Rewire How You Talk To Yourself | Ofosu Jones-Quartey

Buddhist strategies for taming that nagging voice in your head. Ofosu Jones-Quartey https://bornimusic.com/, a meditation teacher, author, and musician hailing from the Washington DC area, brings over 17 years of experience in sharing mindfulness, meditation and self-compassion practices with the world. Holding a bachelor's degree from American University and certified by the Mindfulness Meditation Teacher Certification Program, Ofosu is a graduate of the Teleos Coaching Institute and is the male voice on the Balance meditation app, reaching over 10 million subscribers. Ofosu leads meditation classes and retreats nationwide, having taught and led retreats at the Insight Meditation Community of Washington, The Insight Meditation Society, Spirit Rock, Brooklyn Zen Center, Cleveland Insight, Inward Bound Mindfulness and more. As an accomplished hip hop artist under the name "Born I," Ofosu released the mindfulness-themed album "In This Moment" in 2021. Born I's most recent album, "Komorebi" (2025), has been hailed by listeners as "a missing piece in hip-hop," praised for its meditative flow and spiritual depth. The companion book, "Lyrical Dharma: Hip-Hop as Mindfulness" (Parallax Press), arrives with a foreword by Pulitzer Prize winner Alice Walker, further cementing Born I as a unique voice at the intersection of art and contemplative practice. Beyond music, Ofosu is an author, releasing his self-published children's book "You Are Enough" in 2020 and "Love Your Amazing Self" via Storey Publishing in 2022. He lives in Rockville, Maryland, with his wife and four children. In this episode we talk about: The relationship between self-compassion and a successful meditation practice All the reasons people resist self-compassion, and his rebuttals Whether self-compassion is selfish How to do self-compassion off the cushion, including practices like journaling, written reminders, establishing accountability partners, and simple questions you can drop into your mind when all else fails How to do self-compassion on the cushion, including practices like body scans, metta, and a check-in practice you can use at the very start of your sits And how to teach self-compassion to children This episode was first aired in April 2024. Related Episodes: Think You Suck at Meditation? This Conversation Could Help. | Ofosu Jones-Quartey https://open.substack.com/pub/danharris/p/think-you-suck-at-meditation-this?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here https://app.danharris.com/membership Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hey, hey, everybody. How we doing? I have often remarked that if anybody talked to me the way I talk to myself, I would likely punch that other person in the face. This is super common, a harsh inner dialogue. It's been described as a kind of addiction, a habit that we believe on some level keeps us safe, but it really doesn't. It actually degrades our resilience. It burns us out and it can mess up our relationships with other people. So today, we're going to talk about some Buddhist strategies for rewiring your inner talk track. And my guest is Afosu Jones-Cortez, who's a great Dharma teacher. He's been on this show a couple of times and he's always great. This particular episode was published back in the spring of 2024, but it's always a good time to talk about self-compassion.

• 1:04Dan Harris?

  So we're pulling it out of the archives and reposting it. In this episode, you'll hear us talk about the relationship between self-compassion and a successful meditation practice, all the reasons people resist self-compassion and Afosu's rebuttals to those reasons, whether self-compassion is selfish, how to do self-compassion off the cushion, including practices such as journaling, written reminders and establishing accountability partners, how to do it on the cushion in your meditation practice, including practices such as body scans, Metta, and a check-in practice that you can do at the start of your meditation sessions. And finally, we talk about how to teach self-compassion to children. Just a little bit more about Afosu before we dive in here. He is the male voice on the Balance Meditation app.

• 1:48Dan Harris?

  He's got a new book or a new-ish book called Lyrical Dharma, and he's a hip-hop artist who records under the name Born I. Before we dive in, a quick plug for the new meditation app that I've just launched with my team. It's called 10% with Dan Harris. We'll be doing a New Year's meditation challenge in early January, seven days with the great Joseph Goldstein, who gives a kind of master class, an incredible on-ramp to Buddhist meditation. This on-ramp is good for beginners and experienced meditators. I was in the room with Joseph as he recorded all of the sessions. I got a ton out of it. In fact, I will be doing the challenge right alongside all of you. When it starts on January 5th, it runs through the 11th. You can sign

• 2:32Dan Harris?

  up at danharris.com. There's a free 30-day trial for the app as well, if you want to try it before you buy. Enough out of me. Afosu Jones-Cortez, coming up.

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• 3:41Dan Harris?

  Afosu Jones-Cortez, welcome to the show.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Good to be here.

• 3:46Dan Harris?

  It's great to have you here. When you were talking to my colleague and alter ego, DJ Cashmere, the dude who runs this show, when you were talking to him before we ever met, before you came to the microphone today, he asked you, what do you want to talk about? And you went right to self-compassion, and I'm curious why?

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, self compassion has evolved into being the thing that I love to talk about the most because in my own life, it's what I believe saved my life and and continues to keep me alive. That sounds dramatic, but I really think that that is the foundation of what keeps me going. And when I discovered the importance of self compassion in my practice and in my life, I would bring it up in casual conversation with friends and in classes that I was teaching. And I found that it was just something that folks

• 4:45Speaker 03

  weren't doing, that it wasn't intuitive for the people I was talking to, to relate to themselves in a compassionate way as a regular way of being. And so with it being such an important part of my own life, my own development as a human being, my own spiritual practice, etc., we talk about like, what's alive for you right now? And self compassion is always alive for me. And it's something that I just feel we are still lacking as a society and could use some more of.

• 5:17Dan Harris?

  I agree with everything you just said. I'm curious, when you say it saved your life, what are you referring to?

• 5:22Speaker 03

  Like everybody else, I've experienced some pretty significant highs and lows. And during the pandemic, I found early in the pandemic, prior to everything just shutting down, I had been going, going, going, going, going in my music life, in my teaching life, in my family life, etc. And I think I was moving at such a pace that I wasn't able to really feel my feelings and to feel what was happening underneath the surface. And once I stopped, I realized that I was in some ways deeply unhappy and feeling depressed, for lack of a better way of explaining it. And I ended up realizing that I was pretty deeply depressed. And the doctor that I worked with, I'm always going to give him

• 6:06Speaker 03

  a shout out, Dr. Cholet Josue, he gave it to me pretty straight and said that, you know, you share a lot about people being kind to themselves, but I just don't know that you're doing that. For yourself. And I think I was feeling definitely at the end of my rope and just extraordinarily low. And so he put me through like a self compassion boot camp, really. And it really, really helped turn things around for me. The practice of of just relating to myself as a friend really pulled me out of the hole that I was in. And the successive holes that we find ourselves in as people, every time I find myself even at the edge, I'm able to bring in that compassionate voice and pull myself back. Not only did it pull me out of a pretty deep hole, it keeps me from falling back in or falling in too deeply.

