Dita Von Teese: “You don’t look like a Playboy girl!” How to value your unique differences

Do you find stripping and nudity empowering or degrading? Burlesque performer Dita Von Teese says feminism is about respecting each other’s choices, even if they wouldn’t be your own. In this chat with Fearne, Dita charts her life from working in strip clubs in the 90s, to performing in sold out burlesque shows now. Painfully shy as a kid, Dita explains how turning herself into a femme fatale helped her feel confident and powerful in her own skin. Fearne and Dita talk about the joy of getting older and understanding more about how to handle your sexuality, and Dita reveals how she makes herself feel more sensual if she’s not particularly in the mood... There’s also advice about how to own your unique look and characteristics, and be more assertive in using your voice. Dita’s new show, Diamonds and Dust, is on at London’s Emerald Theatre now! Dita is also returning to the UK’s grand stages in early 2026 with her most enchanting show to date: Nocturnelle. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Munroe Bergdorf https://pod.fo/e/2dda46 Florence Given https://pod.fo/e/27d879 Zandra Rhodes https://pod.fo/e/254d35 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To market, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that brings out your sparkly inner confidence. Today, I'm chatting to Dieter Von Tees.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  When I was, you know, in my twenties trying to figure it out, I certainly could have pandered and I, there was definitely points where I was trying to, you know, be in Playboy magazine and they're like, "You do not look like a Playboy girl." And I was like, "So, that's why you should have me there." You know, I'm just gonna stick with what I am. I always thought there was a value in being a little bit different and everyone's gonna have a different way of looking at it. So what makes one person feel empowered may make another person feel degraded. And I think the ultimate feminism is respecting each other's choices, even if it's not for you.

• 1:09Fearne Cotton?

  I've been in quite a sparkly mood recently. I mean, obviously, it's not all ups, there's ups and downs, but I had a very good up weekend when I went to a birthday party in Ibiza. And as you might well know, I love a sequin. I wore a little sparkly blue dress for that, which I loved so much. I've now bought it in purple, haven't I? Because I felt bloody good in it. And it really leads on to the theme of this podcast this week because I believe there is great power in clothes and just your general exterior and how you want to dress it, making you feel bloody good. And that weekend, this party I went to, you know, I'm not a massive partyer. I haven't been to that many parties in the last decade, but I really felt the need to go for it and it was really liberating. And I put this dress on.

• 1:54Fearne Cotton?

  And I felt fucking fantastic in that dress and I danced around all night long, spinning around, almost like a sort of kid, um, just having the best time. It was really, really euphoric. So the lessons I learned from that weekend, go out dancing more, because as adults, so boring, you never go dancing, do you? It's like, when do you go dancing? At a wedding. Apart from that, like, I don't go dancing. When you're a kid, you're always dancing about. Go dancing more. Wear clothes that make you feel bloody brilliant. And I don't know what the third bit of advice is from that weekend. Like, don't drink too much tequila because I felt like shit the next day. Um, but it was honestly so fun and sequins and sparkle very much were at play. So let's talk about our incredibly gorgeous, sparkly guest this week.

• 2:38Fearne Cotton?

  Dieter Von Teese has been the absolute queen of burlesque for decades. And now she's bringing her signature glamour to the West End of London. She's produced and is performing in Diamonds and Dust. Guys, we're talking high-stake stunts in rhinestone cowboy boots, which is very me at the moment. Topics that we chat about, explaining how she got onto the scene in the first place, because it's quite a niche scene, getting more comfortable with being assertive, which is, I think, something many of us struggle with. And also, we, we have a big chat about nudity and stripping and sexiness and how to feel sexy, which I think some of us, I mean, I certainly have periods of my life, sort of let slide. That's a really interesting one.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 3:52Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 3:53Speaker 04

  And Maisie Adams.

• 3:54Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 3:57Speaker 04

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 3:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 3:59Speaker 04

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 4:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 4:13Fearne Cotton?

  Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 4:19Speaker 04

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 4:25Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, this great fun chat with Dieter is coming up so shortly, but first a quick reminder. The Happy Place Festival in Gunnersbury Park, London is this weekend. Guys, it's this weekend. Oh my goodness. Have you got weekend plans? If not, there's a few tickets left. Go run and get one and come and get a ticket and come along to the festival. Just go to happyplacefestival.com. Bring a load of mates or come on your own. There are always loads of solo festival goers and everyone is so bloody friendly. You'll make some new great mates. You can book into workshops. There's arts and crafts. There's yoga. There's breathwork. There's soundbars. Or grab yourself some delicious food and get a coffee and chill out listening to talks from brilliant people. Some of whom you've probably heard on this podcast.

• 5:07Fearne Cotton?

  If you want a really gorgeous day or whole weekend out where you know you're going to feel better than when you arrived, this is the festival for you. Get your tickets at happyplacefestival.com. All right, here we go. This is the show.

• 5:42Fearne Cotton?

  Hi, Dieter.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 5:43Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so happy to meet you.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  It's nice to meet you too.

• 5:46Fearne Cotton?

  Long time fan, so this is like a wonderful opportunity for me to sit and quiz you today about everything. I wish I had a martini glass or something for you to sit in rather than a shit wooden chair.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  I'm actually quite comfortable in this.

• 5:59Fearne Cotton?

  Well, look, welcome back to the UK. You've spent actually quite a lot of time here this year, no?

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I was here in January.

• 6:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Looking at the space for our new theatre. But yeah, I've come here a lot over the years. It kind of comes in waves and I'll be here just about every month the rest of the year.

• 6:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  And next.

• 6:16Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you've got your show kicking off in the West End. Tell us about that.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  It's called Diamonds in Dust. It's a plot-driven spectacle in the West End and... Um. It's really different than any other show that I have. I've I basically have three shows running simultaneously and they're all very different, but this is about a historical figure named Kitty Leroy, who is a woman who lived in Deadwood City and had a really like fast and crazy life. And so it's about her life, but told within, you know, the fantasy and spectacle of burlesque. And there's so there's cirque, there's fire, there's stunts, there's, you know, a little bit of everything.

• 6:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I wanna see this. Do you feel like I I guess I love going to see live music and I love going to theatre and watching plays. I sort of don't do it as much as I should or want to, but I think because we live in such a digital world now, it feels like people want a live experience more than ever. They wanna feel something and like see art, maybe. Like they they need that more than ever.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  I feel that. I feel that, you know, I have my Las Vegas show. My residency has been running for the past year and a half. And I feel like I'm fortunate that people are still coming out to shows despite what's happening in the world. It seems like people want a little bit of escapism and beauty and glamour and spectacle.

