Laying in the Weeds | EP 4 | Season 3

Cindy has a simple explanation for her son’s injury, but the boy’s father, stepmother and grandmother told investigators a completely different story. All three met with the Steamboat Springs Police Department and shared a much darker version. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. For more Burden of Guilt, follow us on Instagram @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 3:19Nancy Glass?

  September 30, 2019, is a day Kenny Hamp will never forget. He was fresh off a Hawaiian vacation with his fiancee, Cyndi. And then, that afternoon, he was arrested and thrown in jail.

• 3:35Nancy Glass?

  Kenny was charged with child abuse. At the time, he believed it was all related to a false allegation that he gave Cyndi's nine-year-old boy a wedgie.

• 3:46Speaker 07

  I thought it was like the most comical mistake ever. I mean, this is a misdemeanor arrest over a wedgie. This is just going to blow over. This was pretty silly.

• 3:56Nancy Glass?

  After Kenny was released from jail, his lawyer asked him to talk. Kenny remembers the strange and really uncomfortable look on his lawyer's face.

• 4:06Speaker 07

  He goes, "Did you do it?" And I'm like, "Do what? Did you give him a wedgie?" I was like, "No, there's no wedgie. If there was a wedgie, I would have easily admitted it." So the answer is no.

• 4:20Nancy Glass?

  What followed was a question Kenny never expected to hear.

• 4:24Speaker 07

  "Did you sexually abuse a kid?" I was like, "What are you talking about? Sexually abuse a kid?" "No, absolutely not." And he goes, "Well, that's where they're trying to take it, Kenny." And I'm just like, "You gotta be shitting me. This is getting scary." And he goes, "Yes, and we have to take this seriously."

• 4:43Nancy Glass?

  So how did Kenny find himself in this mess? Well, you've heard his and Cyndi's version of what happened the week they were in Hawaii. Now you're going to hear another version of the story.

• 5:03Nancy Glass?

  I'm Nettie Glass, and this is Season 3 of Burden of Guilt. Episode 4, Laying in the Weeds.

• 5:14Nancy Glass?

  Before Cyndi met Kenny, she was married to Steve. She and Steve dated for seven years before they got married. They had three children, a girl and twin boys. Together, they also built a multimillion-dollar business in the fracking industry. But after 11 years of marriage, Cyndi and Steve divorced. And that divorce was finalized in February of 2016. Afterwards, Steve quickly moved on. In fact, the same day he signed his divorce papers, he met Christine. And two years later, Steve and Christine were married.

• 5:53Nancy Glass?

  Christine, a decorator, was 40 years old when she met Steve, at the time she was separated and going through a divorce of her own. Three weeks after meeting Steve, she said she knew she was falling in love. And about a month into their relationship, Steve introduced Christine to his three children. Christine had a son from her first marriage. So when she married Steve in 2018, she became a stepmother to Steve's three children, and Steve became a stepfather to Christine's son.

• 6:29Nancy Glass?

  The morning of Thursday, September 26, 2019, is an important day in this story. That day, Cyndi and Kenny were in Hawaii. Meanwhile, Steve and Christine were at the Steamboat Springs Police Department. We've obtained a video recording of that meeting, and we'll play you the audio.

• 6:52Nancy Glass?

  Thanks for coming back in. That's the voice of Detective Jordan Cyfers. He's the one tasked with investigating allegations that Kenny abused one of the nine-year-old boys. Now, keep in mind, this meeting happened just a few hours after Cyndi sent a text to her daughter saying they had something special to share. Steve's second wife, Christine, happened to see that message.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  There was a message sent, quite a few messages from Cyndi yesterday. I could see the preview. It was like, "Kenny and I have great news. Call..." But that was it. I couldn't read. So I'm sure they've gotten married, is what I'm expecting.

• 7:30Nancy Glass?

  Christine may have believed that Cyndi and Kenny eloped to Hawaii, but according to Cyndi and Kenny, they simply got engaged on the trip. Then the conversation returned to the wedgie investigation.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  His hiney's still hurting. He was complaining a lot on the way home last night about his hiney.

• 7:49Nancy Glass?

  Christine said she first learned about her stepson's injury about a week earlier, on their ninth birthdays.

• 7:58Nancy Glass?

  The day before, Cyndi got the boys' big kid bikes as presents. That's her theory of how the injury happened in the first place. They were riding their new bikes around the neighborhood.

• 8:11Nancy Glass?