• 6:52Dan Harris?

  This thing you just said about relating to yourself as a friend, that's deceptively simple can be dismissed as trite even, but there's a lot there. So I want to just hang a lantern on that and come back to it. But let me just stay with you for a second. I think some people could hear that story and say, well, this dude's a Dharma teacher. He's been a Dharma teacher for a long time. So how could he find himself that low, depressed, consulting a doctor? Does the technology not work?

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. So you know, it's funny because my mom, when I share on social media, if I've had like a difficult day or something like that, you know, my mom has in the past, she shot me a message saying like, you know, you're a teacher, you're a practitioner. Why would people listen to you or practice with you if you're still experiencing challenges with your mental health, etc. At this stage in your practice and in your life, you know, for me, I think the most important thing that I can be is honest with the way that life unfolds, which is completely unpredictable. Part of being a practitioner is just uncovering what's there and being in touch with what's there. My friend and teacher Tara Brock sums it up that, you know, this is a suffering world. We do

• 8:01Speaker 03

  experience suffering in a myriad of ways. And as practitioners and even as teachers, we are no exception. There are so many different factors that support anxiety and depression and difficult mental health issues in each of our lives and in society. And sometimes those factors arise within us insidiously.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  Something that was happening for me is that I was working so much. And perhaps there were places that I wasn't giving enough kind attention to. I could notice that there was pain or that there was anxiety or there was suffering. And that's a hallmark of my mindfulness practice is noticing what's there. But to notice what's there wasn't enough for me. Compassion is an active process, so I needed to notice and respond in a compassionate way. And that peace wasn't happening. So my practice was there. My practice was aware that, yeah, I'm not feeling great, but maybe that's enough to just notice. And, you know, we noticed the waves rising and passing. So I was aware of all of that.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  But the aspect of caring for myself, the aspect of changing how I was talking to myself, how I was relating to myself, that wasn't there. And it needed to be there in order for my relationship with myself to be whole and in order for my practice to be whole.

• 9:23Dan Harris?

  I don't want to talk too much about myself because I want to talk about you, but I just.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  We can talk about you, Dan. I'm down.

• 9:31Dan Harris?

  I suspected you would say that, but I really don't. But I'll relate a very quick anecdote because I think it amplifies your point, which is that I think I spent a lot of time in my own meditation practice. I mean, even wrote a whole fucking, two whole books about the thing. And yet I retained the capacity to be a schmuck in many, many ways. And I still do, but a real turning point for me was moving from, I want to say like just mindfulness. I don't, I know some people might take issue with that, but there was a way in which I was kind of, there was something missing from my mindfulness. I was watching anger, selfishness, sadness, whatever come up in my mind. And as you say, the practice was there. I was aware of this stuff.

• 10:14Dan Harris?

  It was like my mindfulness was clinical and cold. And it missed the warmth that I think you're pointing at here. And once that came in for me, it doesn't mean that I'm flawless. It just means that I'm better than I was. And I think that's kind of close to what you're describing.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  It's pretty on the nose, yeah. Because mindfulness in the texts or even in how it's been translated and in how it's been taught, no shade to any of my teachers or to any of the wonderful teachers I teach with. I just feel like I wasn't hearing enough that, hey.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  It can be difficult to be a human being, period, no matter what. And on this journey, the fuel that you're going to need to keep going is remembering to be kind, to be gentle, to be patient with yourself. The one teacher who I heard that a lot from was Thich Nhat Hanh. And incorporating his teachings into my practice during this time of deep depression for me was also a game changer, for sure.

• 11:18Dan Harris?

  Something you said to the aforementioned DJ was that, and I think this is a direct quote, "I want people to be kind to themselves so they can see the path all the way through." In other words, this Dharma thing, this meditation thing, whatever you want to call it, is not easy. And if you want to keep going, it's very helpful to be able to relate to yourself warmly.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me, that's, even in my role as a teacher, I hold that title very lightly. I like to think about myself more as an encourager, someone who is encouraging people not to give up on themselves. Someone who's encouraging people to do whatever you need to do to be able to see not just the path, but your life through all the way. And for many of us who are practitioners, the path and our lives are inextricable. There are so many wonderful teachers, there are so many wonderful experiences that are available to us as human beings.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  But how can we see any of that or be in touch with any of that if we are just kicking the crap out of ourselves along the way? Or holding ourselves to an unreasonable standard? One of the things I like to say is that, you know, many of us act as if we should have a PhD in being alive, a PhD in being a human being. And there's absolutely nothing that suggests that we should know what's going on. This entire experience is a ridiculous, difficult mystery. And I think the most reasonable response as we are drifting through this mystery is to offer ourselves some grace and by extension, each other.

• 13:00Dan Harris?

  Well said. So here's a question I should have asked at the beginning. What is self compassion?

• 13:06Speaker 03

  Hmm. I'm just gonna give you the definition as far as I know it for myself. And self compassion for me is really developing a relationship with yourself that is akin to the relationship you would have with a best friend, a trusted loved one, even sometimes a pet or a small child that you're caring for, depending on the needs that are within your own mind, heart and body. But it's learning to relate to yourself and to care for yourself the way that you would care for somebody that you love, that you hold dear. I like to ask people to just check in with themselves in any given moment. I just think about how am I feeling right now?

• 13:50Speaker 03

  What's going on with me mentally? What's going on with me emotionally? What's going on with me physically? And then I allow myself to respond with the truth. Like right now, my mind feels like this. Right now, emotionally for me, it's like this. Right now, physically for me, it's like this. And then I extend this thought experiment out to, well, if my best friend, my loved one, my wife, one of my children, even just an average person on the street, honestly, if anybody was feeling, but especially someone I care about, if somebody I care about was feeling exactly how I'm feeling right now, what would I say to them? Whatever I would say to them, I say to myself,

• 14:32Speaker 03

  whatever movement of the heart would happen on their behalf, I allow that movement of the heart to happen on my own behalf. And that to me is what self compassion is in theory and practice.

• 14:47Dan Harris?

  There are many ways in which people resist this.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:52Dan Harris?

  So let's go through some of them. One of them is, dude, this is just cheesy.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:58Dan Harris?

  I mean, the name that often comes up in these conversations, and this will be a cultural reference that younger people don't get. You may actually fall in this category, but Stuart Smalley, who was played by Al Franken on SNL.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  I'm smart enough.

