Chiwetel Ejiofor: Trauma and success can coexist! Re-learning what being strong means

Are you able to balance being resilient with being vulnerable? Actor Chiwetel Ejiofor has spent time figuring out when to keep moving forward, and when to let painful emotions wash over him. In this chat with Fearne, Chiwetel reflects on how a childhood trauma has shaped his character – everything from his fierce ambition to his optimistic outlook. He also reveals the moments self-doubt has almost proved insurmountable (including when he first got the script for 12 Years A Slave...!) Plus, is ‘acceptance’ of your past ever truly possible, or is the simple realisation that life WILL go on regardless good enough? And, do you worry you’ve let your own life pass in a blur? Chiwetel explains how he’s learnt to live in the present. Bridget Jones: Mad About The Boy is out in UK cinemas now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Lenny Henry https://pod.fo/e/1fa64d David Tennant https://pod.fo/e/271446 Norah Jones https://pod.fo/e/2336dd Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fran Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that questions what it means to be strong. Today, I'm chatting to Chiwetel Ejiofor.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  You always want to have a kind of vulnerability, I think, and sometimes resilience, or if you go through hard things and, you know, you don't want to harden up. And that's one of the things that I've often tried to be careful of, that, you know, if you have that ability, you can tap into that area of yourself and your psychology that is like, I can struggle through this, I can deal with this, you know. And you might know that you have that capacity, but I think you also have to balance that sometimes with being vulnerable, because some of it is a cover for not wanting to feel pain again.

• 1:10Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let me tell you about my day when I went to meet Chiwetel, who is in the new Bridget Jones film Mad About the Boy, which is out right now, by the way. Go and see it, it's really fun. I went to the screening of this. It felt so luxurious because I went to a screening in one of those cinemas where you get a comfy chair. Is there anything better? I hate normal cinema seats. And I was sat next to Greg James, who's one of my old pals, and we had such a lovely date, and we went at about 1pm. When have I been to the cinema in the middle of the day on like a Tuesday? Never is the answer. I loved every second of it. It was such a great experience and it was, it's a really fun film. There's some bit, Hugh Grant made me laugh out loud so many times.

• 1:52Fearne Cotton?

  So went and saw the film, then went to Claridge's, darling. Claridge's Hotel, which I've been to once before, is just the dream. It's like the most quintessentially old-school British hotel you've ever been to. It's so decadent. When you walk In there's instant, you're just met by a tea room. And then you get in a lift that's got a chair in it, a little bench you can sit on in case your legs are a bit weary. Basically, what they do at these big hotels with films like this is a press junket, where each member of the cast will be in a different hotel suite. And then you get ushered in. Think Notting Hill. You know, the bit where the horse and hound bit, where Julia Roberts is doing a press junket and Hugh Grant, yet again mentioning him, goes in to do the horse and hound chat. It's like that.

• 2:37Fearne Cotton?

  I was Hugh Grant in this case. So each celebrity is in a different, it's like a game show. Each in a different hotel suite. And then you go and meet your chosen celebrity and you get granted time with them. I mean, we had, I think, 45 minutes with Chiwetel. We were very, very lucky. Did me and Amelia from the Happy Place team wander the corridors trying to find Leo Woodall? Yes, we did. Were we successful? I hear you cry. No, we weren't. The closest we got was a cardboard billboard outside of the hotel suite. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. Chiwetel was in the most lovely mood, considering you have to sit when you do these junkets

• 3:20Fearne Cotton?

  for like a days, answering the same, I was about to say bullshit questions, because some of them will be from some of the interviewers. Not me. No, no, I hopefully not anyway. But I just loved this chat. He was in the greatest mood ever, considering he'd had to answer so many questions that week. You'll know, obviously, Chiwetel from his utterly incredible performance in 12 Years a Slave, a role that he almost didn't have the self-belief to take on, by the way, and he talks about that in this chat. What you might not know is that his dad died in a car crash when he was a tiny child, something that has obviously affected his life trajectory and outlook.

• 4:00Fearne Cotton?

  He is a very thoughtful and incredibly intelligent man, and I think he's going to give you a lot to think about today.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Granger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory, costs climb. Too little, production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need, when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 5:11Speaker 05

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at GetHumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 5:44Fearne Cotton?

  All right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

• 6:08Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, Chiu Ta. Hello. How are you today?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  I'm doing very well. How are you?

• 6:12Fearne Cotton?

  I'm really good. I'm really good. Obviously, you're in the thick of press for Bridget Jones, so imagining you're being pushed from pillar to post.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:20Fearne Cotton?

  Quite hectic.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, in a good way.

• 6:22Fearne Cotton?

  And just a lot of talking about yourself and the films. You need to go and sit in a quiet room tonight and just.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  The lights low, meditate, yeah.

