WEDNESDAY creators Al Gough & Miles Millar

Whether it's Superman or Spider-Man or Wednesday Addams, Miles Millar and Al Gough have made a career of giving their unique take on iconic characters. Here they join Josh to chat about SMALLVILLE, SPIDER-MAN 2, WEDNESDAY, their early script for IRON MAN, and more! UPCOMING EVENTS! August 13th -- John Turturro in New York! -- Get your tickets here! August 14th -- The Thursday Murder Club with Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan, Ben Kingsley, & Chris Columbus in New York! ⁠-- Get your tickets here! August 15th -- Ben Stiller & Seth Rogen LIVE in Los Angeles -- ⁠⁠Get your tickets here ⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, today on Happy Sad Confused, we have the brains behind Wednesday, Spider-Man 2, Smallville, and so many other projects from the last few decades. Miles Millar and Algoth on Happy Sad Confused today. Hey guys, I'm Josh. Thanks as always for checking out the podcast today. Another fun one with, as I said, these guys have been doing it for a minute and they have really navigated the industry well, thanks to their perseverance and talent. Miles Millar, Algoth. These might be, look, on Happy Sad Confused, we have a lot of like huge names, recognizable names, like these might not be the first names that ring a bell, but you certainly know the things that they have written, the stuff that they have showrun, their series and films.

• 1:52Josh Horowitz?

  Their current project is the second season of Wednesday. They are the showrunners behind this phenomenal success story.

• 2:02Josh Horowitz?

  Led by Jenna Ortega, directed by the great Tim Burton. And I think you guys are going to really dig this conversation. They have all the stories. They have been through it. Sure, we talk about Wednesday and working with Jenna and Tim. But these guys wrote the initial story for Spider-Man 2. That's right, like one of the all time great Spider-Man films. They've got the dirt on that. They have the stories behind Iron Man. They wrote a screenplay for Iron Man back when it was supposed to be a Tom Cruise vehicle. Stories there. They also created Smallville, which I know many people in my life were or are obsessed with Smallville.

• 2:47Josh Horowitz?

  We talk a lot about that. It's newfound relevancy thanks to the new Superman film. They're meeting with, they're near meeting with Michael Jackson about a project, writing for Jackie Chan. So much cool stuff. Like I said, these guys have the stories. Miles Malar, Al Goff, a great conversation on Happy Sad Confused today. Briefly, I'll mention as always, lots of events coming up, actually, some of which are sold out, some are not. But I'll list them nonetheless. All this information, check out our Patreon, patreon.com/happysadconfused. Early access, discount codes, merch, all the good stuff. If you love what I do over there, go over there and try to support us if you can.

• 3:29Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, in quick succession, New York City, August 13th. If you're listening to this before then, you still have a shot to come out and see me and John Turturro. Very excited about this. He's never done the pod before, talking about Severance, but also this is a career chat. And I'm going to dig into Spike Lee films, the Coen Brothers movies. There's too much to talk about, but we're going to jam a lot in. August 13th, New York City, tickets are available for that, 92nd Street Y. Link is in the show notes. August 14th, this one might be sold out, but you can, you can see if there are tickets available again through the 92nd Street Y, but actually at the Paris Theater in New

• 4:09Josh Horowitz?

  York City, we are screening Thursday Murder Club, which is the new Netflix movie. Get a load of this panel. Pierce Brosnan, Helen Mirren, Ben Kingsley, Chris Columbus, all sitting down the chat. That's pretty damn cool. Um, as I said, there might, I'm not sure if there are tickets available. The last one is the longest shot, but we are hopefully going to release a few tickets as we get closer. August 15th, Los Angeles, here I come. Seth Rogen, Ben Stiller. This one's sold out in about a day. So we'll see if some last minute tickets come available. Keep your eyes and ears peeled, but that's going to be a hell of a night. That's it. A lot coming up. Lot more to come. That's

• 4:54Josh Horowitz?

  just the stuff I can announce. Yeah. Anyway, all right, let's get to it. If you are, oh, by the way, these guys also wrote Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Tim's return to that franchise. So we talked about that too. So if you're a nerd like me that loves comic book movies, Beetlejuice, Superman, Iron Man, all the stuff, Addams Family, you're going to take this one. Miles Millar, Miles is the one with the British accent for the record, and Al Goff. Um, great conversation. Two great, great guys and talented writers. Please enjoy.

• 5:28Josh Horowitz?

  Miles, Al, thank you so much for taking the time today. I was just talking to you guys unofficially off camera that I'm big fans of your work. There's a lot to talk about Wednesday and decades of contributions to pop culture. So thanks for the time today, guys. I appreciate it.

• 5:45Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me.

• 5:46Speaker 05

  Yes, it's great to be here. Yeah.

• 5:47Josh Horowitz?

  So who has quit this relationship most over the years? Who said, that's it? I've had enough. We're done. Who's the drama, who's the drama queen in the pair? Let's get that out of the way.

• 5:59Speaker 04

  It's been shockingly, I would say, drama free. You know, we've been, we've been partners for over, over 30 years. And as you know, because your brother's in a partnership that, that they, you know, but, but it's very interesting because sometimes Miles and I will run into people who used to be partners and it's like, it's like running into like divorced couples. It's like, oh, they were partners in the nineties.

• 6:22Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, is the working

• 6:23Speaker 05

  It's weird.

• 6:24Josh Horowitz?

  Is the working relationship essentially unchanged? Like, have you had to kind of make adjustments over the years of the way you work with each other? Or is it kind of, if I talked to you 25 years ago, was it essentially the same way you work?

• 6:36Speaker 04

  I, I think, I think sort of spiritually, it's the same. Logistically, as you know, with, with, with life, it's got, we used to write together in, in Miles's apartment when we first started every day. You know, we would go and, you know, work from like nine to six, nine to seven. And, and sort of back in the, back in the early days. And then as it sort of evolved, we don't, we always are together when we, when we break the stories and, and do all of that. But then sometimes just given the logistics of television and show running, you know, we, we'll, it's a little, it's different.

