Pod Insights Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast Is Flighty a Top 5 App of All Time? About this episode This week, Marques, Andrew, and David have a ton to get through. First, it's all about Apple with the WWDC announcement, a potential Siri app, and ads coming to Apple Maps. Then it turns to the Flighty app, the state of Microsoft vs Apple laptops, and encryption in Instagram DMs. It's a lot! Of course, we wrap it all up with Trivia.
Links:
New stickers!
Reddit - Person watching Waveform in planetarium
Verge - Apple testing Standalone Siri app
New Samsung A-series phones
Verge - Ads in Apple Maps
Flighty - Intelligent Airports update
MKBHD - Windows vs Apple laptops
Verge - OpenAI discontinues Sora
Instagram - Ending E2EE
Verge - Router ban
Decoder interview
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Transcript 20,363 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Andrew Manganelli? This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, host Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring your fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episodes and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
0:33 Speaker 01 Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from, but when that context is scattered across tools, threads, and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying blind. That's the problem that Jira solves. What's the goal tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all these pieces together, from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more, so nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping. Learn more at jira.com.
1:18 Speaker 01 That's J-I-R-A dot com. When I was a kid in either 4th or 5th grade, we had to make, and this is a horrible assignment to give a child, a papier-mache
1:27 Andrew Manganelli? Oh, God. Terrible already.
1:29 Speaker 01 2-scale solar system.
1:32 Andrew Manganelli? Wait, so you had like
1:33 Speaker 01 Which, as you know, is [bleep] absurd.
1:35 Andrew Manganelli? That's impossible. 1-scale?
1:36 Speaker 01 So kids and I
1:38 Andrew Manganelli? You need like a marble in a football field.
1:39 Speaker 01 Yes, yes. So my son, my son was like this big, and Pluto was still like 20 feet away. And I had everything connected with like dowels and strings and like
1:49 Andrew Manganelli? How did you bring that into school?
1:50 Speaker 01 I don't remember. I gotta ask my parents about this, because I remember this project.
1:53 Speaker 02 What you should have done is brought in the son and be like, the rest is at home.
1:58 Speaker 01 Where it belongs.
2:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, what is up people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts, I'm Marquez.
2:08 Andrew Manganelli? I'm Andrew.
2:09 Speaker 03 And I'm David.
2:09 Speaker 01 This week, it's still Tarch, believe it or not.
2:12 Andrew Manganelli? Oh, please.
2:13 Speaker 03 I thought we were so.
2:13 Speaker 01 It is still Tech March, and thus, we have lots of things to talk about. We have dubbed updates getting announced, we have IG DMs, we have US governments banning routers, lots of acronyms, also some new Flighty updates, one of my favorite apps of all time, ads in Apple Maps, no more Sora, and a million other little things. So let's just jump right into it.
2:36 Speaker 03 So many things this week, it's crazy.
2:37 Andrew Manganelli? It's a lot of small things.
2:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:39 Andrew Manganelli? It's a lot of four bullet points.
2:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:41 Andrew Manganelli? In the whole outline, pretty much.
2:43 Speaker 03 But we can, we can at least vamp, you know? That's what we're good at. Bullshit.
2:47 Andrew Manganelli? We yap. We're yappers.
2:49 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:49 Andrew Manganelli? Adam's ready to yap, and did we even, did they even test this?
2:52 Speaker 03 Oh, nice, good segue. You caught me off guard. Yeah. Did they even test this? You might have caught it on the Studio channel, if you follow them, they did a short about it yesterday, Eric and Rich, but I was annoyed because me and Rich were transferring files yesterday, and I gave him a hard drive, and then as he's going to give it back to me, he right-clicks it, and he looks for "unmount", but it's right next to "erase", like, "format". Who decided?
3:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:21 Speaker 03 That eject and erase should be right next to each other.
3:24 Speaker 01 As you say, even worse, they both start with a capital E, so it's just right there.
3:27 Speaker 03 Like, if you're not paying attention.
3:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:29 Speaker 03 And I think I've done that accidentally.
3:30 Andrew Manganelli? I've never noticed it, to be honest.
3:31 Speaker 01 But erase does give you an additional prompt that says, "are you sure?", right?
3:34 Speaker 03 No, yeah, and then I panic, and I'm like, "no, no, no, no, no, no, no", but I've definitely hit erase accidentally before.
3:38 Speaker 01 Doesn't eject give you a pr-? No, it doesn't.
3:40 Speaker 03 No, no, no.
3:40 Speaker 01 But you wouldn't be surprised if it got a prompt and you just hit yes, and you're like, "wait, did that say erase? Did that?"
3:46 Andrew Manganelli? Your, your reactions to the enter button are much quicker than reading comprehension.
3:51 Speaker 01 It's true. Yeah.
3:52 Speaker 03 And it's the same on, so it happened on his Mac, and then it was the same thing on my Samsung phone. It's also like, if you go into the Files app and you hit the three dots to eject the hard drive or whatever, it's right next to erase. So this is like a standard.
4:04 Speaker 01 Wait, when you connect a drive to your Samsung phone?
4:06 Speaker 03 Yeah.
4:07 Speaker 01 That's hilarious, that more than one company did this.
4:10 Speaker 03 That's what I'm saying, like, who decided this?
4:11 Speaker 01 Is it alphabetical? Hold on, this is crazy. Eject?
4:14 David Imel? I guess I don't have a drive attached to it. Wow. Maybe because they're alphabetical?
4:18 Speaker 03 But nothing else?
4:19 Andrew Manganelli? I doubt it.
4:21 David Imel? No, it's not, because right above is like-
4:22 Andrew Manganelli? It's probably just because it's an action for the disk.
4:24 Speaker 03 If I right-click anything, it's not in alphabetical order.
4:27 Andrew Manganelli? Because generally that dropdown is like folder colors and a bunch of other stuff. So then those two are just like actions that are
4:34 David Imel? Yeah.
4:34 Andrew Manganelli? similar, but not ones you want to be similar.
4:37 Speaker 02 It's like engineer brain versus designer brain. You know, like engineer brain would be like, yeah, like those are two things you do to the drive. I'm going to order them in terms of severity. Whereas a designer would be like, at no point does anyone ever choosing between those two options. Like, they should be far away.
4:54 David Imel? Yeah, erase should be at the bottom.
4:55 Andrew Manganelli? If we want a good example of a designer brain that may not have noticed something that feels too obvious. We just released these studio stickers, which if you are an audio listener, essentially what our design team has thought up of, which I think is really interesting, is the eyedropper tool from like Photoshop or any design program, except that we have cut it out. So there is a, it's not clear, it's just a straight cutout in the eyedropper and in the circle that it's selecting. So no matter what you put it on, it looks like you're selecting the color.
5:26 David Imel? A lot of people got very confused at this. Somebody posted on our subreddit, our unofficial subreddit. They're like, I'm confused. How did they get the colors to match exactly? Well, the thing they put it on, and it's because there's a cutout and it's clear and you can see through it.
5:39 Andrew Manganelli? That's what I was saying, like our designers, somebody said in Instagram, is there a red one? It's like, yes, there is any color you could ever think of.
5:47 David Imel? Whatever object you have.
5:48 Andrew Manganelli? Because it is using the object underneath it.
5:50 David Imel? Yeah, yeah.
5:51 Andrew Manganelli? None of us ever thought that would happen. But there are multiple comments on Twitter and Reddit and Instagram. So yes, whatever color you would like, these are new stickers available.
5:58 Speaker 02 Except, except teal, it doesn't work on teal.
6:01 David Imel? It doesn't?
6:02 Andrew Manganelli? Well, it shouldn't. Sorry, Dave.
6:04 David Imel? I will say that it works much better on like brighter, more vibrant colors. I put it on my iPhone, um, blue, whatever the blue color is called this year. And it's like, it's, it's not as poppy, you know, when you put on your water bottle, you're like, whoa. It like, looks like a red sticker, like a bright red sticker. It's pretty cool.
6:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:22 David Imel? But on my dark blue iPhone, it's not as vibrant. So I would put it on your more vibrant.
6:26 Andrew Manganelli? You're using an old version also that has a clear outline, which creates less contrast on the overall.
6:32 David Imel? We updated. Oh, you're right. I'm using a vintage.
6:34 Andrew Manganelli? We have an all, all white outline now. So no matter what your color is, you should get a big contrast boost because it's.
6:40 David Imel? That's a great point. That's a great point.
6:42 Speaker 01 So it's a classic of like, we've been in the weeds, working on this for so long that when it comes out, we assume everyone knows all of the things. But now you know all the things.
6:50 Andrew Manganelli? Luckily this is just a sticker and you can figure it out by yourself.
6:53 Speaker 01 You get the sticker, you're like, oh, this is nice. This is good.
6:55 David Imel? Yeah. And if you want new things to put the stickers on, there's new software coming out in June from Apple. Because WWDC just got announced. You can put your stickers on your software in the metaverse.
7:09 Speaker 02 As long as it's not teal.
7:11 David Imel? As long as it's not.
7:11 Speaker 02 I'm kidding. It's a sticker. It does work on teal.
7:14 David Imel? Yeah. So here's one of our two bullet point, uh, things. Actually, there's only one bullet point. But WWDC starts on Monday, June 8th. It is once again on a Monday for some reason. I don't know why they keep doing this. Usually events are on Tuesdays so that people can travel and not have to travel over the weekend. Um, but it is on a Monday. So. You know, we're gonna be seeing what's going on there. There's gonna be some new Apple intelligence stuff.
7:36 Speaker 01 I was 27.
7:37 David Imel? Hopefully. I was 27, which brings us to. Apple is reportedly testing a standalone Siri app. And, uh, we know that Siri is gonna be powered by Gemini. And so this feels like it will possibly just kind of be a Gemini wrapper, you know? Cause Gemini has a dedicated app and that's how people interact with it. But you can also interact with it. Through the phone, through asking, you know, hey G, what's up with this? You can do things via Gemini.
8:05 Speaker 02 I thought a Gemini wrapper was just Meek Mill.
8:08 David Imel? Oh wow.
8:09 Speaker 01 Did you have to Google?
8:10 Andrew Manganelli? That was a crazy cut. Not even deep because it was new.
8:13 Speaker 01 You didn't know his?
8:13 Andrew Manganelli? If you saw it.
8:14 Speaker 01 Who is Meek Mill?
8:15 Speaker 02 I'm just on... No, that was a Twitter reference.
8:18 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, it's a recent Twitter reference.
8:20 Speaker 02 Meek Mill's been tweeting about AI all week. Sorry, I totally...
8:23 Andrew Manganelli? He's a rapper also, if you didn't know that. Hence...
8:26 Speaker 01 I thought you meant he was actually his birth sign.
8:29 David Imel? That's what I thought too, yeah.
8:31 Speaker 02 Now, Meek Mill's been tweeting about Claude all week. It's really funny.
8:33 Speaker 01 Got it. That is funny. Okay.
8:36 Speaker 03 I need to know now, what's his sign? Hold on. Is it a... No, he's a Taurus.
8:39 David Imel? Ah, Taurus bros. Nice.
8:41 Speaker 03 Anyway.
8:42 David Imel? Anyway, um, yeah, so it seems like we're going to get the Siri 2.0 potentially in the iOS 27 release. Despite previously being stated that it will come out in iOS 26.4 or 26.5. Gorman is reporting that there will be a separate app that looks like iMessage when you message it.
8:59 Speaker 01 I thought that was really interesting.
9:00 David Imel? Yeah.
9:01 Speaker 01 Because a lot of, this was, maybe this is just because of, uh, what was the new one? OpenClaw? How people were like interacting with through messages?
9:06 David Imel? Telegram and stuff.
9:07 Speaker 01 And that was an interesting, like, paradigm of just, I want to chat with my chatbot. Everyone knows iMessage.
9:12 David Imel? Yeah.
9:12 Speaker 01 So an app that's Siri, but it looks like iMessage is interesting. It's a concept that Apple could do.
9:17 Andrew Manganelli? I think it's good and weird because like, it's obviously familiar to iPhone users because it looks like iMessage.
9:23 David Imel? Yeah.
9:24 Andrew Manganelli? But then also like, the fact that there's two apps that look exactly the same, but one is the AI one. I guess you'll never get them confused, but it feels like maybe it could just be in the messages app. Like, why not just a top chat, like a pinned chat that's now inside the messages app?
9:38 David Imel? Which is what WhatsApp did for a very long time.
9:40 Speaker 01 And I think, didn't Google Messages do that with Gemini? Or you can chat to Gemini?
9:44 David Imel? You can chat to Gemini.
9:45 Speaker 03 You can pin it if you want to the top and here, there's a chat in there.
9:48 Speaker 01 So I could see that.
9:49 David Imel? I think that makes a lot of sense. Um, it's also being reported that they're testing a lot of new, different Siri designs, which is kind of sad because I like the current kind of rainbow wavy one that they got going on. But apparently it may come out of the dynamic island, um, and it will probably be replacing Spotlight so that Siri can access different types of data because Spotlight is fairly limited on what the phone can access. And now that Siri is going to have this new LLM built in, it'll be able to understand more context and kind of reach for different types of... Things and apps will also be getting an ask with Siri option so you can get more context about the things that you're currently looking at on your screen. So it really kind of just feels like Apple is following what Google is doing with Gemini where Gemini is embedded inside of
10:31 David Imel? Android and it's just kind of part of the OS. I think Apple is moving in that direction.
10:36 Andrew Manganelli? Clippy.
10:37 David Imel? Clippy.
10:37 Andrew Manganelli? Microsoft that right years ago.
10:40 David Imel? Ahead of its time. Yeah. Google, we always say Google Glass ahead of its time, Clippy ahead of its time.
10:44 Andrew Manganelli? I like how they kill Clippy so hard. We're saying Microsoft's ahead of its time and this Siri isn't even out yet and we're still giving it more credit.
10:50 David Imel? Yeah. Stat ahead of it.
10:52 Andrew Manganelli? Bring back Clippy. That's all you needed to do.
10:53 David Imel? Some people were saying there were rumors that we were going to get a beta drop that included Siri like this week. I would personally prefer if they just waited till June and it was one big like release announcement because it'd be more exciting.
11:05 Andrew Manganelli? I think the thing I heard was like updated Gemini queries inside of like Apple Intelligence, but that the new Siri would be in iOS 27 because like they have to drop it at Dub Dub. Apple needs an event.
11:17 David Imel? It's been two years.
11:18 Andrew Manganelli? For everything except for AirPods Max 2 and then they, that's where they're going to drop it, even though it probably should have been dropped at last Dub Dub, even though it probably should have been dropped at the
11:27 David Imel? 24.
11:28 Andrew Manganelli? Well, it was dropped at that one and then not actually dropped.
11:30 David Imel? Well, announced.
11:31 Andrew Manganelli? Event. Announced and then not dropped at the iPhone.
11:33 David Imel? They did drop it, you know?
