Marc Maron, Vol. II

Marc Maron, the podcaster who set the standard is back to chat with Josh about the end of WTF, his new stand up special and his acting career. UPCOMING EVENTS! August 14th -- The Thursday Murder Club with Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan, Ben Kingsley, & Chris Columbus in New York! ⁠-- ⁠Get your tickets here!⁠ August 15th -- Ben Stiller & Seth Rogen LIVE in Los Angeles -- ⁠⁠⁠Get your tickets here ⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Whether it's hot yoga, over 100 degree weather, or too much sun. Gator Light, with a specialized blend of five electrolytes, was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration. Shop now at retailers nationwide. Gator Light: Hydrates Faster Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  Dakota Johnson asked me this, I ask everybody.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  Can you ask her if she would, you know, marry me?

• 1:06Josh Horowitz?

  You have a significant other.

• 1:08Speaker 03

  I know, but this is fantasy, man.

• 1:09Josh Horowitz?

  Fantasy. You're a fan? You're a fan of her work?

• 1:12Speaker 03

  I love her.

• 1:13Josh Horowitz?

  She's great.

• 1:14Speaker 03

  I talked to her dad, but it wasn't appropriate for me to like, hey, could I get the number?

• 1:19Josh Horowitz?

  I could make this magic happen for you.

• 1:21Speaker 03

  And Hathaway and Dakota Johnson.

• 1:23Josh Horowitz?

  Was it yours?

• 1:24Speaker 03

  But Hathaway's married and, yeah, I have somebody, but like, you know, for Dakota, I rethink a lot. Maybe there's too big an age gap. Doesn't necessarily stop it.

• 1:36Josh Horowitz?

  It's okay. She asked me this, let's see if your crush remains after you hear this question.

• 1:40Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:48Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, today on Happy, Sad, Confused, we've got Marc Maron, the podcast extraordinary, the brilliant comedian, actor, he does it all, back on the podcast for a very fun, unique conversation. Hey guys, I'm Josh, welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. This is such a cool one, I love Marc Maron. If you catch me on a jog through New York, walking the streets of New York, chances are I'm probably listening to WTF. Probably my favorite podcast, and has been for many, many years. Mark is ending the show. So this was an opportunity to talk to Mark about the podcast,

• 2:31Josh Horowitz?

  comedy, and so much more. More on that in a second. First, let me just mention, as always, please check out our Patreon if you love what I do. If you want early access and merch and all the cool stuff, bonus materials, support us over there because it really helps us do stuff over here. Patreon.com/happy say confused. No events to mention because we're kind of like in the middle of stuff right now, but there's, there's, I'm doing a lot and there's more to come. So stay tuned for more live events that are coming up in the happy second fuse universe in New York, LA, maybe other places. Stay tuned. Okay, a little more on Mark before we dive into the conversation. First of all, some context. Maybe this is TMI, but I mentioned it to him. I

• 3:16Josh Horowitz?

  wouldn't mention this to most people, but I felt like I had to with Mark. I did this conversation the day after drum roll hernia surgery. I'm sorry, guys. I don't want to hear about people's hernia surgery, but I'm just going to tell you because I said it to Mark. I felt like Mark is such an open and honest conversationalist. I had to like own up to it. So I was on some meds. Hopefully, I was still coherent and with it enough for this conversation. In retrospect, by the way, I can't believe I did this the day after because it's now been a little time and I have been in a lot of pain to be quite frank since the surgery. That day, though, I think he caught me in like

• 4:00Josh Horowitz?

  the day where my strong meds were still, still working and I wasn't quite feeling it yet. But in retrospect, I don't know how I did this one. This is true heroism. Not really. Okay, so that's one piece of context. The other Is like I said, I just want to give context to where Mark is right now. Mark recently announced the end of WTF, which is his podcast that really is the the mother of of all of what I do and so many people do. I'm not sure if I'd do what I do without Mark. He certainly has been an influence on me. We have different styles, different ways we do it, but so much of my inspiration from

• 4:41Josh Horowitz?

  him has been how he made the interview format and the podcast format his own. So certainly I tried to chart my own path, many have, but I have such admiration for what he does. Also, by the way, take out the podcasting brilliant comedian, of course, his new special on HBO Max is panicked. Check it out. It's really great. He's also super active in film. Bad Guys Two is out in theaters. He's got a doc that's about him that I've checked out called Are We Good? If you've listened to his podcast, you know, that sentence makes means a lot. I think that's coming in October. Put that on your list. In memoriam, which I'm really psyched to see.

• 5:24Josh Horowitz?

  I think we briefly talk about here. The Springsteen movie Deliver Deliver Me From Nowhere he's in. I mean, this dude could like just do one lane, but he can do acting, comedy, podcasting, and so much more. So a lot of respect for him. One of the great conversationalists, and I'm just so privileged that he came back on the podcast. Last time we did one of these, it was live in front of an audience and that had its own vibe. But yeah, this is one of those ones I can't believe like I know Marc Maron and that he knows and respects me enough to do the podcast a few times. It means a lot, truly.

• 6:01Josh Horowitz?

  So congrats to Marc Maron on an amazing run WTF and enjoy this conversation about that and a great many other things. Here's me and Marc Maron. Marc Maron, should we do this?

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Let's do it.

• 6:16Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, we're here.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:17Josh Horowitz?

  You came, you came to this building. I came to this building where

• 6:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:21Josh Horowitz?

  We're squatting in someone's editing booth, I guess.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I mean, it's a nice shot. You know, it's like, where are they at a theater? It's like Siskel and Ebert.

• 6:28Josh Horowitz?

  That's right. What did you think of Ravenous? We were just talking about obscure movies.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  It's one of my favorite movies.

• 6:35Josh Horowitz?

  Full disclosure, since I feel like I can talk, I wouldn't bring this up with anybody else, except that you are so unfiltered and say everything that's on your mind. I had hernia surgery yesterday and I'm on serious medication right now, Mark.

• 6:46Speaker 03

  That's good, it's good for you. It'll loosen you up, you'll feel relaxed, not as much at stake. It'll ease some of the neurotic, kind of like, what next moments you'll have.

• 6:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, so if you see me clutch my midsection halfway through, that's what's going on.

• 7:00Speaker 03

  Well, then you should be on more medicine, if you're gonna have pain.

• 7:02Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly, bring on the oxy.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:05Josh Horowitz?

  You have a lot going on, my friend. It's good to see you. Congratulations on Panicked, The Doc, hopefully people will see soon, Bad Guys 2.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  Stick.

• 7:14Josh Horowitz?

  We're out of time.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  That's it, we did it.

• 7:17Josh Horowitz?

  Can we start with Comic Con? We were talking about it. So, I do Comic Con every year, because I'm a big old nerd, no surprise to anybody.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:24Josh Horowitz?

  What's the Marc Maron plunged into nerd-dom experience going to San Diego Comic Con for Bad Guys 2?

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Well, I wouldn't, I don't know that I ever would find myself there in any other situation, but, you know, the movie flew us down there for the day, you know, to San Diego, which was good. It seemed like a short jump, but I'd made that drive to San Diego from LA. It's supposed to be about, you know, two hours or a little under. It's always four hours, and you can't get in and out.

• 7:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  So they flew us in, and I had a sense of what it would be, and it sort of lived up to that in terms of what I saw of it. I didn't walk around and take in all the different, you know, booths or whatever they have there. There was not as many costumes as I thought there would be. But, for me, you know, doing that panel in, what is it, H?