• 7:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we need it. We need it. I think when you, you know, if it's like collective tough times or you're going through a tough time, having that escapism, isn't it? Just completely switching off, even if it's for like a couple of hours and just letting your brain flatline and just like watching it and imbibing it is so important.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Better than just scrolling. It's like because you can't really escape anything when you're scrolling. So I don't know. For me, it's like seeing something beautiful, art, nature, you know, things that are beautiful that remind you of why you're, you know, the things that give you pleasure.

• 8:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course. I mean, art is like a hotline to that, isn't it? I find if I even just walk around an art gallery, I love going to galleries at weekends and I love paintings. So just to sort of see it is that it's almost like an inexplicable connection to something, something bigger.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:21Fearne Cotton?

  I love that feeling. I love that feeling. So you are the queen of burlesque. We all know you as that. And you've really brought it to the forefront because there's obviously been periods throughout history where it's been really prominent and it's been a, you know, mainstream way of entertaining. But then there's been dips where it's kind of been wiped out and we haven't seen it as much. You've really championed it from day dot. And this is something that you were interested in from. Almost childhood.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, almost.

• 8:49Fearne Cotton?

  What do you say drew you to it? Because it's not the everyday that a young kid would be drawn to, whether it's that kind of old school glamour and the art of burlesque. What do you think captured your imagination initially?

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Well, I think the first thing is when I I grew up in a very small town with two thousand people in Michigan. And my mother liked, she collected antiques and she loved old movies. So that was like the imprint, the first imprint on me was watching these old movies and musicals with, you know, Betty Grable and Hedy Lamarr and Rita Hayworth. And it just like, I was so enthralled by that, especially Technicolor, because it was like cartoon. You know, if you ever watched a real like forty's era Technicolor movie, it's very like otherworldly. Um, so that really had an imprint on me early on and it kind of always stayed with me. And I was very like, when I grow up, I'm going to wear red lipstick and I'm going to wear my hair in curls. And so, yeah, here we are.

• 9:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  A long time later. So that was the first thing. And then when I was a teenager, I worked in a lingerie store. And I got very interested in like the history of lingerie, like pinup era lingerie. And then when I first got out of high school, I actually like got brought to a rave in nineteen ninety. I just graduated and suddenly somebody was like, we're going to go to this party. And I was like, my eyes were open to this crazy world of like club kids and people having a good time and dressing up. And that kind of sparked another thing in me. And um, and yeah, I started being a, I was a performance artist and dancer in that rave scene. And then I wandered into a strip club.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  And I was, and I was kind of like already dressing in vintage. And I walked into a strip club and I was like, this is kind of cool, but there, and there's nobody like doing like vintage style, striptease in here. And so that's kind of what started me on that. And then I started the first ever pinup website on the world wide web.

• 10:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Um, so it was just kind of like all of these things. I became like a famous fetish model, like a the modern Betty Page. It was like all these things happening kind of all in the same like first, like early nineties.

• 11:00Fearne Cotton?

  So I'm imagining when you first started to, whether it's, you know, the combination of like getting into that whole scene and understanding the history of lingerie and the power of, I guess it's finding your style and finding that thing that empowers you and makes you feel good and. I guess when it's so visual, it's kind of a uniform and maybe even obviously it makes you feel amazing, but also in ways like a suit of armor, like it is your sort of protection in a way.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, a big thing for me is like, you know, I'm a dishwater blonde, very kind of like, people have, some people have, some people have seen me in my Halloween costume. I wear a blonde wig and I like take all of the red nail polish and lipstick off and.

• 11:42Fearne Cotton?

  And you're unrecognizable.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  I'm unrecognizable.

• 11:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I look like a maybe like kind of like Paris Hilton-y or like, yeah. Anyway, um, it's a fun, like, it's a weird psychological experiment for me.

• 11:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Everything changes. Um, but yeah, I, I feel like I was very shy, like painfully shy when I was a kid, like I think sent me to speech class and I'm like, I can talk, I'm just don't know what to say.

• 12:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  So, um, I was always very shy and it was kind of like turning, you know, turning myself into like a femme fatale was like a way of finding my confidence and feeling like powerful.

• 12:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  So it started off like as that. And I think of course it's evolved and I have found my like voice in other ways at, you know, growing older helps, you know, or being thrown into things where you're like, I'm going to challenge myself, which when you're, you know, nineteen, it's can be a little bit, it was harder for me.

• 12:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  It's not harder for everybody, but it was hard for me to find myself.

• 12:41Fearne Cotton?

  Why do you think that was? Sort of looking back on childhood?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Well, I look back, I guess I think about like, when I look at how things are now, I feel like I didn't have a lot of like role models, like female role models that could show me or tell me how I could say no or stand up for myself. You know, it was different. And it's like, I'm fifty two. It's like, it was just different. I feel very like, I could see like how I felt like I couldn't say no to people or I couldn't like how to assert myself with men who were coming on to me in the wrong way and just being like, oh, I just have to like flirt back with, you know, like I have to be this way because otherwise they're gonna, people will say that I'm a bitch or whatever.

• 13:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  So I think like, I, I like seeing the way that women are getting like better messages about how to like have, you know, control over their lives. Like, you know, it's, it's interesting. It's just feels interesting to live. And I was, you know, I was listening to Cher's autobiography. It's so good.

• 13:41Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I need to read this. Yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  It's so great, especially like her reading it. It's interesting like her path and like how different it was for her when she was coming up and how she was treated by men in power positions. It's really interesting to hear that. So I think about that a lot, like my generation, I think about her generation and excited for like younger generations who have access to more information.

• 14:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I feel the same. I think, you know, me and my friends talk about this all the time. And again, a lot of our listeners who are sort of, you know, predominantly women, who are in that era of life going, oh, my God, nobody taught me how to advocate for myself or say no or set a boundary. And many of us have ended up kind of people pleasing and then feeling fucking miserable or resentful. And I think you're so right, whether it was in a familial sense or just looking culturally at the landscape at that time, nobody was really telling us how to do it. And you have to be the good girl and make sure that you act in a certain way so you don't piss anyone off.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and even now, like in co-directing this show, it's like I still catch myself feeling like a bitch, like when I say, I don't like that or this isn't right. And, you know, like when I have to correct something in it, I don't know how other people feel, but it makes me feel like people are like rolling their eyes or saying like, God, this bitch, you know. But I have very like specific things that I want. And I think like, I bet, I bet, I probably, maybe a lot of it is how I feel because that imprint is on me.

