Jamie Laing on fatherhood, family, loneliness, and male body image

Broadcaster and entrepreneur Jamie Laing had big fears about having kids... and yet he’s about to become a dad any day now. In this chat with Fearne, Jamie’s honest about the pros and cons he deliberated over before deciding to have children. He talks through how his parents’ divorce expanded his world in beautiful ways, as well as why he chose to re-kindle his relationship with his dad as an adult. Jamie also talks for the first time about his body image and eating disorder. Given Fearne has been through her own experience of bulimia, Jamie looks to her for advice on how to break free from the shame that’s gripped him for much of his life. Jamie can now say he genuinely likes himself, but explains how throughout his teens and twenties he felt a real need to be popular, liked, and validated by others. How did he learn to cultivate self-compassion in his thirties? And what does he reckon is the best way to get men to open up to their mates? Jamie’s book, Boys Don’t Cry, is out now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Erling Kagge https://pod.fo/e/15f50 Emily English https://pod.fo/e/29a28a Ben West https://pod.fo/e/29cbdf Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that gives you permission to be your absolute full self. Today, I'm chatting to Jamie Laing.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  It's hard for me to say, but I had an eating disorder, for sure. I went to a therapist and when I told the therapist what was happening, I had to cover my eyes and sex, I was too embarrassed about it. But there were moments in my twenties where I wouldn't keep my food down because it was just a complete control thing. And it was a secret that I had. I find it pretty shameful.

• 1:06Fearne Cotton?

  So, I've had a right shit week. And I'm not saying that for any sympathy at all, I'm saying it because I know many of you listening will have had a shit week too, and it's quite normal. It doesn't make it any better, but we're all in this together. But sometimes amongst the shit, there are little glimmers still. And I had one really lovely evening the week just gone. I went to the Royal Geographical Society, bet you weren't expecting I was going to say that, to watch my friend Arling Kager do a talk. Now, Arling's actually been on Happy Place many moons ago, you'd have to scroll back in the archives to find that episode. But basically, he's just this amazing Norwegian explorer who was the first person to reach the North Pole, the South Pole and Everest unaided.

• 1:51Fearne Cotton?

  And it was so beautiful. A lot of it was around having a sense of adventure, et cetera. But one thing really, well, two things really stayed with me. One, I've already talked about on Instagram, so you can go and have a look on my Instagram. The other thing that has stayed with me, right at the end of the talk, he said, everybody needs to find their North Pole. And what he meant by that was that that for him was this big goal. And he was deeply curious about what it would be like to reach the summit. And he had it in his sights and he was working towards it. Not with any expectation that it would fix all his problems or that he would be a better person because of it. But he had this goal in mind and he did it, he accomplished it.

• 2:37Fearne Cotton?

  And I love that thought, like have your own version of reaching the North Pole. What is your North Pole? What are you curious about? What are you massively excited about, intrigued about? What challenge do you wanna set yourself? I don't have the answer to my own even yet, but it's something that I'm really enjoying thinking about. I love that. Um, so like, should we talk about the wonderful Jamie Laing? Oh, I love Jamie. Now, I'm good mates with Jamie and I can tell you now, he is one of the most hilarious. He's honestly one of the funniest people I've, I know. Whenever I go out for dinner with him, I cry. You know, when you're laughing and no noise comes out, that sort of laughter. He's so lovely, he's so funny, he's so generous, he's so kind.

• 3:22Fearne Cotton?

  He's just a bloody good egg. Of course, most of you will know him from Made in Chelsea, but he's gone on to have a brilliant broadcasting career, podcasting career. He's got his company Candy Kittens, which is absolutely thriving. And he's written a brilliant book, Boys Don't Cry, which I really loved reading. It's all about Jamie unpicking how to be the kind of man he's proud of instead of the one society expects him to be and other men. We chat about all sorts in this chat, it's a real deep dive. We talk about his excitement and fear around becoming a dad imminently. He's about to have a baby any minute, so that was a really wonderful and very honest conversation to have on both parts from me and him.

• 4:05Fearne Cotton?

  We talk about his changing relationship with his dad, which is really powerful, actually. That was a really powerful bit. And we talk about body image and eating disorders for men, something we've never talked about on Happy Place before. We've covered eating disorders to some degree, but not from a male perspective. And this is interesting because Jamie, in this chat you'll hear, is currently feeling about as to how comfy he is talking about this for the first time. And it's early days for him. And you know, I went through a similar thing. And again, you'll hear this in the chat. I used to feel deeply uncomfortable talking about having had an eating disorder.

• 4:44Fearne Cotton?

  So I'm hoping that I guided Jamie through this in the best possible way because I totally get it. But my God, he is very honest and shows vulnerability and is a great storyteller. So I know you're going to love this one.

• 5:03Speaker 03

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• 5:33Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 5:34Speaker 04

  And Maisie Adam.

• 5:35Fearne Cotton?

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 5:37Speaker 04

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 5:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 5:40Speaker 04

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 5:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 5:56Fearne Cotton?

  You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 6:06Fearne Cotton?

  Now, look, I promise we'll get to Jamie in just a second, but can we talk about the latest Happy Place edit box? Oh, my God, I love it so much. It's a sanctuary box. It's a box full of beautiful products that we sell on our Happy Place market that allow you to create your own sanctuary at home. And also, the sanctuary idea was hotly requested by you lot. We asked you what you wanted next and you gave us amazing feedback and we've created, hopefully, your dream box, you wonderful Happy Place community. We've handpicked a selection of products that are going to provide you with everything you need for real gorgeous, gentle evening ritual. We've got body butter in there, we've got sleep mist. Raw chocolate, tea, the lot.

• 6:49Fearne Cotton?

  And the contents are worth over £100, but it can be yours, this whole edit box, for £29.99. What a bargain, excuse me. Just head to happyplaceofficial.co.uk and you can get yours there. Exciting. Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  You ready for this?

• 7:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, come on then, shall we do it?

• 7:35Fearne Cotton?

  Jamie Laing, how have you not been on Happy Place before?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  No, no. I'm excited, I'm nervous. You've got a big book in front of you.

• 7:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm a professional. I do like notes.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  So there's notes in that book?

• 7:46Fearne Cotton?

  There's notes on every person I've interviewed, but I've got like 10, 15 of these at home.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  No, you don't.

• 7:51Fearne Cotton?

  So I look back on them one day and go, oh, look at all these cool people that I've interviewed.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Okay, but just tell me just quickly, why do you, why do you write? Because there are like such things as like, there's, the modern day have like tablets, right? So someone could do-

• 8:02Fearne Cotton?

  No, I don't like that.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  You don't like that?

• 8:03Fearne Cotton?

  No, pen and paper, because also the process of writing it ingrains it into my mind. So I remember the flow of it. Not that I'm going to stick to that, but it will, my brain will go, oh, remember you wrote this thing? And it will jump to that. That's how I work.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  That's how you compose it?

• 8:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Okay, tell me, who's been your best guest ever?

• 8:21Fearne Cotton?

  Can I just remind you that I'm interviewing you today?

• 8:22Speaker 02

  I know, but I just really want to know. I really want to know.

• 8:25Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what? I've had lots of brilliant people. I'd say Dawn French, always a fave.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 8:29Fearne Cotton?

  Patrick Gagné, who's a sociopath, who was fascinating to chat to. Hillary Clinton, shit myself, never been so scared.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:37Fearne Cotton?

  Bjorn Nippon-Coe-Lindblad, who is this amazing monk. I mean, just so many great people.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Okay, I've asked you this, but I want, who would you love to interview? Let's put it out there, so then they may watch this.

• 8:48Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, who have we not had on that's on my, oh, uh, Reese Witherspoon. And I would like her on her own and I wanna talk like, business chat with her.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Hello sunshine.

• 8:57Fearne Cotton?

  How have you done it? How have you done it? She's so incredible. So I would love her.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Could you, you should message her.

• 9:04Fearne Cotton?

  What, DM Reese Witherspoon?

• 9:06Speaker 02

  You should DM, do you not, do you not, do you not DM people?

• 9:09Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, here and there, but not Reese Witherspoon. It would be lost, surely, in millions of...

• 9:15Speaker 02

  I think if Fern Cotton...

• 9:17Fearne Cotton?

  She doesn't know who I am.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  She would do.

• 9:19Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:20Fearne Cotton?

  Jamie, don't be insane.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  I promise you, she'll know exactly who you are.

• 9:25Fearne Cotton?

  No, no she will not.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Reese Witherspoon will.

• 9:28Fearne Cotton?

  Course she won't. I'm just a random human in London. No, I, I, I mean, I'll do it as an experiment, see if she DMs back, how about that?

• 9:37Speaker 02

  I think you should do that. So you don't DM your guests? You don't, that's...

• 9:40Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  You don't do that? That's what I do.

• 9:43Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I did at the start. I asked, I text Dawn French, I went, will you come on the podcast? And she said, what's a podcast?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  You like drawing?

• 9:50Fearne Cotton?