  The next morning, Cyndi dropped the kids off at school, and then she and Kenny left for Hawaii. And that afternoon, Christine picked the boys up.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  We were on a tight crunch to get the kids picked up and get on the plane for their birthdays.

• 8:26Nancy Glass?

  Steve's mother, Alada, said that's when she first noticed something was wrong with her grandson.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  Apparently, he had said something to her during the lunch opening the birthday presents.

• 8:38Nancy Glass?

  But curiously, Alada didn't mention it to anyone else. The group then headed to the airport to fly to Las Vegas, and that's when Christine first learned of the boys' injury.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  When we got on the plane, he said Kenny gave me an awful wedgie, and my hiney hurts. And I said, "Well, I can't do anything about it on the plane, but when we get in private, Daddy and I will have a look."

• 9:01Nancy Glass?

  Christine said she texted that information to her husband, Steve, but since they were in the air, she didn't know if it went through. Once they got to Las Vegas, things got hectic.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  I booked an Air P and B that was supposed to have this great view of the Strip.

• 9:19Nancy Glass?

  Well, it didn't have that view. So Steve changed their reservation and booked a hotel. And with all that going on, Steve said he didn't learn of his son's injury until later that evening.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  I just didn't, I didn't do my job. I didn't. So that's on me.

• 9:37Nancy Glass?

  When they all returned to their hotel that night, Steve said that's when he first saw his son's injury, and he also took a photo.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  So the first picture was taken on Friday at 10:32 PM.

• 9:52Nancy Glass?

  Less than an hour later, Steve took four additional photos. But Steve and Christine said they didn't seek medical attention.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Steve and I were like, "Do we take him here? Do we..." Like, we didn't know. We just didn't know what to do.

• 10:06Nancy Glass?

  Ultimately, at no time during that weekend in Las Vegas did they take the boy to urgent care or an ER.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  I think we're shocked, like, that this could have happened. You know, this is, this is brand new. We'd never been in this position before.

• 10:21Nancy Glass?

  They flew back home to Steamboat Springs. And then that night, the strange FaceTime call happened with Cyndi and the kids. Here's what Cyndi said.

• 10:31Speaker 05

  I said, "Hey, how was your weekend? Blah, blah, blah. How was your birthday?" Said it was great. My one son jumps on and goes, "Kenny, you gave me a wedgie." And then he just jumps right on.

• 10:41Nancy Glass?

  And Kenny looks at me and goes, what was that about? And I said, I don't know. I didn't think much about it.

• 10:48Nancy Glass?

  The following morning, Steve began a series of back and forth messages with Cindy. They were communicating through a court ordered and supervised app called Our Family Wizard. It's often used by families who are in the middle of a contentious custody arrangement. Okay, I have to warn you that the contents of Steve's messages are at times graphic, but these details are important to the story, or we wouldn't be sharing them. So Steve starts the conversation by saying their son appeared to have an injury and was going to see his pediatrician, Dr. Sheila Fountain. A voice actor will read what Steve wrote.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  He is complaining of anal pain and is constipated. He's having difficulty sitting, has severe itching, and complained of discharge. He came home to me in this condition.

• 11:42Nancy Glass?

  Steve said the wedgie happened a week earlier and left an abrasion and lesions that caused their son not to go to the bathroom for a week. After some back and forth about what could have caused this, Steve asked his ex-wife Cindy a pointed question.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  Your caregiver, Mr. Hamp, gave him a big wedgie. Are you aware of this action by Mr. Hamp?

• 12:07Nancy Glass?

  Cindy didn't engage with the question. She said, maybe the kid's underwear was on too tight. She told us she believes Steve was trying to fabricate a medical problem as a way to distract her from her romantic Hawaiian trip. After their son's appointment with Dr. Fountain, Steve reported back to Cindy.

• 12:28Speaker 04

  What I can tell you is Dr. Fountain is sufficiently concerned that we are going back to her office today for a second exam that will include swabs to test for strep, STDs, and X-ray, et cetera.

• 12:42Nancy Glass?

  Strep, STDs, et cetera? When Cindy read this, she told me she thought this was absurd, almost laughable. But it wasn't a joke to Steve. His note to his ex-wife continued.

• 12:55Speaker 04

  You will note that I have made no claims, did not call DHS, and did not call the police or involve lawyers. I have contacted his physician and you. This matter is now in Dr. Fountain's court, and it will be up to her regarding how to proceed.