• 15:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think it's, and it does, I know, you know, men and women will feel like this, but I think so many women feel like that, especially in the work arena. They can't assert themselves and say, I don't like it done that way. Or, you know, can we ditch that altogether? You know, you feel, I feel like it all the time, deeply uncomfortable because we have this inherent thing we want to be liked and we don't want people bitching about us or whatever. But I think you're so right, it's often we're the ones projecting that.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it may or may not be.

• 15:45Fearne Cotton?

  It may or may not be.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 15:47Fearne Cotton?

  I know, it's so odd. Do you think you're, you are just getting better at that through experience and giving it a go?

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how you feel, but I feel like with every decade, I get a little bit more assertive or a little caring less, you know, like even. When I look back at myself as a performer in her like twenties or thirties and I think about like I was there were things I would I was more worried about like what my body looked like then than I do now, you know, like it's crazy, like, you know, more regimented, like, oh, I can't only eat this. And that was like another thing what people would put on me, like, but not so, you know, and I don't feel that way anymore, but I feel like a lot of it is. You know, I don't know, I don't know, I have a lot of like elderly lady friends. I like being friends with the ladies who are eighty, ninety and a hundred years old.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  And I love talking to them and you do get the feeling like, oh, with actually like real aging, there's something that go, you know, there's an evolution. Right, that happens where you care a little bit less and you say things like that maybe you wouldn't have said when you were younger.

• 16:54Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah. Me and my cousin would always talk about my my nan, who's no longer with us, but she lived till she was like ninety three. And she would just say the thing.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:03Fearne Cotton?

  And we'd go, oh, like nan.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Sometimes you're like, oh, god.

• 17:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like, either, you know. But actually, like, I want to be more like that.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:09Fearne Cotton?

  I just want to care less. I think you're right. It's just a natural evolution that you care less.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  It's kind of like the way kids are, like, they're like, just like, say what they think and then like you get to a certain

• 17:18Fearne Cotton?

  Humbling.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  phase of life and you're like, yeah.

• 17:21Fearne Cotton?

  I know, we all get so conditioned and I think it is so tricky when you're growing up and you wanna keep the peace and make sure that everybody is happy around you and then you end up shrinking yourself, actually, and feeling like you're not quite sure who you are. And then, I don't know, I I feel like when I turned forty a few years back, I started to really feel that shift and I'm by no means at like where my nan was, but you know, I wanna get. Even bolder in saying how I feel and never with meanness or to cause anyone harm, but to be hon- about being honest, I guess, isn't it? Just saying the thing you need to say. And I think actually, the cost of not doing that is too great.

• 18:06Fearne Cotton?

  And maybe you learn that the hard way, I certainly did. Do you feel like that?

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, in all types of relationships mostly too, I think of like friend relationships, romantic relationships, it's like that's the only way, that's the only way to be, really.

• 18:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it is. And sometimes you, you know, you will piss people off or lose people, but you know, it's probably still better than suppressing what you're really thinking and feeling. I mean, I guess, to a degree, you must have had this inbuilt sense of who you were at quite a young age, to be doing things differently, to want to wear vintage clothes, and I'm sure there weren't many other kids wanting to dress like that, knowing that you were standing out, you know, amongst the other children or the other teenagers or young people. How did you do, sort of deal with that?

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't know. I mean, I feel like, I don't know, I kind of just did what I want. I didn't, I, I think more about like when I was a teenager and I started really like dressing in vintage and performing burlesque shows and all that kind of stuff. And I, I guess I always just felt like this is like my world and I'm going to always try to remember that like people are not always gonna like what you do or understand, you know, and I'm kind of, I mean, you, if people still occasionally ask me why I'm dressed like this or where I'm going or what I'm doing, what

• 19:29Speaker 02

  living is the occasion, try it, you know. But yeah, I don't know, I guess I just felt like I always liked the idea of being different and standing out a little bit, you know. I never minded it. And I thought like, if somebody's making fun of me, it's fine, because guess what? I might be making fun of you for what you're wearing. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes I can't wrap my head around like, when people wear all this like sports stuff and I'm sort of like, oh, it's so weird to wear somebody else's advertising. It's weird to me. So I try, think of that or how I think it's weird somebody's walking around wearing advertisements. Um, or whatever, you know, whatever it is, like. I saw a pair of shoes that I was like, oh, this is the next level of Crocs.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  I get it, Crocs are gardening shoes. I understand them as gardening shoes, but um there's now like this. I saw these shoes made out of dirt and leaves and they're like a big gigantic clawed copper shoe.

• 20:24Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  And I was like, wow, you know, like, so I always kind of just go for all the people that go, wow, what is she wearing or whatever? You know, I think like, wow, what are you wearing? That's so weird. So I kind of just keep it at that. Like, they don't get me. I don't get them. It's totally fine.

• 20:41Fearne Cotton?

  Absolutely. Talking about how your clothes make you feel a moment ago. And how I guess that has led you to feeling then more confident to assert yourself or do what you want to do. Do you still feel that way? If you're having a day where you wake up and you just feel like shit, you just feel flat or you feel like you just want to be quiet and on your own. Does your whole look kind of help bring that out of you that confidence?

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I know how to be comfortable. Like, I run around in like a circle skirt and a little sweater and ballet flats and I'm like very comfortable or, you know, I have, I have my like, I have like a cashmere robe I love to put on when I get home. I'm just like, oh, thank you, cashmere robe. You know, it's got like moth holes and stuff. I don't care. It's like my, my blanket.

• 21:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah, I think sometimes people, it's like the most common asked question I get in every interview is like, do you ever just sit around wearing jeans and sweatpants? And I'm like, I mean, it's not like I'm just sitting around wearing a feather robe and eating bonbons. Like, I know how to be comfortable. There's like, you know, I, I, but I still have like a coat. I always think you never know who you're gonna run into.

• 21:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, absolutely. My mom is always worried about if she has to get carted off in an ambulance, does she look fantastic kind of thing? Yeah. Like, how will they cart her out?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Does my underwear matching, you know?