• 7:12Speaker 05

  Divide and conquer. Yeah, it's definitely been an evolution in terms of that. And the complexity of these shows has just become much more extreme. You know, in our Smallville days, it was very much, we're in the writers' room together, breaking, you know, 22 stories a season. This is really like breaking eight movies and then making them, which is like the, just the scale of production is just so much bigger. So I think we've, we've really, you have to get this divide and conquer approach and, and it's been very effective for us. And I don't know if people do it just with one person because it's like, it's just, the scale of work is just phenomenal.

• 7:50Josh Horowitz?

  Well, yeah, and you're getting at something I want to start with. We're gonna start with Wednesday, which is obviously entering its second season. Congratulations, guys. I've seen the first four.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 7:59Josh Horowitz?

  Broken up into two parts. And, look, yes, you're not having to do the 22 or 24 episodes, whatever you were doing of Smallville and other shows back in the day. You're doing eight, which might not sound like a lot, but the level of production design, of filmmaking, of craft, is just, you are making movies. You're essentially making movies here. So, does it kind of all even out in the wash, even though you're doing a third of the amount of episodes? Is it, in a way, just as much, if not more, work than that kind of old model?

• 8:30Speaker 05

  Oh, I think it's much more, much more work. Yeah, it's just, I think also, it's like, the job of a network showrunner, someone doing like a Smallville, is really, you're in command of the writers' frame, and you're then, you have obviously input into everything else, and you oversee it all. But just the level of, of, of patience and, and leadership that's needed to run a show like this is just nothing like we've experienced before. So, it's really all-consuming. And it's only, it's only eight episodes, but it actually, I mean, it's just, each episode takes, you know, 30-plus more days to make, and we're in the nine months of the year making it, which is the same, the same length of time we do for 22.

• 9:16Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, it must be rewarding, hugely rewarding. Not, not, look, obviously, it has touched the zeitgeist, and it's obviously resonating with millions and millions of people. But, like, also, to get all the bells and whistles, to get someone like Tim Burton directing some episodes, to get, again, the production designers, the music budget. I can't imagine the music budget on this show. It probably dwarfs some of the other shows you've worked on. Is that fair to say?

• 9:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  It definitely is, you know, and it's, it's, as Miles said, it's, it's just a much bigger production because you know, when you, you know, back in the day when you did 22, you, most of them were going to be in your batting average, right? But then you were going to have some that were great and some, no matter how hard you tried, were going to suck, you know? But here, when you're making eight, like, they all have to be great and there's not an excuse not to be.

• 10:07Josh Horowitz?

  There's no.

• 10:07Speaker 05

  No, they're all going to be, you know, great. That's it.

• 10:11Speaker 04

  And, and you know, back then too, you were, you were kind of, you know, fighting against the other shows in your time slot. Now you're literally up against every show that's ever existed.

• 10:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And the bar has been raised all around in every conceivable way. Um, like I said, I, I'm digging the new season. I love any show that, I think in the first episode of the new season, Wednesday says something to the effect of, I'm heading to the Junior Embalmers convention in Kansas City. That's when, that's when I, I knew you had my heart. Like, I was like, okay, I'm in. Like, this, this is, this is speaking to me. Is, is there, it must be so joyful to write that character in particular. The deadpan, the dark, twisted sense of humor. Um, is it fair to say that's one of the most enjoyable characters in your career you've had a chance to write for?

• 10:57Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, absolutely. And, and also, you know, in some, in some ways, the trickiest too, because, you know, she does things not for the reasons that a normal, quote unquote, you know, hero in a, in a television series would do it. She's not doing it to really save, save lives or to help the world. You know what I mean? She ends up doing those things, but that's not her intention. You know, hers is all about, you know, curiosity and solving something because she's the best to do it. And, you know, she's the, she's the smartest person in the room, even though sometimes she's not, you know, there, there's sort of.

• 11:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's proven that, proven that she's right. You know, that's a lot of it. It's like, it's kind of like, there's a lot of ego there. But it is, sometimes you fall into, into sort of story and narrative tropes with her, which is you go to like, oh yeah, she would, she wouldn't do that. Most protagonists would, but she wouldn't. So it's just, it's really like, she keeps you honest, which I think is really, really fun as writers to, to, uh, it's a challenge, you know? So we, she's hugely enjoyable, but she's also a challenge.

• 11:59Josh Horowitz?

  I'd love to talk a little bit about the genesis of the show, the reference points for you guys in creating this show. Like, obviously, look, you have. Addams Family, the cartoons, the films, which were fantastic back in the day. But also, I really feel like this show is in communication with a lot of pop culture, a lot of cinema history, a lot of reference points. I was saying to you before, like, I see stuff like referencing, you know, Catherine Zeta-Jones' work in Zorro or Vertigo. I mean, for me, maybe I'm dating myself, but like, I know people reference like Harry Potter. I remember like young Sherlock Holmes and I'm watching this and I'm like, this reminds me of that. What were the kind of touchstones for you guys as you were crafting your pitch for this?

• 12:43Speaker 04

  Well, I think it was all of those things, you know, because what's interesting about the Addams Family is that you had the panels, you know, from the Charles Addams cartoons, and they didn't even have names until the television show in the 60s. Like, he didn't even name them. And then the TV show, and to really an extent, the films and even some of the animated things, it's kind of a sitcom premise where the Addams Family are kind of a block and it's somebody from the outside coming in and trying to steal their money or pull some scam or con on them and then ultimately getting hoisted on their own petard. And sort of our approach was they can still be a family who, well, it's a couple of things. They could still be a family who love each other, but it doesn't mean they don't have family drama or family conflict.

