in is the most important moment for most of us. And then the larger thing is how you aggregate all of the moments and what you think of or how you remember them. So when I think of the right now, I go.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Let's use an example, which is a crazy example, I'm acknowledging this. But let's look at the United Healthcare CEO who was assassinated.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I found it fascinating. And I'll throw all the disclaimers out there. So let's just say this is me using like what I like to call like my lab hands.

• 35:36Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  I'm thinking of this more like a.

• 35:38Simon Sinek?

  This is a this is a thought experiment.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:40Simon Sinek?

  Not not a social commentary.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, forget, forget all of it. I just go like, wow. What a crazy moment where one person was killed. And I would argue most of the country. Was united in in their joy, elation, frustration.

• 36:00Simon Sinek?

  Or at least being quote unquote, fine with it.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Schadenfreude or whatever you want.

• 36:04Simon Sinek?

  Weird.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I I think to myself, wow, what just happened here?

• 36:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  I'm willing to bet if you asked, let's say we did a cross section or, you know, we we selected people from all walks of life. Who are happy or fine or celebrated or whatever it was. We asked those people, hey, what are you, uh? What are you happy about here? What are you? Or let's do it this way. You said to them separately. Do you like it when people get killed? They go, no, no, no. I'm willing to bet all of them would say no.

• 36:33Simon Sinek?

  Hundred percent against murder.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you go like, uh, do you like it when people don't like how the world is going? And so they shoot someone. They'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. That's chaos. That's anarchy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And if you broke this incident down into many different things, they would basically say no to all of it.

• 36:47Simon Sinek?

  Hundred percent.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  So then I found myself asking, what was it about the collective action that brought so many different people together? In a country where we're constantly told people are not together, right? We're always told, America's more polarized than ever. America's more polarized than ever. And I go, but why weren't they polarized about this?

• 37:05Simon Sinek?

  And what's your conclusion?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  My conclusion is, everybody is experiencing the same constraints. Whether you are a rich person or whether you're a poor person, the healthcare industry in America has constrained you to living in a world where you don't know whether you're going to be able to pay for the next bill, where you don't know if you'll go broke because of an incident. You don't know if you'll have as enough.

• 37:29Simon Sinek?

  Even just the frustration of being forced to jump through hoops after hoops after hoops.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter who you. And imagine that. Even a rich person goes, ah, the healthcare industry. And so in a way, in this moment, because of this action, we got to see how that constraint works. You're like, oh, because everyone is constrained to this. They are all then having the same experience. They're coming together in ways that nobody thought people could. And again, as I say, I'm not like happy by how it happened.

• 37:55Simon Sinek?

  No, no, no, of course, of course. It's an observation. But the, the, the last time I saw this happen, and again, it's an extreme example, but it's just data, right? Was after September 11th. After September 11th, there was this big concern that the Muslim world hated America. And so there was research done. They went to the moderate, average Arab on the street in Egypt and Jordan. And they asked them, what do you think about September 11th? A huge, a huge number said, I think what happened was apparent. I think it's terrible. And then they added, but I understand it. And that's the part that I found very scary, which is the minute that a rational person can rationalize an abhorrent behavior. There's something under the surface that has to be addressed.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 38:36Simon Sinek?

  But I understand it.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:37Simon Sinek?

  And this is, this is what's happening now with this assassination, which is, I think murder is horrible. I think that his family loss is horrible, horrible. But I understand it.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:46Simon Sinek?

  And it's that part that we need to explore. And we all know what it is, which is what's happening in the insurance industry in the United States has become so unjust and so unbalanced. That we are able to rationalize and let go of our ethics and morals because of this. The opportunity is to somehow understand how it got to this place and try and back away from it. Because the last thing we want is for these unjust experiences to happen in the world and, and then you have vigilante justice is the only way to calm. Because what it is, is frustration. It's the schadenfreude. It's an alleviation of frustration. Like, I can't solve this problem. I'm still stuck in this problem.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:24Simon Sinek?

  But I feel like I got some relief.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:27Simon Sinek?

  Which is a horrible thought.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  But it, but is it though? And think of it, okay, let's flip it the other way around.