11:34 Andrew Manganelli? They dropped the [BLEEP] out of it.
11:36 David Imel? They dropped the ball. Yeah. So I mean, iOS 27 is going to come out officially with the iPhone 27. So that'd be like a September-ish type of timeframe. So if they announce what they're going to do with it in Well, iPhone 18. Yeah, sorry. iPhone 18. Yeah. iOS 27. Yeah. 2027. 2027. September. Correct, yeah. That could possibly be the big drop of like all the new features, the new Siri, everything comes out at once and the new phone happens to have a couple other. We've seen rumors of like new features of the iPhones.
12:05 Andrew Manganelli? But we should get some developer stuff in like July, right?
12:07 David Imel? Yeah.
12:08 Andrew Manganelli? 27 beta comes out.
12:10 David Imel? Early beta. The beta comes out on the day of Dub Dub. Like it drops that day.
12:14 Andrew Manganelli? Oh, yeah, yeah.
12:15 David Imel? Developer beta.
12:16 Andrew Manganelli? Developer beta, but like people usually aren't allowed to make videos and stuff until.
12:20 David Imel? Fun fact, you're not technically, okay.
12:23 Speaker 01 How in the weeds should I get?
12:25 Andrew Manganelli? I also
12:26 David Imel? Let's get weedy right now.
12:28 Speaker 01 Well, OK, you are not allowed, when you sign the developer agreement, to make videos about the developer beta.
12:35 David Imel? Yeah.
12:35 Speaker 01 Most people don't read that and don't care.
12:38 David Imel? Yeah.
12:38 Speaker 01 But we are in a unique position where we have some working relationship with Apple, and so we try to follow the actual rules. And so when the developer beta comes out and everyone makes videos about the developer beta that they're technically not allowed to, but they do it anyway.
12:52 David Imel? Yeah.
12:53 Speaker 01 I wait because I agree to the developer agreement. And then a month later, when the public beta comes out, I make a video on that, using my experience from a developer beta.
13:02 David Imel? Right.
13:02 Speaker 01 On the public beta.
13:03 Andrew Manganelli? The benefit of waveform is we can just report on everybody else's videos and talk about it however we want before that.
13:10 David Imel? Exactly. That's that. Should we do the other Apple thing and just get it out of the way? Or what do you think?
13:15 Andrew Manganelli? Ads in Apple Maps.
13:16 David Imel? Yeah, OK. Apple's gonna allow businesses to buy ads in Apple Maps. And I can already hear people being like, wow, Apple Maps is sucking, which I still don't like it, to be clear. I still like Google Maps a lot more. Google Maps, you probably don't know this, but has had ads for an extremely long period of time.
13:34 Andrew Manganelli? A Google product?
13:35 David Imel? With ads? It's their main money maker? That's crazy. Yeah. No, I mean, if you go on Google Maps right now, you'll just see Dunkin' Donuts around you without trying to search for it.
13:46 Andrew Manganelli? It's so weird. Oh, is that in? Maybe that's in Waze. I think Waze, when you're driving and it's just like, hey, there's a Wendy's right there. OK, cool. I don't care.
13:58 David Imel? Yeah.
13:58 Speaker 01 It's like your friend pointing out the window, like, hey, there's a Wendy's right there.
14:02 David Imel? So it's gonna allow people, well, people that want to sell ads to have suggested places at the top of search results. And this is going to be based on places that are trending and based on your recent searches. And it will not be associated with your Apple account because all of the data is stored on device. They're still trying to be hardcore about security about that. And they also say that the places that you go to are not shared with advertisers. Now, that's also what ChatGPT said when they said that they were gonna do ads, but we'll have to see if that's true.
14:33 Speaker 01 What's funny about that is Maps is like a very personal app. It's like where you're going and your location all the time. And I do feel like, and this is, maybe this is a hot take, but everyone loves, you know, to talk about, I would rather have privacy than have personalized ads. But when you're in your Maps app, wouldn't you rather have personalized ads than like, I never drink coffee. Why am I still getting Starbucks ads everywhere I go? I would rather have the personalized ad for the thing that I would actually maybe go to, than constantly get things that are not associated with me at all. Yeah, I feel like that. I would actually appreciate that because I might actually go to the Jollibee and I would never go to the Starbucks that I might get an ad for from Apple.
15:10 Andrew Manganelli? You go to Starbucks a lot for a non-coffee drinker?
15:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, oh, okay, maybe that's a bad example.
15:15 Andrew Manganelli? But I just wanna say, I've never seen someone go to Starbucks as often and never order coffee.
15:20 Speaker 01 I think people, I just get the breakfast.
15:22 Andrew Manganelli? You're big on the pumpkin bread.
15:23 Speaker 01 The bread is...
15:25 Speaker 01 Can I warm it up for you? Yeah. Yes, you can.
15:28 David Imel? I think best item at Starbucks is the, uh, the thing that has the spinach and the feta wrap, the spinach feta wrap.
15:33 Speaker 01 It's a solid breakfast. Yeah, they got a couple of breakfast sandwiches. Anyway, my point is, Google's gonna give me ads based on the way too much that it knows about me. And Apple's gonna give me ads based on the knowing nothing about me. And I suspect I'll be more annoyed by the ones that are for a thing that I've never considered going to.
15:52 David Imel? That's kind of the, the big question that's been asked for the last few years because when Apple dropped the Ask App Not to Track feature, and then Meta was like, wouldn't you rather that you had more integrated? And it's like, it's kind of, I don't know. I know a lot of people who buy a lot of things from Instagram ads. So I've never bought anything from an Instagram ad because I will not let them win. But I know that it can be quite effective for a lot of people. It reminds me of that story of the, the woman who didn't know she was pregnant, but Amazon did. Because it was serving.
16:22 Andrew Manganelli? Target, yeah.
16:23 David Imel? Target?
16:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, Target, and I start recommending things for, they targeted her, I guess.
16:27 Speaker 02 It was also a minor, so.
16:28 Andrew Manganelli? I'll be interested in how this pops up. Is it popping up while you're searching for places? Is that taking over the top of it? Is it just suggestions when you first open Apple Maps? Is, like, you think about places like Yelp that were a place thing, and Yelp is just, uh... Destroyed ever since they did all the like you can pay to get like placed up higher and better reviews or whatever. No one cares about Yelp anymore.
16:52 Speaker 01 Yelp has also famously like kind of exploited people businesses and called them and be like, we're gonna take you off of our recommendations if you don't pay us. That's yeah, like there are stories about this. It's crazy. So yeah, well, we'll see. I mean, it's, I don't even know how many people actually use Apple Maps anymore, but yeah, or not anymore, but ever did.
17:12 David Imel? As long as it's clearly marked as an ad, so I can very quickly skip it, then I'm happy.
17:15 Speaker 01 Yeah. So.
17:17 Andrew Manganelli? That's the hard part, though, is like, what if the ad does look really scrumptious?
17:22 Speaker 01 Then that's a successful.
17:24 Andrew Manganelli? I know, but how many like, like what you said, if you see it say ad, I'm usually like hardwired to skip, but then there's the times where it's like, that does sound really good, but is this actually good? Or is this just an ad?
17:35 David Imel? Then you gotta do the second layer of research of like, let me click it. Let me look at the reviews.
17:40 Andrew Manganelli? I'm hungry. I'm just trying to eat.
17:41 David Imel? I know. It's usually.
17:42 Andrew Manganelli? I ain't trying to research right now.
17:42 Speaker 01 That's why I don't like, that's just why nobody wants ads in maps. Like you just want to find the thing, go to the thing, but the ad's gonna pop up and be like, hey, what about, you want to go to this other place? Yeah. No, I actually opened this app just to go somewhere else. Thank you very much.
17:53 David Imel? It is frustrating. Even in Google Maps, it'll be like best food near me and it'll give me like a 4.5 because that, that restaurant like paid for it or whatever. It's like suggested sponsored result. And it's like, ugh. Yeah, Apple is in this weird place where it's like slowly trying to transition towards other revenue sources because they're scared of the iPhone making less money over time and all of these things happening and, uh, you know, they can't retain as many people as they want on their other services.
18:19 Speaker 01 This will come up again later in this podcast.
18:21 David Imel? Oh, it will. Yeah. It will. It will.
18:23 Andrew Manganelli? Foreshadowing.
18:24 David Imel? We'll see how that happens.
18:25 Andrew Manganelli? Marquez, what are you more excited about? The Samsung A series or Flighty?
18:32 Speaker 01 Is that a question?
18:34 Andrew Manganelli? I literally licked his lips when we heard Flighty.
18:37 David Imel? Before we started, before we started recording, I was like, I think Flighty is like top five app of all time.
18:42 Andrew Manganelli? Insane take.
18:43 Speaker 01 And it's not like a multi, it's not multi-platform. It's not like a very broad thing that everyone can use. Not everybody flies enough to give any hoots about Flighty, but if you do fly a lot, Flighty is goaded and everybody who flies a lot knows that. So it's weirdly in, it's tucked away in the corner of like, hey, do you fly a lot? No question about it. This app is unbelievably useful.
19:03 Andrew Manganelli? That will be a Flighty ad by Monday.
19:06 Speaker 01 It's just fact. Anyway, they, uh, no, they just announced another thing. So kind of like, I'm describing it as like Waze for airports. They're calling it Airport Intelligence. And essentially what it does is it allows you a broader view of like what's going on with airports in general. So Flighty, for those who don't know, is like a flight tracker app. You put in your flight information, it tells you everything you need to know about your flight as you're about to fly, while you're flying. Soon as you land, it tells you where your baggage is going to be. If it's delayed, it tells you why it's delayed, before the airline usually does. All this stuff. It's super useful. So Airport Intelligence is like, let's say hypothetically, there's some, something going on with airports in your area.
19:45 David Imel? Allegedly.
19:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, allegedly. This could happen, maybe.
19:48 David Imel? The timing for this release is perfect.
19:51 Speaker 01 It's really good timing. Yeah. So something weird is going on at an airport in your area, and it's affecting like kind of all flights, and you're flying tomorrow, and you just kind of want to get an idea of like, maybe I should go to security check in like two or three hours early, for example, just to hypothetically. You would be able to look at the airports in your area and look at their status in this, which is sort of aggregating a bunch of data, I assume from Flighty users and from, you know, the FAA and everything, contributing to one spot, kind of like Waze. And you can get an idea of if the airport in question is affected or not, and make your decision accordingly. So, again, as someone who flies a lot, another useful feature, I will be happily using this. It is kind of slow right now, I assume because it just launched, but it is full of information about every airport.
20:35 David Imel? I'm all, it's crazy that they launched this before the FAA did, but...
20:39 Speaker 01 I think that's the least surprising thing.
20:41 David Imel? I mean, yeah, true. Yeah. There was an interview with the United CEO like a year ago, and they're like, they asked him, what is one thing that you wish that you did to like update your tech stack earlier? And he said, I wish we bought Flighty.
20:53 Speaker 01 Wow.
20:54 David Imel? Like, he specifically said that. He was like, they're doing insanely good things, and I have made, I think they've made them offers, and they said no.
21:00 Speaker 01 Yeah. Every time I fly, I get the, my iPhone has the live activity for the United app and for Flighty, and I immediately dismiss the United one, because I just use the Flighty one.
21:09 David Imel? You should just not allow it to send you notifications.
21:11 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well, I also click on it for my boarding pass. That's the one thing I have the United app for, though.
21:15 David Imel? Your boarding pass.
21:16 Speaker 01 Everything else, like, just get from Flighty. Wait, did they even test this? United boarding pass, if you have multiple people on the reservation and you are not the first one, if you have like your boarding pass up and ready and then lock your phone waiting in line and then come up, it resets back to the first one. I've scanned Adam and before on business trips and then we have to figure out which one I did wrong. Yeah. Terrible, United. Yeah. You should be able to pin your boarding pass. Yeah. You should be able to have your boarding pass in Flighty. You should be able to what? Be able to have your boarding pass in Flighty. Oh, ooh. Yeah. Why, why, why can't we do that? There's probably a reason why we can't do that.
21:52 David Imel? Because they want you to use their app.
21:54 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, that's probably why. Anyway, so that's that. The other thing that you mentioned, Andrew, is Samsung dropping the new A series of phones. Uh, I only put this in here because I thought it was just a note and interesting that they all have the same battery size. These aren't notes. So, yeah, so it's the Samsung A57 and A37. The A37 will be 449, the A57 will be 549. So these are like your mid-range fighters. We've seen a lot of phones coming out at this price points. And they look just like the rest of the Samsung S series phones, like S26s. They look like they have triple cameras, but one of them's a macro camera, you know, they make the appropriate cuts to reach these price points. But the one thing they did is they both have 5,000 milliampere batteries, which is the same size as the S26 Ultra.
22:35 Speaker 01 So the $1,200 phone has a 5,000 milliampere battery and the $450 phone also has a 5,000 milliampere battery.
22:43 Andrew Manganelli? It's one of those things where you're like really pumped for the cheap phone and really bummed for the expensive phone?
22:48 Speaker 01 Pretty much.
22:48 Andrew Manganelli? It's like hard to complain about this because I'm so happy that the mid-range phones are getting that. But you gotta take that as a kick in the teeth if you bought the 26 Ultra.
22:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, you can't, that's, it's, I, I said in my review, so I don't have to harp on it again, but that is maybe the least Ultra Ultra phone right now. Yeah. Is the S26 Ultra. Back to the S20 days.
23:08 Speaker 01 Great phone. I told it like it is in the review. But yeah, as far as the word ultra concerned.
23:13 David Imel? Adam, did you purchase another phone?
23:16 Speaker 03 BS26 Ultra.
23:18 Speaker 01 He had it last. What color was it? It was a different color that I've seen.
23:20 David Imel? It's black.
23:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, the black one.
23:22 David Imel? Yeah.
23:22 Speaker 01 I had the like purple.
23:23 David Imel? How long do you plan to stay on that?
23:25 Speaker 03 Till the iPhone allegedly folds.
23:28 Speaker 01 We'll see.
23:29 David Imel? Interesting. That's, I don't think that's gonna happen. I think you're gonna change earlier.
23:33 Speaker 01 Definitely.
23:33 David Imel? Possibly.
23:34 Andrew Manganelli? I thought you were gonna say till my next shipment comes in of whatever I ordered yesterday.
23:38 David Imel? Yeah. Well, you could buy that, or you could buy a MacBook Neo. So, choose wisely.
23:44 Speaker 01 For 1,200 bucks?
23:46 David Imel? No.
23:46 Andrew Manganelli? Buy two.
23:47 David Imel? The, the, the cheap one.
23:49 Speaker 01 Oh, oh, yeah, the cheap.
23:50 David Imel? A.
23:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's crazy.
23:51 David Imel? Yeah.
23:52 Speaker 01 You could buy that or a Neo. It's wild.
23:53 David Imel? Speaking of the MacBook Neo, you wanna talk about this Windows 11 problem?
23:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, we could do this before break. So, uh, recent video on the channel will be live by the time you see this, which is just talking about the Windows laptop problem. This was inspired by the two Mac laptops that I've tested most recently. The MacBook Neo, their 599 slash 499 mid-range fighter. And the M5 Max MacBook Pro, which I've also tested. I was running all my benchmarks on it. It had like 18,000 megabyte per second SSD read and write speeds, which is crazy. It has benchmarked multi-core higher than any other Mac ever, including the Mac Pro and M3 Ultra. It has GPU scores matching M3 Ultra, which is insane. This is a Mac's chip in a laptop.
24:37 Speaker 01 So, I'm actually thinking like, this is now a laptop that could actually replace my Mac Pro and be my desktop. I might be that guy at some point. But having all these thoughts also made me think, well, what's going on in Windows land? Like, what is actually the equivalent of, you know, the highest-end laptop you could get? And could it be the desktop that I choose to use? How good are those laptops? And so that had me digging into like, okay, what's going on with XPS? What's going on with Razer Blades? What's going on also with the Neo competitors? I bought a $550 Acer laptop. We tested that. And essentially, a conclusion I came to was Apple's Apple silicon advantage and their vertical integration is a huge advantage at the high end for efficiency and performance.
25:20 Speaker 01 And it turns out to also be a huge advantage at the low end for cost.
25:24 David Imel? Yeah.
25:25 Speaker 01 And the cherry on top is that Apple doesn't actually really need to make a ton of money on NEOs on the hardware margin.
25:33 David Imel? The services.
25:33 Speaker 01 Because it is, it's basically, as I said in the video, like a Trojan horse for new Apple customers, which then will spend way more on software, on services, on Apple Care, on Apple TV, on Apple Creative Studio, all these other things. So they don't have to make the $100 on the hardware margin, but they will make a ton of money over time on just getting a new person to be a Mac user.
25:56 David Imel? This is the entire Chromebook play. It was get people on Google services when they're five years old, so they will use services for the rest of their life.
26:04 Speaker 01 Yeah. So it was interesting to sort of see that in real time and just like put the machines next to each other and be like, oh yeah, they can make just a straight up better laptop for the same price and that's going to get people to become first time Mac people.
26:18 David Imel? I mean, a Windows computer has parts from a ton of different companies and every single one of those companies has to make margin. That's literally the main problem.
26:27 Andrew Manganelli? Disadvantage off the riff, like just having to do that. And that bites, it's like similar with Android phones, it's similar with tablets. It's just like when Apple has the full integration through, there's a benefit there. Even just like making software on mobile, right? Like we see all the time, if you're making iOS software, you don't have to do it that hard, but if you're making Android software, it has to fit.
26:51 David Imel? A thousand.
26:52 Andrew Manganelli? Like thousands of thousands of, tens of thousands of different like form factors, phones, resolutions and aspect.
26:58 David Imel? Like Google has been so hardcore about just trying to make Android so flexible with screen sizes and stuff.
27:03 Speaker 01 And that's part of the advantage, right? Is there is a choice. Like in Android land, if I really, really, really care about having 8K video, well, there is no iPhone that can do that. So if I just want to choose a phone that can shoot 8K video, you can find that in Android land. You can find all sorts of other different things you might care about, like a folding screen or whatever in Android land.
27:21 David Imel? Yeah.
27:22 Speaker 01 But the couple of phones that Apple makes are like locked in, super tightly integrated. And you might not be super used to the way they do things, but they do it the same way every single time. So you kind of just get used to that when you're in that ecosystem.
27:34 David Imel? Yeah.
27:35 Speaker 01 And yeah, that's kind of the same thing with Windows. Now, in this sort of latest generation, this is the nuance of it is, yes, you depend on all these different companies who make the parts to your computer to all make their margin, but also make a good piece. You have to have, to make a great Windows laptop, several different companies all executing and firing on cylinders at the same time for your one computer to be good.
27:58 David Imel? Yeah.
27:58 Speaker 01 So if you're Dell and you make the XPS like I showed, you're also depending on Intel to be making a good chip at that time, which they are. And you know, you're Dell, you have to make a good computer with a good screen and a good keyboard and all that stuff, which they are. And you need Windows to be good.
28:17 Andrew Manganelli? I'm fine with Windows. I like Windows.
28:19 Speaker 01 So Windows 11 isn't kind of a weird place because not everybody's loving Windows 11. I do not. I haven't used Windows since Windows 10 and I was jumping into Windows 11 again and I set up this XPS. It took me 45 minutes to set it up.
28:31 Andrew Manganelli? The setup is sufferable.
28:33 Speaker 01 There were mandatory downloading updates and stuff. Once I got through the updates, it was like, sign into this, sign into that. Download Microsoft 365. Do you want to use Copilot? Do you want Recall on? Do you want all these other things? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. All this stuff it was asking me. And then I finally got into my clean install of Windows and then I got a pop-up for McAfee to be installed.
28:50 David Imel? And this is, this is the other thing. The only other way that these manufacturers that make the laptops can make the laptops cheap enough to even be competitive at all is that they have to put a bunch of bloatware on it. They have to get...
29:01 Speaker 01 To make more...
29:01 David Imel? Yeah, I mean, we see this on Android phones too. Like the Android phones that come with Facebook installed and come with Instagram installed. They don't do that out of the kindness of their heart. They do that because Meta pays them to do that.
29:11 Speaker 01 Hmm.
29:11 David Imel? So yeah, it's just, it's not a good situation for anybody else. And Microsoft really, they tried to do the vertical integration with the Surface, but I just, they're such a B2B company that it's such an afterthought for them. We saw this with the Pixel for a very long time, the Nexus program, the Pixel.
29:27 Speaker 01 Now Tensor.
29:28 David Imel? Google didn't really care about the Pixel and they still don't really get... They're trying to care more and the Pixels are really good now. They're really, really good now. But it still doesn't have quite the level of vertical integration that they would like. And even if they achieved it, they're in this weird spot where they make Android...
29:45 Speaker 01 Android for everyone else.
29:46 David Imel? Yeah.
29:46 Speaker 01 So they're competing against all of that.
29:49 David Imel? Yeah.
29:50 Speaker 01 While also providing them with the OS. So this happens in in Google land because they make the pixel and tensor and they're all vertically integrated. And they'll give the pixel exclusive Android features and now they're competing against every other Android phone. Same thing happened with Windows and Microsoft and Surface and making this beautifully, ideally, very vertically integrated thing. Now you're competing against all the other OEMs trying to make good Windows machines. And maybe that's like a lead by example type thing, but it just, it never went well.
30:17 David Imel? Yeah. And the funny thing about the the Google Android features thing is that they also want to make Android a popular OS to compete with iOS. And so they have to eventually give a lot of these features to the broader Android ecosystem. And that's why Google does this awkward thing where they have pixel exclusive features for like two months. And then it goes to every other Android phone because they need other people to want to use Android in general. And it's also why they had that weird bromance with Samsung for such a long time.
30:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:43 David Imel? Ellis, you look like you really want to say something.
30:45 Speaker 02 I know, I've just been fighting a Windows PC all week and and like, to be honest, I I it's all tinfoil hat stuff like. Because it's a Windows PC that on paper has a really good graphics card and a really good pro or, you know, good enough graphics card and a good enough processor. But like, and we didn't build this PC and it it sort of is the things that, you know, you, I think you've been talking about, Mark has like, like. It's for a video we're working on that involves this like peripheral device that connects via USB 3.0. And it keeps crashing all the time and I couldn't figure out why it kept crashing. And my working theory right now, and I haven't like tested this, so again, it's tinfoil hat, is that the USB 3.0 ports on this computer are just not USB 3.0 parts.
31:29 Speaker 02 That that's my best guess because when you and the USB 3.2 ports are USB 3.0 part ports. And it's like, there's no way the company who built this PC. You know, they didn't build the ports. They definitely got the the USB I O box like from
31:44 Andrew Manganelli? Motherboard?
31:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, from someone else. But it's like that. It's sort of what you're talking about. It's like you need all or like, for some reason, not a single Bluetooth keyboard will connect to this PC. Not one. There's, there's one Logitech keyboard in the whole office that will connect for 30 seconds and then immediately disconnect. And the rest of, and it's not like, I haven't tried all 100 Bluetooth keyboards that are in the office.
32:07 Andrew Manganelli? Those be, where could those have come from?
32:09 Speaker 02 I've just, this is all ringing very true.
32:11 Andrew Manganelli? It also shaped like a shoe.
32:13 Speaker 02 Well, I was trying not to say, I didn't, I don't know if that any of these are the problems. I don't want to shout.
32:18 Andrew Manganelli? There's a chance, like, that computer doesn't get used very often. There might be some driver updates that are in there that we haven't like, dug that deep into where like, it was dormant for a while. So
32:28 Speaker 02 Totally.
32:28 Andrew Manganelli? And I don't, some are probably that, but some are also like, it should be easy to figure out what those problems are.
32:32 Speaker 02 I don't want to, I don't want to accuse anyone of counterfeit USB ports, but I genuinely cannot, I'm at the point now where I'm like, why, why does the USB 3.0 cable not get USB 3.0 speeds until it's in the 3.2 port? Why does the 3.0 port not give 3.0 speeds?
32:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:51 Speaker 02 Yeah. What?
32:52 Speaker 01 Yeah. Sorry, I was looking into the eyes of your hat for a second.
32:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, I should probably address this. This is Franklin, the mascot of the Philadelphia 76ers. Thank you to Fan and Michael for the sick hat. I'm going to wear this the whole.
33:04 Andrew Manganelli? Why do they have a cat as the mascot?
33:06 Speaker 02 It's a dog.
33:07 Andrew Manganelli? That's a cat.
33:07 Speaker 02 Franklin.
33:08 Andrew Manganelli? That is a cat, a thousand percent.
33:09 Speaker 01 Isn't Franklin a turtle? He has whiskers.
33:11 Speaker 02 Franklin is Benjamin Franklin, the founding father.
33:14 Speaker 01 That's
33:15 Speaker 02 Half of the things in Philadelphia.
33:17 Speaker 01 He was a dog?
33:17 Speaker 02 Benjamin Franklin was in fact
33:20 Andrew Manganelli? What number president was he?
33:21 Speaker 02 He was president number six and he, when he signed the Declaration of Independence, it was a paw print.
33:27 Speaker 01 He got that dog in him.
33:27 Andrew Manganelli? Cat print.
33:30 Andrew Manganelli? To bring it back, I think the best way.
33:36 Andrew Manganelli? I didn't notice that. I feel like the best way, if you really want an example of the difference between like the vertical integration in Apple and the vertical integration in Android, Windows, go on our Apple and go on our Android and watch. Everyone in Apple is just generally mad at the same thing where everyone in Android is mad at each other because even though they're all using Android, they're all fans of different companies of phones and they all hate each other. It is just the wildest infighting ever. And like, now imagine all of those different people need to work together and build something. And it's just-
34:10 Speaker 02 And to be fair, like-
34:12 Andrew Manganelli? I'm a full Android and Windows user at home, by the way. I only use Apple stuff at work.
34:16 David Imel? I like Android better than iOS by far. And there's a great piece by David Pearce. He, uh, he tried to use Android for like the last four months. And he used a bunch of different phones and he really liked the Fairphone 6, but it doesn't work on Verizon. So he couldn't do it. But, um, he went back to iOS because his conclusion was effectively phones are app machines and iOS has better apps. And he relies on too many iOS apps to go back to Android, which sucks because Android is a way better OS.
34:45 Speaker 02 Well, I want to play devil's advocate because as someone who's like fully Apple, you know, ecosystemed up, there are a lot of these like vertically integrated things in the Apple world that are like not supported to the degree they should be. Like Freeform has like six updates that they just need to add. Like there's just no excuse why Freeform doesn't have these things. But I just don't think they care enough about Freeform to do it, you know? And there's a but, or like, why does the Apple Mail app still kind of blow?
35:17 David Imel? Oh, it sucks. Yeah.
35:18 Speaker 02 So you know what I mean? It's email.
35:20 Andrew Manganelli? When you're just the default and you get to be the default thing for what?
35:24 David Imel? Right.
35:24 Andrew Manganelli? 80% market share of the US, like why change?
35:26 David Imel? Why update it?
35:28 Speaker 02 Yeah, but like, why is it so hard to rotate something on the desktop version of Freeform? And why is it so hard to select multiple objects on the mobile version of Freeform?
35:37 Speaker 01 I would like to see the user base for Freeform.
35:39 Speaker 02 It's me.
35:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:40 Andrew Manganelli? I know.
35:42 Speaker 01 That's why I'm like, that's my point.
35:44 Andrew Manganelli? Apple users, there's definitely some people who hate Apple screenshotting you in the cat hat right now, like, average Apple users.
35:52 Speaker 01 There's also, there's also, it's kind of like either that or the massive graveyard of stuff that Google tries and then just kills a year later. So it's like, would I rather have the kind of weak updates, but at least it works the same way every time on one side of the fence? Or like, Google launching an app and me going, I don't think I want to switch to this because I don't trust them to even keep this alive for a year.
36:15 Andrew Manganelli? Rip inbox, bro.
36:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:16 Speaker 02 That's so true.
36:16 Speaker 01 So it, yeah, there's choice on one side, but there's the upside and downside of that choice.
36:21 Speaker 02 Also, there's at least six Freeform users because there are several things that I force my friends to do on Freeform with me.
36:27 Speaker 01 So they're monthly.
36:28 Speaker 02 Plan vacations. Freeform is excellent for that.
36:30 Andrew Manganelli? This whole conversation is also negating people who have like very specific needs that software wise or like needs to be on a Windows machine, needs to be on Android. Yeah. Like, we're talking outside of that because clearly then we have one option.
36:44 Speaker 01 Almost every business distributes Windows computers. I think that's a big part of the equation for like why they are where they are. Especially because you talk about like David having like, he'd come from an iPhone, so he's already plugged in and uses a lot of iPhone only apps.
36:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:57 Speaker 01 There's a lot of people who play a certain game that you can't play on Mac or there are people who use certain softwares for their business that are just only Windows XP. Like that, that's a real thing where, okay, now Windows XP has a massive market share because that's still stable and that's the thing that we use. And that's where our apps are. So like, if your dependencies or you're plugged into one specific thing, like I'm a Mac user, I [BLEEP] you not because I switched to Final Cut Pro. Yeah. That is why I started using a Mac. Yeah. And now here we are, a decade later, and I'm in the ecosystem and they got me. Yeah. That's, that's the point of Neo. That's the point of like all these other, you know, feelers is to just get a device in front of you that gives you options and hopefully you like one of those things and then you. Or sucked into that ecosystem.