• 21:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals. No kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 22:33Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 22:35Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 22:40Speaker 06

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 22:48Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 22:55Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 22:58Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 23:00Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 23:03Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 23:10Fearne Cotton?

  And then when we look at the era where you first discovered burlesque, or was it stripping that came first and then you?

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, the stripping came... Well, it was kind of like I was first the pinup model. And so I was looking, I was collecting all these vintage men's magazines from the 30s and 40s. And in those magazines, a lot of the girls that posed for those pictures, racy pictures, which were not very racy at all, they were burlesque dancers. And I was like, oh, burlesque, interesting. And I'd seen the movie with Natalie Wood called Gypsy, which there's a musical about it, too. And I just like, so there was like, it was kind of murky, like trying to understand. And I'd watch old movies and there'd be like, you know, young Lucille Ball played a burlesque dancer in this movie. Or there's a movie with Barbara Stanwyck called Ball of Fire. And so I kind of like... Noticed like I started like trying to dig deeper on the history of burlesque.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  And I kind of, it was all kind of happening at the same time. And I feel like the first time I ever really did like a proper burlesque show was actually in a fetish club. In Los Angeles and I bought my first pair of feather fans and I was, you know, I just had pictures to look at. I didn't really have any video to base what I was doing on until like a few years later when somebody gave me a VHS tape. With a little like compilation of of real burlesque performers. And by then I was kind of glad I had to make it up in my head because I created my own style. Yeah. You know, of dancing and fan dancing and all of that because I just had to imagine. Yeah, exactly. You weren't emulating anything. And I mean, how did you feel that first show? Did you feel confident in your skin, confident?

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt, I always felt, I don't know why, but I never felt weird about nudity at all. And I don't know if that's like. From my like taking ballet classes all my life and being like used to in being in the mirror and like noticing body shape and wearing tights and leotards and. I don't really think I had like a bad, and I didn't feel like ashamed of my body. You know, I'm not sure where that comes from. Yeah. But and maybe it was also because, you know, when I was nineteen, I was also in a strip club. I was in the rave scene. It was like. We were, you know, wearing crazy outfits, running around in fishnet tights and hot pants. And, you know, I just think.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  It was, I was around all of this like drag queen and club kid culture and then in a strip club. And I feel like I was just kind of around people who were liberated. And also like the strip club that I worked in was not like. There was no nudity. It was like a bikini club. Yeah. There was like, that was a big thing in America in the like eighties and nineties were these like bikini clubs where you could, you know, girls danced around in their lingerie or bikinis. There was a lot of rules, so. Um, I don't know.

• 25:48Fearne Cotton?

  So you always felt safe?

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Kind of like, yeah, I felt, I felt. But also, sometimes I look back and I go, that does not seem like it was safe. Like when I was headlining strip clubs and driving through Texas with my girlfriend and staying in like motels and walking around with like cash, like dollar bills and, and trash bags. It's like crazy. Sometimes I go, that was crazy.

• 26:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I know. I think we, I think most of us look back at that era and go, God, I probably shouldn't have been walking around Camden at four in the morning on my own drunk. That seems like a terrible idea now. Do you know what I mean? It's wild. But I think stripping is such an interesting topic because everybody is quite a punchy subject to talk about. And some people see it as empowering, you know, artistic, beautiful. Others will see it as degrading, sleazy, whatever. You know, obviously your take on it is going to be positive because you've dedicated a part of your life to it and it's evolved into something very beautiful. But how, how do you feel about the whole topic?

• 26:47Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, having like started it in a certain era and it being one thing, like when I first started, for sure. Like I was a Playboy model. I was like a fetish queen and like, I had a lot of male followers, you know? And then when I wrote my first book, um, it really shifted because I wrote a lot about why I love glamour and what it makes me feel for my confidence. And, you know, so my first book really like flicked the switch on women following me. And certainly I think, I think, um, I mean, I think about striptease, you know, I, I know that, you know, my understanding of striptease and its history, especially in America, the burlesque show, which was like

• 27:30Speaker 02

  American burlesque, like that idea of deliberately stripping to music with a band or, you know, it on a big stage is like, it's an American thing.

• 27:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  And, um, I, you know, like, I think about Gypsy Rose Lee and Lily St. Seer and Sally Rand and all these like ladies. And so I have a different connotation for it or

• 27:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  different context and knowing the history, but I can understand if somebody doesn't really know that there's a history behind it. And I, I respect pole dancers and sex workers and, and you know, like all of this as much as like anything like I, cause I've, I've been in that scene. But I do think it's like, it's like art, you know, like you can look at a painting on the wall and be like, it's ugly, it's beautiful. And everyone's gonna have a different way of looking at it. So what makes one person feel empowered may make another person feel degraded. And I think the ultimate feminism is respecting each other's choices, even if it's not for you.

• 28:26Fearne Cotton?

  Hey, hey.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  And also like I've watched, like I've listened to people talk about what I do. And it's like, if you haven't been to the show, sit down and shut up because like it's eighty-five percent female in the audience. And the dudes that are in the audience, they're either gay.

• 28:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Or they're like, what am I at? They're, they're there with their wife was like, she wanted tickets, you know? I don't understand why she wants to, you know, why does she wanna come to a show like this? And then I have a stack of letters from men who are like, listen, I didn't know what this was. And we got there and the curtains opened and for some reason, my girlfriend is just like tearing up about like this space you've created. That feels like, you know, I've always had a cast of diverse performers and just as many men in the show as women. So I think like, if you don't know, understand, if you just like hear about like, oh, she does this striptease thing. And you haven't seen it or been in that room, then you can't really comment on it.

• 29:20Fearne Cotton?

  I agree. And I think, you know, that's exactly what you've done. You have created this space and this world where women want a bit of that. I think most women and certainly women, you know, sort of our age, want to feel good in their skin. Confident, they wanna feel sexy as well. And I think that's a really interesting one is sexiness. Because I guess like the drudgery of mundanity of everyday life that we can all slip into of, you know, going to work or whatever, going to the supermarket. You don't necessarily feel that sexy. I mean, I'm generalizing, but I think many women just feel like that maybe slightly wanes as you get older. You might not feel as sexy as you did in your twenties or whatever. It's, it's a real tricky one.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Or you feel more sexy, but now you don't, now you know how to handle your sexuality than when you were young.