• 39:33Simon Sinek?

  Horrible, I think we keep saying that because we don't want to be.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but let's flip it the other way around. This is again, what this made me think about. What are laws? What are laws fundamentally? If not, how a society wishes.

• 39:46Simon Sinek?

  Constraints on, you know, we agreed upon constraints on, on, on our behavior.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Laws are fundamentally a fence that we build around a yard.

• 39:54Simon Sinek?

  That we choose to agree to, yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  So we all go, where's the fence?

• 39:57Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  For everything. Where's the fence for the speed limit? Where's the fence for shooting a person or not shooting? Where's the fence for food?

• 40:04Simon Sinek?

  And if I go outside that fence, I know there's a consequence.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  And.

• 40:07Simon Sinek?

  And we agree to the fence, right?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Then what happens? Because of how power isn't equally shared, because of how some people are able to manipulate, all of a sudden.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Somebody's jumping over the fence and you're like, hey. And the person's like, yeah, well, look how big I am.

• 40:24Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  I'm a corporation. And you're like, yeah, but we agreed on the fence. And they're like, yeah, well, I I didn't break the fence. I just climb over it. And you're like, I mean, yeah, but we we. The whole point of the fence is that you're not supposed to get over it. And they're like, no, no, the law says I'm not allowed to break the fence, but I can climb over the fence. And then what happens to the people? If they can't do anything within the fence.

• 40:45Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  They then go, OK, look, you get over the fence. I can't get over the fence. And then one person, this kid allegedly goes, actually, you know what? I'm just gonna break the fence.

• 40:54Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  And so then people go. Actually, in a weird way, and this is what's so complicated for people to understand, especially people if they're in like power or whatever. Because of how close it is to them, they panic. We're gonna live in a world where there's just chaos and and. Do you know why so many people agreed with it? Because it wasn't chaos. I think that's what a lot of people are missing. And I'm not saying I'm for it, but I'm saying.

• 41:15Simon Sinek?

  No, I understand.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  We miss it if we don't realize it wasn't chaos.

• 41:17Simon Sinek?

  You and I are not, we're trying to understand.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yes, why people understand.

• 41:21Simon Sinek?

  Why people understand. And we're trying to understand why people are fine.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:26Simon Sinek?

  Or at least. Able to rationalize it away.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yes, because I go, they are. In many ways going. If this had happened to anyone else or to anything else, we would then apply the rules and the. But just like a legal system.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  How we respond to the situation will change depending on how the person is responding.

• 41:48Simon Sinek?

  People are missing is is that he's he's not a he's not a father or a husband. He's a symbol.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yes, and an active participant, more than just the symbol. You you're the CEO.

• 41:58Simon Sinek?

  But the people feel.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:00Simon Sinek?

  A moral rebalancing.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Completely, yeah, completely. And this is why I say in the same way, funny enough.

• 42:05Simon Sinek?

  Like, quote unquote, that seems fair, which, do you know the concept of ethical fading?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:09Simon Sinek?

  So ethical fading is a concept where we're able to rationalize unethical behavior. And there's a few things that contribute to ethical fading. We see this inside. Corporations, we see inside governments. So one of the things that contributes to ethical fading is sort of peer pressure. Like, well, everyone's doing it.

• 42:28Simon Sinek?

  I mean, if I'm not gonna do it, they're gonna do it and they're gonna have the advantage and I won't, so, right? The other one is, that's what my boss wants. It's what I need to, it's what I need to do. The other one is sort of self-talk, that rationalizing, like, I gotta put food on the table.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 42:43Simon Sinek?

  Like, I have no choice, right? And then there's the slippery slope. Well, he did it, nothing happened to him, so why can I do it? And when cultures with weak leaders allow ethical fading to happen, what you do is you get Wells Fargo with people opening up fake bank accounts to hit their numbers.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:59Simon Sinek?

  They all know it's wrong. What you do is you get pharmaceutical companies who have patents on essential drugs, raising the prices five hundred percent, a thousand percent, fifteen hundred percent. What you get is insurance companies saying, we'll pay for your anesthetic, up to one hour of surgery, anything more than one hour, it's on you.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, knowing that most surgeries are not gonna be that hour.

