Mo Gilligan: Why success can lead to ego and how to laugh through misery

Is there a reason so many comedians can struggle with their mental health? Mo Gilligan knows all too well that finding the funny in everything can sometimes mean having to suppress sadness. In this chat, Fearne and Mo talk about how a single passing comment can stay with you and eat away at your self-esteem over time, and why we need to be better at celebrating our talent and achievements. Plus, can scrolling through memes be a positive form of escapism when you’re low...? Mo Gilligan: Beginning, Middle, and End is available to listen to now! If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: How to Laugh When You’ve Been To Hell and Back https://pod.fo/e/2351d0 Fats Timbo https://pod.fo/e/1819a6 Zayn https://pod.fo/e/23b207 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that questions what success really means. Today, I'm chatting to Mo Gilligan.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  There's a part of me that always wants to yearn and strive for more. Like, when I wake up in the morning, I'm like, this is what I want to do. I can see how to get there, but in order to get there, I need to also be extremely present, more than ever. I think now I try my best of feeling vulnerable again. That feels very nice. It's a really nice feeling to go into situations where, you know, you're doing something, you're like, oh, this is different, I'm being judged. So yeah, going back to the vulnerability and being in the present makes me yearn for more, but also stay more grounded.

• 1:11Fearne Cotton?

  I'm sat here with a painful ankle today. You might have seen me already warbling on about this on Instagram, but I had a fall. I fell over when I was out running the other day. I don't even know how it happened. I was running, I was listening to a podcast, actually, and my foot went over and the next thing, I did a sort of cartoon fall onto the floor, landed on my shoulder, cut my knee open, ruined my brand-new leopard print leggings, which I'm still livid about, although someone has said on Instagram, make them into cycling shorts, which I'm definitely doing. But this lovely lady, I fell into a lady, and this lovely lady said, right, sit on the wall, take some breaths, you're in shock. Now, what I want you to do is go home and have a cup of tea.

• 1:56Fearne Cotton?

  And that is what I talked about on Instagram, because that line has stuck with me. We're all rushing around too much, way too much. And also, I'm really bored of being served things by my algorithm about being more motivated and doing more and achieving more, etc. I think actually, most of us need to do the opposite and just have a cup of tea at home and deep breathe. So I did. So I've got a little bit of a painful ankle. I'm hobbling around, limping about, but luckily, for this job, I just get to sit in a chair. So I can be comfortably interviewing today's guest, who is someone that I am a huge fan of. Someone that has brought me so much laughter, so much joy.

• 2:41Fearne Cotton?

  I think this person might be the funniest person ever. I've never watched one of their videos on Instagram or seen them on TV and not been howling with laughter. It is, of course, the brilliant Mo Gilligan. Mo, the triple BAFTA-winning comedian, actor, presenter, content creator, and now fellow podcaster. Mo's new show is called Mo Gilligan: Beginning, Middle, and End. And I bloody love a new podcast recommendation, so I am very much looking forward to getting stuck into this one. Mo's asking some of the UK's biggest stars about the moments that made them and the legacy they want to leave behind. And he's performing at the O2 in a couple of weeks, which is absolutely huge.

• 3:24Fearne Cotton?

  We talk about all sorts here, like wanting to be likeable, being relatable, two things that Mo is excellent at. Feeling okay with celebrating ourselves, which, let's be honest, we're all absolutely terrible at. Also, making an active decision to laugh in miserable situations. It's such a good coping mechanism. When I remember to do it, I'm like, oh, this is such a good way of seeing the world, rather than just feeling bleak about everything. And again, Mo is the expert at that one.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Hey, this is Penn and Kim Olderness from Laughlines.

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• 4:29Speaker 05

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 5:02Speaker 06

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• 5:35Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, on with the show in a moment, but a quick reminder that I would love to see you at the Happy Place festivals this summer. We're at Gunnersbury Park on July the 12th and 13th, and Tatten Park on August the 30th and 31st. We've got a new area this year, which I am so excited about. We have a hormone teepee. There's going to be much going on in there. Menstrual health, menopause, hormonal balance, and you can learn about all of it from expert speakers and specialists. And... While we're on speakers, oh my goodness, there are going to be so many brilliant people on the talk stage across the weekends. Come and see Jordan Stevens, he was so great when we had him on the podcast.

• 6:16Fearne Cotton?

  Vogue Williams, who I'm a massive fan of, and Millie MacIntosh, who again, did a brilliant episode of Happy Place all about drinking, so I'm sure she's going to talk about that at the festival. And if you want to get into some arts and crafts, or some meditation, some movement classes, keep an eye on our social media because we're going to be announcing all the workshops that you can sign up for very, very soon. If you haven't already, get your tickets now at happyplacefestival.com and I'll see you there. Right, here we go, this is the show.

• 7:07Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, Mo.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Big up, man.

• 7:10Fearne Cotton?

  Hey, we've just had a chat about-

• 7:11Speaker 02

  We've never really met properly, have we?

• 7:12Fearne Cotton?

  Have we not? I don't know, do you know, I conflate seeing people on the telly and have I met them in real life?

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:17Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm like hardcore Masked Singer fan.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Oh, big ups, man.

• 7:21Fearne Cotton?

  Hardcore. We're both on Gogglebox, so occasionally watch that back. Have we not met?

• 7:26Speaker 02

  I don't know, I feel like, I feel like I know you because I've seen you on my television screens for so long. So I guess you must have this a lot when you're in the street and someone's like, "Oh, I know you, what's your name again?" And you're like-

• 7:36Fearne Cotton?

  You're from Britain?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  You're like, "Yeah, my, my, my name's Mo." "Oh, I knew it was you." But yeah, I feel like that's the connection I have with you.

• 7:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  I just feel like I know you.

• 7:44Fearne Cotton?

  We have met.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I feel like we might have met like a, you know, like on a red carpet somewhere, where I normally meet a lot of people but I don't know that I've met them because it's so quick.

• 7:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  And it feels like you're on TV a lot of times on a red carpet because you're on, you know, everyone's there.

• 7:59Fearne Cotton?

  It's terrifying.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  I used to really like it. And it's not that I don't like it so much now, but it's that thing where you're like, "Ah..." I just need the picture, innit?

• 8:07Fearne Cotton?

  I do not like doing that. It's so awkward and everyone's shouting and you don't know how long you're meant to stand there.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man.

• 8:13Fearne Cotton?

  And then you move along a bit and then if a more famous person comes along, you're dead.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Oh, it's done, it's finished, yeah, yeah. Wrap it up, man, wrap it up. I think that's what I realised about the red carpet, because for me, it was always like, I really just wanna get on the thing and show off how, you know, the suit I've got on or the blazer or whatever. And then you get there and sometimes if you've got something to promote, you're like, ah, this is a perfect opportunity. But also, you're like, you know, if I do one, I'm always, if I do one, I wanna do everyone. Do you know what I mean? I wanna say it in an interview.

• 8:42Fearne Cotton?

  You're chatting to the Raines people, you're chatting to GM people, yeah, all of them, yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  And it is great, but then there is a part where you're like, you know, someone's saying, okay, you need to get inside and do the thing or, you know, you're on or whatever and you're like, okay, cool, I realise I've got a job to do. As much as it's fun, but I still like going. I think there's something about getting dressed up that I just still enjoy.

• 9:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I like that.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, there's something about getting dressed up, but there's something also nice about going home and just getting like some food on the way home.

• 9:08Fearne Cotton?

  That bit.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Which is like.

• 9:09Fearne Cotton?

  You never get fed at those things, no one realises this.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  The food is not food, it's like. I think the first thing I went to was the Q Awards, I think. We had like Guinea fowl and I never had it before and.

• 9:20Fearne Cotton?

  I've never eaten that.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  A part of me was trying to convince myself, hmm, this is nice, because it's upper, you know, it's upper class, hmm, and you eat it, you're like, nah.