• 6:33Fearne Cotton?

  It's probably needed. I mean, there is so much excitement about this film. I got to see it yesterday and I absolutely loved it. I mean, I. I was that peak age of maybe sixteen when the book came out. So it was. I did like read it straight away, love the films. Have you got a long history with loving Bridget Jones, being involved in Bridget's world?

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe from the from the films mostly. And so, but yeah, I got on the train immediately as soon as the film, the first one came out. And, you know, it was iconic and it, you know, sort of changed everything, you know, overnight in a weird way. You know, there was just this arrival of this extraordinary character. And actually, an extraordinary set of characters, I think, that you sort of were able to find yourself in a little bit, you know, in one of them or a sequence of them. And then I think it was, you know, obviously Renee and this extraordinary performance at the centre of it. That was clearly remarkable and clearly going to take everybody on a on a journey.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  And then I thought the way that it was kind of put together, you know, way that London looked, the way that.

• 7:38Fearne Cotton?

  London in this one looks divine.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Extraordinary, right?

• 7:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, the heath and the snow.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really beautiful. And I think that sits in the tradition of these of the films and. Of all of them, there's always, they always found some way of representing the city and the sort of community. And friendships, you know, just, I just feel that there's so much that was that was available to kind of relate to.

• 8:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  In the films.

• 8:05Fearne Cotton?

  It's a good advert. If you're like living in another country, maybe America, and you've never been to the UK, you'd be like, I'm literally booking now. I'm going. I want to find that little pub and watch the snowfall with the lanterns outside. Dreamy, dreamy. And it's a brilliant cast, as you've already mentioned. You've got the originals like Hugh Grant in there and Renee, but also some new young talent like Leo Woodall. Did you get to hang out much off set? Did you spend time together when you? Filming.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, a little bit because we kind of, you know, we would see each other a little bit, you know, during the day, you know, because we would sometimes be at the same location or something, but not doing a lot of the same scenes. One of the first scenes that I did was on the heath. And so it was when Bridget gets stuck in the tree.

• 8:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  And so it was great because we got a chance to sort of meet a few of the people, including Leo and the kids as well. And it was great fun, a great way to start this journey. But there wasn't that much opportunity to sort of meet everybody through that, you know, but to spend time with Leo, for example, through that.

• 9:07Fearne Cotton?

  But you're doing long, long days.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  We're definitely doing it now.

• 9:11Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I heard you on the radio this morning with Chris Evans of Leo, having an absolute riot. I mean, when you walk into Chris's studio, it's just, it's mayhem.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  It's true. It's at 11. So that's.

• 9:21Fearne Cotton?

  It is. He brings the energy and you just have to match it. And it's what you very much did. It was a really enjoyable interview. You play Mr. Wallaker, a science teacher. He is a very measured man. He's all about facts and science, which is a lovely combination compared to Bridget, who in this film particularly is even more chaotic than normal. I mean, there were a few scenes we've had kids where I was like, this is quite close to home, actually. This is very me at the moment. Would you say you're like Mr. Wallaker? Are you, do you, you like facts? You like straight lines, science? This is how we're doing things?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  I would say I'm, I guess I would err more to that side than the Bridget side. I guess more to that side than the slightly more chaotic side, but not as much as Mr. Wallaker. He's very serious. He's very sort of, you know, straight up and down like six o'clock.

• 10:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  And that's fun to, that's fun to play, you know, especially as he starts to find maybe these sort of other parts of himself as well. And these just sort of other things are kind of introduced into his worldview. And also he has, he feels this kind of sense of responsibility, maybe is the, is the wrong word, but there's something that he feels a connection with, with also with Billy and these ideas of what this family is. Is going through and they're going through quite a lot of things and maybe it's masked by some of the kind of chaotic energy of Bridget and so on, but Billy especially in the midst of all that is somebody that

• 10:51Speaker 02

  that Mr. Wallaker recognizes as as one of his students who maybe does need a little bit of help or, you know, just a little bit of a kind of um extra conversation, you know, because obviously he's dealing with a lot of a lot of things for for a young guy.

• 11:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  So that's uh that really represented to me something very interesting about Wallaker that through the through the sort of science and level headedness, there's also something that's very empathetic.

• 11:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, there's a real softness. I mean, one of my favorite scenes was where you were on the school trip and you were sat with Billy, which is Bridget's son in the film, and he's lost his dad and you had this really beautiful moment guiding him through it and and helping him through that situation. And I, knowing your own personal backstory, was really taken aback by that moment because that's something that you obviously intimately know all about, having lost your dad as a kid yourself. And I wonder in a scene like that, you know, how much do you need to or want to draw on your own personal experience to really convey that? And, you know, because I certainly felt like, God, this is extremely real, this moment. It's something you're feeling. I can see it in your eyes.