37:38 David Imel? Yeah, I mean, I was the lead reviewer at Android Authority for five years. I didn't use an iPhone until the iPhone 13 when I reviewed it. And I didn't switch to an iPhone until the iPhone 15 because I had USB-C. I would have never touched an Apple device. And all of my dependencies were in Android. Like, I could use my world. People were... Nobody texted because when I lived in the Bay Area, everyone used Facebook Messenger. But then I moved here. And now, I swear, I am in so many iMessage group chats that every time I test an Android phone, they bully the [BLEEP].
38:07 Speaker 03 Now, look at you. What have they done to our lad?
38:10 David Imel? I know. And I know that you say that's not a real problem. But bullying is real, okay? I don't like crying. Do you like crying? It sucks.
38:19 Speaker 02 You should, uh, we should get on GroupMe.
38:20 David Imel? No.
38:21 Speaker 01 Oh, my God.
38:22 Andrew Manganelli? Fun fact.
38:23 Speaker 01 Oh, my God.
38:23 Speaker 02 Worst app of all time.
38:24 Andrew Manganelli? First messaging app of the MKBHD business.
38:28 David Imel? Yeah.
38:28 Andrew Manganelli? When Brandon and Vin started.
38:30 Speaker 01 It was a group.
38:30 Andrew Manganelli? Well, because Marquez and I were in a group me for our... Both of our ultimate teams at the time.
38:34 Speaker 01 Every Frisbee team I've played for for 15 years until like last year was a group me team.
38:38 David Imel? That's unbelievable.
38:39 Speaker 02 That was the most, like, feature-not-an-app app of all time.
38:43 Speaker 01 It's genuinely... I was talking about Flighty being one of the five best. GroupMe is one of the five worst apps of all time.
38:50 David Imel? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I want to make one final note related to this, and then we can take it to break. On the Windows 11 thing. Dave2D put out a really good video recently about this. And the kind of the gist of this was that a number of years ago, like five or six years ago, he had all of the Windows manufacturers send him laptops that were in the same price range as the Apple M1 Air, I believe. So he could compare them. And all these manufacturers were like, sure, yeah, like, here's our laptop that's that price. And then he asked all the same manufacturers this year to send him laptops that were in the same price range. And they were all like, no.
39:29 Speaker 01 Hmm.
39:30 David Imel? And I feel like that... Kind of distills the entire thing. That's all you really need to know.
39:35 Speaker 01 Cause they're all afraid.
39:37 Andrew Manganelli? They knew the video he was gonna make.
39:38 David Imel? It was gonna make it look negative. Yeah, it was gonna make it look terrible. They didn't really know at the time how insane M1 was, but they still feel five to six years behind at this point. So it's crazy.
39:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. So go watch the video if you haven't already.
39:51 Speaker 02 I want to say something nice about Windows.
39:52 David Imel? Go for it.
39:53 Speaker 02 Because everyone always tells me I'm too mean to my Windows green bubble people. I know those are two separate.
39:58 David Imel? Windows green bubble.
39:59 Speaker 02 To me, you're the same, but.
40:01 David Imel? Yeah, that's fair.
40:02 Speaker 02 Something nice about Windows. I like that they support old graphics engines. I like that I can still get a DirectX driver that runs on a modern Windows motherboard. I think that's cool. Apple does not do that. Pre, pre-metal stuff, very hard to run on macOS. DirectX stuff, very easy to run on a Windows computer.
40:24 David Imel? Pre-metal, we use like Rocks and Fire.
40:26 Speaker 02 Yes. That was the name of the old Apple graphics engine, actually. Rocks and Fire. Yeah, Steve Jobs was super against it.
40:34 David Imel? Yeah. And then when, uh, and then when Johnny Ive came in and he said aluminium and they knew it had to be metal.
40:40 Speaker 01 That's a great place to jump to trivia.
40:44 David Imel? What was the old graphics driver of Apple?
40:47 Speaker 02 Rocks and Fire. Today, we're doing a number question and it's Delta, not Price is Right rules.
40:52 David Imel? Is it United?
40:54 Speaker 02 No, it's Delta.
40:55 David Imel? We'll talk about United later.
40:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, we will. Will we?
40:58 David Imel? Yes. I thought.
40:59 Andrew Manganelli? I think we lost our chance to talk about United.
41:01 David Imel? Oh.
41:02 Speaker 02 Yeah. Also.
41:03 David Imel? We don't have to talk about it.
41:04 Speaker 02 That's really cool, but they're like the seventh airline to do that. So I was sort of like, why are we freaking out about this? Sky Couch. It's called Sky.
41:10 David Imel? It's mingling bad things.
41:12 Speaker 01 In, in regular class?
41:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:14 Speaker 01 Oh.
41:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:14 Speaker 01 I thought that was like a super, super premium crazy.
41:17 Speaker 02 No, no, most other airlines just call it. The, the first one that did it.
41:22 Speaker 02 Okay, United was like, United was like, guys, you can get a whole row.
41:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:27 Speaker 02 And then we'll like, we'll like, you can turn it into a bed.
41:29 Speaker 01 And mingle.
41:30 David Imel? Relax row? Relax row?
41:31 Speaker 02 Relax. So other airlines call it Sky Couch. I think Jet, JetBlue does this too. A bunch of the European airlines do it. This is not like a new groundbreaking thing. This is like a United catching up sort of thing.
41:42 David Imel? Well, they pretended it was.
41:43 Speaker 02 Anyway, well, of course, that's a business thing. But anyway, today's trivia question is.
41:48 David Imel? Yeah.
41:49 Speaker 02 Delta, how many Wikipedia pages have the title, Apple TV?
41:57 Speaker 01 Hmm.
41:59 Andrew Manganelli? I'm assuming it counts if it's like, Apple TV parentheses.
42:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's and, and, and I'm only accepting Apple Space TV, by the way. Those, that exact set of, was that nine characters and a space?
42:11 David Imel? What about like, would Apple TV Plus count?
42:13 Speaker 02 Seven characters and a space.
42:15 David Imel? Or does it just have to be Apple TV?
42:17 Speaker 02 It's A P P L E, space, TV, and then something in parentheses.
42:22 David Imel? Oh.
42:23 Speaker 02 How many Wikipedia pages have that exact title?
42:26 David Imel? Damn.
42:26 Speaker 01 Cool.
42:27 David Imel? Delta.
42:27 Speaker 02 Pretty good question.
42:28 Andrew Manganelli? Can we do a quick shout out?
42:29 David Imel? Yeah.
42:29 Speaker 02 Sure.
42:30 Andrew Manganelli? Someone on our subreddit watched waveform at a planetarium.
42:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:33 Andrew Manganelli? At their university. It was so cool.
42:36 David Imel? I kinda wanna know what that sounded like.
42:38 Andrew Manganelli? It was probably so loud.
42:39 Speaker 01 Probably like a bee's ass.
42:40 David Imel? Dude, I bet, no, it kinda sounded amazing.
42:42 Andrew Manganelli? It's probably the opposite.
42:43 David Imel? When I worked at Liberty Science Center, the planetarium was sick and it was also, it sounded really good. I don't remember why I remember it sounded really good, but the videos that they played, cause everything's a, it's like, you're looking up. Everything's around you, speakers everywhere. Your visual field is making that sound better. Yeah. At least my memory of it was that it sounded sick.
43:01 Speaker 02 I really hope they played the episode where Andrew says he can't name all the planets.
43:07 Andrew Manganelli? I just, I wish he stretched it. I wish there was a stretch to fit somehow because seeing one of our giant faces circular like over top.
43:16 David Imel? That is what it felt like to watch Project Hail Mary in the front row in 70 millimeter.
43:19 Andrew Manganelli? Oh man, I've seen the, the clips of like Oppenheimer from the front row and just like Crimson Sham.
43:24 David Imel? I watched Oppenheimer from the front row and I watched Project Hail Mary from the front row.
43:28 Speaker 02 Amaze, amaze.
43:29 David Imel? Amaze, amaze, amaze.
43:30 Speaker 01 Shout out to that person on our subreddit.
43:31 David Imel? Yeah.
43:32 Speaker 01 Uh, all right.
43:33 David Imel? I'll send it to you.
43:33 Speaker 01 We'll think about the trivia question. Answers at the end like usual. We'll be right back.
43:37 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, I don't, I don't think I can name all the planets.
43:39 Speaker 01 Still can't.
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45:23 Speaker 06 Are you tired of hearing about business, tech and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday and we decode money, power and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tiger fam.
45:54 Speaker 01 All right, welcome back. There is some news of a product that was killed, but not by Google. Big day. It was killed by OpenAI. It's called Sora. Thank God. Ring a bell? Anyone, anyone remembers Sora from a couple of months ago? I actually remember making a video when Sora first came out. We've made two, I think. Yeah, two now at this point of their video generation models. Yeah. Generate models, generate video slop. Yeah, but it would get higher and higher quality over time. And I remember the first videos from Sora, you know, they were, you know, Will Smith eating spaghetti, but like higher fidelity than before. And it got better and better and it costs more and more and more. And then OpenAI was like, mm.
46:33 David Imel? This costs too much.
46:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:34 David Imel? And I'm glad they made that realization. Because, I mean, there's other video generation models out there, but Sora was like the big one that everybody knows about from OpenAI. And they made the decision to kill the Sora app. And I assume the entire AI slop generator from top to bottom.
46:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:49 David Imel? Is now gone. They'll probably turn those GPUs towards something else that we're very excited about. Maybe. Uh, but yeah. No more Sora.
46:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, big day to dance on a grave.
47:00 Andrew Manganelli? I'm dancing, boy.
47:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:01 Andrew Manganelli? What's the meme of like? Is he giving the peace sign or the praying sign?
47:05 Speaker 01 Where he's like in front of the grave, yeah.
47:08 David Imel? Yeah, Sora was bad. The funny thing about this, uh, that we reported on when it happened was that Disney had made a $1 billion investment deal with OpenAI about Sora.
47:18 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
47:19 David Imel? And Disney said, we are going to invest a billion dollars in OpenAI over X period of time. And Sora is going to be in the Disney Plus app with AI-generated versions of our characters that you can just sort of scroll through on the Disney Plus app as a sort of like little Disney TikTok feature. This never launched and, uh, reportedly the Sora engineers didn't even really know that Sora was getting killed. They even put out a guidelines as to like their safety standards about Sora the day before they announced that they were killing it, which is very funny. And now that $1 billion deal is not happening. So, uh, OpenAI can't find money and now they really can't find money.
47:59 Speaker 01 I guess a billion dollars is like pocket change for them.
48:01 Andrew Manganelli? I mean, I guess how much money were they burning in the process of?
48:04 David Imel? Yeah, probably more than that. Um, and also one thing you should know is that pretty much every OpenAI deal is not real money. It's like the idea of money. Nothing ever really happens. Everyone's like, Nvidia is like, we're investing 1 trillion in OpenAI. And they're like, what does that mean? And then they just sort of do jazz hands and walk away. So, you know, none of the, these circular deals have, are inflating the stock market and that's why you're seeing a lot of red.
48:28 Speaker 01 A lot of them are like promises to invest over time or something.
48:32 David Imel? That's what the Disney one was. It was $1 billion investments over a period of time and it didn't even start.
48:38 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, no money had changed.
48:39 David Imel? No money had changed hands. Huge win. So it's not happening.
48:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:43 Speaker 02 Um, David, I'm going to give you $1 billion over the next three years.
48:48 David Imel? I hope my stock goes up.
48:49 Speaker 02 Psych.
48:52 David Imel? Yeah, so another funny thing about this is that Meta had Aqua hired a guy to lead the superintelligence lab. And the first product that they launched was an AI slop generator, video generator, that was supposed to compete with Sora. It was horrible. And I think they shut it down, too. Hopefully. But this is good for everybody. Like, we don't need more AI slop. If you're ever on Twitter, there's a lot of fruits cheating on each other on there. I don't know if you've seen this.
49:20 Andrew Manganelli? Fruits?
49:21 David Imel? Yeah, fruits.
49:22 Andrew Manganelli? What?
49:23 David Imel? Yeah.
49:24 Speaker 02 Wait, you guys haven't seen this?
49:25 David Imel? I'm jealous of you guys not seeing this.
49:27 Andrew Manganelli? I see mostly, because you can do like the remixes with YouTube videos. Every once in a while, I'll go to one of our old videos to reference something. And I'll just be like, blah, blah, blah, remix with this video. And it's a short of like, a pregnant cat.
49:39 David Imel? Yeah, that's, yeah, they're always pregnant.
49:41 Andrew Manganelli? And there's always like, a pregnant cat and a dad cat. And they're like, having a baby. And it's like, your voice over the background.
49:46 David Imel? Well, and the background music is always, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. It's really bad. It's like, I think it redefines.
49:56 Andrew Manganelli? Hallucination, are you laughing?
49:57 David Imel? It redefines the word slop. Like, really, it does.
50:01 Andrew Manganelli? It's also, this stuff makes a ton of misinformation out there.
50:04 David Imel? For sure.
50:05 Andrew Manganelli? Not just straight slop, like literal harmful videos.
50:08 David Imel? Yeah. So I'm glad it's gone.
50:11 Andrew Manganelli? I'm glad I missed that.
50:11 David Imel? Dance on the grave. Speaking of Instagram, Meta doing slop things, do you want to break this down for us?
50:19 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, I'll try and break this down really quick. IG DMs are no longer going to be end-to-end encrypted by May 8. This is kind of a, I mean, I think everyone knows what end-to-end encryption is. You and your, the recipient are the only ones who are able to see the message due to a code.
50:36 David Imel? Encryption.
50:36 Andrew Manganelli? Encryption, yeah.
50:37 David Imel? Yeah, encryption keys, yeah. Public and private keys.
50:42 Andrew Manganelli? So like, this feels like a really big deal headline-wise. But like, there's a couple weird things about this. That make me confused. So I'm going to read out a couple of the reasons why I think, or they've said that they're ending this encryption. And everyone can be the judge and why they think they really are ending it. So they've been, the way they announced this, first of all, Meta is not like a full post. They updated a 2022 news post about encryption to say that encryption is ending on May 8th. So like two months away.
51:12 David Imel? Burying it.
51:13 Andrew Manganelli? And a couple of reasons. One, a Meta spokesperson said that, which I didn't know about, the encryption is opt-in on Instagram, which I never knew about. I'm sure most people don't know about, and they said very, very few people on Instagram use encryption anyways.
51:28 David Imel? Because it's opt-in.
51:29 Andrew Manganelli? Because it's opt-in. Exactly.
51:31 David Imel? Yeah.
51:31 Andrew Manganelli? Poor, uh.
51:34 David Imel? Communication?
51:35 Andrew Manganelli? Not even just communication, just poor design. I mean, Meta probably doesn't want it to be encrypted because they want all of that. So like,
51:42 David Imel? Well, yeah, there's a lot of drama going on right now with like the EU and
51:46 Andrew Manganelli? Yes, that's my next.
51:46 David Imel? UK. Yeah.