• 8:08Josh Horowitz?

  Hall H?

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Hall H was a big deal, I guess, and I was not really informed that it was a big deal. But it was like 5,000 people in there. And it was me, and Craig Robinson, Anthony Ramos, and Danielle, and Maria.

• 8:20Josh Horowitz?

  Awkwafina.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, Awkwafina.

• 8:22Josh Horowitz?

  Rockwell, of course.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  And Rockwell, right, and Natasha. And, it was fine. It's just, I find that... You know, in my experience of seeing those from afar for a few minutes, that, you know, just talking, you know, with that many people in front of 5,000 people, like, it can be flat, you know, like, and I was like, someone's gotta punch this up. So, you know, I wanted to get some laughs, because it's my innate instinct. And I think it worked out okay. I don't know, those things happen in a vacuum. I don't, you know, I didn't see any footage from it, I don't know, but it seemed to do okay in the room. It becomes very difficult, after a certain point, to continue to talk about your character in an animated movie.

• 9:08Josh Horowitz?

  For 45 minutes, like, how much?

• 9:10Speaker 03

  Like, how many, you know, interviews can you do about, like, what does a snake really feel? Or what, if you were gonna be another animal, like, this stretch to find, for interviews to figure out, you know, how to engage an actor around doing a voice.

• 9:24Josh Horowitz?

  No, I've been on the, you've been on the other side, too. You haven't had to really probably interview folks doing that too much. But, yeah, there's like a six-minute cap on what you can talk about.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  About animated?

• 9:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Well, it's crazy, it's like, yeah, it's...

• 9:35Josh Horowitz?

  It's like, what were you like in the booth? What were you wearing?

• 9:37Speaker 03

  That's it, you know, tell us about efforts, you know, "Ooh, ah, ee, uh." And then, uh, but, you know, I did run into some old friends, which was, is always good. You know, I saw Eugene Mirman, you know, from the Bob's Burgers crew I've known forever, John Benjamin. And I ran into, uh, um, oh, come on, dude.

• 10:00Josh Horowitz?

  My brain. I'm the one that had surgery.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm just getting old.

• 10:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Well, here's what I'll say. I do appreciate that in an animated film panel, you and Sam were able to work in references to Deliverance and The Deer Hunter for the children in the audience. Did anybody from Universal say, like, maybe next time, we don't need to go to 70s R-rated?

• 10:19Speaker 03

  No, and like, after I dropped my first couple of fucks, I realized, like, there's a lot of kids in here.

• 10:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  And, you know, and I kinda reeled that in.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  I think the best moment was where, you know, Kevin McCarthy was like, "Well, you know, what other DreamWorks characters would you like to see your characters engaged in?" And he got to me, and I said, "I'm Googling DreamWorks movies."

• 10:45Speaker 03

  I really didn't know.

• 10:48Josh Horowitz?

  Shrek?

• 10:49Speaker 03

  You're not a Shrekophile?

• 10:50Josh Horowitz?

  I would have pegged you for.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  I don't watch any anime.

• 10:52Josh Horowitz?

  No, I get it.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  I don't, I really don't. My girlfriend got me into the Japanese guy.

• 10:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  What's his name? Yeah. So, you know, that was, you know, and I get it. You know, I just have a, you know, and I can take it in. I like a good story, but I get, just get bored, really. But I think Bad Guys 2 is pretty, you know, exciting.

• 11:14Josh Horowitz?

  How do you reconcile? Look, you always talk about, for those of us that listen to the podcast, listen to your standup, like, not being everybody's cup of tea. You're kind of like, you know, and you've kind of reconciled that. And yet, here we are, talking 2025, and you're in, you're in these giant movies. You're in Bad Guys 2. You were in Joker a few years back. Like, for good or for bad, Mark, I'm sorry to break it to you. You have the biggest podcast on the planet, arguably, or top, whatever.

• 11:36Speaker 03

  Reputationally, yes.

• 11:37Josh Horowitz?

  Well, okay.

• 11:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:39Josh Horowitz?

  Except, except that you are a main part of pop culture. Can you take that in?

• 11:45Speaker 03

  I don't know what pop culture is anymore. It all seems very fragmented, and I don't quite see that I am necessarily a big part of pop culture. I do feel like I have found a place in it through persistence and talent. But I don't know. My brain still always compares me to, like, why am I not the biggest thing in the world? Why does that guy get to fill arenas? But ultimately, it's not, I don't, if I really think about doing those things, I don't want it.

• 12:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  But it is a way to constantly not feel good about myself, which seems to be, you know, kind of a mode that I'm, you know, unfortunately, I don't, I don't think comfortable with, but, but I, I live in that more than I want to. So I think in terms of reconciling, it's, it's, you know, acknowledging that part of me as not being good, and sort of have a certain amount of pride and gratitude for where I'm at and, and the world that I've created for myself. So that's the reconciliation.

• 12:44Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it is, I mean, folks haven't seen the doc yet. It sounds like it's gonna be coming, hopefully, sooner rather than later. But I found a really telling moment in this doc about you called, Are We Good? Where you're like talking to your dad, and you're like, I'm never gonna win awards, Dad.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:59Josh Horowitz?

  And it's, again, getting at this thing, like, why do you need awards, Mark?

• 13:04Speaker 03

  Well, well, that's an interesting thing, because there, there is an element of... You know, like everybody, if you're in this business, right? And you're putting out things that you want people to like, or you want people to engage with. And, you know, this idea that it's like, you know, do it for yourself. It's like, alright, that's all well and good. But I'm doing it for myself, but I'm putting it out there for other people. And, you know, so the idea that like that shouldn't matter is just, you know, okay, but good luck with that.

• 13:37Josh Horowitz?

  You have to have a real, like, that's a different personality trait that I don't share either. You're right, that can just be so self-validating, that's like, give it...

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Well, I'm better at it, I'm getting better at that. Like, I can give my, like, but self-validation, even if you have parents that, you know, weren't, you know, giving you what you thought you needed in terms of that,

• 13:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  and, you know, whatever that hole is, um, that there is a sort of moment, you know, if you've had to kind of self-parent your whole life, you know, in the void, where you can actually be like, you know, I'm pretty, you know, I did a good job with that.

• 14:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  And also, in terms of awards and stuff, look, no matter how many people tell me, like, it's not a meritocracy, and even if you learn the sort of what really happens with awards voting, as an awards voter, and who's voting, and what they're voting for, it's, a lot of times, it's like, oh, I know that guy. It's got nothing to do with anything. I get it. But the Peabody thing is real. You know, that, and in terms of like...

• 14:37Josh Horowitz?

  Seeing who's won it, who hasn't.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Well, it's just like, it was, it's not even a no-brainer, it deserved it, you know, at a different time.

• 14:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  But then you kind of break that down, and you're like, it's probably one person, or, you know, at that time, I thought it might have been the language, who the hell knows?

• 14:50Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  But it doesn't matter to anybody? No, but I think it deserved it. Right?

• 14:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 03

  You know, the other stuff, the politics of Emmys, Oscars, Grammys, whatever, and the voting, you know, public of those things, I get that that's not a fair thing, you know, and it's a, for whatever reason, people win that shouldn't have been...

• 15:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you look at the history of the Oscars, this is the old conversation. The ones that win aren't the one, the greatest films.