• 15:11Dan Harris?

  Yes. He would stare in the mirror, I'm good enough, smart enough. And god darn it, people like me. Or, yeah, what do you say to people who are like, dude, this is too dopey?

• 15:20Speaker 03

  First, I say to them that I felt that this was the dumbest thing ever. When I started doing it, it just felt so stupid because it was an experiment that I jumped into. I just started trying to talk to myself with a little more kindness. And I've had an on again, off again, relationship with this. And then when I was really in a down place, I just ramped it up. And I started talking to myself, I started giving myself like a pat on the back for doing the most basic shit. For like, I'd get out of bed and I'd get to the bathroom. Because something I say to people is like, at one point in time in your life, you got a standing ovation just for peeing, right?

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Like when you were a kid, you went to the bathroom, you came out and people clapped. Or they were around you, you had an audience. You know, sometimes we have to go back to that level, back to the baby level of just giving ourselves a shout out for doing the most basic things. I did that for myself, making it downstairs to make myself some eggs or just opening, closing the refrigerator to look at what's in there. I say to myself, hey, man, you know, at least you did that. And when I was beginning that process, oh my God, it felt so dumb. It felt so corny. And I am a person who wants to feel cool. Like that's, you know what I'm saying? Like aesthetically, everything. I don't want to feel dopey or corny.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  But I allowed myself to move into that space because I was a bit at my wits end, number one. I didn't really have anything else to give. It's natural for it to feel awkward or feel weird or feel dopey to start talking to yourself with kindness. But the thing is, you're talking to yourself all the time anyway. So begin by examining that. How are you talking to yourself? And I think a lot of us would find that like, damn, I don't really like how I'm talking to myself. Like I would not use these words. On my worst enemy. I mean, I think there's a certain dopiness in being mean to yourself too, right? So just the recognition like, oh, I'm talking to myself all the time anyway. And what am I saying to myself? Could it be a little nicer?

• 17:28Speaker 03

  I'm not into the corniness either, but I would just say, give it a shot and just baby steps. You could just say, hey, good job for doing something basic and just see how that feels. It's gonna feel good. It might feel silly, but it'll still feel good. And I think the goodness eventually outweighs the silliness.

• 17:45Dan Harris?

  I love everything you're saying. I'm gonna make a point and then ask a question.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 17:48Dan Harris?

  The point is, this is not Stuart Smalley. Yes, you can do the baby mode thing that you just described, but just right back to what Ofosu said at the beginning here, which is talking to yourself the way you would talk to a friend.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:59Dan Harris?

  You aren't, hopefully, if you're a good friend, not lying and bullshitting your friends and telling them they're great at stuff they're not great at. You know, another way to think about this is talking to yourself the way a good coach would talk

• 18:13Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 18:13Dan Harris?

  to a player on a team. And that doesn't mean it's false puffery or anything like that. It has to be cheesy. It can be direct, but it's also, it kind of wants the best for you. So just saying that as a clarification, but back to the tone of all of this, you're wearing a shirt that says you're enough.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:29Dan Harris?

  Which I like that sentiment, but I wonder like, how far on the rah rah end of the spectrum are we willing to go here? And how do you walk that line?

• 18:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's everybody's choice as far as how far they want to go with it. I work with young people a lot also, and there's a real issue with the mental health of our young people right now. And I think there's a real issue with the mental health of us as people right now. So for me, I want to actually be as loud of a voice for this way of thinking and being as possible. I think I'm able to do it because it's authentic to who I am and it's meaningful to me. When I wear a shirt that says you are enough, I'm really on that team. You know what I mean? I'm not like wearing it because I want to be on the team where I think it's the right thing to say. Like, it's a religion

• 19:20Speaker 03

  to me. And if I am going to proselytize about anything, it's to be, please remember to be kind to yourself. And so for me, it's a big deal. But if by making it a big deal for me, I can make it even a little deal for other people, that's fantastic. You know, so sometimes like, I'll say if I'm at a concert or something like that, like, I'll say, man, I put on all this fly shit and I made all these songs just so you would find me compelling enough to listen to this right here. Please be kind to yourself. That's it. You know, I, I, similar to me, like, I didn't even realize how close to the edge I was until I stopped and took a look at what was inside and then got some external help. My wife was like, you are really suffering. You need to talk to somebody.

• 20:03Speaker 03

  And in that whole process, I was like, damn, you know, there was a lot under the surface that perhaps I was aware of, but I wasn't responding to that awareness with kindness. So that little caveat there. I think that there are so many people who are on the verge of checking out, checking out with the big C or the little c. The little c, just by that, I mean, just checking out, no longer engaging with society or with themselves or with life in a meaningful way. And the big C, all the way to harming themselves, you know, in significant ways or in the ultimate way. I know that's true with our young people and I think that that's true with many of us.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  And I just want to offer practice and a perspective that can help change the course of those ways of thinking and being, if that makes sense.

• 20:51Dan Harris?

  It does make sense. Let's go down the list of qualms that people have.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, let's continue.

• 20:56Dan Harris?

  Okay, so here, here's another one. We kind of addressed this when we talked about the difference between like Stuart Smalley and a good coach, but let's talk about it anyway. The argument that this practice, self-kindness, self-love, self-compassion, whatever you want to call it, will make me lose my edge.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a big deal for me too. So there's all kinds of edges, like the competitive edge, the psychological edge. For me, there's also the artistic edge, all those edges. I think about that a lot. To me, like, what's more important? Having a so-called imagined edge or having a life that feels livable? Yeah, make me lose my edge. Like, most of us are on the edge because of those edges we want to maintain. And then we find ourselves like almost over the edge or all of a sudden, we're beyond where we thought we could be because we're trying to maintain that edge. So.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  I think there's a way for us to be kind to ourselves without BSing ourselves. There's a way to be kind, like I practice Muay Thai, like I'm a martial artist also. I'm a, you know, a meditation practitioner and teacher. So I can't self compassion myself out of training. That's not self compassion to me because these things are good for me. They're not always the most fun, right? But it's essential to me having like a fulfilling life. So self compassion is not meant to be a form of self delusion. Or it's not meant to be a way of letting ourselves off the hook for things that we should be responsible for. To me, it's the fuel to keep going.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  If you want to maintain your edge, I would argue that it's not gonna come from treating yourself harshly. You might be rigorous in how you address yourself to get your things done, but you don't have to put yourself down. You know, I don't think putting yourself down is how we maintain our edge. If anything, it should be recognizing when we are on the right path, when we're doing things that are in service to our goals, et cetera. And giving ourselves positive reinforcement for that so that we can have the fuel to continue. If we're not doing that, then I think trying to maintain the edge really just leads us to burnout at the very least. And then more severe consequences at the worst.