51:47 Andrew Manganelli? So like the next point is FBI, Interpol, UK, safety organizations are all urging Meta to break encryption because of child safety, because of how much Meta in general and Instagram specifically is essentially harming children in so many different ways. One of them being through DMs and with encryption, if the correct people have the encryption on, it makes it really harder to find chat logs or stuff like that. So they've, they're urging Meta to end encryption. Another thing is Meta is just not getting rid of encryption WhatsApp. They're telling people to just move to WhatsApp if you want encryption.
52:23 David Imel? Just use WhatsApp, bro.
52:25 Andrew Manganelli? They literally pulled the just use WhatsApp. And then the last reason, which I think most of us can agree on is Meta's favorite. But maybe the one they don't want to admit is yes. Without encrypted DMs, they have the ability to use those DMs to target you with advertisements and train data, train AI data on your messages, which
52:49 Andrew Manganelli? The reason this is all kind of weird is it seems like most people aren't using it. So they're probably doing all of this anyways, but like the actual end to this is probably just saving them money because they don't have to run compute to.
52:59 David Imel? And saving them face with like all the, all the public stuff with the.
53:03 Andrew Manganelli? It's really nice that they're having other people like government agencies tell them to remove it so they can just be like, well, that's the reason we're removing it. Thanks for the training data. Thanks for the advertising.
53:13 David Imel? Yeah.
53:14 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, that's kind of, I'll let everybody be the judge of how they want to see this story with encryption, but I think the thing to know here is if you really care about privacy encryption, don't touch a meta product.
53:26 David Imel? Yeah.
53:27 Andrew Manganelli? That's like the easiest thing here is.
53:29 David Imel? The number one advertising company in the world.
53:31 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, I think Meta realizes that like a lot of the DMs on Instagram, they mostly care about you sharing reels and sharing posts and pushing you to other parts of Instagram to spend more time on and get, gather more data to spend more money. So they don't really care about this. WhatsApp is still encrypted if you want to use that, but I personally would just stay away from meta products if I really cared about my privacy.
53:51 David Imel? Yeah. I mean, speaking of which, they just announced yesterday as well that they're going to integrate sort of like buy now buttons into reels. TikTok shop has this where you can be watching a reel or something and then it will show a little like, you can buy this now and it outlinks to a store.
54:07 Andrew Manganelli? Of course.
54:08 David Imel? Instagram is going to add that, so.
54:10 Andrew Manganelli? YouTube Shorts has this already probably for like little product shelves.
54:13 David Imel? Dude, on Amazon, what is like Prime TV, Prime, what do they call it?
54:18 Andrew Manganelli? Prime video.
54:19 David Imel? Prime video, yeah. You'll be watching, like you'll be watching like Fallout or something, right? And then it cuts to an ad and in the ad, there will be a purchase on Amazon button that you can just do straight. It's like, holy moly, we are, because I, yeah, I only wanted to watch Fallout and I haven't used Amazon Prime TV in like a really long time. And I was like, wow, we're in the, we're in the dystopia where you can literally, the product is in your face and there's just a one click buy now and ship to me immediately button.
54:47 Andrew Manganelli? I mean, with.
54:48 David Imel? It is so crazy.
54:48 Andrew Manganelli? The like UI on all these short form contents, how far are we away from it just feeling like the old annotation like scamming where just there's like 20 different boxes up on your screen because we have all these. Different sets of guidelines for different short form because depending on where you put text or something in a video, it's going to get covered by a username, an icon, the description and like now we're adding shops and stuff. This is already a really small form factor of what we're watching. There's not a lot of real estate there. So adding all of that on is
55:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's crazy.
55:16 Andrew Manganelli? We're just not even going to watch videos anymore.
55:18 Speaker 01 It's okay. They're pushing you to use Instagram on the iPad because all they want you to do on that is watch reels anyway. And then you won't misclick because it's a bigger screen.
55:26 Andrew Manganelli? Wow, true. Big brain.
55:28 Speaker 01 Got him.
55:30 Speaker 01 Kind of related, the US government has officially banned consumer routers made outside of the United States, which by the way, pretty much all of them.
55:39 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, essentially all. The only one I could really think of that's not is Starlink because that's made in Texas.
55:44 Speaker 01 Is that a router?
55:46 Andrew Manganelli? Yes.
55:46 Speaker 01 I guess.
55:47 Andrew Manganelli? But like it's not what you would think of in the general sense of like a router when you already have an ISP and you're using it as a router in your house. So like similar to banning drones made in foreign countries, the FCC is adding consumer grade routers made outside of the US to a covered list. And if you're not sure what that is, the covered list is a list that the FCC and Homeland Security Bureau use to add devices that quote, pose an unacceptable risk to the national security of the United States or the security and safety of US persons. Like you just mentioned, we're all pretty familiar with where technology is manufactured. It's not in the US.
56:24 Speaker 01 And like It's not here.
56:25 Andrew Manganelli? Seriously, it's gotta be 90 plus percent of routers are made outside of the
56:29 Speaker 01 I'm just looking up all, I'm going one by one to look through all the router companies that They're all like Taiwanese. Yeah, they're all not made here.
56:35 Andrew Manganelli? But even some of them might be stationed or like headquartered in the US. They're still not manufactured in the US. So like, first of all, if you already own a router, that's doesn't meet this criteria, it's gonna work fine. But the new ones then coming into the company, into the United States will be put on a list where the radios won't be authorized.
56:56 David Imel? It's just insane, like, it's so isolationist to say anyone not made in the United
57:01 Andrew Manganelli? I think that's wild.
57:02 David Imel? Like, it is, it would be more understandable if it was like from specific countries that the government deems to be adversaries or whatever, but the fact that it is not in the United, it's like, I cannot name a single router company that is based in the United States. They probably exist, but they are not mass market.
57:19 Andrew Manganelli? I think TP-Link is now headquartered in California.
57:23 David Imel? But they're probably made in Taiwan.
57:25 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah.
57:25 David Imel? Yeah. Yeah, or Vietnam.
57:27 Andrew Manganelli? I forget exactly where that, a lot of ones I was finding were made in Vietnam, but still that is just straight up foreign country that is not the US.
57:33 Speaker 03 What does this do for like IP or?
57:35 Andrew Manganelli? ISPs, that's exactly what I was thinking, like what Xfinity, my guess right now is Xfinity, Verizon probably have just a boatload of routers in a warehouse somewhere that they're the ones sending to you, but like that needs to update.
57:48 David Imel? Well, I also know that there's sort of a workaround you can do where like all of the parts are basically made outside of the US and then like it's, there was a thing that some kind, yeah, there's some, the thing that some companies were doing for a while where it was like all the parts but one were already assembled. And then they would ship all the parts and that one part to the United States and they would put it in the thing and they'd be like, made in the United States.
58:09 Andrew Manganelli? Well, there's like guidelines for made in the USA or assembled in the USA. Like there's things that they need to, like more than 60%.
58:16 David Imel? Oh yeah, like the Trump phone, right? Like the Trump phone, yeah.
58:18 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, made in the US.
58:19 David Imel? No, not even allegedly.
58:20 Andrew Manganelli? Also with the Verizon, Xfinity routers and stuff, does that count? Because it says consumer. Yeah. How much consumer? So consumer, they define as for residential use and installed by the customer.
58:32 Speaker 03 Installed by the customer.
58:33 Andrew Manganelli? Okay, but any Xfinity router you can have just shipped to you and I can install it. I mean, maybe that's, it's, it's a weird thing where the way they're.
58:40 Speaker 03 The company's the one buying them in bulk. So I don't know if this would like apply to them, you know?
58:44 Andrew Manganelli? The fact that they say consumer grade, I think it's less of consumer bought and consumer grade. Again, it's like, it's kind of weird. What they're doing is either companies can apply for like an extension to be allowed into the United States. If they're proving that they're working on creating a manufacturing aspect in the United States to pass that stupid.
59:05 Speaker 01 Nobody's gonna do that.
59:07 Andrew Manganelli? We've tried this so many times, it doesn't work. Or like, similar to what DJI does, the company's just not going to release it in the US for X amount of time until this either stops or just not care.
59:17 Speaker 01 Haven't we seen companies like buy a building, like an old manufacturing plant in the US and then just slap a label on it and be like, "We're gonna for sure make stuff here." And then you go, "Okay, you're good."
59:27 David Imel? They do a big groundbreaking thing in Arizona and they're like, "Look at all these jobs," and then just leave them empty.
59:32 Andrew Manganelli? The United States is claiming the routers were directly implicated in the Volt, Flax, and Salt Typhoon cyberattacks, which were a set of cyberattacks a while.
59:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, but I'm confused because the Salt Typhoon ones was about Cisco routers.
59:44 Andrew Manganelli? Okay, so this is the funny thing. The United States?
59:47 Speaker 02 It's just like, what?
59:48 Andrew Manganelli? There were Cisco and Netgear routers that were designed by US companies, but the reason they were vulnerable is because the companies stopped providing updates for them. So they were unupdated security risk routers, which has nothing to do with who made them. That has to do with who's continuing the software up there. So this is like saying, "Hey, hackers targeted vulnerable things because they're vulnerable and probably shouldn't be used or should have been updated anymore." It has nothing to do with the fact. I get that there is like foreign countries that maybe we're worried about and stuff like this, but this feels like a blanket ban that is not actually helping anything.
1:00:22 Speaker 01 Heavy-handed government intervention in tech? No.
1:00:26 Andrew Manganelli? No. It's, yeah. So the residential thing I'm really confused about, because I'm also confused there is, if the main thing we're trying to protect is like government agencies and government information and stuff like me, maybe government shouldn't be using residential. That's what the ban should be. Government should stop using residential-grade routers in like buildings or the ones made in these certain companies, but like, why do I need to change? Why does that make a difference if I'm using?
1:00:55 Speaker 01 Or have one US company like make a government-grade one. Like change one of the routers to be government-grade, add features.
1:01:02 Speaker 02 I think in theory, the reason it matters, if you have one, Andrew, is that you are sort of inherently plugged into your telecom company's network and like that is who all of these attacks were against, were like, we're getting into telecom companies' networks. I don't know quite enough about this whole thing.
1:01:18 Andrew Manganelli? There's obviously so much more going on than what we're saying here, but it still feels like this wild blanket ban that doesn't really...
1:01:25 Speaker 02 No, I agree. And also watch... This is, you know, me predicting the future, but watch Oracle launch a new line of US-based routers.
1:01:33 David Imel? Ah, wait.
1:01:35 Speaker 02 Next few days.
1:01:35 David Imel? Oh, my God, I didn't even think about that.
1:01:36 Speaker 02 Yeah. No, no, no, I haven't. This is not a thing that's happened.
1:01:39 David Imel? I know, but it will. You know it will, and they'll be called Freedom Router.
1:01:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:01:45 Andrew Manganelli? So, God. The CyberTec were also on like, energy transportation and water infrastructure stuff as well. So it's not just straight up communicate or just communications, although those were in there. I also, I guessing the router was directly implicated. I was like, well, yeah, it was online. It has to go through a router, but it's because those routers were missing their security updates and had vulnerabilities, which is like, yes, if things on the internet have vulnerabilities, people are going to attack them. They shouldn't, but.
1:02:12 Speaker 02 I really don't know enough about this, but it's always been my understanding that like, you know, a big part of what routers are doing are like assembling these packets that are going out over, you know? And so if they're putting the, like, a router with malware on it can put
1:02:24 Andrew Manganelli? For sure.
1:02:24 Speaker 02 Stuff in a packet that can make it pretty deep inside a network.
1:02:29 David Imel? Yeah.
1:02:30 Speaker 02 That is like the most like middle schooler friendly way I can describe network communications.
1:02:34 David Imel? That's why Cisco was supposed to prevent this. That's their whole thing.
1:02:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:02:38 David Imel? They do B to B.
1:02:39 Speaker 02 It wasn't him. Is that Cisco?
1:02:43 Andrew Manganelli? No.
1:02:43 David Imel? What? Is that a rapper too?
1:02:44 Speaker 02 Damn it.
1:02:45 Andrew Manganelli? Shaggy.
1:02:46 David Imel? Shaggy, yeah.
1:02:47 Andrew Manganelli? That's not the first time you've made that mistake.
1:02:50 Speaker 03 Wait, this confuses me because I feel like if, if a company in the US made routers and those routers were not updated and weren't patched over time, they would also be susceptible
1:03:03 David Imel? Yes.
1:03:03 Speaker 03 to these attacks.
1:03:03 David Imel? Yes.
1:03:04 Speaker 03 Correct. So what does this do?
1:03:06 David Imel? I don't know. It's just they're going after the wrong pro- I don't know. I imagine.
1:03:10 Speaker 03 That's a very popular attack vector.
1:03:11 David Imel? I imagine it is, it is all a bunch of like bull to just try to, they're so obsessed with stimulating American manufacturing, but they don't understand like the amount of work that it requires to actually build an entire business in the US making various things, like routers. Like, how often do people buy routers? You know?
1:03:31 Andrew Manganelli? Once every five to 10 years.
1:03:32 David Imel? It's just.
1:03:33 Speaker 02 Most people never buy a router.
1:03:35 David Imel? Yeah, they rent it from their telecom.
1:03:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:37 David Imel? I just, I don't know, man.
1:03:38 Speaker 02 Counterpoint, David, if you had 1 million Optimus robots, you could make them for free whenever you want it.
1:03:43 David Imel? You know, I didn't.
1:03:44 Speaker 02 Think about that.
1:03:44 David Imel? Think about that. How much would an Optimus robot cost me?
1:03:47 Speaker 02 It costs, well, $0.
1:03:48 David Imel? You can't afford nothing.
1:03:49 Speaker 02 Made by other Optimus robots.
1:03:51 David Imel? How much would it cost me, though?
1:03:52 Speaker 02 I don't think you're allowed to have one.
1:03:55 David Imel? Then how am I gonna get my router?
1:03:57 Speaker 01 Send the robotaxi for it.
1:03:58 David Imel? I'll just use Starlink. So, um, we want to talk about this because it was kind of hot news in the journalism world this week. Effectively, you guys probably know Grammarly, and there was also an app called Superhuman. And then Grammarly bought Superhuman, and now Grammarly is Superhuman, and Grammarly is a product of Superhuman. That's your, that's your breakdown.
1:04:18 Speaker 01 Confusing at all?
1:04:18 David Imel? Not confusing at all. Multiple months ago, but only discovered fairly recently, uh, people discovered this feature within Grammarly that effectively gives you advice based on various different writers that are well-known in the writing world, or like the tech writing world, or things like that. So if you were writing an article, or you were writing, I don't know, anything you're writing, you could say like, "Hey, what would Neelai Patel think about this writing that I'm doing?"
1:04:45 Speaker 02 So funny.
1:04:46 David Imel? Yes.
1:04:47 Speaker 02 Are you serious?
1:04:48 David Imel? I'm serious.