• 15:14Speaker 03

  That's right, but the Peabody, you know, had a certain amount of integrity.

• 15:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  And, you know, we did something within its purview.

• 15:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  That, so...

• 15:24Josh Horowitz?

  Maybe you'll get a Kennedy Center Honor, or a Moanaia Trump Honor now, whatever they call it.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, then you gotta wrestle with, like, I'm not doing that.

• 15:32Speaker 03

  But no, it's really about validation sadly, and you know, I try to kind of reel that in. Like, you know, I'm in stick with Owen. And I think it's a good show in the sense that the humanity of it is great.

• 15:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  And I like working with Owen. You know, but you never know with these things. But you know, people, I can tell when people come up to me like, they like it. And a lot of them like me in it. And you know, however I feel about it is not important in that moment where you're like, oh, okay. Well, then it's doing something, you know?

• 16:05Josh Horowitz?

  Do you ever think about, look, I mean, like, very, in the early days of the podcast, there was like that, that section where you were kind of always talking. SNL came up all the time.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:13Josh Horowitz?

  You had to reconcile the stuff with Lorne and you kind of, seems like you got through that.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 16:17Josh Horowitz?

  But like, if you had got an SNL, if you got a Weekend Update, you wouldn't have this life. That's the irony is like, it came, as you often say, out of desperation WTF.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:26Josh Horowitz?

  And that in turn ignited the stand-up career.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 16:29Josh Horowitz?

  So, I don't know, everything does happen for a reason, I guess.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I think about that particular little, what do you call that? The ever, and it's an adage?

• 16:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Uh, the everything happens for a reason one?

• 16:45Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. In order to maintain your sanity, you kind of have to look at things like that.

• 16:50Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Or else, yeah, madness lies.

• 16:52Speaker 03

  I mean, it's all, yeah. I mean, it's, that's, that's sort of a way of contextualizing.

• 16:58Josh Horowitz?

  Failure.

• 16:59Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 17:01Josh Horowitz?

  That's true. What we tell ourselves as we go to bed. Sure. Well, didn't get it.

• 17:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, yeah, but everything happens for a reason, you know? That, you kind of stretch that, you know, with cancer and, you know, like you lose a hand, you know? Sure, like you learn how to work your left hand better, but who needed that lesson?

• 17:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:22Josh Horowitz?

  That's fair.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 18:00Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 18:33Josh Horowitz?

  Let's give some love to the new HBO special, Panicked. Fantastic work. I do think, and I think you-

• 18:39Speaker 03

  You watched it?

• 18:40Josh Horowitz?

  I did. I enjoyed it very much. Between From Bleep to Dark and this, I feel like, and I think you would agree with this, this is the best work of your career. Like, you're locked in.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  Thank you. I am locked in. It was kinda interesting, because I noticed it. You know, like, there was, well, I think From Bleep to Dark set me up for, you know, having, for being grounded in some of the stuff I was doing. And I made a lot of choices in this special that were only possible because of how long I've been doing it, my experience in it, in comedy and making decisions around how to present things that, you know, I couldn't have done any other time. But in terms of, you know, what'd you say? Focus, grounded? What was it? I'm really in it? What was it? What'd you just say?

• 19:28Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know. The surgery is affecting me.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  But, um- Well, I did notice, you know, obviously I've been working this material for a year and a half, two years, and you know, that crunch process of the few weeks before to get it down from, you know, an hour and a half, hour forty-five to seventy-three. I had seventy-three in my head. Because "Bleak to Dark" was seventy-three, and they get kind of weird about this. They don't even want you really, I think most people are doing like thirty-four minute specials, and it's like, that's not even the job. It's not the job. It's like, that's like a middle set. Right. And I come from the world of like, you know, we do an hour. That's what, you know, comedians do. Yes. And HBO, who has been great, always great to me to work with, you know, because I'm talking to my manager, they're like, they're pretty set on the hour. I'm like, I kind of need seventy-three. And I had that number because they gave that to me in "Bleak to Dark."

• 20:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I'm working from an hour and a half. So, a couple of things happened. Like, I settled on an outfit long before the special. Because I've made, that's a mistake I've made over and over again. You know, I buy the clothes the week before, and I'm like, this looks cool. And then I watch it, and I'm like, what the hell did I do that? Why, what's that vest? I never wore that again. Or I'll wear just like, I'm just gonna be comfortable, and I wear this shitty flannel shirt that, you know, I wear all the time, and it doesn't look good on camera. And then on "Bleak to Dark," we had a stylist, and he put me in a purple leather thing, which looked good, but whatever. But I walked into this outfit, and I wore it on the road for months. And there was this ongoing problem with the shirt, because it was a little snug, and when I sat down, because of the fabric, it would open up and show my stomach. And, but

• 21:00Speaker 03

  I wanted to wear the shirt, and somehow or another, I let go of that, because I'm like, I'll just try to be aware of it when I'm sitting, but who the fuck wants that during the special? But I was gonna wear it. And some kind of weird kind of miracle, like, I get to the Harvey, the Bam Harvey, where we shot it, and they have a, you know, a wardrobe person who works for the theater. She's like, I can fix that. We'll put snaps, hidden snaps in between the buttons. I'm like, oh my god, now it's gonna work out. It's all hinging on the shirt.

• 21:30Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know if the comedy will work at all, at all, but I look okay.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  It adds to it. You don't know how my brain works. It's like it's gonna lock into something. Like this morning, I'm going to CBS and somehow I'm in the car coming to CBS with the one pair of khaki pants, which I hardly ever wear, that, you know, I bought for, you know, TV and stuff. Uh, I'm driving in the car and there's a big old wet spot on my pants. I'm like, what the fuck is that? Is that like, I had this like creatine drink and I think, is that gonna come out? So now I'm dumping water on the pants in the car to CBS and I gotta be on camera in 40 minutes. That's the kinda shit that will-

• 22:06Josh Horowitz?

  What will Gayle King think of my, my problems?

• 22:08Speaker 03

  Well, but no, it's just my brain is like, why does this happen to me? Do other people deal with this? Clooney doesn't deal with this, you know, so... So like I can lock into that stuff as a way of grounding myself, anxiety. Like it's, it's a way, it's almost a way of getting into the present. Like it's not on purpose, but it does function that way. It'll get you out of your head if you're, you know, sitting there, you know, wondering, you know, if your pants are, look like you peed in them.

• 22:31Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Well, also by then you're still locked into your set, to your, to what you're talking about.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  But it was all different. There was something about the vibe of, of this one, of Panic, that had never happened before. I was completely, um, grounded and, you know, and, and not even focused, but totally comfortable with what I had to do. And I've done it many times before, but this was the only time where I didn't let my brain do this sort of like, I don't know if this is gonna work. I made very specific decisions around presenting certain pieces of material. And some of that material was delicate. It's weird, if you really think about this special, how much is in it? There's a lot in there, dude. And I'm, I'm just seeing what people come out of, like, oh, I really like this bit. And like, there are bits in there that are gnarly, but I pull them off.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  But, but, you know, there's a little bit of something for everybody, but they're gonna, you know, they're gonna go through some things. But the other thing is, is that the theater, I thought the production designer, you know, there was a vision to it, and it was similar to bleak to dark, the same guy did it, Mark Janowitz. But I got obsessed with the Harvey Theater for a very specific reason, and I can't tell you why, but we did it. Like, we were gonna do it at Town Hall again, but I didn't. It's too wide, it's a short stage, and there are too many people. So I'm like, there's gotta be another venue in New York, 850, 900 seats. And we look at the Bam Harvey, and we go over there, and that back wall, that's the back wall in the special, that is the back wall of the theater. I said, "There's a history there, it looks like a Rothko painting."