• 9:28Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, I'm gonna go home for some toast, thanks.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  I wouldn't buy it, you know what I mean? You're like, hmm, it's nice, but I wouldn't buy it.

• 9:34Fearne Cotton?

  No one's bought Guinea fowl before, no, thank you.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  That's where I'm at with a lot of those events, it's good to go, but it's also great to go home, man.

• 9:40Fearne Cotton?

  It's over stimulating, I'm exhausted after those things, like completely drained. I mean, I say this, I go to them all the time, I haven't been on a red carpet in, I couldn't even tell you the last time I went on one. I'm just sort of, I avoid that stuff. I just wanna do like, I don't know, just be at home.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Oh, being at home is the best.

• 9:55Fearne Cotton?

  Being at home is the best.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  People forget how good it is until you've been away from home for a bit. But you know, just that's the one thing I think I enjoy the most about being on tour and you're on the road and like being home. Like I have my sofa, you know, everything's in place where it's the smell. And it's just small things, as soon as I get home, I just like to do the housework, I like to put my recycling away and, do you know what I mean? Sometimes, I'll be honest, when it comes to the suitcases, I am guilty of leaving a suitcase for like four months.

• 10:24Fearne Cotton?

  What? Do you wanna hear what I do? When I get in from holiday, I open the door.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:30Fearne Cotton?

  I say to the kids, right, go and watch TV. And I've unpacked every suitcase and done the first load of washing within an hour.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I I'm fifty fifty. Sometimes I do that. If it's a small case and I'm like, okay, cool, I know I've got some gym stuff in there. But I think the last time I went, well, I said last time I went away, I went away last year. And there was a case there that was there for at least six months. I just forgot about it. Cause I've got different wash bags as well.

• 10:55Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  So I've got my touring wash bag and then I've got my holiday wash bag. And then I've got like a, I'm just gonna go somewhere. So it's got all my essentials in, so I didn't need anything in the case. And it's until I'm like.

• 11:04Fearne Cotton?

  It's just that it's there.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, but I just forgot. So I I I was like, where's, where's those trainers? And I generally thought, I was like, oh, I think someone stole them. Someone's, someone stole them. I don't know where they are. And I'm like, oh, right, they're in that case. Yeah, it wasn't.

• 11:18Fearne Cotton?

  Just left them rotting in a case for six months.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, just rotting in a case, man, it's not good.

• 11:22Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you're you're sort of on a never ending world tour. You're constantly doing these gigs and you've got two big gigs coming up.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:28Fearne Cotton?

  Towards the end of this month, you're playing the O two.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 11:31Fearne Cotton?

  Do you shit yourself before a gig like that? That is an enormous audience.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Um, it's weird because I'd be lying if I said I wasn't nervous. I'm definitely nervous when I go into those bigger shows. But I try to make sure that I don't play out what's gonna happen bigger in my head than what is on stage. Because essentially I'm like, well, I'm gonna go on stage. I've done this before. I'm gonna tell material that I've done before. And these are audience members that are coming and, you know, the majority have seen me before. And if they haven't, they have an idea of who I am. I think when I've, when I go into a place where I'm like, oh, no, nobody knows me here at all. Now I've got to prove something to them. Am I funny? Am I likable? So I think, um, I, if I play out the scenario bigger in my head, I can get really nervous. But I have a lot of my family and my friends around, just like in the dressing room.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  I try to keep the same aura and nice people around me. We joke around before the show. We, we sometimes have food, we have drink, we play cards. And that just brings me at ease. Yeah, there's only a couple of times where I'd like to be left by myself. But the majority of the time I'm like, yeah, what, what could go wrong? Do you know what I mean?

• 12:40Fearne Cotton?

  Like loads of things.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Like everything, but then you're like, well, that's, that's kind of like the gamble of when you do those shows.

• 12:45Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  You know?

• 12:46Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what's so interesting? So just there, you said, am I, am I gonna do well? Am I likable? And that is such a. It's such a strange term that I totally understand because certainly for the stuff you're doing, not only stand up. You know, not all comedians are likeable. Sometimes comedians really riff off the fact that they say things that are outrageous. And you don't have to like them. But, you know, you've also made that move to mainstream TV and presenting. You do have to be likeable.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, most definitely.

• 13:13Fearne Cotton?

  Like, it's such a huge part of it. And, you know, as a presenter, not as a comedian, it's probably eighty percent of the job is being likeable. How do you find that? Because I think for me, it definitely started to spill into other bits of my life. And without me knowing, you know, it's all completely subconscious that I would put so much weight on being liked by anyone that I encountered, strangers or people on the school run or even my friends. I would be so concerned by if I was liked or not because it felt, I guess it was like a currency in terms of if I'm not likeable, I haven't got a job and I'm screwed. It felt heavier than it should have. How do you, how does it sit with you?

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think for me, especially as a comic, my stuff is very, I see the world in my, in my vision in some ways. So I see things that I'm like, oh, that's kind of funny. We can turn that into a thing. Or I have this story that someone might connect to, but you also might not connect with this story. So, but it's like, there's a part of it where I'm like, I need to become likeable. I don't like try to envision like, oh, people like me. But there is a part where I'm like, I'm going to tell you this and I want you to see my pain in it, my misery, but also how silly and funny it is. So that's what I want you to like about me and what I'm about to tell you or what I'm about to present. But then I think, like you're saying, eighty percent of it is likability and then the twenty percent is being relatable.

• 14:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  You know, and the more you get to do this job, I feel like your audience can then start to disconnect even more. Because they're like, oh, well, we've seen you do that thing and that thing now. And, or sometimes just the television, I feel like it's just a inherent thing with, with like culture at the moment where you're like, you're on TV. And it's, it's interesting when I meet a lot of young people, ah, I don't want to do TV, I want to do social media. And I'm like, yeah, but there's still that connection of you're on the television, you know? And there is that relatability where you're like, oh, I, oh, I, I can relate to this person, you know? And I feel like that's for, for myself anyway, when it's coming to create content or when it's, you know, writing a show or being on television. I always want to feel like.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  The person you're gonna see on television is the person you're gonna see down the road.

• 15:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's not always the case though, is it?

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:28Fearne Cotton?

  You meet, I'm sure you've met people and gone, oh my god, they're right asshole.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes you meet people, you're like, oh, oh, rah, okay, cool, I thought he was, I thought he was really nice, man. That's a shame, anyway.

• 15:39Fearne Cotton?

  It's the pits.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's part, I only, I only really learnt that probably, cause I've not been doing this that, that long. So I've only learnt that in the short space of time that I've done it. But then sometimes I also kinda understand that like everyone has their off day sometimes.

• 15:53Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  So it's not even like, I can't even judge someone based upon that, it's just like, it's just not their day today.

• 15:59Fearne Cotton?

  It's easy to, cause you could go, oh my god, you know, I met Brad Pitt and he was a dick all cause he was having a bad hour. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:06Fearne Cotton?

  But it's funny with comedians, because so often, you know, I've interviewed comedians over the years or encountered them or worked with them on Celebrity Juice and some are pretty consistent, like, I'm, I'm sort of getting the vibe from you and I've seen you in all different iterations of work, that you are a chirpy sort of fun person most of the time.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  I'd say with television is what you see.

• 16:24Fearne Cotton?

  There's a lot of that, oh, like a lot of comedians are shy, awkward, a bit sad.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's funny.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  I think, I think that is though, the, because comics always have to see the funny and stuff. And there's a way that when you're on stage, you, you, you kinda switch on to sometimes the caricature of who you are.

• 16:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  And this is just my perception of, of comedy. And that's where sometimes, you know, even I meet some comics and I'm like, oh, hey, what's up? And you're like, hey, what's up, man? And I'm like, oh, rah, why, why are you off with me? What have I done? But then just realising, you're like, oh, like, that's who you really are.

• 16:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  You know, off stage, as opposed to on stage. And some people are almost heightened versions, you know, of, of themselves. And I think, I think comedy does that to a lot of comedians where you have to be the version of yourself, you're always looking for the funny. And I think it's, it's especially with comedians, you can't really have an off day.