• 13:28Speaker 04

  But the real genesis was, we were like, Wednesday Addams is a great character, but what would she be like as a teenager? And what if she went to high school? You know, and again, kind of in a way like Smallville, how do we tell a chapter that hasn't been told in this character's life? And then the more we thought about it, we're like, well, she just, you know, cut through a regular high school in five minutes, which is, guess what? The first five minutes of the show. So, and when you look at the Charles Addams cartoons, there's these other characters in there in the background. So we're like, okay, so there's this other world of people, of oddities, of outcasts.

• 14:07Speaker 05

  And creatures. I mean, he has a lot of like little creatures in his work as well. So it's like, oh, that's interesting. It's like a lot of unexplored that was like sort of inspiring too.

• 14:17Speaker 04

  And so we, so we kind of was like, what if we put her in the, in a school of outcasts? And even in that school, she was the most outcast.

• 14:25Josh Horowitz?

  So you, correct me if I'm wrong, you, you, you pitched your take on this. This predates Tim's involvement, Tim Burton's involvement?

• 14:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. Oh yeah, by, by years.

• 14:36Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow. Okay. So, and then obviously Jenna's as well. Talk to me a little bit about Tim coming on board, helping establishing. I know, look, he is one of the preeminent visual artists of my lifetime, our lifetimes. Were most of his notes in that realm on, in terms of the visuals, like, or the creative as well? What was that kind of relationship like in the first season and even in this season?

• 14:58Speaker 05

  He came in, he came in, um, we'd already written the script and actually broken the season and I had other scripts as well. And he basically loved the script. So in terms of changes to the script, there was an idea he had in the first episode where the family is going to, because it's sad to him and his family, they were in the car and they were singing a song. So we had that Royal Boston song as they go to Nevermore. So that was something he, he inspired, but it was really, and then the design of the hide creature was something that we really struggled with. And we really wanted to some, create something that was iconic and sort of a signature.

• 15:41Speaker 05

  And he was like very, we got a lot of like concept artists and designs and nothing really was hitting the mark. Nothing felt original. I think there's actually a sort of, everything in the, all the creatures of the moment feel like they're from Stranger Things. They all have some sort of like weird flower mouth. So we were very focused on not doing that.

• 16:01Speaker 05

  And literally he did this tiny, like literally it's like a silhouette with a pencil of this, of this like punched side creature. And then he gave that to some of the concept guys. They didn't get it. Then we get this call where like two weeks away from production. Tim's at his house. He was this, guys, you gotta come over. I've done something. We go into his his study and he's done this amazing watercolor of the hide. And it is literally like what it is in the show. It was like, and he goes, what do you think? He was really like, I'm not sure. It's like, this is incredible. Um, and it was just like, it reached a point where he had to like, just do it himself. So that's what you, you know, was just like, oh yeah, we got the perfect Tim Burton creature in the show. Um, monster rather.

• 16:46Speaker 05

  And it was just like, yeah. So he's definitely, you know, it's been a really great collaboration in terms of of the look and the design and all those different elements. And obviously he works very closely with Colleen Atwood, who's this, you know, multi Oscar winning costume designer. So she brings an incredible amount of sort of the legacy of Tim to the show. I mean, I think always think about, uh, Luisa Weems and Gretlen Christie's character in the first season. Um, and just like that homage to the Hitchcockian heroines like Tippi Hedren. And that's the sort of like, so it's, I mean, the, the show is infused with film references and things like that, that, um, we all, I mean, I think

• 17:30Speaker 05

  Alan, I and Tim are huge cinephiles and movie buffs. So I think that's something that's, that's like, it's a great playground, the show to explore that element.

• 17:45Speaker 00

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• 18:15Speaker 06

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• 18:48Josh Horowitz?

  You also have a cinephile, maybe an unlikely one, given her age, in Jenna Ortega, who I've chatted with a bunch and maybe has better film knowledge than I do, and I'm twice her age. I mean, she's obviously an amazing acting talent, but like a true student, like of cinema, of music. She's, I believe, is she an EP this season on the show?

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Yes, this is the season, yeah.

• 19:11Josh Horowitz?

  So, obviously, I would think, you know, has a seat at the table, has creative input. What's been, what's it been like to kind of collaborate with her, especially in the second season, of what she wanted to kind of make a mark with as a creative influence on the show?

• 19:27Speaker 04

  Well, we've always, I mean, even in season one, you know, when she was cast, you know, we'd had the scripts written and we gave her the scripts to get her notes and her, and her feedback on. So I think when the show's called Wednesday and You're Wednesday, you've always had a seat at the table. Some of it gets a little more, more formalized.

• 19:42Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 19:43Speaker 04

  And I think, I think with, I mean, what she brought, certainly what she brought to the character was the whole, you know, the walk, the not blinking, like she really did a deep dive in terms of how she wanted to play Wednesday.

• 19:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:56Speaker 04

  And, you know, she, she comes with all of that to the table. So she's made really strong, and she makes really strong, interesting choices as an actor. I mean, that, that's the thing. Even when you're like watching the, you know, watching her shoot or watching her in a scene, it's just like, wow, she just brings things to it, you know, that are great. You know, she's sort of always, is always thinking about it. And I think what she also has, which again is rare, is she has sort of a 360 view of things. So when she's on set, she's watching all of it and she's taking it all in and she's absorbing it. So I think, I think, you know, and, you know, she sits in the production meeting, she does all of that stuff, she gives, you know, and she'll give notes on, on, on various

• 20:38Speaker 04

  things and have her input, which is, you know, which is great. So, and again, is, you know, with, with a television show, it's always, especially actors, it's, you're always in conversation with them. You know, movies are kind of like a party. Everybody comes, you shoot for three months and you're gone. You know, but a television show is an ongoing thing. And in this case, it's been five years, you know, since, since.

• 20:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And we always welcome, and this is something, you know,

• 21:01Speaker 05

  Different showrunners and creators have different ideas of what that relationship is between actors and writers. But for us, it's like it's that conversation outside. It's like we really embrace the idea of hearing their ideas and giving them ownership of the character and making sure, you know, that they're comfortable and that they feel heard. So I think that's something that we've always embraced, you know, and that it's important that everyone is respected and everyone has, you know, a voice. So that's something that, you know, we always sit down with them and talk about what our intention is for the season. We always break the season and then say, hey, what do you think of this? And get feedback and ideas from them. So it's, it's, it's, it's just, there has to be a lot of communication. That's, that's the thing.