• 12:03Fearne Cotton?

  But I don't know how much you find that a necessity to do a scene like that.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Well, it's complicated, I think, uh, and it is a question. I think you always wonder, you know, uh, as an actor, how much of the kind of, I suppose, the personal math you're gonna do in a scene? And how appropriate that is, because sometimes going to a certain place might not really work if you end up sort of not really be able to continue the scene very easily because you are you're connecting with something very raw and emotional for you and um but obviously you you have to you consider those things, you know, you you you have to pull in a little bit of your own experience in into those moments, but I.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  I tend to um to try to to limit that, to be honest, to try to kind of um sort of contextualize it. You know, I like to sit within a character, you know, within a character's experience. And it's useful, I think, if I have things that I can draw on or reflect on or think about when playing a scene. But I don't want to do that too hea- I don't wanna lean into that too heavily because.

• 13:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Because in a way, it isn't about my experience, you know, it's it's about, in this instance, it's about Billy's experience. You know, and and also about Mr. Wallaker's experience, you know, which is very different to my experience. And so trying to maintain an honesty around that, I think, is is is really important.

• 13:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's very interesting, you know, because I've, I guess I've never taken too much time to think about that with actors. You know, how much of their own personal emotion is in that moment? Is it just that's why they're bloody good at their job because they can bring that out of literally thin air?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:51Fearne Cotton?

  Or is it something that you're really deeply needing to process and go through? But equally, I'm imagining you don't want to traumatize yourself or take yourself to a place where, you know, you then go home feeling all of that.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  I think it depends, you know, I think it depends. If I had written, if if the character of Mr. Wallaker was written as having had that experience.

• 14:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Say, had had an experience similar to to my experience as a person then, and then was talking to Billy in this way. So that it would make sense to bring in a lot more of the energies that I have into that into that moment. Now, I could invent that Mr. Wallaker had that, but he doesn't seem to have had that experience in that way. So he's he's sort of coming at it with Billy from a point of view of empathy, but not necessarily that he's had a parallel experience himself. Otherwise, I think he would he would say that, you know, and he doesn't. So I think you have to kind of judge when to do that and when not to and and how much of that kind of energy to release. And how how appropriate it is, or in the sense of how much it makes sense to do that, you know.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Because I've certainly had to do uh and been in situations playing characters that have paralleled much more. Directly experiences that I've had and then uh and in that sort of instance, you do tend to then uh allow that to arrive in the moment in a in a sometimes a pretty emotional way.

• 15:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Um you know, because you have to.

• 15:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a powerful thing to watch. And I think, you know, as a viewer, you can see, you can see those moments where it is so felt and real and you know, we've seen you do that on stage and in different cinematic experiences throughout time. I loved your interview that you did with Kirsty Young where, you know, you you talked about this subject in much more depth about your dad dying when you were eleven and having such a profound effect on your life and your outlook on the world. Do you think, obviously going through something like that, losing your dad, and it was in a shocking situation in a car crash. That you were also involved in. You learn from a very young age that life can be brutal, but then I guess also

• 15:52Fearne Cotton?

  in your long career that you've had and very successful one, you also have experienced a hell of a lot of abundance in in many ways and seeing that you can you know, manifest things and you can achieve goals. Would you say you're more of a pessimist or an optimist? And what would you say has informed how you see the world?

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, I definitely think I'm an optimist overall, a hundred percent, you know, I don't think I have a kind of a pessimistic outlook, really. I think that, um, I mean, I say that, um, I have, I have not with not with sort of personal matters, not in the terms of I have a lot of faith in people, you know. I don't necessarily have that much faith in in the sort of in the sort of in the world, you know, in the way that the world is kind of organised and and and run and the way.

• 16:41Fearne Cotton?

  Now more than ever.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Exactly, could be could be said, you know, the way things are kind of handled and and the way that the sort of the system sort of works and uh and doesn't work, you know, but I have a lot of faith in in people and so I have so the optimism that I have sort of comes from that, um, that that I think that there is so much inherent kind of goodness and capacity, you know, um, and people really striving. To do things and make positive impacts and I've seen. You know, I've been lucky enough to be in so many different places, so many different countries. To work with so many different people from so many different backgrounds and circumstances, you know.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  From very kind of affluent, you know, A- America and all of that to people who are really. Living in this completely different way and uh and struggling with certain things that are, you know, very. That are a sort of a, you know, about basic needs really. And when I was making my film, when I directed a film in Malawi. People there, the Malawian people there were so extraordinary as people. And extraordinarily supportive of me and the process of what we were doing and what we were trying to do. In that film and, you know, I think you have all of these moments of reacting and interacting with people. You recognize how.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Special people are, how um their perseverance, their capacity, their capacity for joy in. So many different kinds of circumstances, just the richness of soul. You know, Malawi is often talked about as the kind of warm heart of Africa and. And you really, as soon as you land there, you really recognize and feel that, feel that in in the people that you meet and. And it really tells you something about humanity. And so I feel like if you have experiences like that, this is a sort of long way of answering your question, but. If you have experiences like that, it's very hard to come away from those experiences and feel pessimistic about people.