• 43:16Simon Sinek?

  Like, they, and they pull numbers out of their ass, and everybody knows it's wrong. It's unethical. But in weakly-led companies, good people, because we say things like, how can they sleep at night? They sleep fine, right? Like, good people are able to rationalize away unethical behavior. If we're really honest with ourselves and we peel away the onion from a lot of companies, and I think it's particularly egregious in public companies, ethical fading runs rampant in America today.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:44Simon Sinek?

  And I think what we're starting to see is a responding to that. In the rise of populism and the rationalizing of apparent behavior, because we're seeing a rebalancing of, you did something so unethical to us? Eh, one point on this side of the team, one point to the powerless.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:01Simon Sinek?

  Right? And the question that we have to ask as a society is, yes, he'll go to jail and justice will be done because he went outside the fence. But we have to address the thing, but I understand it. If we don't, all the fears the executives have will all come true unless we actually address the, but I understand it. But I. Who's gonna do that?

• 44:24Speaker 01

  I would also argue this, though. And maybe, okay, maybe I'll start by asking you this.

• 44:28Simon Sinek?

  This is a very deep conversation that.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  You said you don't like small talk.

• 44:31Simon Sinek?

  No, no, but people, but I, but I put a, you know, when we, when we promote the podcast, we've got a picture of Trevor Noah, and we'll put a little clip, and people are like, I'm gonna listen to this one, it's gonna be so funny.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  We can still make jokes.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  So here's the question I have for you. Do you think that this alleged shooter, do you think that that was an ethical fading?

• 44:54Simon Sinek?

  No, I think the ethical fading happens on the side of the insurance companies.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Okay, so you don't think it's of the like, the people who even like, go like, yes, we're fine with this.

• 45:01Simon Sinek?

  Oh, that's actually interesting. It's on both sides because we are rationalizing. We are okay. So the ethical fading is, I mean.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  No, I'm asking.

• 45:08Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, no, no, I'm thinking. I don't, I'm not a hundred percent sure of the answer. So, because the definition is our ability to do unethical things, make decisions outside of our ethical frameworks, rationalizing that they're okay.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:21Simon Sinek?

  And so I guess, yes.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  So you see, that's where I don't think so. So this is what I mean. So this is what I've been wrestling with.

• 45:31Simon Sinek?

  No, I know, you know why no?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Okay, go.

• 45:33Simon Sinek?

  He knew what he was doing was illegal. He knew what he was.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Okay, yes.

• 45:37Simon Sinek?

  He had an awareness that what he's about to do is illegal, which is why he took all the steps to hide himself. Whereas in the companies, there is literally a, like, no, no, no, everything's fine, everything's fine.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  But they know, I argue.

• 45:48Simon Sinek?

  Deep, deep, they know.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  I don't even think deep. I think shallow they know. Okay, here's why. Here's what I think it is. Let's stick on the healthcare industry because this is like, really where most people, I think, have a loathing. You know, where people, what's brought people together?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Let's take a step back from this story that was in the news. Let's look at like, the opioid crisis. Where millions of Americans.

• 46:13Simon Sinek?

  Died.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Died, lost family. We always forget like, the secondary effects, right? We always think of the earthquake, we forget about the aftershock. Think of everybody who lost a family member. We know what that does to a family. A breadwinner disappears. What does that do to the kids? What happens when a community has breadwinners that disappear, right? And then we look at the people who benefited the most from it and what happened to them. Arguably, nothing. Oh, they got, they lost a little bit of money. Not all their money, by the way. Not all their money. A little bit of their money. I always found it particularly interesting that El Chapo would be arrested.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  And the US government would take all of the money that they could, all of it. And go like, yeah, it's ill-gotten money. They wouldn't go like, well, El Chapo, some of this you earned from interest. And some of this you earned from other ventures that aren't actually drugs. And some of, they just go like, no, no, we're taking all your money. But then for the Sackler family, they don't take all their money. They go like, I pay a fine. Do you know what I mean? Pay a fine. Why not all their money as well? Look at what they did and look at how many people were affected, not even jail. And so what starts to happen then, I think, and this is what I think we have to grapple with as a society is beyond like the, this is what I always try and talk to people in power about is I go,