• 24:00Speaker 03

  And I'm like, "We have to, that has to be all of it. That back wall has to happen." And Mark Janowitz, the production designer, he's looking at it, he knows the set, and he says, "I'm thinking Kintsugi." And I'm like, "I don't even know what that means." And I look it up, and it's a Japanese art, it's an ancient art of restoring ceramics with gold, have you seen that?

• 24:21Josh Horowitz?

  I haven't.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  It kind of recreates the object into a new form through putting it back together. And they use gold to do the cracks?

• 24:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 03

  And I'm like, "All right, well, whatever, yeah, that sounds great." So the whole idea of doing it in a theater that's, you know, over 100 years old, that has not been restored, but maintained as a ruin almost.

• 24:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 03

  Having that back wall that has a whole history of use, and then him like pulling it together with these Kintsugi lines, which are there, whether or not people know this, this is the nature of production.

• 24:56Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Design, is that the poetics of it were there. And then, and then at the end, when I'm doing the bit about trauma, they fade up those Kintsugi lines onto the wall. So it all kind of fit as a theatrical piece. So everything was kind of pretty solid.

• 25:14Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, do you have a vision, look, you're, we're gonna get to WTF and that chapter closing. Obviously, stand-up is continuing. Stand-up will always be.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  I guess, you know, I never know if I'm gonna pull another one out.

• 25:24Josh Horowitz?

  You say that every single time.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  I know I do, but it's true in the moment. When I say it, I mean it.

• 25:28Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a model in your head? Like, you've talked to every, you've talked to the comedians coming up, you've talked to the legends at the end of the line, of like, what, what a later act, not literally the act, but the later act of a comedian's career looks like? Who are the models for you of like, being vital and true into your 60s and 70s and even beyond, if you want?

• 25:51Speaker 03

  I don't know, man, because it all hinges on my ability to be moved to do it. Yeah, I'm not, you know, I, I don't have a system or a way of working. You know, I'm not like Mulaney, I'm not gonna sit there and write down jokes and have the discipline to, you know, you know, just try jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes. Like, I have to be moved to do it. And, you know, my price point and my, you know, cultural relevance on some level as a stand-up is at its own level.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  You know, I do what I do, and I have people that enjoy what I do, but, you know, the world is not waiting for another special. And there's not this machine, you know, around me that is like, you gotta get out there, you know, we've got, you know, a lot of, you know, mouths to feed here.

• 26:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  So, it all hinges on what my creativity will, will, will kind of reveal to me, as opposed to seeing it as a job that has to be refilled.

• 27:02Josh Horowitz?

  But I guess my point is, like, you've seen comedians lose a step, and those that just keep doing it, just to do it.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, but arguably, they all lose a step.

• 27:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  You know, you can't, you can't fight time, you know, you can't, like, I had a conversation with the guy over at CVS, not off-camera, and he's like, "I just wish Eddie Murphy, you know, would do, you know, another stand-up special." I'm like, "Yeah, but there, you, you, there's no winning that."

• 27:27Josh Horowitz?

  He will never be that 19-year-old that just came out in the red leather that has that energy.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  That's right, and he can still be funny, but there's no way, it's like, it's like, you know, watching The Stones.

• 27:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  You know, like, after a certain point, and like, even Seinfeld, you know, like, whatever, I mean, you, he can refill that, you know, whatever the hell he does.

• 27:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:44Speaker 03

  You know, because, you know, you know, you can sleepwalk through it.

• 27:49Josh Horowitz?

  It's its own lane, yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  But there are guys that see it as a job.

• 27:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  And there are guys that see it, you know, and I know it's a job, but I think more like an artist than, you know, than a guy who's got a job as an entertainer.

• 28:03Josh Horowitz?

  Refill the pail just to do it.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, because like, why do that? Like, if there's no risk, or there's no challenge, or there's no, you know, sense of like discovery. Like, there are lines in this special that came to me days before. So I keep it fluid, you know, and everybody sure, they punch stuff up, or they find... But for me, it doesn't start on the paper, really. Like, you know, these things are delivered to me in moments on stage that somehow or another, because of the way I do it, I leave space open for that to happen, for there to be improvisation in, for there to... Because I'm counting on my punchlines to be delivered from wherever in a moment, and eventually they arrive.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Sometimes it takes years for some things. I leave things that open-ended. And I wish I was more just a writer guy. But like, if I write something down, and, you know, you write the punchline, and then you perform the joke, it's almost like, I just did it. Look, here's a live math equation.

• 29:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  Enjoy. So, so there were lines, and I think one of the best lines in the special came days before. You know, and it just happened. And then a tag came in that same zone a few days before. I had a tag in there before that, it was okay. But then it, one just came that like nailed it, and I'm like, okay, well, that's how I work. So, it's hard to count on that.

• 29:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  In a way where it's like, you know, we gotta have this thing next week. I'm like, well, okay, well, I gotta...

• 29:33Josh Horowitz?

  Something will come, but it might not be what I like.

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, but when they do, and they usually do, even in a situation like this, that's what makes it kind of exciting. It's, you know, and then the process of molding it all. So to answer your question...

• 29:50Speaker 03

  I don't know how it ultimately unfolds in terms of what I'm gonna do creatively. In the future, it looks like I'm gonna have to be in a TV show for as long as they need me to be. But I've been playing some music and I don't look at that as a second profession. It was something I always wanted to have confidence in doing in front of people. And I've been doing shows on and off for the last few years with different musicians, performing at Largo and stuff. And the other, last week, I had kind of a breakthrough in that, in being able to be present in my whole self to sing and play with a group of people.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  And that was very exciting and a major creative breakthrough for me. So I'm still open to all that, but I needed to be, I needed to evolve.

• 30:46Josh Horowitz?

  And you're gonna have more space for that. I mean, WTF is a time suck. I mean, as someone that does two podcasts a week, I actually understand very well the cadence of what you do. And I'll say this for the record, I've said this to you before. I mean, no podcast, honestly, has been more influential to me. I mean, we have different styles, but the way you do it, I so admire. Has it sunk in yet that it's over, that it's gonna be over? I mean, this is a life change, not a career change, this is a life change.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's sunk in in the sense that I have to, I've given Brendan, my producer and I, friend of McDonald's, we knew it was coming. So we've kind of set it up so we can have the time to process it. And what comes next is, that's a whole other thing. I have a hard time thinking about, I don't even know what my schedule is for tomorrow, right now. I mean, I kind of do, but I have had to think about taking care of myself in light of more than the job going away, it's just what I get out of the conversations with people

• 31:55Speaker 03

  and how much of that is part of my kind of social and emotional and psychological life, are these conversations. Because they are genuine, they are in the moment, and they do kind of... They're engaged, candid conversations with people that range from very deep to entertaining to whatever, but it is an ingrained part of my social life. So I have to figure out how am I going to get that after the podcast.