• 17:17Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  It's like, hey, what's up, man? Uh, what's, what's good? Like, there's times where I've been in the airport and I've missed a flight and I'm like, okay, how am I gonna get? To there, to there.

• 17:26Fearne Cotton?

  So stressful.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  And things like that really stress me out.

• 17:28Fearne Cotton?

  I hate that stuff.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  It's the one thing that stresses me out, because I never, I never miss flights. Like, it's the one thing, I'm like, I never, I don't like being stranded in a place.

• 17:36Fearne Cotton?

  No, I also wanna get to the airport super early and like, go to Boots and go to WH Smith and like, get my bits. That's like a big part of it.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, same.

• 17:43Fearne Cotton?

  I love that bit.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  I, I think even for myself, there's times where I'm stressing and I'm like, and someone's like, hey, what's happening, mate? What's going on? You look a bit sad today. And I'm like, I have to switch on. I can't say, well, I've just missed my flight. And I can't get home and I've got a job to do the next day. I'm like, yeah, man, you know, I've just gotta be the person that they only know that they've ever seen on a special or on television. So I do think a lot of comics definitely, um, battle depression. I think that happens a lot with a lot of comics. I think there's a lot of people in the arts in general, but I definitely for comedians, just from comics that I know where, you know, someone's going through something, you're like, you're all right. And you're like, yeah, man, yeah. And then they've got to switch it on. And it's until you might speak to them properly and they're like, yeah, I was going through something. You know, that time I seen you, I was like, oh, oh, okay.

• 18:28Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, can you always, obviously, it's part of your job to find funny in everyday relatable situations. But outside of looking for that for work and for new writing material, can you see humour in most situations? So I think that is a gift, because often it's not what's happening to you, it's obviously the reaction you're having to it. And if you can find a tinge of humour in it, it can, you know, turn being mortified into mildly embarrassed. Or it can turn something really stressful into something that you're coping with a little bit better. I think it's a good coping mechanism.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  No, it is. It definitely covers up what might be bubbling on the surface sometimes, because you're able to just laugh it off but also share the laughter in the thing that might be misery for you as well. And I think that's the thing with, with stand-up, hence why I think those, there's a lot of comics that might battle with depression. Because you're not really addressing how bad the situation was. You're talking about, oh, yeah, you know. You could be on stage talking about something absolutely horrific, but you've seen the funny side and everyone else does. So you never address that. It was like, you was allowed to cry during that moment or be angry, but. I think always looking for the funny can sometimes make you realise within your reality is that, okay, cool.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Maybe I need to take a step back a little bit and just realise that that was a bit of a dark turn sometimes as well. Um, but it is a quite cool skill. You can diffuse a lot of situations with humour, which I've found sometimes I get into a bit of road rage. And I had this moment, I had this good month where I was getting into so many little parts of road rage. Now I'm like, take, take a step back. And then I had a few times where I stopped the car and be like, look, we can't do this. It's too, it's too expensive to get into this road rage. And they look at me and they go, yeah, man, yeah, you got a point, man. Yeah. Hang on. Don't I know you.

• 20:21Fearne Cotton?

  The window goes up.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, there, there's a lot of times with comedy, how you can use it to diffuse situations, which is always quite nice. I think that's the kind of skill or, you know, superpower you have sometimes to diffuse the, the most, you know, hectic of situations.

• 20:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Which is like really cool.

• 20:39Fearne Cotton?

  And also just, I mean, what, you're making people laugh, but obviously you, I'm sure your own jokes make you laugh too. But just laughing is therapy in itself, I think. If I've been feeling really shit, I will always reach for something that's gonna make me laugh. Whether it's a podcast or a TV show or something that reminds me to just see the funny side of things. But also to get all those like oxytocin going and just feeling more relaxed is so good for the soul.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I spend a lot of time on tour just watching memes. I can watch them for a good hour. And the guy's always in the car and they're always like, oh, why, why you spend so much time? And I was like, this is my disconnect.

• 21:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  I just wanna laugh at something so silly.

• 21:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  That I'm not looking for it, I'm just finding it. And sometimes there is a bit where I'm just scrolling for hours and. But at the same time, it's, it's my disconnect. It's my little, I generally have a little cup of tea. I have some, some biscuits. I have some crisps. And my headphones in, I just wanna watch just my little reels and my little memes that I find.

• 21:36Fearne Cotton?

  I wanna watch people falling over, like really specifically. That is for me my favourite.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  People falling over, but there's like.

• 21:44Fearne Cotton?

  But not hurting themselves badly, but just like falling in mud.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Do you ever watch the people that like voiceover of people like pretending to be animals and stuff? They're, they're the ones that are like so funny. There's this guy who does it and he like, he would do the voice of like the dog.

• 22:00Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right, okay.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Thing or whatever it is, but it's so, they're, those ones I sit there and I'm so engaged, I'm like, I believe that this dog is saying what it's saying to the owner.

• 22:10Fearne Cotton?

  That's not coming off of my algorithm, I'm not getting fed that.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  But then saying, I get some weird stuff on my algorithm, I'll get, um, you know, like I'm watching something really interesting, there's like ten places you can never go and I'm like, oh, right, this is interesting, boy. And I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna go there. I'm like, no, man, we would never go there. Do you know what I mean? We're not going to Alcatraz anytime soon.

• 22:30Fearne Cotton?

  No, although quite interesting.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, but then, like, I think that's the thing, isn't it? Like, for me, I need that thing to disconnect and not find the funny and just have it presented to me.

• 22:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, what about when you come off stage? Because, like you say, you know, you're playing the O2, it's a big deal, there's, there is pressure there, whether you're feeling calm about it or not, there is a pressure you've got paying people who want a great time. And you've got to be on your A game and then you've got that overwhelming experience of thousands of people in front of you laughing at you, like, that's not normal. That's a really extreme situation to find yourself in, or, you know, winning a BAFTA or hosting the Brits. These are big, overstimulating experiences. What's the, is there a come down or what's that bit after like?

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, when, when you have one of those shows and you know that everything went right, you know, the material went right, they laughed at the, you know, the, the crowd work I'd done, I got a roar of laughter. Um, it is an amazing feeling and I used to really always kind of feed that feeling a lot. Especially when I first started touring and doing shows, I'd wanna go out with my friends, I'm like, let's go out to a club and let's get bottles and, because you wanna keep feeding that adrenaline rush in some ways. And that would always be the thing, saying to the guys, all right, guys, cool, we ready? Everyone, jump in the car, get to the club and you get treated like, hey, what's up, man? And it, it feels like it is literally how the films are, hey, what's up, man? Yeah, we got your table and it felt like.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Like the high would never end in some ways. But then I always say like the crash and the fall was even bigger.

• 24:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Makes sense because you know, you you go home and you you've been you're you're drinking and like you're still on the high of how good the show was and you're around, again, I'm around my my close friends. And you get home and you you go to sleep and I would sleep because it's adrenaline. People don't realise when you get that adrenaline rush. Once it comes down, you I would sleep for like ten hours and be like, I'm I'm so tired the next day. Um.

• 24:32Fearne Cotton?

  You're giving off a lot of energy.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and I feel like I just think there's a, I'm very much into like frequencies and energies and I think when you have a mass amount of people, they're all there for enjoyment. They're all laughing. That's all that's very positive energy frequency in the room and it's all being directed at you from all different corners. It's very powerful. It's very, very, very powerful. It's until you do stand up, I'd say. Or you've, you know, you've been in that situation where you're like, oh, my god, everyone, I don't, I I've not had it much in television, but definitely in stand up where I felt a bit down or I'm like, oh, I'm really tired and I get on stage and I'm like, phew, just had this injection of energy. Um, I don't know where it's come from, but then I've kind of started to realise, I'm like, I feel like

• 25:18Speaker 02

  you you kind of know when you do stand up, be like, like every comic will say, you're in the room, you're like, oh, tonight feels nice, man. Like, I can hear them and I'm like, I I look at my tour manager Van and I'm like, hey, they sound good, man. And it's like anything you say that they you've got them in the palm of your hand is a very nice feeling. I think now, though, when I whenever I do those shows, my mindset has changed because I take it a lot more serious. I'm not trying to kind of, you know, live the the high life in a sense of like, I do the show, I go out and party, whereas now I think I enjoy more just having like two minutes to myself off off stage and just like, phew. That was really fun. And that's now my, my thing that I like.