• 47:36Speaker 01

  it is easy when you are close to power to assume that the actions of the powerless are devoid of morality because you have the levers of power. And so power responds to you accordingly, right? But when people live in a country where their healthcare gets denied, they pay insurance believing they will be insured. And then only when they're on their deathbed do they get tricked out of it. People are like, what has happened here? And then the recourse is almost nothing, there's nothing you can do. The difficult thing for us to grasp is when do we say that a person has done something wrong? I always think about this with history, it like blows my mind.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  The British did not think that the Americans were heroes. They did not think that, right? When Paul Revere and all these people are riding around on horses, the British aren't like, ah, these heroes, man, these heroes. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, of start terrorists. The Spanish did not go like, ah, Che Guevara, what a hero. Fighting for his people, ah, Che Guevara, doing his thing, you know what I mean? History is littered with examples of people who did the wrong thing by the confines of what that current time agreed on. And then afterwards, the people were like, this was for the greater good. And so this is what, this is why I say I'm wrestling with it. I'm wrestling because it is a complicated thing.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Because I, the one side of my brain as Trevor goes, hey, man. I don't wanna live in a world where someone goes around shooting somebody because they feel like the thing doesn't work the way they would like it to and it's affected them. I don't want that, you know what I mean? And I would argue that's what a lot of, let's say, even gang violence is. You did me wrong, I'm gonna shoot you, or, you know, the mob did the same thing.

• 49:21Simon Sinek?

  Vigilante justice is not a thing we agreed to.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  That's, there's one side of my brain that says that, as Trevor, completely. Then the other side of my brain goes, yes, but

• 49:29Speaker 01

  we don't seem to have mechanisms that work effectively for when large bodies do these things. So what do we do? Someone be like, oh, with the legals, but we've seen it doesn't work. So it's like, what do people do? And I think that's, that's why I'm so interested in answering the question, because I think CEOs of, let's even just stick in the healthcare industry, because that's where the thing is aimed, by the way. It's not, like, I love how they're gonna try and make it seem like it's CEOs. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's, let's be honest, yeah. The CEO of Ben and Jerry's is fine. They don't have to get any extra security. None whatsoever. Don't try rope CEOs in. Let's make it industry specific.

• 50:09Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 50:10Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  This is like a, this is like a dictator being like, us world leaders, we have such a tough time getting the people, and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 50:17Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  There's world leaders in this.

• 50:18Simon Sinek?

  You know what Stalin said, right? Which is the death of one man is a tragedy and the death of a million is a statistic.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:23Simon Sinek?

  And that's what we're dealing with here. You're dealing with the emotions of a person with a name and a face.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:28Simon Sinek?

  And the emotion of that versus the statistic of how many people have suffered as a result. And you, and it's very hard to compare thousands to somebody with a name and a face. One is emotional and the other one is rational.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, that's why I think it's important for us, whenever those types of things happen. I think it's important for us, if we, if we wanna think of ourselves as thinkers, we have to then go, hmm, what is this actually telling us about society? Like, if I was a lawmaker in Washington, I'm thinking less about the fact that a person was killed, and I'm thinking more about why my population, for the most part, thinks that it was everything from understandable to great.

• 51:04Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  That's what I would be thinking of, I'd go like, ooh.

• 51:07Simon Sinek?

  Because the people, exactly. I think at the base level, I understand it.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Do you see what I'm saying?

• 51:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, and I think, so unfortunately, we, we all understand it.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  That's the thing. And now if I'm a CEO of a health insurance company or whatever, Yes, as much as I'll think about getting security, the thing I would think is like, whoa.

• 51:23Simon Sinek?

  How do we change with the way we do business?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. Do I want this company to be a thing that the majority of a country wishes death upon? Whoa.

• 51:35Simon Sinek?

  You have just defined politics in America, which is regardless of who you, somebody voted for. If you just look at the way people voted, and if you don't understand why they voted for it, then you don't understand what has to be fixed in America.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:50Simon Sinek?