• 18:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  You know, people are wonderful. People can be absolutely extraordinary. People are so uh so amazing. So, yes, so I am definitely optimistic.

• 18:52Fearne Cotton?

  That's a very beautiful answer. Would you say that. Going through something at such a young age like that has made you particularly resilient? And have you noticed that in yourself?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  I hope so, yeah. I hope that there's a resilience there. I I hope that it doesn't turn into, that it doesn't, you know, that you always want to have a kind of vulnerability, I think, you know, and sometimes resilience, or if you go through hard things and and sort of certain struggles, sometimes, you know, it can, you know, you don't wanna harden up. And that's one of the things that, you know, I I've often tried to be careful of, that you know, if you have that ability, you can tap into that area of yourself and your psychology that is like, I can struggle through this, I can deal with this, you know. And you might know that you have that capacity, but I think you also have to balance that sometimes with being vulnerable, because some of it is a cover for not

• 19:44Speaker 02

  wanting to feel pain again, not wanting to feel sorrow and sorrowful things, you know, and not letting that sort of thing in. Maybe because you know how hard it is, you know, but, you know, I say some things have to be kind of slightly unlearned, you know, in order to be vulnerable. And as an actor, I think specifically, you know, vulnerability and openness is really an important part of of of the of the job. So, yeah, so sometimes I have to kind of unlearn or sometimes, you know, sort of try and forget.

• 20:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, it's habit, isn't it? If you're used to from a young age, having to push through certain feelings or situations and dealing with, I mean, essentially, I'd use the word trauma. I don't know if that feels appropriate to you, because it's your story, but when you've got to deal with something like that, then you, it's it's a habit that you are used to dealing with a certain amount of pain or loss, whatever it might be.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 20:36Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm sure that's quite tricky to unpick at times.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think trauma is a good is a good is a good word, certainly traumatic. I mean, I suppose like any of those sort of words, they still now, or in recent times, it feels like they cover a lot of ground.

• 20:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, they're slightly overused. Well, trauma can be used for many things. I think yours is in the truest sense.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've certainly done a lot of heavy lifting recently. But yes, it's, you know, a traumatic experience and what that sort of means and how you reflect on it and um and and wanting to keep yourself vulnerable and open and not letting, I suppose, I guess it's. Down to just not wanting to have traumatic experiences totally define you as.

• 21:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  As a person, you know, that that you that you that you can sort of move beyond that. It's in a sense, the kinds of things that I'm that I'm talking about in this context are things that. You know, you can, in the end, you can rationalize, you know, and it's not, there's not, it's it's nothing that can be fixed. And it is part of life, you know, there are, so there are different levels of traumatic experiences, obviously. You know, it's um it's not an experience that I can, that this, that anybody is responsible for, for example. Or that anybody can be blamed for, and that's different as well, you know, that these are things that just that just happen.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  And one has to accept within that context, there were very, um there are different, obviously, there are various different things that that that happen to people. And and in a way, because it is things for me, that are things that sort of just happen. I suppose you can kind of rationalize it.

• 22:13Fearne Cotton?

  And land on acceptance, I guess, is that what the aim is?

• 22:15Speaker 02

  I think that's what I'm sort of talking about. Acceptance is a weird word, though, isn't it? I don't, I never know quite what acceptance feels like.

• 22:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Obviously, you can live on and, you know, have, you know, but I know maybe that is a form of acceptance. But I think that um I don't know if it's a word that really describes what it is trying to describe, you know. I don't think you ever completely have acceptance. It's like you just understand and rationalize, you know. Where you where you are and what it what it means and how it's changed your life. And you can find areas, obviously, there are the negative areas, but you can find how it's changed your life in ways that have. That have made you richer and certainly have made you more capable of helping somebody else. Which is always the best kind of way of coming through any sort of traumatic experiences, like how has that helped me?

• 23:10Speaker 02

  With this other person's issues and stuff.

• 23:14Fearne Cotton?

  Did it have the sort of, I guess, in my head, obvious outcome of you going, "Life is short, I'm not gonna fuck about here, there's things that I wanna do, and I'm not gonna waste time deliberating it, I'm quite urgent about things." Do you think it had that effect on you?