• 13:14Nancy Glass?

  We shared some of Dr. Fountain's observations in the last episode, and I want to share some more. Keep in mind, these notes are based solely on what Steve told Dr. Fountain, not what she observed. We had a voice actor read these notes, and as a reminder, we won't use the names of the children. Per father of the child, the patient's older sister admits to watching porn on several occasions with Kenny. The patient's brother has admitted to father of the child that he has been watching gay porn at his mom's house with her boyfriend Kenny. Father of child feels that the patient's brother is ostracized at mom's house because he has become vocal about not wanting to go there.

• 13:57Nancy Glass?

  As you may recall, that appointment caused Dr. Fountain's office to contact DHS about possible child abuse. And this case landed on the desk of Kamala Height. Kamala was actually at the Steamboat Springs Police Department for the meeting Steve and Christine had with Detective Cypher's. There, she asked Steve an important question, and he didn't miss a beat.

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• 14:30Speaker 02

  For custody of the children.

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• 17:56Nancy Glass?

  By September 26, 2019, there were two different investigations into Kenny Hamp. They were both looking into allegations that he abused one of Cindy's nine-year-old boys. Now, bear in mind, this is all going on while Cindy and Kenny are in Hawaii, and they have no idea about any of it. One investigation was handled by Detective Jordan Cypher's of the Steamboat Springs Police Department. The second investigation included Colorado's Department of Human Services. The caseworker investigating was Kamala Height. Here's Kamala explaining her role to Steve and Christine.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  So I'm investigating sex abuse right now. However, if I determine in the middle of my investigation or assessment that there's something else going on, like a physical abuse incident with the wedgie, then I would add that as an allegation.

• 18:57Nancy Glass?

  We reached out to Kamala, but she declined our request for an interview. Instead, she sent us this email. Based on the confidential nature of casework, I never discuss specific work I've done with families. Thank you in advance for respecting this.

• 19:16Nancy Glass?

  According to the court documents, one of Kamala's first calls was to Cindy's ex-husband, Steve. In Kamala's notes from that call, she wrote that the first thing Steve said was he had been waiting for this phone call for many years. He later said he believed the word "wedgie" might be code for something, and that there were reported concerns his children had been watching pornography with Kenny. Steve brought that up again to Kamala during their meeting at the Steamboat Springs Police Department. What about the porn? I mean, that's a crime, right?

• 19:53Speaker 00

  So we do not have any information from interviews that indicates that he's watching porn with Kenny.

• 20:01Speaker 05

  Being shown porn by Kenny. The only information we got was that something popped up accidentally.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:07Speaker 05

  And it was managed, it sounds like, appropriately.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Okay, we'll back off.

• 20:12Nancy Glass?

  So the police refer to this as an investigation. The DHS calls it an assessment. And Kamala had 60 days to complete her assessment. Here's Steve asking her about that process.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  What's your caseload like? Does it take 60 days to do this typically? Or?

• 20:31Speaker 05

  I would say it doesn't even have to do with my caseload. It just usually takes 60 days because we like to be thorough.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 20:37Speaker 05

  And so I just try to gather as much information as possible.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  I didn't realize I had like 30 cases going.

• 20:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, I do not have 30 cases. But I usually get up there to the 60 days. We all do. And I do have concerns. I do have concerns about the kids' emotional well-being. And so I'm going to want to get more information on that in Cindy's home.

• 21:00Nancy Glass?

  At the time of this incident, Kamala had been a caseworker with the Child Welfare Team for five years. Here's Christine talking with Kamala.

• 21:10Speaker 00

  Personally, I just want to tell you the kind of parents that we are. And I think that it'll come across in all of this. I mean, I'm passionate about getting their childhood right. They have suffered plenty. So they are our priority. We have the money. We have the devotion. We have the energy. We have the intelligence, the emotional intelligence, to get this right by them. This is the single most important job we will ever have in our lives. And we take it seriously.

• 21:39Speaker 05

  And I see that.

• 21:41Nancy Glass?

  Steve and Christine came to this meeting at the police headquarters with a stack of paperwork. Eventually, they brought up what those papers were.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Do you want to go through the data that we have real quick? So at least they know.

• 21:56Speaker 05

  What is the data? Can you tell us what it is?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  You have yours. Why don't you go ahead and hand out yours? And then I'll hand out mine. This was for me, correct?

• 22:06Nancy Glass?