• 30:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  I mean, I think about that. I just think a lot about. You know, having, you know, when I first started touring with the show and, you know, giving a platform to burlesque performers that I think are amazing and really like, you know, not, not actually like going, oh, I'm gonna make my show diverse because that's cool. It kind of happened naturally because I found that the people I was attracted to were doing things that were different than me. And I'm like, oh, this number is gonna kill. But I think like, as I have been advancing in life and still doing this, like, I never would have believed I'd still be doing this. But it's important for me. Like, I see role models of like, beauty and sensuality of women that are older than me. And it means something to me. So it was like, a point where I was kind of like, I gotta walk the

• 30:54Speaker 02

  walk. Like, if I'm going to say, if I'm gonna believe that we should all be, if I want to see other women be sexy and embrace their sensuality so they can inspire me, I have to do the same. I have to be willing to do the same thing. And it's not always like that easy, you know? But, you know, I think that it's important. It's important for me. And I think, you know, it's one of the reasons people keep coming to the show.

• 31:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, completely. I mean, what do you do if you're not feeling sexy? What makes you feel confident? What makes you feel good? What gets you on that stage?

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Well, a lot of it is like, controlling the circumstances, right? Like, you know, I am creating a show where it's like, I'm wearing what I feel good in, I'm wearing the makeup that I like, I'm got, the lights are all, you know, built for glamour. And you can kind of, you can do the same thing around your house, too.

• 31:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  The only problem is, as soon as you leave, you're sort of like, oh, boy, I thought I looked good, and now I'm in this lighting. But, you know, I love like, all these, like, having all these like colorful lights that I can put dim or high, or, you know, lamps everywhere, like thinking of ways to make your like, space feel like sexy. You know, I push a button, it's like, oh, sexy lighting.

• 31:58Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, you've got sexy lighting in the house.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, all those like, lights you can program with colors.

• 32:02Fearne Cotton?

  I've got a lot of lamps, but I don't have a sexy light. I need to do that.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Well, you have to put like, these smart light bulbs in your lamp. So you can be like, I'm gonna put some like, pink light. You do lavender, I'm gonna put some blue light, ooh, I'm gonna put some red light. So I have those everywhere so that I can like, make it, or joyful for a party.

• 32:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And it's for you, it's for you to feel good about yourself. I think, that's also the shift, isn't it? Is rather than going, this is for the male gaze, or anyone else's gaze, quite frankly, this is for me to feel good about myself.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it all has to start there. Like, it did for me. It's like, certainly did for me. Because I, when I was, like, you know, in my twenties, trying to figure it out, I certainly could have, like, pandered. And I You know, there was definitely points where I was trying to, you know, audition for, be in Playboy magazine and they're like, you do not look like a Playboy girl. And I was like, so that's why you should have me there, you know? And it was very like, I'm just gonna stick with what I am. I always thought there was a value in being a little bit different. So.

• 32:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  And I think people, it's easy to forget that.

• 33:02Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, as you say, it's got to start with you, but there is obviously an element, especially with the performative element of it, where it is for other people. Do you feel objectified ever? Do you mind?

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Interestingly, like, the times I feel objectified are never to do with being on stage or doing what I do. It's always like other weird things, like in life that you're just like, oh, God, that's so weird to like have somebody asking me that question or like, sometimes like people will, maybe somebody will recognize me, for instance, and they're like, ask for a picture and I'll pose for their picture. And then somebody else will be like, they don't know who I am. They just are like, why do those people want a picture? And they'll be like, very like aggressive and like, I want one too. And you're just like, oh, that's where you feel objectified, when people like put their hands on you or like, I need this too, or can you do this? Can you? And they start like, they get, anything like that, I feel like kind of objectified. But you also get, you know,

• 33:59Speaker 02

  I don't know. I know it's really like taboo to say, but sometimes you're just like, I just want to be objectified for a minute. Wouldn't that be nice?

• 34:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And how refreshing to say that.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, right?

• 34:08Fearne Cotton?

  Like, of course, we want to be attractive to other people.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  I want to be sexualized and objectified sometimes.

• 34:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  You know, but and I do actually funnily like, I think I'm also so used to having like, a theater full of like, women that are there, maybe because they read my book or whatever, or they follow me. And then sometimes when there's, especially this happens in Vegas, when there's like, you know, people that are not usually, they don't know me, they don't know what my show is about. They are just walking into it and they're just like, yeah, this is hot. And I'm like, oh, good. I'm glad that it's still like sexy and hot too. And it's not, you know, like I have to, I like to create a show that feels like if you have never heard of me are still gonna be like, that was so much fun. I've never seen anything like that in my life. So, you know, and but it is funny to like step.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Away from my own stage and my own fans and to suddenly be like in a room where you're like, oh, this is like a bunch of guys.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  You know, like, it's a weird feeling. It's like a shift and it reminds me of like the nineties when I was working in strip clubs. I'm trying to think of an example, but I think there was like a show I was doing in like Stodd and it was like a private members' club. And it was all, I was like, oh, my God, it's all like guys. So weird. I got a shift into like, ah, you know.

• 35:26Fearne Cotton?

  I guess even if it is a room full of men who are sort of ogling you, do you feel that element of perhaps safety? Or like you're not being objectified because you're in control. This is you controlling the atmosphere and what happens.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I'm really, I feel, I always have this feeling like that stage that I have that I'm, I've created is like, it's my, my space. And it's really fun. And it's like, to me, funny and amusing. And I don't need anything from them. You know, I don't need anything from the audience. It's nice when you have like this great energy. There's nothing like the, you know, sold out palladium to give you this like energy, but you learn quickly to just like keep your, you know, hold your own space on stage and not rely on any of the energy because you don't know when it's coming back at you in a, the opposite way that you want it.

• 36:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. Yeah. And you can't, I guess you can't pin your happiness to that outcome. It's just got to be the experience that you're.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to do your show, you know.

• 36:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, of course. I mean, one of the things that you, I guess is an absolute must, whether you have to fake it or it is real, is feeling good in your skin, feeling happy and comfy in your body, which I think many women don't. You know, we have a pretty good two-way conversation with our audience about these sort of subjects a lot. And there are so many people who, whether it's from just the messaging that we're constantly bombarded with, the sort of comparisons that women have had to deal with over the years. Many of us have ended up feeling really bad about ourselves and our physical bodies. What's your experience of, of having your body very out there been like and your levels of confidence?