• 26:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  That's where I really kind of get to hone in on, you know, what I've just done and be like, ah, take a minute.

• 26:07Fearne Cotton?

  You've got to process it.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think because I wasn't processing it before. And the way I was processing it was like, let's keep the high going. Let's, let's keep adding a little bit more into the high meter, keep it up. And then the next day you're, I would be shattered.

• 26:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Ah, fun. I'd be so tired.

• 26:21Fearne Cotton?

  I bet.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  And just being like, ah.

• 26:23Fearne Cotton?

  That's a very well-practiced route. Like every rock star in the history of time has gone, let's keep the party going. Let's keep the high. And

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:31Fearne Cotton?

  The crap, you've got further to fall. The crash is, is really big.

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• 28:11Speaker 09

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• 28:44Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, does playing the O2 feel like you imagined? Because I'm sure growing up, or as soon as you thought, stand up is my thing, you're gonna look to those venues. And if you're an optimistic person, have your sights on, I'm gonna be playing on that stage one day. But of course, you know, it's never quite the same. You know, I had goals myself growing up as a teenager with like, when I do this show or when I get to that level. And you get there and you're like, oh, that's a bit disappointing.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know what's interesting with the O2? I used to try and do this whole like, pretend I wasn't really bothered about it.

• 29:21Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Because one of my friends once said, he's like, oh, you know, the O2, you know, one comic said that, you know, when you play it, it's not the best room to play because, you know, like, the laughter gets like, it's got a delay on it. So you'll say something, it's got like a three, four second delay and then people laugh.

• 29:36Fearne Cotton?

  God, that's annoying.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  And I remember taking that and running with it. And I was just like, yeah, I'm not bothered about doing the O2 because I heard the laughter has a delay. I'm not really, I even said it once. I had a quote for some publication and they was like, would you want the O2? And I was like, not bothered. Like, I've always loved it as a concept venue. I've seen tons of musicians perform there. And there is a part of me where I look around and I was like, I'd love to be on that stage one day. But then in the back of my head, I was like, yeah, but the laughter's got five second delay. So, don't really know. It's okay, Beyonce, you can have it tonight. And then when the call came of like, oh, we're thinking of doing a show at the O two. And, you know, what about you doing a show there? And I was like, ah, okay, um.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Because I had the opportunity to do my own show there. And I didn't feel like at that time, I was like, eh, I don't know if it's my time to do my show there just yet. I didn't wanna peak because it's such a big venue. It's so iconic. It's such a name. And I I made the decision to say, well, what about if I done my Mo Gilligan and friend show? And do a black takeover and have a a bunch of comics who are who have come before me. And some who are up and coming and some that, you know, were on the same kind of playing field, if you wanna say. And um do that show. And it never happened before. And it felt so much better because I didn't have the pressure of just like, oh, we're all looking at you. To to do something and bring everyone else in and get everyone else involved. It felt like such a family environment. Everyone was excited.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  And whether it was people coming to the show, people performing, um some people who hadn't done comedy for that long. But it was like, just, yeah, jump on the stage, man.

• 31:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  That felt like a a much better feeling than being like, well, I'm the one. This is my time to shine. And then I got the opportunity to do again. And I was like, no, let's do a part two of the show. Because there was that, eh, can we do it again? Or was it just a jinx because it was the first one? And I was like, no, let's do it again, man. Get another bunch of great comics on there. So doing it this time myself, i- it's gone back to that. It's just you now, isn't it? So, yeah, you now have to deliver the goods. We done this promo video, right? And um the O two was empty. And I was like, yeah, you can do a little promo video, like, take as long as you need. And doing this promo video, I was so nervous. I don't know why. I was like, my friend was filming me and he was like, okay, add action.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Hey, what's up, man? This is the biggest show you're ever gonna e- experience. Yeah. I was so nervous. I don't know why. I don't know. It's the pressure of it.

• 32:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't that pressure, even though I've got to do it before. I think before it was different because I've got a bunch of other comics. They're nervous. They're excited. But now doing it by myself, there is a pressure that comes with it and realizing you're like, oh, it's it's just me.

• 32:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's a big deal.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Six other comics.

• 32:28Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I heard you talking to um Jake on High Performance.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:31Fearne Cotton?

  And you were talking about, you know, having these big goals and and really honing in on them and going, that's what I've got my sights on. You've done, you know, you're gonna be doing the O2, you've done Jimmy Fallon, you're touring globally. What, where, do you have to take it further? Or do you get to a point where you're like, I'm happy just working the circuit and doing what I'm doing? Or do you always have to go higher? Is there always another goal above?

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, a little bit. I think I always wanna keep pushing what I'm able to do. Because I think the things I've been able to do in a short space of time. There was the time where I was like, oh, is that even possible? And then the phone rings, you're like, oh, that thing's happening. Or, you know, it's like, oh, what about hosting the Brits? And you're like, uh, uh, yeah, I didn't think I'd be able to do that, but yeah, let's do it. So, um, there, it's a balance, if I'm honest, because there's parts of me that, where I am now in life, I really enjoy the smaller things in life. I really enjoy, like, like I was saying, like, being at home, being around my family and my friends, and celebrating people's birthdays and being, being really present. I really enjoy that more than I ever have. But then there's always the part of me that doesn't wanna get comfortable

• 33:37Speaker 02

  and wants to keep reaching higher levels, just to see where they go. Because I think whenever I started television and I was doing stand-up, I was very like, well, you know, do one tour, that's okay. And like, oh, what about doing a run, you know, on the West End? And I was like, I don't think anyone's gonna come. And then tickets sell out and they're like, ah, cool, what about, you know, having your own TV show? And you're like, oh, cool, man, well, one season. You're like, hmm, you know, it's, it's nice to have one, that's okay, man. And then they're like, yeah, cool, it's been renewed for another, which is, of course, is what, was what you want. And you're like, okay, cool. And whether you start winning awards and stuff. So I think for my, there's a part of me that always wants to yearn and strive for more.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Like, when I wake up in the morning, I'm like, cool, this is what I wanna do. I can see how to get there, but in order to get there, I need to also be extremely present. More than ever, I think I've always looked towards the future, not much to the past. So I think now I try to try my best of one, feeling vulnerable again. That feels very nice. It's a really nice feeling to go into situations where people don't know you. Or, you know, you're doing something, you're like, oh, this is different. I'm being, gonna be judged.

• 34:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  In this thing, where you don't have the comfort of going out to your home audience. You know, doing the world tour was like, oh, okay, going to Finland. I don't know who's coming. They don't speak English as their first language.

• 35:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Uh, let's see how it goes.

• 35:04Fearne Cotton?

  Do you tweak the humour for those global shows? Is that important to kind of cater to that audience? Or you just hope they jump on board with what you're doing?

• 35:11Speaker 02

  You know, eh, when I first done the tour, cause we done in the States. I was like, okay, let's, let's try to slow it down a little bit and they can understand it. And I never forget, I done a show in L A. Some of my friends who came, they're, they're comics. Guy called Willie Mack, um, and Danny Plume, they're, they're from L A. And I had this part about, I was, oh, you know, when you travel, it's very annoying if you're on a plane for too long. It's some, you know, it's, oh, you have to always cream, always creaming your skin. How annoying, and creaming your skin. And it wasn't getting a laugh. And I was like, this people was going down in London, man. I don't understand what's going on. I'm like, what's happening, man? So, you know, as a comic, you just carry on. And they came backstage and I was like, yeah, man, um, you know, you said that, that bit about creaming?