  Then I went to her house. But then I kind of stopped doing that after about three series and now I'm much more professional about it.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  I, I DM people.

• 9:56Fearne Cotton?

  Like who? Who have you DM'd?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Oh my god, like, like every, so many different people. And then what happens is, is that to get them on my podcast, I DM them and lots of times they don't reply. Because they have better things to do, right? And then I end up like, meeting them.

• 10:10Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's so awkward.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  And they know I've DM'd them and I know I've DM'd them, right? And I still act like nonchalant, I'm like, hey. Hey, how are you? Um, I love your stuff, man. And then just, this is freak.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  There is like, there's one singer in particular, who I've really been trying to get on for a long time. Well, I don't know, I, I'm not gonna say it, cause honestly, I think she has like, in her head, but like a restraining order, like...

• 10:36Fearne Cotton?

  Reece Ora?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  No, it's not Reece Ora. But I've been trying to get her on, she's quite a young, up and coming singer, she's amazing.

• 10:41Fearne Cotton?

  Really young?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  No, but I did try and get her as well.

• 10:45Fearne Cotton?

  You're just serial DM.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, serial.

• 10:47Fearne Cotton?

  Slipping into DM. DMs left, right and centre.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Constantly. And she didn't reply and I did it quite a few days, she didn't reply. And then she was meant to come on the Radio 1 show to like, do like a promotion. And then she decided not to do that because I think it was being too awkward for her. So she went on a different show on Radio 1. So I might stop DMing people.

• 11:05Fearne Cotton?

  This might be a sign. Now we've processed it in this kind of deep therapy session.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not gonna do it.

• 11:09Fearne Cotton?

  I think maybe.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna stop doing it. I don't think it's a good thing to DM people. They don't really wanna see that. And in my head, I'm thinking, well, they'll reply.

• 11:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Course they'll reply.

• 11:19Fearne Cotton?

  They all know who I am, let's go.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  They freaking know who I am.

• 11:21Fearne Cotton?

  Send them a pack of candy kittens, we're done.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  I can get you some sweets, come on.

• 11:25Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I didn't even text you to ask you on here. This was done in a professional, in a professional capacity.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 11:31Fearne Cotton?

  My people talking to your people, et cetera. But mainly because you've got a book out.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Oh, straight in.

• 11:36Fearne Cotton?

  Straight in. You're gonna be like psychoanalyzing my interviewing. But I text you last week because I was reading your book at home and so much of it. Well, first of all, so much of it is so helpful and I'll get to those parts in a moment. But also I learned a hell of a lot about you. And you know, we hang out, I know you, but there was stuff that I really didn't know about you. And again, we'll, we'll cover as much of it as we can.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  And you can ask me anything.

• 12:00Fearne Cotton?

  I know, you're very, very open, as am I. So we can, this can be like a two-way chat.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Okay, I love that.

• 12:05Fearne Cotton?

  Because we've got a lot in common, actually, in ways that you may know, you may not know. But this is a really interesting time in your life because you are about to become a dad for the first time and you've written this book for your future child slash children to help them through life and to guide them. How are you feeling about embarking on the fatherhood journey?

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Like, I'm so excited but really nervous because it's like a scary thing. Like fatherhood is like a really scary thing. Like parenthood in general is just a really scary thing. And for so long, I didn't, I didn't know if I wanted to become a parent. I didn't know if I wanted to be a dad. I kinda liked waking up in the morning and just thinking about going to the gym or walking to work or like whatever. Yeah, that's gone.

• 12:49Fearne Cotton?

  That's gone.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Totally gone. Like that, like in one second.

• 12:53Fearne Cotton?

  In a day.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Gone, totally gone. And so I was like really excited about those, like that's how, what my life was, so I quite liked it. And then Sophie is very maternal. She always wanted kids, so I knew this conversation was gonna come up at some point with her. And when it started, I was like nervous about it because just of just lots of reasons. I was just nervous about all the things that people think. And to the point where I thought at one point I was gonna say to her, look, I don't know if I wanna go down this road. Because there are so many variables.

• 13:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  What happens if I'm not a good dad? What happens if my baby is not okay? What happens if something happens to them that I can't control? What happens if Sophie and I divorce? What happens if we have a problem? I thought all these variables I was so worried about. So in my head, I go, well, instead of having a problem thinking about all those things, I don't have to do it. And in my head, I was going, okay, to have a kid, to to become a parent, I have so many notes. To not be a parent, I have no notes. I can just continue. And I've said this before, but I had a conversation with, firstly, I sat next to someone at a dinner party. And they said this amazing thing to me. They said, I said, do you have kids? And she said, yes. I said, do you love it? Like you do in conversations at dinner. And she said, no, I don't.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  And I went, huh? She went, I find it really hard, impossibly hard. I'm a single mum. I find it really hard, but I love my baby more than anything. And for me, I wanted to experience every corner of the earth. And in order to do that, I feel like I have to have kids. And that kind of struck a chord with me. And I, that may be true to some people, may not be true to some people.

• 14:31Fearne Cotton?

  Also, hats off, because I love that she had that honest answer. Because I think people are very nervous to say, I find parenting incredibly difficult. Or actually, a lot of it is unenjoyable or mundane. And all these things can be true alongside the fact that you love your kid more than anything. You would do anything for your kid.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 14:48Fearne Cotton?

  But people are waiting for some horrible feedback from that honesty of like, well, you're lucky to have kids, whatever. Yeah, like two things can be true. I'm really lucky to have kids, but it's fucking hard, you know? And I love that she was so honest.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  She was really honest. And that was kind of an amazing moment. And then I spoke to my dad and I had a big conversation with him. And my dad and I have become really close over like, especially over the recent years. He's just the best. And he said, I said to him, you know, dad, what do you think about having kids? And he paused and he said, well, I. Hadn't had kids, I wouldn't be having this conversation. And I kind of thought, I thought, okay, when I get to 90 years old, right, hopefully, and I'm in my rocking chair and maybe.

• 15:24Fearne Cotton?

  I thought you were in a rocking chair.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  I'm in a rocking chair on a porch. Yeah, I'm in a rocking chair, obviously, that I'm in a rocking chair. Or like, or an ice bath and Sophie's there and we're like hanging out or whatever. I kind of want to look, you, you don't want to look back at life and think, I wish I'd done that.

• 15:41Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  You don't, and I remember I heard a podcast with Stephen Fry and he was asked, is there anything he regrets in life? And he said, well, we had a conversation about having kids once and we didn't do it. And sometimes I think, wouldn't it be nice to have done that? And so part of me doesn't want to go to the end of my life and go, kind of maybe would have been nice to do that. I don't know if we regret it or not, but kind of just want to really, I want to ride that roller coaster as much as I can.

• 16:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and you know, I think it's really sensible that you're approaching it with such caution because many people don't, I don't think I did.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Did you find out?

• 16:11Fearne Cotton?

  I just dived into it. I mean, I find parenting, it's the most beautiful, exceptional experience and it is so hard. It's so hard. There's no getting around it. There's no parent out there that could sit there and honestly say, parenting is so easy. Piece of cake, like just breeze through every day. Because they're kids and obviously it's, you're dealing with different emotional issues going on or practical issues going on. Or, you know, certainly when they're little, it's just an onslaught of practical, quite mundane things that you're in a cycle of. And that doesn't last forever. Everything's a phase, but it's incredibly hard, but so fulfilling and beautiful.

• 16:49Fearne Cotton?

  And it's so hard to put to words what it is, kind of everything, but I think roller coaster is right.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  But you also, you're just, ah, it's really an um and down. But you also, you're a bit like, we overthink things, right, occasionally.

• 17:03Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  So how do you stop overthinking about your kids?

• 17:06Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I don't, I don't, I really, really don't. And I think, you know, my son is turning 13 in the new year. So that's this, you know, new phase of, you know, him being a little independent guy. He's going to want to go out on his own and I've got to start letting go a bit and. Even now, he's like at the school gates, don't talk to me, don't kiss me, just don't hug me, just walk away. And I'm like, okay, bye, have a great day, you know, we're at that point. Whereas my daughter is still hugging me and loving me.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 17:33Fearne Cotton?

  But it's that push, you know, pushback, we all did it to our parents.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:37Fearne Cotton?

  What I, and this is what I text you about, I loved that you, you know, I, I do worry about my kids like every parent does. Especially they've had a lot of change this year. And you talk about your parents getting a divorce.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:48Fearne Cotton?

  And how that impacted you as a kid and how that might be informing some of your worrying and your anxiety around parenthood. But like you say, you've now got this amazing relationship with your dad and you, you didn't back then.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Hmm, no, I didn't back then. And it because my, I got, my parents got divorced when I was like eight years old. And my, in fact, my, I have two older sisters, Tash and Gem, and they're amazing, right? And they already came from my dad's first marriage. So I kind of was aware of like this thing which was divorce.