• 32:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right, so you don't hide in the garage from society. You need to actually get that.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  Right, so I don't isolate and get too much in my head. But there's support systems that I have and maybe expand my social life a little bit. But there is definitely part of me that is ready to not be done with the time suck because that just becomes second nature, but the emotional exhaustion of engaging my day-to-day life in a full-hearted way and then kind of immersing myself in the people I'm talking to in the way that I do it, as deep as find a portal to find a way to engage in a deep level. That process does deplete you after a certain point.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  And Brendan is also exhausted because he's also very meticulous and all into his process as an audio producer. And we talk to just about everybody and ultimately it just comes down to you don't want to have to get to a point where you're autopiloting any of that. For what? You know, we did good and we've done good. And by stopping it, you kind of guarantee it is looked at as a body of work as opposed to this refillable content that people have grown to rely on and you just kind of sleepwalk through because you can.

• 34:27Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 35:00Josh Horowitz?

  One of the remarkable things, this struck me especially watching this doc. I mean, the last nearly 2,000 episodes, these 16 years, they're a chronicle of your life, too. You put yourself so much into this show. If you go back and listen, you hear friendships being formed, friendships being broken apart, you meeting Lynn. It's kind of an amazing audio diary of your...

• 35:23Speaker 03

  Well, that was always the show, and that's always the way Brendan saw it. Like, despite the fact that other people saw it as an interview show or whatever, Brendan saw it always as a show about me. And that works, because that's also the way I interview. So, it is that. And the thing that becomes challenging about that is that when you're monologuing twice a week about your life, sometimes not a lot happens between Monday and Thursday. And then there's this idea of the parts of me that I want to share, like, what is comedic? What is intense? What is my brain doing? Like, there are some parts of that, if you're not careful, that will stop you from evolving

• 36:08Speaker 03

  or letting yourself really be who you are, which might be quieter. If you're yammering about you all the time, it's hard to share the quieter spaces or whatever things about me have shifted or changed, because I do get into a level of panic about things and intensity. But it does get to a point where we've all grown through this together, and now I've landed in this place that I'd like to keep for myself.

• 36:39Josh Horowitz?

  Is it... I mean, watching that doc, I mean, it's honestly emotional for me and an audience, I think, watching and listening to that conversation with Lynn, for instance.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:48Josh Horowitz?

  I can only imagine for you, I don't know if you'd listened back to it since then, but I assume you've watched the doc, so is that an especially one of your things to listen to?

• 36:59Speaker 03

  What, the one I did after she died?

• 37:01Josh Horowitz?

  No, the original, that too, but like even just like hearing like how you met essentially, I think that was how you met on the 2015 episode, right?

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:09Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, both obviously are hugely.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it's hard, you know, you gotta choose to let that in. I mean, I can hear it and be like, oh, yeah, but like to frame it in what happened or the arc of our relationship. Yeah, it's a lot, but like I can, I can handle it, you know, and

• 37:33Speaker 03

  yeah, there's a lot in that doc that's kind of uncomfortable for me, but, but you know, processing grief and then, you know, holding the line on, you know, how much you want to engage with it, you do get a certain amount of control over that. Like if I let myself, I can go into the deeper sadness, but you know, I just live with that, you can't live in that.

• 37:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Over the years, I would imagine, I mean, like you made the choice repeatedly, I would think over the years, never to do video, like some of us have done for the podcast. I would imagine there were so many offers to turn it into a TV show of some sort. Was it tough to, at any point, did you, did you go down, almost go down another road with what WTF was gonna be?

• 38:17Speaker 03

  No, I, you know, by the time the podcast picked up speed, you know, those shows were already sort of contracting.

• 38:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, as we know.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, but, you know, there was never any, you know, major offer to do an interview show.

• 38:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  And because of the nature of the media landscape, it's like, what offer are you gonna make me that's gonna be better than what I'm already doing?

• 38:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you have full creative control, you're just.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, and we got, it's a good audience, you know, and the video thing is just that, that we are, it's an audio podcast and, you know, we're audio guys. So we, it wasn't not meeting the market or blowing anything, or they should have done this or that, it's not what the show was.

• 38:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  And, and I believe that audio is still the most effective.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  Kind of mode for intimacy.

• 39:08Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  And there was never ever discussion about going video. Even when everyone else is going video, it was not, you know, so you want to set up your own kind of sort of public access looking situation, or, you know, you know, put a little money into it and make it look like a, you know, kind of a well-produced public access situation.

• 39:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  And you want to sit there on video with big clunky SM7s and headsets. It's like, whatever.

• 39:36Josh Horowitz?

  It's all just lowering the bar for everything. Last guest, it's Gallagher's ghost, it's Jon Stewart. Do you have, is it locked in, how you're gonna end this show?

• 39:47Speaker 03

  No, it's not locked in. I assume it'll be just me.

• 39:51Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 39:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, unless Obama wants to pop on.

• 39:56Josh Horowitz?

  For a...

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:58Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, that's probably the only guy that could make us have a guest on the last show. On the acting side, we mentioned bad guys too. We've got Imorium, which is a leading role.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:08Josh Horowitz?

  We've talked a lot on the podcast about the Sharon Stone interaction. I'm excited to see that one.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  It's just one of those things where you do this big thing and then like, you know, the director didn't make the final deadline for the Toronto Festival and now it's in the can, I've seen the final cut, I think I did alright, I think it's a pretty special movie, but now it's like, I had to just wait till next year for Sundance, I'm like, alright, well, I'll just take that out of the front burner area of expectations.

• 40:35Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you have the Avatar sequels you're gonna do. Obviously, we talked about that last time.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  That's so funny, that got such, you know, attention, like, you know, it's like, I will talk shit, you know, and that's one of the fears of not having Brendan McDonald watching my back, you know, at every turn, you know, in terms of saying things publicly. You know, but like, I thought about that, about like, just the ridiculousness of meeting Cameron and everything, but like, some people be like, dude, why are you doing that? It's gonna be bad, bad for what?

• 41:05Josh Horowitz?

  What are you trying to get? What do you need? Like, in that realm, you're not, I mean, you're not trying to get that.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  I don't even know who sees those movies.

• 41:12Josh Horowitz?

  So what... At any memorable auditions in the last couple of years since we've spoken?

• 41:17Speaker 03

  Well, it seems I've gotten past the now you're all for only Mark. Kinda, you know, I kinda am and, you know, I say no to a lot of stuff.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  Because there's, like, it's, I don't know why, you know, but there is just zero desperation or like I, literally, my manager will say to me like, "This script is pretty good. You should really take a look at it." You know, like, two weeks ago, buying it, he's like, "Do you look at this script?" I'm like, "Oh, no." I can't remember, what was that one? You know, I don't, clearly, I'm not hungry for it.

• 41:52Josh Horowitz?

  You tried to back out of the Springsteen. I just listened to you talk about that one.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  That was so funny. That was such a funny moment. It's so stupid.

• 41:59Josh Horowitz?

  Back, yeah, Scott Cooper looking.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  It's like, I can't really explain, like, I have a dread of, like, almost, like, almost everything. And I think, you know, good managers know this and they work within it. Like, I'm gonna just say no to almost everything. Like, where do I gotta drive? You know, like, it really comes down to, like, how long, where, why? What's the part? Like, that sounds ridiculous. No one's gonna see it. Like, there's this whole barrage of reasons to not do something, you know. But my manager, who's actually in the room right now, you know, he knows all this and he'll say, like, "I get it." You know, "No, that makes sense."