1:04:49 Andrew Manganelli? I don't know if it was necessarily you asked Neelai Patel, but it was like if you asked a question about writing an article, and it would say like, "Oh," it was called Expert Review, and something would come up as an expert is here to give you an example. And that example would pop up as like, "I can't believe I'm saying this out loud." But it said Neelai Patel, and with a verified checkmark like Twitter.
1:05:08 David Imel? Which is sitting there for no reason.
1:05:11 Speaker 01 No reason.
1:05:11 Andrew Manganelli? And then it would say like-
1:05:12 David Imel? Not verified.
1:05:13 Andrew Manganelli? It would give some piece of advice, and then to their credit, it would say like, "This is inspired by Vergecast hosts and Verge editor in chief, Neelai Patel. Because of blah blah blah, have a source button," and then, first of all, no one's gonna click that source button. That doesn't count. So yeah, that's what a verified checkmark Neelai Patel would pop up and say.
1:05:36 David Imel? Yeah.
1:05:36 Andrew Manganelli? Hey, not just him, a bunch of other journalists.
1:05:37 David Imel? And it would also do line edits, too. Like if you had, it would like make suggestions based on your writing. And, um, they, they were like, "Oh yeah, we pulled specific like pieces of work from various different journalists, and then we put it in this AI model, and now it can make suggestions." And it's like, "That's just not how this works at all." Like, it's insane. And, uh, this feature's been deployed for multiple months, but people only found it recently, so-
1:06:00 Andrew Manganelli? Well, no, no, it was deployed, it took a while for people to go, "It's gone now." They took it away a little while.
1:06:05 David Imel? Yeah, it was found recently by, like, it blew up-
1:06:08 Andrew Manganelli? I think a few months, I think last year.
1:06:11 David Imel? Grammarly had added this feature late last year. Not a lot of people were using it. No one really noticed it. And then recently, it kind of popped up in the media because people started noticing it. And all these people started writing about it because the people that were writing about it were the people it was impersonating, effectively. Every article was like, "This is impersonating authors, including me." It was kind of crazy. So, funny enough, Neelai has this podcast called Decoder. He had already scheduled to have the superhuman slash Grammarly CEO on, like, the following week. And to that guy's credit, he actually did go on Decoder to talk to Neelai about it, and the interview was very tense.
1:06:50 Andrew Manganelli? From the get-go.
1:06:51 David Imel? From the get-go.
1:06:52 Andrew Manganelli? From the start, yeah.
1:06:53 David Imel? And so, it became this whole kind of argument about what is attribution versus what is just stealing and using someone's likeness. And the CEO really just defends the idea that's attribution. He talks about, "Oh, there's a link that you can go to." And it clearly says that, "Oh, this is inspired by this person." But like, it had the checkmark.
1:07:14 Speaker 01 The checkmark is...
1:07:14 David Imel? The checkmark.
1:07:15 Speaker 01 The checkmark is... You can't defend it when you do... Because the check... Everyone knows what the checkmark means. In every other context, it means this is verified from this person.
1:07:24 David Imel? Right.
1:07:24 Speaker 01 If it's on social media, the checkmark means this is definitely the person you think it is.
1:07:28 David Imel? Theoretically.
1:07:29 Speaker 01 Why do they put a checkmark here? They put a checkmark here to convince you that this is legit and this is definite... Like, they're not trying to necessarily convince you that this is actually the human editing your work, but they get about as close to that as possible. And it's definitely impersonation.
1:07:45 Andrew Manganelli? You can't convince me otherwise that it's not attempting to trick a person into thinking this is for real. I don't care what he said in that interview. I know it says that the... Like, under that, "inspired by", but to put the checkmark in is just straight-up lying.
1:07:59 David Imel? Yeah. Yeah. There was a class... There is a class action lawsuit going on, which is, I think, why the CEO couldn't really say a lot, because then it could be used against him in court. And it's insane to me that he would even do the interview when he knows Neelai is very combative about these kind of things.
1:08:15 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well, then, if he doesn't go on the interview, then the article is about how he pulled out of the interview.
1:08:19 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, then it looks even worse.
1:08:20 David Imel? It's either do you get that?
1:08:22 Speaker 03 I don't think that looks worse.
1:08:23 Andrew Manganelli? He made himself look worse in that interview.
1:08:25 David Imel? Yeah, yeah, he made himself look good. We definitely recommend that you go listen to this or watch it. It's both on their podcast feed.
1:08:32 Andrew Manganelli? Watch it.
1:08:32 David Imel? Watch it, yeah.
1:08:33 Andrew Manganelli? Seeing facial expressions in it is well worth it.
1:08:35 David Imel? Yeah.
1:08:36 Andrew Manganelli? Also, the CEO's, whatever laptop he's using should be blown up because the wobble of the screen as he's talking, you're just watching him the whole time.
1:08:46 Speaker 03 It was a touchscreen, Andrew.
1:08:47 Andrew Manganelli? If you watch it at 1.5x screens, it looks like he's in the middle of an earthquake. It's wild.
1:08:53 David Imel? Yeah. This, though, this really reminds me of when we had these conversations about these AI image generators and video generators where if you would just put in like Tech Reviewer, like Marquez would just show up, you know, it reminds me of the whole like, who's in this training data? How are they stealing it?
1:09:08 Speaker 03 Didn't we do that recently?
1:09:09 David Imel? It was a long time ago.
1:09:10 Speaker 03 Oh, okay.
1:09:10 David Imel? It was Sora. Well, there was Sora, but there was also like Gemini, there was.
1:09:16 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah.
1:09:16 David Imel? Yeah, there was early ChatGPT stuff.
1:09:18 Speaker 03 There was something a few weeks ago where I literally put in like a Tech Reviewer and it just popped out Marquez.
1:09:22 David Imel? Oh, yeah. When we were out South by Southwest, I said, I said, add a Tech Reviewer to this photo and it just added Marquez and then it said, but it did say, I've added MKPHD. It's which, that's a whole, that's the same thing. It's like likeness versus.
1:09:37 Andrew Manganelli? The weird thing about this is Neel I was looking at. So the reason that the interview is so good is because like there's personal stakes. Like it's literally impersonating Neel I. So he's the one interviewing, which makes it much more intense. But like, what the suggestion it wrote says it's from like using his body of work at The Verge and Verge cast. He's like, I would never say anything like this. I've never said anything.
1:09:59 David Imel? Yeah.
1:10:00 Andrew Manganelli? Ever like this. So it just feels like straight up lying. To the credit of the CEO, he said like, this didn't work out really well. How are we supposed to get into the mind of an editor by only using their, the final published works?
1:10:14 Speaker 03 Great question.
1:10:14 Andrew Manganelli? You can't.
1:10:15 David Imel? I know.
1:10:16 Andrew Manganelli? Maybe you can. And that's what they killed it, which I'm glad they got rid of it. But just, that's just impersonation and lying at that point. Who's to say that couldn't have just been like an AI software where Marquez, Marques Brownlee pops up, verified checkmark and says a piece of advice that Marquez doesn't believe in at all. Windows is the best, the best editing for 8K videos. Like, I love my Windows laptop. And then all it has to say is inspired by Marques Brownlee's body of work for, he's an eight, 20 million Tech Reviewer, blah, blah, blah, source. It's all, it's
1:10:50 Speaker 01 I made it.
1:10:52 Andrew Manganelli? It sucks.
1:10:53 Speaker 01 Trust me, bro.
1:10:53 Andrew Manganelli? It's very, trust me, bro, and also using the likeness of someone else to prove credibility. And yeah.
1:10:59 Speaker 01 I don't see how, yeah, I don't see how you ship this feature and not think it's gonna blow up in your face. Cause in the best case version of this feature, it's like, wow, we're gonna have testimonials of people going like, I love this product because it lets me get my work checked by these professionals. And the professional's going, no, obviously I would not, that's like not what I would have done.
1:11:19 Andrew Manganelli? He said, the reason this, the small team, he kept saying small team.
1:11:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:22 Andrew Manganelli? He kept like, he wants to pass through that many people under the bus, which he should be under the bus cause he ultimately approves it as CEO. But like, if you are, he keeps saying, you as the person, like, you might want, like, Grammarly is supposed to be your, uh, your language arts teacher sitting right there and helping you make decisions. So he's like, this is a version where some experts you really respect might be right there helping you make corrections into something.
1:11:46 Speaker 01 And Eli was like, but I wouldn't make those.
1:11:48 Andrew Manganelli? But I wouldn't make those, I'm not there. It's like, yeah, the reason we like all these people is the like, personal connection we have to them personally. I don't want an AI just pretending they're them. It's, this is basically, you're getting catfished.
1:12:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, Eli even said his line edits are usually just like, feels messy. And that's the whole thing, you know?
1:12:06 Andrew Manganelli? Anyone who's ever had an editor knows that it's not very coherent thought.
1:12:10 Speaker 01 No, it's just a lot of back and forth and.
1:12:13 Andrew Manganelli? I can't wait until Final Cut adds a Marquez editor. And then like, I make a J cut and it's like, great job, Marquez would have done this too.
1:12:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, that feels bad. It could happen. It was really bad.
1:12:23 Speaker 02 I think Grammarly took the wrong route with this product. I think instead of like people, like, obviously Neelai, great writer, people love his writing. But I think they should have gone with people who are known for being unbelievably opinionated writers and just force like, like, I wanna be writing an email to like Marquez about our health insurance plan or something like that. And then Grammarly's like, and then a little AI Slavoj Zizek, the Slovenian philosopher pops up and is like, but what does this email have to do with the struggle of the self? And I'm like.
1:12:51 Speaker 01 I'd like that.
1:12:52 Speaker 02 Yes, distract me. Susan Sontag comes up and is like, where are the mentions of gender? You know, Hector Berlioz pops up and is like, Ellis, you mentioned nothing about Beethoven's terrible use of the French horn.
1:13:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's, that's fair. I think Clippy could have done any of that. Clippy could have done that. Cliffy could have done all of that.
1:13:09 Andrew Manganelli? That's what you stop. Yeah. Stop replicating actual people and giving them that attribution is such a bull argument.
1:13:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:13:16 David Imel? Free advice to any CEO. If you run a company that does any sort of AI product and your goal is to have it replace people in any way, think a little harder about how you think that's gonna go.
1:13:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:13:28 David Imel? Just a little harder.
1:13:29 Andrew Manganelli? Just hire funny guy.
1:13:30 David Imel? Yeah.
1:13:31 Andrew Manganelli? Take some accountability. All of them just seem to be like, oh, well, if the models we're using are gonna like pull up the work of blah, blah, blah, and they're gonna use that, then that's what the models are gonna do. Shut the fuck up, dude. Are you serious?
1:13:44 David Imel? Yeah. I mean, every, pretty much every AI CEO makes the argument that this is not, this is just an average of like a bunch of stuff. So it's not copying everything. It's just making new content based on like a, every, every AI CEO is like, well, you could have read all of Neelai's writing and then edited like him. And it's like, no, you can't. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
1:14:06 Andrew Manganelli? Learning and also like, it sounds like, it's so funny that the one art example they're arguing over the whole time is a bad, like just straight up didn't work in the voice at all.
1:14:15 David Imel? Yeah.
1:14:15 Andrew Manganelli? Which makes it look even worse.
1:14:16 Speaker 01 I think the flaw with that logic would be thinking that all of Neelai's thoughts and, and experience that he's ever had exists in a training data set.
1:14:23 David Imel? Yeah.
1:14:24 Speaker 01 Which as a human with their own thoughts and experiences that they have not submitted to a training data set, no.
1:14:32 David Imel? I mean, ultimately, that's what people in Silicon Valley generally think. Like, they think that you can model everything. They think that with enough information, with enough data, with enough training, you can simulate everything, you know? And so they're like, maybe you can, but we're not even close to that yet.
1:14:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. That's, that's probably why this interview is so good. Cause it's one of the people who you think you're, you have enough data from. And it's like, no, you just don't have enough data. And frankly, I don't want you to have enough data to simulate who I am.
1:15:00 David Imel? Right. Cause they're not paying.
1:15:01 Speaker 02 Because the data that Neelai's brain was trained on are things like his childhood, like things that you can't like, you can't do that, bro. It doesn't work.
1:15:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. So.
1:15:12 David Imel? Until you put it in a vat.
1:15:14 Speaker 02 No.
1:15:15 Andrew Manganelli? Go, go listen to the interview. It's fantastic.
1:15:17 David Imel? We'll watch the interview.
1:15:18 Andrew Manganelli? Or watch.
1:15:18 David Imel? So you can get like seasickness, yeah.
1:15:20 Speaker 03 Also part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
1:15:22 David Imel? VMPN, baby. Okay, well, I think we're gonna take it to one more ad break.
1:15:29 Andrew Manganelli? And then I'm gonna yap about a mouse again afterwards.
1:15:31 David Imel? That's right. We love mice. We love mice. We love Ellis yapping about speakers.
1:15:37 Speaker 02 The one person that has read Hector Berlioz's treatise on orchestration, other than me, I hope you enjoyed my little reference.
1:15:45 David Imel? He's famous. I'm sure a lot of people did.
1:15:48 Andrew Manganelli? I don't know who that is. Ellis, I agree with everything you say and love everything you say about audio. I've never interrupted you once about it.
1:15:53 Speaker 02 It's this part of, it's this composer who wrote a book about how to write for all the instruments a long time ago, and he was really angry, and there's this whole passage in the French horn section where instead of talking about how to write for French horn, he just goes into this giant beef with Beethoven, and he's like, that guy, Beethoven sucked at French horn. He was a coward on the French horn. It's very fun to read.
1:16:14 David Imel? Oh, wait. Oh, sorry.
1:16:16 Andrew Manganelli? I did not, that was a soundboard. That was not me.
1:16:18 David Imel? Sorry. Ellis, I forgot you were talking. What, what were you? No, that's interesting.
1:16:24 Speaker 02 I do that to Andrew in the, in the weekly meeting yesterday where he said something, and then immediately I was like, but what about this thing that Andrew just said? And then I had to DM and say, I'm sorry, did you say something?
1:16:37 Andrew Manganelli? Karma. That was karma.
1:16:39 Speaker 03 Karmic retribution. Okay, next question. What next question? Question number two.
1:16:43 David Imel? Yeah.
1:16:44 Speaker 03 What year? And we're doing closest without going over. Yeah. What year did Apple release Apple Maps?
1:16:53 Speaker 02 Oh.
1:16:55 David Imel? Oh.
1:16:55 Speaker 03 Wait, you have access to the doc? Wait, don't look, don't look. I want you to guess too.
1:17:00 David Imel? Was that, that was the year that people were driving into the, the lakes, right?
1:17:04 Speaker 01 I remember how poorly the launch went.
1:17:08 David Imel? I gotta remember the year. Okay.
1:17:09 Andrew Manganelli? There's a joke in Silicon Valley.
1:17:11 David Imel? This is a WWDC announcement. Yeah.
1:17:12 Andrew Manganelli? It was a dub dub announcement?
1:17:14 David Imel? I'm pretty sure.
