310. A Matter of Meaning: What Other People Teach You About Your Communication

"Meaning is about being mindful of the effect you have on other people." What makes a life meaningful? We often think purpose and meaning are the same thing, but according to Stanford professor Brian Lowery https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/brian-lowery/, they're fundamentally different. Purpose is what drives us. Meaning comes from the impact we have on others. In this live episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/ from Stanford’s LEAD Me2We event, Lowery and Matt Abrahams examine how our relationships shape who we become, why sincerity matters more than authenticity, and how leaders influence others through every interaction. Along the way, they share practical insights on giving better feedback, building stronger connections, and creating workplaces where people can thrive. Key Takeaways: Meaning comes from your impact on others. Purpose is what drives your actions, but meaning grows when your work positively influences the people around you and continues beyond your own involvement. The way you show up shapes the people around you. Leaders create better teams by practicing self-awareness, communicating with sincerity, and giving feedback that recognizes people's intentions while helping them grow. Activity: Notice your influence. At the end of each workday, write down one interaction that may have shaped someone else's experience—positively or negatively. Reflect on what you communicated beyond your words and what you want to do differently tomorrow. Episode Reference Links: Brian Lowery https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/brian-lowery/Ep.23 Look Within: How to Lead with Self Awareness and Vulnerability https://www.fastersmarter.io/23-look-within-how-to-lead-with-self-awareness-and-vulnerability/Ep.84 Quick Thinks: How Others Define Us https://www.fastersmarter.io/84-quick-thinks-how-others-define-us/ Ep.142 Power and Persuasion: Live Insights from Stanford Experts https://www.fastersmarter.io/142-power-and-persuasion-live-insights-from-stanford-experts/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/310-a-matter-of-meaning-what-other-people-teach-you-about-your-communication/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpageChapters: (00:00) - Introduction (00:39) - Purpose vs. Meaning (02:12) - The Ripple Effect of Meaning (04:06) - How Others Shape Who We Are (05:20) - The Leader's Role in Shaping Others (08:58) - Self-Awareness & Psychological Safety (11:48) - Sincerity vs. "True Self" (12:53) - Feedback For Grow (17:13) - Becoming Better Humans (18:46) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Strawberry.me. https://strawberry.me/quiz?isDirect=1&promotionCode=smart&utm_source=smart Get 50% off your first coaching session today at Strawberry.me/smart https://strawberry.me/quiz?isDirect=1&promotionCode=smart&utm_source=smart Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  Hi, Matt here. I wanted to remind you that for each episode, we provide English language learning support, where we share useful information to help you develop your English skills. Check out these English language learning and other resources along with our newsletter and deep dive videos at fastersmarter.io under Resources. And now a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production, allowing us to bring you this episode free of charge.

• 0:28Matt Abrahams?

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• 1:12Matt Abrahams?

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• 1:23Matt Abrahams?

  Sincerity, connection and empathy define a meaningful life. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm excited to share a live conversation I had with our returning guest, our first four-time guest, GSB professor Brian Lowery. As part of this year's Stanford Lead Me to We, Brian and I sat down to discuss what makes for a meaningful life and how we operationalize that through our feedback too and communication with others. Enjoy our conversation. Brian, thanks for being here. It's exciting to chat with you. Brian and I have had a number of conversations on the show and otherwise.

• 2:06Matt Abrahams?

  And I remember a couple of years ago when we had our conversation, people got really, really excited about some of your research, about motivation, meaning, purpose. Can you remind us the difference from the way you look at meaning versus purpose?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so purpose is what you do in the morning, right? So purpose is like, I have to do this, I have to do that, and I'm trying to achieve this. And meaning is something that, I think of it as like extends you in time, right? So it's not just what you do at any given moment. One way to think of it is like how you be remembered. Why is what you're doing matters? So that's how people talk about meaning. It's about not just what you do, but why does it matter? And also, mattering is usually about other people. So purpose is often for you, what you can do up in the morning. But meaning almost always involves other people. So that's kind of the difference.