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I'm, it's like, we're also living in like a time when on social media, everyone's getting criticized like for what they look like and. Um, I don't know. I mean, I kind of like try to, I have, of course, my things that I'm don't that I'll like maybe think I don't like and I try to replace the thoughts with like good thoughts for my body about what it does for me. How it like moves for me and like how good I feel like when I work out. I don't wanna work out. It's not, no, working out is not fun. But I get like, wow, I am so lucky. I get to do this. There's people that would love to know what it feels like to do this, you know, how lucky I am that I get to have the time or that my body moves. What, what does my body do for me? So I try to like change the conversation in my head because I think like,

• 37:46Speaker 02

  I always just think like, we have this little like computer up there that's doing all these things and saying all these things. And it's like, I try really hard to change what it says.

• 37:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, that is easier said than done sometimes. I mean, there is, I definitely had periods, probably more in my twenties, where I felt so uncomfortable in my skin. And you know, like you say, we've got social media now, but back then the press here was so awful and they would like put a picture of you in a magazine and circle it, like a circle of shame. But we still are doing it. I just do not engage with it, but it's still happening. And I, I mean, I, I had eating disorders. I was all over the shop, but I used to sometimes not go out because I thought I don't wanna be seen, you know, and I perfectly normal, fine body. But I just thought, I don't want to be seen. I don't want anyone to look at me. I felt grotesque, you know, I, I really took it all on board. And I think, you know, I age certainly helps. I feel

• 38:39Fearne Cotton?

  I care a lot less about all that now. I just wanna feel healthy and have some energy. But I think when you're a young person, there's so much emphasis on what you look like and the aesthetic and so much of our culture and media still backs that up for young people, which is, you know, constantly worrying, even as a parent, I sort of panic about it slightly.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:59Fearne Cotton?

  How do you navigate that? Or how did you navigate that? Sort of knowing you've got all eyes on you and, and sort of keeping yourself intact mentally. It's so much to get through.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  I feel like I'm lucky that in my twenties, it was not, it was before I was known and nobody was following me around with cameras or, you know. That kind of thing. So I feel very lucky in my twenties. I felt I when I look back on it, I was like, I was just liberated. I was just living. I was like, you know, that. But then in my thirties, when I became like more known and people started following me to try to get my, get me doing, looking bad or doing all the things that you're saying, saying I'm too fat, I'm too thin, I'm too this, I'm too that. Or like saying I'm old when I was like thirty eight. And I was like, wow. It's so weird. It's a weird thing to navigate.

• 39:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  But I don't know. I mean, I think like, what I love now is like, I think back on like an interview where somebody might have said that, oh, you're you're thirty five, you are getting old. What are you doing to do when you're too old for this? Now I get very excited about like, let's go. Say something shitty to me right now. I fucking dare you. You know, like, you know, it's just like become a little bit of a sport. You know, like, sometimes you sit down in interviews and like, what should we, you know, what should they not ask you about? And I'm a little bit like, sometimes I want to make the list of like, don't, don't ask me about these things. But then sometimes I'm like, oh, let's, let's do this. It'll be really fun, you know? Because like, it just is, you know, you just get to the point where now I'm not afraid to like, say what I, what I think, you know?

• 40:31Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God, this is the joy of getting older. Right. You just sort of like shit. I used to sit in interviews back in the day. I remember crying once after this journalist said some really shitty things to me. It was obviously trying to just sort of make me look stupid and trip me up. And he wouldn't, it was relentless. And I cried. And I think, oh, my God, now if he did that, I would just get up and walk out.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Turn the table over and be like, use that for your clickbait, you know, like, it's just, yeah, I was doing an interview just the other day and I was sitting on the stage with this beautiful new theater and trying to talk about the show. And they're asking me these questions that are so off topic. And finally, I was like, we don't, why are you even asking me this?

• 41:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  What is this to do with the show? Like, what is this to do with my world? Like, it just gets like, yeah, you just have, yeah, it's fun. Like, just do it. Because I think there's people out there that will say like, yeah, I, sometimes you just have to say, what, why are you asking me this?

• 41:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And actually, by you doing that, I think it gives permission for other women to go, oh, actually, I don't, I don't like when I'm asked this certain question or whatever it might be. And you have. The sort of impetus to go, yeah, I'm gonna walk away or shut this down or whatever. And when you're younger, it's so hard to find that voice and that confidence.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:44Fearne Cotton?

  It's bloody great getting older.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's, there's definitely people that I like to watch that are younger, that you're watching them go and like crack the whip on people asking them things they shouldn't. I enjoy that. I enjoy it very much when I see that.

• 41:57Fearne Cotton?

  I think this new generation are way better than we were. Doing all this stuff and I'm really like, I'm here for it.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I was just always, and I always had this feeling like, I should just be lucky I'm here. Like, I'm the only, I'm the only stripper that gets to be at this front row in the fashion show. I'm the only one stripper gets, you know, I always had this kind of like, oh, I'm really lucky to be here because I'm not an actress or a pop star and yet they're interviewing me. So I felt like I had to be, and now I'm just like, fuck that, fuck that.

• 42:30Speaker 03

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• 43:02Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 43:04Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Bortella.

• 43:05Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 43:08Speaker 06

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 43:16Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 43:23Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 43:26Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 43:28Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 43:31Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 43:39Fearne Cotton?

  You are responsible for one of the greatest quotes of all time, which I use regularly. You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world and there's still going to be someone that hates peaches. I think about it all the time, all the time, and it's so true. We're trying to please everybody and why, I think is the question. Why are we trying to please everyone? Pointless.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  I mean, it's just like one of those, those like funny little things that, you know, you do, you realise it's like whatever you are. It's like you could be, I remember, it always stays with me. I remember like when Elizabeth Taylor died and I saw some like article about her and it was talking about her life and her legacy and all she did for people with AIDS and in the, I look at it in the comments just for curiosity. And there were all these comments that were like, she wasn't very beautiful, she was a shitty actress, like all these things. And I thought like, okay, that you have to keep this in mind for all times that when you see what people say about you

• 44:42Speaker 02

  or if people, whatever people are saying about you, you have to remember all these people said these things about somebody like Elizabeth Taylor. Who was like, you know, yes, of course beauty is subjective, but like, you know. There's some things you can't, you can say and you can't say, you can't really be like, oh, she was like, you can't really say she was a terrible actress.

• 45:03Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  You can't really, that you can't say.