1:17:14 Andrew Manganelli? In Silicon Valley, the show, they're doing like a control group, and they're like, oh, this is bad. And he goes, how bad? Apple Maps bad?
1:17:23 David Imel? Sick.
1:17:23 Speaker 01 That is the bar.
1:17:24 Speaker 03 One more mouse thing to talk about.
1:17:27 Andrew Manganelli? I'll make it quick.
1:17:28 Speaker 03 I won't.
1:17:28 David Imel? We'll be right back.
1:17:38 Speaker 01 Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. So AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from. But when that context is scattered across tools like threads and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying kind of blind. That's the problem Jira solves. What's the gold tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all of these pieces together from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more, so nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping. Learn more at jira.com.
1:18:23 Speaker 01 That's J-I-R-A dot com.
1:18:26 Speaker 05 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
1:18:56 Speaker 07 The people of the great nation of Texas have not elected a Democrat to the Senate since 1988, but this year, that might change. James Talarico, a Presbyterian seminarian, schoolteacher, self-confessed, cringe progressive
1:19:09 Speaker 02 Yes, I was doing it maybe in an annoying way.
1:19:12 Speaker 07 is leading in most polls. His opponent, Republican Attorney General Ken Paxton, is facing two headwinds: the price of gas and everything. Also, Paxton has done some very, very bad stuff. So Republicans have been trying some messaging, questioning whether Talarico is man enough for Texas.
1:19:31 Speaker 02 Two week for Texas. Tofu Talarico?
1:19:35 Speaker 07 They're questioning some other things, too.
1:19:36 Speaker 02 I love you too, sir, in a totally platonic way. To be clear, I'm the vice president, not James Talarico.
1:19:45 Speaker 07 Memaw would be appalled. But what do Texans think? Are they buying it? On Today Explained from Vox, we pay a visit.
1:19:52 Speaker 02 Born to be a cowboy.
1:19:55 Speaker 07 Today Explained drops every weekday.
1:19:57 Andrew Manganelli? All right, welcome back to Andrew's Mouse Corner again. I kind of wanted both of these the same week, but then I kind of thought this one was never coming in. And then it came in after we did the Ponage Sim 3 last week.
1:20:08 Speaker 03 You gotta order one for next week now so you keep it going.
1:20:10 Andrew Manganelli? That will never happen.
1:20:11 Speaker 03 You just order a Cyborg Rat 7.
1:20:14 Andrew Manganelli? If you order the Cyborg Rat 7, I'll do a review on the podcast next week.
1:20:18 Speaker 03 Okay, noted.
1:20:19 Andrew Manganelli? I will smash that thing, buddy. This is the Logitech Pro X2 Super Strike. Not a great name, but.
1:20:27 Speaker 03 A lot of words.
1:20:28 Andrew Manganelli? The, uh, this is kind of like the most hyped mouse in the, the scene right now for a couple of reasons. One, Logitech G Pro has been kind of like the de facto tried and true gaming mouse for years at this point. I think there, you could look at like Valorant or Counter Strike stats of how many people use a specific mouse. And I think the G Pro is top of the list every single time. But so this is the exact same form factor, but Logitech finally decided to do something kind of cool because they've been kind of boring for a while. This mouse on its, uh, the exterior, it's just everything you'd kind of expect. Expect it's not too flashy. It's, it's nothing like really bad. It's nothing really good. It's just a good form factor, two buttons, symmetrical.
1:21:13 Andrew Manganelli? It's, it's everything you would want. But this one is doing something a little different. This actually has no switches, not mechanical or options. There are no switches. This is fully haptic.
1:21:25 Speaker 03 What?
1:21:25 Andrew Manganelli? Similar to like.
1:21:26 Speaker 03 Hall effect?
1:21:27 Andrew Manganelli? No, it's not Hall effect. It's haptic. Those are optical switches. It's like your MacBook trackpad, how it is essentially a fake click. And the reason I want to bring it on to this is because I can get reactions from all of you. Because the easiest way to test what this feels like is I will hand this to you. And I want you to click the buttons. You can even do them in the microphone. Click the buttons right now. What do they feel like?
1:21:51 Speaker 01 Mush.
1:21:51 Andrew Manganelli? Like broken, right?
1:21:53 Speaker 01 They do move.
1:21:54 Andrew Manganelli? They do move.
1:21:55 Speaker 01 But feels like I'm not actuating.
1:21:57 Andrew Manganelli? Sure. Now the switch on the bottom, flip that on. And now start clicking.
1:22:05 Andrew Manganelli? The sound is not fantastic, but.
1:22:07 Speaker 01 The sound's not great, but there is a.
1:22:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:22:11 Andrew Manganelli? There's a freaking thing.
1:22:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:22:13 Andrew Manganelli? I'll let David try this now. This is off.
1:22:15 David Imel? Would you say that you just want to click? You just want to click?
1:22:18 Andrew Manganelli? Subscribe.
1:22:20 David Imel? Subscribe. Yeah, that feels mushy.
1:22:22 Andrew Manganelli? It feels broken, right?
1:22:23 David Imel? Yeah, it feels broken.
1:22:24 Andrew Manganelli? Now flip it on, yeah.
1:22:29 David Imel? Yeah.
1:22:29 Speaker 03 This is amazing audio.
1:22:30 Andrew Manganelli? It's great for all the listeners. I mean, we're getting.
1:22:33 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. Okay. So it goes from feeling like broken to like there's something there. There's still a lot of.
1:22:39 Andrew Manganelli? I agree with you. I'm not like full. Well, so that's one thing.
1:22:42 David Imel? That's higher than I would like.
1:22:43 Andrew Manganelli? That's something that now we can do with this mouse is we can change a couple of different things. We can change actuation force.
1:22:49 David Imel? Oh.
1:22:49 Andrew Manganelli? We can change essentially like the clickiness of it. And you can change what it's calling rapid trigger, which is essentially was really popular on keyboards a couple of years ago. Stuff like snap tap where not only. It got worked in in certain things like it. It could do things that programs would make it think was possibly cheating. Because essentially what it's doing is if you have an actuation length going down until the button's actuated. Essentially what you could do is the lift off to reset that could be very, very small. You can, you can make it really small. So a way this can be really beneficial is if you're in a game where, let's say you have a gun that's semi-automatic. So each click is one shot.
1:23:34 Andrew Manganelli? If you can, if that gun is really strong, but the, the like weakness of it is a semi-automatic, but now you can make your actuation really small and your reset activation really short as well. You could just, and it feels like an automatic gun.
1:23:46 Speaker 01 It would hurt my finger. That's pretty sick that you can get.
1:23:48 Andrew Manganelli? And so, right now, I have the right, the left click as a five in your haptics.
1:23:56 Speaker 01 Out of five.
1:23:56 Andrew Manganelli? Five out of five, and the right is on one. So if you click these now, it's not a big difference, but you, there are five levels of activation in, per button, buttons can be different as well. It's just, this is kind of a cool thing in the mouse world, I guess. This is brand new. This is within a month.
1:24:16 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:24:17 Andrew Manganelli? Um, I don't know if you want to try left versus right. Like I said, this isn't like the craziest thing, but like, the ability to have this in a mouse is such a smaller version of where you can put this in versus a keyboard where you have full PCBs and individual switches and everything.
1:24:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:24:34 Andrew Manganelli? Um, so I thought this was kind of cool. I don't have much to say about it.
1:24:39 Speaker 01 How much is it?
1:24:40 Andrew Manganelli? A hundred and eighty dollars. There is one other cool thing, which is super niche, which is a lot of people, when they're doing something called bunny hopping in, in first-person shooters, is they actually change their jump button from the spacebar to the wheel so that you can just, bunny hopping is when you jump and you hit the jump like the second you hit the ground, which carries momentum in a lot of games, which lets you move faster. So when people do it on the wheel, it makes it so you're always hitting the jump as you land, because you're not just pressing space one time, you're scrolling through it, which is like 10 jumps at a time, right?
1:25:11 Speaker 01 You can just scroll?
1:25:12 Andrew Manganelli? You can just scroll to be your jump. So that's how people will make sure that their jump is always landing at the perfect point. This has a bunny hop mode, so like it makes it really,
1:25:20 Speaker 01 I know I wasn't bad at FPS.
1:25:22 Andrew Manganelli? What?
1:25:22 Speaker 01 I know I wasn't bad at FPSs. I just don't have the right mouse.
1:25:24 Andrew Manganelli? You just weren't bunny hopping correctly.
1:25:26 Speaker 01 Equipment.
1:25:27 Andrew Manganelli? Uh, it has a thing so you can't accidentally scroll the scroll wheel when you're clicking buttons, which can happen sometimes, because if you jump when you're trying to fire, you completely screw up recoil and everything. But yeah, there's not much to this. I will say, since this is a totally new technology in a thing that you press thousands of times in a life cycle very quickly, I would probably wait till like, people are using this for a while.
1:25:50 Speaker 01 We have haptic touch, like trackpads, like you mentioned. So there's a motor in there and then there's the sort of attachment to the moving piece.
1:25:58 David Imel? Theoretically, that's similar tech to the trackpad, like that should last a long time.
1:26:02 Andrew Manganelli? Think about how often you click on your trackpad versus how often you might click in like one game of Counter-Strike.
1:26:08 David Imel? Dude, that's fair, yeah.
1:26:10 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah, or Dota. Dota is literally all movement is based on clicking. It's probably
1:26:15 David Imel? You're right.
1:26:16 Andrew Manganelli? 500 to 1,000 clicks, like, a game.
1:26:18 David Imel? Probably more.
1:26:19 Andrew Manganelli? It might be more, where like you do that on this trackpad, like.
1:26:22 David Imel? Dota's like an hour-long, an hour-long game, and to move, you have to be like
1:26:27 Andrew Manganelli? You're just, yeah.
1:26:27 David Imel? Interesting.
1:26:28 Andrew Manganelli? My computer's going crazy with this patch right now, but, uh, yeah.
1:26:32 Speaker 03 I want to do a LAN party one day.
1:26:34 Andrew Manganelli? I want to try this.
1:26:34 Speaker 03 Actually play Dota and Valorant and all that stuff.
1:26:37 David Imel? Dude, I don't know how
1:26:37 Andrew Manganelli? I'm such a dog [BLEEP] at Valorant now, but.
1:26:39 David Imel? I don't know how anyone gets into Dota. It's like the most complicated game.
1:26:42 Speaker 03 I don't know, like, you guys say these games, I know nothing about them.
1:26:45 Andrew Manganelli? I'll play with you one day. We'll play. Let's play. Let's play Valorant.
1:26:50 Speaker 03 Let's play a let's play?
1:26:52 Andrew Manganelli? Let's play, let's play.
1:26:52 Speaker 03 Alright.
1:26:53 Andrew Manganelli? Studio stream.
1:26:55 David Imel? Yeah, I'm Guardian5, which is the second most here, and I have 4,800 hours in it.
1:27:02 Speaker 03 Well, Marquez just bought a, his rat mouse, so.
1:27:04 David Imel? Yeah.
1:27:05 Andrew Manganelli? You bought the mouse?
1:27:06 David Imel? No, I should. I really want to, though.
1:27:08 Andrew Manganelli? I want to just try it.
1:27:09 David Imel? If I had the rat set, I'd be better at Dota.
1:27:11 Andrew Manganelli? I bet you that mouse, how much does that mouse weigh? This is 60 grams?
1:27:14 David Imel? It can weigh as much as you want.
1:27:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's customizable.
1:27:17 Andrew Manganelli? It's, I remember the days of adding weights, where now everyone is like, I need to shave grams off of my mouse. If this thing is over 35 grams, I ain't touching it.
1:27:26 David Imel? It can weigh up to 157 grams?
1:27:30 Andrew Manganelli? That's like MS Master.
1:27:31 Speaker 03 Having a mouse with progressive overload is crazy.
1:27:33 Andrew Manganelli? It's like, it's weight training.
1:27:34 David Imel? It's modular, baby. So, um, the AI overview, which is almost definitely wrong, but it says that one game of Dota can be between 5,000 to 10,000 clicks.
1:27:45 Speaker 03 That sounds insane.
1:27:46 David Imel? Yeah.
1:27:46 Andrew Manganelli? That's why, to be fair, this is something where like, gaming really loves to do the, and we've seen this with frame rates and graphics cards and everything, is like, you need this to be better, but it's like, the point, top 0.5% might find like a huge difference in this. I do think this will be more interesting than like SnapTap, because Counter-Strafing is something that is really hard to do, but in games where just like a semi-automatic rifle might need to fire faster, you can do that so easily on a mouse like this. Uh, I need to go home and actually try it, but now I have two mice to try and no time to try them.
1:28:20 David Imel? Three.
1:28:20 Andrew Manganelli? So I'm just gonna start playing games at work.
1:28:22 David Imel? Yeah, it's James Bond, no time to try. Can I also make a quick announcement?
1:28:27 Andrew Manganelli? Sure.
1:28:29 David Imel? Streetlight Manifesto. This band.
1:28:31 Andrew Manganelli? All right, trivia.
1:28:33 David Imel? I've been waiting. Their album still didn't come out. Okay.
1:28:36 Speaker 01 That's the announcement?
1:28:38 David Imel? There's, okay, they announced a show in June.
1:28:42 Speaker 01 That's the announcement.
1:28:42 David Imel? But in December, they said that there wouldn't be another show until the album comes out, which was last June when the album was supposed to come out. So.
1:28:52 Speaker 01 So is the Tesla Roadster gonna come out?
1:28:53 Andrew Manganelli? Siri 2.0 or Streetlight Manifesto first?
1:28:58 David Imel? Ooh. That's a good question. Probably at the same time. Someone was joking on the Streetlight subreddit that the reason it hasn't come out was because their music is gonna be in GTA 6's, like, the radio station. So they're just delaying it alongside GTA 6. And I just had to tell you guys that. For my, like, two fans out there that care about this. I know there's at least two, though, because Alice told me that at South by Southwest, somebody said that her husband cared about Streetlight.
1:29:26 Speaker 02 She was like, she was like, "My husband's a huge fan of the podcast. Like, I'm so sorry. Like, I've never seen an episode. I don't really know anything about it." But I do know that someone on the podcast is like a fan of this really small band I'm really, really into. And I was like, "It's Streetlight Manifesto and David, isn't it?" She was like, "Yeah!"
1:29:44 David Imel? So, thank you. Now we can do trivia.
1:29:48 Speaker 02 Can I tell you guys a funny AI overview thing that happened to me a little bit ago?
1:29:51 David Imel? Yeah.
1:29:52 Speaker 02 I was trying to Google the English translation. I was trying to see if there was an English translation of this book that's like a collection of folklore that I really wanted to read. And so I searched "English" and then the name of the book. And it's like a collection of these stories. And AI overview mixed up the ISBN, which is like the, sort of, the book registration number with the number of stories in it. So it said, "The Mabinagion is a collection of 111250239255081113728100233801809012321154 medieval Welsh prose tales."