• 35:54Speaker 02

  I was like, yeah, that don't mean what you think it means here. I said, oh, they said, you wanna say lotion.

• 36:02Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, lotion.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  I said, oh, I said, what does creaming mean? They said, cream. I said, okay, all right.

• 36:09Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  That's what it means.

• 36:10Fearne Cotton?

  So they think you're wanking on a plane?

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's why it wasn't getting a laugh. And I'm sitting there like, what's wrong with you guys, man? You guys don't know comedy. And they're like, you, you dirty man.

• 36:23Fearne Cotton?

  You strange man. And you're wiping it on, on your arms? Is this what you're saying?

• 36:29Speaker 02

  I said, okay, all right, I, I get it.

• 36:31Fearne Cotton?

  You're gonna rewrite that bit.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I rewrote it to lotioning. And then it gets the laugh I was looking for. So I think I knew I had to tweak some things just so they can understand me. But as we started doing the tour and I started meeting people, because I'd always do a meet and greet. And the audience would either filled with a lot of Brits that lived in America or Australia or whatever part of the world it was. And the other half was people that was from whatever country we was in or city we was in. And they were like, yeah, like I've seen your stuff on Netflix and I can't believe you came here. And I love your type of humour. And that was my kind of, that just gave me the kind of thing to say, okay, cool. Let me just keep it how it is. I don't need to change it. Maybe tweak parts of words that they don't understand as much.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  But yeah, you know, going to places like Denmark and I was like, are they gonna get this bit? And I'd say, and I'm like, oh, they get, they get it. I don't think you get that.

• 37:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  And I think, um, yeah, putting myself in that vulnerable place of going to places that. I was like, I don't know if anyone really watches my stuff here. Some places I would know, Toronto, um, New York, but going to, you know, Denmark or Paris, I was like, uh, are they gonna?

• 37:41Fearne Cotton?

  Such a good challenge.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a great challenge, but it's nice to feel vulnerable. It's easy, not, it's not, I can't say it's easy, but to, to feel, I can get comfortable. And just say, well, I'm just gonna play in the UK because that's where my audience is. But to take it to places where I was like, I don't know if anyone's even gonna come.

• 37:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  And I, I would never ask, I wouldn't say, oh, what's the ticket sales like or how many people are coming? Sometimes we would get there and it would exceed my expectations. And other times we'd get there and be like, oh, okay, cool, there's, there's only a hundred people. And then 10 minutes into the show, you've got another influx of another hundred people that they're just running late. And you're like, oh, all right, there's, there's a lot of people here tonight. Um, so yeah, going back to the vulnerability and being in the present. I think makes me yearn for more, but also stay more grounded.

• 38:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, it's good that you're juggling both, I think, putting yourself in that position where you don't know if you're gonna get a laugh or be accepted immediately like you are on UK soil. It's, that's a really healthy thing to do. What else do you think is driving that desire to have that ascent? I've thought about this so much over the years and I'm writing a book at the moment and I'm sort of. Thinking about it myself, because I, I think back in the day, like when I was a presenter exclusively, all I wanted to do is be the biggest presenter. Like, how can I be like Ant and Dec? That's all I gave a shit about. And just climbing the ladder and hoping that you'd somehow get there one day. Whereas I think I'm much less bothered about that. And I don't know if it's age, or I mean, I'm not really presenting anymore.

• 39:15Fearne Cotton?

  But even with what I'm doing with Happy Place, like, do I want it to be the biggest global thing? I don't actually know if I do. I want it to keep working because I like doing it. And I would hate for it to stop because I would have no clue what else to do. So I want there to be momentum. I certainly want to feel challenged and like I'm constantly learning. But I don't know if I yearn for that, it's gotta be the biggest in the world. What do you think is driving that sense? You know, sometimes it's not always a positive. Sometimes it's, you know, for me, even now, if I feel, you know, oh, I'm not doing well enough in this area. It, it could come from a place of because I feel like shit about myself.

• 39:58Fearne Cotton?

  Or because I didn't go to uni and I feel stupid, so I need to prove to everyone else that I'm not. You know, it can come from a place of lacking. What, what do you think the balance is for you? Like, what is that drive?

• 40:09Speaker 02

  I think for me, the drive is, very early on, I kept having these pinch myself moments. That I'd, you know, I had it at the Brits where we had a break. And when you go to the Brits, they have a huge screen and they have a countdown for when they have a break. So it's a break, guys, but we're gonna start again. And you have this countdown and it goes from five minutes to zero. And I never forget, I, I remember it very vividly of standing in the middle. It's, I came over and we start again. And I was standing there and everyone's doing what they're doing, talking. It's just me standing there in the O2 looking around. And I was like, oh, this is absolutely mental. And I had this real nice pinch myself moment. I didn't physically do it, but I was like, oh, wow, okay. This is where we're at right now in life. This is, this is life right now.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  And just look what I'm doing and look the people I'm around and look what I've been able to go from one place to another. And I think that's what keeps me wanting to do what I'm able to do, but also just to achieve more. Whether it's those pinch myself moments, you know, like we were saying before, going on a red carpet and being in front of the PAPs and you're like, oh, this is nice. And I've had that a few times where it's like, okay, let's just. Take it in, you know, and I have a few of those moments and I really enjoy those moments because it lets you know what you're sometimes doing it for, you know, and whether that is, you know, writing a book or being on stage or sometimes it's me- meeting people that come to the show and they say something that just

• 41:39Speaker 02

  touches your soul and you know, they say, oh my god, I was so depressed and I watched your special and it it really cheered me up. So I made sure I I came by myself and it, I sit there and I'm like, oh, this is why we do it, you know. Um, and I think that's why I always wanna keep achieving more, wherever it will take me, but I kinda do it for that a little bit. Um, I also do it for a lot of the people that also support my stuff. I think the people I've been able to connect with that have come to my shows or watch television shows. It's easy for me to sometimes forget. You know, until someone comes to a show of mine in, I don't know, maybe New York and they're like, hey, man, can you sign my book? And I'm like, oh.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Ra, uh, you read the book? I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, of course. I was like, it's like, yeah, can you put this this book, man? I I recommend it to everyone. And it's that, again, for me, it's a pinch myself moment, but then for them is how they've connected with me that come sometimes puts it all into reality of like what you kinda do it for and just knowing that when it's hard, there's someone I don't even know who I've never even met that just supports me. And I feel like I kinda wanna do it for them a little bit as well, you know, whether it's the book or the television show or the podcast or whatever it could be. I don't know. It's just like, wow, you kinda put your faith into me just to watch my thing. When we can all sit there and sometimes be like, oh, didn't like that, or I can't believe what I looked like in that.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  And they're just like, hey, man, I really loved it, man. I was in a hospital bed and I'd done something to my knee, but I really enjoyed that thing. You're like, oh. Okay, yeah, it it just puts it all into perspective and.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  I think for us, we will always seek out escapism that kind of disconnects us to the reality of what we do as a job sometimes, where we look for those normal things. I like gardening, for example.

• 43:27Fearne Cotton?

  Do you?

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, just planting here and there. My gardener will listen to this.

• 43:31Fearne Cotton?

  Little flowers, or are they vegetables?

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, sometimes, yeah, just little flowers here and there.

• 43:34Fearne Cotton?

  I've not got to that bit yet. I'm hoping that comes for me.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, don't get me wrong, my gardener will listen to this and he's like, I, I do everything.

• 43:40Fearne Cotton?

  I'll tell you where to put them.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like, every now and then, I go to the garden centre and I like to just plant a little bulb here.

• 43:47Fearne Cotton?

  You need the mundane to balance it out.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's that escapism and I forget that someone, someone else's escapism is, is listening or watching or coming to the thing that I do. So, oh, it's, it's kind of like feeding the same ecosystem um, in some ways. And I think that's, that drives me to want to do more.