• 23:15Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I mean, the data support what you're saying, which is that if people who have a self compassionate attitude are more efficient and effective at reaching their goals, not less. And so this is just a really harmful misconception that if you baby yourself and are constantly giving yourself bubble baths or whatever, that you will be ineffective. But that's, that's not what you're arguing for certainly. And it's also not what I'm arguing for. I want to pick up on something you said there, which is about your training, your physical exercise. That self compassion is not necessarily fun. Understanding that what's best for you is to get on the bike, to go run, to go face your fears in a careful, systematic, calculated way.

• 23:57Dan Harris?

  It's really uncomfortable, but that's still self compassion because that is what is in your best interest. And so it's not going to reduce your edge. Properly applied, it will make you sharper.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  I couldn't have said it better.

• 24:11Dan Harris?

  It's my favorite answer.

• 24:13Speaker 03

  You're killing it, Dan. I'm very impressed.

• 24:18Dan Harris?

  This is the way he talks to himself, and I'm getting him to talk to me this way, too.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  That's right. Bam.

• 24:23Dan Harris?

  It's a elaborate manipulation scheme here. Let me do a couple more points of resistance that I see to self-compassion. I don't deserve this.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Well, I think there are many different reasons why we might feel this way. For me, having a clear-eyed view of the ways in which I've been unskillful, the ways in which I've caused harm in life, the ways in which I know I could have been better in certain situations and was not, all of these can take the witness stand in the course of my own self-indictment and judge and rule that I'm unworthy of self-compassion. But that's where the thought experiment of, okay, so let's not make it about me, right? Let's think about somebody that I care about.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  I know all their flaws. You know, friends of mine who have been in jail, friends of mine who have not been the best partners or the best parents, whatever. Do I think that they are below love and compassion? Do I think that they are exempt from care? Or do I think that with more love, with more compassion, with more understanding, patience, grace, we might see the best of them emerge? I tend to think that, you know, the latter is true, that there's no circumstance where compassion can't make things better. And so when I think about like, well, what would I say to somebody that I love who was feeling the same way? You know, that really takes me out of my own narrative, like I'm unworthy.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  And again, referencing Tara, she calls it the trance of unworthiness. Another teacher and friend of mine, Ayesha Ali, going back to the young child or the baby metaphor, it's like, if it's hard to consider... How would I think about a friend or a loved one who was in the same circumstance? Then consider yourself as a child or just hold an image of yourself as a young person. Only you know all that you've been through. Only you know the traumas and the circumstances that have played a part in the ways in which you might now be feeling unworthy. Only you can give yourself the compassion, the love, the presence, the understanding that you really need. I mean, there's, nobody else knows what it's been like to be you this whole time.

• 26:48Speaker 03

  Only you know. So go back to what it was like to be a kid and think about whether or not that kid deserves compassion and start there and go through all the different phases and just see, you know, if you ever caused suffering, how were you doing at that time? Were you suffering also? It doesn't exonerate us from things that we've done that have been unskillful or harmful, but it does give us an opportunity to address the root causes of our suffering. And in addressing those root causes, I think there's always room for compassion.

• 27:19Dan Harris?

  I think a lot of people will get a lot of utility out of that argument you just made. Let me do one last beef with self compassion. And this is a Buddhist beef.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  Buddhist beef.

• 27:29Dan Harris?

  Does it put too much emphasis on the self when the self is supposed to be an illusion? Anyway, this whole practice is supposed to be about getting over yourself.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:37Dan Harris?

  Transcending the ego and getting into self compassion might concretize the thing we're supposed to be losing.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. So for that perspective, it's something I've thought about also. These are all great, Dan. I don't know how you got into my counter argument notebook, but you got in there and these are all things that I have thought about and I continue to think about because I think as a teacher, what you want to be able to do is be able to explain what's important to you or your perspective to like a five year old or to someone who's never, you know, encountered what you are sharing or offering. And you also want to make sure to like test your own thinking, you know. Against your own arguments, so I appreciate all of these. A few things about that, okay? So depending on the tradition, in Buddhism, we have the two wings of awakening, right?

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Wisdom and compassion. Wisdom and compassion are inextricable, they are deeply interrelated, but on their own, they address the two natures of reality that are happening simultaneously. There is the wisdom, addresses the ultimate reality. And again, this is from my understanding of Buddhist practice in practicing in multiple traditions. Wisdom addresses the ultimate nature of our reality, which is interdependence, interconnectedness, or anata, non-self. That there's no enduring self-nature to anything and anyone.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  But compassion addresses the on-the-ground reality that each one of us is experiencing, which is that, yeah, I mean, I've got a name, and I've got a history, and I've got experiences. And when I act, there are consequences, and that's my conventional reality. So if we really want to address reality as it is in totality, we have to have wisdom and compassion. We have to be able to have our head in the clouds, or in the sky, and our feet on the ground at the same time.

• 29:51Speaker 03

  One of the ways I like to think about this is that we want to be so thoroughly clear in our relationship with ourselves, that we can then get to the point of transcendence. And by clarity, I mean knowing what's there, and healing what hurts, and healing what's been harmed, reconciling the issues that we have within ourselves. I mean, I think compassion can do all of that. I think we are practicing self-compassion so that there's nothing unsaid within the self. That even the shadow, that, you know, that young... Talks about that the shadow has come into the light that we are no longer a scary mystery

• 30:36Speaker 03

  to ourselves. We've gone in and we've taken care of what's there. We've offered light and healing and love to what's there. And now we can begin to let it go. You know, now we can begin to have a more free and open relationship with whatever is there with this flow of phenomena. We call the self. But when the self is sticky and full of injury, I mean, it's a self, it's a self as self can be, you know, and so self compassion, like any other practice is aimed to help us get to the other shore. It's aimed to help us get to the end of suffering and aimed to help us overcome the illusion of separateness and all of the things that hold us back from being in

• 31:21Speaker 03

  touch with the ultimate reality. So in that case, I don't see it as a practice that is reinforcing the self, but a practice that helps us to liberate the self, if that makes sense.

• 31:32Dan Harris?