• 21:45Speaker 05

  You've got to keep talking and making sure everyone's happy and seeing good about what they're doing.

• 21:51Josh Horowitz?

  So as you look at this next batch of eight episodes, as I said, I've seen the first four. What are you proud of stuff? I mean, I would expect, look, the first season is a big swing, but given the success of the first season, I would imagine you have even more license to take a bigger swing. And certainly you've brought in some amazing new guest stars. You have the likes of Steve Buscemi in there, Christopher Lloyd, it's a treat to see him, even if it's just a portion of his body and more. Yeah, what, what, as you look at this season, what are you most proud of?

• 22:22Speaker 04

  Well, I think it's, it was, second seasons are tricky. You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's great when your show hits, but then what you don't want to do is disappoint the second season. And as you said, you want to take that swing, you want to expand the world. You want to kind of dive into the, into the characters who you got a, certainly got a taste of in season one, but now they can have their own sort of subplots and, and, you know, help kind of fill out what is already there. And I think for us, that was it. We didn't want to repeat ourselves. We didn't want to do another kind of straight up cards down, whodunit mystery. So it's still very much a mystery and there's still twists and turns. But, um, but even that's kind of, you know, that's changed as well.

• 23:03Speaker 04

  So it's, I think it's, it's always the challenge is people come to the show for a certain thing, which you want to deliver, but then you want to deliver more than that.

• 23:12Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, and be unexpected. And I think that's always the, we just, we're really focused on not being complacent. And that we really wanted the show to be ambitious and surprising and that an audience would really come away feeling they've seen a, you know, a full meal, like I said, enjoy a full meal of entertainment. And that's always the thing. The show is the real the jogging active tone. Um, and so I think that we really tried to, to be as ambitious as we could. And we do have the, you know, the luxury of being, you know, a hit. And so we wanted to just like,

• 23:50Speaker 05

  allow ourselves to let our imaginations fly. So that was sort of like, that was sort of our, our goal, but also find new ways to, to explore the emotion of their characters. And hopefully the season will be, you know, as deeply resonant as the first, which was like two people by surprise that there's, that they, you know, they care about in a Wednesday's hug or thing almost dying. You know, these are sort of things that you don't really expect from an Addams Family show. And I think that's something that we've really tried to infuse in all the episodes, something unexpected that is emotionally resonant.

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  Um, you, you, you might as well also be talking about another of your collaborations with Tim Burton, which I do want to talk about. Congratulations on Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, which I very much enjoyed, uh, last year.

• 24:34Speaker 05

  Well, thank you.

• 24:35Josh Horowitz?

  And, and look, we, we, anybody that knows the history of Beetlejuice and the quest for a sequel knows that was a long road and there were a lot of expectations and a lot of false starts and different ideas over the years. And I've talked to Michael over the years. I've talked to Winona a lot over the years. They are very protective of these characters. They have very specific ideas of what they did or didn't want to see. Can you talk to me? I'm almost more curious about your collaborations or input from them than Tim. Like what did, what did Michael and Winona say directly or indirectly to you that informed what you ended up with in Beetlejuice Beetlejuice?

• 25:14Speaker 04

  Well, that was interesting. Tim came to us. We were shooting the first season of Wednesday, and he called us into his trailer one day after shooting. We thought, oh, God, is something wrong. And he said, you know, I want to do a sequel to Beetlejuice. It's the movie that people ask me about the most.

• 25:30Speaker 05

  Right.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  And he said, and he, and obviously, he'd been talking to Michael and Winona and Catherine. And, you know, said, if we don't do it now, we're never going to do it. And so we went away. And again, that's, you know, we seem to have this problem, which is you don't want to destroy people's childhoods, right? So you know what I mean? Like,

• 25:51Speaker 05

  Dancing on the, dancing on the knife's edge for 30 years.

• 25:54Speaker 04

  Dancing on the knife's edge with these things. And you want to, you want to honor, it's the, it is always the hat trick and the tightrope with these things, which is you want to honor what's come before, but it also has to feel there is a reason to be, and it's not just a cash grab, right, for these things?

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 04

  So.

• 26:10Speaker 05

  You can't be cynical. You know, that's always the thing.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I think what was great for us was Tim was literally the traffic cop for all of it. So we, we wrote the script, wrote the first draft, got it to him, sat with him, got all of his notes. Then, then he gave it to, you know, Michael, Winona, and Catherine. And in some ways, it was a very easy assignment, because you're really writing for an audience of two, Tim Burton and Michael Keaton. Because if one of them says no, you literally have no movie, right?

• 26:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  So you're, you're, you know. And I think what's great is, you know, Michael created such a, you know, character with Beetlejuice. And we can tell you, because we went back and read the shooting script of the first movie, that voice is not in there. It's not.

• 26:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 04

  So you're like, wow, this was all kind of, it all came, you know, out of them. So it, so I think for us, it was.

• 27:02Speaker 05

  You really see the improvisational, like,

• 27:05Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:05Speaker 05

  freedom he had on that set originally, right? That, that he created this insane iconic character that's not on the page, right? But the best compliment he gave us was like, he was like, oh my God, it's like, I can't believe it. All this, all this, it sounds like him. That was like, it sounds like Beetlejuice. And I guess his big note was, and Tim's too, is like, this always like, less Beetlejuice.

• 27:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  Less Beetlejuice. So we just had, we, we had a lot of scenes that we just like trimmed or cut or does it? So it just cuts down to like the essence. And so he is very spare in the movie. And I think that's what gives him that special pop that you, that when he, when he's on screen, it's like really impactful. But you don't see a lot of him. And that was really like, that was Michael's big thing. Just like, I, I, I shouldn't be in the movie too much.