  Steve and Christine then started sifting through this stack of paperwork that included something Christine called a post-trial journal. Kamala looked confused and immediately questioned them.

• 22:20Speaker 05

  Why do you guys feel? I mean, it's a lot of documentation, right? And I understand. I get why. But has someone advised you to document all this? Like, do you feel like you're not?

• 22:32Speaker 00

  We went in a big custody trial last year.

• 22:36Nancy Glass?

  So here's the story about that big custody trial. A year earlier, Steve filed a motion to change parenting arrangements. He wanted Cindy's parenting time to be supervised. Ultimately, the judge denied Steve's request.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  If I would have had supervised parenting time, this wouldn't have happened. I knew something was going to happen. I knew it.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  We've kind of lost hope. I've kind of lost hope. Like, why am I documenting? Nobody fucking cares.

• 23:07Nancy Glass?

  During this meeting at police headquarters, Steve floated the idea of filing an emergency motion to keep the children away from Cindy while the police and DHS complete their respective investigations.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Part of what we're doing is I'm documenting everything. That I'm setting up for the next phase. Because, look, here we are, right? This shit's going to keep happening. So, you know, we're not like laying in the weeds, but we kind of are. You know, I don't want to do this, but we don't have a choice.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  We have the makings for the most magical, miraculous, beautiful family ever. And we have this little dark cloud that circles around us all the time, making hell. And any opportunity, using the children to make hell, not any opportunity that you can get.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  I'm not this asshole, like, just trying to pull these kids away from Cindy. I don't think they're safe.

• 24:04Nancy Glass?

  Now, the day before this meeting at police headquarters, Steve's son had an exam with a sexual assault nurse. Detective Cypher's hadn't received the results of that exam yet, but Steve said he knew exactly what the nurse was going to say.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  She's going to say that what she saw yesterday, it was inconclusive. As seen yesterday, there was nothing. And she said the pictures are what had her concern. You know, that there was just a lot of things there that were questionable.

• 24:36Nancy Glass?

  Those pictures Steve's referring to are the ones he took in Vegas. Steve said he asked the nurse this direct question.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Like, just take off your nurse hat for a moment, right? And just talk to me as a parent. What do you think? She's like, yeah. She goes, there's something. She said, I can't prove it. And I don't know what it is. But she's like, that ain't a wedgie. So I think that's the one thing everybody agrees, is that it's not a wedgie.

• 25:02Speaker 05

  So that actually is not the case.

• 25:04Nancy Glass?

  Kamala jumped in and quickly corrected Steve.

• 25:07Speaker 05

  I talked to the nurse at Sheila Fountain's office this morning. And I would like to talk to Dr. Fountain directly.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:15Speaker 05

  And I'm waiting to get the notes. But it sounds like what the nurse reported to me today is that those injuries could have been consistent with a wedgie, but they were only going based, they could only see your pictures. Because at the point where [BLEEP] was seen on Monday, they didn't see any anomalies, is the word she used. And she said it, like, the lesions or, I don't know if it's lesion abrasion, but those things could be the result of constipation.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:42Speaker 05

  I guess there was an X-ray.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:44Speaker 05

  That showed a backup of stool. But she also said it could have been because of something else.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:50Speaker 05

  So this is where I'm at. It could have been caused by the wedgie. It could have been caused by constipation. Or it could be caused by something else.

• 25:57Nancy Glass?

  In other words, there were still a lot of unanswered questions.

• 26:02Speaker 05

  I want to interview Cindy and talk to her and interview Kenny.

• 26:08Nancy Glass?

  Kamala would call Cindy later that same week. And Cindy, who was still at Hawaii at the time, didn't understand what was going on at home or why it was happening. And Kamala admitted she was only in the beginning of her investigation.

• 26:24Speaker 05

  I'm still unclear on some stuff. And I'm definitely going to do follow-up with the doctor.

• 26:29Nancy Glass?

  It's important to repeat that Dr. Fountain didn't see any injury to the boy when she examined him. That meant those pictures Steve took in Las Vegas were the only physical proof of an injury. Kamala planned to talk not only with Dr. Fountain, but with the boy, to hear in his own words what happened.

• 26:51Speaker 05

  And it is extremely important right now that the kids are not getting questioned about what is going on and feeling like they're going to get in trouble. We try in our interviews to promote honesty. And that can be really hard for kids if they're being told otherwise by an adult in their life that they love and care about.

• 27:10Nancy Glass?