  It does. Let me just see if I can state it back to you briefly. This paradox, these two levels of reality, it comes up a lot on the show and it is very easy for people to get confused. So I'll probably say something I've said here many, many times before, but I think genuinely this bears repeating. There are two things that are true all the time. I mean, that's what you just finished explaining on the relative level, on the consensual level of reality, the day to day, you're a Fosu, I'm Dan. We have driver's licenses, we exist. It's obvious we exist. There's a mirror, we will see ourselves in that mirror. Ultimately, though, on the ultimate level of reality, and I love that expression, ultimate reality, it sounds like the name of a shitty

• 32:14Dan Harris?

  garage band that teenagers come up with after smoking weed. On the ultimate level of reality, it's like taking a high powered microscope to the chair you're sitting in. It's like, okay, that's a chair. We can agree it's a chair. But if you take a big microscope to it, you'll see that it's mostly spinning subatomic particles. There is no essence of chair and there is no essence of a Fosu between your ears or behind your eyes and same with Dan. And I think what you're saying is since the relative level of our minds, the chatter that's happening all the time that we point to and call self, but since it's so thorny and tangled and painful, if we can't turn the volume down on the suffering.

• 32:58Dan Harris?

  Then it's gonna be hard to get to the ultimate level. And so this is like the Tibetan expression that I talk about all the time on the show. And I apologize, there might be a drinking game among my producers for the amount of times I bring this up. But the Tibetan expression for enlightenment is a clearing away and a bringing forth. And you can't clear away the stuff that's blocking you from enlightenment.

• 33:21Dan Harris?

  If you don't have skillful means for doing it.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  That's right. Skillful means is what it's all about. It's not an end unto itself. None of these practices are. They are all skillful means to bring us closer to what we already are. You know, the word sati in Pali, which is used as the word for mindfulness, but it really means to remember, to remember who you are, to remember what you are, to remember what this is. Yeah, if you're caught in the thicket of a sense of unworthiness, how are we gonna get to those lofty views?

• 33:58Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Afosu Jones-Cortez talks about how to do self compassion both on the cushion and off the cushion, and how to teach it to your kid.

• 34:12Speaker 04

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• 35:16Dan Harris?

  Now, we've done all of the arguments and counter-arguments. Let's drill down on the skillful means, like the how of this. I'll throw out some of the things that I know you recommend and you can maybe talk about them.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 35:27Dan Harris?

  Here are three things that I've heard you talk about. Journaling.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:32Dan Harris?

  Having written reminders around the house and having accountability partners.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay, now, for everybody who's got an edge and everybody who wants to maintain that edge, I know all those things can sound silly. They sounded silly to me, but I did them and they were so helpful. So, nobody's watching you and nobody's like, well, even if they are, who gives a fuck? Like, this is for you. You know what I'm saying? So, like, journaling is not a practice that I do every day, but when I was in the thick of it, I would sit in meditation, I'd come out and I'd write myself a very short letter, just recognizing my efforts, recognizing my challenges and just offering some words of support. It would seem a little silly at first, but by the end, it just felt so good and so cathartic.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  So, I'm a little bit more intermittent with journaling, but my second oldest daughter has a daily journaling practice. And I've seen for her how important it is in just processing her life and just for her to be her own witness. When I said earlier that like, only you know what it's like to be you. Journaling is a way of reflecting that truth that like, yeah, I'm the only one who really understands all of the ways in which life impacts me and what my intentions are and how I go forward. So, journaling is a really healthy feedback loop that I think is a wonderful practice. I have a little note on my bathroom mirror that says, "You're doing the best you can."

• 37:04Speaker 03

  I remember writing it down one day, just like as an affirmation practice for another thing I was doing, but I stuck it up on the wall. And every time I see it, I just feel better. I have another sticker on my refrigerator door that says, "There are so many things to be thankful for." All of these things are just ways in which we can begin to tweak the programming of our minds again. The constant negativity bias, it's short circuit that stream. Like if I'm brushing my teeth in the morning and just like thinking of all the stuff I have to do and how yesterday could have been better. And then I just look up and I see the words, you're doing the best you can. It pauses that stream for a moment and it gives me an opportunity to say, yeah, you know, I am. And let me give myself some grace for that.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  If I'm walking downstairs towards the kitchen and I'm feeling ungrateful or feeling entitled or feeling like things could be better. And I just see the words, there are so many things to be grateful for. It's another cause for pause. It's another, um, I love at, at the Inside Meditation Society in Berry, Massachusetts. There's a little note on the door in and out of the office. And it says, the pause that remembers. Yeah, it's just one of those things, you know, it just gives us a moment to pause and ask, you know, is this really true? Do I need to stay in this state of mind? And so you mentioned journaling, you mentioned notes. What was the third thing?

• 38:21Dan Harris?

  Accountability partner.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  Accountability partner. So my wife is my accountability partner. And I always ask, whenever I'm offering a self compassion workshop or class, find somebody who can be on this journey with you. And have somebody out there that you can check in with or that can check in with you. And just ask every once in a while, hey, how's your self talk going? I have a few self compassion accountability partners. Another is my good friend Tanzanite. Every once in a while, we'll just ask each other, you know, how are you talking to yourself? How's your self compassion practice going? It does not have to be a big deal. I know those words, you know, a self compassion accountability partner sounds like chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of self compassion. But what I really mean is just let somebody know that you're on this journey.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  They will want to be on this journey too. You can invite someone to be like, hey, I'm on a journey to be more kind to myself. Would you like to go on this journey with me? And all it's going to require is us checking in with each other from time to time. It's not that being more compassionate to yourself becomes another thing that you end up shaming yourself for not doing enough for. Having somebody to check in with from time to time can really help support this practice. It goes back to. The third jewel of the Buddhist Trinity, for lack of a better word, of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, to have community support. And so many of us, myself included, have a lone wolf attitude towards our practice.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  And it's really helpful to shift out of that and to just say, hey, I'd love to have some support as I'm going on this, as I'm going to embark on this journey to learn to be more kind of myself.

• 39:59Dan Harris?

  Just to say, in your defense of the imagined critics that we've conjured and are arguing against during this whole podcast, there is no shortage of data to support the argument that if you want to establish a habit, having other people with whom you do the thing is very helpful. And back to journaling, Ethan Cross is a psychology professor at University of Michigan. And he wrote a book called Chatter. He's come on the show before and he's done some work that shows that when people use their own names when they're talking to themselves.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 40:31Dan Harris?

  Afosu, I know you messed that up, but you got this.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 40:35Dan Harris?