• 23:29Speaker 02

  For sure. I mean, naturally, it wasn't even a thought, you know, it wasn't something, it wasn't a conscious thing, it was just that that was suddenly in my behaviour, you know. And it wasn't even something that I even noticed until somebody else pointed it out, really, you know. And I think it's when you have people around you, or you, it wasn't even close friends that I had, it was when I was starting to work and travel, and then you sort of meet people who are kind of new to you, and so you're kind of presenting your energy, and maybe you get on and so you're spending time together, and then at a certain point, they're like, "What's going on?"

• 24:06Fearne Cotton?

  Who is this guy?

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, "What's happening?", you know what I mean? Like, "Why are you involved in like, 300 different things at the same time, what's going on?" And you're like, "Oh, right, maybe I'm, this is my, you know, I have this kind of personality trait at this point, because I have a kind of reaction to life, which is that you've gotta do everything, you know."

• 24:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, and to be a successful actor, the level that you're at, top of your game, that is like, one in a billion, it's so hard to get to where you're at, you know. So many people want to be in brilliant films and want to be acting in jobs that they've got the pick of, where you can read scripts and go, "Nah, I'm not doing that", so you have to have an element of urgency. I'm imagining obsession.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:48Fearne Cotton?

  Would you say that's true?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  I think, I think so. At a certain point, you know, I think it's, you know, I can reflect on it now, I suppose, because I don't feel like I sit within that quite as much anymore, but certainly as I was beginning, you know, I think it is just a complete obsession and, you know, and I think, you know, you're living out of a suitcase, you are travelling at the drop of a hat, you are going, you know, you're just always on the move, and it is always your number one priority, you know, is the work and that, that's your, that's your life, you know, and it's a, it's a total experience. You know, it's who you know, it's who you meet, it's where you work, it's how you think, it's all of the things that

• 25:30Speaker 02

  that that define you for that period of time. And it's a blur, you know, I think for me, you know, like twenties and early thirties, it's a sort of a bit of a blur because of just the amount of movement, the amount of travel, the amount of work and exciting, you know, as well and and work that you're passionate about, work that you love and, you know, it's it's extraordinary. Um, but it's total.

• 25:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  And that's that's the thing.

• 25:53Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's it's such a incredibly competitive market, if I'm going to use that word, where you know, you you have to be all in, otherwise, you know, you're you're wasting your time, quite frankly, you've got to be all in. And also, I guess, have an element of self-belief. And again, I heard you talking to Kirsty about this in a roundabout way that the benefit of being, say, nineteen, twenty is that self-belief, again, isn't even a thought, it's just, I'm gonna do this job because I want to. And then maybe as we get older, I've certainly found this, that dissipates slightly and you're a bit more questioning yourself and maybe your ability or your choices and having that slight naivety married with self-belief seems to be key, would you say?

• 26:34Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah. I think that's absolutely right. I think that you need to, um, you know, I think self-belief comes so naturally when you're when you're young, you know, this idea that I can I can do it, I can do it.

• 26:45Fearne Cotton?

  Do anything I want.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. And it is that thing. And and that, you know, you mentioned before about sort of manifesting things and that's, you know, singing in the mirror with the hairbrush is is all about that. And it's, you know, and it's why it's sort of why young people do it and why it kind of sometimes comes to pass. That they do then get to live those dreams and push those things. But if you don't have that initial spark and you don't have that initial sort of self-belief, then it then it, you know, it's like the old adage, it just can't happen. It can't happen without real kind of um, real passion behind it. And it's not something that you can tell yourself to want. You know, I think it's just, it's just there, you know.

• 27:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, obviously, with a career as long as yours, there are, of course, moments of self-doubt. And one that I was reading about very recently was And I think it was the last time I actually saw you was on the red carpet of the BAFTAs, where you won a BAFTA for Twelve Years Slave, but you were in this huge uproar about the film. You know, everyone was talking about it. You were nominated for an Academy Award. Steve McQueen had been extremely public in saying, you know, Chulhu is the only man for the job. There was never going to be anyone else play this part. And you, as an actor, obviously, wait for scripts like this to turn up. It's the pinnacle, you know, you want that to happen. And then you get the script and you're like, holy shit, am I capable of this? So that was a moment of self doubt for you.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Totally, yeah.

• 28:07Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, how do you ride that out? Because you've got to, to do a film like that, you've got to be committed in every way to, I can play this part. I am telling someone's story. I've got to do it justice.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think it was, yeah, I think that first time that I read Twelve Years Slave, I was in tears by the end of just reading it, you know, I was just sort of very emotional by the story. And, and yeah, I just thought, this is such a huge responsibility. This is such a kind of leap, you know, in terms of what I have to kind of represent and what I have to do and how, where I have to go. And I just didn't, I didn't know if it was, that I was the person, you know, that I could do it essentially. And, you know, and I, and I, and I said that to Steve, you know, and so, and it was almost that that was that, you know, that it wasn't gonna, that it wasn't gonna happen.