  Well, that interview is very eye-opening. And we're going to share what was said in the next episode.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  The question that would get asked is, is it in the best interest of the children to be away from their mother? I mean, what is your professional opinion right now? Do you have an opinion on where the children should be? And I know I'm making you uncomfortable.

• 27:31Speaker 05

  No, you're not making me uncomfortable. I answer this question all the time. It doesn't make me uncomfortable. Right now, with the information that I have, I'm already considering whether or not I have to safety plan and/or come up with some agreement that the kids can remain in your care while I continue gathering information for my assessment. That's my answer.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Okay, that's all I need to hear.

• 27:54Nancy Glass?

  For the time being, Kamala wanted the kids to remain solely with Steve and Christine.

• 28:01Speaker 05

  How I navigate this is in the best interest of the kids. And obviously, if you're going to take action, I'll want to know about that and see what ends up happening because that might depend on how I end up doing it.

• 28:14Nancy Glass?

  By action, Kamala is referring to an illegal action Steve planned to take.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  So I'm going to honor the integrity of the investigation. And if there's a warrant issued, then we're going to file a motion to hold those kids away from her until things settle down.

• 28:31Nancy Glass?

  As for the criminal investigation, Steve asked Detective Cypher's if there was enough to charge Kenny with a crime. Here's what Detective Cypher's had to say. Right now, with the information we have, I don't think we have enough for the sexual assault.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:46Speaker 07

  But in my mind, I think we have enough for child abuse.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 28:51Speaker 07

  It's pretty much causing injury to a child. Whether it was the wedgie or whether it was something else, there were still.

• 28:59Nancy Glass?

  Injury that happened. Is this a criminal act? Yes. Yes. Um, it's a misdemeanor one. Okay, what does that mean? In Colorado, a misdemeanor one carries a maximum sentence of 364 days in county jail, a fine of up to $1,000, or both. And again, as we heard in previous episodes, that's what Kenny was first charged with. It's the highest misdemeanor that can be charged? That Thursday afternoon, Detective Cypher's got the arrest warrant for Kenny. And once Cindy and Kenny returned from Hawaii, well, you know what happened next. I need you to go ahead and turn around and place your hands behind your back, okay?

• 29:42Nancy Glass?

  You are under arrest. But Cindy's ex-husband, Steve, and his wife Christine were still convinced that it was much more serious than a wedgie. And a few days after Kenny was arrested, someone else walked into the Steamboat Police Department with critical information.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  He's been telling me that, um, he's afraid of Kenny.

• 30:05Nancy Glass?

  That's the voice of Steve's 74-year-old mother, Alada.

• 30:09Speaker 03

  And he's scared. He's scared to go back there. We're just, we're worried to death.

• 30:18Speaker 01

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• 32:43Speaker 03

  I'm glad I asked for help.

• 32:45Speaker 04

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  Rexulti.

• 32:58Nancy Glass?

  The day after Kenny was arrested, while he was sitting in a jail cell, Steve and Christine returned to the Steamboat Springs Police Department, and they had another meeting with Detective Jordan Cypher's. But this time, they were joined by Steve's mother, Alada. We obtained a video recording of that meeting. The meeting began with Alada apologizing for calling Detective Cypher's Justin instead of Jordan.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  Jordan and I have been calling you Justin.

• 33:33Nancy Glass?

  That's okay. I'll go by whatever you want. That's all right.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  Son, okay?

• 33:39Nancy Glass?

  Sorry?

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Son?

• 33:43Nancy Glass?

  That was a little hard to hear, but Alada asked if she could call Detective Cypher's "son." There was some nervous laughter, and the detective said he was all ears. So I'll go ahead and just let you leave whatever you want to talk about?

• 33:58Speaker 03

  I'm just trying to tell you what I heard.

• 34:01Nancy Glass?

  Alada said she had some critical information that she was ready to share with the police. Her story starts on the twins' birthday, the day her grandson first mentioned something was wrong.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Steve and Christine picked the kids up at school. We were going to Las Vegas the same day, flying out. And Christine had lunch for the kids. They came in.

• 34:24Nancy Glass?