  Or whatever, that that actually has a meaningful impact. And because we're advice giving creatures, we generally just don't take our own advice. It's called distant self-talk. That's the technical term. If you can create some distance, you're more likely to listen to the wiser part of your mind. So those are two things I wanted to say in support of you. And then just a little question. When you talk about putting a sticker up on your mirror that says you're doing your best. For me, I have no view on whether you're doing your best, but in terms of myself, when I think about that, immediately my inner lawyer is like, really? Are you doing your best? I don't know. I can think of a lot of things you fucked up or a time you decided to like, scroll through TikTok instead of, you know, changing the kitty litter or whatever else.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  True. Okay, so I'm thinking about you as my friend here, right? If you were to say to me like, man, I just spent all that time TikToking or whatever, am I really? But I'm like, but you made it to the interview, Dan. You look good. That's, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're here, you're present, you're delivering, you're nailing it where it counts. Listen, did the kitty litter get changed at some point? Yes, it did. We're all just doing the best we can. Now, sometimes that's not 100% true. It's okay, but most of the time it is true. I think most of us are generally doing the best that we can. And that can look like so many different things. I mean, who's the judge? Yeah, so. I'd have your back if you were arguing against yourself because hey,

• 42:04Speaker 03

  here you are and you're doing the thing, you're doing the thing that needs to get done. You're doing your best.

• 42:10Dan Harris?

  I appreciate that. So let's stay on this tip of, you know, off the cushion self compassion practices. Couple of other things that I've heard you talk about. A running inquiry you can try to keep going in your mind is, and this is me repeating you back to you. So I don't want to pretend this is an original idea on my end. The running inquiry that you recommend to people is the simple question, what if I wasn't so hard on myself right now? Or is this really true?

• 42:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. So this is where mindfulness really comes in as our supportive witness. This is an off the cushion practice that is supported directly by our on the cushion practice of being familiar with the term papancha or thought proliferation, just the ways in which our minds can just spew thoughts or chatter or spin scenarios or engage in very, very, you know, judgmental, harsh modes of thinking and relating. Having a mindfulness practice can support being able to check in at any given moment with what's happening with me right now. What's happening in my mind? What's happening in my body? How am I doing emotionally?

• 43:21Speaker 03

  When we are developing that kind of awareness, we can sense when the volume is really up on the inner critic. When the volume is really loud on the ways in which we can shame and mentally abuse ourselves. And we can then ask that inquiry, like, do I need to be this hard on myself right now to get this done? On the flip side, would it be possible for me to do what I'm doing right now and be a little bit more kind to myself? Is it possible for me to treat myself with more grace as I move through this? I mean, if you are packing to get to the airport or trying to get out of the house to get to work and maybe you're running a little bit behind, that

• 44:06Speaker 03

  The inner monologue can get pretty harsh, pretty fast. And having mindful awareness to notice that that's happening and then to offer another approach, like, do I need to be this hard on myself? Do I need to talk to myself like this? What if I could support myself, encourage myself in a healthier way? So just keeping that inquiry alive is super supportive. Also, in those moments where our negativity bias is really up, or if we're having anxiety about something we said or did, or something that's coming up, just asking that question, is it really true? There's this wonderful children's book called Tiger Tiger, Is It True? But it's one of those children's books that's like an everybody book.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  It's like when your mind is creating all of these scenarios, you can just ask yourself, is that true? And really, methodically, look at the way you're thinking about the thing and the reality of the thing. Or more specifically, the way you're thinking about yourself and the reality of what's true for you in the moment. I think many times, especially if that inner critic is being exceptionally loud, we will notice if we ask, is this really true? That it's inflating, conflating, deflating, it's all kinds of flatings are happening that are not consistent with reality. Yeah.

• 45:28Dan Harris?

  You're getting very close to using a naughty term there.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  It wasn't my intention.

• 45:39Speaker 03

  I'm gonna give myself some grace right now and know that that truth is, I wasn't trying to go there.

• 45:47Dan Harris?

  It really says more about my mind than yours.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  I think we should hang out, Dan.

• 45:56Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I get that sense, too. So let's talk about on the cushion. Everything you just listed, in my opinion, is extremely useful for, you know, free range living, but there are ways to practice self compassion in a much more intense fashion in formal meditation practice. So could you describe how that might work?

• 46:16Speaker 03

  Sure, sure. Once you become familiar with the type of approaches that you really respond to, then you'll find that you can be very creative on the cushion with how you incorporate this into your practice. I really enjoy doing a self compassion body scan. It's really paired with a gratitude practice. So when I'm sitting, I'll move my awareness through the body in a conventional body scan way where I just notice what's happening in the head, the face, the neck, shoulders, arms, and so on. But while I'm giving attention to each region of the body,

• 46:57Speaker 03

  I will also offer a sense of appreciation for each region. If we're doing like a, not a super micro intensive body scan, but like larger regions. So let's just notice our head, neck, and shoulders. So bringing attention to the head, the neck, and the shoulders, and just noticing what's there, and taking a moment to appreciate all that happens in this region of the body, all that happens in the head, all that happens in the neck, all that happens in the shoulders.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  And on the next in breath, collecting any tension that might be there. And as you breathe out, giving the head, neck, and shoulders permission to relax. And as you breathe in again, just acknowledging how much hard work happens here. And as you breathe out, just offering a simple thank you to this region. And you go through the entire body like this, you know, just noticing what's there, considering all the work that happens, giving those regions permission to relax, and then offering a sense of gratitude, or even a little thank you, a little mental thank you to all these different parts of the body. It's a really powerful practice to just acknowledge, like, oh, this whole body is doing so much, and so much of it I'm not even aware of,

• 48:15Speaker 03

  and I want to acknowledge it and offer gratitude. And in my experience, many of us are not as embodied as we could be. And one of the ways that we can learn to have a better relationship with ourselves is to be more in touch with the body. So a gratitude body scan, a self-compassion body scan, is one of the practices I really love to do on my own and to share with people. Another practice is connected to the traditional loving-kindness practices, where we are offering words of love and words of care towards ourselves and others,

• 48:59Speaker 03

  taking time to stay with yourself. This is also called meta-practice, so loving-kindness practice, et cetera. I know when I first started doing this practice, I really hated it. And I definitely skipped over offering it to myself, or I would just, you know, go through the motions. May I be well, may I be happy, may I be at ease? And so one of the ways to shortcut going through the motions is to, instead of just thinking of yourself as like an abstract, like, see if you can, you know, call up an image of yourself in your mind, or, again, to remember yourself as a small child, and to think of what that child needed at the time, or to think of what the child that lives within you needs right now,