• 44:06Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  In, in some, in some aspects, they are bigger things. But there are, I think that's also sometimes how some people can view it. Where, you know, sometimes I can do something, I'm like, oh, that was cool. And everyone's like, oh, I just seen you do this. And I'm like, oh, I didn't, I didn't judge it as that thing, but hey, go for it, man, yeah. But also, I think now I'm at a place where, like, I have to kind of, I don't know, I used to kind of reject those things. Oh, you know, I'm just, I'm just trying, man, you know, just getting along, man. Well, I'm like, you know, sometimes I've got to say to myself, no, no, man, you're doing more for yourself, man.

• 44:37Fearne Cotton?

  You can take yourself on the back. Like, none of us do that. None of us stop to celebrate anything. From the tiny to the big, we're just like, whatever. It's a very, like, British

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:47Fearne Cotton?

  mindset of like, hmm, wasn't a big deal, like, not a thing. Whereas actually, we should be going, oh my god, I did good there. Like, that went well. We're allowed to do it. We're so bad at it.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I, I think it's a thing, it's, it's interesting, going over across to the pond where they, you know, they'll be like, yeah, man.

• 45:04Fearne Cotton?

  They're celebrating all of it.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Oh, my god, like, I done that film, it's one of my best films ever, you've got to check it out. And you're like, oh, okay, I, I believe you. And I think, you know, being able to go over there and see how they work is also been quite interesting for me in some ways, where you're like, oh, okay, that's how you guys are in a room. But also, it's so different to, you know, when I get in a room and they're like, so, what are you working on? I'm like, Yeah, man, it's got a comedy show next month and yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, great, man. Where's your show? I might come down. I'm like, oh, it's like the O2. What? Oh, my God, that's insane. You're like, yeah, you know.

• 45:37Fearne Cotton?

  I know. We're not very good at self-promotion in this country. But saying that, to do what you do at the level that you do it, you don't, you have to obviously have an immense skill set and learn your craft and do years and years of practice. And obviously naturally be funny, like they are, they are absolute definites. But you also, because it is such a niche gig, like if you were at, you know, school, seeing one of those careers advisors and said, I want to be a stand-up. They'd be like, eye rolling. Okay, we're going to apply you to work in a local community hall. You know, it would, they would never, you know, be up for you walking down that path.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:14Fearne Cotton?

  It's so, so niche. You have to have, I would say, a healthy dose of inner self-belief to be able to stick to that path. Because you're going to get knockbacks. You're going to do gigs where nobody laughs and you are thinking, why am I doing this? I should never have chosen this career path. Would you say that self-belief has been consistent? Have there been dips where you've thought, actually, I can't take this anymore? Because it's quite brutal being a stand-up comedian.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's brutal, man. You take a lot of bruises to the soul and ego when you do stand-up comedy. Because the, the, the more successful you get, you do have a little bit of ego where you're like, yeah, man, I've, I've done a bit now. You know, I could walk into that crowd and anything I say, they'd probably laugh at. And then when they don't, you're like, ooh, what's going on here?

• 47:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  But then there's also parts where you are up and coming and you've done a really good show. And someone can come on after you who's a bit more well-known and you're like, oh, you laugh at me, like you laugh at him. And that, and I think that's just the balance of before, you know, you might get to a place of where you want to get to a place to. But yeah, you need to have a level of self-belief in yourself to know that. I think for myself, I've always known that I'm funny. And I can make people laugh. Before I ever done stand up, I was like, oh, I'm funny. My friends would say, you should do stand up. I'm like, yeah, but that's a different level of funny. So I also knew the types of funny, because there's a funny with your friends. And then there's like, I'm on stage and the lights are hot and the mic is loud.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  And when I mean, the the the lights are brighter than ever when you first go on stage. And the silence is quieter than you could imagine. So you just know that anything that comes out my mouth now has to equate to a laugh now in some way. And it is very soul destroying. It's like, you know, you do it when you first start out. It is the make or break, whether you wanna stick to it or you don't. I think for myself. I always knew I was funny. It was the one thing I was like, I'm good at this. Once I started trying to craft, okay, I've got this part about myself and. I've got this and I'm gonna angle it to that and let's try and put a little punchline in there and see how that works. Um, once I really started crafting and architecting like what I thought comedy was.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Then it started to feel more fun. But you need to have, yeah, there's a level of self-belief. And I I really enjoy, believe it or not, going to open mic nights and just watching. Because it takes me back to, ah, I remember what that was like. You can see someone here, oh, you you've got it. You're really funny. Yeah. Like, it will take time, though. It's okay. But one thing I would say to comics or. You know, anyone, I meet a lot of young people and I wanna do this. And I'm just like, be consistent. Like, you'll have good days, you'll have bad days at any level you're at. You know, whether you're at a level doing arenas or you're just at a level doing open mics. It's just having the consistency. But even for myself, I think once I got into the realm of doing a little bit more television. I was like, eh, I don't know, man, comedy, like.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Because I was on such a nice steady run of doing my own show and then being a presenter on another show and. I remember doing this show, uh, I think it was twenty twenty two at improv in um, in L A. And I with my, we, me and my friends were at it for holiday. And it was the best holiday ever, just me and my close friends. And I was like, we had a nice house in the hills. Nice. We all rented a car out. It was the best holiday ever. And um my agency out in in the States, C A A, was like, hey Mo, um we managed to get you a gig if you wanna do some stand up. And I was like, I ain't done comedy in a while. But I was like, I'm on this high of just doing T V right now.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  And yeah, you know, jump on stage. And it was so humbling because one, I was completely in a different part of the world. Um, but my mindset just wasn't there. I just.

• 50:08Fearne Cotton?

  You're in holiday mindset. You're in like, I'm wearing shorts, walking around in the sunshine.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  I'd never forget. And the the show went okay. It went okay. But there was the realisation of coming off stage and was like, Mo, man, this is the thing that really got you here. Don't think because you you're doing a little bit of T V now that it's all set and done. You have a lot more to do. And it it really started changing my my my thought process to what I'm able to do. It was a nice kind of wake up call. Even though I was on holiday and and we went to the beach earlier in the day and we got one of these massive jugs and we put so much alcohol in it that ev- everyone was like, oh, I'm hanging, man. And then there's me being like, all right, uh.

• 50:49Fearne Cotton?

  You got a bit of sunstroke.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Okay, all right. So I'm gonna go out there, do a bit of crowd work. Where's everyone from? I'm like, ew, this is not gonna work, is it? You're in L A.

• 51:00Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no. Are you forgiving of yourself after stuff like that? Or do you beat yourself up a bit?

• 51:05Speaker 02

  It's a mixture of both because there's sometimes I'm like, okay, well, I'm on holiday. You know, it's not my best set. Luckily, no one really knows me here.

• 51:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Um, it would have been worse if I'd probably been in the U K because then you're like, oh, God, he's not, he's not very funny in real life, is he? Um, but then there's also times where I'm like, it's like I said, I was like, yeah, Mo, man, this is the thing that got you here. Stand up is is is the thing that's your, the thing that you love is your bread and butter. You can't just be like, I'm doing this television thing. It's okay. It pays all right now. I'm with my friends. You're like, because again, it can change in an instant with television. You're not in control of it. There's so many parts to the puzzle. Whereas stand up, I've always been in control of my destiny of doing stand up where if I write more and I go to the clubs and I try new stuff out, I can say, oh, cool, I can piece this together for an hour. I can make this a twenty minutes. That's not good. Let's.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Whereas television, you you don't get that um that same comfort.

• 52:03Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  So um I had to be quite hard on myself of like, okay, cool, let's. Let's breathe, let's take a minute, let's get back to the drawing board.

• 52:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so rather than beat yourself up, you're like, there is a lesson in this, I'm gonna take heed of it and we'll see where it takes me.

• 52:20Speaker 05

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• 53:56Fearne Cotton?