• 18:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  I was aware of it, right? And as a kid, that was like quite a scary thing because you just want your parents to be together the whole time. And so my big fear in life was the fact that my parents were going to get divorced. I always used to say, you're going to get divorced, are you going to get divorced? And I don't know why that was, but I remember saying that the whole time. And so when my parents did get divorced, it was like, well, of course this was going to happen. It was like everything that I had feared was going to happen had then suddenly come true, which was really upsetting, but I buried it like big time. And of course then what happens is that you go through life like thinking one side is more right than the other or the other side is more right than the other. And actually what you realise is firstly, I think when people get divorced firstly, it's a really brave thing.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  I think it's like insanely brave because a lot of people don't and they stay very unhappy. And they stay in their relationship because they think it's good for the kids or they think it's good for whatever. Or they don't want to feel embarrassed or ashamed or whatever these things that they feel. But actually, you kind of get one life and you've got to live it to the max. And you've got to be careful about who along the way is getting upset. But also, if you're unhappy in a situation, you're going to create a circle of unhappiness around you. And I actually, at the end of the day, sort of applaud my dad for saying it just wasn't going to work out. And now, looking back, my mum remarried, she's happier than ever, right? In this amazing relationship with my stepfather, who's incredible.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  My stepfather has been chairman of my candy kids business, he's one of my biggest mentors in life.

• 19:52Fearne Cotton?

  So great.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  The most amazing guy. So he has taught me everything I need to know about business, like literally everything I need to know. So if that divorce had never happened, I would have never met him. He'd never been part of my life. Maybe I never would have started a business, maybe I wouldn't be an entrepreneur, who knows? And then my dad remarried someone called Katia, who is the most creative, just the most amazing person. They had a little boy called George, who's my little brother. He's one of my best friends in the world.

• 20:16Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's so gorgeous.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  And so out of that kind of chaos and out of that upset, the brilliance happens. And my dad and I have the most amazing, he's the best guy in the world.

• 20:24Fearne Cotton?

  And what age do you think you started to have this broader, I guess, more adult perspective? Because obviously, when you're a kid, like you say, you just want everything to be as it was. But when you get to adulthood, maybe you start seeing people as humans rather than parents. I certainly have that realisation.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think it was in my twenties, I started to realise. I think like teens, you're just like floating around, whatever, you're not really thinking about things. And then I think you start to become aware. It's like you eat the apple and you suddenly become aware of stuff. And I suddenly became aware of like feelings and emotions and like consciousness and like being awkward and all these different things. And probably in my twenties, I suddenly was like, oh, hang on a second. Like, I started to realise that perhaps I hadn't been as friendly to like maybe my parents or like to my dad in particular. But I was stubborn, so I didn't really admit it. I just, in my twenties, I did a couple of things that I just wasn't proud of. Like, I spoke ill of my parents in like an article once, or my dad, I spoke badly of him.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  And he, you know, he sent me a letter and he wrote me a letter and he, he had the article. And I, and you know, imagine that, imagine your parents only seeing you've done an article about you. And my dad, by the way, he never, ever spoke ill of my mum ever. He never said anything bad against her ever. I've never heard him say anything, ever in his entire life. Right. And my mum, not really either, but my mum more is very dominant and, oh god, and you know, I had to be the single mum and bring you guys. You know, all these sorts of things, which is totally fair because she was hurting. But my dad, um, he just, he sent me an article. It was the article I did, had done and he had just written on the article, said, I'm so sorry, I'm such a disappointment.

• 22:02Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've actually never told anyone that, I don't think. And he, and he wrote that on it and it was just on the thing and I just thought, I just thought, man, I'm, you know, that's my dad.

• 22:13Fearne Cotton?

  And do you think he wrote it meaning sorry or he wanted to call you out on it?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  I think he wanted to say that he was sorry. My dad's like, he's very, he can't, he finds it hard to be emotional. He really can't go there for whatever reason, maybe his childhood, whatever, but he can't go there. But, um, it was him basically probably say, I'm sorry, but also to say, I think he was hurt. And so it was a bit like, I think it was him saying, you, you don't know this, you never know the true sides of both. You don't know both sides. You don't know the true story. So if you just say things, it's really hurtful and I'm sorry that you have that. I, I represent all these things that you said.

• 22:53Fearne Cotton?

  And that catalyzed a conversation.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  And then we didn't talk, we didn't, we still didn't talk for ages. And the reason we spoke for, I'm not kidding, the reason is Amol Rajan came on my podcast. This is no, we became, we were much closer and things like that. But the first time we had a proper conversation is Amol Rajan came on my podcast and he was dealing with grief. Well, he was, he, his dad passed away and he was talking about grief and he was saying how tough it is. And he turned to me and he said, um, what would, what would you say if your dad came up to you and said he had three weeks to live? And I was like. I got really like taken aback by it because I wasn't expecting him to say that. And I was like, oh my god, um, and I couldn't get my words out and I started getting, you know, to the point where you actually get too emotional. I was a bit like, oh my god, I was like, oh god, this is actually not professional anymore.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Like, I was almost like, oh god.

• 23:42Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's a good thing.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  And he said, look, okay, hold on, do you know what you have? You have this gift, it's time. You have this gift of time where you can talk to your dad about things. And I thought that's amazing. And so I, you know, I just said, sent my dad a message and just said, you're the greatest dad ever. I know you know that over the recent years, but you really are, you're the best thing ever. And I think that's like a real like thing in life. I think, I think it's really important to try and heal wounds. And there's a, there's a German saying, which we, which is never leave sand in the machine. Which is make sure this life, this machine, which is life, make sure you get rid of the sand. Because it only really hurts the machine, which is you.

• 24:21Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  So you kind of got to try and clear all that as much as you can.

• 24:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's not fun to be lugging around resentments or regrets or bad feelings towards another person.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Were your parents together?

• 24:34Fearne Cotton?

  Fix it. They're still together now, yeah. They're still together now, which I think has probably informed a lot of my feelings around divorce personally. And, you know, how that is affecting my kids. And that's why it was so comforting to read your adult perspective, coming from a family that was actually already blended by the time you were born. Which, you know, my kids have got older step siblings, which is a beautiful relationship they've got. And I'm so glad of it. But it, it was very comforting to sort of see if you fast forward, you know, what can happen.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  And I want to tell you, and I really want to tell you that, like, I promise you.

• 25:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Because you are, I, I, I know like the, the surface of you. I don't know the deeper, deeper you, but I think I'm quite, I'm like, what is like, you got the, on the earth, you got the crust and then you got the membrane. I don't know what you got. And it's whatever the layers are, but I think I'm a little bit in, right?

• 25:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  For sure. You're such a wonderful person, truly you are. And if, as a friend, you feel that, I can't imagine what you feel as a son or a daughter.

• 25:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, look, we all try our best, don't we? We have good days, we have bad days. I think the one thing that I stick to is if I am having a ratty morning where I know it's gonna be a busy day and I'm rushing on the school run and Rex has left his, you know, organiser at home and we're halfway to school or whatever and I'm a bit cross, I will always apologise. So if I mess up, I will always say, do you know what? I'm really sorry that I was ratty in the car, I've got a lot on. And I'll just be really honest with them about why I'm ratty. You know, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, I'm racing from place to place. And actually, what I've seen the return is, if, like, say Rex is that pre-teenage now.

• 26:23Fearne Cotton?

  He'll, you know, he'll get ratty with me and go, oh, don't go away, like, leave me alone, I don't want you to be near me. And he will always apologise by the end of the day, every time. And so I'm not perfect, I mess up constantly, but I think because I'm showing them that you can mess up but you should always say sorry.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 26:42Fearne Cotton?

  Hopefully, I mean, you don't know how your decisions are gonna impact your children, but I, you could just do your best, that's all you can do.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Have you, have you spoken about your separation?

• 26:52Fearne Cotton?

  No, not really. And I wouldn't want to go too into it yet, I don't suppose. I think, you know, it's not like it's a secret, it's been in the bloody papers, because everything is in the papers, so you can't avoid it. So people know. But I think I really wanna respect everybody else in this situation as much as I can. But I think it's, you know, it'd be unusual for me not to be worried about my children in this situation. I think there's many other parents who feel the same and worry about, it might not even be separation. It might be moving location from where you live to another place, another country. You know, all these things that we know impact children.

• 27:32Fearne Cotton?

  But actually seeing resilience that's built or, you know, the storytelling like you've got in your book down the line. It's just, it's really bloody.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  And also, I think parents just constantly think that they're messing their kids up the whole time. You just think you're doing things wrong.

• 27:45Fearne Cotton?

  Our generation, the first generation, I think, to really go, oh, we know this stuff. Psychology, you know, authors keep telling us. That's not our parents are just like, oh, well, let's hope for the best and crack on with it. I think our generation are driving ourselves mad. We're like overthinking every word we say, everything we do.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Which is almost too far.

• 28:06Fearne Cotton?

  Too far. We need to swing back a little bit. The pendulum needs to come back a bit.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  It needs to go a bit more. When I said to my mum that I've written this book, she was like, she was like, but why do you just not talk about things like that? And I was like, fair enough.