• 45:05Fearne Cotton?

  No, that's absurd.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:07Fearne Cotton?

  There's a really good documentary I watched about her on a flight the other day and Kim Kardashian produced it and it is bloody brilliant. And it kind of shows that tenacity and the punk kind of attitude she had to so many things. I mean, she was brilliant. It would only be great comments from me. She was the best.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was amazing. There are a lot of great ladies like that, but.

• 45:27Fearne Cotton?

  There really were.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  She was something.

• 45:28Fearne Cotton?

  You know, people, I think it's so hard to not take criticism personally because we, we know it's not. Like, I'm pretty sure those people that wrote in those comments saying she wasn't a good actress or she wasn't very beautiful, which she undoubtedly was, were having a shit day or are going through something really shitty and they just need to vent and it's that.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 45:48Fearne Cotton?

  But you don't take it with a pinch of salt like that at the time necessarily. It can feel extremely personal.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely, because you're sort of like, again, like I feel like I've read in the same comments, like, and I try, I try not to go for the comments, but sometimes they get you and you're not like, you're not trying to. You you like you'll accidentally see something that someone's saying about you and you're like, oh, I wasn't I don't I know better really than to look. You know, you maybe read like something nice like I saw your show and I loved it and a lot of and then right underneath it. You're like, oh, wait, wait, no, I did wrong with that. It's a little bit like, oh, no. I want to read. I I think it's nice when somebody says what it meant to them. I'd like to read, you know, things if it, you know, because it gives me fuel to like want to do more if somebody says why it meant something to them to see my show or read my book or whatever.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Um, or something I said, you know, so, yeah, it it kind of just hits you in the face and you go, oh, God.

• 46:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  I saw something recently accidentally too, where they were like, oh, she's had so many fillers and worked on. I'm like, I've never had any fillers. I get my botox like here, like anybody of of my age, almost anybody. And I I was just like, do I look like, oh, I have a fat face. It looks like it's full of fillers. And I was just like, oh, my God, like, do I need to do I need to like, thin my face out? Like, I don't know. I always kind of liked my like baby fat face, like, like, perfect. You're just like a funny thing where I thought like, oh, for fuck's sake. It's really like a crazy thing to to judge people like that.

• 47:20Fearne Cotton?

  But these would be thoughts in someone's head twenty years ago that that wouldn't appear anywhere. There'd be a thought in someone's head that would then dissipate four seconds later, and they'd probably never think that thought again. But because they're written in black and white and you see them, it feels so much more real and meaningful. And it is all kind of completely meaningless. They're just passing thoughts.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  I know. And it's like, if you could just, and I also always think like, I gotta let you gotta let some shit like roll off your, you know, roll off like water off a duck's back, right? Um, and but it's hard to do, you know, because some things like sneak in and they get in there, you know, like, it's just, you know, like I'm sitting there going, I need to get work done to make it look like I don't have work done.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:05Fearne Cotton?

  And you definitely don't, but I hear you.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  I'm like.

• 48:07Fearne Cotton?

  I know this shit and how it works. It's horrible.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:09Fearne Cotton?

  It's the pits.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:10Fearne Cotton?

  Another great quote. I'm just gonna do all your best quotes.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 48:14Fearne Cotton?

  This is what I love. Only mediocrity is safe from ridicule. Dare to be different.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 48:18Fearne Cotton?

  Which I love. And you have lived by that. You walk in the walk, like you're doing it. You've always done your thing. Which again, I admire greatly because I think it's so easy. I'll even do it in my working environment and I'll think, I know how I interview best, or I'll know how I do business best. And then I'll see someone else doing it and think, oh, maybe I should do what they're doing.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 48:40Fearne Cotton?

  Be more like them. It's really hard to stay with your own authentic set of values and what you know works for you. Do you ever feel swayed off course, or are you just so emphatically you?

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Um, I guess like, okay, well, I'm just thinking in terms of like my work a lot of times with that. And having made two different shows in the last two years, like there's times where I have to like sometimes step back and I'll hear people's ideas out and I might be like, I was kind of stupid. But then I'll also let it play out and see like if it works.

• 49:21Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  You know, like I'll let things like, be like, well, let's just see if it works. And then if it does, I'm like, keep, let's keep it. It's great. Like, and I'll try to like figure out how, I accept that I'm not always like, right. Or like, there's gonna be things like in my show, especially like things that maybe like, like I wouldn't do, or like, I don't necessarily think is that funny. But then people like laugh till they cry and I'm like, keep it, you know? Like, so I feel like I have to like, you know, every once in a while, remove myself from the equation and be like, I'm not, you know, I might not be the customer for this. So, yeah, like there are things like that. But like with me, I guess I just,

• 50:01Speaker 02

  yeah, I always kind of want to take the road less traveled and like try to, I was trying to explain. Oftentimes I find myself explaining like that I don't, you know, like maybe in the show, they're like, oh, we need to use like something that's like of like the moment and culture. And I go, and I say, actually, I kind of like when I think about like my. I'm not a character, but like I go, oh, you know, here's the thing about Dieter Von Tees. Dieter Von Tees exists in a world where she doesn't pay attention to what the hit songs are on the radio. Yeah. Cause I don't. And I like to think outside of it. Does that make sense? Like I get like, oh, I don't want ever, anyone to ever think that I'm like watching and listening to every things in mainstream culture. I want to look outside of it

• 50:43Speaker 02

  and bring like new things to the table. Does that make sense? Like, just like I, yeah, like if somebody's like, we need to do a song. This thing's doing a bit. Everybody knows. And I'm like, well, or not. Or not. We could try something different. You know, so I, I don't know. I think it's that. Like, I don't. No, I get it. In my Vegas show that I was like, hmm. No. No. No.

• 51:04Fearne Cotton?

  No. We don't need like a trap song in the middle of this burlesque.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  Right. There is some techno in there.

• 51:12Fearne Cotton?

  No, I get it. And I also like the fact that you're authentically vehemently you, but open to, we don't always know what's best for us in life even, you know, we think we do. And actually it's probably quite a good universal lesson for us to all go, I know how I like things and what I want things to look like and how we're going to play out, but actually a curve ball will come in and then you're like, I didn't know I was gonna get anything out of this. And it's, you have to be open minded.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:40Fearne Cotton?

  Amidst that, knowing yourself, I guess.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely.

• 51:44Fearne Cotton?