  I Instagrammed about this the other day. I listened to your podcast with Jamie Lang and I was laughing. I was, I was out walking. I was laughing out loud in the park, like in a forest. Like, people are gonna think I've lost my mind. I was howling at the storytelling and it was just such a joy. But one thing that you talked about was going to therapy.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:15Fearne Cotton?

  And, um, I mean, I'm big on therapy. I go every week. I do not miss it. It's totally changed my life. What took you there in the first place?

• 54:23Speaker 02

  I think for me, I never, and I've said it a few times before, because I was always seeing the funny in everything, I needed a place that I could open up and be like, I feel really down. I feel really upset. I wanna cry, but nothing's coming out. And when I leave this place, I can't, because I'm, you know, people know me as Mo Gilligan. So I can't really express to anyone that I also wanted someone to just, a part of me was just listen. I think my perception of therapy was what I'd always seen in the film of someone in a lounge chair falling ball up and down. Do you know what I mean?

• 55:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Um, and also from films I like, I, I, one of my favorite films is The Mask and how he goes to therapy and.

• 55:05Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  He, he kinda connects to it, but he's like, yeah, but I'm this person, but I'm not. And, um. So I think for myself, just realizing I had a lot of, um, I'd say built up trauma. That I never got to express anywhere. I didn't wanna do it on stage because I felt, well. Yeah, let me talk about going out and especially the age I was at and where my peers are. I don't think they was ready to listen to someone say, oh, I go to therapy and this is where I'm at. It was a stage in my career where people like, yeah, like, we know you as this character that you do online and we've seen this, we kinda wanna hear about that. So going to therapy for me was, yeah, it was that, I'm, I, I remember going and I was like, okay, here we go.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Let's, let's unload all of this trauma. And it's starting with a session that was like. Oh, so, um, how did you get here today? And I'm like, forget that. I'm gonna need to tell you about the trauma, man. We're on the clock, man. But then as I started going, I started understanding myself a little bit more.

• 56:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  You know, I get to, I go to therapy now. My therapist, she would say, okay, before we start, just stop. Just breathe, feel the weight of the chair you're in and. You know, and she, sometimes she would say, we, we will follow on from what we spoke about last time. And other times she would say, how do you feel in yourself right now? What do you wanna speak about or? You've never spoken about this and I feel like it's been able to unlock different parts of. Um, my brain and my feelings that I've never been able to connect with in in any other way. And I think that's the one thing I've always got a lot from therapy. You know, sometimes you go to therapy and you're like, oh, I am a brand new person. Oh, my god. Hey, how are you? Oh, my god, I'm fine. Are you fine?

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Let me, let me, if you're fine, you might not be fine. And sometimes I leave and I'm like, I've got nothing out of that.

• 56:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you think you haven't, but then maybe a couple of days in, you're like, oh, I get it. Do you think, um, I mean, okay, well, I'll tell you how, what I feel and see if it resonates. But when I first started therapy, or sometimes even now, I find it really hard to do that bit where I'm like in the chair, feeling the chair in the room, because A, I'm used to putting a bit of a mask on, because I'm in this setting where there's cameras or there's people that I don't know very well and I've got a job to do. And I can't be maybe as, sometimes when I'm on my own, I'm like very, very quiet, shy. I don't want to see anyone, talk to anyone, and this job is the opposite.

• 57:38Fearne Cotton?

  So I'm good at clicking into, right, and this is what I want to say to you and I know how to articulate it. So I, I find it hard to lose that and just to sort of get into the feeling bit. But I think also, when you were saying a minute ago about not crying, like not letting yourself feel those big emotions. I think this job has again impacted me negatively in that way. Because first of all, you know, there is, there is always a certain amount of maybe backlash or commentary around. Well, first of all, I feel very lucky to go to therapy, but people in the public eye where it's like, what have you got to moan about? You've got a fucking great life. Why are you going to therapy?

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 58:15Fearne Cotton?

  And I took that on board, like, yeah, I've got nothing to moan about. I'm fine. And I, I know I wasn't fine. Clearly, I wasn't fine. But I took that so on board, like, don't feel any of it. Just be grateful and plow on. And actually, that is not healthy, just to ignore it and suppress it. Do you think the job has stopped you getting in touch with those feelings? Or does this predate your showbiz life?

• 58:42Speaker 02

  I think some of it definitely carries from my past before I got to do any of this stuff. And even before I got to do stand up, where as a young black boy growing up in South London. You had to know when you walk out of your house, you kinda have to put a front on in some ways. Um, all I liked to do was playing football and I just liked doing performing arts. That was the thing that I liked doing. Um, so again, like I grew up in an environment where I had to put a front on in some ways and you're like, yeah, like, you know, like, probably not gonna make it pro, but like, I like acting. But you can't really go into depth, you know, you can't be like, yeah, so there's this this technique by Stanislawski and

• 59:22Speaker 02

  no one's connecting with me in that in that way. So when I come home, I had to, you know, box that all up as well. You know, being the youngest as well, um, I had to kind of box that up in some ways and especially as a teenager, you're just like, you kind of get into your routine called play computer games, might go out, you don't have much money. Um, and look, I I'm, I always see it from a point of view where I was quite fortunate enough that I never got involved in anything crazy when I was growing up, do you know what I mean? It wasn't about that life, if I'm completely honest. Like, I am very ticklish. I am very silly and like, no one would want me to go on a ride out because they're like, yeah, you just know about that life.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  And I just like making people laugh as well. So and and I used to like football at at that time as well. So I think there was a lot in terms of you you don't, you're not, I don't know, you're just not able to express yourself in a way that now it feels very normal, the older you get, to sit with a friend and say, hey, man, can I speak to you about this thing? Whereas I think when you're in your teens, especially when you go into your early twenties and everyone's cracking on with life and before you know it, you're like, oh, you're you're doing that, you've got a job and you're all saving up for cabos, I must go to cabos too. The fear of FOMO in your twenties is one of the most horrible things I think I've ever experienced, um, of like, ah, I feel like I'm missing out, I didn't go, but I've seen.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  And then social media just kind of started where it was kind of Facebook, the Facebook era of, oh, everyone's getting tagged in pictures. Oh, man, I I wanna go, man, I wanna be on a moped in Irapu too.

• 1:01:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Um, and I think all of that boxed in of wanting to do this thing that is stand up and no one ever viewing it is like, it's not really a real thing, is it? Kind of a hobby um and also I think my family didn't understand. I feel like um parents now are a bit more open to the world of. The creative arts in some ways, you can see the the the journey and the formula some way, so you can see it, oh, I've seen this. Yeah, I've seen this person go from that and he's in that, he's in a film, oh, I get it, you've got to go drama school. Whereas I was at college and I was like, I want to do performing arts and I'm like, oh, cool, that's all right. Yeah, you you want to do, as long as you're not in trouble, I I don't mind.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  So again, there's no one, you know, when you have bad days also at college or university, there's. There's no one I could ever speak to that could understand how I felt in that moment. So I had to cope with a lot of stuff myself, you know, uni was a big one where. We had to do this performance technique, I'll never forget it, it was called Commedia dell'arte, so you had to perform with a mask. So you know, there's like really like eloquent like leather masks and they've got like a a a peak of like.