• 28:20Fearne Cotton?

  That's so good.

• 28:26Speaker 05

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• 29:25Speaker 02

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem.

• 29:29Speaker 06

  I'm William Hanson.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  I'm Jordan North.

• 29:31Speaker 06

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 29:36Speaker 06

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexed My Boss.

• 29:46Speaker 06

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:51Speaker 06

  Just search Sexed.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 29:58Fearne Cotton?

  I question myself a lot. I wonder if you feel like this. I'm writing a book at the moment and part of me is like, why do I need to do this?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, why?

• 30:06Fearne Cotton?

  There are many reasons. One of them is, and I'm not gonna be as like, I can't class myself as this like purely benevolent person that just wants to help others. That's fucking bullshit. Part of me hopes that the storytelling is useful and that other people go-

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Agreed, yes.

• 30:21Fearne Cotton?

  "Oh my god, I felt like that." That is def- that's gotta be a driving force.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 30:25Fearne Cotton?

  Also, and I wonder if you feel like this purely about the book, you wanna set yourself the challenge of, can I do this? Like, can I get these feelings put down on a page? Can I make sense of them?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 30:37Fearne Cotton?

  And then a bit of it, I don't fucking know. Why am I doing this?

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, no, you've nailed it.

• 30:42Fearne Cotton?

  Why am I doing this?

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, you've nailed it. I think one is that that driving force is like, yeah, hopefully this would help people, which is a really like great feeling that you have.

• 30:49Fearne Cotton?

  But it's not a hundred percent the story.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  No!

• 30:51Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  And anyone who says, "I have done this because I just..."

• 30:54Fearne Cotton?

  Fuck off.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, come on. Let's just be honest. It's not just because of that.

• 31:00Fearne Cotton?

  No!

• 31:00Speaker 02

  It's not just because of that.

• 31:01Fearne Cotton?

  It can't be!

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Tell me. The second thing is, is like challenging yourself is really important.

• 31:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  You've got to like, and everyone always says, "Oh, I take risks." But it's like, do you take risks? Like, do we really, do you really take a risk? And writing a book and putting yourself in that is actually genuinely taking a risk.

• 31:16Fearne Cotton?

  It's so risky. Or you're shitting yourself. Like, I shit myself every time I release a book.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  It's just like-

• 31:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's so scary.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really actually quite scary. And you're right. And the third bit is like, okay, but why then? I don't really know what the other-

• 31:29Fearne Cotton?

  Why do we do any of this? Why are we talking about this stuff publicly on microphones? Why are we writing books? I wonder-

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Because I think it gives us a purpose. And I think it gives us a reason. I think in life, like, my brother, my little brother, George, I spoke about, sent me a message this morning and he was asking for advice. And he said, "I'm thinking about what I want to do in life. And it seems like you're doing some really amazing things," is my older brother. "Can you just give me some advice? Because my mum, my stepmother, said that she wanted to do a lot of things and she ended up doing nothing, really." And he doesn't want, he wants to make sure that he focuses. And I said to him, "Yeah, that's a really good point. Is that if you start to do lots of different things, you probably end up doing nothing." And he said, "Well, you do a lot of things." And I sort of went, "I do, but I think mainly what we do is we like entertaining."

• 32:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  And whether that's entertaining on audio, or it's entertaining on visuals, or entertaining in a book, or connecting, we like entertaining connecting.

• 32:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  And so ways that we can connect or entertain, and if we can do that both, man, that's like the greatest combination.

• 32:30Fearne Cotton?

  But how much of that is dependent on the outside validation? Because that's the bit that I have to really weigh up is, like, I posted something on Instagram this morning that I felt like I wanted to say, and I'm not even sure why, but I was like, these are some lessons I've learned this week, and they feel like they've impacted me greatly, and I would like to share them. But then I have to, after I posted the video, watch that I'm not going, oh, I wonder if blah blah's put a comment, I wonder what people are saying about this. And I have to stop at, don't look for the validation bit. Or if you're looking, just know that it's almost meaningless. You don't have to have that feedback. Do you consider, because obviously.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Man, it's hard.

• 33:14Fearne Cotton?

  Even being on Made in Chelsea, you know, you're, and you write about this in the book, the reality of being on a reality show is so different to what we could imagine. Or maybe we've got a loose idea, but for you, it was this heightened sense of insecurity.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:28Fearne Cotton?

  A hyper-focus and awareness on things you didn't even feel were flaws before you were on the TV.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:33Fearne Cotton?

  And then also looking for outside validation. It's a huge part of it.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Oh, it's, it's everything, you know, so I did, I started Made in Chelsea when I was like twenty-two years old, and I didn't really, like, it was, because I, because when you're young, you don't really understand what you're feeling or your emotions, but I, I was like a confident young kid, but also I was like deeply insecure, like we all are. But you don't really know, you don't notice that you're insecure. And I, not like all of us are, but I would definitely was. And I thought Made in Chelsea, at school, I wanted to be popular, right? That's what I wanted to be, because I thought if I was popular, then that gives you like all the credibility and all the validation you need. And so I thought if I joined a television show about, then I would be the most popular, right? That's what I thought.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  So I was like, this is gonna be the best, I'm gonna become famous? You're kidding me? That's like the most exciting thing, I'm gonna be famous? And the problem was, is that you then go and do a reality show. Which was really exciting and Made in Chelsea was fricking fun and whether you liked the show or didn't like the show. I mean firstly, it's a TV show of being posh, which is like the worst idea in the world. It's like.

• 34:40Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's the best idea.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  It's like, honestly, but I was like, going into it was one of these things where I was like. I thought it was gonna cure lots of stuff, all the problems I had, but actually, as you said, it heightened everything. And the moment of, I had two real big moments of realisation. Is I went on the show and it was great fun and we got to travel the world and we got paid to do it with our mates and whatever. And then, I think I write about this in the book, I think. It was I, we won a BAFTA. And we got up on stage in front of like all these incredible actors and actresses and talented people. And we were, I was like screaming like, yeah, can't believe it. Yeah, we've just done it.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  And I got on stage and I was like, oh my god. And that feeling was just amazing. I looked into the audience, I saw like Idris Elba and Bennett Kumpach and Olivia Colman and all these incredible people who've. Trained their entire lives to get where they are. And they were looking back at us just like.

• 35:34Fearne Cotton?

  Were they?

• 35:35Speaker 02

  A hundred, a hundred percent. You could feel the room. I'm quite aware of that. You could feel the room. And I suddenly, again like eating the apple, I suddenly went, oh, we're not cool. And I was like, we're not what we think we are. In our little bubble of reality TV, we think we are, but we're not. And suddenly I had this realisation. I was like, oh my god, all the things that I thought I was going to get, but actually we're slightly being laughed at here. And that was a big moment for me. And also I then secondly realised that I'd taken a shortcut into this amazing industry of entertainment. And I knew then it was gonna be this long way round. And we always look for a shortcut in life. And actually, it's the worst thing to do. Because as soon as you take a shortcut, you have to take the long road at some point. And so for me, that was a big learning curve, I think.

• 36:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but I, I, there's lots to say about that. I think you're doing yourself a discredit because I think there's room for all of it. I think there's room for like high-end classy drama with the best, you know, royal Shakespearean actors. And I think there's. Loads of space for reality shows where we can sit and just go, oh my god, and zone out.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's for you.

• 36:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  For you, that's great, but for the person on the show, you're thinking, no, I'm like a, I'm an entertainer and I'm this and that. And everyone on the other side of the TV watching are going, this is a fucking idiot.

• 36:48Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think so. I think a lot of people are like, we like the relatability. We like that we can see ourselves in these people. No, I'm not. I honestly believe it. I think there's room for all of it. I really do.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  But before you met me, before you knew me and before things, you probably had a preconception of what I was like, right?

• 37:06Fearne Cotton?

  I've always thought you were ace. And do you know one of the reasons is Lyn Cotton, my mum, you've not met my mum yet.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  I've not met your mum.

• 37:12Fearne Cotton?

  She fucking loves you.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Get out of here.

• 37:13Fearne Cotton?

  And let me tell you, Lyn hates everyone. Lyn doesn't like anyone. She'll find a problem with anyone on TV.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Let's fricking go, Lyn.

• 37:20Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, don't like, uh, don't like, she fucking loves you. She wants to meet you.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Really?

• 37:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Lyn, I fricking love you.

• 37:26Fearne Cotton?

  So I had, I was just already like on board with the whole Jamie Laing thing.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:29Fearne Cotton?

  Already, before we became friends. And then it just, you know, further confirmed that you are a very decent egg. And not only that, and like you say, you have to do the long road at some point.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Gotta do the long road.

• 37:38Fearne Cotton?

  But you've done it and you've put the work in not only in terms of your credentials in entertainment, but also business wise. You know, that you can't cheat on that one because the results will be visible and, and you know, that's a whole, a whole other domain.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  But Main and Chelsea, like, and you, I'm sure you, you're gonna interview, I know you'll interview or will interview some like Main and Chelsea people.