• 28:57Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it went that far?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, there was a kind of, and then I spoke to some other people, you know, agents. Because you're trying to then, you have to have these further conversations, right? And they were just like horrified, like, you've got to.

• 29:12Fearne Cotton?

  You're doing it.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, you've got to, you know, if you need to give yourself a good talking to, then you're just gonna have to give yourself a good talk to, because this is an extraordinary opportunity. And if you, you can't walk away from something because you love it so much, you know, it's like, you have to sort of dive into that, to that moment. You have to kind of lean into that moment. And, you know, I was just very lucky that I was able to kind of, I had another read of the book and the script, and I think it was just through the process of re-going over everything, because I was pretty determined. It wasn't a whim, you know. But it was in the process of going back over everything that something clicked for me. And, and I thought, you know, I do actually have.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  A way into this as from as myself, you know, just as a way into this character, a way into Solomon's journey that I think is the right way into it. And I feel like that's the kind of feeling you have to have. Um, you have to feel that the part is in you somehow, that it's just that it's that it's that it's really in you. And um, and once I discovered that, I think, then I was like, okay, I can, I think I'm, I can try and do this.

• 30:25Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, well, you did more than try. It was just an unbelievable performance, just unbelievable.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Granger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  Brought to you by the Capital One Saver Card. With Saver, you earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment, and at grocery stores. That's unlimited cash back on ordering takeout from home, or unlimited cash back on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite, grab a seat, and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Saver Card. Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 31:32Speaker 05

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at GetHumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal. This week on Help, I sexted my boss.

• 32:05Speaker 06

  And after taking a shower, I used some spray deodorant that belonged to his mother from the cupboard. He took a big sniff of me and says, mm, smells like sex. Cast your personal question. Yes? Do your balls ever just float back up?

• 32:18Speaker 07

  What? Burnley playing Millwall the way. I got all my brothers coming down like a Millwall. Yeah, I can't go. I'm going to a matinee of Pride the Musical.

• 32:31Speaker 06

  Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:38Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, obviously, you've connected with a whole array of characters over the years. Such a diverse career on screen and in the theatre. And your first leading stage role was playing Othello. And we've had some other Shakespearean actors on here. And I'm always completely fascinated why Shakespeare, why you're drawn to Shakespeare? Because it's complicated and there's no margin for error. Everybody knows it. You've got to nail the story. Everyone's got an opinion about how that character should be portrayed. We had David Tennant on recently. We've had Dame Harriet Walter talking about this too. What was it at such a young age? Because you were 19 when you played Othello for the first time.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, for the first time at 19 at the National Youth Theatre.

• 33:19Fearne Cotton?

  But obviously, your interest in Shakespeare started before that. Theatre really grabbed you. What was it about theatre, but more specifically Shakespeare, that really spoke to you?

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it was just that I understood, I heard it, you know? And that's, it's sort of hard to describe. And I've tried to describe it before, but it's always complicated. You know, it was Henry IV, part one, and a sort of wet Wednesday. You know, you're staring, you're half staring out the window. And we're doing Henry IV, part one, at school. And something about Hal's speech, you know, struck me. And I can't, it was sort of that there was something about what he was describing. It's a moment when Hal is talking about, you know, his future and what he's going to be and how he sort of feels that he's sort of wasting him, is wasting his life in this moment. But he has a plan for himself or the world has a plan for him somehow.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  And, and he is going to, at some point. Rise up to this, to this moment. And I feel like I was thirteen, I'm in school, I'm kind of hearing these words. And they suddenly, and you know, exactly as you say, they felt sort of Shakespearean and alien. But then suddenly they just sort of had a kind of clarity. And I was like, I feel like this, I feel like, I feel like I'm inside the experience that Shakespeare is writing about as a thirteen year old boy who does not know what is going on really, you know, and just as having these experiences, doesn't know what it's supposed to add up to, where I'm supposed to be, what I'm supposed to be thinking, what I'm gonna do, why I'm doing anything, you know.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  And, uh, and suddenly Hal is talking about this in a way, you know, from four hundred years ago or something, in a way that I understand. I went around school that week like I had discovered Shakespeare. I was like, you gotta listen to this guy. He's really, he's really interesting.

• 35:09Fearne Cotton?

  There's this new guy on the street.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  There's this new guy, he's called William, just, William Shaker, Shakespeare, something like that. He's brilliant, you know. And, uh, and people are like, yeah, he's sort of well known.

• 35:21Fearne Cotton?