• 42:42Speaker 03

  And then I think, like, subconsciously, he just waits for a slight crack in the wall.

• 42:49Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I guess.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  And then he's like, "I can get in there." "I like, but, you know, the food's pretty good."

• 42:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, the food's pretty good.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  But, uh...

• 42:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, Springsteen, but you said, you were saying.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  Well, I'd just done that. It was, like, it was an undertaking. It took a lot for me to believe that I could do a lead and carry a movie. And, you know, I did pretty good. I watched the final cut, but after I shot all that...

• 43:11Josh Horowitz?

  That one, yep.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  You know, I taught, I like Scott Cooper. We text. You know, I'm in touch with him. I'm a big fan. We, yeah. Oddly, this is the full arc of that story, like... So I had this little part, it was, it was not a lot of lines, you know, in the movie.

• 43:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  And I'd just done a lead in a movie.

• 43:29Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  And now I'm supposed to fly to New Jersey to do five lines, so now my manager's got to deal with this shit, which is not unusual either. I'm like, it's like, any actor could do this.

• 43:38Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  This is like, this is entry level acting. I just did a lead in an indie that no one's gonna see. You know, so.

• 43:45Josh Horowitz?

  It's gonna be.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  It might not even make it to theaters, but I did it, you know. So, so I'm like, you know, fuck this, and the manager's like, no, it's alright, yeah, I'll get you out of it. Knowing full well that I would come around somehow, but.

• 44:02Josh Horowitz?

  Why do we do the stance, every time? Why are we doing the stance? You know what's gonna happen.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  No, because sometimes I really mean no, like, I don't give a shit. But there are, there are things that I'm like, I'm just fighting for, for whatever, but, but I just thought, like, really, it, it's, it comes from insecurity, was the, the diva element was not as large as my insecurity. In the sense that like, cause I really felt, cause I had one experience doing a movie that I got cut out of. You know, that, it was that, that Michael Keaton movie about the lawyer for post, you know, nine eleven.

• 44:33Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:34Josh Horowitz?

  I'm blanking, but I got you, yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  Well, no one saw it.

• 44:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  So, but somehow or another, they put me in that movie to play this kinda scrappy lawyer.

• 44:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:41Speaker 03

  And I knew I wasn't right for the part, and I don't know why, or who was doing who a favor, or why the fuck.

• 44:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  They wanted me, so I'm sitting in a quarter trailer, that's a closet, in a shitty suit, you know, for the whole day to do a scene that, they could have hired a day, but do, do the guy, the New York actor a favor. They're just not, they're all just waiting for law and orders. So give them the movie, you know, like, there's a guy that looks like this guy.

• 45:04Josh Horowitz?

  The guy that's excited for this, that's actually.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  That is this guy.

• 45:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  It's a character actor part, and I'm like, I'm not that guy. So.

• 45:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you're like, wait, is that Marc Maron in that scene?

• 45:15Speaker 03

  There wasn't, it was like, is that Marc Maron on the phone call that they made the scene, you know?

• 45:19Josh Horowitz?

  His shoulder, yeah.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  Right, right, so, so with the, with the, deliver me from nowhere thing, no, it's just sort of like, you know, they can cast a guy that's gonna inhabit this better, and it's a, it's a small part.

• 45:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  And, and also I was sort of like, you know, there's nothing for me to do with this. So I tell this to my manager and he's like, "Well, we'll get you out of it." And then I'm like, "You know, alright, hold on, let me just think." So I hang up from him and then I text Cooper. Like, I mean, who the fuck does that? It's a big director, you know, it's like, you know, I know him well enough, but like, I text him. You know, I'm like, "Hey dude, I'm just getting back into the script, doesn't look like there's a lot for me to do here." Uh, am I wrong? He's like, "But the director." So he texts back, he goes, "Uh, no dude, I get it, you know, uh, it's fine, you know, uh, you know, we'll work together in the future." "I just thought it would be fun." And then like, right when he texts back and I read that, I'm like, "Alright." "No, I'll do it." He didn't ask, he didn't impress it.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  It wasn't even a negotiation, I just needed attention, I guess. No, you're right, I'll do it. But the idea that I thought it would be fun, you like, I never look at things like that. If it even occurred to you, that fun might be a part of the equation. Someone just asked me if it was Comic Con fun, I'm like, "What are you talking about?" How was, you know, what, it's something I had to do. Was it flying on the plane with all those, those people fun? No, no!

• 46:43Speaker 03

  It's not that it's not fun, but it's something, you know, apparently I have to do. They had nuts, it was fun. I don't even think they had nuts. I'm sorry. And then on the way back, like, you know, after we'd spent the whole day at Comic Con, they served us food on the plane on a 30-minute flight, and I'm a vegan, everyone's getting these little sandwiches. She gives me a salad the size of a piece of luggage with chickpeas and shit, and I'm like, "What am I supposed to do?" "Are we serving the whole plane?" Who's the caterer that, that put this together? But, but it was fun.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  The flight and the movie. No, no, no. The flight wasn't, the movie was. Okay, good, good, good. It was fun, because it was, um, because Scott's great. And, you know, there's just a funny kind of thing with it all. Uh, that we shot in the studio where they did Nebraska, where they were trying to do Nebraska. So it's a studio they worked in. The guy I'm playing is a real guy, Chuck Plotkin is that his name? I fucked up his name somewhere. And Jeremy Strong's there. And Bruce is there. Well, that's the thing. John Landau is Jeremy Strong. And Jeremy Allen Light is Springsteen. And Walter Hauser was there. Oh, Paul Walter Hauser. Paul Walter Hauser was there because he had a little part, so he's around, you know, trying to get laughs every three minutes.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  He's just one of those guys on sets that are always going to do the, you know, try to do the riffing. Right, right. But he's a great guy. Yeah, yeah. And he is pretty funny. But he's very funny. I like him. I don't want that. The Paul Walter Hauser feud. You don't need new feuds in your life. No, there's not. He's very nice and we text. He's a sweet guy and he's a great actor and he's very funny. But the thing was, is that, a couple of things was... Well, first, you know, I didn't have, I had to act like I knew how to run a board. I was an engineer, a sound engineer. And also Cooper really laid it out to me that, well, there may not be a lot of lines here, but he's pivotal to the story. Right.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  You know, he's the guy that figures out how to solve this problem. And I'm like, okay, that's good. But I had to figure out how to, you know, work the board and I talked to the guy who worked at the studio, one of the engineers, and we kind of nailed that. And then I tell Cooper, I'm like, hey, man, you know, there's not a lot of footage on this guy. He's a real guy. Right. So I don't know what you want me to do with that. I don't have a point, a source to do him. Yeah. He goes, don't worry about it. I'm like, really? Okay, yeah, I'm just, I'll just get the knobs going. And we do the first scene, and that's in Bruce and John Landau, the real Bruce and the real John Landau, or in Video Village the whole fucking time. And, you know, I know Bruce because I went to his house. Yeah. And he remembers me because I, you know, I make an impression sometimes.

• 49:21Speaker 03

  But it gave me a shorthand with him, like he, you know, this familiarity. So that was kind of interesting. After every, you know, cut, you know, he could be like, I'm going to go hang out with Bruce. And it gave me a new appreciation for Landau, like in terms of like the shit he gets for working the way he gets. He did something kind of amazing on set that really is a testament to the work of a real actor in terms of the pursuit of truth part about it. But nonetheless, so I do my first speaking part, point with the knobs and I was talking and I was like, you know, Bruce is out there and I'm like, you know, I got no idea who this guy is. So I do the knobs and I do the talking and cut and I go out and right when I walk in the video village, Bruce goes, "You're him! You're Chuck!" And I'm like, "Well, that's coincidental."