• 38:02Fearne Cotton?

  I've got Spenny coming on.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  You've got Spenny coming on. Okay, great. I guarantee this, Spenny will hate talking about it. He'll hate it.

• 38:07Fearne Cotton?

  Main and Chelsea?

• 38:08Speaker 02

  He won't want to talk about it.

• 38:08Fearne Cotton?

  You've got to own it.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Fucking damn it.

• 38:11Fearne Cotton?

  I like, I've got to own Disney Club when I was 15. I can't be like, I didn't do kids TV.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Fern, that's way cooler. That is way cooler.

• 38:16Fearne Cotton?

  Is it?

• 38:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:18Fearne Cotton?

  I don't know.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Yes, it's way cooler.

• 38:20Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think it is.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Main and Chelsea's a TV show.

• 38:23Fearne Cotton?

  I was like this, bunches, hi, welcome to the Disney Club. Do you wanna watch Rugrats? I was literally the biggest nerd ever. Yeah, like awful.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Okay, Main and Chelsea's a TV show being posh. We don't work and live off our parents' money.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  What a brilliant idea that is. Yeah, I'll do that.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll do that. And then when I did it, I do my first ever like show, we watch it, it goes out live. And I'm like, well, we watched it on the TV, we were like, well now I'm famous.

• 38:53Fearne Cotton?

  We've made it.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  You've made it. And I walk outside and like the first comment, it goes, get a real job.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  I'm like, what the fuck is this? But so.

• 39:02Fearne Cotton?

  It's so great.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  But you've got to own it. And I like, and I, and I, again, I say this thing, Harry Styles, when he won the Grammy, he got up on stage.

• 39:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, you mentioned One D.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  He mentioned One Direction.

• 39:12Fearne Cotton?

  X Factor.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  X Factor. Like, own it.

• 39:14Fearne Cotton?

  Own it.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  And it's like, that's my roots.

• 39:16Fearne Cotton?

  That's how you got there.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. How cool is it?

• 39:19Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what's so interesting is if we, if we go back to talking about the validation aspect of it, and like you say, you walk out the house, like you feel like you've made it, you're hoping that fame's gonna make you popular.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:30Fearne Cotton?

  We only wanna be popular because we're, I believe, lacking self-compassion. And we conflate the two. We think popularity means we're gonna like ourselves. And often it can be the greatest distraction from actually doing the work to try and cultivate some self-acceptance, to go, this is who I am, and I'm flawed, and I'm brilliant, and everything in between. Do you think you're at a place now where you like yourself?

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. Dude, like, like a million, million percent. And I think, I think it was probably because I, when I was younger, you know, big family, middle child, always wanted attention, always wanted love, quite sensitive, parents get divorced, sent off to boarding school, blah, blah, blah, that kind of like, and poor me, right, whatever.

• 40:17Fearne Cotton?

  No, but boarding school's harsh.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but still, but like, but whatever, that was my, again, there's situations, and I do try and caveat it with this, because there are situations which are so much worse, but my experience was like that, right? And it was like a tough experience for me at the time. And at school, I was like. I was quite like a, almost like a young achiever, like in sports days I was always winning, like medals, and I was captain of the football teams. And so you were quite applauded when I was a young kid.

• 40:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  And because I, and I was like, oh, I quite like that. I score a goal and people cheer. That's, I quite like that. That's quite a good thing. I wasn't good at work. So then when seventeen hit and I then couldn't play sport because I had an injury, that was taken away from me. So all those praises and all that like, Jamie, well done, come on Jamie, all those kind of things. That just went silent.

• 41:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  And so I then needed to fill that with something. And I was like, well, where do I get those cheers from? Because I'd almost become addicted to that cheer, which is like a really negative thing to get.

• 41:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  And now, that's why with sportsmen, with, it's a bit of sportsmen, right? Like, I was chatting to a lioness recently and she said, I don't, when I score a goal, that feeling of scoring a goal, I don't know what I'm gonna do afterwards when I can't get that feeling. And I had a small level of it, right? So I went searching for that validation other places. And when Made in Chelsea came, that was like, that's it. I get the praise from there. And it just wasn't the same because I would, it just, yeah, it wasn't the same.

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  No, and I don't think, even if you're like Beyonce on stage, I don't know if that is any more meaningful than someone going alike you are Made in Chelsea. I really don't. I think unless you can have a bedrock of self-compassion, it doesn't touch the sides. One thousand people watching you becomes, I want ten thousand, becomes, I want a hundred thousand people in a stadium. And it's never enough unless you like yourself.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  That's it. And now I'm in a place where definitely I really like myself. And I think that comes from my relationship with Sophie, my wife.

• 42:19Fearne Cotton?

  I love your wife.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Oh man, she's, and she adores you.

• 42:21Fearne Cotton?

  I love your wife so much. Because, I mean, I've always loved your podcast together, but when I met her, we met at Buckingham Palace, which is the wankiest thing I'll ever say. But I'd never met your wife before and within four seconds I was like, I'm in love with her.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  You're similar.

• 42:37Fearne Cotton?

  I've just fucking love her.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  You're both like alpha and you're both opinionated in a good way and you're both a little bit like cats.

• 42:45Fearne Cotton?

  I remember the first time, or maybe the second time, we had dinner together.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:49Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm not good, if I know I'm either done or I've got an early start.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Unbelievable.

• 42:55Fearne Cotton?

  I get up and go. You can believe it.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Fun. It's honestly, okay, let me set the scene for your listeners. So we're having like a lovely dinner. Like, I'm like, I'm like one of those people who is like, you know, if someone on the opposite table is struggling with their chair. Like, I'm just so worried about like people and things like that. We're having this lovely dinner. I think I've had like an espresso martini. I'm like, I'm just, this is frigging great. Like, I'm like, should we get some shots? It's me, you, Elizabeth, they, we're having a great time. I like had the last bite of like my dessert. I'm like, that was good. And you're like up and I'm like, huh? And you're like, right, guys, I'm off. And I was like, firstly, in my head, I had so much respect for you. I had so much respect, the fact that you could suddenly just be like, well, I'm done now.

• 43:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, when I'm done, I'm done.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  And I was like, I wish I had that confidence and that then just be like, yeah, I'm just out. And Elizabeth and I looked at each other and Elizabeth went, I wish I had that. Wish I had that.

• 43:50Fearne Cotton?

  When I'm done, especially at night, I, I'm done. I've got to get out.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  You've just got to go. That's such an inner confidence. Great. My wife has that.

• 43:57Fearne Cotton?

  Can be true. I love you and Elizabeth, but I also want to be at home.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that great inner confidence.

• 44:02Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm going, yeah. But back to your wife.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:05Fearne Cotton?

  She is fucking great. And you can tell throughout this book, there's a specific moment where you're really struggling in lockdown.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:12Fearne Cotton?

  And all the work stopped, AKA no distractions. You're left with your thoughts.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Yes, fun.

• 44:17Fearne Cotton?

  You're sat in it going, oh my god. And Sophie's actually your lifeline in that moment.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Man, she is like. So, yeah, so I think, I think I was always like looking for like that dopamine hit. So at school, it was like scoring tries or scoring goals or whatever it was. Then it was Made in Chelsea, that dopamine hit the whole time. And then it was like, that wasn't enough, so it was like dating people or drinking too much. So it's always like chasing this dopamine. And then I met Sophie and I thought that relationships should be like chaotic. And like if it wasn't full with drama, then it wasn't exciting. And actually, Sophie and I had that real sort of fire and real passion towards each other. But it was also calm and that was confusing to me. And in lockdown, we got told something once, like, we got, we got told that by a, by a psychic, right? I mean, whether or not you believe in psychics, but I kind of quite like it.

• 45:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm here for it.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm in, I'm, I freaking like it.

• 45:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Um, I freaking love it, actually, I freaking love it. And the psychic said that we're twin flames. And I was like, what's that? So I googled this, it seems to be twin flames. And basically twin flames like mirror each other. So it's not even mirroring each other, sorry, that's the wrong thing. It's more like, a twin flame is where the mirror is put on yourself, so you see your true self. And in relationships, in life, we try to mask ourselves the whole time.

• 45:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Like, that's what we do, right? Because we don't really want to front up to who we truly are, because we then see what our flaws are.

• 45:35Fearne Cotton?