• 49:44Speaker 03

  and offering words of kindness and reassurance to the young person within you, or just to the person that you are. One of the ways that I like to do this practice is connected to the third, more formal practice I'm gonna share, but it's just like, how am I doing in this moment? And, you know, based on how I'm feeling. I'm doing, what do I need? You know, what are the words that I need to hear right now? And offering them to myself. So I don't really stick with the traditional loving kindness phrases of may I be well? Or may I be happy? May I be at ease? Sometimes I do, but it can be a lot more specific than that. There's a wonderful book by Lama Sutrin Aliyoni. I don't know if I'm saying her last name right, but it's called Feeding Your Demons.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  And it involves asking any sort of unresolved parts of yourself in any given moment, like what do you want right now? And then what do you need? And so you can have that kind of inquiry with yourself, you know, as you're doing a loving kindness practice for yourself, is a check in and just noticing like, okay, well, are there any parts of me that really need some attention right now? And what do those parts want? And what do they need? And then offering yourself those words or wishes, you know? May whatever needs are there, may they be fulfilled, you know, may I feel safe? May I be successful? Or may I be able to relax in this moment?

• 51:06Speaker 03

  Or may I move beyond fear? Any of those types of ideas and relating to oneself. And then finally, the practice that I like to use the most is, again, to do a short mental, physical and emotional check in. How is my mind right now? How's my body right now? How are my emotions right now? And then just imagine that a best friend, a loved one, a puppy, a child, any person who you would immediately feel some positive regard towards, some care for. Imagine that they're feeling exactly how you're feeling and whatever you would say to them, say to yourself. So it's an extension of the loving kindness practice. But then you can also allow your heart to go out to yourself as well.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  The way that your heart would go out to a friend or a loved one or a child or an animal. Allow your heart to bear witness to whatever your reality is in the moment. And you don't have to do too much. You can just bring your heart's attention to wherever it needs to go and rest with that. Those are the three, a self compassion slash gratitude body scan. Loving kindness practice that can consider the inner child or that can offer phrases that are really specific to whatever your situation is. And the mind, body, heart reflection that includes whatever you might say to a friend or loved one who is feeling how you're feeling and offering those same words

• 52:34Speaker 03

  and movements of the heart towards yourself.

• 52:38Dan Harris?

  Those are great. I thought of another beef with self compassion. And this is my last one. I think some people could argue that maybe this is all a little selfish or self indulgent, and I totally disagree with that. And you, in talking to DJ, the guy who runs the show, you quoted the Vietnamese Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh, who said, he's not with us anymore, but who has said that when we meet our suffering with loving kindness, we do so not only for ourselves, but for all beings for all time.

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. So that's a paraphrase, but that's what I've gathered from Thay, from Thich Nhat Hanh. So this reflection is super important to me, and I'm glad you brought it up. When I was talking to a senior monastic at Plum Village, and I was asking him about whether or not folks who have like serious mental health challenges can achieve enlightenment, what his thought was on that. And I was asking for a friend, air quotes, and you know, asking for myself also. And his response was really powerful. Shout out to DJ for remembering that I brought that up

• 53:50Speaker 03

  because it's an important point. And shout out to Brother Phap Lin and everybody at Plum Village Monastery. And what he said to me in response to that question is, you know, go big or go home. Imagine your own particular flavor of suffering, whether it's mental health, trauma, et cetera. Think of every human being or even every living being who has experienced your flavor of suffering, going all the way back to the beginning of time. And now, think of every being who is experiencing a similar flavor of suffering right now on the planet Earth, out of all eight billion of us, or however many there are. And then even more if you're counting other beings. And then think of all the beings that will experience a similar flavor of suffering until the end of time.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  How does that make you feel? And for me, I just said, you know, it makes me realize that my suffering is not as personal as I experience it to be. This is actually part of the condition of being alive. And that, you know, my suffering is not 100% my own. Suffering is a wave that moves through the lived and conditioned experience. So on the one hand, it really opens the heart past the small self and to consider that, wow, you know, this is a part of the suffering that beings experience. So while it's visiting me, may I take care of it so that as it continues to go along

• 55:18Speaker 03

  its way, it's a little more healed. When I take care of my own suffering, especially the lineage of suffering that passes through me genetically, my parents, my grandparents, all the way back to the beginning of time. You know, when I'm healing the conditions that create suffering within myself, I do that on behalf of my ancestors. But I also do that on behalf of my children, and I do that on behalf of my contemporaries. And I do that on behalf of all that will happen in the future. So there's a big sense of the Bodhisattva vow to heal and to help and to save all beings that is involved in taking care of your suffering in this moment.

• 56:01Speaker 03

  So that it doesn't just roll on in perpetuity and cause more havoc. But as it's come to visit you, if you're developing the skills of mindfulness and compassion, and you can apply those to Your situation in the moment, that's not selfish at all. You are doing that as a way of healing your own legacy, your own lineage. You're doing that and you're making the world a safer and more habitable place for your contemporaries. And you are doing that to establish a safer and more healed world for those to come.

• 56:33Dan Harris?

  Yes, I think there's just an inexorable link between your inner weather and your outer behavior. And so you are, this is not selfish.

• 56:43Speaker 03

  No.

• 56:44Dan Harris?

  I want to play a bit of your music and have you talk about that. But one last question on self compassion. You've got kids, three kids, am I right about that?

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Four.

• 56:52Dan Harris?

  Four kids, okay. How or can you teach self compassion to your own children?

• 57:02Speaker 03

  I really, really love asking them, what would you say to a friend of yours? Who is feeling the same way? There's something about that inquiry that helps us to realize that we would give so much more space and grace to others than we might naturally give to ourselves, even if we were experiencing the same thing. It's actually shocking how young kids begin to develop that inner critic and how quickly they begin to believe it. You know, I've heard my own kids say bumping up against the challenge that they just inherently

• 57:45Speaker 03

  weren't good enough, that they would never figure something out, or that there was something fundamentally wrong with them. And I've heard other very young people echo those same sentiments, bumping up against challenges. And I think the long game is really important when you are wanting to introduce ideas around mindfulness, compassion, self compassion, et cetera, to young people. My root teacher, Bonti Buddha Rakita, talks about just planting Dharma seeds. And I'll say this to my son, my seven year old, if he's having like a real tough time with something, I'll say, Hey, you know, how would you treat a friend who was going through the same thing?