• 27:51Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's the famous thing.

• 27:52Speaker 05

  The less, the better, really.

• 27:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. You go back to the original, he's on in like 18 minutes of the film and you're like, what? Oh, that's the impact of that character.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  It is.

• 28:00Speaker 05

  Yeah. He's just an agent of chaos.

• 28:03Josh Horowitz?

  He, needless to say, yeah. So film did very well. It sounds like the studio wants another. Are you in discussions? Are you involved in developing a, a third Beetlejuice film?

• 28:13Speaker 04

  That, that's really going to come down to Tim and when he's ready to, to engage in that. I mean, we're, we're, we're, we'll stand by and be ready, but I think, I think it always like, like this, the, you know, like this one, it, it has to come from him. And he has to, you know, feel engaged. I think that's why the movie doesn't feel cynical because he very much wanted to make it. And Tim does things for cynical reasons. He does things because he loves it and he wants to do it. And if it was a version he didn't want to do, we wouldn't have made it, to be honest. You know, that, that's, that's really how he, he works. He's very, he's very pure that way. Like if he's engaged, he'll make it. If he's not, he won't.

• 28:51Josh Horowitz?

  I would imagine though, you guys are smart guys. You've got your pitch ready when he calls and says, okay, I'm interested in doing a third one. What do you guys got? Do you have an idea?

• 29:00Speaker 04

  We, we, we got the weekend, which was good. So we were able to, because I'll be honest, I hadn't seen the movie.

• 29:07Speaker 05

  Oh, this is, this is the first time, this is in, in, um, in Romania. Yeah. It was like the first time. We watched, we, we saw it on the Friday afternoon in freezing Romania. And so then, hey, guys, you want to re, want to write the, the Beetlejuice sequel? So like, ah, yes. And then we spent the weekend basically watching the movie like eight times and then coming up with the pitch.

• 29:26Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, man.

• 29:27Speaker 05

  But but in terms of you're talking about the third movie, right? No, I mean, I think, look, I mean, we never

• 29:32Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, right.

• 29:33Speaker 05

  Get ahead of ourselves. So that's something that, you know, I I'm sure the studio wants to do a third. But I think I think it's really up to Tim and and Michael and Winona to decide if they want to do it, you know, and Catherine.

• 29:47Josh Horowitz?

  So, look, a lot of the folks tuning into this love your work from Smallville. I want to talk a little bit about Smallville, and especially given that we've just had a very successful Superman film out in theaters, which have you guys both seen it by now? First of all.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  I I have, we have not seen it yet. We've been sort of heads down finishing season two of Wednesday.

• 30:06Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough. You you know enough, though, to know

• 30:10Speaker 04

  Yes, I know.

• 30:10Josh Horowitz?

  That that that James has talked, you know, in glowing terms about Smallville, that Nick has talked about Rosenbaum's interpretation of Luther. That that Luther Corps is in the movie. It must please you that there are some real, there's real connective tissue and love from what you did to this new big screen interpretation.

• 30:31Speaker 04

  It's absolutely look, it's it's great, and it's great when a Superman movie works. And it's it's great that the movie is, it doesn't do, it doesn't fall into the traps of trying to be an origin story again, that all all the things. And and it sort of embraces, you know, his kindness and it's fun. I think that that's the thing

• 30:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 04

  Wonderful about it. And I, you know, look, Smallville is the gift that keeps on giving. There's something about Superman that always resonates with people like that is why he's lasted so long. You know what I mean? Because he can be interpreted for for any, frankly, any generation or any version of the world in which you're in. You know, and and certainly for us, you know, it was interesting with Smallville because, you know, we remind people there there was no Marvel Cinematic Universe. The last iteration of of of Superman had been Lois and Clark, which again was kind of a 90s yuppie version of of Superman. And so when we did it, you know, we premiered. You know, a month after nine eleven and it was oddly just became the right show at

• 31:34Speaker 04

  the right time. You know what I mean? It was like, American needs a hero and it's sort of, sort of comfort food for the American soul, you know, and, and to tell, tell that story in that era was great. And I mean, look, we did not expect it like, like any of these things. But you know, people say with Wednesday, did you think it was going to be so big? Of course not. You never, you never know. You, you go, we, we really, you know, at the time with Smallville, we loved the pilot. We loved the episodes we were making. The fact that it connected with people in, in such a way is, is great. And the fact that it still connects with people and, you know, it, it sort of.

• 32:07Speaker 05

  Yeah. And I think the people who grew up with the show are now making movies and starring in movies. So it's like, great to hear that, you know, it's, Smallville was his Superman. I mean, I think what's also interesting, like, we always saw Superman as a great allegory for immigration, that he was the ultimate illegal alien. And that's, that's the fact that James said that and it's like, so controversial was sort of like, I couldn't believe it. Like, that's so like.

• 32:30Josh Horowitz?

  It's baked into what it is.

• 32:32Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 32:33Speaker 04

  Yes. But, but, you know, we did an episode in season six with, where we sort of talked about it directly, you know, Clark finds a boy who's, you know, working on one of the farms.

• 32:44Speaker 05

  You know who that boy was? I think it was, it was Tyler Posey.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  It was Tyler Posey.

• 32:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. But he was like, he was like ten or something.

• 32:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. And we, and I remember at the time, and this is again, two thousand and six, the network was like, I don't know, this feels a little political for the show. We're like, it's literally the Superman story.

• 33:02Josh Horowitz?

  What do you want? To take it up with the original guys? Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 05

  It's so strange. It was like, that's like, it's the fact that it's still a controversial idea. It's like, that's just so great about, you know, the Superman story that I think that's why it's so, it's, it's, it's legacy has been so powerful. You know, it's really speaks to what the American dream is and all those sort of elements of Americana, you know?