  The person who voted for Trump can say, I can tell you why I voted.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 51:54Simon Sinek?

  And the person who didn't vote for Trump has to be able to say, but I understand it.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Because it, or, or even, I would even say this, though. I sometimes pose it this way to people who, who don't agree with that. They'll go, no, I don't understand how you could, because they go, because the, the Democrats have a more robust policy for doing that, and they're gonna bring the poor up. So I go, okay, let's do it another way then. Let's actually do it another way. I, I don't force you to understand. Let's, let's do it another way.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Would you agree that this person's concern is real? So now, let's not say that they did or didn't do the thing. Let's not, let's not say that you like, because you'll go like, no, but it's not true, it's, uh.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Do you agree that there are fewer jobs and people have fewer opportunities?

• 52:39Simon Sinek?

  And the disparity is greater.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  And they can't catch up with inflation and towns are, you know, falling into disrepair and they're becoming, do you agree with that? Yes, but I, Trump's not gonna fix it. Ah, okay, great, but at least now, you may not, quote unquote, understand, but you do see that these things are real. And I think this is what we struggle with sometimes in life is, we don't realize that issues are real. Politics are an imagined way to solve the issues, right? But the issue's there. Issue's like a pothole. It exists.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  The politics is arguing about who pays for the pothole or how we get to fix the pothole. But the pothole is very real. And so I think sometimes what we do is we don't spend enough time just acknowledging the pothole. And we spend more time arguing about why the other person thinks the pothole should be filled with sand instead of concrete. But if we just spent a little more time on that, and I've said this to any Democrat I meet who's in power or whatever, I go, why don't you just make your thing irresistible? You know, it's the same way I would say like Americans as a concept of democracy. I'm like, just make it irresistible. That everybody wants it. You won't have to force, you know what's irresistible? Movies. Have you noticed that you don't have to go to any country and vomit to force them to watch The Avengers? Have you noticed that? You know how you know this, Simon? People bootleg movies.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. America has never had to fly to a communist country, to a socialist country. They've never had to fly to any of them. To force them to watch movies. And drop DVDs on them and be like, you watch these movies. Those people have bootlegged them and translated them into their language without you forcing them. Why? Because that thing was amazing. The film industry made something that was irresistible. And if you make something that is good, people will want it, right? And because Ben and Jerry's is good. People will want it. And so I go, think of it like that. Make everything good. So I say as a Democrat, if you are a Democrat, I go like, okay, just find the states where you control. You're the governor, you are the senator, you are the mayor. Just make it good.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  So then make your state so irresistible that people are like, I want my state like that one. I'm either going there or I like my state like that one. As opposed to saying, we could, we could. Because I don't think that the one has to wait for the other. And I think that's something that we take for granted is if the thing is good, people, yo, people are always going to come for a thing that is good. You don't have to force them to believe in it. This is a perfect place to end this. This was good. And hopefully we won't have to force anybody to come to it.

• 55:07Simon Sinek?

  The problem with talking to you is I never want it to end. I have endless energy. My brain hurts a little bit and I really love it. It's like, you know, you go to the gym and you get muscle pain. You're like, ah, it's good, you know? That's how my brain feels right now. And I absolutely love it.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  The feeling is mutual, my friend.

• 55:26Simon Sinek?

  Every time I sit down with you, I said it at the beginning, I'll say it at the end. I absolutely, absolutely love talking to you. You have an insight into how the world works and how people work clearer than most people in the world. Such a joy, such a joy, such a joy.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  It really is, it's mutual. That's why I love sitting with you and.

• 55:41Simon Sinek?

  No small talk.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah, I mean, a little bit, but maybe, maybe that's what makes our conversations so great is that at some point they have to end. And so that constraint.

• 55:49Simon Sinek?

  Constraint.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Is what keeps them being amazing.

• 55:51Simon Sinek?

  It's exactly, if we did it all the time, it wouldn't be as fun.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Thank you, my friend.

• 55:55Simon Sinek?

  Thank you.

• 55:57Simon Sinek?

  A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. Lovingly produced by our team Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simoncinek.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself, take care of each other.