• 2:57Matt Abrahams?

  So individual versus connecting to others. Do you have advice and guidance on how we can better find our purpose?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Find our purpose? I think purpose is whatever. You can just decide what your purpose is. There's no magic in purpose. I think that people, when they say purpose, sometimes what they mean is meaning. Purpose is easy. I think the idea of like find your passion, I don't personally subscribe to that. I'm like make what you do your passion as opposed to go out and try to figure out what it is. Because now you're searching and who knows? I think you decide what it is you want to do and then commit yourself to doing that thing. That thing, that is how you find your purpose.

• 3:33Matt Abrahams?

  So it's almost observing what's going on in your life and what's there and then that becomes it. So how do you find meaning?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  I think meaning is about who do you want to serve other than yourself? And that can be a number of people in different ways. That could be your kids. That could be your students. That could be future generations of users of your product. It could be all sorts of people, but it has to be serving someone other than yourself, connecting to someone other than yourselves, providing something outside of yourself that will extend beyond you. So often, the way people will talk about mattering and meaning is that it has to reverberate beyond your presence. Or it can't just be, I'm here with you. I did this thing. It has to be, I'm here with you doing this thing. And when I leave, what I did will continue to influence you.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  How I've touched you will continue to influence me. And then you will influence other people. And so now I've indirectly influenced those people. That is where meaning comes from.

• 4:32Matt Abrahams?

  So it's almost like a ripple effect.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  It's a ripple effect. And I think meaning is about being mindful of the effect you have on other people and being purposeful about the effect you have on other people.

• 4:44Matt Abrahams?

  Okay, so the purpose in many ways drives the meaning.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, in the sense of like, anything you do can affect other people. You just choose to do something, right? You just choose, I'm going to try to make this best place to work. I'm going to choose to make this meeting or this vacation or whatever. But if you're doing it in service of other people and understand that it's affecting those people, it will change the way you do it and it will make it more meaningful for you. When you're thinking about how what you're doing touches and influences other people, that will give you an experience of meaningfulness in your life. Being mindful, other people are being influenced by your behaviors, changes how you understand yourself.

• 5:26Matt Abrahams?

  You're adding at least one layer, if not more, on this notion of empathy that we were talking about. It's this idea of my impact on you and what it means. When I read your book and we talked about it before on the show, one thing that I'm still trying to wrap my mind around is this notion of how we define ourselves through others. Can you walk us through that? And if nothing else, this is a tutorial for me because I'm still trying to grasp this. But can you help me understand?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  So the way I would say it is, without others, you would have no idea who you were. So in this conversation already, you've said like you're, I asked you about it, but you're, you're, you have a wife.

• 6:00Matt Abrahams?

  And I have two kids, yes.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Two kids. All those things come together and tell you something about who you are. Like your dad, your husband, you're a podcaster, you're an interviewer. And you can add things to that. And those collectively are who you are. All of the parts, those plus any others you can come up with that you think of as who you are, depend on relationships with other people. Those ideas of who you are and your own internal ideas of who you are would not exist absent those people. Like you can't be a husband without a wife. You cannot be a parent without kids. You cannot be a podcaster without an audience. So without other people, the things that you use to define yourself don't exist.

• 6:40Matt Abrahams?