• 33:26Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it gets a little bit at what I also want to talk about, which is like the nature of where we're at today versus when you were doing Smallville. Like certainly the internet was around and there were message boards, but now it's such a, the, the interaction, the, the weaponization of anything you say, of any storyline, it all becomes fodder for something. And I'm just curious, like, I don't know, do you think there's something? Useful about listening to the fans, about listening to the dialogue out there? Or is that, is that dangerous for a writer? Like back in the Smallville days, were you listening to the fans? Did that ever like influence where you went with any of the characters?

• 34:00Speaker 05

  Listening to ain't it cool news?

• 34:02Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly. Did Harry Knowles?

• 34:04Speaker 05

  Yeah. Exactly. I think Harry Knowles is not a fan, I don't think of Smallville, but it was like a, it's, we, we were such an early days of like fan boards for Smallville. But we did listen in terms of, we didn't listen, but we, we read and we acknowledged. We got a lot of criticism early on about being freak of the week. And it's just, when you're doing network, it's very hard to pivot. If you're like, you know, 10 episodes in, it's like, oh yeah, we agree, but you can't really do a lot. And you're in such a, that first season of any show, whether it's streaming or network, are just so insane. But it, you know, season, when the season one of Wednesday came out, we obviously got a lot of, we definitely, you know, you don't want to be slavish to it or

• 34:51Speaker 05

  overreact or, but to, to fan comments or to this, but you, you do take note of things that resonate with you in terms of things and ideas or criticisms like, oh yeah, that's fair enough. And, you know, it, it does allow us to shape what we're going to do in the future. Doesn't mean we're going to like, like, oh my God, like freak out, but it's good, it's good honest. Yeah, I think it's, the important thing is to be honest as a writer and a creator is like, okay, this is fair. And how do we change and how do we improve? I think it's always about never settling and never being complacent and always like just being open.

• 35:31Speaker 05

  I think that's always the thing. I think just open and, and listening, I think is a tooth trace that we really aspire to in terms of just like, yeah, okay, that's, that's, that's right. That's good. And, and moving forward with that. An open mind and, and listening.

• 35:46Josh Horowitz?

  If you only listened to the fans on the internet, this season would have just been eight episodes of Wednesday dancing. They would have just been like, okay, you wanted it? Here it is.

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• 37:06Josh Horowitz?

  Look, you guys have had an amazing career and a lot of great produced stuff, a lot of stuff that was never produced. I mean, a lot of comic book related stuff. So if you'll indulge me, I do want to like get your take on what your takes were on some of these or how far along you got. You do have a story credit on Spider-Man 2 for my money, one of the great comic book movies ever made. From what I've read, and correct me if I'm wrong, your story, your script had Doc Ock, but it also had Black Cat and Lizard? Like, what was, what was your take on Spider-Man 2 and, and how much ended up in what we saw in Raimi's film?

• 37:42Speaker 04

  You know, it's interesting, they approached us, we were doing the first season of Smallville, and we got a call that Sony wanted to meet with us. It was a general meeting, they wouldn't tell us. And we were so into it, we're like, okay, but can we do this later? And they're like, no, they really want to meet you. So we go there and we meet with Matt Tolmac, who was running production at the time. And we were sort of, you know, they love Smallville. And then they took us over to the set where we met Laura Ziskin, who produced it, and Sam Raimi, and they said, we love, and literally the pilot had just premiered like a month before. And they said, we, we loved your show, we love what you're doing, we'd love you to write the sequel. And we were like, okay.

• 38:18Speaker 05

  By the way, we're in the middle of like, it was like, just like the tsunami of work for season one of Smallville. It's like, what do you say, like, you want to write, you know, Spider-Man 2 series? Like, oh, yes.

• 38:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, the sequel to like the biggest superhero movie. Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, but, but, but also, you know, it's always funny with movies because they're like, what could a sequel be? And it's like, I mean, literally, most television shows, especially in the network days, are one long second act, right? Like, your pilot is your premise, and then you're in the second act. And our approach was, with great power comes great responsibility, but what if you never wanted the powers? And then he, he started losing them and it became like superhero reptile dysfunction, you know, and the idea that the world was moving on, you know, MJ was getting married to Jonah's son, and, and Doc Ock was, they, they said, we want Doc Ock to be the villain. We were like, great, because that to us was like the best.

• 39:07Speaker 05

  Best villain.

• 39:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, but also, you know, and to Sam's credit, is he always tried to find the humanity in the villain. So we, we actually worked with, it was Michael Crichton's researcher, who helped us come up with the, with the arms and the inhibitor chip. The idea that he was using this for other experiments, something goes wrong, and then they take over, and that was what sort of villainizes him. So, so that very much, you know, came to, and then, and then, okay, now this has happened, Peter has to get back in the game, but the, but his abilities aren't working. And it's really about, you know, because he can't be honest with, with MJ. You know, that, that's really, that's really what it was. And then, the, the other thing too, which is interesting, is from the first movie,

• 39:52Speaker 04

  is again, this is like the old days before, you know, now they've got the eyes moving and stuff, is they're like, we need to get his mask off more in situations. So.

• 39:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was like, because we'd done some ADR in the first movie with the Green Goblin, and it was just like, it was, it was, they were all worried before the movie came out.

• 40:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:07Speaker 05

  That there was, there was a scene on the, on the roof, was, it was Green Goblin talking to Spider-Man. They both had masks on, their mouths didn't move, this was like two masked figures, just like, it was, it felt like Power Rangers, right?

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:20Speaker 05

  So it was like, they were really worried. It really, it really did. It was like, okay, we can't do this again. So in the second movie, he's always taking his mask off and talking. Um, but the other thing I remember we talked about was like, the, the idea of the graduate ending at the church.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:34Speaker 05

  You know, that felt like, that was definitely a reference there. Um, so it was just.

• 40:41Speaker 05

  It was just a lot of, a lot of those strands from our script. Um, I don't think we have a black cat to be out.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  I think we, we talked about it, but didn't put her, didn't put her in the script, you know, cause it all, and like you're, you're just kind of overstuffed the bag, you know? So.

• 40:56Josh Horowitz?