• 1:02:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah, they're wearing them at like the Venice Mask Festival or something, yeah.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's an art form called Commedia dell'arte, we had a guy come in. Teaching everyone, I got made one of the leads in the plays, I was like, all right, cool. And this guy had come in, this Italian guy, and I was trying my best. Cause you have to be up with your body and you have to use, you know, the the mask is what's acting, but it's you using your body movements. A bit like how, you know, the dance form clowning is kind of crumping, it's a bit like that. So you're gonna have to use your body and I was learning the lines, but cause I'm dyslexic, I'm really, I really struggle with. Um, learning a script, I can retain it once I've done it a few times, cause it becomes muscle memory. But like reading it for the first time and then doing it, I was like, oh, I'm really struggling and I've got this part and this guy.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Never forget, he goes, ah, you know, this is not very good, you're not very good, and he would say it out in front of everyone. And I was like, I've never experienced this before, never experienced someone just saying to my face, you're not good. And I'll never forget, every day, we was doing rehearsals. As soon as rehearsals are finished, I will go to central London, I just got my student loan at the time. I'd go shopping. That was my thing. I was like, I'm gonna go Foot Locker, buy some trainings, go to this shop and buy some other stuff. Every day I was doing it, back to back, back to back. And then we'd done our performance. And, you know, everyone's bowing on stage. He comes on stage. We do the whole, oh, you know, this is the guy who's come all the way from Italy.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  And he took a bow. And I was like, you know what, Mo? And I can't, I cannot stand this guy. And I said, you know what, Mo, like, let's just put that to one side, because I've learnt something. He put me in a vulnerable place I've never been in. And I was like, hey, man, I just wanted to say, like, I found it really difficult, but thank you so much for pushing me. And never forget, he said to me, he was like, yes, but still, you're not very good. And this was like, as people are clapping and my whole energy sunk. I felt like bursting out in tears. And everyone was like, hey, you know, after, you know, actors and, hey, man, well done, like, you're so good, man. People had flowers for their loved ones when they come to the show. And I remember also, because what I was doing, when I was doing like performing arts at the time,

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  um, to say to my friends, hey, guys, I've got this play or comedian, you guys wanna come and support? Um, I knew my friends didn't really wanna come, so I didn't really ever wanna invite them. I knew my mum didn't really understand some of the things I was doing. So then afterwards, like, everyone's got their family and friends, they have a bunch of flowers. And I've had this guy say to me, I'm not very good. I felt like the earth had swallowed me up and I was just like, phew. But then, I wanted, I remember wanting to cry. I really wanted to cry and burst out in tears. But I couldn't because everyone knew me as like funny Mo. And, oh, Mo, you're funny, man. Yeah, he was the lead and I had to box this up. So, I think by the time then I did get to therapy, I had so much stuff boxed up and just, and that's just a small incident.

• 1:05:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but those things stay with you. Like, I'm sure everyone listening to this, and I'm thinking of about a million as you're talking, little things dotted through childhood and the teen years where one person has said something to you, a passing comment that he's probably never thought about ever again, and it's, it is stuck. It stays with you. And it can be a driving force for either you pushing and pushing and wanting to succeed more or giving up on the other side of the coin, you know, it, this shit stays with you.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it, it always stuck with me in a way that. When I look at past behaviours of, you know, I remember when I started doing social media and then Channel Four were like, hey, we're gonna give you a show. I walked around, I walked from Victoria just around central London. I never figured I just walked. It's like a very overcast day. I kept on walking. Knowing that my life would change, but at the same time, thinking, oh, what are people gonna think? Like, are they gonna like the show? Is it not? And um but just realising I was, as much as I just had news that was very good.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  I kind of took it and transferred it into bad news of like, ah, but my life's gonna change and I don't know. And again, I just went walking around central London into a lot of shops. Never been in. And then the same habit happened again where I just started shopping um because it feeds that quick dopamine of like, let me buy something. And yeah, for a long time, that was a big habit of, yeah, okay, cool. All right. I've had bad news. So it's fine. But I'll just buy a thing, something I've always wanted. Um and yeah, it just, it just carries on. And I think. Going to therapy has allowed me to see the flaws in myself, kind of confront them, but also challenge myself of like, okay, cool.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  That's how I feel. Um I don't really like confrontation as well. So realising I'm like, ah, sometimes we need to be a bit confrontational. And probably in the last like five years, you know, I've sat and I've been like, sorry, excuse me, can you stop banging my chair? Like, do you know what I mean? And I feel like, yeah, I felt good, man. I felt good about that.

• 1:07:11Fearne Cotton?

  Whereas before you'd just be seething internally, passive aggressive anger, boiling point.

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. So I feel like I ha- I think that's what therapy has allowed me to do.

• 1:07:22Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  Um and allowed for me is is challenge myself, um look at my flaws, but also correct them, but also.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  For myself, being like, hey, man, I've I've got work to do, but also it's all right. Like, you know, if sometimes you wanna become confrontational, that's okay. Sometimes it's okay to take a step back and say, you know what, and say something, but it's not worth it right now. And that's also okay. So I think that's what I've kinda enjoyed about going to therapy. I I let um Mosiah have his time, because everyone knows me as like Mo Gilligan. My full name is Mosiah. So I sit there, I'm like, ah, this is Mosiah's time.

• 1:08:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  Let's reconnect with who this person is.

• 1:08:04Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. I love that. Mo, to finish.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:08Fearne Cotton?

  Where is your happy place?

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Oh, my happy place, um, it's probably on a sunny day in my garden.

• 1:08:18Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's in my garden. I think that's probably my happy place. I sat there the other day of a coffee and the sun was just blazing in my face and I was just like, oh, this is. And I got the birds singing and stuff like that. So I think that's probably my my true happy place. We were speaking about home before, but I think, yeah, just in my garden. And, you know, it's lucky enough to have a garden in London in general, but that's the one place, especially when the grass is cut.

• 1:08:49Fearne Cotton?

  That smell.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I do kick ups, I do some kick ups in the garden and it's just like, ah, this is fun, man. Yeah, I can I can do whatever I want in here. And I realise I'm like, oh, I think my neighbours are looking at me. Let's stop. But, yeah, I'd I'd probably say my my garden, yeah.

• 1:09:04Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I'm absolutely buzzing for these O two shows for you.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:09:09Fearne Cotton?

  I bet it's gonna feel so amazing walking out on that stage and the audience are gonna have an absolute blast. And good luck with the continued success of your podcast and everything you're doing is just fucking impressive. And um and you've given me so much joy over the years, whether it's watching your singer or listening to your podcast. It's like, I just, it's just been a joy. So thank you, Mo.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  No, thank you. Thanks for having me on the pod, man. And honestly, Fern, like, I know we haven't met, but I feel like I've known you. For such a long time, but your voices, your voices are very calm and chill. I feel like I could chat to you for another three hours, man.

• 1:09:41Fearne Cotton?

  We could. This is always the problem with these podcasts. I love it because it's long form. It's not long enough.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:46Fearne Cotton?

  We could keep talking for days.

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, but no, you, I think what you do is sensational. The way that you've been able to go from television and you do podcasting and, you know, but you're also like, you know, you're, you're, you're a mum as well and you have to juggle so much stuff that you make it look better. I know you, you make it look very effortless, but you're very, very good at what you do. Do you know what I mean? As a broadcaster, but just as a person. So yeah, thanks for having me on the pod, man. I appreciate that.

• 1:10:10Fearne Cotton?

  And best cardigan we've ever had on the podcast.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Oh, love, man. I get a lot of compliments in his cardigan, you know? Yeah.

• 1:10:17Fearne Cotton?

  I've got so much time for Mo hair. Mo with his mo hair. It's the best.

• 1:10:24Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Mo, thank you so much. First of all, I really want that cardigan. I mean, I might, I wish they had done what Zayn from One Direction did. Zayn Malik and just left it for me. I didn't hint heavily enough, clearly. But I loved that. I just absolutely loved getting stuck into the mindset of a comedian. How you cope with audiences that big, his sort of sense of ambition is all utterly fascinating. Mo's new podcast, Mo Gilligan, Beginning, Middle and End, is out now, wherever you like to listen to your podcasts. What did you make of this podcast episode with Mo? It's all getting a bit meta, isn't it? But let's carry on chatting about this on Instagram.

• 1:11:04Fearne Cotton?

  At Happy Place Official during the week, that's where you'll find us. And by the way, there'll be a link to an episode in the show notes called, How to Laugh When You've Been to Hell and Back. It's a load of different Happy Place guests chatting about using humour as an emotional release. I think that you're going to really like it if you liked this episode. All right, until next week. Again, a huge thank you to the brilliant Mo, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you because you are ace.

• 1:12:01Speaker 10

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  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.