  So in connection to others, we help define ourselves. Many folks sitting in this room are leaders, managers, and they have others that work for them. How do we help create the selves of those people who work with us or work for us? I mean, there are things we can do to help them define themselves and their roles in our organizations. Talk to me about that.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  I think that we define people, interact with them all the time in ways that we don't take seriously because in some cultures, at least in the States and other places, not just the States, but certainly in the States, there's a sense of like, I exist as an island. I'm the most important thing. And then all I care about is did I affect you and did you affect me? But there's a barrier that cannot be crossed. I just think that's fundamentally wrong. That is just not how things actually work socially. And so when we're interacting, we are co-constructing each other. Part of that is really philosophical and abstract. Like if you're a leader, you're telling people what they have to do when they go to work. You're telling people what time they have to show up. That you're making them feel happy to be there or hate being there, right? Those things are part of how they think about themselves.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  When they go home, they're talking about you and the workplace in particular ways and themselves as a part of that. Like, I hate my job. I'm the kind of person who hates my job. I love my job. I'm the kind of person who loves my job. You know, these people at work, they are annoying to me or I miss them or whatever it is. But all those things are changing how you see yourself. And they're changing how you show up and behave at work too. If you're a manager, you are constructing the environment in which people are working. The environment in which people work, the environment which people live in all sorts of ways directly affects how they behave. And so when you see someone behaving in a way that you like or don't like, you should first ask yourself, if you're a leader in that environment,

• 8:27Speaker 01

  what am I doing that produces that, right? And this gets away from this idea of like, they are who they are and they're just doing what they do. And you start to think of like, how am I participating in producing this behavior? Now, people are like, but that's not true. That's just a terrible human being. And they're just lazy. I'm like, that's fine. I don't know. Yeah, there are some lazy people. But the thing is, one, I'm right. Two, even if I'm wrong, which I'm not, but even if I were wrong, it is more rational to ask yourself as a leader, what can I do to change the situation than to say, I have no agency. I can't do anything because they are who they are. Given those two, I think you would choose to say like, where am I in this?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  And that agency requires responsibility. What the responsibility I'm talking about here is understanding that how you behave as a leader is shaping how the people that work for you show up and behave.

• 9:23Matt Abrahams?

  And I think that puts a lot of responsibility on leaders to really reflect on that. A lot of leaders just optimize for output, right? And they don't really think about what they're doing that can lead to that.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  People don't understand that who they are is shaping who their employees are. So it's not just what you tell them to do. It's who you are, how are you showing up? And so people often just focus on what's outside of them. Like, how are they behaving? How do I alter their behavior without looking at the self? If you change how you show up, you will change how people around you show up. And so in the context of work, people might not see it that way. But if you think about families, people understand this implicitly. If you're like in a terrible mood all the time or you're unhappy with life or something like that, for sure, that is going to affect your wife and your kids. Like, no one has to explain that to you. But somehow you go to work, it's as if like people all have their responsibilities. Who I am doesn't matter. I'm just telling them what to do. You do what you're told. And like my person, how I show up has no influence. That just cannot be true.

• 10:18Matt Abrahams?

  That analogy really does help cement the idea. We think of that with our family and friends very easily, but we don't see it at work. Is there advice or best practices you have for people in leadership roles to help maximize the success and the well-being of the people that work with them? What can we do to help them see themselves that way?

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Doing work on self-awareness actually has notable effects on how your employees respond to you and their experience of work. So there's evidence, there's research on this, right? So the closer that what your employees see you is the way you see yourself, the safer and the more efficient your employees are, as an example. So one is Being willing to examine the self and being willing to respond to the environment in such a way that allows for people to know you in a way that allows them to feel a degree of psychological safety. And psychological safety here is at best predictability, like, understand you. And you think I understand you, that changes the way we work together.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  And that's not about you're nice. It's not about doing what I want you to do. It's just like, I'm working for you. I understand you. You agree with that understanding. Now we can work in a different way than if, I don't really know what's going on with you. I can't figure out what's going on with you. I hear what you're telling me to do, but I don't understand you. That creates a distance and some degree of unsafety, which undermines the work relationship and undermines the quality of the work of people. So self-awareness, also being willing to examine and accept the perspective of the other people, even if it doesn't match yours, is legitimate and reasonable. So I might not agree with how you see things, but I should take your experience seriously, whether