  We've heard of him. But how funny. I mean, I think it's quite rare that that happens. And even now, you know, I, I saw Macbeth recently at the theatre. And I'm really, I am concentrating, like my eyes are like this, I'm ears open, listening to everyone, trying to keep up with it. Am I clever enough? And I think at thirteen, that takes a special kind of brain to go, this really makes sense to me. You know, that's extraordinary.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't know what that, it, it, it was funny because then I went down to the theatre to start, um, to audition, you know, and, uh, and, and I thought maybe it was just that piece of, uh, Henry the Fourth, you know, that had had that impact on me. And so it didn't, I felt like, well, maybe that's not something that really, it's not a general thing or something. And maybe like I don't, maybe it's just a, you know, a transient interest. So I went down to the theatre anyway. And I, you know, it's a beautiful theatre at my school, Dulwich College, and I'd, I'd never really been inside. And they were doing some auditions for, measure for measure. And so I did the audition. And again, with one of Angelo's speeches, as I started to do it, I had the same sort of feeling. I just really

• 36:28Speaker 02

  connected to what he was saying and the experiences that he was going through and the way the language was being utilized. And, and it felt like I had access to it, to this language, um, in a surprising way, in a way that seemed. I mean, easy. It seemed easy. It seemed like I, it seemed like a way of speaking and expressing um self that I, that I kind of, that I, that I got, like singing a familiar song or something, you know, that was um, that, that just, it just sort of happened and um, and

• 37:05Speaker 02

  you know, and it was under, in a, in a sense, it was sort of undeniable. That is, that other people there felt the same thing. They felt like, oh, you've really gotten access to this that it, that seems surprising, you know, just that it seems very, that it sort of comes to you very easily and um, and it, it was just because I sort of understood emotionally somehow, just what it was trying to, what it was communicating. And, and I loved what it was communicating, you know, and I loved how it was communicating it. And so I just really became for that period, you know, totally obsessed with um, with Shakespeare. I was just like, it just, I felt like I, I had sort of this connection to this, to this writer

• 37:48Speaker 02

  that um, obviously was very famous and, you know, everybody knows and, you know, but it still felt like this sort of unique kind of um, you know, so I just sort of started devouring all of, you know, all of Shakespeare's plays. I'd write quotes and Shakespearean quotes on my wall. I was, you know, fifteen or whatever, and I'd be doing like my whole walls covered in different quotes from different plays and and I'm sitting, my sister would say that I would be up there just sort of randomly doing different plays that I wouldn't be performing. You know, I wouldn't be about to perform on stage, but I would just be going through all of the plays, you know, and all of the different characters. And I just felt this really kind of, yeah. And so then I went to the National Youth Theatre and just carried on

• 38:29Speaker 02

  that, that particular journey and then also started to expand it out into, into not just classical texts, but into, you know, different um, ju- all sorts of different pieces and different theatre and I was just, it, and even that still, just there was something in the language of when it really works that. I just sort of felt like I'm really inside of this somehow. It feels like the only way that I could really understand how to just self-expression, which is a strange thing to say, but it was through other people's work in that way in theatre that I could actually talk about myself in any way and and find those ways of of of talking about my own feelings.

• 39:11Fearne Cotton?

  It's a it's a magical connection, I think, to to find that, especially as a teenager, when, you know, we're desperate to to express ourselves and tell the world who we are or try and figure it out ourselves. I'm definitely still trying to do that, but it's magical to have that that clarity at that age. But then there's the performance side, you know, especially when you're performing Shakespeare on stage. Were there nerves at that point? Or do you get stage fright even today? And how how would you mitigate that?

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't, I don't remember being that nervous then, you know, I just remember being so excited, you know, and and being just being so excited about having an opportunity to translate this feeling that I was having and actually take it out onto a stage and to and to perform, you know, and when it would work, it was amazing, you know, and there was, you know, you could just that the feeling of communication, you know, with an audience and, you know, and sort of telling telling a story and there was just this real sense of a feeling that I was in the right place, that it was that this was something that I was

• 40:20Speaker 02

  that I was that I was doing something that I really felt like this is what I should be doing right now.

• 40:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  And in a and in a time when and at an age when you can be really unsure about what you're doing and why you're doing it. Suddenly, a lot of those questions were sort of answered in those moments when I was either rehearsing or performing and

• 40:42Speaker 02

  nerves. And again, it's one of those things that nerves and sort of being, you know, being worried about things, so all of that did arrive, you know, it did happen, you know, a bit later on. But in those very early sort of teenage years, it was all kind of, it was all sort of excitement of of performance.

• 40:59Fearne Cotton?

  It's so annoying that the older you get, the more you worry. I I hate that one. I was the same. I used to do live TV at fifteen, I just felt like nothing, zero, like just fun, excitement. Now.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:12Fearne Cotton?