  So talk about a different time. You also, correct me if I'm wrong, before Favreau and, and Feige and MCU, you wrote a, you wrote an Iron Man script. And I believe this is back when Nick Cassavetes was gonna do it. What was your take on, on Iron Man?

• 41:14Speaker 04

  It was Avi Arad had come to us after Spider-Man 2 and said, we have another.

• 41:20Speaker 05

  We'll say, and by the way, and these, Avi and Kevin Feige were working out of a, was it like an old balloon, balloon?

• 41:28Speaker 04

  No, it was, it was called like Toy, Toy Fair or something. It was, it was Avi's kind of company, but it was literally this small office on Santa Monica Boulevard down from, you know, AM, the Century City Mall. You know what I mean? It was really, they, they kept things very lean and mean. So, you know, when you're sitting in a room, it's like the two of us, Kevin and Avi, and that's it. Like that was it.

• 41:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. Um, it was all, cause there's, there's often Spider-Man 2, they go, guys, you know, we want you to do, we got another crown jewel, which is Iron Man. And it was at New Line at the time, right? That's where I was at.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, it was at New Line. And to be honest with you, I, I hadn't heard of Iron Man. And Avi goes, perfect. And he goes, here's, here's what he is. He's a, he's a billionaire who sells weapons. He's a, he's a, got an alcohol problem. And, you know, there's, there's, there's an accident. Now he's trying to make it, make it work, you know, make it better. So we thought, oh, this is interesting. Like just a totally different, it wasn't another teen superhero. Smallville and Spider-Man. We were like, oh, okay. So we, we did a draft, several drafts. We like, we, we worked on that for probably a year. And we went in with, with Kevin and Avi. And I remember, you know, I guess Bob Shay at the time had read it.

• 42:40Speaker 04

  And you know, it's an interesting thing with generations trying to still connect with what a superhero is. And he, he got all tied up that Iron Man could fly. He goes, cause Superman could. Like and he just leaked from building to building and we sort of all walked out of that meeting and we're like, we don't think this is gonna happen here. And again, to, to Kevin and, and obvious great credit, then they kind of got the character back and did

• 43:03Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  The version which basically is, I mean, that movie's fantastic. I mean, it's a

• 43:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, but well, once they moved to, did that, our script was dead.

• 43:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, our script was dead.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  It was like

• 43:14Speaker 04

  Stayed a new line, so.

• 43:15Josh Horowitz?

  Was there ever even like a dream casting in your mind? Did you write with an actor in mind? Or was, do you remember one being mentioned?

• 43:21Speaker 05

  Well, they wanted Tom Cruise.

• 43:23Speaker 04

  They wanted Tom Cruise at the time.

• 43:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:25Speaker 05

  And I think Cruise was interested.

• 43:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's an interesting, different alternate history that I, yeah, I mean,

• 43:32Speaker 05

  Absolutely, right?

• 43:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:35Josh Horowitz?

  Um, a couple, a couple others. Tell me if these were real, if you actually wrote scripts or not, if anything strikes your memories, Flash, Lobo, are there any others that I'm missing of superhero films? No? Okay.

• 43:47Speaker 04

  No.

• 43:47Speaker 05

  No.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  The only, the only other one we did is we, we did an Aquaman pilot that was gonna be a spinoff of Smallville with Justin Hartley, that, that we unfortunately did it the year that the WB and the CW merged and the politics of that situation killed that one.

• 44:03Josh Horowitz?

  Got it. And what, look, obviously Wednesday, hopefully I'm sure will continue. It's gonna keep you very busy for the foreseeable future, but do you have an appetite? You've done a lot, clearly, but do you have an appetite for a superhero film at this point? If Feige calls, if Gunn calls, is there a hero that you would like that you imagine that you could have a take on?

• 44:24Speaker 04

  Look, if either of those guys called, we'd absolutely take the meeting to tell.

• 44:28Speaker 05

  We have, we have, we have a real problem with saying no.

• 44:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. So we definitely, yeah. I think there's always, I think for us, we've actually always done well and, um, on characters who we don't really know, and it gives us a, a freedom to have our own take on that. Like Wednesday, we're like a huge Wednesday Addams fans from our youth or huge Superman fans. We're just like, but once we like connect with a character and like get into it and think, what's our spin on this life and how do we explore them and, um, And I guess, you know, to be the cliche, add complexity to those characters that everyone knows. That's when we get sort of excited and inspired. And that's true of both Superman, Clark Kent and Wednesday.

• 45:12Speaker 05

  It's like both characters that wouldn't necessarily have said before we did them like, oh yeah, we're huge Addams Family fans. And we knew the Addams Family and appreciated them, but weren't like, you know, rabid fans.

• 45:24Josh Horowitz?

  It's fascinating, like the nature of your kind of career. And I know it's a little bit because my brother has kind of been in the same space for a while. It's like you end up collaborating and pitching sometimes these people that you grew up with, that you revere, you know, whether it's like the Tim Burtons and look, I know, look, you obviously worked on Lethal Weapon four and Jackie Chan work like the stories you must be able to tell of having to like pitch these icons to their faces could fill up a few memoirs, I would imagine. Like have you, those are the ones I know about. So like, I'm just curious. Have you, have you pitched Spielberg, Tom Cruise, like, I don't know, The Rock or Vin Diesel? What are the stories that jump out at you of being like, how did I get in this room?

• 46:05Speaker 05

  We definitely pitched Spielberg. Yeah. And the best one was the Jackie, Jackie pitching Shanghai Noon. That was a good one, Al. You say that, tell that story.

• 46:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. So we go in, we got a call, we were working on Lethal Weapon four and Jonathan Glickman, who produced the Rush Hour movies, who we had known, called us and said, look,

• 46:25Speaker 04

  if we have this movie we're making with Jackie, if it makes $50 million, we want to make another movie with Jackie, not a sequel, another movie. And he has an idea. We're like, great. What's the idea? Because he wants to do a Western. We're like, great. What's the idea? And they're like, that's the idea. So we, so we

• 46:41Josh Horowitz?