  Just a warning. What you're about to hear is graphic, and we are also removing the child's name.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  walked in and he was walking with his legs apart, which he never does. And I thought, you know, that's really strange. So I took him over to the side of the table where their gifts were. And I said, "What's wrong? Why are you walking away?" And he said, "My body hurts." And I said, "Why?" I said, "What's wrong?" And he said, "Kenny hurt me." I goes, "Okay." I said, "How did he hurt you?" And he said, "He gave me a really hard wedgie." So we left right after lunch, went to the airport, flew into Las Vegas. And it worried me the whole trip, because that's not normal. So I went to Steve, and I told Steve. And I said, " has told me that Kenny hurt him

• 35:16Speaker 03

  and that he can't get his legs together. I said, "Something's wrong." So Steve then took him in and took photos of him, and he had anal bruising. You don't get that from wedgie.

• 35:29Nancy Glass?

  You can see on the video that as the boy's grandmother started sharing this story, Steve and Christine just looked on quietly. Steve ran his fingers along his cellphone, which was sitting in front of him, and Christine stared at Alada with an open notebook and pen in front of her.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  And so, another time after that, told me that Kenny had put something hard in his behind. And it told me it felt like it, but his body was getting ripped apart.

• 36:03Nancy Glass?

  What Alada said goes well beyond getting a wedgie. And according to her, her grandson disclosed this on the weekend they were in Las Vegas, which was anywhere from nine to 11 days before this meeting with police.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  And then told me again, it was just a day or so ago, that Kenny had hurt him. I said, "Are you afraid of him?" He said, "Yes, I don't want to be around him anymore." In my opinion, he's been grooming this little boy. When a child speaks, you need to listen. You need to really hear this. Then we saw it. We saw his backside. We saw what it looked like. And, and this, listen now. There was a tear back there. There was a small blister in there. And he had anal bruising. And he's scared. He's scared to go back there. And he told me, he says, "Nanny, I just wish I could live with you." Because he feels safe there. And I said, "What you..." He said, "Well, Daddy.

• 37:03Speaker 03

  I want to be with Daddy," he said. And he said, "I want to go back there." And I said, "You need to speak to people that can help you." I said, "Your dad has done everything that's humanly possible to try to, try to help you through this. But you're going to have to speak up and use your words." Nobody told to say these things. Nobody. These are his words. And I swear to that, I will take a lie detector test, but everything needs to be done. This is 100% true. And this child's been abused.

• 37:37Nancy Glass?

  Steve leaned back on his chair as his mother continued.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  And Cindy does nothing. Cindy's neglectful. This man, I believe she's just picked him off the street for companionship.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  She didn't, she didn't know what she was bringing in around these kids. Didn't care. All, all she does is run and play. She's never worked, she won't burp. He don't either. They just travel and, and play. And these kids are neglected. They're terribly neglected emotionally and now physically.

• 38:12Nancy Glass?

  Alada said she feared for the children's safety.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  She could take these kids and run. She's that stupid.

• 38:20Nancy Glass?

  And although Alada didn't have anything nice to say about Steve's ex-wife Cindy, she did praise his second wife Christine, who was in the room.

• 38:29Speaker 03

  Christine's best mother to these kids. We are so blessed to have this woman in our life. She loves them, she holds them, she takes care of them.

• 38:40Nancy Glass?

  Detective Cypher's asked Alada to put everything she said into an email and send it to him. Steve then mentioned the volume of emails he had been sending in.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  I don't mean to flood you, but I do mean to flood you. And, and that's what's tough. I am getting all your emails. I don't expect a response. I'm, I'm keeping them, but a lot of that is going to be DHS stuff. Okay.

• 39:02Nancy Glass?

  Steve then mentioned another witness, someone who wasn't a family member.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Dave Mars, um, he's a teacher. He's, he's a family friend, jujitsu instructor. So he's really entangled in these kids' lives.

• 39:18Nancy Glass?

  Steve said that on the previous Sunday, Dave Mars came to a barbecue at Alada's. And during that barbecue, the nine-year-old talked to him.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  I was not there and [BLEEP] just said it. Kenny put something hard into my butt.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  He's also written a letter that we're attaching to a motion today.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  I'm vowing to have the kids removed from Cindy. Okay.

• 39:45Nancy Glass?

  And this is where Steve showed Detective Cypher's just how serious he was.

• 39:53Nancy Glass?

  In the motion Steve filed that day, he claimed his son told multiple witnesses that Kenny had physically and sexually assaulted him. Attached to that motion was the letter from the boy's teacher. He also attached a letter from the boy's therapist, recommending that the children stay with Steve pending the outcome of the DHS investigation.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  How do we get Cindy? Is there a crime that's been carried that you've been? Not yet. Not yet.