• 50:07Speaker 03

  I didn't let on, but I'm like, "Okey dokey."

• 50:10Josh Horowitz?

  I've been working those knobs for six months, Bruce. You didn't know I've been training.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, but like that I, that he bought the personality of it, which, you know, whatever. I just figured he's kind of a nerd. He's working for Bruce. He's got a specific job. He's not gonna be bombastic.

• 50:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  But Jeremy was kind of interesting, you know, to, it was just a really interesting thing, cuz he's in it.

• 50:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:29Speaker 03

  He does the thing where he's like locked into John Landau. And it was good for him to have Landau out there to ask questions. But he'll talk to you as Jeremy, but just in Landau's body.

• 50:38Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  It's almost like, you know, Jeremy's inside Landau's body and he can access Jeremy to have a conversation, you know?

• 50:44Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, yeah, it's like TDL as Lincoln, but still ordering the Starbucks as Lincoln.

• 50:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, kinda, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he'll talk to you, but it'll be Landau. But he'll talk, he'll, he'll speak as Jeremy. But, um, but he did this, he had this moment in the room that was kinda interesting. He's always thinking and, you know, he's in it, and he's really in it, and he's really in it. And, you know, this process of trying to solve this problem in the studio was an ongoing process for a long time. And at some point, you know, you know, he's always kind of like, you know, should I do, you know, talking to Scott? "I think I should be over here." You know, he's very engaged with the reality of it. And at some point, he just goes, "Hey, wait, wait, wouldn't there be empty food containers around? They've been in here a long time, like, you know, food takeout, wouldn't there be food containers?"

• 51:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  And then all of a sudden, I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me? Are we ever gonna get through this tape?" But, but, yeah, but... But Scott servicing the actor, you know, is sort of like, I don't, that's a good question. You know, just indulging him. And I wasn't frustrated with it, but I was like, alright, okay, so this is, you're gonna deal with this. But the truth of the matter is, you know, they went and asked, you know, Jeremy Strong goes up, we did cuts and we're all in video. Jeremy's like, wouldn't you guys have, food containers around Bruce is like, oh yeah, for sure. And then Jeremy's like, what would you guys be eating? You know, and he's like, roast chicken and sweet potatoes. And I'm like, that's pretty specific. So then like, then there's that moment, it's like, alright, so Jeremy's right, we're gonna do this.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  And all I could think is like, some PA is being dispatched. You gotta just get fine with sweet potatoes. You can't, you just roast chicken and sweet potatoes. No, he's gotta find, so that guy's running around New York going, calling, you know, different places on his phone for sweet potatoes. But, but the reality of the frame, you know, was changed because of it.

• 52:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:31Speaker 03

  You know, and you know, set deck, I don't know if you've been on movie sets.

• 52:34Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  A lot of times you get to a, a, a set and it's just loaded up with shit. You know, there are pencils, there are, you know, like, all this stuff in containers.

• 52:44Josh Horowitz?

  Too much, yeah.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you, but it doesn't read as anything other than that looks lived in. But when you're sitting there, it's like, why is this snow globe here and a sandwich?

• 52:51Josh Horowitz?

  There's a story to the snow globe.

• 52:53Speaker 03

  There's not, it's just set deck.

• 52:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  Dude, and we're all just trying to justify our jobs, our existence. But I, I think like, you know, it's, when it's specific, you know, like, I think that the food containers changed his sense of, and in deepened the reality of the environment, I think, probably on screen and for Jeremy to, to, you know, find the truth in this character.

• 53:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I'm gonna look for the.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  And I was just sitting there like.

• 53:21Josh Horowitz?

  I'll be looking for that and the sweet potatoes in the scene. A couple of quick things, so going forward acting wise, I just, I caught up with Bob Odenkirk over a Comic Con. What's your action movie franchise? I feel like that's your next thing.

• 53:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:34Josh Horowitz?

  Just like, I mean, you're ripped, we know that.

• 53:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'd probably be a better like, you know, sidekick to the action guy.

• 53:40Josh Horowitz?

  Don't, don't diminish. Broadway, is that of interest, is theater?

• 53:45Speaker 03

  I thought it was, but it's a lot of time, man. You know, you gotta workshop this and that, like, I mean, look, you know. Maybe that becomes more possible if anybody has the desire to have me do that without the podcast. Yeah, within the schedule I've been working on for the last 15, 16 years, I think Broadway would have been a stretch. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because no matter what movie I did or where I was in the world, we were delivering two new shows a week and I was recording either interviews or intros in hotel rooms and what, like, there was a way that Brendan and I were able to work around things because the podcast was the priority.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  That was the primary gig and that took precedence over anything else. So what I am available for, what interests me in terms of being able to take the time, if I can separate from my cats long enough to do something like that, there was sort of this idea of, because, look, I'm not a star at the level those guys are. You know, like, you're gonna have a bunch of guys, you know, Burr's gonna do, you know, Glengarry, whatever. I totally could have seen you in that ensemble, though. There's no reason that you couldn't see me in it, but no one's gonna look to me to generate ticket sales for that. Okay, alright. You know, maybe, maybe I'm talking out of insecurity, but like, I kinda know from experience that no one's like, this guy's a guaranteed moneymaker. Right.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  Let's make him the lead of this. Or put him in the ensemble. You know, like, I don't, whatever. I don't know if that's insecurity or reality, but insecurity. But, yeah. So, well, maybe, we'll see. I mean, you know, stick is like, one of the reasons I did it was to, to heighten visibility on some level. Yeah. And, you know, and show up in a way that I haven't before. But the time it takes to, like, I think there was a moment there where I was, like, you know, offered a new play, but, you know, it's like, we're gonna workshop it in Chicago for four weeks and I'm like... That's a long haul. And then like, to do the memorization thing and all that shit. I mean, you gotta really lock into that. You can't have too many distractions with that. You and your buddy Tracy Watts. Oh, I'd love to do, I'd do, I'd do anything with Tracy. Alright. I wish I could work with Tracy. I'd be in one of his plays.

• 55:59Speaker 03

  I'd like to act with him. He's a very, he's a very funny actor, too. He's the best. God, him, that scene in the fucking... Oh, Ford for, for... Oh, yeah, in the Corvette. Come on.

• 56:10Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 56:11Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna end with this. Happy second fuse profoundly random questions. I know, I know the answers to a few of these, but indulge me. Dogs or cats?

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Cats, I have, yeah, I have cats. I don't have anything against dogs, but they're just too needy for me.

• 56:25Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect? I think I know some of these too. What's, what are the main things you collect?

• 56:30Speaker 03

  Lately?

• 56:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Whenever.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  Well, I seem to be, like, I don't think in terms of collecting, I think in terms of having. So like, I'm not, you know, like, I, if I get obsessed with a band or something like that, you know, I'll buy all their records or whatever. I, I think that over the years lately, I've amassed a lot of records. I amass things. I don't collect too many things. Like, I, I, I think if there's one thing I collect, it seems to be Ganeshia statues. But in terms of like getting things, hopefully for free or through barter, I've amassed a lot of records. I have more guitars than I need, but I don't buy them that often. I try to get them for free and then play them. Uh, but there's a lot of things that need, that are on their way out. But as far as consciously buying things that I seem to collect but not amass,

• 57:19Speaker 03

  it seems to be Ganeshia statues of one shape, of one size or another.