  And we have to make changes a lot of the time and that's boring and hard.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  I don't want to do that, I just want to continue what I'm doing and not make changes. Sophie made me, good or bad, she made me realise who I actually was. And she made me hold the mirror up to myself and understand who I actually was. And that was quite tough, because it made me realise what I was lacking, what I wasn't good at, the mistakes I made, all these different things. And when lockdown hit and I didn't have the distractions I normally did in life, I had what I can only describe as like real burnout. And it was where I just lost the joy for anything. And I don't thi- I don't think it was depression, because the way someone has described depression to me is just emptiness. And- It's almost trying to think about space, they're just like, it's just complete emptiness.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  And it wasn't that, it was more I just lost complete joy for anything. And going from such an optimistic person, such a lover of life, to not really enjoying things and not really having any joy anywhere. It was really tough and I had just started my new relationship with Sophie and we were in lockdown, living together. And that's not fun, like, you know, you're in lockdown and the person who you just started going out with is being miserable. And she was 24 and she wants to go and have fun and probably meet, see her friends and get drunk and do all the things a 24 year old wants to do. And I was 30 and I remember saying to her, I remember saying, um, when you met me, the walls were pink. And at the moment they're dark, but I promise you I'll paint them back pink again. I promise you I will, I promise you Sophie I will.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  And forever she just stuck by my side and she kept saying to me, even if you don't think tomorrow is going to be a good day, and I know you don't, just trick yourself, tomorrow is going to be a good day. Just do that, think it will be a good day. And she's just been amazing and the reason why I'm much happier, and the reason I'm much more fulfilled in myself is because of the relationship, without a doubt. Because I've now worked out who I truly am, I held the mirror up to myself and realised actually what my flaws were. And realised that being still is a good thing, you don't need to be chaotic all the time.

• 47:46Fearne Cotton?

  It's hard though, isn't it?

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Friggin hard.

• 47:48Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not good at it.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  No, it's terrible, it's the hardest thing to do.

• 47:50Fearne Cotton?

  I'm really not good, I don't know how to do like chilling out.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I know it's the hard, but you, but sometimes, I mean, I say that, but maybe I'm lying. I like, but it being still is important, but also it comes with ups and downs. Like Sophie and I, you know, we have like tough times and we can argue and we can hate each other and we can be mean to each other. And it's not roses at all, but we have this sort of like really, I hope we have this really amazing bond with each other. And someone told me once that it's the 10,000 hour rule. You know, if you do 10,000 hours at something, you become an expert in it or supposedly, right? With Sophie or with, in your relationship, you've got to think, can I spend 10,000 hours, 10,000 dates, 10,000 dinners with this person? If you can, you're in a good spot, I could spend a hundred thousand with Sophie, just because.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm not, she's just the best.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  She is so great.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  She's bringing the best, man. And she's hot.

• 48:47Speaker 04

  Oh my god, she is. Some of her pictures on Instagram, I'm like,

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:52Speaker 04

  She's like AI. She's so dreamy.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  And people look at me and they're just like, how have you done that? And I go, I don't know. I don't know how I've done that. But she's just like, hot. Even when she's like pregnant.

• 49:03Speaker 04

  Oh, even hotter.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Like, she was pregnant, well, she'll hate me saying this, but she's like, she's pregnant. And she was like, trying to, I think she was trying to like shave.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Impossible.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  And I caught her like doing it in this like, sort of like gremlin pose. And I was just like, it's still hot.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  Still hot.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Still looking hot.

• 49:18Speaker 04

  She's just, she can't be unhot. It's an impossibility.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  She's amazing.

• 49:25Speaker 03

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• 49:56Speaker 07

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  And Maisie Adam.

• 49:58Speaker 07

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 50:00Speaker 04

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 50:02Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 50:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too.

• 50:14Speaker 04

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip.

• 50:17Speaker 07

  Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 50:29Fearne Cotton?

  The other thing I didn't know about you, and it seems Sophie's been a big help. And initially sort of...

• 50:36Fearne Cotton?

  Woke you up to the idea of what was going on was your eating disorder. I didn't know this about you. And what I found really interesting is you don't use the word bulimia at all when describing it. In my eyes, it's bulimia. I had bulimia for 10 years. I was incredibly uncomfortable saying the word, talking about it. The only reason I started publicly talking about it was because of our dear friend, Elizabeth Day. And I went on her podcast and I spoke to her before off mic and said, I think I want one of my failures to be based around looking after myself and this thing I used to do. And I found it so hard to say the word bulimia.

• 51:17Fearne Cotton?

  I felt ashamed, slightly fraudulent saying it, like I'd made it up. Although it ruled a lot of my life for like nearly a decade. But knowing and trusting Elizabeth like I do, I thought this is a really good way of me practising, talking about it. And it is a horrible secret illness. You're doing it all in secret. People won't know because you look the same often, you know, especially if you're binging and then purging. You don't really look any different and, you know, I used to carry gum with me and spray perfume. And I had all the little tricks going on so nobody would find out. So when you break that secrecy and you either tell someone or someone says, were you being sick?

• 52:00Fearne Cotton?

  It's so unnerving. I now, I've through a lot of therapy as well, feel really comfortable talking about it. And also I know that so many people out there are living with this secret unhappily. So I'm, I do know that talking about it will be helpful. Where are you at with discussing it?

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's a, it's a big one, right? So the reason I, so when I wrote my book, right, Boys Don't Cry, I, I, I wanted to make it like chapters, right? So A was for anxiety, B was for best friend, L is for loneliness, you know, S is for Sophie. And so because I'm dyslexic, I wanted to make sure that you could just turn to a chapter and just read it. And it was my experience with what I think is a way to help through it. And I really think that's important in life. And that's why I wrote it for my future kid, because I want my baby to understand that they can talk about things, right? And it came to the chapter W and, but I, I've never, I've never spoken of this. And still as I start to talk about this, I feel like shame, right?

• 53:03Speaker 02

  It came to the the chapter W and I had promised myself that I'd be honest in the book. And so I thought, right, I'll talk about weight. So W is for weight. And I I don't think men talk about issues that they have with their weight or their body or the way they look or their hairline or all these things. We just don't. And I thought it was important to do it. And so my story with it is I played a lot of sport. I was very sporty, always quite lean, always looking, you know, everyone always used to say, what a six pack Jamie has, all these things. And I used to eat a lot of food because I was trying to put on weight for rugby, because I was a keen rugby player, a really good rugby player.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  And when I had my knee injury and my sport was taken away from me, I must have gone into some sort of like anxiety without realising it. And I got comfort in eating. And it was back when you didn't really have camera phones at all. And so we had, I had like a disposable camera and went on holiday. And I was taking photos. My mum would say to me, you look a bit stocky. Like you look a bit stocky, like you're eating a lot and you look a bit stocky. And it was very, from a place of love. Right, I went, oh, whatever, you know, I didn't even think of, oh, no, whatever. And I went on holiday, got, took some photos, got them developed. And I remember going to like a snappy snap, which used to be a place to get developed. And I was going through them and I came across a picture of me topless on the beach.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  And I did, I looked stocky. I didn't look lean. I didn't look like a six packy as I usually was. And immediately I just felt shame. And so that day, something clicked in my brain. I must have been eighteen, nineteen. And probably because of the anxiety of the sport and all those things, I couldn't play sport anymore, which was like thing taken away from me. When I went Elizabeth Day, that was my failure, that I couldn't play sport anymore. I started to diet and I'd never done that. I was conscious of what I was eating. So Coca Cola became Diet Coke and uh, hummus became reduced fat hummus. And I would eat rice cakes instead of crisps and I started dieting and um, I started to become thinner.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  And so then I became so conscious of my, my weight, which I'd never done before. And then that led into, which I didn't even realise, looking back, I didn't even realise, is that I I then joined Made in Chelsea and I went on to Made in Chelsea and everything was edited for me. I had no control over my life. I didn't know what was going on. I was conscious of the way that I looked and all these things because people were writing stuff on social media and all this type of stuff. Then I then had to control something. So it became, you know, in part what I was eating. And, you know, I, I've spoken to people who have had eating disorders. And I have to, you know, it's hard for me to say, but I had an eating disorder for sure.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  And I've never said that out loud. And even I went to a therapist. And when I told the therapist what was happening, I had to cover my eyes and sex. I was too embarrassed about it. But there were moments in my twenties where I wouldn't keep my food down because it was just a complete control thing. And it was a secret that I had. And I knew that other people had this, but I thought it was just women. I thought it was a, something that women suffered, not guys, no way, you kidding me? Guys don't suffer with this, you kidding me? No way, not at all.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  And actually I found one, a, a, a friend of mine, a guy friend, a close friend who was being sick into the loo once. And I joked with him about it. I went, oh man, like, are you okay? Don't worry about it. You know, it's okay. And I didn't tell him about my thing, but it made me realise that, oh, other men suffer with this. And when I first started dating Sophie, no one ever knew that I had this occasionally. And, and I do want to be honest, it was occasionally, it wasn't like a constant thing the whole time, it was just occasionally. Sophie caught me once and this secret that I had was suddenly not a secret anymore. And suddenly I realised what was going on. And she says to me, what are you doing? And I said, oh, I was doing nothing.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  And she said, yes, you were, you were, I heard you being sick. And I said, well, I know I wasn't. And she said, she said, it's okay. I just want you to know that whatever you're dealing with, I'm sorry. And if you ever want to talk about it, I'm here. And that suddenly became a, I suddenly clicked on to what was happening. I was like, what the hell is? It was like I was an out of body experience. And then it was suddenly a realistic thing, what I was doing. I never spoke to Sophie again about it. And I was then watching the Freddie Flintoff new documentary about it. And Jack Whitehall, who's a friend of mine, actually went on the screen. And he said, uh, that he had suffered with an eating disorder throughout. It's, I can't even say, I find it hard to say the word. But he suffered with an eating disorder.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  And I thought, well, maybe I should talk about what I experienced. Because women are amazing how they talk about body positivity. And that's just amazing and it's all great. But with guys, we never talk about it. To be sexy and attractive, we have to go to the gym and do press ups and have abs and have bleaks and be able to lift a hundred kilograms and look that way. And not everyone can do that. And we sort of suffer, in my experience, suffer really in silence because it's so shameful. You don't talk to your guys about it, no fricking ways. Are you kidding me? Not in a million years. I could maybe talk to my mum about it. I could maybe talk to my sister about it, couldn't talk to guys about it. Yeah, and it was something that I thought was important to talk about in the book. Because if another guy picks it up and turns to that chapter and reads it and reads my experience,