1:30:34 Speaker 02 I don't know what that number is, but I guarantee you there is not that much of anything in anywhere.
1:30:39 David Imel? That's almost as long as a Cimarrion.
1:30:41 Speaker 01 No, there's way more.
1:30:42 Andrew Manganelli? I had a huge fight with.
1:30:45 David Imel? AI overview?
1:30:45 Andrew Manganelli? Well, it was like Google Lens search and then the AI, like, trying to, I was trying to find a keycap that was on the. Mech Keyboard subreddit. And I said, what is this? And it like kept bringing me saying, oh, it's this and this model from this artist and it's on this website. I'm like, I can't find it on the website. Are you sure? Oh, just kidding. It was actually this one for so long. And then it kept going like,
1:31:07 David Imel? You're absolutely right.
1:31:07 Andrew Manganelli? It just kept saying, it's definitely from this. I said, what picture? Show me link. Just send me a link. Only give me the link. Don't say anything else. And it just never got it. And then I just replied on the subreddit and in like five minutes, he answered what it was from. And I was like, I hate it.
1:31:21 David Imel? Shy. You're freaking. It never humans is better than talking to a computer.
1:31:25 Speaker 02 Did it just send you this picture over and over again?
1:31:29 Andrew Manganelli? A key, a key on a baseball cap.
1:31:31 Speaker 02 Keycap, keycap.
1:31:33 Andrew Manganelli? Damn, that's a fire hat.
1:31:34 David Imel? Hold on. Well, you should buy that.
1:31:36 Andrew Manganelli? I should definitely buy this.
1:31:37 Speaker 02 How many Wikipedia pages are there called?
1:31:40 Andrew Manganelli? I hate photos so much.
1:31:41 Speaker 02 Apple TV. And I'm looking for Delta. You can go over.
1:31:45 David Imel? Delta Airlines.
1:31:50 Speaker 02 Do you know why it's called Delta Airlines?
1:31:52 David Imel? Because.
1:31:52 Speaker 02 Because it changes what place you're in.
1:31:55 David Imel? Yeah, that's.
1:31:55 Andrew Manganelli? Oh, damn.
1:31:56 Speaker 02 I made that up. That's not true.
1:31:57 Andrew Manganelli? I thought you were gonna say, cause.
1:31:58 Speaker 02 No, it almost is definitely because of.
1:32:00 Andrew Manganelli? Price is Right Airlines.
1:32:01 David Imel? Steve Delta.
1:32:02 Speaker 02 I was gonna say Delta Wings, but jetliners don't use Delta Wings. So.
1:32:05 David Imel? Delta Christ.
1:32:06 Speaker 02 I don't.
1:32:06 David Imel? I think it's actually just changing where you are. It's just changing.
1:32:09 Andrew Manganelli? I think he was actually on the Delta Tarian diet and just came back from it.
1:32:14 Speaker 02 He was eating only triangles. Allegedly it is named after the Mississippi Delta. Guys, how many Wikipedia pages, whoever gets the closest.
1:32:23 David Imel? It's a mouth of the river. I said six.
1:32:26 Speaker 02 Six is incorrect.
1:32:27 Andrew Manganelli? Okay. I said seven.
1:32:28 Speaker 02 That is also incorrect.
1:32:29 David Imel? I said seven.
1:32:30 Speaker 02 That is third incorrect, but Marquez was closest. There are three.
1:32:34 David Imel? Oh.
1:32:35 Speaker 02 There is.
1:32:36 David Imel? Kind of a trick question.
1:32:36 Speaker 02 There is the page for the Apple TV hardware device, the Apple TV streaming service, and the Apple TV app, which you can get on other.
1:32:46 David Imel? Cause these are dedicated pages.
1:32:47 Andrew Manganelli? I thought there'd be more than one for the hardware device.
1:32:50 Speaker 02 There are three things called.
1:32:51 David Imel? Twenty six, twenty twenty four. But there's not separate pages. There's just one page that details all of them.
1:32:55 Speaker 02 No, these are three separate Wikipedia pages.
1:32:56 David Imel? Well, I know those are. I'm talking about the hardware. Oh.
1:32:59 Speaker 02 Ah, yes. No, three separate.
1:33:00 Andrew Manganelli? I'll take the point though.
1:33:01 Speaker 02 Yeah. Apple TV Wikipedia pages.
1:33:02 David Imel? Marquez needs the point, so I'll give it to him.
1:33:04 Speaker 02 Not a single TV made by Apple. I'm now going to hand it off to Adam for a quick update on that score.
1:33:12 David Imel? Anna de Montana did that.
1:33:13 Speaker 03 Marquez with nineteen.
1:33:15 Speaker 01 You got a point?
1:33:16 Speaker 03 Andrew with nineteen. David weighing the lead, twenty-three. Yeah. Next question.
1:33:23 David Imel? What year?
1:33:23 Andrew Manganelli? Really got out of hand.
1:33:25 Speaker 03 Did Apple release Apple Maps?
1:33:27 Speaker 01 What year?
1:33:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, closest without going over.
1:33:30 Andrew Manganelli? Too high?
1:33:30 Speaker 03 Yep. Yeah.
1:33:34 Speaker 01 I think it's this, but let me think. So Dub Dub, uh, I don't know, probably it was farther. Without going too high?
1:33:45 Speaker 03 Indeed. Without going too high.
1:33:48 Speaker 01 Dang.
1:33:51 Speaker 01 I'll try it.
1:33:53 Speaker 03 And flip 'em and read. What do you guys got?
1:33:55 David Imel? Oh, Jesus. Oh, wow.
1:33:58 Speaker 03 I'm just gonna say all of you are wrong, but tell me what your answers are.
1:34:01 David Imel? Uh, I wrote twenty seventeen.
1:34:03 Speaker 03 Nope.
1:34:05 David Imel? I wrote twenty fourteen.
1:34:06 Speaker 03 Nope.
1:34:07 Andrew Manganelli? Twenty-ten.
1:34:07 Speaker 03 Nope. But Andrew gets the point.
1:34:09 Andrew Manganelli? Cause I didn't go over, baby. Let's go.
1:34:11 David Imel? It was twenty-twelve.
1:34:12 Andrew Manganelli? Oh. That's my first point, maybe in twenty-twenty-six.
1:34:18 David Imel? No.
1:34:19 Andrew Manganelli? I went on a blazing lead to start and I have not had anything.
1:34:24 David Imel? Guns blazing.
1:34:25 Andrew Manganelli? Essentially the New Jersey Devils.
1:34:28 Speaker 03 We're gonna have to do it.
1:34:28 Andrew Manganelli? Blow it out of the water and then just die.
1:34:31 David Imel? Oklahoma City Thunder?
1:34:32 Andrew Manganelli? Yeah.
1:34:33 David Imel? Sacramento City Kings?
1:34:37 David Imel? That's cause I grew up there.
1:34:37 Andrew Manganelli? That's a good.
1:34:38 David Imel? I went to a lot of games. Kobe, no Kobe wasn't. Sorry, he was on the.
1:34:43 Andrew Manganelli? Oh, that's Bam.
1:34:45 David Imel? Bam? No, it was, um, no, the old guys.
1:34:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, you got this.
1:34:48 David Imel? When the Kings were good.
1:34:49 Speaker 02 Uh-huh. Hit it.
1:34:51 David Imel? Paige? No, he was not.
1:34:52 Andrew Manganelli? Bibby? Are you a Bibby fan?
1:34:54 David Imel? Bibby? I have a, I had a bobblehead of Bibby, of Mike Bibby. Yeah.
1:34:57 Speaker 02 You had the Bibby bobblehead?
1:34:59 David Imel? Bibby bobblehead. Uh, Kevin Durant?
1:35:02 Speaker 03 No.
1:35:02 David Imel? No.
1:35:03 Andrew Manganelli? Peja Stojakovic. Does that ring a bell?
1:35:05 Speaker 03 Stojakovic.
1:35:05 David Imel? Doug Christie.
1:35:06 Speaker 03 Doug Christie?
1:35:07 Andrew Manganelli? Okay.
1:35:08 David Imel? Yeah, Doug Christie, Mike Bibby.
1:35:11 Speaker 03 Brad.
1:35:11 David Imel? Lander.
1:35:12 Speaker 03 Brad.
1:35:12 Andrew Manganelli? No.
1:35:15 David Imel? Brad Miller.
1:35:17 Speaker 01 I'm glad.
1:35:18 David Imel? My grandpa was really into Kings basketball, so we went to a lot of games, actually.
1:35:21 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:35:21 Andrew Manganelli? I was waiting for you to explain the film in basketball terms, and you never did.
1:35:26 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
1:35:26 David Imel? Oh, the film? Oh, yeah. Somebody posted this photo. Well, okay. Real quick. I gotta give you guys. Okay, I gotta tell you about this. I'll explain. I'm sorry. It's not about streetlight, though. It's about film. Okay, so Kodak. You know Kodak?
1:35:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, I saw it.
1:35:46 David Imel? I know Kodak. But they went out. They went bankrupt a long time ago.
1:35:50 Speaker 01 I believe you.
1:35:51 David Imel? Yeah, they went bankrupt. Kodak was basically, was basically like, was like IBM. They were like, one of the biggest companies in the world for quite a long time. Then they went bankrupt because they were stupid. And then-
1:36:02 Speaker 01 Because nobody shoots film anymore.
1:36:03 David Imel? That's not true. I do. Anyway, they had to split into two separate companies as part of the bankruptcy. And they became Kodak and Kodak Alaris. Kodak Eastman and Kodak Alaris. Okay? The way that the deal worked was that Kodak Eastman would produce the film, and they would sell the film to Kodak Alaris, which would then sell, sell the film to consumers. They'd package it all to consumers.
1:36:29 Speaker 01 Really strange bankruptcy.
1:36:31 Andrew Manganelli? I don't get that.
1:36:31 David Imel? Yeah, I don't really get it.
1:36:32 Andrew Manganelli? Hey, we don't have any money, so let's just be the same company, but two companies.
1:36:35 David Imel? Yeah.
1:36:36 Andrew Manganelli? Same thing.
1:36:36 David Imel? I don't-
1:36:36 Andrew Manganelli? More complicated.
1:36:37 David Imel? There's details, and there's business stuff.
1:36:39 Speaker 01 Tax reasons.
1:36:40 David Imel? Tax reasons. I don't know. Anyway, fairly recently, Kodak Eastman, and I'm not sure why this started happening, became able to sell film itself again. So now, Kodak Alaris still exists, who they are still selling film to. But they are now, they have new packaging and new names for like, a lot of the film that they're selling. So, there's like Ultramax, and like, there's Portra, and all this stuff. Portra is the Kodak Eastman, like, name for the film, but, Alaris name for the film, but the Kodak Eastman version is now called, like, Kodak Color, or something like that.
1:37:15 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:37:16 David Imel? So, anyway. Over the last, like, six months, they've been re-releasing all these films, but with like, different packaging and different names. Generally cheaper, because they don't have to do, like, they don't have to sell it. The, Eastman doesn't have to, no. Alaris doesn't have to make a margin. Anyway, on Instagram, they, they posted, "We just released this new film," and someone said, "Can you explain this to me in basketball terms?"
1:37:39 Speaker 01 Hmm.
1:37:40 David Imel? Okay.
1:37:42 David Imel? David, so I think my basketball thing would be like if Mike Bibby and Kobe Bryant, is that bad to say?
1:37:55 Speaker 01 No, it's a basketball player.
1:37:56 David Imel? Kobe Bryant, okay. My Bibby and Kobe Bryant were like best friends, were like the same person and then they split into two people. This is a bad analogy. I can't make the basketball analogy. I don't know enough about basketball to make the basketball analogy.
1:38:07 Andrew Manganelli? I think that's a hard thing to do.
1:38:08 David Imel? I could do a tech analogy.
1:38:09 Andrew Manganelli? People can't split in half.
1:38:12 Speaker 01 If you can make a tech analogy, I will try to make it a basketball.
1:38:15 David Imel? Okay, okay, good. This is like telephone.
1:38:16 Andrew Manganelli? He just did.
1:38:17 David Imel? I like this.
1:38:18 Andrew Manganelli? Some company's splitting too. Basketball it.
1:38:21 David Imel? But no. Okay.
1:38:22 Speaker 01 But what's a?
1:38:23 David Imel? Let me do a tech analogy.
1:38:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:38:24 David Imel? Okay. Imagine if Android had to spin off from Google, right? And which we've, or Chrome, let's say Chrome, okay? And Google still made Chrome, but they couldn't distribute it. And Chrome, the company, was the one that like actually packaged it and distributed it to people. And then later on, for some reason, Google was once again able to make Chrome. And because Chromium is open sourced, because they still have the like, they still have the rights to do it.
1:38:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:38:57 David Imel? They released it under Google Chrome as opposed to just Chrome. You know?
1:39:03 Speaker 01 I got, I got a version.
1:39:04 David Imel? Okay, basketball.
1:39:05 Speaker 01 It would be like if Kevin Durant played for a Seattle team called the Supersonics. And then at some point, they went away and they split. Kevin Durant went to another team and the Supersonics went away and became Oklahoma City Thunder. And then later, the NBA was like, we should make an expansion team in Seattle. And Kevin Durant went back to the Seattle team.
1:39:29 David Imel? Oh.
1:39:30 Andrew Manganelli? I like it.
1:39:31 David Imel? Okay. We should clip that and comment on that guy's comment.
1:39:35 Speaker 01 Let's see if that works. That might not be ever.
1:39:36 David Imel? That was like a game of telephone.
1:39:37 Andrew Manganelli? It might happen, it might not. All that, we've learned a lot on the pod.
1:39:41 David Imel? That's some human trivia. Yes, explanations.
1:39:43 Speaker 01 Yeah. Hopefully some of that is accurate. Hey, thanks for watching.
1:39:47 Speaker 01 See you in April.
1:39:48 David Imel? Wait, really?
1:39:49 Speaker 01 It's been a really long March.
1:39:50 David Imel? I know.
1:39:50 Andrew Manganelli? It's been a long March.
1:39:52 David Imel? April 1st? Wait, is it gonna be April 1st when we record?
1:39:54 Speaker 01 Next time we record, it'll be April officially.
1:39:57 David Imel? April 1st.
1:39:57 Speaker 01 So, thanks for tuning in, thanks for subscribing, thanks for hyping. I think we finally killed that feature. Either way, catch you guys next week. Peace.
1:40:05 Andrew Manganelli? Wayfarer was produced by Adam Alina and Ellis Rovin. We're a partner with Vox Media Podcast Network and our charter music was created by Vainsoil.
1:40:09 David Imel? Bingo.
1:40:10 Andrew Manganelli? It's a quick one.
1:40:19 Speaker 01 In hindsight, if I was a teacher and I gave this assignment, this would probably be like a lesson in like just how big the solar system is. But I was a very literal, I was like, I have to make everything the right size.
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