  Dieter, where would you say your happy place is?

• 51:49Speaker 02

  I think I have a, you know, my happy place changes a lot depending on what I'm doing in life. Like right now, I'm doing two shows simultaneously and traveling between Vegas and LA where I live and being here. And I'd say like, a lot of times my happy place, I would say it's on the stage, but it's not always. It's on the stage when it's like, everything is magic and perfect. And you're like, everything falls into place. There's no, it's like when it's. When it feels perfect and the energy is right, it's like, whoa, that's, that is something that I know. One day I'm going to be like, God, if I could just have that feeling one more time. And then my other happy place is just like at home in my, you know, bed with surrounded by my animals.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  You know, just like, this is where I want to be right now. So it's very much like that, those two things, especially right now. Because I am doing so many shows and I don't have any like, well, I could make social time. But the reality is that I just want to like, I want to rest. I want to like just zone out. And I want to like, when I'm home, I, I just want, really want to be home. Like I keep turning down red carpet things and all this stuff. Cause I'm like, oh God, is it bad? I just want to stay home with my like,

• 53:03Fearne Cotton?

  Great.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Stay home and make my own food, wash my own dishes and like lay in bed with my cats.

• 53:07Fearne Cotton?

  Literally nothing better, especially cats.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:10Fearne Cotton?

  You're talking my language.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Really? Yeah, yeah.

• 53:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I prefer them to humans.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Crazy cat person.

• 53:14Fearne Cotton?

  Me? How many have you got?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  I love, I love dogs too. I've always had dogs. Sometimes people get like dog people, cat people. I'm like, what is that?

• 53:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Like I would have all kinds of animals if I had more time.

• 53:24Fearne Cotton?

  What have you got? How many cats are we talking about?

• 53:25Speaker 02

  I have three at the moment.

• 53:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Three cats right now. I don't have any dogs right now. I had dogs for eighteen years, two little sausage dogs. And I just don't have the time for them.

• 53:35Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I will one day. Yeah.

• 53:38Fearne Cotton?

  Cats are great because they just do the same thing.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Cats are totally like easy and fun.

• 53:41Fearne Cotton?

  And they don't care if you've been away. They're just like, oh, you're back. Cool.

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. Yeah.

• 53:45Fearne Cotton?

  Mm hmm. Um, yeah, laying in bed with cats, that is probably one of my happy places too.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Okay, good. I was like, oh, I'm gonna come to this like really important podcast and I'm gonna say like, cats, it's just like cats, you know, because it's just like,

• 53:58Fearne Cotton?

  That's really important.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  The purring, like I love to lay there, like, you know, one here, one here, maybe one here or one like between my knees. And it's just like the purring will put me like right to sleep.

• 54:09Fearne Cotton?

  I think it does something. Yeah, it's like a cellular thing, like purring does something.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  I, I saw like a, um, Uh like a sound bath with cats, you know, there's like goat yoga and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, sound bath with cats, like, yeah.

• 54:23Fearne Cotton?

  I wanna do that.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:24Fearne Cotton?

  I've got this long haired black cat called Frank and I've got Simon. Frank, he, you can pick him up like a baby and every morning before I've even like opened both my eyes, I pick up Frank and I rock him like a baby and he purrs and I'm like, I, I just wanna do this all day. It's like my, the best bit of my day.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, we, I have like the cat sling.

• 54:43Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I need to get a sling, yeah. A stroller, you take my.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  I have, well, I don't, listen, like, my partner got the cat stroller and takes the cat. Cause we have, we have one cat that has cancer and so we're like Make-A-Wish Foundation for cats right now. And she loves to go outside in the cat stroller. So like, that's like, what, why do I spend most of my time doing when I'm home is like, whatever she wants, let's go outside and lay on the sun for a little while. Let's go in the stroller, cause it like perks her up and gets her excited.

• 55:11Fearne Cotton?

  Poor baby.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I like, I, I know it's so, I can't believe now we're talking about like stroll, cat strollers, but. No, but you know, I never, I didn't have kids, you know, I love, I have my animals and it's just like.

• 55:25Fearne Cotton?

  They're the best invention, quite frankly, cats.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Right, no, one time, I had one cat that I had, um, that, that had FIP, which is like a deadly cat virus, right? And we, you can, you can say, you can, there's a cure now for this disease, but it's very, at the time, five years ago, it was very difficult to get the medication and like a long process and expensive. And it caught, it was probably like a twenty two thousand dollar cat at that point. And I remember like sitting there petting it and suddenly I was like, looking at the details and I'm like, you know what? In an alternate universe, this is how much they cost, is like twenty two thousand dollars. Because this is like incredibly designed, it purrs, it's like plush and it's beautiful. It's like a, oh, I have this, can you imagine, I have this tiny little hu- little panther.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  You know, like, oh yeah, anybody can get a full sized panther, whatever, but I've got a little one that I can pick up that can't kill me. So like, yeah, I just started thinking like, in the alternate universe, it's like that, a cat would be like this precious.

• 56:23Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Thing that you have and it would be worth every, and it is worth every penny.

• 56:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yep, without a doubt, that alternative universe is my house, like that is what I'm living and experiencing daily.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's how it should be.

• 56:33Fearne Cotton?

  That's how it should be, amen. Um, a perfect note to finish on, cats. Lisa, thank you so much, good luck with the western one of your show and hopefully see you soon.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 56:45Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, Dieter. I so love that. I had one of those moments during that chat where I was like, "I'm just having a chat with Dieter Von Tees. How cool." I felt really privileged and just like really grateful that we got to hang out for that hour. And obviously the fact that we ended the talk on Cats has just left me feeling particularly perky. Diamonds and Dust is at the Emerald Theatre in London now. Oh, and a little heads up that this week you're going to want to keep a particularly BDI on your podcast feed because there's going to be some extra summery fun happening. That's all I'm saying. You'll definitely want to be here for that, spicy marg in hand if you have it. Right, be back here soon, but in the meantime, a massive thanks to Dieter,

• 57:24Fearne Cotton?

  to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, keep sparkling, you gorgeous sparkly babes.

• 57:59Speaker 03

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• 58:30Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 58:31Speaker 04

  And Maisie Adam.

• 58:32Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 58:34Speaker 04

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 58:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:37Speaker 04

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 58:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 58:48Speaker 04

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 58:51Fearne Cotton?

  Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, you just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 58:57Speaker 04

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.