• 58:28Speaker 03

  And he might just bark back like, I don't know. And that's fine. I just want you to think about that. I just want you to have that in the back of your mind. You might not know what the answer is right now, but I just want that inquiry to be a part of how you move through challenges. So that when the rubber really hits the road, you've got that resource in there. When we share these types of things with young people, we have to keep the bar super low. You're not expect them to be able to digest them and put them into practice immediately, but to know that you have suggested an alternate approach. And that suggestion, and if you are consistent, not in an annoying way or in a way that's,

• 59:12Speaker 03

  you know, you're trying to enforce a state of mind, but just suggest, hey, there's another way to think about this, you know? Because for young people, your friends are everything. So just that question, how would you treat a friend, you know, in the same situation is a very, I think, effective entry point. So I've got two kids who are in elementary school and I've got two kids in college. And watching my older kids go through the teenage years and are now in their very young adult years and are able to resource themselves. As I mentioned, my daughter journals regularly. They see a therapist, not because they're in crisis, but just for regular mental maintenance. They have a sitting practice.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  They know how to practice compassion for themselves. And even when it's not immediately available, it catches them before they fall all the way. And I'm still there to annoy them with it. So, so, yeah, I think just planting the seeds and trusting that they'll grow.

• 1:00:15Dan Harris?

  Coming up, we're going to play some of Afosu's Dharma-inspired music and talk about it.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

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• 1:00:54Speaker 05

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• 1:01:14Speaker 06

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• 1:01:28Dan Harris?

  Before I let you go, let's just play a clip of your music and get you to talk about it a little bit.

• 1:01:32Speaker 05

  I'd love that.

• 1:01:34Speaker 07

  Look at yourself in this moment. Ask yourself, "How do you feel?" All that you know is the moment. That's the only thing that's real. Look at yourself in this moment. Ask yourself, "How do you feel?" All that you know is this moment. That's the only thing that's real. Look at yourself in this moment. Ask yourself, "How do you feel?" All that you know is this moment. It's the only thing that is real. Moments they come and these moments they go. If we come back again, it's the infinite flow. But until then, we still in the moment forever. The past is forgotten, the future is never. The present is all that we know and can measure. Joy in the pain and the pain in the pleasure. Making it better or making it worse. If it's the second, then make it reverse. Until the day that I'm laid in the hearse, I'mma just be out here making it work. I fell in love with cocaine as a flirt. Search for the feeling, escaping the herd.

• 1:02:18Speaker 07

  Mix it with Tito's, don't mix it with needles. I'm wet like a fish and I'm high like an eagle. Becoming the villain, supplying my ego. One moment a hero, the next one I'm evil. I don't know who I am half of the time. Let it all go, if I block out, it's fine. I'm sick of dealing with life as a chore. Really don't wanna feel nothing no more. Do it from sundown to sundown again. Raising myself for the come-down again. Hating myself in the come-down again. Wait for the party to come 'round again. I know my teacher would be disappointed. All of the training he gave me was pointless, but even though right now I feel like I'm worthless, I'mma just look at my mind and observe it.

• 1:02:48Dan Harris?

  Tell us a little bit about what we just heard.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  So that was the lead single from my album, In This Moment, the album I released in 2021. That song was really a turning point for me in terms of creating music that was an extension of my practice, creating music that was an honest expression of my reality, that was not trying to like game the system in any way, but just to really just be as raw and as honest and as authentic as I could be as an artist. I had always thought of myself as a rapper first and my journey as a teacher was not an ambitious one. It's something that happened. I was doing it as a community service and it just kept growing.

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  And I had gotten to a point where I was really exhausted with my life as a musician being one way and my life as a teacher, practitioner, a parent, et cetera, being another way. And I just wanted to put everything together and have it all be one thing. In order to do that, I needed to just be honest about where I was in my life. And In This Moment was the song that, I guess it's an extension of a journaling practice because it is a song that helped me write my way out of my depression and it helped me to see how my practice, even though it was imperfect, has been there for me the whole time.

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  So the last line of that verse is, even though right now I feel like I'm worthless, I'mma just look at my mind and observe it. And the chorus says, look at yourself in this moment. Ask yourself, how do you feel? All that you have is this moment. That's the only thing that's real. So the first verse is really me expressing the darkness that I had found myself in, but having a practice to be able to just sit and notice what is happening in this moment. And even though I feel like I'm worthless, I can still look at my mind and observe it. That whole sequence of like despair ends in a moment of practice. And from that practice, the second verse arises. There's a point in the second verse that's really important to me.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  And it says, I am the child, I am the parent, I am illusion, I am awareness, I am the pain that I didn't take care of that turned into all of the things that I'm scared of. And it's just this moment of recognition. I was very impressed with myself when I wrote that, but it's also like such a- Important moment of recognition that I am the pain that I didn't take care of that turned into all of the things that I'm scared of. And it is that call to self compassion. The following lines after that line are, what do I notice is none of it lasts. Same as the lightning and thunder that crash. All of the thoughts and the feelings and fears stay for a moment and then disappear. Everything in me is naturally free. All that's required is I let it be.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  And so that's the other gift of practice is that our feelings and our thoughts, our emotions, they feel so intractable. But if you just watch them and see their true nature, they pass, they come and go. And I would add that if we watch them with an attitude of kindness, you know, then healing is possible. And so towards the end of that second verse, you know, I am enough is the mantra repeated for all of the love and compassion that's needed. And yes, I might fall again, but then I'll rise again, sitting cross legged and closing my eyes again. So that song that we just listened to, that was really the beginning of this grand experiment of can I make Buddhist themed hip hop that doesn't suck? And that is honest to my experience.

• 1:06:30Speaker 03

  That's not trying to speak from the sutras, but to speak from the heart.

• 1:06:35Dan Harris?

  Final question for me, if people want to learn more about you, get your music, hear your Dharma talks, whatever, where can they do that?

• 1:06:42Speaker 03

  An easy place is to go to my website, bornimusic.com. So B O R N, the letter I, the word music.com. All my stuff is there. And another super easy place to go and you'll see pictures is my Instagram. And I'm just at bornimusic, at B O R N, the letter I, music.

• 1:07:01Dan Harris?

  Such a pleasure to get to know you. Thanks for coming on.

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much, Dan. Dude, let's, let's, let's hang out, let's do stuff.

• 1:07:09Dan Harris?

  I agree.

• 1:07:20Dan Harris?

  Thanks again to Afosu Jones-Cortez, always great to have him on the show. Don't forget to sign up for my new app, 10% with Dan Harris. You can get it at danharris.com. There's a free 30-day trial if you want to try before you buy. If you sign up for the free trial, that will cover you through our New Year's Meditation Challenge with Joseph Goldstein. That runs from January 5th through the 11th. It's going to be great. Last thing to say here, I want to thank everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

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