  That's your job now. You fill in the rest.

• 46:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 46:43Speaker 04

  Literally. Yeah. So we, we go in and we're pitching, uh, we're pitching Jackie and it's Jackie and his manager and John.

• 46:53Speaker 05

  We're in this airstream trailer.

• 46:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 05

  And they're all smoking cigars. And neither, neither I or I smoke. It was the whole of this trailer was like full of cigar smoke.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. It was like, it was like getting, getting a contact high. And then when you pitched, Jackie would then start to get ideas. And then he'd stand you up and kind of use you as the dummy and show you what he wanted to do. So, yeah. So that was

• 47:17Speaker 05

  amazing. That was cool.

• 47:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 05

  And the other one, the pitch that got away, this is a weird story, is that we did, uh, The Mummy three. And then we get a call from my agent that Michael Jackson wants to meet us. And he wants to fly us out to Vegas till he has an idea for Aladdin.

• 47:39Josh Horowitz?

  That's stuff.

• 47:40Speaker 05

  And that's like, okay. We're like, it's like, okay. And and we're in the middle of something really like on a deadline or something really crazy. So we, you know, we're not going to do that because guys, you you can't turn down Michael Jackson. So it's like, we're not going to, we we're too busy at this moment. Give us six months. And so it's like, and I call.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  And then they said, oh, he's coming to LA because he's rehearsing for his O two concerts for for for for that. So we were like, okay, great. When he's in LA, we'd love to do it. And then like a month later, he was dead. So, yeah.

• 48:10Josh Horowitz?

  So so so never had the audience, but had the invitation. That's crazy.

• 48:14Speaker 04

  No.

• 48:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:16Speaker 05

  He was just taking it.

• 48:17Speaker 04

  We were like, oh, we were like, it would have been like meeting Elvis, right?

• 48:20Josh Horowitz?

  Did he want to play Aladdin? I guess, yeah. He wanted to play the genie like, yeah.

• 48:25Speaker 05

  I don't know. It was one of those things like, it was like, I didn't know, you know, we just didn't want to do it because we wouldn't have taken down the movie. Would have been an interesting like encounter with someone who's such, you know, a presence. But yeah, so that was like, that's one we one we regret, the one that got away.

• 48:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Okay, the last one, the last thing I want to mention is, again, we we've only touched on the tip of the iceberg of your career. But one show that's become more interesting even than like, you know, I mean, it was interesting at the time, but given what he's become is Shannara Chronicles. And you gave us amazing Austin Butler, who I chatted with. I mean, I work I work at MTV still to a to a degree, so I've crossed paths with Austin back then. Um, I don't know. I mean, you obviously saw something in him then, but did you see what he's become when you worked with him on Shannara?

• 49:12Speaker 04

  He he Austin always, we had seen him. We were, we were, it's funny, we were casting that show and Into the Badlands in the same building. And it talk about a tale of two cities for AMC. Remember, this was at the height of AMC. Anybody would come in and audition for an MTV show. It was like pulling teeth. So Austin had come in to audition for Into the Badlands and done a great job. And I was a fan of this from the Carrie Diaries because I I've seen. him in that and so we called him and said we the role in Badlands was Oliver Stark ended up doing that role and we had already seen him in but we said we have this other show you could be the lead it shoots in New Zealand and he had shot New Zealand before when you and I know the movie because my kids watched it on a loop called Aliens in the Attic

• 49:57Speaker 04

  which he had you know so we we sent him the script and said look if you just want to come in and and meet we we we think you'd be perfect for this and then he came in and he was perfect for it and he could not have been lovelier and incredibly hardworking you know always wanted to get better all he wanted to do is better like he's in his work ethic is incredible he's a lovely person so for him to have all of the success that he's had is fantastic we couldn't be happy we ran into him at a Golden Globes party because we were there for Wednesday and he was there for Elvis and we were just like you know you're you know it's like it's so great to see and he told us

• 50:38Speaker 04

  because remember the scene in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where he where he gets on the horse at the spawn ranch and he rides and it's a runner and he learned how to ride on Shunara and he said he goes I told Quentin he goes it was Shunara to thank for that and I remember the the the horse wrangler in in New Zealand was like this guy's a natural he's amazing

• 50:57Speaker 04

  so yeah we couldn't we couldn't be more thrilled for him he's he's he's a great guy and a fantastic actor

• 51:03Josh Horowitz?

  so well congrats again on the on this new season I've only seen the first half anything we should tease on the on the back four of of Wednesday anything you can say

• 51:12Speaker 04

  just just hold on because it the the ride gets a lot wilder

• 51:17Josh Horowitz?

  yeah I I also say it must be especially satisfying look again you guys have put in the work for for a long time I think Wednesday was the first time you got an Emmy nod for for your work I mean the nerds have won the gates came around

• 51:32Speaker 05

  thirty years in the making but yeah it's it's that's it's the thing that astonishes the most it's taken us this long but to have this Hit at this time of our lives is like it's it's incredible.

• 51:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 05

  But, uh, you know, so it's, it's, you know, we couldn't be more thankful. It's also a good time to have it. Actually, I'd rather have this kind of hit now that, you know, you could, you've really appreciated it. I mean, had Smallville and this is like next level. It's just, it's really like, it's really amazing. We couldn't be more thrilled or grateful.

• 52:03Josh Horowitz?

  No, I mean, look, any, any writer or creative in the industry knows how tough it is to create one thing that resonates, but to see what you guys have done in different periods, at different points in your life, in different ways is, is really a testament to your work ethic and talents. So congratulations on everything, guys. Congratulations on the new season of Wednesday. And thanks for the time today.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Thanks, Josh. Thanks so much.

• 52:24Josh Horowitz?

  Take care.

• 52:25Speaker 05

  Thank you, guys.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this, but Josh.

• 52:47Speaker 07

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