• 57:23Josh Horowitz?

  I feel like clothing, sometimes you talk a little bit about different like...

• 57:26Speaker 03

  But those aren't collections. I'm obsessed with a few boots.

• 57:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  Like, there's definitely things I wear over and over again. There's things I commit to, uh, and have a, a, a certain amount of them, but it's not like I have ninety pairs of boots.

• 57:41Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, good, fair enough. You don't strike me as a video game guy, but do you have a favorite video game of all time? Anything you've ever played?

• 57:47Speaker 03

  No, what, modern?

• 57:48Josh Horowitz?

  No, I mean, literally, childhood, could be Pac-Man, I don't know, anything.

• 57:51Speaker 03

  No, I was never a Pac-Man guy. You know, we were pretty into Space Invaders at the bowling alley when it first came out. And Asteroids. But I never like, like nerded into them enough to know how to turn over the, the system. You know, there were those guys that figured out, you know, that, you know, exactly how you could go through all the levels. Galaga, I, you know, Galaga, I used to play in college at the sub place across from where I lived. I liked Galaga. Is that how you say it, Galaga?

• 58:19Josh Horowitz?

  I, I do go Gauga, but Galaga sounds like the European, like, classier version.

• 58:22Speaker 03

  The Russian version. Galaga. I only played the Russian machine. The guys who owned the sub shop were Ukrainian, I think.

• 58:30Josh Horowitz?

  Dakota Johnson asked me this, I ask everybody.

• 58:32Speaker 03

  Can you ask her if she would, you know, marry me?

• 58:36Josh Horowitz?

  You have a significant other.

• 58:38Speaker 03

  I know, but this is fantasy.

• 58:40Josh Horowitz?

  Fantasy. Do you like your fan?

• 58:42Speaker 03

  Huh?

• 58:42Josh Horowitz?

  You're a fan of her work?

• 58:43Speaker 03

  I love her.

• 58:44Josh Horowitz?

  She's great.

• 58:44Speaker 03

  I talked to her dad, but it wasn't appropriate for me to like, hey, could I get the number?

• 58:50Josh Horowitz?

  I could make this magic happen for you.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  And Hathaway and Dakota Johnson.

• 58:54Josh Horowitz?

  Those are yours? Okay.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  But Hathaway's married and, yeah, I have somebody, but like, you know, for Dakota, I rethink a lot.

• 59:03Speaker 03

  Maybe there's too big an age gap. Doesn't necessarily stop.

• 59:06Josh Horowitz?

  It's okay. She asked me this. Let's see if your crush remains after you hear this question. Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 59:15Speaker 03

  What? One bee in your butt?

• 59:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 59:17Speaker 03

  Who the fuck wants a mouthful of bees?

• 59:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 03

  That sounds like a disaster.

• 59:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, I agree. What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 59:24Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 59:26Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have a phone?

• 59:26Speaker 03

  Yes, you do. I think it's just a regular... Yeah, it's just...

• 59:30Josh Horowitz?

  You've got just like space, like just like black?

• 59:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't get too deep into this.

• 59:34Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough.

• 59:35Speaker 03

  I have a dead cat on my computer, though.

• 59:38Josh Horowitz?

  Oh. One of yours, I hope, not just the same as yours.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was one of mine, yeah.

• 59:41Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, good. Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 59:47Speaker 03

  Who do I get?

• 59:49Josh Horowitz?

  You ever sign someone else's autograph being presented?

• 59:51Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no. A lot of people aren't sure who I am. People used to think I looked like Spielberg a lot. Occasionally, if I'm pretty shaved, you know, there's a Robert Downey thing, but I don't get mistaken for too many people. I think oddly, I think I'm like, Bono's starting to look a little like me.

• 1:00:10Josh Horowitz?

  Bono's looking like you, or you're looking like Bono?

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  No, I think he's looking like me, because he looked different when he was younger, but now older.

• 1:00:16Josh Horowitz?

  He was Robin Williams younger. That was the biopic that never happened.

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Josh Horowitz?

  Worst noted director has ever given you?

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  I don't know, man. I don't really remember that stuff.

• 1:00:29Josh Horowitz?

  Anything particularly unhelpful that you hate hearing?

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  It'll be okay.

• 1:00:36Josh Horowitz?

  Because it won't.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  I think it's helpful, but I know that it's sort of like, all right, well, that's as good as you're gonna do.

• 1:00:43Josh Horowitz?

  And in the spirit of happy second fuse, an actor who always makes you happy, you see them on screen, you're instantly happier.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  George Clooney.

• 1:00:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah? Movie that makes you sad?

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  Oh, so many of them make me sad.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  These are always hard questions for me because a movie that makes me sad.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  Like a classic?

• 1:01:11Josh Horowitz?

  It could be anything.

• 1:01:12Speaker 03

  Name some sad movies.

• 1:01:13Josh Horowitz?

  Terms of Endearment, Cinema Paradiso, I don't know, It's a Wonderful Life.

• 1:01:21Speaker 03

  Black Mirrors make me sad.

• 1:01:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  That's one of the most recent ones.

• 1:01:26Josh Horowitz?

  That works. And a food that makes you confused, Mark. You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  Oh, you know, I'm not big on tripe.

• 1:01:40Josh Horowitz?

  Controversial statement.

• 1:01:42Speaker 03

  Because like I can, like, I've been plant-based for a couple of years, but like, it's just even the way it looks like in in pho or in pho, when you get the soup and they're like, you know, you want all of it? The weird Vietnamese meatballs and the tripe and the brisket that just slabs of fat? Do you want the whole thing? The tripe, like, I'll eat the other stuff, but the tripe is sort of like, oh, I can see it's just little rings of intestines.

• 1:02:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, squiggly little, yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  But I understand the texture thing, but it's still like, is it necessary? There's no flavor to it. Even calamari, it's like, what is the?

• 1:02:15Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, but like, the best calamari can be like, oh, this is like fresh because it's softer than it usually is.

• 1:02:21Josh Horowitz?

  Sometimes check texture is enough. Sometimes that's.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  No, I agree, but it's also like giant clam and sushi. There's something about that texture.

• 1:02:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:28Speaker 03

  The kind of crunchy, chewy, like, I don't know.

• 1:02:31Josh Horowitz?

  Not for me. We're gonna go watch Avatar, eat some tripe, Mark and I now.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 1:02:36Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations on many fronts. Let's, let's run it down. Bad Guys 2 panicked, most importantly, on HBO, HBO Max, I'm sure any HBO that exists in the world. Check it out. Are We Good? Hopefully in the next few months.

• 1:02:49Speaker 03

  October, maybe, yeah.

• 1:02:50Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. And look, a personal level, as I said before, WTF, so important to me, so important to so many others. Enjoy the last lap of it and, and thank you for everything you've contributed, Mark.

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  Thanks, buddy. Good talking to you.

• 1:03:03Josh Horowitz?

  Good to see you.

• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.

• 1:03:25Speaker 06

  As wish lists grow, you know where to go. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro and more. Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Baumann, Clinique or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in-store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty.