Self-Help Without Other People Is Just Selfish — and Here's the Science to Prove It | Dan Harris

Dan doesn't usually sit in the interviewee's chair — but when journalist and author Allison Gilbert invited him to speak at the 92nd Street Y as part of their Connected Lives series, he said yes. What followed was one of the more wide-ranging conversations Dan has had about his own practice, his own anxieties, and why he's become convinced that inner work divorced from relationships is just selfishness dressed up as self-care. The evening also included a guided loving-kindness meditation — metta practice — that Dan led live with the audience. They talked about: Why Dan thinks the meditation world's PR problem has shifted — it's no longer "this is weird hippie stuff," it's "I get it, but I personally can't do it" The upward spiral: how taking care of your mind improves your relationships, which improves your inner weather, which improves your relationships further — and the "toilet vortex" that runs in the opposite direction Free-range mindfulness: why brushing your teeth or standing in a grocery line can rewire your brain just like formal seated practice The self-compassion toolkit — Kristin Neff's three-step practice, distanced self-talk, and why putting your hand on your heart is "cheesy as f*ck" but actually works Joseph Goldstein's single best question for breaking an anxiety loop: "Is this useful?" Why micro-interactions — with your doorman, your barista, a stranger on the elevator — are one of the most underrated sources of happiness Allison Gilbert is a journalist, author, and the creator of The Joy of Connections, a book and companion app designed to help people build more meaningful relationships. She writes and speaks about human connection, grief, and resilience. Learn more at allisongilbert.com https://allisongilbert.com/. Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Additional Resources: Check out Allison's new app at beingmoreconnected.com http://beingmoreconnected.com/ This episode is sponsored by: Notion: Learn more about how Notion can support your business, at notion.com/happier http://notion.com/happier. To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dan Harris?

  Hello, my fellow suffering beings. Welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Normally on this show, given that I'm the host, I ask a bunch of questions of some smart guest. Today, though, I'm on the receiving end of the questions. What you're about to hear is an event that was recorded live at the 92nd Street Y, where I was interviewed by the journalist Allison Gilbert. We talk about why meditation still has a PR problem, why self-help without thinking about other people is just selfish, how I personally cope with my panic disorder and sometimes take stairs instead of the elevator, the case for loving-kindness practice, even though it can feel a little cheesy.

• 0:44Dan Harris?

  I sometimes describe it as being like Valentine's Day with a gun to your head, and why and how I used ChatGPT to help me get a really important recent medical diagnosis. So a lot here, and I think you're gonna enjoy it. A little bit more before we dive in on Allison Gilbert, who is the one asking the questions. She runs a series of events at the 92nd Street Y, which is an incredible institution in New York City. It's called the Connected Lives Series, so it's an occasional series of events she does. She also has an app called More Connected that helps you feel less isolated, build stronger friendships, et cetera, et cetera. You can get that app by visiting beingmoreconnected.com.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Thank you, guys, for coming, and thank you, Dan Harris.

• 1:43Dan Harris?

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  I am just a kid in a candy store, truly. I am so thrilled that you're here, and I want to start with some congratulations for you.

• 1:53Dan Harris?

  Thanks.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  10 years.

• 1:55Dan Harris?

  I don't even know what you're gonna congratulate before I.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Well, it's 10 years of your podcast.

• 1:59Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yes?

• 2:01Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  And I just, amazing. It's amazing.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  And the other person who had something to say, and we have to acknowledge her here, is Dr. Ruth Westheimer, because we are here in honor of her. And I was thinking about preparing to interview you tonight, so I was thinking, what does Dan Harris and Dr. Ruth Westheimer have in common? And so I came up with two things. One is that she was a straight shooter, and if you have read Dan's books, if you listen to his podcast, you know that you don't mince words. You're very, very straightforward. And that she changed, of course, the conversation about sex. And what I think that you do, what I think you do so well, is that you're changing the conversation about meditation.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  And you have said it has a massive PR problem. What is the PR problem that meditation has that you have sought so successfully to change?

• 3:00Dan Harris?

  Well, I think it's switched when I wrote 10% Happier 12 and 1/2 years ago, or I think maybe just 12 years ago. It was just considered fringe hippie pursuit, and I was trying to argue, no, no, there's actually a lot of data to show that it can rewire key parts of your brain, help with anxiety and depression, make you more effective at work. I think that is no longer really the issue. I think most.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Do you think because of your efforts?

• 3:30Dan Harris?

  No.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Do you think that you were helpful in that?

• 3:32Dan Harris?

  Maybe I was helpful, but I do think that the primary engine for social acceptance of meditation has been the science. I maybe gave it a little bit of airtime, which was helpful, but it really is the scientists who have changed the conversation. What I think the problem now is, is that most people, and I can't see you guys, but I'd be curious if I could see you to do a hand-raising exercise, which I won't make you do, because I can't see you. But most people, I suspect, if I asked you, who thinks meditation is good for you, most people would raise their hands, and if I said, who thinks they suck at meditation, most people would also raise their hands. And that is the problem.

• 4:16Dan Harris?

  People think it's good. I get it, it's good for you, but I can't do it. I can't clear my mind. And so I think most of what my job is on the planet now is to assure people that you don't have to clear your mind, as I often joke, clearing your mind is impossible unless you're enlightened or you've died. The goal of meditation is just to focus your mind for a few nanoseconds at a time, and then every time you get distracted, you start again and again and again. And it is that starting again that is the practice. So the moment when you wake up from distraction, which is the moment when most people tell themselves a story that they're incapable of meditation, that is actually proof of success.

• 5:00Dan Harris?

  Because what happens when you notice that you've gotten carried away is that you're getting an insight into how your mind works. In other words, I don't know if I'm allowed to do this at 92nd Street Y.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Oh, do it, do it, do it.

• 5:15Dan Harris?

  I'm gonna work blue here. You see, oh, I'm fucking crazy, right? And that's helpful, because when you see that, it doesn't own you as much, right? And that, you know, the more familiar you get with the voice in your head, with the internal chaos and cacophony, the less owned you are and yanked around by you are by all of the noise. And so that's what we're trying to do in meditation, and I think, I think not enough people know that.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  You said something before that I want to just go back to just really quickly. You said the research shows that we know it's good for us, and yet there is a kind of headwind that makes us not want to try again or attempt it for the first time. It's like you know how to eat better, like, sure, eat more kale, but it's really hard to do. You know to exercise more, but it's kind of a pain. You don't want to do it. You're kind of lazy, maybe. It's just, you're too busy. So I'm wondering, what is that way of smoothing the path that makes people more inclined to do it?

• 6:18Dan Harris?

  So there's the PR problem, which is, oh, I get it, it's good for me, but like, I can't do it, my mind is too busy, which I think we've just fully litigated. Then there's the practical problem, which is true of all habits, all healthy habits, which is, I don't have time for it, or I don't have the discipline. There is a large body of research on what it takes for humans to change their behavior. And the bad news is, it's hard. The good news is, it's doable, but you just have to follow us some guidelines from, and this is, I'm speaking in generalizations. I'm actually one of those annoying people who can, like, decide I'm gonna do something

• 7:03Dan Harris?

  and then just do it, which makes me really, really frustrating to talk to. But for most people, it's very, very hard to establish a habit, and so then there are some guidelines. One is, make it as easy as possible. Set the bar almost comically low. So with meditation, it might be one minute, daily-ish. And so one little rule is, one little rule is, don't miss two days, but you don't have to do it every day. And if you start small like that, a couple of things happen. One is, you start to get some momentum. Two, you start to have this story of, I'm the type of person who meditates. And this is also true for exercise.

• 7:46Dan Harris?

  With exercise, they often say, if you're, if you're having trouble starting, just putting your running shoes by the door.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:54Dan Harris?

  Or buying workout gear. Just these little steps, and then you build on each step sequentially. Couple of other little things that help. Piggybacking, so we all have habits that we're already doing. Hopefully, brushing your teeth is a well-established habit. You can piggyback whatever new habit you want to adopt. Meditation, exercise, on top of that.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Well, you mentioned that in Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics.

• 8:20Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  The brushing your teeth, or if you're at a grocery store, you're on the line. Maybe that's my example, not yours, but you could be at a stoplight when you're driving. These micro moments can be really beneficial.

• 8:31Dan Harris?

  Yes. That's slightly different, so, but, but true. So it is true, on the one hand, that you can use your existing habits to create, to, you can draft off of them to create new ones. But it's also true that with meditation, there's new research showing that you can get most of the benefits of a formal-seeded practice from free-range versions of the practice. So just as you were saying, if you're trying, if you attempt to be mindful while you're brushing your teeth, so what does it feel like as my arm and hand are moving? What is, what are the sensations in my mouth? And then you notice when you get distracted and start again, that can rewire your prefrontal

• 9:16Dan Harris?

  cortex, where the part of the brain that's associated with attention regulation, just the way formal practice would. And so that, that's really helpful to know. Same with standing online at the grocery store, instead of checking your phone, if you're just mindful of what that seeing is happening, what's the, what's the temperature on my face right now? And then you, every time you get distracted, you start again. You can do this with washing the dishes, you can do this with having a conversation, you can do this with eating. And so this is really helpful to know, because then you don't actually have to fold yourself into a pretzel on a cushion.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  I want to just zoom out just for a little bit. So we've gotten pretty in the weeds already, and I want to just zoom out, because we're here to talk about connections with other people. Not just connection to ourselves. But here's the magic, I feel, in your work, is that when we are more connected to ourselves, we are better.

• 10:10Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  In relationships to other people. And I want to go back to 2014, if you don't mind, just for a second. That was a big year for you. That was the year that the book came out, 10% Happier. It was the year that Alexander, your son, was born. And I'm just curious, he never knew the other version of Dan Harris. He's only known this guy here, sitting with me today. Do you think you're a different dad today because of this practice than you might have been if you didn't find meditation so many years ago?

• 10:43Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I kind of shudder to think, actually, about what kind of dad I would have been. I'm not a perfect dad by any stretch, as Alexander likes to let me know. But I do, I have this tendency that I still work with, to get angry. You know, I just have a temper, and this runs in my family. I had a grandfather, Robert Johnson, not the guy who made a deal with the devil, but my, my mother's father, and he was a very cranky, temperamental guy, and I have some of that in my system. And.

• 11:25Dan Harris?

  This practice, among others, really helps me ride it so that I don't act it out and lash out. And I think if I would have, I think I would have been controlled by these angry urges in ways that I am not really now. Yesterday, in fact, Alexander was talking to his friend. I was driving Alexander and his friend somewhere, and they were talking about what it's like when their dads get angry. And I said, "Do I get angry much?" He said, "No, but when you do, it's a little scary." And I was like, "Okay, that, I don't love that when I get angry, it's a little scary." But the fact that it doesn't happen very often, for me, given my baseline, is a huge achievement.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  My father was very short-tempered, and I remember when he started sketching, and he took his sketchbook with him. So if he was getting annoyed online, or something was taking too long, instead of having that be something that he would then lash out, he just started drawing.

• 12:28Dan Harris?

  Sketching and drawing can actually be very powerful. I have panic disorder, and it really shows up in enclosed spaces. I did not take the elevator tonight. And airplanes can be very difficult for me. And drawing is, and I'm not even an artist, but drawing is very helpful.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  For those who are new to you tonight, if there's one person who is new to Dan Harris here, I do want to go back a little bit to the story, really, that put you on this path. You know where this is going, but there were some words that you used to describe yourself in 10% Happier and some other interviews that I've read since then, of course, that you were snippy with colleagues, self-centered, smug, angry with producers. You threw papers in the air when you were a cub reporter in Maine.

• 13:26Dan Harris?

  I wrote this about myself?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then here are things that I think many of us who are hard-charging in our careers can relate to. You were perpetually concerned with career advancement. You were mindlessly ambitious, super hard-charging at the expense of everything else.

• 13:45Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Who were you close to at that time? We're talking about relationships here. How did all of that impact how you showed up in relationship to other humans at work and at home?

• 13:58Dan Harris?

  At that period of time, I actually had a very warm group of friends, and I don't think they saw this version of me. So I think this version of me, it was corrosive to my work relationships, although I did have very close work relationships. But it could, that sort of headlong attitude, that super ambitious attitude, could get in the way of my work relationships. I kind of quarantined my friend group and had, I don't think they were, none of them watched me on TV, so that it was a very separate little world. And I think that was a saving grace for me, to have close friendships that were unrelated

• 14:42Dan Harris?

  to this massive stressor, which was work.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  I wonder if you were aware, likely you were, that when you were so willing to be vulnerable and authentic with what you were struggling with, that it would have such ripple effects. You admitted, which I think was against, some of your friends must have advised you not to admit this publicly, you got involved with cocaine, ecstasy.

• 15:15Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  And then something happened on June 7, 2004, in front of 5 million people. What happened on that day?

• 15:24Dan Harris?

  I had a panic attack. The backstory is that I, some of you already know this, so I'll keep it quick, but I had spent a lot of time post 9/11 in war zones, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that kind of thing. And I came home, got depressed, didn't know I was depressed, and then started self-medicating with recreational drugs. I was not high on the air when I had the panic attack on Good Morning America, but it was, after I had the panic attack, actually, my mother was watching, and she called me and said, "You had a panic attack."

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Well, she's a doctor.

• 16:04Dan Harris?

  She's a doctor, was a doctor, she's retired now, playing a lot of bingo. And she got me in to see a psychiatrist. And I actually didn't know what had caused it, and the psychiatrist asked a bunch of questions, and one of the questions was, "Do you do drugs?" And I said, "Yes." And he, I often tell the story where he kind of leaned back in his chair and gave me this shrinky look, which communicated the sentiment of, "Okay, asshole, mystery solved." And he explained that my drug use was, even though I was not high on the air, my ambient drug use was enough to change my brain chemistry and make it more likely for me to freak out.

• 16:47Dan Harris?

  So that was the time when I quit doing drugs, agreed to go see this guy once or twice a week, like I saw him for a decade, and it was that moment that kind of set me on the trail toward meditation. Most of us can remember being about 15 and feeling completely invisible, or worse, extremely visible, but for the wrong reasons. I remember one year, when I was a teenager, I had a pimple in the crevice of my nose for the entire year. I didn't like that. Either way, even if we have painful memories of that age, most of us tend to soften it in memory, and it was actually harder than we remember it now.

• 17:28Dan Harris?

  That is the territory of Carrie, now streaming on Prime Video, the first-ever television adaptation of Stephen King's Carrie. Eight episodes from Mike Flanagan, with Stephen King as an executive producer. Flanagan had described this show as a tragedy. It's about a girl who doesn't feel seen by anyone, and about how small, everyday acts of unkindness compound into something nobody meant to cause, which happens now at a speed and scale that would have been unimaginable not long ago. What I really appreciate about the show is that the show takes Carrie seriously as a person, rather than as some sort of symbol, and the season keeps circling around one major question. Are you watching the making of a hero, a villain, or something more complicated than

• 18:12Dan Harris?

  either of those options? Carrie is now streaming on Prime Video.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  So this, I find very interesting. So many of the meditation teachers that you speak about are Jewish.

• 18:34Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  And we're here at the 92nd Street Y, so there are a bunch of questions I have about this, and I think that you're going to be very okay with me chatting with you about. You mentioned your mom, she's not Jewish, your dad is. You had a bar mitzvah because you wanted it, because other kids were having it in the Boston area, not because you were terribly religious at all, it was more of a...

• 18:55Dan Harris?

  Wanted the money.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Is there something about your childhood that you felt allowed you to be more open to the opportunities that you were beginning to feel meditation offered?

• 19:13Dan Harris?

  Is there something about my childhood that made me sort of open to...

• 19:19Speaker 01

  More open to it, more willing to try? Was there anything that was, was there freedom in your home?

• 19:27Dan Harris?

  There was freedom in my home, but actually, everything about my childhood made me really skeptical about meditation, because my parents were hippies, and they had forced me to do yoga, and I hated that. And I associated meditation, as I think many did at this period of time, with the new age. And I also found a lot of the atmospherics around meditation to be intensely annoying, all the, like, stories being shared instead of told, and sacred spaces, and a lot of this, and I, I just...

• 20:01Speaker 01

  That was a turn-off, actually, to you.

• 20:02Dan Harris?

  Massive turn-off. And I don't think that kind of skepticism, I think it helped in telling the story, but it hurt me in my own personal development, because I was reflexively rejecting things for superficial reasons that, and the story of my contemplative career is just getting over myself and seeing how wrong I was, time and time again.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Well, some of the Jewish scholars that you were mentioning, Goldstein, Goleman, Kornfield, Salzberg, these are all wonderful scholars.

• 20:36Dan Harris?

  It's like a law firm.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  And then one is Joseph Goldstein.

• 20:42Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  And...

• 20:43Dan Harris?

  We just spent the weekend at our house.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Who is Joseph Goldstein? How did he come into your life? And you've described him as a mensch.

• 20:51Dan Harris?

  He's a mensch. He's incredible. Do you guys know who Joseph Goldstein is? Okay. Yeah, he's amazing. He is, uh, he's turning 82 on Wednesday. And he is, um, my friend Jay, who's in the room, has semi-facetiously described Joseph as the Pope of Western Buddhism. He's kind of like the, one of, if not the, most respected Western teachers of the Dharma. And I got connected with him. We had two mutual friends. One of them is Sam Harris, the podcaster, who's, I'm not related to him, but he's a good friend. And he's close with Joseph. And then Dr. Mark Epstein, who's a writer and psychiatrist here in New York City, who I befriended.

• 21:35Dan Harris?

  And he, the two of them introduced me to Joseph. And we just really hit it off. This was in 2010, so quite a while ago.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  And you went on a retreat?

• 21:42Dan Harris?

  I went on a retreat with him. And, um, yeah, now he's, we're just very close friends. And he's great friends with my son and my wife. And we had an experience on Thursday, actually, where I was telling this story backstage. I was in a very tense phone call with the editor of my next book. And we were fighting about what the title was gonna be. Really pissed. And I got off the phone and I was like sheet white. And I went to talk to my wife, which is always the thing I do when I'm freaking out. And we talked a little bit, but then I had to step away because I had to go record a podcast. I'm sure that podcast is not gonna turn out well. And then after I got out of the podcast,

• 22:26Dan Harris?

  both Bianca and Joseph were there. And they said two things in concert. One, you need to take a Klonopin, which is a great thing to hear from your meditation teacher. Small dose, small dose. And two, uh, we advise you to capitulate. And it was really helpful to have these two incredibly forceful figures in my life who get along like a house on fire, mostly in opposition to me. And just, you know, the fact that I have, that I can call Joseph Goldstein when I'm freaking out, which is not uncommon, I hate to say,

• 23:10Dan Harris?

  is so valuable. And he is, um, he's just such a thoughtful, funny, learned person. And you called him a scholar. I would say he is that. You certainly weren't wrong. But he is more a, well, for sure, a teacher. But I guess I think of him mostly as a practitioner. Since he was 20, maybe 21, so for 60 years, he has been, he has dedicated his life. He otherwise would have been a lawyer or an architect. He has brought this big brain to Buddhism. And not just the study of Buddhism, but the practice of it. Three months a year, he's in silent meditation, on retreat by himself.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  And you're about to go on another silent retreat? Your longest one to date, yes?

• 23:56Dan Harris?

  Yes, not three months. I usually do 10 days a year with Joseph. I'm gonna, he last year peer pressured me into 14 days. But the point I'm trying to make is that what Joseph really is is somebody who is, just loves this practice, engages with it deeply himself, has spent years of his life in silent meditation, on silent meditation retreats, and loves to talk about it and help people upgrade their own minds. And so I'm the beneficiary of that. And what I've tried to do is to pass that along to as many other people as I can.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Well, I was really lucky that he wasn't on retreat when I reached out to him. So I emailed Joseph, and I wanted to get his thoughts on you.

• 24:46Dan Harris?

  Dan, do you have any more Klonopin?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  So this is the first time you met. This is Joseph speaking. I remember him sitting toward the back of the hall, asking questions that were half a challenge and half a sincere interest to understand. But what impressed me from the beginning was Dan's quick connection to the teachings and his dedication to the practice, even as he encountered all the difficulties of a first-time meditator. And you mentioned some of those difficulties. But I wonder if, what are those difficulties that you personally encountered? Was it staying on task? You had mentioned it's important to come back daily, if not more so.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  You had a hard-charging TV career. So where was your headwind most of the time?

• 25:39Dan Harris?

  Well, there's nothing special about me in this regard. The, the, the problems that you have all experienced, to the extent that you've meditated, I experienced those. Just mind wandering, dealing with overwhelming emotions, the, the planning of a homicide, whatever, just like random thoughts and powerful emotions. And, um, you know, on retreat, which you don't have to do in order to be a good meditator, but it can be a great thing to do. On retreat, a lot of boredom and loneliness. And so just the stuff of an average human mind. But I was really convinced from the first time I sat down to meditate that this is not like hacky sack.

• 26:24Dan Harris?

  You know, this is not like a hippie pastime. Although I actually read today that young people, non-hippies, are really getting into hacky sack today. Not use that joke anymore. That I just knew from the first time I, in the summer of 2009, that I sat down to meditate, I set an alarm on my BlackBerry for five minutes. And I just knew right away, this is exercise for the brain.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:50Dan Harris?

  And, um, yeah, I've just had an unwavering commitment since then, based on just personal interest and personal suffering. Wanting to, I've had anxiety and depression since I was a little boy. Often people say to me, as they get to know me, when I'm making friends, "Wow, you're really anxious for a meditation guide." And I'm like, "You have the causality wrong." This, I'm, my interest is really driven by my own tendency toward despair and fear. And over time, as those tendencies have gotten better, although they, they do come back,

• 27:34Dan Harris?

  the motivation has switched toward wanting to help other people with their own anxiety and anger and anguish.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Well, you're gonna help us here tonight. We may not have all the same haunts. We all have some haunts. They're just different haunts. And what I really appreciate about your work is that meditation doesn't look the same for everybody. Not only is it a different quantity of time that might work, you can go on a walking meditation. You can do a guided meditation where you're listening to the 10% Happier app. You can do it on your own. You like that plug, that was good.

• 28:16Dan Harris?

  Available wherever you get your apps.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  You can do it that way. And one of the meditations that I particularly appreciate in light of this series, Connected Lives, which I loved learning about from you, is that it puts you in place of relationships. So you're not alone, being completely internally focused.

• 28:40Dan Harris?

  Just to step back, because you raised something earlier, and I don't think I gave it my full attention. The, the interaction between inner work and how you are in the world.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:52Dan Harris?

  I just, this, I think, is an overlooked phenomenon. The way, and I'm responsible for this to a certain extent. The way meditation is often talked about is a solo pursuit and, and internal exercise. But the, the point isn't to, as, as Joseph's close friend and collaborator Sharon Golds, Sharon Salzberg often says, the point is not to become a better meditator. It's to become a better person. And I don't think that is emphasized enough. And again, I take responsibility for that. I think of...

• 29:34Speaker 01

  That's actually the reason why I was so happy that you said yes. Because I see what you've just said, which is that by working on ourselves, that's actually why in The Joy of Connections, when Dr. Ruth, we were putting together the book, there are five components. And self came first.

• 29:52Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Self, working on yourself, being kind of more aware of your own actions and your behaviors. Self is first. It helps set you up for deepening and nurturing and making better all the connections.

• 30:06Dan Harris?

  Yes, but self-help without thinking about other people is just self-ish. And I think, and it's also just stupid. Because we, if you think about evolution, that we evolved to need other people. Right now, we're in a culture that militates against social connection at every turn, through individualism, and of course, through technology. It is not a coincidence, in my opinion, that we are seeing unprecedented levels of anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction, and loneliness. So I'm all for self-help or self-care. But the point

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:46Dan Harris?

  is to have more bandwidth, to relate to other people more successfully, not in a finger-waggy, you should be a good person way, but because your relationships will dictate your happiness. This is an upward spiral that is available to all of us. Just to step back, I think most of us live in a downward spiral much of the time. We are kicking our own asses, and that impacts our relationships. Because relationships are the most important variable in human flourishing, we feel even worse. Our relationships get even worse. And my friend of mine calls this the toilet vortex. There is this upward spiral where you you take care of your own mind.

• 31:31Dan Harris?

  That improves your relationships. Your inner weather gets even bombier. Your relationships improve even more and up you go. And I'm not saying you you you will. And I certainly am not always on the upward spiral. I have my bad days. But you want to be like upward spiral ready.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:50Dan Harris?

  And I think and I actually think you can start on either side. Self taking care of your own mind is a great way to get access to the upward spiral. But you can also just start by being kind and generous with other people. That will make you feel good. Now, it's a tricky balance because you if you focus too much on yourself, your relationships will suffer. If you focus too much on other people, you may forget yourself. The Tibetan Buddhists call that idiot compassion. So this is it's an art.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 32:23Dan Harris?

  And a science, actually, kind of at the same time.

• 32:27Speaker 02

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• 32:59Speaker 01

  I think what I find so powerful is that it puts you instantly, this compassion, in community.

• 33:08Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  And we know, quoting other research, that when you say hello to the person making your coffee or when you pick up your dry cleaning and you take your AirPods out and you have a moment of humanity, it helps you feel in place, that you belong to something larger than yourself, this compassion practice.

• 33:31Dan Harris?

  Yes. I was for so much of my life, just so self-centered and just kind of in my own little rut and groove and pursuing my own agenda. And like, there's a time and place for all that. I'm not trying to be overly self-critical. But I've found that through doing high doses of this practice over the years, it has really just kind of like my factory settings are at frosty New Englander. It's just warmed me up. And you're absolutely right. There's a ton of data that shows that these so-called micro-interactions are a potent source of happiness. And like, when you ignore the possibility

• 34:15Dan Harris?

  of just these tiny little moments of interaction with the people you are encountering all day long, you're kind of like, metaphorically speaking, leaving money on the table happiness-wise. And, you know, I think just being on the lookout for that is a really powerful little practice. And this underlying practice of Metta can really prime you to do it.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  So when you blow past your doorman and you don't say hello.

• 34:42Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  When you don't engage at all, perhaps, with your Uber driver, does the opening up of that opportunity make you experience your world? Does it change your body? Does it change how you relate to yourself? Does it make you happier, you 10% happier? How does it make you feel inside? And then how does it all kind of work together in this wonderful stew that you're telling us that we should embrace?

• 35:09Dan Harris?

  It I'll just tell you, for me, it just it's just a much happier way to live. I'll give you a story. Because I have panic disorder, I am, you know, often kind of at other people's mercy, you know, or I need help, you know? And that's I don't love being in that position. But having a more open, friendly attitude has allowed me to get some support in moments when I need it. And the little story on this tip, I was I sometimes record my podcast at a studio in New York City. Mostly, I record from home. And one day, I was at the studio.

• 35:54Dan Harris?

  It was my first time at this particular studio and I had all my luggage with me. And I was I walked in the building and I looked at the elevator and it was a very small elevator and I just it was my mind was like, this is not today. Like, I can't do this today. And I was kind of just staring at the elevator forlornly. And I turned to the security guard and said, can I walk? And he was like, 16 flights. And I said, can I walk? Can you just would you take this up to the 16th floor? And he got up, put his jacket on and said, I'm gonna ride with you. I'm gonna hold your hand. And we rode to the 16th floor. His name is Barry, B-A-R-I.

• 36:38Dan Harris?

  He's an immigrant from East Africa. And it worked and I ride the elevator with him every time I go. And like, that kind of openness has been a huge boon for me personally.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  I love that. Thank you for sharing that story. I want to switch gears just for a moment before I take these questions. One part of your work that I really do find to be so impactful is and you hit on a little bit about the stories that we tell ourselves. You famously have said, you know, the voice in your head is an asshole. But here are some things that I think that people ruminate over. I will never find love.

• 37:24Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Everyone's career is awesome. I'll never catch up. I'm too fat. I'm too short. I'm too tall. I'm too ugly. I'm not enough. We all have that gnawing at us. And how do we stop the asshole voice in our heads? How does this practice that you're talking about nip that in the bud so you can then reorient your thinking and invest in your relationships that we were just talking about?

• 37:59Dan Harris?

  I don't believe in silver bullets, but I think there are several modalities that you can bring to bear here. One is mindfulness, where you just learn to spot that this is happening and not take it so seriously. But this is a slow process. Second, warming up your inner atmosphere through practices like Metta can also help change how you relate to yourself. But I think the shortcut, the most powerful practice, is something called self-compassion. It's invented by a woman named Kristin Neff, who's a psychological researcher at the University of Texas. I believe she should be considered a world historic figure for not only naming this inner capacity, but but also developing practices that help you build it

• 38:44Dan Harris?

  and then studying the impact of these practices. And the results are incredible. So if you're in these, I'm unlovable, I don't like the way I look in the mirror, my career is shit. If you're in one of the if you're in this kind of toilet vortex, she has this little practice that you don't need to sit on a cushion to do. You can do it right there in the moment. One is just notice it's happening. Not hard to do. Just notice. All right, yeah, I'm kicking my own ass. Two, and you can skip one and two. The third step is the most important. Two is just to call just to bring to mind, like, this is normal. There's a lie we tell ourselves when we're in self-flagellation mode,

• 39:28Dan Harris?

  which is, I'm the only one with this problem. But mathematically, when you just consider it, millions of other people are dealing with whatever you're dealing with right now. The third step is just to talk to yourself the way you would talk to a good friend. We all have this capacity to be great friends, great mentors, great parents, great uncles and aunts. When somebody we love is having problems, we know how to talk to them. You and this is incredibly good news. Like, you can channel that capacity and direct it towards yourself. And there's a ton of research to show that it really works.

• 40:11Dan Harris?

  Two things that the research shows will supercharge it. One, and I hate to say this, putting your hand on your heart, which is cheesy as fuck, will actually help. So I don't like to have see anybody. I don't like to have anybody see me doing it. But like, when I'm about to get on a plane, it's like, bro, you're good. Like, you're not gonna you're you're fine. Like, you're this is not a life and death or death situation. You're good.

• 40:41Dan Harris?

  The other thing that really helps, and you just heard me do it, although I didn't name it, is talking to yourself with the third person, in the third person. So this is called distanced self-talk. So using your own name, or bro, dude, whatever, sweetie.

• 40:57Dan Harris?

  I don't use sweetie. You might do whatever works for you. This has been shown to really help the words land. So again, there's no silver bullet. These moments suck.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  And there's also a great question that Joseph recommended to you, if I remember this correctly. Is this useful?

• 41:19Dan Harris?

  Yeah, that's really helpful, too.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  I love that one.

• 41:22Dan Harris?

  This is a little bit more for sort of anxiety, when you are in the throes of worrying about something over and over. There's actually, Joseph was writing about the first time we met. Or describing it to you, and I was on a meditation retreat with him, and I was sitting in the back of the hall, asking obnoxious questions. One of the obnoxious questions I asked was on the penultimate day of the retreat. He said something to the effect of, you may find your mind ranging off to like the things you have to do when you get home. Try to avoid that, or try to be mindful of when it happens and don't go down that road. And I was like, well, dude, if I miss my flight, that has real consequences. Am I not correct to worry about that? And he said, sure.

• 42:02Dan Harris?

  But on the 85th time, maybe ask yourself the question, is this useful? And that is so helpful for anxiety.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  These are some questions from the audience. So thank you for writing them so beautifully, and legibly, I might add.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  How do you cope, Dan, when anxiety feels overwhelming?

• 42:26Dan Harris?

  How do I what?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  How do you cope when anxiety feels overwhelming?

• 42:31Dan Harris?

  Yeah. Look, I made the joke about Klonopin earlier. But I do think for some of us, medication is really important. I'm very careful around a medication like Klonopin, which can be viciously addictive. So I think you have to be, you want to be talking to your doctor and be very cautious about this type of stuff. But you know, there's certain SSRIs or anti-depressants can be really helpful for anxiety as well. So just talking to your doctor about the medical options, I think is a really smart move. As you will see, I'm going to list a bunch of things, because I believe with anxiety, you gotta pull every possible lever you can.

• 43:17Dan Harris?

  The most powerful lever I pull, and this was reflected in the story I told about what happened on Thursday after my editor was mad at me, is other people. There's a great expression, never worry alone. And so when I have a problem, I talk to my wife. And if she's not available, I talk to Joseph, or anybody who will fucking listen.

• 43:46Dan Harris?

  Don't suffer in silence. Again, this is, this is basic evolution. We got to the top of the food chain, not because we obviously don't have wings, or talons, or sharp teeth. We got to the top of the food chain because of our ability to cooperate and collaborate. And so use that to your advantage. And notice how, when you don't get that stuff, even if you're an introvert, you still need it, you just need less. When you don't get the appropriate amount of social interaction, you wither.

• 44:24Dan Harris?

  Metta meditation, according to the ancient Buddhist texts, was developed as a kind of anti-anxiety medication by the Buddha, who had a bunch of monks practicing in the remote forests, and they were freaked out by the local forest spirits. And he invented this practice as a way to counteract fear.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  I know you're going to like this next question, which is, the world is a tough place right now, and this all feels really self-indulgent.

• 44:58Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  And this feels like there are bigger issues.

• 45:02Dan Harris?

  Yeah. How do you want to deal with those issues, from a place of anger, and overwhelm, and bitterness, and hatred? Do you think that's the most effective way to deal with them? Go for it, try it, see how it works. I, in my experience, don't think that's the best way to operate.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  I think the question is, is carving out this time for this type of practice, is that self-indulgent, when the world is facing so many? Like, should our time be used differently?

• 45:35Dan Harris?

  I don't think it's mutually exclusive.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:37Dan Harris?

  I think taking five minutes, one minute, to take care of your own mind, so that you can respond to the many emergencies of the world more effectively, is being a good citizen.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:51Dan Harris?

  I think there's, I often say, a geopolitical case for you to get your shit together. And the point of this is not so that you're off in some self-indulgent bliss bubble. The point of this is so that you can engage, what Joseph Campbell says, engage joyfully in the sorrows of the world. That's the point here.

• 46:16Dan Harris?

  And honestly, there's something really strange about what I'm about to say. When you're engaged in compassionate action, it's uplifting.

• 46:31Dan Harris?

  There's something I find really annoying about the response to, and I see it myself. The response to the many, I mean, I'm worried about all the things, same things you're worried about. AI, the potential demise of our democracy, climate change, war, on and on and on. But performative misery is not helping anyone. Compassion, getting involved, does two things. One, it absorbs your anxiety, because it gives you a sense of agency. And two, it feels good, and that's okay. Miserable people don't tend to change the world for the better.

• 47:17Dan Harris?

  Happy, joyful, engaged, energetic people can make change. So this is the opposite of self-indulgent.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  I love that. And how young, there's a question about kids. How young is too young?

• 47:30Dan Harris?

  Well, preschoolers can be taught these practices. I, as a parent, recommend caution with your own children. I think it's great if the teachers in the school are teaching it. But I find that children, you may have noticed, are genetically engineered to reject any suggestion you might have for them. So I never try to get my son to meditate. My son travels with me all over the world to give speeches and stuff like that. He could give my speech, but he, actually, he's usually on his iPad while I'm giving my speech. But he, you know, I've never asked him to meditate. I, you know, I believe, what's the?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Well, you don't want to be a meditation bully.

• 48:17Dan Harris?

  You don't want to be a bully. Also, there's a, there's a great cartoon in The New Yorker, had two women having lunch, it depicted two women having lunch, and one of them says to the other, I've been gluten-free for a week, and I'm already annoying.

• 48:34Dan Harris?

  That can happen with meditation people. I did it to my wife. For many years, my wife didn't meditate, because I was so annoying at the beginning. And so this can really be triply dangerous with kids. So I say, if you want a mindful kid, you gotta be a mindful parent. You gotta model for them the behavior you want to see.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  One off-topic question on this, because it's not about kids.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  It's on topic, of course, for this whole discussion. But I was really pleasantly surprised with what you've just done on your app. You just ended Sleep Week, and we haven't talked about sleep and its impact on your ability to show up in relationships, or to do this work that you're talking about. Why did you do Sleep Week on your app, and why is sleep so important?

• 49:25Dan Harris?

  People like sleep meditations, and we wanted to give it to them.

• 49:30Dan Harris?

  But of course, sleep, as I often say, is like the apex predator of healthy habits. Like you, nothing works without sleep.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:37Dan Harris?