• 40:23Nancy Glass?

  That morning, Alada, Steve and Christine spent just over a half hour meeting with Detective Cypher's. Alada seemed especially concerned for her grandson.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  I hope you know that we're just, we're worried to death.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  I, I can see that. I understand that.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  We love these kids. They're our life. They are our life. And we're scared.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  I can see that. Um, I'm doing everything I can.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  I believe you are. I want you to believe us.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  I do, I do.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  [BLEEP] is crying for help. He, these are his words, but he's not coached.

• 41:01Nancy Glass?

  It's striking how Alada says that because that would soon become the central question in this whole case, had the kids been coached.

• 41:18Nancy Glass?

  At one point, Steve got a phone call from Kamala, the DHS caseworker, and he stepped out of the room. When Steve came back, he seemed agitated. He asked Detective Cypher's another pointed question.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  I mean, what would it take? What is the threshold to get Cindy Jordan? I can't answer that. There's just, for, for what? Exactly. That's, that's the question. It's a detective, right? Because Kamala just told me, she's like, she's like, you're not going to like this. I don't have enough.

• 41:48Nancy Glass?

  Steve doesn't clearly state why Kamala doesn't have enough, but he said this about his son.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  He's afraid to talk to Kamala because he, he doesn't know her. He's telling the whole family. You know, Kenny put something hard in my butt. And, you know, likewise, he keeps waffling on Cindy. And, but I mean, I guess you would have charged her. I know you, I just like, God, it's like, how can you be complicit in this as a parent and not be culpable criminally?

• 42:15Nancy Glass?

  Steve then questioned what would happen to Kenny.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Could he get jail time for this? I don't know. I don't like to speculate on that kind of stuff because it really isn't up to me. He's a bum. Yeah, a child molester.

• 42:30Nancy Glass?

  He sounded a little different, but just to be clear, that was Steve, who just called Kenny a bum and a child molester.

• 42:40Nancy Glass?

  Two days later, Steve and his ex-wife Cindy were standing before a judge. Steve filed a motion that triggered an emergency custody hearing regarding Cindy's parenting time.

• 42:53Speaker 05

  There was absolute confusion in that courtroom for like maybe 90 minutes.

• 42:56Nancy Glass?

  This was now the second time post-divorce that Steve took Cindy to court for custody of their three children. He was unsuccessful a year earlier, but this time the judge sided with Steve. Judge Mary Hope ruled that pending the outcome of the DHS investigation, the children would remain with Steve and Christine.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  I think she was just frustrated. I'm going to take your kids away because I don't know what's going on here.

• 43:26Nancy Glass?

  Okay, now Steve's story was convincing enough for the detective to get a warrant for Kenny's arrest, but would it be convincing enough for DHS?

• 43:36Speaker 05

  I'm still hopeful that the DHS report's not going to show anything.

• 43:39Nancy Glass?

  That investigation would take up to two agonizing months.

• 43:44Speaker 05

  I'm thinking, okay, this is going to be 60 days. I feel confident because I have all this information that, you know, maybe somebody else will take another look at it.

• 43:56Speaker 03

  Your brother and your sister and your dad and everyone else, they're not watching us talk today. So it's a safe place to talk.

• 44:05Nancy Glass?

  On the next episode, we'll hear what the three children at the center of this investigation had to say.

• 44:13Speaker 03

  The doctor that saw your bottom is very worried that the injuries that you have to your bottom did not happen from a wedgie. So tell me how else the injuries to your bottom happened.

• 44:28Nancy Glass?

  That's next time on Burden of Guilt.

• 44:53Nancy Glass?

  Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying Burden of Guilt, subscribe, rate and review the series with five stars, hopefully. That helps other people find our show. Are you curious about what the people involved in this look like? Do you want to hear bonus content? Just check out our Instagram account at Glass Podcasts. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at [email protected]. That's [email protected]. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

• 45:35Nancy Glass?

  This series is executive produced and hosted by me, Nancy Glass, produced by Todd Gans, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Additional production support provided by Carrie Hartman. Special thanks to our voice actor, James Palumbo. Our story editor is Monique LaBord. Our associate producer is Jade Abdul Malik. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcory. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Audio mixing and mastering by Anna McLean and Matt Del Vecchio.

• 46:18Nancy Glass?

  The Burden of Guilt theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app or Apple Podcasts.

• 46:50Speaker 01

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