• 58:48Speaker 02

  and then the ways that I think are really good to coping with that situation, I think it could be really important. Yeah. But it was, yeah, it's, um, it's for whatever reason, don't know. I'm happy, I can talk about my anxiety. I know, whatever it is, I can talk about anything. That for me is one thing that I really, because I don't, firstly, I don't want to be defined by anything like that. I don't want to be defined by anything, really, but, and also, I, um. Yeah, it's a very shameful thing for some reason. I find it pretty shameful.

• 59:15Fearne Cotton?

  I get it. Look, I I feel exactly the same.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:18Fearne Cotton?

  That is incredibly hard to to say the words out loud at first. I found it impossible for years and, you know, I I totally understand and that's, you know, obviously the premise of the book a lot of the time is that boys, men don't have that natural.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, we don't.

• 59:35Fearne Cotton?

  Inclination to talk about things and and to discuss things or cry, which is obviously a a big topic as well. But I thinks especially with bulimia, but many eating disorders, but especially bulimia because of the secrecy. You don't talk to anyone. I didn't tell anyone for years and my mum was the person that called me out and I remember every minute of it so clearly and it was horrible and horrible for my mum and I feel terrible that I put my parents through it. And it's so interesting, you even saying about, oh, I wasn't doing it that regularly. I I've always found that bit of it really tricky, like what what degree does it have to be at to say this is a problem, this is a disorder?

• 1:00:17Fearne Cotton?

  Because mine was really extreme at the start. Sometimes I could puke eight times a day, nine times a day, 10 times a day. It was non-stop. And then later down the line, I could go a month, I could go two months, I could maybe even go six months towards the very end of the problem. So I thought, oh, it wasn't really a thing then. It was like a stress, you know, reliever or if I'd eaten a tiny bit too much or I'd got too drunk, you know, I would always have a little excuse, like, oh, it was a one-off, it wasn't a thing.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Fearne Cotton?

  But it's still an issue. It's still a problem. I don't think that there's like a a ladder of like degrees as to, oh, you're now allowed to say that this is an eating disorder or this is a problem. If you find it, it's a problem in your life, it's a problem.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you you're completely right. And I think that you do try and find excuses for certain things. And I think talking from a guy point of view, I think we with the best way at finding excuses for stuff and guys are very good at playing dumb to to their relationships, to their friends, to themselves, very good at it. It's like, oh, no, it doesn't matter. Oh, it doesn't matter. Oh, it doesn't matter. And that time when Sophie said to me, that's when I I woke up and I was like, oh, my god. And I suddenly was like, what the hell am I actually, why am I even doing this? Like, why am I injuring myself? It was a sort of big wake up call. And you know, the, the real reason that I wanted to talk about it is like, I, I write about this, but there was a, I, I went over to my friend's house, right? It was just after lockdown.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  And it was a group of friends and I write about them in the book as well. And we sat in circles, my friend Robbo and, you know, a few, my friend Julian and all these people. And there were just maybe about four of us, five of us. And we'd come out of lockdown and I had been feeling these, like this real burnout and real sense of loneliness, which I think a lot of people felt in lockdown and just lots of different things. And we had dinner together and we sat on the floor and we're drinking beers and we talk about the usual things that guys talk about. And I just suddenly switched up the conversation. I said, guys, I want to ask a question. Do any of you ever feel lonely? And they all paused for a second. And one by one, it was like an echo back. Yeah, I feel really lonely. Feel really lonely. I feel this, I feel that. You know, my, my friend said to me, um, you know, the only person I speak to is my mum on, on the phone when I come back.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  And I'm really jealous of my little brother who games and all he does is talk to his friends the whole time, like an innocence. And what I realised is that as soon as you open up that conversation, you get these incredible echoes back of like people who are dealing with similar stuff or suffering with different things. And until you open that door, that conversation doesn't really happen.

• 1:02:48Fearne Cotton?

  Nope.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  You know, and, and so that's why I wanted to do the W chapter. I went on a stag recently for my friend Ollie. He's one of my best friends in the world. And we, it's a stag, we're in Madrid, we're having the best time ever and it was incredible and all these different things. We sat on the rooftop having a drink and I said, right, guys, I want everyone to go around the circle. I want you to say one memory, core memory that you, that you have with Ollie and one reason he's changed your life.

• 1:03:08Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm, that's so nice.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  And, oh, no, we're not gonna do that. And one by one, we all did it.

• 1:03:13Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  And after the trip, the biggest feedback from everyone was, is like, I'm so, that is the best, still today, people, yeah, that is the best thing we did. And for some reason, and this is not a negative and I don't know, it, I hope it doesn't come across as negative. Women are really good at gossiping.

• 1:03:27Fearne Cotton?

  Oh yeah, we love it.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Man, I, I hear Sophie on the phone, talking to her friends. It's like talking about food, clothes, the weather.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  Books.

• 1:03:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we need to process verbally.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  Verbal, anything, details, details, details. Men have a really tricky time because we have to find a subject to talk about. So when you go to the pub, you, all the guys are thinking as they're going to the pub, okay, I've got to talk, I can talk about football, I can talk about business. We have to find a topic.

• 1:03:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Can't just gossip.

• 1:03:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  And so we find it really hard, in my experience, and I'm sure there's lots of guys out there who think differently, but in my experience, as guys, we don't open that door to talk about like loneliness, or talk about anxiety, or talk about our weight, or talk about our fear of failure. And so my book was to open those doors for everyone to have that conversation. And I kind of hope it does, and the reason why I'm really conscious to talk about the W, because I keep blabbering on, is I don't want it to be, whoa me. Like, I'm almost fatigued of talking about.

• 1:04:28Fearne Cotton?

  But it's so not.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Well, I hope it's not.

• 1:04:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's so not.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Because I don't want it to be that way.

• 1:04:33Fearne Cotton?

  A, we can all kind of gaslight ourselves and go, oh, you know, we can, what we can do is put a disclaimer constantly before everything, like, oh, but people, other people have it worse off. And then you're actually losing the message, which is, I went through this thing. Yeah, you did. Doesn't matter that you were made in Chelsea, doesn't matter about your upbringing, none of it matters. It's what you've been through and if it connects with other people. And I think the main theme of this book is communication and the fact that men do often struggle with it. And that's why we're seeing lots of terrible statistics that, you know, that we all know about. And like you've just said, the most special moment on that stag do was you braving it and saying, let's do something different here, rather than just like taking the piss out of each other. Let's say something lovely.

• 1:05:16Fearne Cotton?

  Equally, when you're talking about weight and discussing eating disorders for the first time, it's communication. Whether it's when you were doing your ultra marathon challenge and people are seeing you actively feeling and being emotional, it's all a level of communication. And that's the beautiful thing. That's why I love podcasting, because it's just that, and it's storytelling, and it's really important.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  And you know, when I did my own, you know, the whole reason I wrote my book, right? The reason I wrote it is I had this sort of idea in my head for a while, but after doing. The ultramarathon run, which if anyone who doesn't know, I did five ultramarathons in five days, all for chronic relief, right? It was about a hundred and fifty odd miles running and I, it was like the most insane experience, but like tougher than I've, anything physically I've ever done. And mentally, it was really tough. And you kind of have to always, I think in life, you always have to have a north star, right? Like somewhere where you're heading, right? Whatever that is. Like for me, my run, the north star was, is that in my twenties, I suffered with crippling anxiety and I never spoke about it. So what I wanted to do on this run is run for all those people who suffer with some sort of mental health, whether it's depression, anxiety, insomnia, OCD, whatever it may be.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  And that was my north star, the whole entire time. And what the run, the few things the run made me realise was, but the big thing was, is I was running through villages and towns throughout the UK. And the amount of, and when I started opening up, right? And the reason I started opening up, right? And I don't know why this opened up the floodgates. But on the third day, I was broken and I couldn't really walk. And I had just done two ultramarathons, which was like, so it was a hundred and something kilometres in or whatever it was. On the third day, I got up and I got on the radio and I had to do the radio in the morning and I was half dead. And on the radio, this little girl, twelve years old, left me a voice note and she said, um, she said to me, uh, Jamie, I want to donate my pocket money to you.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  This twelve year old girl, okay? I want to donate my pocket money to you. And she said, um, if you can get through these ultramarathons, I know I can get through my chemo. And whoever this little angel is, right? This sweet girl, that, that is like, that, my pain is temporary. Like hers, I, you know, I don't know what, for her, her family, whatever it is. And it made me realise that, you know, I kind of need to be a bit braver, maybe in life. And I don't know what that, but it made me realise I need to be a bit braver. So I started opening up about actually what I was feeling, rather than saying, we've got to get over this stigma of mental health.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  I said, well, look, I've actually suffered with this, guys. And so when I was running, then the, the support and the messages and the things that happened because, and that's why we raised a huge amount of money because of all those things, which was so incredible. And so I realised that actually, when you start being honest about yourself, that opens up these doors for other people. So the reason I wrote the book is because afterwards, I was like, I really want to talk about all the things that I've experienced, hoping that a boy, a son, a daughter, an aunt, an uncle, a boyfriend, a girlfriend will pick it up. Or give it to someone and say, look, read this. I know you can't talk about it. I know you probably don't wanna talk about it, but read this book.