  So, you know, meditation can be very helpful for sleep, but there are lots of other things you can do, and we can get into if you want.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I think a lot of people struggle with sleep. Is there one or two tips that you want to share with us tonight? I think that's a big problem.

• 49:53Dan Harris?

  I struggled with, I was diagnosed last year with the dumbest syndrome, dumbest sounding syndrome you can have, restless leg syndrome. So embarrassing. Anyway, it destroyed my life for 15 years. It was, that's an overstatement. It degraded my life for 15 years. It was terrible. And you know who diagnosed it? AI.

• 50:16Dan Harris?

  I was complaining about it to doctors for years. They didn't pick it up, and I complained to ChatGPT, another person I never worry alone with, when nobody else will listen to me. I'll talk to ChatGPT.

• 50:28Dan Harris?

  And it picked it up. And so, so if you have restless leg syndrome, there are medical things you can do. But for average insomnia, a couple of things.

• 50:40Dan Harris?

  It helps to have a wind-down routine.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:44Dan Harris?

  So mine is, I do 15 minutes of walking meditation, take a hot shower, and in the hot shower, I list all the good things that happened that day, and then I get into bed. Keeping the room cool is very helpful. Body, part of the warm shower also, like, gets your body temperature down afterwards, when you're toweling off. And then the cool room keeps your core temperature low. Sunlight first thing in the morning can be very helpful. And then I find a crucial hack is when you can't sleep, using self-compassion. Talking to yourself the way you would talk to a little kid. Well, actually, when I was a little kid, and I would say to my dad, I can't sleep, he would say, bend over and run as fast as you can into the wall.

• 51:29Dan Harris?

  So don't do that. But when I can't sleep, and I'm like...

• 51:39Dan Harris?

  Yeah. That tells you a lot about how I developed my sense of humor. When I can't sleep and I'm perseverating, I'm like, I'm making all these projections into how bad the next day is gonna be. No. First of all, get out of bed. You don't want to teach the brain that the bed is a place for struggle. So I get out of bed, read a book, watch TV, do some more meditation. And I just, I just, I say to myself, "Look, you've had a million sleepless nights and the next day has always been fine. You can handle this. Don't worry about it." And that, really, the combination of getting out of bed and talking myself off the ledge helps me fall back to sleep.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Thank you for sharing that. I, I think when I go to sleep, when you say, "What are the good things that were in your day?", I think this will be on my list now, Dan. Really, meeting you is just such an extraordinary gift, and I thank you so much. I want to, towards the end, just give you a little housekeeping, and then I do want to finish up with two surprises for Dan. The housekeeping piece is that after we are done here now, there is a reception, as space allows, for us to go to immediately afterward. The Joy of Connections and, of course, Dan Books are for sale as well. We really hope that you get your books and get them signed and you're staying. Yes?

• 53:04Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  That's fantastic. And, and again, thank you. I do enjoy, with Connected Lives, getting to know the folks who I interview, and in doing that, I do enjoy reaching out to people who are close to you. And one of your dear friends is Bob Woodruff and Lee Woodruff. And Bob and Lee introduced you to your wife, Bianca. And Bob, for you who don't know him, is a wonderful human, and he was also at ABC News for a long time. And you met him in Pakistan, I think, when you were overseas.

• 53:43Dan Harris?

  I did, I did.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  So he's known you before meditation and after.

• 53:50Dan Harris?

  Which makes me dread this video. Or whatever it is you've got.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  I just have a quote from Bob.

• 53:56Dan Harris?

  Okay, good, fine. Better.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  So this is from Bob Woodruff. "I never personally witnessed Dan being an asshole, as he describes himself. I always had a lot of fun with him, and he was a smart, good, supportive colleague. Not always something that you find in TV. But in the TV world, especially with anchors like Dan, narcissism and ego are pretty common. Dan has become the kind of friend people listen to and want to be around."

• 54:35Dan Harris?

  That's very kind. He, he was quite, unfortunately, famous for having been hit by a bomb in Iraq, nearly died, very nearly died. And after the traumatic brain injury, set me up with my wife. And as I was leaving the gym to go to my first date with Bianca in 2006, he called me and said, "Dude, she's hot."

• 55:06Speaker 01

  So, speaking of Bianca.

• 55:08Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  I did reach out to your wife. Do you know this?

• 55:11Dan Harris?

  No.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Did she tell you?

• 55:12Dan Harris?

  No.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Oh, good, good, good, good, good. Okay. So this is from your wife.

• 55:16Dan Harris?

  She did give me a big hug before I left the house and made me think, now thinking, maybe she was buttering me up or something, yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Okay. "It's hard to imagine someone more doggedly committed to self-improvement than you. The reality is that you never really needed this extensive of an overhaul. But I would be remiss to not acknowledge my good fortune as a direct beneficiary of a more expansive you. Importantly, your gift shows up outside of our home in the many ways you let humanity know that we are not alone in our suffering and stories.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  With love and gratitude, your better half..." And then she ends, "Because you still need to be kept on your toes."

• 56:16Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  "So on behalf of all of us, Dan Harris, I am so honored that you came, that you accepted my invitation, and can we all please thank Dan Harris? Thank you."

• 56:28Dan Harris?

  Thank you, thank you.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

• 56:33Dan Harris?

  Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go. If you enjoy this show, please do me slash us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute, it's free, and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely, I mean it. Thank you.