  Don't put me anywhere near a live TV camera. It's too risky. Well, it's like theatre. You're so exposed if something goes wrong. There's no way of covering your tracks. People have seen you mess up, say the wrong thing, forget your line, whatever. It's such risky business. Would you say you are a worrier now?

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Much more so, yeah. I mean, I am, I am. It's something that as soon as it began to happen with any frequency, sort of nerves and intensity of nerves, it's now something that I was able to kind of analyse, you know, so that I could try and sort of get on top of a little bit, you know, just to kind of break down like what's actually happening, like why do I feel this way? What is this anxiety really fuelled by, you know, because I, you know, I have as much passion and love for the thing. I'm not as worried about how people kind of receive certain things, especially if I feel within it that the work is, is strong. So what, what is it really that's creating some of the kind of neurosis around it, you know?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  And then I suppose, understanding a little bit of that, which is, as you get older, sometimes nothing to do with performance itself. It's, it's really about all of the other aspects of your life and all of the other ways in which you feel that you either have or haven't let yourself or other people down, you know, and how that's re-manifest. And it's always the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, you know, and that fear that, you know, you're going to prove some aspect of your personality by failing at something that you knew was present in some other aspect of your personality that you want to sort of punish yourself for. And there's, there's all of that that comes with just getting older, I think, and just having,

• 42:51Speaker 02

  and not being, you know, perfect and having to figure out certain things and making mistakes or stepping on toes or, you know, just having all of those situations and circumstances that goes into being a person.

• 43:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  And, and being an imperfect person. And, and so then you can bring a lot of that stuff in to a sort of punitive sense of, you know, your own neurosis. And of course, I think a lot of that is natural ultimately, you know, and, and you can't kind of go back to. The sort of pure essence of being a teenager and.

• 43:25Fearne Cotton?

  Such a shame.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  I mean, it is, but also.

• 43:28Fearne Cotton?

  With a wise head.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Exactly. You carry with you all of the other things of of life and all of the other incredible experiences, amazing experiences um that that you have. And so that's the sort of that's the sort of balance. But what I try and do now is separate all of those things. It's just try to understand what is interrupting something when it's happening. And if I can clear that out a little bit, then I do find that I can have a tiny bit of that sort of that sort of artistic clarity, which which does ultimately produce the best work.

• 44:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:04Fearne Cotton?

  We've all got to learn our own bespoke way of just mitigating that voice that's in our head, that's, you know, creating the worries and the narratives and driving the anxiety. It's, you know, I think the better we get at that, the easier everything certainly becomes. Um I would love to end by asking you, Chiwetel, where is your happy place, either actually or figuratively?

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Where is my happy place? I think, you know, it's sort of, I guess, it's a cliche naturally. But, you know, to be around the people that you love, you know, is is um is very, very, very comforting. And, you know, that sense of of home. I spent a lot of time in, you know, travelling, you know, just as I was saying, for the first kind of few, you know, for a long time, a couple of decades of my working life, you know. It was sort of a lot of movement, a lot of travelling. And and I felt as I would, you know, open another suitcase somewhere, or even if I was trying to spend a few months or six months or eight months, ten months,

• 45:10Speaker 02

  I would always feel a little bit like I was on on a holiday from my life, that my real life was happening somewhere else. My real life was actually happening in London, you know, and and I was kind of having experiences that were just sort of not really part of my real life, that I was, you know. And it always made me feel slightly um just sort of dislocated and sort of uncomfortable in a way. And having done that for so long. Now I feel like I'm in my life, you know, which is a sort of strange thing to say, but it's a but it's a true feeling. I feel like I'm actually honestly experiencing my life and in in real time and and that makes me happy.

• 45:50Fearne Cotton?

  Well, that is a bloody lovely answer and it's been so great to talk to you today. Good luck with all the other press that you've got to do and no doubt travelling. Chiwetel, thank you so much.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Pleasure. Thank you.

• 46:02Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Chiwetel, what a bloody lovely man. I just loved every second of that chat. And Chiwetel has a sort of act away, you know, he's had such an incredible career. I could have allowed myself to get quite overwhelmed and intimidated by his presence, but he was so delightful from the minute he walked in, saying hello to the whole Happy Place team, making himself at home in our little makeshift studio and just being a delight. I loved, loved, loved that conversation. Bridget Jones, Mad About the Boy is out in UK cinemas right now. Now, next week on the show, a conversation I've been teasing a lot in passing over the last few weeks because I quite frankly cannot stop thinking about it. It's going to make you rethink everything you think you know about your body image.

• 46:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, this is a good chat. Do you follow us on Instagram? P S. It's at Happy Place Official. That is the place where you can find out ahead of time who is coming on the show and what they might be talking about. Right, lovelies. Until next week, a massive thanks again to Chiwetel, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you because you're the bloody best.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One Travel Credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 48:35Speaker 05

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at GetHumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.