• 1:08:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  You know, whether you know this guy or don't know this guy, if you read it, it may help you.

• 1:08:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  And we go back to that same thing. You know, one of the reasons I did write the book is because I generally just really kinda wanna help people.

• 1:08:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  I think I've lived like a really selfish life. Like, I've been freaking hedonistic and selfish and done what I want to do for so long. And kind of a bit like, I'm a bit bored of like just focusing on myself for so long. Maybe helping someone else would be a good thing.

• 1:08:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's kind of the reason.

• 1:08:44Fearne Cotton?

  Well, it is. It's beautiful and, you know, we all loved watching your struggles through that, but your honesty and your openness. It was a phenomenal thing to see and I think all the messaging around men showing emotion, feeling it's okay to call a friend and just simply either check in with someone or talk honestly about something. It's really, it is really powerful.

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also, and the big thing is, is like, we need to be resilient, like one hundred percent. And maybe the pendulum has gone one way where we're not as resilient as we should be. So, yeah, we agree, gotta get back. But we still can't deny that like, people, there are awful things happening and people are taking their lives and just doing things because they're not really talking about it. We went out to an amazing place in Scotland with my Candykins team recently. And we went to this place called, I think, I'm gonna get Glendye up in Scotland, which is, it's an amazing place. And part of it is where you go into the wild and you go with ex-veterans, right? And they take you into the wild and they teach you how to start fires. It was like a real bonding experience. One of the leaders there, one of the guys who set it up, on the day that we had arrived, was in the back of the car.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  And he got a call from someone who was an ex-vet, who was saying he was gonna take his life. And he had phoned this guy because he had found the number and he just wanted help and he called up, this one guy. And this guy managed to save it. They were in the car with my team and this conversation was going on. It's mad, right? And so as much as we say like, oh, we're talking too much about it and all these different things. This is still happening in, in the world.

• 1:10:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  That needs to, every minute.

• 1:10:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Because we're still not talking enough about it. Be resilient, one hundred percent. Gotta be resilient. Life is tough.

• 1:10:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  You gotta be, pick yourself up. Up when you get knocked down. And if you don't, come on.

• 1:10:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  Let's go, everyone. Let's keep going.

• 1:10:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  But also, at the same time, we've still got to realise that we can be vulnerable and being vulnerable is cool. We can talk about things.

• 1:10:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  I still don't think we are talking necessarily, especially with men, enough.

• 1:10:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, no, I agree with you. I totally agree. And it's a beautiful motivation for this whole project and this book. And no doubt you will touch many lives doing it without, you don't have to, you know, put a disclaimer in front of that. Like, you will, you know, honesty breeds honesty.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Do you, do you, do, how do you get your kids to talk?

• 1:10:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's very hard with Rex. I would say my daughter is really good at coming to me and saying, I'm not happy about this. Or this is bumming me out. She's really eloquent and open. With Rex, it is harder, you know, he's on the cusp of teenhood.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Fearne Cotton?

  That takes a little bit more work. And often I need to be on my own with him or it's right before he goes to sleep that he might want to have a chat. But I do think it's harder and it's hard to know whether that is just simply because he's a boy. And that's, you know, hormone based and where he's at. Or if it is culturally and systemically where we're at with young boys is that they're not being encouraged in the world, at school, in their friendship circles to show vulnerability. I think it's about that.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  That's interesting. He does it before bed.

• 1:11:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think a lot of kids end up doing that.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a, it's a safe space where you can then say it and then you can escape to the dream world.

• 1:11:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  So it doesn't feel almost real.

• 1:11:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  You can just say, okay, that's that. By the way, night.

• 1:11:55Fearne Cotton?

  And it's an interesting age because 12, 13, you're kind of, I want to be independent. I want to do my own thing. But at bedtime, it's like, oh, but I'm still a kid and I need my mum or my dad or my carer. Like, you have that.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Fearne Cotton?

  You know, that vulnerability before you go to sleep and it's going to be dark and you're on your own. And it's an interesting one, but it's definitely harder, but um.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  It's hard. Look, it's hard. And, and I just think, like, I, yeah, I just think, I, I kind of hope that someone will pick up the book and they'll go, God, even if like, this has kind of helped me or it's helped my son or whatever. That for me is in like, hey, sweet, at least, you know, that's.

• 1:12:29Fearne Cotton?

  You will.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  I really, I do.

• 1:12:31Fearne Cotton?

  You will.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  I really hope so. And look, I really appreciate you talking about the, the W chapter because I find that. Still really.

• 1:12:38Fearne Cotton?

  Well, do you know what? We can chat about that off mic whenever because I went through years of.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Amazingly you talk about it.

• 1:12:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, now I feel absolute comfort, which does show that things can constantly change because I couldn't say the word. I couldn't say it, even to friends, I couldn't say the word. And now I feel completely at peace, completely at peace. I don't feel any shame about it. I had a relapse about five years ago, once.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:13:04Fearne Cotton?

  And I felt a bit of shame and then I kind of got over it. Honestly, like, we can chat about that.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Fearne Cotton?

  And I mean that, I mean that.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  No, I really, I really appreciate that, yeah.

• 1:13:13Fearne Cotton?

  Um, I'd love to finish by asking you, where is your happy place, Jamie Laing?

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  Um, oh, well, I actually did this, I actually did this thing once where you, it was like, you had to like tap and you had to go to your happy place. And for me, weirdly enough, my happy place in my mind is holding a rugby ball on my sports field at school with my friends. And it's like a summer evening and the sun is slightly setting and it's like that smell in the air. It's like, you know, that sort of countryside smell.

• 1:13:41Fearne Cotton?

  Love that.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  And no kind of worries and no kind of responsibilities. That for me, in my mind, is like my happy place when I think about things. But now in life, I, I feel quite fortunate. I, I have, I feel very happy in like work and doing that. But being with Sophie.

• 1:14:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  Man, she's honestly, she's a complete rock star.

• 1:14:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  And I think a lot of people, because of our social, think that she like, it doesn't like, she takes piss and stuff like that. And she does. And we have this funny band with each other. But man, she's a rock.

• 1:14:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  And I would back her to the end and she'd back me to the end. So being together, yeah, that's probably the happy place.

• 1:14:22Fearne Cotton?

  It's heaven. Well, I wish you all the love and luck with your baby.

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:14:27Fearne Cotton?

  I'm so excited for you. I don't know what to do. And good luck with the book, your other baby.

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:14:33Fearne Cotton?

  And thank you for being on Happy Place.

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  I adore you.

• 1:14:37Fearne Cotton?

  God, that was a wonderful chat, if I do say so myself. But I say that from the angle of I immensely loved being in it. I felt it was a privilege that Jamie opened up in the way he did, especially about eating disorders, which I'm sure has impacted many of you, men and women. And I love the fact that he's still trying to work out how to talk about it all. You know, none of this is meant to be like perfect, slick. This is the interview where people just say the thing. No, like a lot of this stuff is really bloody uncomfortable to talk about. And that, I think, was, um, was an example of that. It was demonstrative of, of that trying to work it out as we go thing, which we're all trying to do. Jamie's book, Boys Don't Cry, is out on the 23rd of October.

• 1:15:22Fearne Cotton?

  And I mentioned that Spencer Matthews will be on the show in a few weeks. So we'll see whether we get into owning Made in Chelsea or not. I've kind of got to go there now, haven't I? I've got to ask him. Next week, though, it's a big one. We're basically going to try and cover the entire creation of the universe and humanity's place in it. Oh, God, my brain already hurts. No pressure. It's a real mix here on Happy Place and we love it. Until then, a massive thanks again to Jamie, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you beautiful lot.

• 1:16:21Speaker 03

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• 1:16:51Speaker 06

  Help, I sexted my boss is the podcast where manners...

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