• 12:03Speaker 01

  I agree with it or not. And again, the agreement is not the issue, but like truly trying to understand, engaging with how you see the world. Also, that there's clear evidence that that has positive effects because often people care about being respected. So sometimes people worry about, or think that people only care about what they get. Of course, people care about that. But they also care about, did you hear me? Do you care that I want this thing? Even if you don't give it to me, do you even respect me? And if you demonstrate that to people, like you're asking questions, you really care about the answer they get. If you don't agree, you're trying to understand, and they see that as sincere, the way they'll respond to that and the kind of leeway they will give you is surprising. And so that's another thing I would tell people, like, one, understand

• 12:46Speaker 01

  yourself. Be sensitive to how other people see you so that you can create a match between how you see yourself and how the people see you. There's positive gain there. Two, and as a part of that, taking seriously the perspective of other people. You don't have to agree with them, but taking it seriously changes their experience of the situation. Those things together have huge positive benefits.

• 13:09Matt Abrahams?

  It's with self-awareness as well as acknowledging seriously the other person's perspective. It strikes me that that requires a level of confidence and vulnerability, though, to do that, to show up as your true self and to look internal.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Just to be clear, I have no idea what a true self is. But here's what I know. You show up in a particular way. Whether that is your true self or not, I don't know. I would worry more about sincerity than truth. The goal is not to like be who you are all the time with everyone. Like, that's just not how human beings operate. And so instead of worrying about the true self, I think you should worry about sincerity. Am I being as honest as I can right now?

• 13:47Matt Abrahams?

  With myself and with others?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yes. And that is a different thing than saying, am I being my true self? Sometimes being your true self might be an asshole. Like, you're in a bad mood, you're being an asshole. That's fine. Don't be that true self. It's okay. But when you engage with people, be sincere. And that's different than like, because people have this idea of like, if it's in my head, I gotta say it. No, you don't. No. Please don't be your true self with me. But be sincere. And I think that that's what people are expecting, sincerity.

• 14:14Matt Abrahams?

  We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. The best communicators don't just get their message across, they make it easy for people to know what to do next. Your website can do the same thing. With Squarespace, you can build a polished online presence that clearly shows people who you are, what you offer, and how they can work with you. If you offer coaching, consulting, classes, or other services, Squarespace lets you showcase those offerings, take payments, and use Acuity Scheduling so people can book time with you directly. And with built-in analytics, you can see how people are finding and engaging

• 14:57Matt Abrahams?

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• 15:21Matt Abrahams?

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• 16:05Matt Abrahams?

  50% off with promo code THINKFAST, exclusive for our listeners. That's LESA, L-E-E-S-A.com. Promo code THINKFAST for up to 30% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. Let them know that we sent you at the survey at the end of checkout. It does require you to really think about and know what's important to you and to have your own values understood. I want to talk about the crucible of feedback because it strikes me that, you know, many leaders have to give feedback. But this could be a friction point or some tension with some of the issues you're talking about. Because when I give you feedback, I'm confronting your perceptions of yourself. How does feedback work well in this paradigm?

• 16:46Speaker 01

  I think it should be, again, sincere. And if you understand the other person's perspective of themselves, I think the fear is that it's hard to give hard feedback. It's hard to get hard feedback, or fear that that's what you're gonna get. I think once you create a relationship where there's sincerity, you can give feedback in such a way where you're asking people to understand how you experience what is happening. And this is, I think, the issue with feedback is it feels like I'm making a statement of truth that you don't like. But that's not really what's happening. What I'm telling you is, here's how I perceive what is happening. Here's how I'm experiencing what you're doing. And maybe even here's what I'm thinking about that. That's a very different claim

• 17:26Speaker 01

  than like, you are not good at your job, right? You are bad at this thing. I might be like, look, what you did here didn't have the effect that we hoped it would. I think that would be enough for most people to understand. They're like, okay, can I get better or not? And they can ask questions. You know what's funny about this? I'm like working on fiction writings, and I have a developmental editor. And so a developmental editor works like you write, you send them pages, and they give you feedback on the pages. They give you direct feedbacks. They go through your writing, they make comments, and they give you a letter. It's like, here's what I see, here's what I think, here's what you need to work on, blah, blah, blah. It feels deeply personal, and it's very vulnerable to write something because it comes from you, it's who you are, and then have someone give you feedback on that. And recently, in our meeting, I was like, you

• 18:11Speaker 01

  know, I really love the way you get feedback. And like, I felt like I learned something from her, and this is kind of where this is coming from. Because, one, the feedback always feels honest, and I don't always like it. I don't even always agree with it. And sometimes it's like the version of like, this isn't good. And I understand what she's saying, but I never feel defensive. I look forward to having these meetings with her. I look forward to getting her letters and feedback. I know it's not gonna all be positive. In fact, I expect it not to all be positive. And I'm not sensitive about it at all. And I talked to her about it, actually. I said, like, you know, I'm just gonna tell you that, like, Vessel, I teach a lot of classes, and like, you're really good at this. I really appreciate the way you give feedback. And what she said was, when I give feedback, I always think about the intent of the author. So I'm like, what were you trying to do?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  What was your goal here? You might have completely failed, and I do all the time. And I need you to understand how you failed because my job is to help you grow. So I have to give you this feedback. And that engagement with her, I think, why that feedback works, and what I love about it is I feel seen in the feedback. And when she says something, I'm like, that's correct, right? But I feel seen. Because, by the way, I worked with someone else who I hated, couldn't stand her. I was like, this person is terrible. And she was also probably right, but the feeling was like, this person is telling me what I should be. She's telling me what she sees and how I'm falling short of her ideal. It was like, even if it was right, it was just bad. And this other woman is like, I see what you are trying to be. I see what you are trying to do. And I'm gonna

• 19:40Speaker 01

  tell you where you're falling short. It was just a world of difference. And I thought about that. And I'm like, look, if you assume that people are trying to be successful, right? And you're looking at their intent, and like, even if they fall short, it's not that people don't know they're falling short. If they don't, then it is your job to tell them. And so saying like, I see what you're trying to do. I see you're making effort. Here's where it might not be working. And doing it in a way that takes seriously that person's desire to be successful, I think changes things dramatically.

• 20:10Matt Abrahams?

  So much richness in that answer. The part that I'm really reflecting on in my own life, seeing the person for who they want to be versus who you think they should be is a fundamental difference in how you approach feedback. And what you said earlier, which I think is also really important, is what am I doing that's contributing to this? So it's not just about, here's what's wrong, or here's what could be improved. It's what am I doing? And then really help the person to see it through that understanding and being present for them. I have to really think about how I've been giving feedback. I appreciate that. Last question I'll ask. The class you teach is very popular. A lot of people are really excited to take it. What's one thing you hope your students take away from the class?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  The thing that I always want people to take away is, if you hear me talk outside of class, I think is probably more apparent, but I think for me, my class is about being a better human being. And I don't mean good. I don't mean like, I hope you all are good people. You should strive to be good people. But I'm not talking about morally a good person. What I'm talking about is being better at being human. And I think the fundamental thing about being human is our connections with other human beings. And I mean this literally. You are not human without other human beings. You cannot be fully human absent other human beings. And so what is defining about being human is our connections with the quality of interactions with other human beings. When you show up and working

• 21:37Speaker 01

  there, people there, those are not different human beings than the human beings that are at home or at any place else that you see human beings. And so being a better human being, being more effective at engaging with human beings in relationships will definitely make you a more effective leader.

• 21:55Matt Abrahams?

  It boils down to connection and other focus. Well, thank you, Brian. An incredibly rich conversation. It's about introspection. It's about invitation and empathy and connection. And it is through that that we build ourselves and the stories that we work with others. So it's about communication internally and externally. Thank you.

• 22:18Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more from Brian, please listen to episodes 23, 84, and 142. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Alex McCarthy, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wunder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out FasterSmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining Think Fast, Talk Smart's learning community at FasterSmarter.io/learning. You'll

• 23:01Matt Abrahams?

  find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI coach, and book club opportunities. Again, that's FasterSmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community.

• 23:17Matt Abrahams?

  Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.